Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[amandawoods]

I think Tyrion will be in love or is already in love with Dany soon.  Linking it up to the books, maybe Tyrion going to be the person who betrays her because of love?  I'm not even sure what that would entail.  

Also, based on Arya saying that she would like to see what's west of westeros, I do think she is going to end up alive but away from her family in the end.  Also, Jamie saying that he's going to die in the arms of the woman he loves.  It has to be Jamie fighting alongside Brienne with the white walkers.  I really want Jamie and Brienne to both be involved in the fight.  

[Audreythe2nd]

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That's actually one of the most interesting things to me. How many of the seemingly odd adaptational choices they made (such as making SanSan non-existent or doing away with most of Sansa's Vale plotline or Jaime STILL not breaking from Cersei or excising fAegon entirely) are just them playing fast and loose because of their own story interests and how much is due to their knowledge of how the story ends and not wanting to waste limited screen time on things that don't go anywhere?

It is interesting, but I wouldn't loop all of those things into the same category.

Aegon was likely the thing that was excised because it doesn't go anywhere.

Sansa's Vale plotline was cut probably because it's boring and she ends up in the North with Littlefinger anyway, and not entirely out of his scope of influence (as evidenced by what happened at the end of Season 6).

SanSan definitely still have a bit of a connection in the show, but the romance part of it is likely not necessary. They are certainly destined to meet again though.

Jaime still not breaking from Cersei is likely an interesting pacing, timing, and substitution decision. Based on his facial expression during the season finale, "now it begins." They seem to have really wanted to substitute the reason for his break (from infidelity to burning stuff and being responsible for the death of their last child). I expect Jaime's storyline to progress at essentially lightning speed next season.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

First no one knew but Sam, second authority hasn't broken down this is a case of Arya taking (wrongfully )the law into her own hands.

Do you really think anybody in authority in Westeros was going to send men over to Braavos to hunt down a missing NW bard?

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I think Sansa and Arya will have some tension to it; last time Arya saw Sansa she was standing by Cersei ( and smiling )as her father lost his head.

Whatever issues Sansa and Arya may have to hash out, that's not going to be one of them. Arya heard Sansa screaming after the order was given, and she thinks of Sansa fondly (albeit grudgingly, at times, which I always find amusing in both cases) on several occasions afterward.

[screamin]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

Do you really think anybody in authority in Westeros was going to send men over to Braavos to hunt down a missing NW bard?

If Arya's so bent on strictly following the laws of Westeros, she's kind of morally obligated to put the sword in the chest of her boss, the Faceless Man. By Westerosi standards she's working for coldblooded murderers. The fact that she's fine with working with them but decides she wants to kill the NW deserter is Arya picking and choosing who she wants to kill for her own reasons - not the interest of justice.

So to me, her deciding that the Faceless Men killing people whose innocence or guilt is immaterial for fun and profit is Totes Okay - but dammit, she'll kill that filthy deserter! - is a marker in Arya's moral descent.

Edited July 15, 2016 by screamin

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

Whatever issues Sansa and Arya may have to hash out, that's not going to be one of them. Arya heard Sansa screaming after the order was given, and she thinks of Sansa fondly (albeit grudgingly, at times, which I always find amusing in both cases) on several occasions afterward.

By that time she was already in Yoran's embrace, with a screaming crowd surrounding them and Yoren yelling in her ear, she didn't hear Sansa scream, but she did hear Joffery say Sansa pleaded for her father's life and Cersei wanting to send Ned to the wall so yeah it may not be that.

If they don't do anything stupid they should relies it's basic sibling squabbles, but what GRRM said still stands, maybe it's how to end their enemies or it's over LF. 

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

Do you really think anybody in authority in Westeros was going to send men over to Braavos to hunt down a missing NW bard?

Ned never sent anyone after Jorah and all Westeros knew he sold to slavers a crime also punishable by death, so unless the singer went back on Westerosi soil he was should have been able to live until such a time that he was officially declared a deserter.

The only one close to that authority was Sam and he had more pressing matters.

I state again Arya over stepped her bounds, it's one of the few times I disagree with a decision  she's made.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

By that time she was already in Yoran's embrace, with a screaming crowd surrounding them and Yoren yelling in her ear, she didn't hear Sansa scream

Yes, she did:

Quote

Dimly, as if from far off, Arya heard her sister scream.  Sanas had fallen to her knees, sobbing hysterically.

...

She could still hear Sansa screaming.

[OhOkayWhat]

If it was not clear with the death of Meryn Trant (or way before that with other events in her life), with the death of the Frey men it is clear now that something is very wrong inside Arya mind.

UnJaquen told her she was No One and I said that he knew she was not and that is precisely the reason he said that: to make her to say: "I am Arya Stark of Winterfell".... but I made the same mistake that I tell other commenters they should avoid: never forget it is an ongoing story. And after the last episode now I am thinking that Arya is actually No One....and she also is Arya Stark.

Maybe being No One is not a constant state of mind, maybe she reaches that state under some circumstances that she cannot control.

Darkness/Death/Violence is eating her from inside, and if she wants to recover control over herself she needs to reject the Darkness/Death/Violence but I am not sure if she is aware there is a big problem growing inside her.

Edited July 15, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Hecate7]

On 7/9/2016 at 3:30 PM, glowbug said:

If Dany does bare a living child in the books then it's pretty certain she will not be naming Jon as her heir thereby passing over her own child. It's of course possible the show will have her remain infertile and name Jon as her heir.

It's more likely that the living child she bears will be Jon Snow's. It is illegal to depict the baring of a living child unless there's a bath involved.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Hecate7

[Advance35]

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The reason I don't hear much beyond resignation to the inevitable with regards to Jon/Dany is precisely because it doesn't feel earned; they've had struggles to overcome, but they're not struggling with each other (in both senses of the term) and it plays against most people's fundamental life experiences... that perfect things/easy answers just fall into our laps without having to fight for them* at all (the same reason Lord Rickon of Winterfell was never going to happen because it was the easy answer to resolving the struggle for power in the North).

* i.e. Fighting existential threats like the Army of the Dead do not count... the struggle has to relate to what is being fought for. So Tyrion would have to fight to get Dany to see him as worthy of a marriage while Dany would have to fight her own perceptions of what would make an ideal husband. Jon would have to fight his own inclination to see Sansa as someone to be protected instead a partner whose advise is to be valued while Sansa would have to fight her trust issues so she can open up to Jon. Jon and Dany meeting up, having the hots for each other and then going and blowing the crap out of Ice Zombies with dragons like some Battle Couple is NOT having to fight for their relationship.

I agree in a way.  The kind of "divine right" inherent in both of the Dany and Jon narratives has caused me to develop an aversion to both characters.  I think it's something we may see more in Dany's narrative then Jon's so my disinterest in her character is more pronounced.   And Jon has the benefit of interacting with developed, interesting and pivotal characters themselves, Sansa, Littlefinger, Davos, Melissandre and Stannis.  I LOVE PD and Tyrion but he was not enough to save Mereen as a plot.  

I believe the producers said that they scripted a scene for Season 7 that was supposed to be a 4 person scene in the Throne Room but ended up turning into a parade so I assume Dany won't face anymore trouble getting to Westeros and the masses will be thrilled that she's arrived and saved them all from Cersei.   She'll decide to treat with the North when they don't answer her call for fealty and she and Jon Snow will see each other and BOW.  Like out of a 60's Disney film, love at first sight.  I have resigned myself to this as well because I have to wonder if the show actually has time for anything else.  They'll fly dragons and fight zombies and yada yada yada.  There are some shows where the stars or main characters are the most boring for me, this may end up being one of those stories.  Of GRRM's sacred five, Tyrion is the only one I find genuinely interesting, such is fiction.

I'm hoping the B-Plot may be a final round of Game of Thrones with Littlefinger, Varys, Olenna, Ellaria and Tyrion (if he doesn't head North with Dany to fight) and Sansa as some sort of ringer for whomever she ultimately decides to throw in with.   I'm hoping Margaery's mentioned cousin "Alanna" has a brother that will be made Lord of Highgarden causing Sansa to throw in with Olenna who could use a protege now that Margaery (Loved her) is out.

[Eyes High]

16 hours ago, doram said:

Having Sansa get wed and raped by Ramsay Snow is a pretty big deviation from the story. About the only reason I think they can get away with it is if Sansa's endgame in the books is to continue to be fooled by Littlefinger and then die. 

The only problem is that D&D said they came up with the Jeyne/Sansa swap when planning Season 2, i.e. in 2011, two years before they got the endgame info dump. Still, I guess that the fact that they received Sansa's endgame info around the time they were writing Season 4 and still decided to go ahead with the Jeyne/Sansa swap could support your theory. 

Season 6 as a whole left me even more skeptical that Sansa will survive the series. There's no time at this point for silly sibling bullshit that's easily resolved, which suggests that whatever conflict is taking shape between Jon and Sansa, it's important and not easily resolved. I think D&D have put us on notice. It's all "She loves Jon BUT..." this and "She wants to trust Jon BUT..." that. It's that "but" that will be the end of her.

[GrailKing]

9 hours ago, SeanC said:

Yes, she did:

No, I think not Arya was very busy with Yoren, your perception may say it.

Now as I said above your stating that Sansa and Arya not arguing over this could be correct, but both girls have selective memories sometimes.

Here is how it played out in ep. 9 & 10.

at ~ 53:41, after Joffery stated Sansa pleaded and Cersei offered the wall Arya is looking around at the crowd, Sansa is in a low voice is saying no and stop him, and Cersei and Vary's are running to him to say it's madness, @ ~ 53:59 Arya gives a quick glance at the stage and the crowd is roaring and we hear nothing and the camera is fixed on her as she drops off the statue of Baelor, @~54:01 Cersei holding Joff's arm is stating my son this is madness, and someone is shouting put him down and Vary's is running to Joffery, cut to Arya running through the crowd, she is looking at nothing because people tower over her and can't hear nothing as the roar is very loud.

@ 54:05 Ned is looking at Sansa as a KG is holding her back in her struggling and Joff ( with a shitty smile on his face ) is flanked by a KG, his mother and Vary's looking up at him, Ned is forced down by KG and camera cuts to Arya running through the crowd.

@~ 54:12 Yoren's grabs Arya by the arm saying don't look and Arya screaming let go of me.

@~54:17 Yoren is screaming look at me and Arya is crying and screaming let me go as the camera pans to Illyn Payne drawing Ice and Sansa is being held back by her waist and screaming stop, stop him etc., Cersei is standing grimly, Joff is smiling,Vary's standing head bowed and arms in sleeves, LF looking to the left with a smirk, Joff standing with a grinn and Payne is holding Ice blade vertical.

@~54:20 Yoren looks back to the stage and sees Sansa screaming, Arya has her head down as Yoren looking down at her pulls her chin up with his left hand as the camera shifts to Ned.@~54:27 Ned looks right at Sansa screaming desperately stop, stop, @~ 54:58Ned looks to the crowd and the statute of Baelor where he doesn't see Arya  bows to commit to the blade with Sansa blurred out as the blade is flung, pan to Arya,pan to Ned,Ned's dead, pan to Arya looking up seeing pigeons fly close up on Arya black screen.

Episode 10 opens with a panning downward of Ned's blood on Ice and a KG who looks like Sandor ( first time I noticed that) picking up Ned's head for the crowd to see,pan down to Arya eyes closed held close by Yoren and him telling her to look at him, and you remember me boy, as he picks her up Arya glances to the stage see's Ned's body being dragged away, and Sansa passed out and dropped to the stage.

Both girls have issues to iron out what I myself  not sure what.

I wonder if the voice over of " what they took from me " is Sansa talking to Arya, we haven't had that yet.

Edited July 15, 2016 by GrailKing

[screamin]

18 hours ago, doram said:

Having Sansa get wed and raped by Ramsay Snow is a pretty big deviation from the story. About the only reason I think they can get away with it is if Sansa's endgame in the books is to continue to be fooled by Littlefinger and then die. 

Dunno. I think it more likely the showrunners looked at GRRM's current storyline of Sansa gradually learning political shrewdness during intrigues at the Vale and said "BO-ring. We can do better than that. Let's just sacrifice her dull Vale story, and plug her in the place of Jeyne Poole - a character we've never developed. Instead of learning survival through intrigue in the Vale, we'll have her learn it through the hard experience of being raped and tortured by Ramsey and trying fruitlessly to get away! Ta-DA! Streamlined, Cooler plotline!"

Why CAN'T they "get away with it?" Who is going to stop them? GRRM? We've already heard complaints enough from him about the fast pace the show is going to know that he's not the one with creative control over it. If the showrunners want to do this, he doesn't get a veto. They certainly aren't going to pay any attention to a fan like me who liked Sansa's Vale plotline. (I've seen somebody on these boards proclaim that NOBODY liked the Vale plotline, and I've heard that 'A Feast for Crows" was widely considered a disappointment on its release, so maybe I'm in the minority there).

[Katsullivan]

On 7/9/2016 at 1:32 PM, Eyes High said:

 

"Interesting"? Maybe. Blatantly sexist? Yes.

I do have to laugh at people who argue until they're blue in the face that Dany is a Sue while holding up Jon as a shining example of a non-Sue. I suppose the unprecedented twin magical bloodline (Stark/Targ), the magical supercool albino direwolf with red eyes (colouring that the other direwolves lack), the magical supercool sword he gets as a reward for conveniently being in the right place at the right time, what I assume will be the completely unearned magical resurrection and a convenient out from the vows he swore, the many women flirting with or outright throwing themselves at him (Ygritte, Val, Mel, Alys) despite his average looks, the many offers dropped in his lap for reasons that have nothing to do with merit or having earned them (Lord Commander, Winterfell and legitimization, etc.) all escaped their notice. As I said, pure sexism.

I also have to call sexism at those who rail against Dany winding up the endgame ruler because it would supposedly be "too perfect" and "too cliche" but who see nothing overly cliched about Jon, the epitome of the lost heir fantasy trope, doing so.

Yes, I was trying not to point out the obvious. But yes, it is sexist that people call Dany a Sue - a girl who was raped at 13, was a fugitive all her childhood, and has lost so much, and constantly screws up despite having the best intentions, etc, but Jon who is the epitome of the lost heir fantasy trope isn't seen as one. 

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, screamin said:

They certainly aren't going to pay any attention to a fan like me who liked Sansa's Vale plotline. (I've seen somebody on these boards proclaim that NOBODY liked the Vale plotline, and I've heard that 'A Feast for Crows" was widely considered a disappointment on its release, so maybe I'm in the minority there).

I liked the Vale plot line also, I don't understand them not liking it except no emotional tie in for viewers, but there is intrigue there with a good musical score it be very good.

[YaddaYadda]

I think it's time constraint. Unless something completely shocking happens in the books, I don't see Sansa ending up anywhere near Ramsay or the North for a while. It just seems they took one massive and really disturbing shortcut in that story. I know I came this close to quitting the show when I saw where they went with her character. Not that poor Jeyne Poole who was in one of LF's brothels fared any better in the books. 

There's no Lady Stoneheart, Northern conspiracy, they changed Stannis' story, they cut a lot out of Tyrion/Jorah, Dorne story is a mess.

Whatever the shortcuts they have been taking, it makes more sense knowing that they have 13-15 hours left in the show. 

[OhOkayWhat]

We usually make the mistake to analyze the script like an inorganic static thing, instead of a dynamic organic product.

It is not like the writers say: I do no like this part in the books and therefore I will replace it with my ideas. Instead of that, it is more like: where I need this character (emotionally, geographically, etc) in season 7 and how does it determine what is happening with him/her in season 6 and 5.

Edited July 15, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[screamin]

47 minutes ago, doram said:

So if they changing something as crucial to Sansa's plot and arc as... her not being raped by Ramsay Snow in her family house... it's clear that their idea of where they need Sansa to be in season 7 does not jive with GRRM's. 

If GRRM eventually needs Sansa in the North, with Jon and LF with a Vale army (which IMO is where the book plot is probably eventually tending), the showrunners can protest that they have brought her to that exact conclusion with an admirable economy of plot, having eliminated the need for a separate storyline with Sansa in the Vale (thus saving money and time) by merging her storyline with Theon's in Winterfell.

If any protest that Sansa's Vale storyline was needed to show how she learned to become a player, the showrunners might reply that the education provided by her hardships with Ramsey and her alliance with Jon is quite enough to explain her growing status as a player. Yeah, it's hard on Sansa and skimping on her character development, but given these showrunners, and the way they so often substitute tit-shows for character development, I'm not surprised.  Anyway, I don't think the way they treated Sansa shows that she's destined to do nothing, be manipulated by LF, and die...I'd say this version of Sansa is far less likely than book Sansa to trust LF.

Edited July 15, 2016 by screamin

[OhOkayWhat]

26 minutes ago, doram said:

Isn't that the same thing? .. I will replace it with my ideas === where I need this character in season 7, etc? I mean, they have a broad sketch outline of where the story ends and each character's arc. So if they changing something as crucial to Sansa's plot and arc as... her not being raped by Ramsay Snow in her family house... it's clear that their idea of where they need Sansa to be in season 7 does not jive with GRRM's. 

It is not the same thing:

-While working on it as an inorganic thing without thinking on the future seasons, the writer can fall in a trap: he/she follows the books and then decides to include a change. Later, he/she wants to go back to the plot of the books as closely as possible and notices, too late, he/she made a mistake, the changes he/she made make it now impossible to go back to the plot of the books that he/she now wants to follow closely.

-If the writer works on it as an organic product, the writer will include in previous seasons the changes he/she needs to make sense in the future seasons. If the future seasons does not follow the books, it is NOT a fundamental problem for him/her, because his/her own story flows organically.

[OhOkayWhat]

43 minutes ago, doram said:

If I understand this, that means that the writers made the decision to shift Sansa's story from the Vale in the previous season 4 so that it would make sense for her to be raped in North in future season 5?

 

Actually, there is not a real "shift" in this case. It  cannot be a "shift" because Sansa Vale storyline as it is developing in the books is Book-Sansa story, it is not and never was Show-Sansa story, in fact, Show-Sansa, from the very beginning is a character and Book-Sansa is another. It does not matter that, in the first seasons, their stories ran more or less close. "The books are the books and the show is the show" is very known phrase, but it is precisely in this kind of analysis when the real meaning of this phrase becomes important.

And yes, the events of each season are the consequence of the events of the previous seasons.

Edited July 16, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[kittykat]

On 7/14/2016 at 2:54 PM, SeanC said:

Whatever issues Sansa and Arya may have to hash out, that's not going to be one of them. Arya heard Sansa screaming after the order was given, and she thinks of Sansa fondly (albeit grudgingly, at times, which I always find amusing in both cases) on several occasions afterward.

I've heard from Sansa-haters about "the smile" over and over and I tell them the same thing.  She doesn't smile until they bring out Ned.  She is smiling at Ned to reassure him that everything is going to be ok as long as he confesses.  Assuming he has agreed and she was told by Cersei/Varys that will be shown mercy, it was a reassurance that she's ok.  At least until Joffrey well...Joffreyed.

If the sisters reunite I don't see a blame game happening.  They both miss each other and by the time they see one another again it will be a moment of love.  Arya is long past being mad at Sansa and vice versa and like there was with Jon maybe a slight apology or two but I expect heartwarming (and tears).

[OhOkayWhat]

5 hours ago, doram said:

I'm not sure how the two stories being independent or not, excuses or justifies that. 

An adaptation is just a derivative work, nothing else. We often forget it and we think the quality of an adaptation is necessarily related to how faithful to the original work it is, and that is not true, there are plenty of examples of that.

My main complaint with the Sansa case is that in my opinion art has a responsibility within the society. And the theme of rape is a very serious theme. It is a really complex subject that I have big doubts if it is really wise to include it in some movies, some tv shows, etc.

Besides that very important issue; if the question is: did they write the North storyline (the progression of events) in an organic way? the answer is yes. Can we track how Petyr was able to manipulate Sansa in season 5 within the episodes of season 4? the answer is yes. Can we see the consequences of Roose decisions in season 6? the answer is again yes. And the same way with other questions about the North plot. That is what I mean when I say that the progression of the events in Sansa storyline in the show is written in a organic way.

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, doram said:

....getting the upper-hand over him and acknowledging that she had this upper-hand....

This moment in season 4 is the exact moment where she loses all she gained in the "rescuing Petyr" scene. This is the exact moment where he is evil and manipulative enough to transform an almost-disaster into the first piece of his next trap (the manipulation in front of Moat Cailin in season 5) .

To acknowledge she has the upper hand is not the same than to have the upper hand. She loses it when she says "I know what you want". She does not. It is better to know you do not know something than to think you do and you actually do not. This event is the fundamental piece than makes possible his trap machine to exist. Petyr feed her with the idea that her isolated triumph, is proof she can play the game, he inflates her ego, makes her believe she can play and win the game as he does. And nothing of that is true.

Why? Because she does not know the real nature of the game: it is a game that damages the people that plays it. It is a game that nobody will win. Because she believes Petyr is teaching her things, when in fact, he is not a teacher, he is manipulator that will use her. People even celebrated that she was learning how to play the game from him, while each second she spends learning from him she is walking toward the disaster. To inspire is different than to manipulate, and Petyr is not teaching her to inspire.

Her last scenes in season 4, the black dress, the stairs, everything about that are pieces of the trap. Even the audience believes she will play the game now. But in season 5 we see how that confidence that he inflated in her mind, was just a part of his machinations to use her as a coin in his North game. He makes her believe that she can use the marriage as the horse of Troy, and her charms as a weapon.

She knows Roose does it because it gives him a political benefit, and thinks that it means she will not be in danger, he needs to create a Bolton-Stark lineage after all, and it is a long term plan. And that whatever Roose ask his son to do, he will do, because the son, will be grateful to receive so many gifts, and he will obey. Joffrey was the King and he obeyed Tywin. And all this will give her the chance to have her revenge. How? we already know she already knows how and who killed Joffrey. And Petyr, she believes, is her ally (another lie).

So it is actually the sum of all the lies he made her believe that explain how she fell in the trap. It is also the sum of all her past tribulations, the lost childhood dreams, the death of her family, her desire to believe that she could do something about it, that she was able to play the game as Petyr and that the game means something; all that stuff together in her heart and in her mind that explain her drama.

That is the reason I says all is connected in her storyline. And it also means that after all the things she suffered, now that she does not trust, that she does not believe in fairy tales, now that she is not sure about anything, now that there is more darkness in her heart, now that she is back in home with her family.... now comes the time she needs to decide. Her soul is in the middle, Jon and Petyr standing at each side, and I ask myself, what will her soul decide?

Edited July 16, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Katsullivan]

7 hours ago, doram said:

As a stand-alone story, the TV!Sansa's arc makes no sense.

As an adaptation, TV!Sansa's arc is offensive. 

Yes, this. I don't think people would be so offended by Sansa's story if it actually made sense. But her story was all over the place. You can even tell from the interviews from the actress and writers that they have no idea what they're doing with her character. 

[bunnyblue]

To get us back on topic, actual S7 filming news.

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Vísir shares rumors out of Iceland that refer to “six major characters” from the show being part of these Icelandic scenes. 

Hmm, if they're waiting until January to film it's probably to get the perfect winter conditions so it would be for the Northern storyline rather than anything in the Riverlands. My guess for the 6 major characters would be Jon, Sansa, Davos, Tormund, Littlefinger, and Brienne. With Podrick and other supporting characters there as well. Although what would that particular group be doing outdoors together? I chuckle at the image of LF trudging in the snow. Or maybe it's a scene where Jon and Sansa go to retrieve Bran, and Brienne, Meera, and Pod are there as well. Any guesses? 

[TxanGoddess]

I really wonder about Sansa leaving Winterfell.  I guess whatever the point of the family tradition "There must always be a Stark at Winterfell," might have already been busted since Bran and Rickon left during Theon's occupation.  But I would guess whether she goes North with Jon or not will be partly related to the reasoning behind this tradition, or whether she and Jon want to reinstate it.  Might have bearing on whether she is one of the six in the Icelandic scenes.

The info that NCW was flying to Iceland recently is quite interesting too.  I'm fascinated with how he might end up with a party of Northerners or NW.

Man I really wonder how the theory that Bran is trapped either north of, or into staying at Castle Black because of the Night King's marks might play out.  Because if its true, he would be stuck there until the very minute shit started to go down with the WW.  That would be quite a dilemma for Jon, trying to find a way to protect him and man an army, because I don't think Meera has it in her to drag him all the way to Winterfell.

[Wouter]

On 16-7-2016 at 1:24 AM, screamin said:

If GRRM eventually needs Sansa in the North, with Jon and LF with a Vale army (which IMO is where the book plot is probably eventually tending), the showrunners can protest that they have brought her to that exact conclusion with an admirable economy of plot, having eliminated the need for a separate storyline with Sansa in the Vale (thus saving money and time) by merging her storyline with Theon's in Winterfell.

The Vale army in the north looks like a show-only storyline to me, a consequence of swapping Jeyne with Sansa. In the show, LF said that the Vale army was especially trained to fight in the snow. In the book, it is stated that the mountain passes out of the Vale are all but unpassable now. And the Vale is looking more inward; there is still internal strife and I would expect nor Royce, nor LF to send troops loyal to him away while the other party has not been subdued.

The Vale has importance as a breadbasket and it may also come into play in the south (with Dorne likely on Aegon's side, it could even be a landing place for Dany; LF is likely to be aware of her and he needs to cut ties to the Lannister regime if he wants to show Sansa). And in the books, Stannis is still there in the north, for the time being (I see him defeating the Boltons at Winterfell).

Another, more meta-reason is that Sansa is building up her own supporting cast in the Vale. It seems unlikely to me that this would be dropped relatively quickly to move north.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Wouter said:

The Vale army in the north looks like a show-only storyline to me, a consequence of swapping Jeyne with Sansa. In the show, LF said that the Vale army was especially trained to fight in the snow. In the book, it is stated that the mountain passes out of the Vale are all but unpassable now. And the Vale is looking more inward; there is still internal strife and I would expect nor Royce, nor LF to send troops loyal to him away while the other party has not been subdued.

I'm not sure how it's going to proceed, but it definitely sounds like Littlefinger intends to do something with the Vale army in the near future, whether his plans ever reach that stage or not.

[Macbeth]

So Mel is heading south and Arya is south - will they meet as Mel had predicted on the show?  Was it the book only that predicted that Arya would die with needle in her hand after the snows had thawed??

I would imagine they would.  (Unless Carice has left the show - I know she is expecting.)  I don't think Mel is on or still on Arya's list.  But if she learns about Mel burning Shireen - she could easily make it a priority for Arya to kill Mel.  I am really glad Mel had a small redemption arc this season.  And I don't mean resurrecting Jon.  Her character showed real remorse for her many mistakes. But still she has burned so many people at the stake. 

Speaking of red priestesses.  Given that Tyrion is seen throughout the lands as a villain, probably the smartest move he made was to hire the red priestess to spread the word of Dany.  She did say that part of her role was to see that Dany's advisors were obeyed.  So his bad PR might be coming to an end, as people will be afraid of getting burned at the stakes if they bad mouth him.   Only Tyrion could manage to profit from hiring religious fanatics.

I really want the Brotherhood to meet up with the Wildings.  I think they would get along great.  The Brotherhood have a great outlaw feel to them and was rebelling against the wars - something the Wildings could respect.  Of course when they find out Beric rose from the dead as well....I think they will resign to the Northerners being in charge - no wonder they couldn't kill those F...ers. 

[Chris24601]

9 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I'm not sure how it's going to proceed, but it definitely sounds like Littlefinger intends to do something with the Vale army in the near future, whether his plans ever reach that stage or not.

Yeah... he's already talked about retaking Winterfell using Sansa in the books so I think showSansa took a detour, but ended up in pretty much the same place her book character will be by the end of Book Six.

[WearyTraveler]

24 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Was it the book only that predicted that Arya would die with needle in her hand after the snows had thawed??

I don't think this is a book prediction, Jon was teasing Arya about her not liking to saw like Sansa.  It's the joke that later allows for both of them to name her sword.  I wouldn't read too much into it.

[Wouter]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

I'm not sure how it's going to proceed, but it definitely sounds like Littlefinger intends to do something with the Vale army in the near future, whether his plans ever reach that stage or not.

The Vale army could be used to support Dany, if LF wishes to ally himself with her. It would be backing the winning horse and he could cut his ties to the Lannisters without fear of retaliation.

Since Dany should have a sizeable fleet if she would reach Westeros (with an army), that would also take care of the blocked passes.

I guess Manderly's new fleet could also do that if the Vale army wants to go north.

[SeanC]

Just now, Wouter said:

The Vale army could be used to support Dany, if LF wishes to ally himself with her. It would be backing the winning horse and he could cut his ties to the Lannisters without fear of retaliation.

Littlefinger doesn't need to fear Lannister retaliation already.  He's safe in the Vale, surrounded by houses largely indifferent or hostile to them.  Indeed, revealing himself as anti-Lannister would improve his standing in the Vale.

It's as yet unclear what Littlefinger may know about Dany, but I doubt he's hanging all his plans on her, and both in the show and the books, Dany will arrive in Westeros with advisors who are decidedly hostile to Littlefinger.

[paigow]

54 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

I don't think this is a book prediction, Jon was teasing Arya about her not liking to saw like Sansa.  It's the joke that later allows for both of them to name her sword. 

Cue up Monty Python Lumberjack song...

[Wouter]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

Yeah... he's already talked about retaking Winterfell using Sansa in the books so I think showSansa took a detour, but ended up in pretty much the same place her book character will be by the end of Book Six.

But that's a very long term plan. The first step to that plan is to marry Harry the Heir, then wait for Robert Arryn to die (or to be convinced to go along with the plan) so Harry could take Vale forces north.

And in order to marry Harry, Sansa first has to woo him so he agrees and then she has to get her present marriage annulled. Which requires consent of the High Septon, or Tyrion to die. I doubt all those conditions will be met by the end of The winds of winter (the book, if that ever comes out).

[WearyTraveler]

1 minute ago, paigow said:

Cue up Monty Python Lumberjack song...

ahahaah!!! That's what happens when you rush through a post!

[Wouter]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

Littlefinger doesn't need to fear Lannister retaliation already.  He's safe in the Vale, surrounded by houses largely indifferent or hostile to them.  Indeed, revealing himself as anti-Lannister would improve his standing in the Vale.

It's as yet unclear what Littlefinger may know about Dany, but I doubt he's hanging all his plans on her, and both in the show and the books, Dany will arrive in Westeros with advisors who are decidedly hostile to Littlefinger.

LF may not fear Lannister directly, but Lannister and/or Tyrell forces coming to attack/siege the Vale would still be a concern. It would solidify his power base in the Vale, but it also would risk damage to his properties there, such as the precious food stocks, and it could hinder trade. This may be less of an issue now that Cersei has lost her fleet and the Redwyne's are fighting Euron, but having the support of a powerful alternative claimant of the throne would allow the Vale to go on the offensive.

As for the advisors, it would be interesting if LF would go for a deal with Dany and then realise that Tyrion is on her side. That would be a serious complication.

However, as hostile as Dany's advisors are likely to be, Aegon's advisors will be worse (Varys being his chief nemesis in the books). And backing other claimants against those two looks to be extremely risky; especially going against Dany's dragons can't look too good for a well-informed, intelligent man like LF, even if he is a gambler, too.

[SeanC]

Just now, Wouter said:

LF may not fear Lannister directly, but Lannister and/or Tyrell forces coming to attack/siege the Vale would still be a concern. It would solidify his power base in the Vale, but it also would risk damage to his properties there, such as the precious food stocks, and it could hinder trade. This may be less of an issue now that Cersei has lost her fleet and the Redwyne's are fighting Euron, but having the support of a powerful alternative claimant of the throne would allow the Vale to go on the offensive.

As for the advisors, it would be interesting if LF would go for a deal with Dany and then realise that Tyrion is on her side. That would be a serious complication.

However, as hostile as Dany's advisors are likely to be, Aegon's advisors will be worse (Varys being his chief nemesis in the books). And backing other claimants against those two looks to be extremely risky; especially going against Dany's dragons can't look too good for a well-informed, intelligent man like LF, even if he is a gambler, too.

The Vale is all but immune to external assault.  With the rest of the kingdom in chaos, the simplest thing to do is wait and watch everybody else slug it out, which is what he's been doing to date.

As far as Littlefinger's relationship with Varys, the show has made them a lot more openly oppositional than the books.  In the books they're aware of each other and both schemers, but I wouldn't call Varys Littlefingers "chief nemesis".

[Wouter]

People who are aware of his schemes (Varys and Tyrion, maybe some of the Tyrells) are a problem for LF. And Aegon is Varys' pet project. I doubt he would let LF within 50 miles of Aegon, which would leave LF with an opponent of Aegon as "his" option for the throne (and someone who would be willing to take LF's advice) - unless he is willing to play second fiddle. 

[Macbeth]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

It's as yet unclear what Littlefinger may know about Dany, but I doubt he's hanging all his plans on her, and both in the show and the books, Dany will arrive in Westeros with advisors who are decidedly hostile to Littlefinger.

Right now Varys is on the ship plotting different scenarios where he can kill Littlefinger.  I am on rewatch and the looks of loathing Varys bestows on LF at times in front of others is telling.  He doesn't bother to hide his hate.  I think Varys is slated to kill Qyburn for using his little birds as actual weapons.  I hope Sansa takes out LF, but I wouldn't bet actual money on that.

[screamin]

10 hours ago, Wouter said:

The Vale army in the north looks like a show-only storyline to me, a consequence of swapping Jeyne with Sansa. In the show, LF said that the Vale army was especially trained to fight in the snow. In the book, it is stated that the mountain passes out of the Vale are all but unpassable now. And the Vale is looking more inward; there is still internal strife and I would expect nor Royce, nor LF to send troops loyal to him away while the other party has not been subdued.

What, the entire Vale is impregnable? The map doesn't make it look so, especially from the sea. I really don't think the Vale is just going to sit inert in the plot till winter is over. The lords of starving regions will know that unless they get food for their lands, their battle-hardened peasant armies will rebel. The Vale has food. If the Vale lords just sit there complacently behind their mountain walls, the other lords can band together and attack their more accessible properties one by one. Whereas if the Vale band together and divide their foe by offering food to some lords to ally with them against the others, they can take advantage of this crisis to take real power and spoils...say, starting with the Freys, who are right on their doorstep.

[SandSniper]

14 hours ago, SeanC said:

The Vale is all but immune to external assault. .

Except to dragons.

Dragons are the nuclear weapons of Westeros.

Warmest Regards, Smoker

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, Macbeth said:

Was it the book only that predicted that Arya would die with needle in her hand after the snows had thawed??

I think the show did not include that phrase. Instead, as a possible endgame prediction, the show gave us the "but what's west of Westeros?" Arya dialogue last season.

[paigow]

3 hours ago, SandSniper said:

Except to dragons.

Dragons are the nuclear weapons of Westeros.

Warmest Regards, Smoker

The "Bloody Gate" is a natural chokepoint against infantry...while the defenders also control the high ground approaching the gate...an attacking ground force will end up like the SEAL team in "The Rock"

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I think the show did not include that phrase. Instead, as a possible endgame prediction, the show gave us the "but what's west of Westeros?" Arya dialogue last season.

Yeah, depending on their book endings, I wouldn't be surprised that the showrunners changed some endings for main characters into something more hopeful and it would definitely help with the series' replay value.

I definitely think "But what's west of Westeros?" is going to be important to Arya's show ending. It is SO much a departure from anything we've seen from her in the books that it either has to be in reference to a specific book spoiler Martin shared or something D&D has specifically added because they want to give Arya some happier ending than she gets in the books.

IF Arya's fate in the books is to die without ever reuniting with her family (a twist I could see Martin going with), I would not be surprised if the show instead gives us Arya deciding that she changed too much to go back to her family and instead decides to go find out what's west of Westeros and see if there is a place for her there. Nothing much changes from the perspective of the other characters; they still have to go on without her... and if she leaves without ever telling them then it'd be just as ambiguous for them as if she'd died and her body not been found (and if they really need to know she's dead for their endings then she can pull some face-changing trick)... but it gives viewers who are Arya fans a 'hope shot' of Arya going off to hopefully find peace and happiness somewhere.

For all its reputation for shock value, I think the show will probably give softer endings to the core cast; Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Dany, Tyrion and possibly Jaime than the books will, because the softer endings will appeal more to general audiences and the replay value of the series.

[screamin]

Dragons aren't the only way.

An attacking ground force can go for the cities on the Vale's coastline - despite its name, the Vale holds jurisdiction over quite a few, including Gulltown. These are unprotected by mountains, and an army marching along the coastline leaves the Vale army with the choice of sitting cravenly behind their 'impregnable' mountain walls watching while their rich coastal cities are despoiled and looted by armies who are after food and treasure enough to survive the winter, or coming down to fight.

Let's play Stratego! 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/2/2d/The_Vale.jpg

Thing is, every lord who's participated in the war has taken his peasants away from their usual occupation of planting and harvesting, and many of those lords have had their lands and crops looted as well. And winter has begun - there's no chance of another harvest. If the lords of those lands take their armies home now, they know their peasant soldiers will be faced with the spectacle of their families' imminent starvation, and they WILL rebel if the lord can't provide. Those lords' best chance will be to band together and go marauding in richer areas on any excuse, in the hopes of getting enough pillage to survive through the winter.

The Vale, if they know anything about war, know this will eventually happen, and may well come to the conclusion that the best option is to ally themselves with some of those starving lords to turn on the others with the promise of food as a reward, and pre-emptively march on the rest of Westeros and take power and redistribute it to suit themselves (beginning with the Freys). IMO, this would be better for the Vale than to passively wait until its starving opposition organizes itself into one force and attacks - something that's almost mathematically certain, given the imminent shortage of food.

Edited July 18, 2016 by screamin

[SeanC]

43 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

IF Arya's fate in the books is to die without ever reuniting with her family (a twist I could see Martin going with)

GRRM has as close as said that Arya will meet Sansa again, and with the wolf pack, etc., I have a hard time imagining she won't be closely involved in the war against the Others in the North.

40 minutes ago, screamin said:

Dragons aren't the only way.

An attacking ground force can go for the cities on the Vale's coastline - despite its name, the Vale holds jurisdiction over quite a few, including Gulltown. These are unprotected by mountains, and an army marching along the coastline leaves the Vale army with the choice of sitting cravenly behind their 'impregnable' mountain walls watching while their rich coastal cities are despoiled and looted by armies who are after food and treasure enough to survive the winter, or coming down to fight.

The Vale's coastline is rocky and, for the most part, not suited to amphibious assault.  Just about only good landing zone is Gulltown, which is highly fortified as a result; likewise, those points that are weaker on the coastline are also defended by major castles.  This is all discussed in TWOIAF.

HBO confirms a Season 7 of seven episodes, and states that it will debut in the summer.  They also confirm that it will film in Iceland, as rumoured earlier. 

I'd say that all but guarantees they miss the 2017 Emmys (which would require them to air 4 episode by the end of May).

Edited July 18, 2016 by SeanC

[screamin]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

he Vale's coastline is rocky and, for the most part, not suited to amphibious assault.  Just about only good landing zone is Gulltown, which is highly fortified as a result; likewise, those points that are weaker on the coastline are also defended by major castles.  This is all discussed in TWOIAF.

That's why I said 'marching along the coastline'. I never said such an expedition would be without difficulties - just that the Vale isn't exactly immune to external assault.

[bunnyblue]

Well, it's official, S7 will premiere next summer and will only be 7 episodes. I was holding out hope for maybe 8 episodes and maybe a mid-May debut. This wait is going to be awful.