S08.E10: Unhappy Holidays

jaync · June 14, 2016

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She can be really unpleasant but she's not stupid. She saw what that did to Jill Zarin.

Beth is smelling herself hard, which can make one pretty oblivious. Hence her claim that ratings are higher than ever since her return.

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...I have to wonder why she [Aviva] never practiced Law as she is good at verbally attacking/eviscerating an opponent.

Word on the street is that she has a phobia of gavels.

Edited June 14, 2016 by jaync

zoeysmom · June 14, 2016

25 minutes ago, nexxie said:

All I can say is it's amazing that Batshit Crazy Bethenny keeps finding new boyfriends - perhaps they've never seen these shows or they're in it for money.

Her new guy is her perfect match. Notice the way she dances around the friends with his wife issue. http://www.people.com/article/bethenny-frankel-dating-dennis-shields-perfect-match

RHJunkie · June 14, 2016

1 hour ago, Yours Truly said:

I agree with this. I also think that the dislike really stemmed from that brutal meeting where Aviva was discussing her book with Carole. I mean that's when a big chunk of my dislike for Carole started although the way she was always going on and on about Lu in the beginning put my radar up the fact that she backed off and started behaving better settled my dislike a bit, then the whole thing with Aviva.

It basically proved that Carole is a rather dismissive snob that decides on a whim whether or not you're worthy of validation from her. The part that bothers me so about her is that she really believes that its her place to validate someone or something and if she doesn't then it's silly for other to do so and then the eyerolls commence. That is what really rubs me the wrong way about her. She makes snap judgements, pish poshes on this or that, is so very condescending over things and it's one thing to have an opinion on something. It's a free country. It's the way, from day one, she seems to tack on this vibe of something not being important or relevant or anything of substance or worth comment. Problem is this vibe comes out a lot and over a lot of things and after a while it just seems comical cause I mean damn not everything needs to be imbued with her forced blase', hipster, too cool for school spin. Her aloofness is just ridiculous and overplayed. Zero fucks isn't a status dahling but to see her in action you would think it is.

I picked up that vibe from the get go as well. I thought it was interesting that Carole and Luann's rocky relationship in the beginning was due to Carole thinking that Luann mentioning having the same kind of coat or whatever was Luann's attempt at one-upping her. I think that's a perfect example of her snap judgment. Upon meeting the other women she was introduced to the notion of a snobbish Luann who behaves as fake royalty and so she would be jealous when she would meet a real princess. That's why I think those small comments became a much larger issue for Carole - she was operating under the context that was given to her rather than having honest interaction so that she could decide for herself. I can relate to Luann in that instance because I often relate back similarities to others when getting to know them or having conversation because I think it's an effortless way to connect with someone. It's certainly not to put the spotlight on me (and no one has ever reacted that way to me as Carole did toward Luann) but to highlight commonalities that make possible conversation topics a lot more effortless.

Aviva acted stupid in her own right but I can see that vibe. Carole was offended from the get go and it went downhill really quickly.

lunastartron · June 14, 2016

Carole's behavior at the luncheon that sparked BookGate was the ne plus ultra of odiousness to me. I thought it was clear that she was determined from jump to publicly shit all over Aviva. Way before any substantive conversation transpired, she was already making faces and grimacing at the most innocuous social vacuities. Then, after Aviva denied employing a gw (a matter which has no impact on Carole), she literally rolled her eyes and sneered "that was a letter to your mother" when Aviva referenced her Chicken Soup essay. All of that occurred before Aviva even intimated that Carole might have used a gw herself. It was astonishing that Carole felt the need to and no compunction about transparently denigrating the professional hobbyism of an acquaintance/former friend. If anyone had sighed that What Remains was "a diary entry" about *Carole's* dead loved one, we'd still be hearing about it. Her display was so unnecessarily ugly. Which is why I had no problem with Aviva responding in kind.

seasick · June 15, 2016

I cannot imagine that this aspect of the C/A fight hasn't been beaten to death but I haven't seen it mentioned in this latest thread so I will. I recall Carole was absolutely out-of her-mind furious that Aviva would dare approach the exalted throne of being a "writer" by writing her own book. Correct me if I'm wrong (it was a long time ago) but it was my recollection that Aviva went to Carole's to ask some advice and 'talk shop" with Carole. (Now if that whole thing was contrived to piss Carole off I can't say. I cannot stand either of them) Carole belittled Aviva so horribly that that is when Aviva turned and bit Carole with the GW thing etc. I don't recall what Carole said to Aviva's face, but in her TH's she went on about "'I'm a "Writer" and 'high horse accomplished journalism' blather. and how dare Aviva think she could even wash the underwear of a "Writer". (my words but the attitude was Carole's) That was when all my suspicions about Carole's huge ego were confirmed and her cool and so above all act was bullshit.

Almost 3000 · June 15, 2016

1 hour ago, seasick said:

I cannot imagine that this aspect of the C/A fight hasn't been beaten to death but I haven't seen it mentioned in this latest thread so I will. I recall Carole was absolutely out-of her-mind furious that Aviva would dare approach the exalted throne of being a "writer" by writing her own book. Correct me if I'm wrong (it was a long time ago) but it was my recollection that Aviva went to Carole's to ask some advice and 'talk shop" with Carole. (Now if that whole thing was contrived to piss Carole off I can't say. I cannot stand either of them) Carole belittled Aviva so horribly that that is when Aviva turned and bit Carole with the GW thing etc. I don't recall what Carole said to Aviva's face, but in her TH's she went on about "'I'm a "Writer" and 'high horse accomplished journalism' blather. and how dare Aviva think she could even wash the underwear of a "Writer". (my words but the attitude was Carole's) That was when all my suspicions about Carole's huge ego were confirmed and her cool and so above all act was bullshit.

Aviva had a bit of a fan girl crush on Carole and had mentioned that she loved Carole's book. I thought it was rather interesting how quickly the tide changed and it seemed to have everything to do with, as you mentioned Carole belittling Aviva.

seasick · June 15, 2016

28 minutes ago, Almost 3000 said:

Aviva had a bit of a fan girl crush on Carole and had mentioned that she loved Carole's book. I thought it was rather interesting how quickly the tide changed and it seemed to have everything to do with, as you mentioned Carole belittling Aviva.

Geezes that's even worse! So Aviva (I almost said "poor Aviva" --will wash mouth) actually went to her as a fan and got kicked in the teeth. What a shit. Carole was so threatened by even Aviva with her email stories-- she's so pathetic. No wonder Aviva became rabid.

WireWrap · June 15, 2016

22 minutes ago, seasick said:

Geezes that's even worse! So Aviva (I almost said "poor Aviva" --will wash mouth) actually went to her as a fan and got kicked in the teeth. What a shit. Carole was so threatened by even Aviva with her email stories-- she's so pathetic. No wonder Aviva became rabid.

No, not really. Aviva asked Carole for help in vetting ghostwriters for her book off season (something Aviva admitted to doing/asking), which Carole did for her. Then when cameras were rolling, Carole asked Aviva if she hired/used the GW she recommended to her after Aviva told her that she finished her book. Aviva told Carole that she didn't use a GW and then proceeded to basically tell Carole that unlike her, Carole, she didn't need a GW because writing her book was akin to writing a long letter, which set it all in motion and Carole got upset/insulted. Carole calmed down until Ramona started it up again at Aviva's housewarming party for her new film rental which Carole attended, as Aviva was going from group to group telling everyone at the party that according to the "word on the street" Carole used a GW for her very personal first book, and off to the races we all went! LOL

I think Carole made a big, BIG, mistake mentioning the GW on camera but I honestly don't think she thought Aviva wanted it kept quiet or that is was something that would trigger Aviva's crazy side. Aviva then started the "Word on the street" mantra and never looked back. This became both Aviva's and Carole's main storyline all season, "Ghostwritergate".

lunastartron · June 15, 2016

24 minutes ago, WireWrap said:

No, not really. Aviva asked Carole for help in vetting ghostwriters for her book off season (something Aviva admitted to doing/asking), which Carole did for her. Then when cameras were rolling, Carole asked Aviva if she hired/used the GW she recommended to her after Aviva told her that she finished her book. Aviva told Carole that she didn't use a GW and then proceeded to basically tell Carole that unlike her, Carole, she didn't need a GW because writing her book was akin to writing a long letter, which set it all in motion and Carole got upset/insulted. Carole calmed down until Ramona started it up again at Aviva's housewarming party for her new film rental which Carole attended, as Aviva was going from group to group telling everyone at the party that according to the "word on the street" Carole used a GW for her very personal first book, and off to the races we all went! LOL

I think Carole made a big, BIG, mistake mentioning the GW on camera but I honestly don't think she thought Aviva wanted it kept quiet or that is was something that would trigger Aviva's crazy side. Aviva then started the "Word on the street" mantra and never looked back. This became both Aviva's and Carole's main storyline all season, "Ghostwritergate".

Unlike Scary Island, I remember the BookGate war very clearly and I am certain (or 99.9%) that the bolded did not happen.

To answer seasick's question, Aviva fangirled out to the point of mild sycophancy when she and Carole first met upon joining the cast. She lauded What Remains in very adulatory terms. Carole was gracious in person but noted in talking heads that the plaudits she garnered from the memoir while socializing were actually tiresome because she had to "click back into widow mode" while wearing "sexy hot pants and heels" (in retrospect, such remarks come across as really snide to me although I missed it at the time). Aviva also effused about how much she "loved" the first paragraph of WG that Carole read at that year's wrap party.

After season 5, according to Carole, she didn't hear from Aviva for "eight months" - this was the extended hiatus when the show didn't air for over a year. But the two remained in contact to the extent, as WireWrap notes, that Aviva solicited recommendations for a gw to pen Leggy Blonde.

When filming for season 6 commenced, Carole was already aggressively sour on Aviva. She was lukewarm at the opening fete.

And when they met for lunch, she immediately started making bizarre expressions at Aviva, bristled when Aviva *complimented* her glasses, and literally couldn't keep her eyes from rolling back in her head when Aviva started talking.

Aviva issued absolutely *zero* salvos until Carole asked a minimum of three times about gw, demanded what Aviva's credentials were vis-à-vis authorship and then dismissed the references to her academic training and Chicken Soup essay with which Aviva replied, and made that "that was a letter to your mother" remark.

Aviva's comments about writing Leggy Blonde and comparisons to e-mails came before all of those gems and referred only to Aviva's process and Aviva's perspective alone. She was totally guilty of bullshitting her role in Leggy Blonde (and stupidly since her co-writer was credited in the actual book) but not attacking until she incurred significant unprovoked and/or disproportionate hostility.

The first attempt Aviva made at suggesting Carole had indeed used a gw on What Remains came after Carole's weird sneering.

I don't fault Carole for mentioning the gw on camera but rather for hammering it repeatedly in an explicitly nasty demeanor.

As the adage goes, don't start no shit, won't be no shit.

Edited June 15, 2016 by lunastartron

Trooper York · June 15, 2016

But Carole is full of more shit than Ramona's dog and it just oozes out of her like sweat on an Armenian dry cleaner.

WireWrap · June 15, 2016

3 minutes ago, lunastartron said:

Unlike Scary Island, I remember the BookGate war very clearly and I am certain (or 99.9%) that the bolded did not happen.

To answer seasick's question, Aviva fangirled out to the point of mild sycophancy when she and Carole first met upon joining the cast. She lauded What Remains in very adulatory terms. Carole was gracious in person but noted in talking heads that the plaudits she garnered from the memoir while socializing were actually tiresome because she had to "click back into widow mode" while wearing "sexy hot pants and heels" (in retrospect, such remarks come across as really snide to me although I missed it at the time). Aviva also effused about how much she "loved" the first paragraph of WG that Carole read at that year's wrap party.

After season 5, according to Carole, she didn't hear from Aviva for "eight months" - this was the extended hiatus when the show didn't air for over a year. But the two remained in contact to the extent, as WireWrap notes, that Aviva solicited recommendations for a gw to pen Leggy Blonde.

When filming for season 6 commenced, Carole was already aggressively sour on Aviva. She was lukewarm at the opening fete.

And when they met for lunch, she immediately started making bizarre expressions at Aviva, bristled when Aviva *complimented* her glasses, and literally couldn't keep her eyes from rolling back in her head when Aviva started talking.

Aviva issued absolutely *zero* salvos until Carole asked a minimum of three times about gw, demanded what Aviva's credentials were vis-à-vis authorship and then dismissed the references to her academic training and Chicken Soup essay with which Aviva replied, and made that "that was a letter to your mother" remark.

Aviva's comments about writing Leggy Blonde and comparisons to e-mails came before all of those gems and referred only to Aviva's process and Aviva's perspective alone.

The first attempt Aviva made at suggesting Carole had indeed used a gw on What Remains came after Carole's weird sneering.

I don't fault Carole for mentioning the gw on camera but rather for hammering it repeatedly in an explicitly nasty demeanor.

As the adage goes, don't start no shit, won't be no shit.

That was a brief synopsis. Yes, Carole did have a bit of attitude towards Aviva, I am not sure where it came from but it was there and I felt that Aviva knew exactly what she was doing, which was baiting Carole (successfully I might add). I don't count TH comments (the glasses/ect.) because they are filmed weeks/months after the initial scene is filmed and they are questioned by a producer that we never see and we never, ever, hear what the HW is asked to elicit the answer and the THs are edited before they are inserted into the final footage. I distrust the producers/editors more than all the HWs combined. LOL I have to wonder how long that lunch actually was to elicit the comments we heard.

IMO, it was one of the most idiotic storylines on the show to date and both Aviva and Carole showed themselves to be asses.

aradia22 · June 15, 2016

To me it really, really feels like Carole is A) not over the Adam nonsense last season and B) completely uninteresting aside from that. So Carole and Bethenny made a plan to get Luann off the show. That's why Carole will not let anything go and why this fight right now makes no sense. B makes no sense in particular because she has nothing to fight over. She's just in attack dog mode for Carole's sake.

I've heard plenty of reality TV non-apologies but B's I regret the way I spoke "because I don't want to be that person but you bring it out in me" is pretty shameless.

God, I rarely wish violence onto someone but when B was going on what was... rant #195, I found myself wishing this was the kind of Bravo show with some slapping or hairpulling. I wanted Luann to take her down and just stop that damn mouth.

So B does want to take Sonja down. But she couldn't care less right? WHICH IS IT? Ah, infuriating.

"You can speak to me about what's happening with you and me. And that's it." Oh, like you're doing B? What the hell does it matter to you what's going on in Luann's sex life? Shut up. If you're going to argue this badly, shut up.

"In the year of Caitlyn, it's very modern." Ew, Bethenny. Please stop talking.

"Next year she's going to give out Skinny Girl enemas." I can't. STOP branding.

zoeysmom · June 15, 2016

Monday night Bravo aired another "Uncensored" show. This time it was Season 8 of the RHOC. I bring it up as the producers focused on the demise of Gretchen. They she was out of stories and she had no children or husband and the Slade engagement thing was questionable at best. I immediately thought of Carole with no storylines, her biggie last year was picking up some of her late husband's ashes. Her secondary storyline was fighting with Luann over a man/boy. There was Gretchen delighting at Tamra running off Alexia and the producer mentioned it was the beginning of the end of Gretchen's friendship with both Tamra and Alexis. I thought there were a lot of correlations between the two situations. Carole has given us four seasons of mediocre drivel, almost caused the demise of the entire franchise with coma inducing Bookgate and now has Bethenny fighting her battles and by consenting to do so has signed on to be up Ramona's butt as well. The threesome is a scary alliance.

There is just nothing to Carole and Adam's relationship on camera or anything remotely interesting watching Carole ready herself to write a vegan cookbook. Writing a book has never made for good reality TV and Carole and Adam won't change this. I guess Carole's big contribution will be watching her foster kittens. Maybe we will get to watch her clean a litter box or scold Baby, her dog, for eating cat turds, when Adam isn't quick enough to get them out of the litter.

Whatever the course, she and Bethenny leading the charge of segregated filming usually leads to one or other being eliminated. The I won't go if Luann goes, and Bethenny adding I won't go if Carole won't go is beyond sophomoric and I am not sure how Bravo is going to shoot around Carole's arrogance.

aradia22 · June 15, 2016

If we could replace John with Lucy (Dorinda's dog) I would be very happy. I'm enjoying her one-sided conversations.

It's one thing if Carole never wants to forgive Luann. Fine. Whatever. But stop harping on the sincerity of her apologies. I agree, how many times does she have to apologize... especially if you have no intention of ever forgiving her?

I do think Luann has been a little shady about implying she had something to do with the idea for Skinny Girl but B is overcompensating by forbidding her to even say she was alive at the moment.

I really enjoyed Sonja refusing to get chewed out my B and staying on the couch instead of going over.

Wait, what? How is Sonja like Mario? What is Ramona talking about? She's the one who makes no sense.

zoeysmom · June 15, 2016

20 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

If we could replace John with Lucy (Dorinda's dog) I would be very happy. I'm enjoying her one-sided conversations.

It's one thing if Carole never wants to forgive Luann. Fine. Whatever. But stop harping on the sincerity of her apologies. I agree, how many times does she have to apologize... especially if you have no intention of ever forgiving her?

I do think Luann has been a little shady about implying she had something to do with the idea for Skinny Girl but B is overcompensating by forbidding her to even say she was alive at the moment.

I really enjoyed Sonja refusing to get chewed out my B and staying on the couch instead of going over.

Wait, what? How is Sonja like Mario? What is Ramona talking about? She's the one who makes no sense.

Ramona considers Mario as a lost soul since he ditched her. She makes it sound as if he has dementia and is in a facility somewhere with drool running off his chin. The reality is he is not coming back. So Ramona calls him lost. I thought Sonja was the only one making sense in regards to Bethenny-why chase after her? If she wants to talk yo Sonja she know where to find her. I am thinking Sonja needs to dial back on the texting as well. If there was a window for the two of them to chat, I can see where Sonja would think it would be at Dorinda's. She would have had some time to plead her case. Sonja just refuses to accept the fact that she has screwed the pooch as far as Bethenny is concerned.

aradia22 · June 15, 2016

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There had to be some weird time/truth bending with Jules' scenes because no competent doctor is going to do a hip replacement on a guy who just was delirious with pneumonia a day or so earlier. I've been through aftercare with all sorts of joint replacements with my parents, and they screen the shit out of you before cutting because post replacement infection is so common, even under the best of circumstances.

I agree. I was wondering if we were missing some pieces because the editors had nothing to work with. None of the women even listened to Jules when she brought up her dad being in the hospital.

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Carole's eating! YES! I am sorry I forget who mentioned it but it's awful. She does it for attention, it's a weird over exaggerated eating while she talks food noisy mouth open chewing dramatic act to draw attention to herself, as she was with her ass on the counter (again) at Bethenny's apartment. And I HATE it. Oral fixation + needs attention = Carole.

I see it as her trying to prove she eats... unlike Jules. You can chomp as widely as you want, Carole. No one is buying it.

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Bethenny full admits that she would de-friend anyone who spoke to her the way that she spoke to Luann and she's giggling like an idiot like her behavior is somehow cute, acceptable, or understandable.

THIS. Carole and B both have TH's where they giggle about their transgressions and usually throw in an unfunny joke. I'm over it.

WireWrap · June 15, 2016

4 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

Monday night Bravo aired another "Uncensored" show. This time it was Season 8 of the RHOC. I bring it up as the producers focused on the demise of Gretchen. They she was out of stories and she had no children or husband and the Slade engagement thing was questionable at best. I immediately thought of Carole with no storylines, her biggie last year was picking up some of her late husband's ashes. Her secondary storyline was fighting with Luann over a man/boy. There was Gretchen delighting at Tamra running off Alexia and the producer mentioned it was the beginning of the end of Gretchen's friendship with both Tamra and Alexis. I thought there were a lot of correlations between the two situations. Carole has given us four seasons of mediocre drivel, almost caused the demise of the entire franchise with coma inducing Bookgate and now has Bethenny fighting her battles and by consenting to do so has signed on to be up Ramona's butt as well. The threesome is a scary alliance.

There is just nothing to Carole and Adam's relationship on camera or anything remotely interesting watching Carole ready herself to write a vegan cookbook. Writing a book has never made for good reality TV and Carole and Adam won't change this. I guess Carole's big contribution will be watching her foster kittens. Maybe we will get to watch her clean a litter box or scold Baby, her dog, for eating cat turds, when Adam isn't quick enough to get them out of the litter.

Whatever the course, she and Bethenny leading the charge of segregated filming usually leads to one or other being eliminated. The I won't go if Luann goes, and Bethenny adding I won't go if Carole won't go is beyond sophomoric and I am not sure how Bravo is going to shoot around Carole's arrogance.

Really, the same could be said of Bethenny. She is not allowing anything of her personal life on the show, nothing. At least we have seen Carole/Adam interact at home, but nothing with Bethenny/dates, nothing, all we are getting from her is SKG/brand and nothing more.

3 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

Ramona considers Mario as a lost soul since he ditched her. She makes it sound as if he has dementia and is in a facility somewhere with drool running off his chin. The reality is he is not coming back. So Ramona calls him lost. I thought Sonja was the only one making sense in regards to Bethenny-why chase after her? If she wants to talk yo Sonja she know where to find her. I am thinking Sonja needs to dial back on the texting as well. If there was a window for the two of them to chat, I can see where Sonja would think it would be at Dorinda's. She would have had some time to plead her case. Sonja just refuses to accept the fact that she has screwed the pooch as far as Bethenny is concerned.

Ramona calls him lost, Mario calls it freedom! LOL

motorcitymom65 · June 15, 2016

5 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

Monday night Bravo aired another "Uncensored" show. This time it was Season 8 of the RHOC. I bring it up as the producers focused on the demise of Gretchen. They she was out of stories and she had no children or husband and the Slade engagement thing was questionable at best. I immediately thought of Carole with no storylines, her biggie last year was picking up some of her late husband's ashes. Her secondary storyline was fighting with Luann over a man/boy. There was Gretchen delighting at Tamra running off Alexia and the producer mentioned it was the beginning of the end of Gretchen's friendship with both Tamra and Alexis. I thought there were a lot of correlations between the two situations. Carole has given us four seasons of mediocre drivel, almost caused the demise of the entire franchise with coma inducing Bookgate and now has Bethenny fighting her battles and by consenting to do so has signed on to be up Ramona's butt as well. The threesome is a scary alliance.

There is just nothing to Carole and Adam's relationship on camera or anything remotely interesting watching Carole ready herself to write a vegan cookbook. Writing a book has never made for good reality TV and Carole and Adam won't change this. I guess Carole's big contribution will be watching her foster kittens. Maybe we will get to watch her clean a litter box or scold Baby, her dog, for eating cat turds, when Adam isn't quick enough to get them out of the litter.

Whatever the course, she and Bethenny leading the charge of segregated filming usually leads to one or other being eliminated. The I won't go if Luann goes, and Bethenny adding I won't go if Carole won't go is beyond sophomoric and I am not sure how Bravo is going to shoot around Carole's arrogance.

I loved the OC Uncensored show Monday night. There is nothing like hearing from actual production about things that happened behind the scenes. They really let Gretchen have it.

The problem with Gretchen was that she alienated the entire cast with her fake storylines and she didn't have a single friend on the show. That is a recipe for getting kicked off. I don't think the point about her not having "anything going on" as Tamra said was as much about the fact that she had no life, but about the fact that after Tamra told her that, Gretchen planned the fake engagement scene and didn't invite the others. They all knew it was fake because she was telling them off camera they couldn't get married, yet planning this big deal on camera.

Carole might not have had much of a story last season, but what she had with Adam seemed real, and it became the major plot line for the season. What did anyone else have going on last season? Ramona was getting a divorce, but that was it. Dorinda had conflict about John, but that was it. This year it's pretty much the same thing. What on earth does Ramona have for a story? What does Dorinda have that is different from last year? Sonja strikes me as the closest to Gretchen, simply because they all know the shit she starts isn't real, and she just keeps using it season after season. The saving grace for her in the past has been that she has support from the rest of the cast. If they all hate her, and she has to fake her way through the show, she will be done as well. The reality is, for all that we talk about no one having a storyline, that has become the recipe for the entire show. It becomes more about reacting to the others vs. actually having anything of their own going on.

motorcitymom65 · June 15, 2016

7 hours ago, seasick said:

Geezes that's even worse! So Aviva (I almost said "poor Aviva" --will wash mouth) actually went to her as a fan and got kicked in the teeth. What a shit. Carole was so threatened by even Aviva with her email stories-- she's so pathetic. No wonder Aviva became rabid.

The stuff with Aviva and Carole might have felt entirely different had we not seen bat-shit crazy, evil Aviva before. She showed her ass the season before. Carole didn't make her become rabid that season. All it took was the absence of a banner welcoming her and her raging insecurities and expectations to make her attack Ramona and Sonja in a manner similar to the way that Beth attacked Lu. No matter what Carole does, or how much people like/don't like her now, it doesn't change what we all saw with Aviva. She was almost universally detested, even by people who didn't much care for Carole, because her terrible behavior didn't just impact Carole. There is no getting away from the fact that no HW can survive on these shows if pretty much everyone in the cast hates them. And if everyone does hate them, there is generally a reason for that. We heard the story last season that Aviva refused to go on the group trips unless she was guaranteed a contract for the next season. She was a Diva (even more than the others) and didn't play well with others.

Yours Truly · June 15, 2016

14 hours ago, RHJunkie said:

I picked up that vibe from the get go as well. I thought it was interesting that Carole and Luann's rocky relationship in the beginning was due to Carole thinking that Luann mentioning having the same kind of coat or whatever was Luann's attempt at one-upping her. I think that's a perfect example of her snap judgment. Upon meeting the other women she was introduced to the notion of a snobbish Luann who behaves as fake royalty and so she would be jealous when she would meet a real princess. That's why I think those small comments became a much larger issue for Carole - she was operating under the context that was given to her rather than having honest interaction so that she could decide for herself. I can relate to Luann in that instance because I often relate back similarities to others when getting to know them or having conversation because I think it's an effortless way to connect with someone. It's certainly not to put the spotlight on me (and no one has ever reacted that way to me as Carole did toward Luann) but to highlight commonalities that make possible conversation topics a lot more effortless.

Aviva acted stupid in her own right but I can see that vibe. Carole was offended from the get go and it went downhill really quickly.

Exactly. Basically Carole is the type of person I really don't like. You see I grew up with a set of girlfriends (who later became sister in laws, YIKES and long story) who pulled this cliquey behavior. There were four of the us including me and I ended up the after thought of the group for lack of a better word.. I got older and established myself a bit more within the friendships and became more sturdy and confidence in their presence. Thing is they never really stopped certain habits, I just got better at laughing with them instead of being laughed at and I would give it back too so a balance was sort of created but not 100% because it's not in my nature to get a laugh at someone's expense so sometimes I would just let certain things go by with an eyeroll and a whatever completely secure in myself cause hells bells we were adults with children so it really isn't the end of the world.

Anyway, it was still a bit toxic and I would notice that they were the types to talk about their friends to other people. Like I would meet one of their friends (we are now in our 30's and we're in laws at this point) and I could tell that they would now way more about me and my business than they should. They would share knowing looks or interact with me with a little more familiarity than I would expect, ya know? They were a little too "in on" the joke when they would maybe rib on me about something.

Now here's my point. Because I dealt with the likes of my sisters in law I counted on people being NOT like Carole. NOT allowing my sisters in law to taint their impressions of me and sure as hell not allow what they've told them about me affect the way they treated me. Some of these friends took liberties and were quick to join in on some of the not so nice habits that over the years were already worked out between me and my sisters in law. Kinda like Teresa and Melissa. Families, family we've said our piece to each other and we've checked each other as well and some stuff goes by cause whatever "fuck you, ha ha, what's for dinner". Easy breezy. But when you have the likes of people like Carole who decide to shit on you just because of bias stories others feed you and not by genuinely assessing your interactions with a person then I think you're shitty. My sisters in law used to misrepresent shit to other people all the time and prep them for what to watch for and instead of seeing my behavior for what it was in the moment my behavior became confirmation for some tale they've already planted in their heads. My actions were always misconstrued and there was always tension with friends of theirs but I took it in stride cause I was used to my sister in laws. And unlike Carole I have mastered the skill of zero fucks. LOL.

What it boils down to is that Carole doesn't have a mind of her own. That's why half the time she seems like a little lost person without much substances. She's boring this season? Why? Because she doesn't have interesting Heather distracting us from the fact that the girls got no real opinions on anything that isn't already out there in the world. If it's not about being PC it's about Lu's etiquette, it's about being a cougar, it's about zero fucks, it's about anything that DOESN'T originate from her own brain. She lives theme by theme with writers block in between. Hell even her career was based on being feed information and distributing it in a concise and understanding way. While impressive doesn't help with her having her own MIND. Her reactions are based on what she thinks reactions should be. Her behavior is based on the alliances she has. She's pretty vapid that one which hey not that big of a deal but when you let other people fill your head about how someone should be treated... well, that my dear is just pathetic. AND to be sooooo superior and condescending to boot?? When there's nothing floating around up there but second hand information and piggy back mentality. Girl bye.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Yours Truly

Yours Truly · June 15, 2016

13 hours ago, lunastartron said:

Carole's behavior at the luncheon that sparked BookGate was the ne plus ultra of odiousness to me. I thought it was clear that she was determined from jump to publicly shit all over Aviva. Way before any substantive conversation transpired, she was already making faces and grimacing at the most innocuous social vacuities. Then, after Aviva denied employing a gw (a matter which has no impact on Carole), she literally rolled her eyes and sneered "that was a letter to your mother" when Aviva referenced her Chicken Soup essay. All of that occurred before Aviva even intimated that Carole might have used a gw herself. It was astonishing that Carole felt the need to and no compunction about transparently denigrating the professional hobbyism of an acquaintance/former friend. If anyone had sighed that What Remains was "a diary entry" about *Carole's* dead loved one, we'd still be hearing about it. Her display was so unnecessarily ugly. Which is why I had no problem with Aviva responding in kind.

Glad to hear someone else saw it too. Carole had an "oh please" attitude the minute she sat down to talk to Aviva. Her tone and body language was all sorts of rude. You could tell that she was already offended that Aviva "had the nerve" to think that she could just wake up one day and think she could do what Carole does. That was at the crux of it all. Carole felt that Aviva's quaint approach to writing undermined Carole's accomplishments. Sort of like, "you thinking you could just spit out a book suggests that it's just that easy which in turn would suggest that it didn't take much for ME to put out MY book". That's what all that was stemming from and Carole let her animosity over the whole idea out during that lunch. You can see Aviva is caught off guard by her abrasiveness.

Also, Carole is the one that asked about a Ghost writer and Aviva said no. Then Carole continued with her condescending tone about it. Within that exchange I recall Aviva finding Caroles disbelief odd and in order to counter Carole's obvious implication that the only way Aviva could write a book would be with a Ghost Writer was by asking if she used a Ghost Writer for her FIRST book? During that first exchange Aviva never suggested she DID use one. She was just using it to point out to Carole that even though What Remains was her FIRST book she didn't use a Ghost Writer so it's not unusual for someone who is on their first book to write it without using that method.

It wasn't until afterward that Aviva decided to pick up that ball and run with it since Carole chose to make it such a big deal. That's when Aviva started sinking her teeth into that bit of information and started siting "word on the street"... Kinda like when Lu uses the whole Skinnygirl naming to rib Beth. Lu referring to being there was originally done innocently and without intending to take credit for anything but once Beth spun it into some slight that was way misconstrued Lu started letting it float in the air just to needle Beth since Beth had decided to come for her with that nonsense. Problem with the way Aviva handled it is that she took it too far and tried to actually make it truth whereas Lu had no intentions of trying to actually prove she came up with the name. Aviva shot herself in the foot with that whole thing.

Carole's whole deal with Aviva was yet another example of how Carole thinks it's her place to validate someone or their efforts.

Beth operates this way as well.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Yours Truly

Yours Truly · June 15, 2016

9 hours ago, seasick said:

Geezes that's even worse! So Aviva (I almost said "poor Aviva" --will wash mouth) actually went to her as a fan and got kicked in the teeth. What a shit. Carole was so threatened by even Aviva with her email stories-- she's so pathetic. No wonder Aviva became rabid.

I know right. I can't help but think of the similarities between Beth and Sonja. Skinnygirl vs Tipsy Girl....

Almost 3000 · June 15, 2016

7 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

I guess Carole's big contribution will be watching her foster kittens. Maybe we will get to watch her clean a litter box or scold Baby, her dog, for eating cat turds, when Adam isn't quick enough to get them out of the litter.

ha! Yes, having Baby happily coming up to Carole with kitty litter on its muzzle and cat poop breath would be riveting TV. (not that that's ever happened to me...)

RHJunkie · June 15, 2016

23 minutes ago, Yours Truly said:

Exactly. Basically Carole is the type of person I really don't like. You see I grew up with a set of girlfriends (who later became sister in laws, YIKES and long story) who pulled this cliquey behavior. There were four of the us including me and I ended up the after thought of the group for lack of a better word.. I got older and established myself a bit more within the friendships and became more sturdy and confidence in their presence. Thing is they never really stopped certain habits, I just got better at laughing with them instead of being laughed at and I would give it back too so a balance was sort of created but not 100% because it's not in my nature to get a laugh at someone's expense so sometimes I would just let certain things go by with an eyeroll and a whatever completely secure in myself cause hells bells we were adults with children so it really isn't the end of the world.

Anyway, it was still a bit toxic and I would notice that they were the types to talk about their friends to other people. Like I would meet one of their friends (we are now in our 30's and we're in laws at this point) and I could tell that they would now way more about me and my business than they should. They would share knowing looks or interact with me with a little more familiarity than I would expect, ya know? They were a little too "in on" the joke when they would maybe rib on me about something.

Now here's my point. Because I dealt with the likes of my sisters in law I counted on people being NOT like Carole. NOT allowing my sisters in law to taint their impressions of me and sure as hell not allow what they've told them about me affect the way they treated me. Some of these friends took liberties and were quick to join in on some of the not so nice habits that over the years were already worked out between me and my sisters in law. Kinda like Teresa and Melissa. Families, family we've said our piece to each other and we've checked each other as well and some stuff goes by cause whatever "fuck you, ha ha, what's for dinner". Easy breezy. But when you have the likes of people like Carole who decide to shit on you just because of bias stories others feed you and not by genuinely assessing your interactions with a person then I think you're shitty. My sisters in law used to misrepresent shit to other people all the time and prep them for what to watch for and instead of seeing my behavior for what it was in the moment my behavior became confirmation for some tale they've already planted in their heads. My actions were always misconstrued and there was always tension with friends of theirs but I took it in stride cause I was used to my sister in laws. And unlike Carole I have mastered the skill of zero fucks. LOL.

What it boils down to is that Carole doesn't have a mind of her own. That's why half the time she seems like a little lost person without much substances. She's boring this season? Why? Because she doesn't have interesting Heather distracting us from the fact that the girls got no real opinions on anything that isn't already out there in the world. If it's not about being PC it's about Lu's etiquette, it's about being a cougar, it's about zero fucks, it's about anything that DOESN'T originate from her own brain. She lives theme by theme with writers block in between. Hell even her career was based on being feed information and distributing it in a concise and understanding way. While impressive doesn't help with her having her own MIND. Her reactions are based on what she thinks reactions should be. Her behavior is based on the alliances she has. She's pretty vapid that one which hey not that big of a deal but when you let other people fill your head about how someone should be treated... well, that my dear is just pathetic. AND to be sooooo superior and condescending to boot?? When there's nothing floating around up there but second hand information and piggy back mentality. Girl bye.

I'm happy to hear that you've adjusted yourself to the behaviours around you so that you aren't insecure about the way others choose to behave! It's incredibly draining and insecure to be a slave to other people's opinions and feelings. Carole is not honest or fair and this incident that has revealed her level of cattiness and victimizing herself seems to be an unfolding of the smaller signs that were present from the get go.

I couldn't remember exactly how her issue with Aviva began but my memory was recalling that Aviva's reaction was due to the way Carole spoke to her about her book. I think it was just the tone and vibe Carole was giving off. Nice to see that I wasn't completely dreaming that up.

seasick · June 15, 2016

7 minutes ago, Yours Truly said:

Glad to hear someone else saw it too. Carole had an "oh please" attitude the minute she sat down to talk to Aviva. Her tone and body language was all sorts of rude. You could tell that she was already offended that Aviva "had the nerve" to think that she could just wake up one day and think she could do what Carole does. That was at the crux of it all. Carole felt that Aviva's quaint approach to writing undermined Carole's accomplishments. Sort of like, "you thinking you could just spit out a book suggests that it's just that easy which in turn would suggest that it didn't take much for ME to put out MY book". That's what all that was stemming from and Carole let her animosity over the whole idea out during that lunch. You can see Aviva is caught off guard by her abrasiveness.

Also, Carole is the one that asked about a Ghost writer and Aviva said no. Then Carole continued with her condescending tone about it. Within that exchange I recall Aviva finding Caroles disbelief odd and in order to counter Carole's obvious implication that the only way Aviva could write a book would be with a Ghost Writer was by asking if she used a Ghost Writer for her FIRST book? During that first exchange Aviva never suggested she DID use one. She was just using it to point out to Carole that even though What Remains was her FIRST book she didn't use a Ghost Writer so it's not unusual for someone who is on their first book to write it without using that method.

It wasn't until afterward that Aviva decided to pick up that ball and run with it since Carole chose to make it such a big deal. That's when Aviva started sinking her teeth into that bit of information and started siting "word on the street"... Kinda like when Lu uses the whole Skinnygirl naming to rib Beth. Lu referring to being there was originally done innocently and without intending to take credit for anything but once Beth spun it into some slight that was way misconstrued Lu started letting it float in the air just to needle Beth since Beth had decided to come for her with that nonsense. Problem with the way Aviva handled it is that she took it too far and tried to actually make it truth whereas Lu had no intentions of trying to actually prove she came up with the name. Aviva shot herself in the foot with that whole thing.

Carole's whole deal with Aviva was yet another example of how Carole thinks it's her place to validate someone or their efforts.

Beth operates this way as well.

Yes yes! You described Carole's snotty indignation and belittling just as I remember it and said it way better than I could. Carole's little dig about Aviva needing a ghost writer was the trigger. *If* there had been previous talk during hiatus about Aviva asking Carole to find her a ghost writer, then Carole was betraying a trust they had off camera--but frankly, I don't believe that that was the case as to why Carole said it. (I don't believe that talk happened) Now i'm not *quite* sure Aviva's shoot back asking Carole if she used a ghost writer was all that innocent in simply suggesting 'of course not--see-- it's not always necessary' or if it was to return the insult, but i do agree Aviva pounded it into the ground once she got her teeth into it. Beating Carole with her own stick was satisfying, but Aviva went to far. Had she done the LuAnn dance that she does with Beth it would have been way more effective.

Trooper York · June 15, 2016

Wow! I woke up this morning and there is post after post bashing Carole! It's like Christmas in June!

I love youse guys!!!!!!

Yours Truly · June 15, 2016

30 minutes ago, RHJunkie said:

I'm happy to hear that you've adjusted yourself to the behaviours around you so that you aren't insecure about the way others choose to behave! It's incredibly draining and insecure to be a slave to other people's opinions and feelings. Carole is not honest or fair and this incident that has revealed her level of cattiness and victimizing herself seems to be an unfolding of the smaller signs that were present from the get go.

I couldn't remember exactly how her issue with Aviva began but my memory was recalling that Aviva's reaction was due to the way Carole spoke to her about her book. I think it was just the tone and vibe Carole was giving off. Nice to see that I wasn't completely dreaming that up.

Thanks,

This is why I can't stand when people can't find resolution. As adults, being able to shift and be flexible just in the name of adulting shouldn't be so damn hard. It's these rock hard stances some of the women make that are soooo ridiculous. We would wouldn't tolerate even the slightest from our children (although now a days, with such an entitlement problem who know) but nevertheless. Carole doesn't like someone, something, or has bad feelings about something. I'm all about validating someone's feelings about something. Can't stand being dismissed but for someone who can never bring herself to validate anyone else or there feelings for her to be holding on to her petty little bruised ego like a dog with a bone just makes be want to punch her in her buck gums! Just saying!

Moving beyond hurdles is what adulting is all about. Not marinating in it while shoving laced gummy bears into your unfortunately shaped gorge.

zoeysmom · June 15, 2016

2 hours ago, motorcitymom65 said:

I loved the OC Uncensored show Monday night. There is nothing like hearing from actual production about things that happened behind the scenes. They really let Gretchen have it.

The problem with Gretchen was that she alienated the entire cast with her fake storylines and she didn't have a single friend on the show. That is a recipe for getting kicked off. I don't think the point about her not having "anything going on" as Tamra said was as much about the fact that she had no life, but about the fact that after Tamra told her that, Gretchen planned the fake engagement scene and didn't invite the others. They all knew it was fake because she was telling them off camera they couldn't get married, yet planning this big deal on camera.

Carole might not have had much of a story last season, but what she had with Adam seemed real, and it became the major plot line for the season. What did anyone else have going on last season? Ramona was getting a divorce, but that was it. Dorinda had conflict about John, but that was it. This year it's pretty much the same thing. What on earth does Ramona have for a story? What does Dorinda have that is different from last year? Sonja strikes me as the closest to Gretchen, simply because they all know the shit she starts isn't real, and she just keeps using it season after season. The saving grace for her in the past has been that she has support from the rest of the cast. If they all hate her, and she has to fake her way through the show, she will be done as well. The reality is, for all that we talk about no one having a storyline, that has become the recipe for the entire show. It becomes more about reacting to the others vs. actually having anything of their own going on.

I would think if they did a NY (different production company than OC and BH) they would do Season 3 with a follow up of Season 6-when Aviva exited. I agree Gretchen left herself friendless, but the Malibu Country wasn't her fault and she was a fool for working overtime to get rid Alexis and to try and keep a wedge between Tamra and Vicki. That is why you won't see Ramona try and rally against Luann and Sonja. That and the fact if Ramona is stuck on a vacation without Sonja or Luann, she is not happy or entertaining and it either becomes about Ramona being the selfish pig she has shown herself to be or a marathon Bethenny monologue with Carole just sitting there with her mouth open nodding her head.

Carole has said there is no ever after between she and Adam, the guy doesn't really work (shades of Slade), hasn't Carole said Adam really doesn't want to be on the show? So as real (with a calendar attached) as may seem if the viewers don't see it, it doesn't matter. At least Bethenny tried to blame someone else for not bringing her man around (Luann). I guess Carole, Ramona can tag onto the Luann excuse.

The thing about Ramona, is she has events and invites everyone. She has had her birthday lunch, her holiday party, ruined Carole's medium moment, Dorinda's bra party, John's party. Even when she is not suppose to be somewhere she gets in front of the cameras. Same with Dorinda she has parties, apparently her storyline this year is who she didn't invite. I think Dorinda has been fairly real that she is 50 years old and she is not going to let the other women tell her who to date.

Carole, of no storyline, can't have it both ways, no storyline and refuse to include others. That is what I meant by the comparison to Gretchen. Gretchen was the one being shown to try and ice not one but two people out, first Alexis then Vicki. Carole is going after Luann with a secondary Sonja target.

The other thing that is never brought up whatever happened to Carole and the TV show based off her novel? The one she bragged about being involved in nd having to be on the west coast? Carole has had two endeavors, a novel, which did not make expectations and a TV show that didn't make it to pilot.

motorcitymom65 · June 15, 2016

21 minutes ago, zoeysmom said:

The thing about Ramona, is she has events and invites everyone. She has had her birthday lunch, her holiday party, ruined Carole's medium moment, Dorinda's bra party, John's party. Even when she is not suppose to be somewhere she gets in front of the cameras. Same with Dorinda she has parties, apparently her storyline this year is who she didn't invite. I think Dorinda has been fairly real that she is 50 years old and she is not going to let the other women tell her who to date.

Carole, of no storyline, can't have it both ways, no storyline and refuse to include others. That is what I meant by the comparison to Gretchen. Gretchen was the one being shown to try and ice not one but two people out, first Alexis then Vicki. Carole is going after Luann with a secondary Sonja target.

I agree about Ramona. This is what makes her such an excellent HW. She is a firm believer in including everyone. No better way to keep the drama moving (the confrontations will always take place in the big group events), and to make sure all of her events get filmed. That is why she is probably better at this than anyone else and she will keep her apple. I like that for the benefit of the how. Of course she was fine with her former BFF Sonja not being invited to Dorinda's, saying she needed to stay behind and work on herself. I always like the HW's best that don't play the game that way, although they no doubt have other motives as well. Give me Kyle not inviting Taylor to Hawaii because it would cause unnecessary drama and the others didn't want her there because of the lawsuit threat, not inviting Carlton to PR because she hated her, Heather not inviting Alexis because she thought she was a bitch and didn't want her in her home, or Heather T not inviting Ramona to London because she is offensive. We want this shit to be real, but whenever a person acts like someone would in real life - like not wanting to be around people that they hate - it causes issues. I've never had a problem with anyone not being included, but will say that the deal with Sonja not being included in Dorinda's event seemed harsh to me. In most of the other cases the person not being included had issues with the hostess (or a majority of the rest of the cast). In this case Dorinda had no issues with Sonja, but did it only to make Beth happy. That is all on Dorinda, IMO.

Edited June 15, 2016 by motorcitymom65

Trooper York · June 15, 2016

There really is no reason for Carole to be on the show. Other than to be Bethenny's echo. Carole is her only friend. If you term a butt kissing lickspittle a friend.

Bethenny actually has a problem with every other woman on the show. She is fighting with Luann about Skinny Girl. She has it in for Sonja because of Tipsy Girl. She is always fighting with Dorinda because she is John's girl. She has to mock Jules because she is the new Girl.

What's Bethenny's problem with women? Do you see a pattern here?

Yours Truly · June 15, 2016

1 hour ago, seasick said:

Yes yes! You described Carole's snotty indignation and belittling just as I remember it and said it way better than I could. Carole's little dig about Aviva needing a ghost writer was the trigger. *If* there had been previous talk during hiatus about Aviva asking Carole to find her a ghost writer, then Carole was betraying a trust they had off camera--but frankly, I don't believe that that was the case as to why Carole said it. (I don't believe that talk happened) Now i'm not *quite* sure Aviva's shoot back asking Carole if she used a ghost writer was all that innocent in simply suggesting 'of course not--see-- it's not always necessary' or if it was to return the insult, but i do agree Aviva pounded it into the ground once she got her teeth into it. Beating Carole with her own stick was satisfying, but Aviva went to far. Had she done the LuAnn dance that she does with Beth it would have been way more effective.

Even if she did ask Carole about GW's off season when Aviva said no that should have been the end of it. So this reasoning that Carole was referring to it because of that and then reacting negatively because Carole "knew" Aviva was looking into Ghost writers doesn't mean she actually used one. Regardless, this is an example of Carole not validating someone so that means Carole gets to, what?, out Aviva or whatever? I mean, nothing in that exchange warranted Carole's nasty demeanor. Whether or not Aviva was playing her part and setting up her own little story for the season and Carole was thinking "what a crock of shit" what the fuck? Who fucking cares? Carole just decided nope, I'm not gonna play. Like she didn't know this is what the jobs entails.

I'm really started to hate this narrative that the women aren't cool with the fake, or the this the that, wanting to call people out cause of this that and the other. But it looks ridiculous cause THAT'S WHAT THE SHOW IS ABOUT. Interacting with each other and offering up something worthwhile during filming. Each one of them decides what they want to go for and offer up during filming and just because it doesn't fit another housewives idea of what path they should be on doesn't mean it should automatically be open season on this housewife or that. ITS NOT THAT SERIOUS. It's the outrage I'll never understand. Like seriously? Collect your fucking paycheck and shut the hell up. No one is asking you to lie at confession, sacrifice live chickens or give up your first born so what the hell is the BIG? It's really starting to look like a behind the scenes take on stuff with the wives revolting and wanting not to participate in what the show entails. You know the show that they sign contracts to be on knowing full well what goes on. It's fucking maddening.

What I don't like are these blanket decisions to go after another housewife or treat another wife poorly just because they have had unfortunate interactions with them in the past. Considering that a lot of their conflicts are so contrived for the sake of the show and they KNOW IT, I am completely disgusted when any of them take their vitriol to the degrees they take it. Some don't. Some try to take it in hand and some genuinely fail. It's the one's that gleefully go full speed ahead using some golden momentt as an excuse to go HAM on one of the others and take no prisoners. That's what makes me want to beat the shit out of someone. When they let it get out of hand and they go for real aspects of someone's life based on so much that they know is contrived for the show! That's when I get red with anger. Yeah, I know that the reactions are real but at the same time their wounds are based off of the gambles they knowingly participate at the start. It isn't just the person they are in conflicts fault. It's like getting in the ring with someone and then taking it personally and holding a grudge after the fight when that person knocks you out. You got in the ring knowing full well what the premise was. Just because you left the ring with a few less teeth (which would probably work in Carole's favor, just sayin) doesn't mean you don't hold any kind of responsibility for the outcome. Sheesh!

Beth is the top culprit of taking a seed of conflict specifically planted for the show and trying to turn it into some legitimate outrage that justifies her evil and deliberate attack on these women in real time and holding grudges that linger well beyond the scope of the housewives.

Carole takes storylines and decides that it's a legitimate slap in the face to her and her profession and wages war on Aviva when in actuality it's all par for the course and instead of putting that whatever, eyeroll giggle to good use which would have for once been an appropriate reaction when dealing with Aviva's needing advice for her book spiel she went on mean girl attack.

And in turn Aviva went way too far with her whole word on the street movement.

These women KNOW it's all about the storyline so when they allow it to get away from them and allow themselves to be so but hurt it annoys the shit outta me but what pisses me off more is when they run around all indignant and lash out or go on attack as if there is some real scorn they are protecting themselves from and not some bullshit producer driven drivel that took on a life of it's own and went way left. Sure be mad. But be mad at the right people. Include YOURSELF in that list and understand the proportion of fault among all the players.

I have to say Kandi does this the best. Kandi is a good example of someone who knows that during filming shit has the potential to hit the fan so be damn careful and mindful about what comes out ya mouth. Production will drive whatever they can to the brink, some of the wives will run with that recipe and outside unknowns will shake shit up but good so always be in control of what YOU give the cameras. What conversations you allow yourself to be caught up and filmed in and make sure your responses in certain group activities are measured. She's not perfect and she does falter but her mistakes usually come across as genuine and she's never upped the ante and clapped back just for the sake of upping the drama for ratings. Basically she's one of the few Bravo HW's that isn't a dancing monkey and she's also never given me the impression that she suffers from crocodile tears syndrome triggered by on-cameraitis.

When the wives decide to take what is actually a resolvable conflict that's been hyped up by the show, production and the need to be dancing monkeys and try to sell it as the worse crimes against humanity which someone MUST pay for .... that just makes it so transparent who is truly blood thirsty and who's there for the food, trips, fun and paycheck. Sonja and Lu are there for the money and the trips and the fun and the exposure. Beth is there for exposure, branding, and blood. Carole is there for wherever the mood takes her since she has no actual thought process of her own and I guess the more exciting option catches her attention (blood thirst) cause it's exciting enough to wake her buck gummed bobble head up long enough to spew indignation to those she feels aren't worthy... Worthy for what? Have to ask her but whooopssss..... she's fallen asleep again...

1 hour ago, Trooper York said:

Wow! I woke up this morning and there is post after post bashing Carole! It's like Christmas in June!

I love youse guys!!!!!!

Happy to oblige!

Edited June 15, 2016 by Yours Truly

shoegal · June 15, 2016

9 hours ago, aradia22 said:

It's one thing if Carole never wants to forgive Luann. Fine. Whatever. But stop harping on the sincerity of her apologies. I agree, how many times does she have to apologize... especially if you have no intention of ever forgiving her?

The first time Carole spoke to LuAnn after the reunion was at Bethenny's Hamptons party, and LuAnn did not apologize. In the Berkshires, she sent an insincere (and insulting IMO) half assed apology, only after LuAnn got her ass handed to her by Bethenny did LuAnn make an attempt at a sincere(ish) apology to Carole. I don't blame Carole one bit for her sincere(ish) acceptance of it. LuAnn's whole MO is fake it for the camera's dahhhhling, and Carole knows it.

PS-doesn't Bookgate belong in another thread??

Edited June 15, 2016 by shoegal

Yours Truly · June 15, 2016

6 minutes ago, shoegal said:

The first time Carole spoke to LuAnn after the reunion was at Bethenny's Hamptons party, and LuAnn did not apologize. In the Berkshires, she sent an insincere (and insulting IMO) half assed apology, only after LuAnn got her ass handed to her by Bethenny did LuAnn make an attempt at a sincere(ish) apology to Carole. I don't blame Carole one bit for her sincere(ish) acceptance of it. LuAnn's whole MO is fake it for the camera's dahhhhling, and Carole knows it.

PS-doesn't Bookgate belong in another thread??

Bookgate helps paint Carole as the nasty piece of shit she is in relation to her shitty behavior in this episode, show, life... LOL.

New episode tonight anyway so... <shrug>

shoegal · June 15, 2016

38 minutes ago, Yours Truly said:

Bookgate helps paint Carole as the nasty piece of shit she is in relation to her shitty behavior in this episode, show, life... LOL.

New episode tonight anyway so... <shrug>

So then it should be acceptable for Carole and Bethenny to rehash old Countess shit with LuAnn, in order to help paint what a nasty piece of shit LuAnn is...good for the goose and all.

Edited June 15, 2016 by shoegal

RedheadZombie · June 15, 2016

Yikes! This thread has become quite unpleasant. Excited for a new episode tonight, as well as new comments. How many times can the same thing be said?

Trooper York · June 15, 2016

Bethenny and Carole should bring that stuff up. Because that is all they got. Luann seems to be happy and loving her life. That burns Bethenny's ass. Her minion Carole has to pile on because what else can she do? Skype her pretend boyfriend who is too busy eating his sandwich to talk to her?

Carole needs Luann for her storyline. Otherwise she will have to adopt a turtle or something.

Yours Truly · June 15, 2016

18 minutes ago, shoegal said:

So then it should be acceptable for Carole and Bethenny to rehash old Countess shit with LuAnn, in order to help paint what a nasty piece of shit LuAnn is...good for the goose and all.

I was talking about the discussion here. That's the purpose here. Their purpose is to move along with the show, the roles, the stories, the times, the parties, the fun.. They need to move it along so that we can...

Besides anything that shows how terribly disgusting Carole and her buck gums are from the tips of her toes to the top of her head is completely giddy, giddy, fairy dust territory for me. So I'm all for it. :-)

Edited June 15, 2016 by Yours Truly

zoeysmom · June 15, 2016

1 hour ago, motorcitymom65 said:

I agree about Ramona. This is what makes her such an excellent HW. She is a firm believer in including everyone. No better way to keep the drama moving (the confrontations will always take place in the big group events), and to make sure all of her events get filmed. That is why she is probably better at this than anyone else and she will keep her apple. I like that for the benefit of the how. Of course she was fine with her former BFF Sonja not being invited to Dorinda's, saying she needed to stay behind and work on herself. I always like the HW's best that don't play the game that way, although they no doubt have other motives as well. Give me Kyle not inviting Taylor to Hawaii because it would cause unnecessary drama and the others didn't want her there because of the lawsuit threat, not inviting Carlton to PR because she hated her, Heather not inviting Alexis because she thought she was a bitch and didn't want her in her home, or Heather T not inviting Ramona to London because she is offensive. We want this shit to be real, but whenever a person acts like someone would in real life - like not wanting to be around people that they hate - it causes issues. I've never had a problem with anyone not being included, but will say that the deal with Sonja not being included in Dorinda's event seemed harsh to me. In most of the other cases the person not being included had issues with the hostess (or a majority of the rest of the cast). In this case Dorinda had no issues with Sonja, but did it only to make Beth happy. That is all on Dorinda, IMO.

You gave excellent examples of what it takes for someone not be invited or have their invitation rescinded. With Taylor that was a given, Ken and Lisa blamed Kyle for inviting Brandi, knowing Brandi was friends with Cedric, Carlton disinviting Kyle to her event.

The bigger issue for me, is when they cloud things. I believe Bethenny's Berkshires BBQ was suppose to be the season opener and that Sonja advised production she could not make it, Ramona didn't stay long and Bethenny made some offhanded comment about Luann RSVPing before being invited. (Now it will be Luann forced her way on a trip.) So Ramona used it as an opportunity to show Sonja was being excluded from Bethenny's world, which an arrogant Bethenny refuted but then claimed it was because she had not seen Sonja in months. What I find unbelievable about the initial uninvites is when they filmed the Reunion last year July 7th, they all went out to dinner afterwards. I think in the case of Bethenny she is just trying to produce the show and feels with the absences of others she can make it a more Bethenny-centric show. The year before, Ramona was trying to change the T&C trip for Bethenny, and Heather would not hear of it (good for Heather). When Sonja and Ramona wanted to bypass Bethenny's salad, she went ballistic. To me offering to make lunch or telling everyone you are making lunch doesn't mean they are impolite for wanting to go somewhere else. Preferably somewhere, where the chef wears clothes and doesn't cook and serve in a bikini. (Just gross.)

So like any franchises before the lack of extending the invitation, I believe, is back up material in case the trip is a dud.

shoegal · June 15, 2016

6 minutes ago, Yours Truly said:

I was talking about the discussion here. That's the purpose here. Their purpose is to move along with the show, the roles, the stories, the times, the parties, the fun.. They need to move it along so that we can...

Besides anything that shows how terribly disgusting Carole and her buck gums are from the tips of her toes to the top of her head is completely giddy, giddy, fairy dust territory for me. So I'm all for it. :-)

Well, that's my point, the discussion here is the recent episode, there are threads for past seasons and Carole specifically to rehash bookgate ad nauseum.

Speaking of this episode, I love love love that Carole and Bethenny called the Countess out on all of her shit and laid her bare. LuAnn is a nasty, sanctimonious fake ass bitch in a cheap lace jumpsuit. Daaaahhhhhling....

RHJunkie · June 15, 2016

58 minutes ago, shoegal said:

The first time Carole spoke to LuAnn after the reunion was at Bethenny's Hamptons party, and LuAnn did not apologize. In the Berkshires, she sent an insincere (and insulting IMO) half assed apology, only after LuAnn got her ass handed to her by Bethenny did LuAnn make an attempt at a sincere(ish) apology to Carole. I don't blame Carole one bit for her sincere(ish) acceptance of it. LuAnn's whole MO is fake it for the camera's dahhhhling, and Carole knows it.

PS-doesn't Bookgate belong in another thread??

I don't blame Carole if she chooses to accept or not accept an apology but I do blame Carole or expecting an apology without any intention of offering her own up. She is not an innocent. Making claims that Luann started it or said something that she categorizes as 'worse' than what she said about Luann doesn't cut it. Carole doesn't get to draw her own definitions of 'insulting' or 'disparaging' just so that she can stand on the side where she gets to be the victim needing an apology. Carole is no more authentic than Luann. She is a byproduct of the people she keeps in her lives. At her age, she goes through her phrases because she is constantly influenced by others around her. That is fake. I would bet money that had Heather stayed this season, no way Carole would be co-signing or instigating gossip about the slutty Luann in Heather's presence. Nope, she has a willing dance partner in Bethenny so she does it and does it all the time...but she's so over it *insert eye roll here*.

shoegal · June 15, 2016

7 minutes ago, RHJunkie said:

I don't blame Carole if she chooses to accept or not accept an apology but I do blame Carole or expecting an apology without any intention of offering her own up. She is not an innocent. Making claims that Luann started it or said something that she categorizes as 'worse' than what she said about Luann doesn't cut it. Carole doesn't get to draw her own definitions of 'insulting' or 'disparaging' just so that she can stand on the side where she gets to be the victim needing an apology. Carole is no more authentic than Luann. She is a byproduct of the people she keeps in her lives. At her age, she goes through her phrases because she is constantly influenced by others around her. That is fake. I would bet money that had Heather stayed this season, no way Carole would be co-signing or instigating gossip about the slutty Luann in Heather's presence. Nope, she has a willing dance partner in Bethenny so she does it and does it all the time...but she's so over it *insert eye roll here*.

I can see that point, but I do think there is something to be said for the fact that LuAnn did start it, she got nasty with Carole because Carole was dating Adam, not because of something that Carole did to LuAnn. Did Carole retaliate? Yes, and in these kinds of situations I feel like Carole will only see her behavior as defensive until she feels that LuAnn is sincerely sorry and she can put down her defenses. Carole still has her guard up against LuAnn because she's not sure if the assault is over. If the two can truly get over it and become friendly again, I would expect Carole to apologize for her part. As far as Carole's recent behavior, I don't think Heather's presence would make a difference as LuAnn and Heather also have issues with what went down in Turks & Caicos and the aftermath. I do think Bethenny and Carole feed each other in their dislike for LuAnn, but I don't think Heather would have stopped it.

ryebread · June 15, 2016

18 hours ago, lunastartron said:

Carole's behavior at the luncheon that sparked BookGate was the ne plus ultra of odiousness to me. I thought it was clear that she was determined from jump to publicly shit all over Aviva. Way before any substantive conversation transpired, she was already making faces and grimacing at the most innocuous social vacuities. Then, after Aviva denied employing a gw (a matter which has no impact on Carole), she literally rolled her eyes and sneered "that was a letter to your mother" when Aviva referenced her Chicken Soup essay. All of that occurred before Aviva even intimated that Carole might have used a gw herself. It was astonishing that Carole felt the need to and no compunction about transparently denigrating the professional hobbyism of an acquaintance/former friend. If anyone had sighed that What Remains was "a diary entry" about *Carole's* dead loved one, we'd still be hearing about it. Her display was so unnecessarily ugly. Which is why I had no problem with Aviva responding in kind.

Exactly this. And then Carole relayed her skewed version of the luncheon to her henchman Heather and away we went. Of course Heather believed her tale, just as Carole believed Heather's about the conversation at the ManiPedi salon. All of them, including Aviva were big, fat fibbers but Carole started it. Nyah nyah. Heather and Aviva came out in the end better than Carole will, though. Carole is being dragged through social media. She was (almost) everyone's darling last season. This season, not so much.

Whatever happened to Carole's jewelry line? She needs to find a way to make a living because I can't believe the RHONY gravy train is going to last forever.

RHJunkie · June 15, 2016

38 minutes ago, shoegal said:

I can see that point, but I do think there is something to be said for the fact that LuAnn did start it, she got nasty with Carole because Carole was dating Adam, not because of something that Carole did to LuAnn. Did Carole retaliate? Yes, and in these kinds of situations I feel like Carole will only see her behavior as defensive until she feels that LuAnn is sincerely sorry and she can put down her defenses. Carole still has her guard up against LuAnn because she's not sure if the assault is over. If the two can truly get over it and become friendly again, I would expect Carole to apologize for her part. As far as Carole's recent behavior, I don't think Heather's presence would make a difference as LuAnn and Heather also have issues with what went down in Turks & Caicos and the aftermath. I do think Bethenny and Carole feed each other in their dislike for LuAnn, but I don't think Heather would have stopped it.

Sorry, didn't mean to say that Heather would have stopped it. I meant that Carole would have likely checked herself differently in Heather's presence, not that she wouldn't say or behave the way she has - I just think that she would saved the really nasty comments for her gossip talk with Bethenny and not Heather. I totally get your point that Carole is being reactionary but as a viewer, I'm only calling out the fact that it's an immature way to behave. The spotlight of bad behaviour was shining bright on Luann. By engaging, Carole has stepped on the stage and is now sharing that spotlight with Luann. In a teenage angst high school sort of way, I totally understand Carole's behaviour but the more she complains about the other person's behaviour, it only makes her look worse. Luann knows what she did was wrong. She claims she apologized and Carole denies that ever happened. I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in the middle where either Luann probably apologized or admitted regret but she probably didn't say that to Carole's face...or she may have said it in a way that it was only clear to Luann that she was offering an apology.

I don't think Heather would have brought the Turks stuff into this season because it seems that stuff got dropped by both sides soon after the reunion. I do think Heather and Luann would be giving side eye to each other all season long but as neither of them kept that going I suspect that there would more tension than blowouts. With Bethenny there, Heather doesn't need to be Carole's mouthpiece.

zoeysmom · June 15, 2016

If one were to view what set Bethenny off, was Luann not agreeing and the others not laughing at the prospect of Luann mentoring (bad choice of words on Luann's part) of Sonja. Carole piled on during Round Three of the Berkshires Battle about Luann being the wrong person to look in, look after Sonja. This would be the same Sonja they didn't want with them in the Berkshires and could not see that exiling her would add to her already pretty full plate of people abandoning her. So I don't blame Carole and Bethenny for wanting to drag up old stuff, because it looks really bad to criticize someone for being there for a friend in need. It is a little like saying the gift wasn't good enough, the visit was long enough, the e-mail wasn't personal enough. Luann made the effort. It is pretty clear after Thanksgiving, which would have been about two scenes, Luann had moved on with Thomas, so going back to visit, "stay" with Luann was a nice thing to do and primarily done so Sonja had camera time.

It is always a dangerous path to say, I don't like somebody. Even worse when you have to give a reason because usually you sound pretty petty. If you don't like the core of a person, chances are they won't change. Last year it at the Reunion, hosted by Bethenny, she gets out there that Luann has been honest about her man encounters, with a drooling Carole nodding enthusiastically. Carole didn't like Luann the first season she was on and the second season she tolerated her because of the Aviva situation. So if a person admits to their transgressions, it makes no sense to go back and say, we forgave you and moved on but now we are mad at you again so let's go relitigate the past.

So after three episode of Bethenny beating up Luann it came down to:

(1) Bethenny claiming Luann is going after her business by referencing a scene out of the past. (I am really not sure how this has any impact of Skinnygirl.)

(2) Bethenny not finding Luann a suitable nursemaid for a wounded Sonja.

(3) Bethenny claiming Luann is a man stealer and gives really poor examples. Something Bethenny would never do but of course she is dating a married man.

The single most ridiculous thing I have taken away from the ever-evolving and in some cases devolving "Girl Code". It was bad enough when Luann said and wrote a song about it but for the others to perpetuate is inexcusable. If I was dating or had recently dated a man and found he was asking my co-workers or friends out, not only would I not expect a call from my friend or co-worker, I would not expect to hear from the guy again. It is called moving on. I wonder if Ramona knew Dorinda and phone introduced Luann and Tom and if she thought to run it by Luann, if Luann had the first introduction? What if Ramona said it was not okay-how long is the guy required to sit on the bench? For Carole and Bethenny to give nutsy Ramona any traction in this area is ridiculous-especially given Carole's history. If it was wrong for Luann to mention girl code, it is wrong for the rest to hold Luann to a standard she was previously told was wrong.

So is this Tom guy going to be like fresh attack meat for Ramona, Bethenny and Carole?

zoeysmom · June 15, 2016

1 hour ago, shoegal said:

I can see that point, but I do think there is something to be said for the fact that LuAnn did start it, she got nasty with Carole because Carole was dating Adam, not because of something that Carole did to LuAnn. Did Carole retaliate? Yes, and in these kinds of situations I feel like Carole will only see her behavior as defensive until she feels that LuAnn is sincerely sorry and she can put down her defenses. Carole still has her guard up against LuAnn because she's not sure if the assault is over. If the two can truly get over it and become friendly again, I would expect Carole to apologize for her part. As far as Carole's recent behavior, I don't think Heather's presence would make a difference as LuAnn and Heather also have issues with what went down in Turks & Caicos and the aftermath. I do think Bethenny and Carole feed each other in their dislike for LuAnn, but I don't think Heather would have stopped it.

Hasn't Carole pretty much dug her heels in and said she would never communicate with someone who said what Luann said to her?

shoegal · June 15, 2016

4 minutes ago, zoeysmom said:

If one were to view what set Bethenny off, was Luann not agreeing and the others not laughing at the prospect of Luann mentoring (bad choice of words on Luann's part) of Sonja. Carole piled on during Round Three of the Berkshires Battle about Luann being the wrong person to look in, look after Sonja. This would be the same Sonja they didn't want with them in the Berkshires and could not see that exiling her would add to her already pretty full plate of people abandoning her. So I don't blame Carole and Bethenny for wanting to drag up old stuff, because it looks really bad to criticize someone for being there for a friend in need. It is a little like saying the gift wasn't good enough, the visit was long enough, the e-mail wasn't personal enough. Luann made the effort. It is pretty clear after Thanksgiving, which would have been about two scenes, Luann had moved on with Thomas, so going back to visit, "stay" with Luann was a nice thing to do and primarily done so Sonja had camera time.

It is always a dangerous path to say, I don't like somebody. Even worse when you have to give a reason because usually you sound pretty petty. If you don't like the core of a person, chances are they won't change. Last year it at the Reunion, hosted by Bethenny, she gets out there that Luann has been honest about her man encounters, with a drooling Carole nodding enthusiastically. Carole didn't like Luann the first season she was on and the second season she tolerated her because of the Aviva situation. So if a person admits to their transgressions, it makes no sense to go back and say, we forgave you and moved on but now we are mad at you again so let's go relitigate the past.

So after three episode of Bethenny beating up Luann it came down to:

(1) Bethenny claiming Luann is going after her business by referencing a scene out of the past. (I am really not sure how this has any impact of Skinnygirl.)

(2) Bethenny not finding Luann a suitable nursemaid for a wounded Sonja.

(3) Bethenny claiming Luann is a man stealer and gives really poor examples. Something Bethenny would never do but of course she is dating a married man.

The single most ridiculous thing I have taken away from the ever-evolving and in some cases devolving "Girl Code". It was bad enough when Luann said and wrote a song about it but for the others to perpetuate is inexcusable. If I was dating or had recently dated a man and found he was asking my co-workers or friends out, not only would I not expect a call from my friend or co-worker, I would not expect to hear from the guy again. It is called moving on. I wonder if Ramona knew Dorinda and phone introduced Luann and Tom and if she thought to run it by Luann, if Luann had the first introduction? What if Ramona said it was not okay-how long is the guy required to sit on the bench? For Carole and Bethenny to give nutsy Ramona any traction in this area is ridiculous-especially given Carole's history. If it was wrong for Luann to mention girl code, it is wrong for the rest to hold Luann to a standard she was previously told was wrong.

So is this Tom guy going to be like fresh attack meat for Ramona, Bethenny and Carole?

It is because LuAnn made such a HUGE deal and wrote the song "Girl Code" that the others are perpetuating it. I don't think Ramona made a big deal out of LuAnn dating Tom, but she did point out that if LuAnn is going to be such a big proponent of "Girl Code", then surely dating a guy that had recently been dating your friend would require following some "Girl Code" rules like a courteous 'heads up, is this ok?' kind of thing. That's the point. LuAnn is a do as I say and I do whatever I damn well please kind of "girl"....Who fucks everyone!

ryebread · June 15, 2016

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

Yikes! This thread has become quite unpleasant. Excited for a new episode tonight, as well as new comments. How many times can the same thing be said?

If the BH and Yolanda threads are any indication, at least for another 87 pages or so. ;-)

1 hour ago, shoegal said:

If the two can truly get over it and become friendly again, I would expect Carole to apologize for her part.

Carole apologize? Hmm. Not so sure. So far, her two best friends since joining this franchise have been Bethenny and Heather. Both of whom are infamous for never admitting to being wrong, nor ever apologizing. Birds of a feather and all.

In addition, like Elaine Davidson, Carole is expecting a certain kind of apology from Luann and won't take anything less. She seems to have a tough time apologizing and accepting apologies.

WireWrap · June 15, 2016

1 minute ago, ryebread said:

If the BH and Yolanda threads are any indication, at least for another 87 pages or so. ;-)

Carole apologize? Hmm. Not so sure. So far, her two best friends since joining this franchise have been Bethenny and Heather. Both of whom are infamous for never admitting to being wrong, nor ever apologizing. Birds of a feather and all.

In addition, like Elaine Davidson, Carole is expecting a certain kind of apology from Luann and won't take anything less. She seems to have a tough time apologizing and accepting apologies.

I disagree that Heather never apologized for anything. She did and she tried to move past disagreements when possible....Dorinda being just 1 example of this.

Did Heather stand up for Carole in GWgate? Yes she did and I understand why and it was Carole that stuck up for Heather in the T&C nakedmangate.

ryebread · June 15, 2016

1 minute ago, WireWrap said:

I disagree that Heather never apologized for anything. She did and she tried to move past disagreements when possible....Dorinda being just 1 example of this.

Did Heather stand up for Carole in GWgate? Yes she did and I understand why and it was Carole that stuck up for Heather in the T&C nakedmangate.

I honestly do not remember Heather apologizing for anything. I remember Heather getting apologized TO whether she deserved an apology or not. And only THEN Heather moved on, once her butt was sufficiently smooched.

I agree that Heather and Carole had each other's backs, come hell or high water. It's why they were viewed, by many, as the only authentic friendship across all the franchises. I wonder how that friendship is faring now.

quaintirene · June 15, 2016

I'm sure this is news to nobody but me, but in today's Daily Mail it says that Jules is divorcing Michael for cheatin'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3643146/Shock-split-RHONY-s-Jules-Wainstein-s-husband-Michael-files-divorce-busted-cheating.html

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