How I Want The Americans To End

[SunnyBeBe]

I've changed my mind a little and now wonder if a final series scene of today would be interesting since Russia is now constantly in the news. It's really ironic, even though Russia is technically no longer communist, but still......Putin is former KGB, although, he's said before that there IS NO SUCH THING AS FORMER KGB.  lol 

 How old would P and E be about now?

[sistermagpie]

These characters change so much over each episode it seems like jumping ahead would just make then strangers. (Especially suddenly adult Paige and Henry still played by teenagers. ) Their story isn't the story of the Cold War. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I think the final episode could go anywhere in time as a stopping off place....even if it shows the kids adults with their own families, P & E in a retirement home or deceased.  

[hincandenza]

On 2/27/2017 at 2:30 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I've changed my mind a little and now wonder if a final series scene of today would be interesting since Russia is now constantly in the news. It's really ironic, even though Russia is technically no longer communist, but still......Putin is former KGB, although, he's said before that there IS NO SUCH THING AS FORMER KGB.  lol 

 How old would P and E be about now?

Yeah, I just binged watched season 4 on Amazon Prime over the last few days, and was... unsettled watching this with the benefit of both 30 years' hindsight and the current news stories about what kind of influence/infiltration is going on with Russia today.  "No such thing as former KGB", indeed!

I don't think we ever got full canonical birthdays, but we do know Elizabeth was born in 1943 and Phillip in the early 40's (probably 1940/1941) and is about 43 when season 4 ends (in early 1984).  So that would make Phillip 76 and Elizabeth 74 today, give or take a year either way.

 

On 2/27/2017 at 2:53 PM, sistermagpie said:

These characters change so much over each episode it seems like jumping ahead would just make then strangers. (Especially suddenly adult Paige and Henry still played by teenagers. ) Their story isn't the story of the Cold War. 

I agree, this isn't a story about the end of the Cold War, or even which side is "right"; if anything, this show has made me adopt an almost dharmic aloofness about this era, seeing the violent and "pointless" deaths of these spies and their collateral damage as the cheaper way- in lives lost- to fight a war between nuclear powers.  It's a show about the impact of living these lives has on people who are beneath it all still human beings, asked in various ways to sacrifice for their respective countries, and it would make sense for the bulk of the last season/series finale to take place before the fall of the USSR.  An ending that smacks of any kind of "rubbing the Russkies nose in it" will feel totally wrong for this particular show.  That said, I would like to see some kind of flash-ahead montage in the series finale, "Six Feet Under" style, so we can find out what happened to everyone.

[sistermagpie]

29 minutes ago, hincandenza said:

I don't think we ever got full canonical birthdays, but we do know Elizabeth was born in 1943 and Phillip in the early 40's (probably 1940/1941) and is about 43 when season 4 ends (in early 1984).  So that would make Phillip 76 and Elizabeth 74 today, give or take a year either way.

Do we know that? I thought Elizabeth said she was 22 when they got to the US in 65 which would make her 38 the first season in 81 and Philip that same year was 39 according to his Philip Jennings bio. So I assumed they're supposed to be the same age. Did we get some other info about Philip that made him older?

 

34 minutes ago, hincandenza said:

I agree, this isn't a story about the end of the Cold War, or even which side is "right"; if anything, this show has made me adopt an almost dharmic aloofness about this era, seeing the violent and "pointless" deaths of these spies and their collateral damage as the cheaper way- in lives lost- to fight a war between nuclear powers.

Yeah, it's like Nina. She had this whole huge story but in the story of the Cold War she was just chewed up and spit out. Same with William. In a way, every spy is mostly struggling to find things to motivate them personally.

[hincandenza]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

Do we know that? I thought Elizabeth said she was 22 when they got to the US in 65 which would make her 38 the first season in 81 and Philip that same year was 39 according to his Philip Jennings bio. So I assumed they're supposed to be the same age. Did we get some other info about Philip that made him older?

We're saying the same thing. :)  22 in 1965 = born in 1943 = about 40 in early 1983/84 when season 4 ends, so would be ~74 today in 2017.  Phillip is I think 1-2 years older but all we know of birth year is "early 40's", so if he was born in mid/late 1941 and she was born in early 1943, then depending on the calendar they could be 1-2 years apart in listed age.  

In any case, I don't think they've ever told us a specific date of birth for either, or even birth year for Phillip, so the best we can reliably say is "mid-70's" at this point.  A real-life Elizabeth and Phillip would likely still be alive and in decent health (you just know they'd be those "grandmother wins marathon!" types) today, and possibly (great)grandparents depending on how Paige (who'd be 49 and possibly a grandmother herself) and Henry lived their adult lives.

 

Getting back to the main topic, a part of me kind of wants them all to get away with it: for the USSR to fail, for Phillip and Elizabeth to realize they are done with spy craft and now have to get on with living their normal American lives, and Stan "Facial Twitch" Beeman would grow old never knowing his long-time friends and neighbors were once the very hardcore bad-ass Russian spies hunted by the entire FBI counterintelligence unit.  Almost like the end to "Goodfellas", where it's a 'happy' ending and yet the series leads would probably dread the boring plainness of actual suburban life.

[Sarah 103]

15 hours ago, hincandenza said:

 Almost like the end to "Goodfellas", where it's a 'happy' ending and yet the series leads would probably dread the boring plainness of actual suburban life.

With the skills they have? There's no way they just walk off into the sunset. They could make a killing (no pun intended) in corporate espionage. That being said, I agree with other people. This isn't the story of the Cold War. This is a story set during the Cold War. When the series ends is going to be driven by the characters, not major moments in history. I think the story will end sometime/well before 1989 or 1991.  

[Chaos Theory]

On 2/27/2017 at 5:30 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I've changed my mind a little and now wonder if a final series scene of today would be interesting since Russia is now constantly in the news. It's really ironic, even though Russia is technically no longer communist, but still......Putin is former KGB, although, he's said before that there IS NO SUCH THING AS FORMER KGB.  lol 

 How old would P and E be about now?

This is why I always liked my ending.  The more things change..... P&E quietly retire.  Stan quietly retires.  Paige grows up.  Maybe marries Matthew.  Maybe not.  But then fast forward to current times and either have her listening to Putin on the news while husband and kids get ready for the day and as they leave the phone rings....,or maybe Paige gets ready for her first day of her shiny new job.  Everyone is so exited for her.  She walks into her new office.  Hey she is the whatever whatever for Russian Counter intelligence in the FBI.

Both scenes end with the camera pulling back to a America flag waving in the distance.   End show.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[sugarbaker design]

While I love the show, Phillip and Elizabeth are a pair of cold-hearted killers.  They are great KBG agents.  I would love some sort of poetic justice.  After living years in the USA with all its creature comforts, it would be satisfying seeing them working mundane unfulfilling, jobs (much like the German spy in The Lives of Others) in a drab, gray post-USSR Russia with their angry, bitter children.

[SunnyBeBe]

I could see Page going off to work in today's times to any government position. Even the White House.  You never know. lol 

Edited March 7, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Chaos Theory]

43 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I could see Page going off to work in today's times to any government position. Even the White House.  You never know. lol 

Paige wouldn't be able to sustain any deep level security check but a basic security check she could easily pass.  She could easily get a Martha level job.....and Martha had access to everything.

[misstwpherecool]

23 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I could see Page going off to work in today's times to any government position. Even the White House.  You never know. lol 

She has intern written all over. Dr Paige? FBI Agent or Navy Seal Henry?

One of them I think will play a purposeful part in P & E's deliberate demise.

I think there will be a defection or two on the Russian side. I see Oleg family or mom being snuck out of the country. His father-eh. P & E will probably wind up plea bargaining their way out of the body count.

Maybe somekind of reactivation for P & E when Putin comes to power or could Oleg be the Putin character. Personally I want justice for Elizabeth's victims more than anyone.

[scrb]

Joe Weisberg was inspired by the real-life capture of 10 illegals ... in 2010.

But he decided to move the story to during the Cold War, to make it more dramatic, because people would have shrugged if the story was set in the 21st century when it seemed like Russia wasn't the mortal enemy of the US that the USSR was.

The real-life illegals didn't really get classified info. to pass back home.  They tried to get close to people who might get security clearances, such as Columbia University students who would get recruited by the CIA.  But by the time they were captured, they hadn't produced anything.

So real life is much less dramatic than the Jennings' adventures.

Jennings appear to be compassionate and tender toward each other and the kids.  But they are killers, who don't even hesitate for a split second to kill, in order to serve the mission.  Paige has PTSD from just witnessing Elizabeth murder someone.  Neither Philip nor Elizabeth show the slightest indication of PTSD or guilt.  Philip regrets some of the things he's done and remembers his first kill, of a bullying schoolmate back in Russia.

Now can they turn off the killer instinct, being numb to making a decision to kill in a split-second, and reintegrate peacefully into civilian life?  Or would they instantly be triggered to violence because of some confrontation, such as a road-rage incident?

If the FBI caught them, there's no way they'd make a deal with them, given what they've done, how successful they've been.  Unless they rat out every other spy they know, but they're in cells with minimal contact with other spies and only knowing their handlers.

The impulse of the viewers would be to see them ride off into the sunset, unharmed.  They identify with them, because they fell in love, showed compassion, showed that they had some doubts about what they were doing.  But their actions still make them monsters.  They killed in the course of trying to minimize whatever advantage they perceived the US as having over the USSR.  That meant killing to maintain their cover and their victims included the old lady who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, in the back office when they were trying to implant a listening device on the file robot used by the FBI.

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, scrb said:

Neither Philip nor Elizabeth show the slightest indication of PTSD or guilt.  Philip regrets some of the things he's done and remembers his first kill, of a bullying schoolmate back in Russia.

Philip isn't showing PTSD or guilt? He's been soaking in that for years.

 

7 hours ago, scrb said:

But their actions still make them monsters.  They killed in the course of trying to minimize whatever advantage they perceived the US as having over the USSR.

Eh, they still don't seem like monsters to me. There's plenty of very human people who kill for these reasons. Humans do that. Especially when they're not having to do actual hand-to-hand killing themselves. P&E just grew up in a world where killing was an up-close reality.

Edited March 9, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Chaos Theory]

I think the lack of P&E PTSD is because they are still technically in a state of war.  It's like when a serial killer gets caught and their mask falls they sleep almost sitting at the interview table.  That's kind of strange but it makes strange sense to.  They are at peace for the first time.  If P&E were ever really at peace for the first time I wonder what kind of people they would be.  If their masks fell and they were just Mischa and Nadezhda again.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[JasonCC]

I think it could end with Gabriel and/or Claudia getting caught.

[Umbelina]

On 3/8/2017 at 2:16 PM, misstwpherecool said:

She has intern written all over. Dr Paige? FBI Agent or Navy Seal Henry?

One of them I think will play a purposeful part in P & E's deliberate demise.

I think there will be a defection or two on the Russian side. I see Oleg family or mom being snuck out of the country. His father-eh. P & E will probably wind up plea bargaining their way out of the body count.

Maybe somekind of reactivation for P & E when Putin comes to power or could Oleg be the Putin character. Personally I want justice for Elizabeth's victims more than anyone.

After tonight's show, it certainly seems like Paige is being set up to expose her parents, or fuck it up one way or another.  I hope that's not it.

I think Oleg's family is pretty high up in the system, they could probably travel and make an escape pretty easily compared to average citizens.  Oleg could as well, for now anyway.  We haven't had a double or triple agent since Nina, that may be the way they go with Oleg.  I'd kind of love to see him escape, not defect, just leave with mom and dad and live somewhere else.  Of course it would be more fun if he'd just defect, but I doubt dad would go along with that, even if he is disgusted by his younger son's death, and "the party" now.

On 3/9/2017 at 0:08 AM, scrb said:

Joe Weisberg was inspired by the real-life capture of 10 illegals ... in 2010.

But he decided to move the story to during the Cold War, to make it more dramatic, because people would have shrugged if the story was set in the 21st century when it seemed like Russia wasn't the mortal enemy of the US that the USSR was.

The real-life illegals didn't really get classified info. to pass back home.  They tried to get close to people who might get security clearances, such as Columbia University students who would get recruited by the CIA.  But by the time they were captured, they hadn't produced anything.

So real life is much less dramatic than the Jennings' adventures.

Jennings appear to be compassionate and tender toward each other and the kids.  But they are killers, who don't even hesitate for a split second to kill, in order to serve the mission.  Paige has PTSD from just witnessing Elizabeth murder someone.  Neither Philip nor Elizabeth show the slightest indication of PTSD or guilt.  Philip regrets some of the things he's done and remembers his first kill, of a bullying schoolmate back in Russia.

Now can they turn off the killer instinct, being numb to making a decision to kill in a split-second, and reintegrate peacefully into civilian life?  Or would they instantly be triggered to violence because of some confrontation, such as a road-rage incident?

If the FBI caught them, there's no way they'd make a deal with them, given what they've done, how successful they've been.  Unless they rat out every other spy they know, but they're in cells with minimal contact with other spies and only knowing their handlers.

The impulse of the viewers would be to see them ride off into the sunset, unharmed.  They identify with them, because they fell in love, showed compassion, showed that they had some doubts about what they were doing.  But their actions still make them monsters.  They killed in the course of trying to minimize whatever advantage they perceived the US as having over the USSR.  That meant killing to maintain their cover and their victims included the old lady who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, in the back office when they were trying to implant a listening device on the file robot used by the FBI.

Yes, the Jennings do all kinds of things real illegals would never do.  KGB had break in teams and stealing stuff didn't require a perfect American accent or any of the very valuable skills, carefully hidden, that illegals possessed.  In real life they might identify agents, but I doubt they would actually "run" very many of them, they would be handed off to others.  As far as just about any B and E they've had, including the mail robot?  No way.  Perhaps the airline plans since they had to speak.  Running that AA black lady or the Korean woman?  More believable.

I'll take issue with you saying Paige watched her mother "murder" that man.  HE pulled the knife Elizabeth used to kill him, and both her and Paige's life were definitely in jeopardy.  That is clearly justifiable homicide, self defense, not murder.  Other murders, for "the cause" were more disturbing until you remember that they consider themselves soldiers at war.  So far, I can't remember them murdering anyone as a first resort.  I always try to picture them as OUR CIA operating on enemy soil during that time frame.  Would I then justify the behavior?

On 3/9/2017 at 7:26 AM, sistermagpie said:

Philip isn't showing PTSD or guilt? He's been soaking in that for years.

 

Eh, they still don't seem like monsters to me. There's plenty of very human people who kill for these reasons. Humans do that. Especially when they're not having to do actual hand-to-hand killing themselves. P&E just grew up in a world where killing was an up-close reality.

I agree.  The worst murders I can remember have been Gene and that elderly woman at the mail robot repair place.  Of the two, Gene is more heinous to me.  I honestly don't see what choice Elizabeth had at the repair shop, and she did kill her as painlessly as possible.  She was afraid of pain, remember.  Philip killed Gene simply to clear his agent Martha from suspicion.  He did have options there, including just ex-filtrating her as happened fairly soon afterwards anyway.  That was the most cold blooded murder I can recall on this show.  Philip felt guilty as hell, for very good reasons.

On 3/10/2017 at 11:43 AM, JasonCC said:

I think it could end with Gabriel and/or Claudia getting caught.

That would be fitting, but kind of a let down, since they don't have that much longer on earth anyway, and haven't really done much other than issue unreasonable orders to the Jennings.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Umbelina

[Chaos Theory]

I wouldn't call Elizabeth killing the mugger in front of Paige murder my any version of the word.  It was definitely self defense worse case it was over kill.  That being said I would call Elizabeth dropping the car on that guy that one time to gets her AA friend promoted outright murder.  

Honestly I am starting to think I wouldn't mind if the season ends with Paige having a nervous breakdown and doing something she can't take back or talk her way out of like they did with Pastor Tim and the final season is the real repercussions of bringing in Paige.  What if Paige likes it?  Likes it all.   What if P&E turn Paige into a monste?

What if that becomes the thing they cannot live with?

[Kathemy]

I think that the showrunners of The Americans would be very wary of actually flashing forward to present day, with Putin, Trump et al. I don't see them wanting to make a comment on contemporary politics in that way. The idea of Paige working in Russian intelligence spying on America in present day would just reinforce the notion, "hey, look, they're the bad guys, they've always been the bad guys, they'll ever be the bad guys", and one point of The Americans is to humanize the enemy, not promote russophobia.

I think Philip and Elizabeth dying or something like that to round things off is a little too pedestrian for this show, however.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

What if Paige likes it?  Likes it all.   What if P&E turn Paige into a monste?

That'd be a pretty big character shift to the part of being cartoonish, though. She hasn't liked it so far. The one thing that she could get into is probably the idea that something Bad is being done and she's helping to stop it--like by believing the story about the grain. But she'll have more information than just her parents' hearsay about that. 

After all, it's not just that they do stuff like murder, it's that they live under constant threat of exposure and destruction. Paige doesn't like that part and so far doesn't like lying or violence either.

[scrb]

Well they did humanize the Jennings but P&E are still killers, who've mostly shown little remorse.  Phillip has had remorse but he keeps killing and going on missions where if he doesn't kill Elizabeth will.

Yes killing the mugger was self-defense but that doesn't mean Paige won't get PTSD out of it.

And that's setting aside the question of whether Elizabeth could have disarmed him and beat the shit out of him instead of going for the quick, grisly kill.

Now does that mean the show should end with poetic justice and P&E dying?  Sopranos had a killer as the main character.  He was emotionally damaged by his mother but he was still a killer.  Yet viewers mostly came to sympathize with him and his family, especially idolize the mob characters -- in fact they were disappointed there wasn't more whacking that the series portrayed.  Did Tony Soprano die in the end?  Guess David Chase wanted to leave it up to the viewers.  But maybe he didn't want to deliver either a happy or just ending.

[Umbelina]

Stan killing Vlad was murder as well. 

You don't just "disarm" someone who is trying to kill (and probably rape) both  you and your child.  That's "hollywood" crap, not real life.  She turned his own knife, the one he was trying to kill her with, against him in a death struggle.  Like a real person who is trained would, and that includes spies.

[SlackerInc]

As I have said before, there is plenty of reason to recoil at the idea of thinking of these protagonists in a sympathetic way.  And that may be why the show has struggled in the ratings and even with awards until recently.  But I consider it absolutely clear, both from what's on screen and what the showrunners say in interviews, that they are sympathetic to Philip and Elizabeth, and they want to engender sympathy for them on the part of viewers.  So if you are watching and finding them evil, you are watching "against the grain".

[Kathemy]

The show really does go out of its way to at least attempt to deliver a nuanced picture when it comes to these issues, even if, make no mistake, this is an American perspective. It never shuns from the unpleasantries. It's never been a hypocrite about the brutality of the Soviet secret service, but it also points out, very rightfully so, that their counterparts were no angels.

Philip and Elizabeth are the ones forced by their job into more and more unpalatable violence because they are losing. They're very far from their support system and that support system is cracking up. I think this is what creates the schizophrenic attitude of viewers to the material. It's easy to root for the underdog.

[misstwpherecool]

On 3/9/2017 at 0:08 AM, scrb said:

............

The impulse of the viewers would be to see them ride off into the sunset, unharmed.  They identify with them, because they fell in love, showed compassion, showed that they had some doubts about what they were doing.  But their actions still make them monsters.  They killed in the course of trying to minimize whatever advantage they perceived the US as having over the USSR.  That meant killing to maintain their cover and their victims included the old lady who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, in the back office when they were trying to implant a listening device on the file robot used by the FBI.

Didn't Elizabeth kill a security guard or police officer in one of the first few epi's near the secretary of defense's house as well. One of the bodies and/or disappearances will hopefully lead to their capture.

Then when the intern spy was killed it wasn't to prevent a diseased witness from going out in public it was to spare him the agony of the disease? E is a sociopath regardless of her motivations at this point. After two decades in US is post/cold war Russia really still that much of a motivator or could even be used as an excuse?

[Kathemy]

1 hour ago, misstwpherecool said:

Didn't Elizabeth kill a security guard or police officer in one of the first few epi's near the secretary of defense's house as well. One of the bodies and/or disappearances will hopefully lead to their capture.

Then when the intern spy was killed it wasn't to prevent a diseased witness from going out in public it was to spare him the agony of the disease? E is a sociopath regardless of her motivations at this point. After two decades in US is post/cold war Russia really still that much of a motivator or could even be used as an excuse?

Excuse? Heh, probably not. Explanation? Most definitely. No matter how long they've lived there - in fact, I'd say it gets worse the longer they live there - they are still Soviet spies, living under constant pressure and fear of discovery while trying to uphold a facade that everything's just fine, carrying out one crazy and brutal job after another.

[misstwpherecool]

31 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

Excuse? Heh, probably not. Explanation? Most definitely. No matter how long they've lived there - in fact, I'd say it gets worse the longer they live there - they are still Soviet spies, living under constant pressure and fear of discovery while trying to uphold a facade that everything's just fine, carrying out one crazy and brutal job after another.

That pressure or constant fear of being caught sort of like makes them criminals or fugitives on the run. Or a gangster eliminating witnesses.

[Kathemy]

4 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

That pressure or constant fear of being caught sort of like makes them criminals or fugitives on the run. Or a gangster eliminating witnesses.

Of course. Breaking the law of the country you're spying on is par for the course of being a spy. I'm not an apologist for this, but is that something that differentiates Soviet spies from other spies?

When Stan murdered Vlad, did he or did he not break the law?

[AllyB]

18 hours ago, misstwpherecool said:

After two decades in US is post/cold war Russia really still that much of a motivator or could even be used as an excuse?

When I watched the pilot and saw the Jennings in their big, comfortable detached house (I didn't notice then that it was a small terrace of 3 houses and I'm never sure if it is in the show or not, I presume not?) with all their clothes and food and the easy way of life they'd have if they weren't spies, I wondered how they could live like that for decades and still remain loyal to the USSR. But the show has addressed that over and over and over again. Elizabeth is a  lot of things but she isn't a hypocrite. As much as she admits she can enjoy some of the trappings of her American middle class existence it disgusts her to her core that those trappings aren't shared equally among Americans. She can't ignore the ghettos and the homeless and the people who don't have access to proper health care, education and even fresh, healthy food. She likes what she has but it still only serves to remind her of how unequal the distribution of comfort and opportunity is. And as long as that inequality exists, even within the US itself, never mind across the world, Elizabeth will never sell out or be swayed by an easy life full of nice things.

If she still lived in the USSR and was experiencing the realities of the inequality there, she'd probably have managed to find her way into Gorbachev's camp and be determined to root out the corruption that had destroyed the Soviet system almost as soon as it had begun. Elizabeth is an idealist but she is, due to her experiences, naive about the reality of the system she believes in. She was a child when she ceased to live the life of an ordinary Russian. She was filled with pro-Soviet/anti-US propaganda but trained to recognise pro-US/anti-Soviet propaganda. She thinks she's one of the only people with a real understanding of the world and she genuinely sees herself as a hero. She doesn't enjoy killing, it always takes a toll on her, but she sees the innocent people she kills as unfortunate collateral damage and she has been trained to compartmentalise that part of her job.

[misstwpherecool]

On 3/19/2017 at 0:12 PM, Kathemy said:

Of course. Breaking the law of the country you're spying on is par for the course of being a spy. I'm not an apologist for this, but is that something that differentiates Soviet spies from other spies?

When Stan murdered Vlad, did he or did he not break the law?

Stan did break the law and this should come back on him. I don't like the way they're writing off murder as spy stuff.

On 3/19/2017 at 0:12 PM, Kathemy said:

Of course. Breaking the law of the country you're spying on is par for the course of being a spy. I'm not an apologist for this, but is that something that differentiates Soviet spies from other spies?

When Stan murdered Vlad, did he or did he not break the law?

[Bannon]

On Sunday, March 19, 2017 at 10:56 AM, misstwpherecool said:

Didn't Elizabeth kill a security guard or police officer in one of the first few epi's near the secretary of defense's house as well. One of the bodies and/or disappearances will hopefully lead to their capture.

Then when the intern spy was killed it wasn't to prevent a diseased witness from going out in public it was to spare him the agony of the disease? E is a sociopath regardless of her motivations at this point. After two decades in US is post/cold war Russia really still that much of a motivator or could even be used as an excuse?

To me,  E's most morally heinous murder was the time she released the jack, and dropped a car on some poor faceless slob's head, so the alcoholic she was running could get a promotion into the poor slob's factory. Good ol' liz, always on the side of the working class!

[Bannon]

P & E have their covers blown in '91, are arrested, and Paige, realizing she is implicated, goes on the run. She undergoes plastic surgery to change her appearance, becomes a blond, relocates to Albuquerque in the mid 90s, with the new name of "Skyler". She meets a brilliant chemical engineer with towering insecurities, and a chip on his shoulder the size of a redwood tree. Hijinks ensue, and Paige gets a second chance at being the most strangely despised (by fans) female character in heavily serialized television drama!

[Umbelina]

On 3/19/2017 at 0:12 PM, Kathemy said:

Of course. Breaking the law of the country you're spying on is par for the course of being a spy. I'm not an apologist for this, but is that something that differentiates Soviet spies from other spies?

When Stan murdered Vlad, did he or did he not break the law?

Yes.  Murder is against the law.  As a law enforcement (FBI) agent it's even worse.  Stan also broke the law when he stole top secret codes, even if he didn't actually give them to the KGB.  He broke a lot of FBI rules as well.  What's worse, a lot of people know about it, and/or it could be fairly easily proven.  Arkady, Oleg, Nina and whomever she may have told while in prison, the random guys the "beat up" Nina, the people Arkady reported to in the USSR, and several FBI guys that know he murder Vlad (who could also be charged I assume as accomplishes.)

 

ETA  More and more I think it's going to be Paige that exposes them.  I can even picture the scene, where Paige (and/or possibly Stan's kid) let him know the illegals he's been looking for since the show began are the people across the street, where he eats most of his dinners.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Umbelina

[kikaha]

My latest theory (they're usually wrong about this show) is that the writers are laying the groundwork for at least Philip's final disillusionment with the USSR.  I don't think P&E have stumbled on a massive U.S. secret conspiracy to starve millions of Soviet people (Stalin did a grand job of that himself decades earlier).  Just the opposite: the American govt is searching for ways to combat the grain diseases.  P&E will eventually learn this.  They will realize they actually damaged what could be a huge benefit to Russia, and killed people whose efforts might have helped the Russian masses. 

Philip in the past showed a willingness to defect.  I think facing the unending brutality of his nation and its self-destructive policies may be the final straw for him.  I also suspect the vocal complaints of the Soviet defector-scientist are registering on P's brain at some level. 

Elizabeth I'm not so sure of.  She is as brainwashed a zealot as I could imagine.  Not so sure she could ever betray her nation. 

Oddly, Page looks more and more like her mother's daughter.  Won't surprise me if she becomes a Soviet or Russian asset at some point. 

[misstwpherecool]

On 3/21/2017 at 4:05 PM, Umbelina said:

Yes.  Murder is against the law.  As a law enforcement (FBI) agent it's even worse.  Stan also broke the law when he stole top secret codes, even if he didn't actually give them to the KGB.  He broke a lot of FBI rules as well.  What's worse, a lot of people know about it, and/or it could be fairly easily proven.  Arkady, Oleg, Nina and whomever she may have told while in prison, the random guys the "beat up" Nina, the people Arkady reported to in the USSR, and several FBI guys that know he murder Vlad (who could also be charged I assume as accomplishes.)

 

ETA  More and more I think it's going to be Paige that exposes them.  I can even picture the scene, where Paige (and/or possibly Stan's kid) let him know the illegals he's been looking for since the show began are the people across the street, where he eats most of his dinners.

Basically by Stan extorting his big boss another crime with his own murder all this seems to be being written off as office politics.

[methodwriter85]

I wanted to show to at least include Chernobyl, because it really did seem like the final nail in the coffin of the glories of the Communist system, but this show doesn't seem like it's going to go beyond early 1985.

Page should be graduating either in 1985 or 1986 (depending on when she started school) so I'm sure she'll get yet more focus during the last season.

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, methodwriter85 said:

I wanted to show to at least include Chernobyl, because it really did seem like the final nail in the coffin of the glories of the Communist system, but this show doesn't seem like it's going to go beyond early 1985.

Page should be graduating either in 1985 or 1986 (depending on when she started school) so I'm sure she'll get yet more focus during the last season.

I hope they cover Chernobyl because I want to see Oleg's reaction to it. He's the one who saw this or something like it coming.

[Umbelina]

57 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I hope they cover Chernobyl because I want to see Oleg's reaction to it. He's the one who saw this or something like it coming.

 

2 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I wanted to show to at least include Chernobyl, because it really did seem like the final nail in the coffin of the glories of the Communist system, but this show doesn't seem like it's going to go beyond early 1985.

Page should be graduating either in 1985 or 1986 (depending on when she started school) so I'm sure she'll get yet more focus during the last season.

Well, who knows?  It may.  One of the episodes this season is entitled

Spoiler

Dyatkovo

which is

Spoiler

well within the danger zone, less than 500 km as the crow (or fallout) flies.

Only spoiling those because some people really hate even the tiniest possible spoiler, not that I necessarily think it will have anything to do with Chernobyl, unless we get a time jump. 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Umbelina

[RedFiat]

On 3/10/2017 at 2:43 PM, JasonCC said:

I think it could end with Gabriel and/or Claudia getting caught.

If they moved everything to present day then Philip and Elizabeth become today what Gabriel and Claudia were to them in '84  

[misstwpherecool]

One of the things I noticed with the stage or table setting for the season and series finale is that P & E seemed to be getting more help this year. I'm thinking some of that 'help' could be a spy, mole or will defect or flip come push to shove.

That being said I think there will be a major surprise defection by the KGB. I'm wondering if by showing Gabriel starring at Lincoln and the DC Monument he was thinking about defecting as well. His 'tiredness' might be 'tired' of it, not the work & stress. Also many try to show false loyalty by being by the book even in the workplace-Claudia could be tired too.

[Umbelina]

I think Philip, and possibly even Elizabeth are in great danger from the KGB, perhaps the only reason they aren't in even more danger of being eliminated is how very much Center wants their 2nd generation spy, Paige.

I suspect Gabe is leaving because he doesn't want to eventually follow orders to eliminate Philip, or Elizabeth.  It's almost as if he can feel it coming, which is why he's giving Philip such strong warnings.

• Elizabeth's reports on him liking America "too much."
• Insisting on getting Martha out against orders
• Arranging the trip for Eliz and Paige to see her mother
• Elizabeth actually GOING
• Their love for each other is problematic, do they love each other more than country now?
• Philip vehemently arguing about recruiting Paige
• The need for a "vacation" according to his handler
• Philip going to EST
• Hell, even Philip buying a "sports car" (the Camaro) tacked on to all the rest could raise eyebrows.

I'm re-watching the seasons, and I'm noticing that Gabe's been trying to warn Philip for a long time, the one I'm watching now he specifically tells Philip to "grow up."

Edited April 13, 2017 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

30 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think Philip, and possibly even Elizabeth are in great danger from the KGB, perhaps the only reason they aren't in even more danger of being eliminated is how very much Center wants their 2nd generation spy, Paige.

 

But why would they be itching to eliminate two highly successful agents? They just gave them yet another delicate job to handle. 

I agree that Gabriel sees the danger in Philip being so openly challenging, but I think there's a difference between seeing the danger in that, knowing that the Centre is watching him (and Elizabeth) as somebody who might turn, and saying that the Centre is only keeping them alive because of Paige. 

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But why would they be itching to eliminate two highly successful agents? They just gave them yet another delicate job to handle. 

I agree that Gabriel sees the danger in Philip being so openly challenging, but I think there's a difference between seeing the danger in that, knowing that the Centre is watching him (and Elizabeth) as somebody who might turn, and saying that the Centre is only keeping them alive because of Paige. 

Things in the USSR were not going well, at all, the paranoia and desperate actions were more likely, and Center has always been shown to be out of touch with the reality of life in the USA.  They will collapse soon, and desperate times don't always result in sane decisions.

Their agents have been highly successful, but if they defected?  They could also be highly damaging. 

Right now, the only doubts about Elizabeth are:  1)  The trip to see mom, and 2) They have the reports about Phil and Liz becoming more than just partners for the KGB, that they are "in love" now.  Getting rid of Philip could pull Elizabeth right back in, no more divided loyalties, she'd be KGB all the way.

Philip is the real liability in their eyes.  Get rid of him?  No more arguments about Paige's grooming, Eliz is all in on that.  His death would have to look accidental, to avoid FBI interest, and possibly Liz resentment. 

[misstwpherecool]

There's a whole bunch of scenarios but something out all the characters past should come back on them like a karma thing. One of P & E s bodies should be their end. Still wondering why the security guard or cop that E killed in S 1 doesn't have a family screaming for justice/their killer. Or maybe Stan did something on his previous undercover assignment in the KKK.

I don't know should it be a I didn't see that coming out of the blue endings or should it be all tied up nice and neat. I still thinking some surprise defections or unexpected allies.

[sistermagpie]

49 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

Still wondering why the security guard or cop that E killed in S 1 doesn't have a family screaming for justice/their killer.

They probably did--and they went looking for a prostitute or her pimp, since that's what P&E made it look like when they staged the murder scene. Or at least some kind of sexual scenario, even if it was abduction and assault.

Edited April 19, 2017 by sistermagpie

[One Imaginary Girl]

Warning: Breaking Bad references ahead. 

It would be so derivative, but I wouldn't mind if this season's finale ended with Stan having a Leaves Of Grass moment.  Then next year, he would be working on what he discovered about Elizabeth and Philip, possibly without the official knowledge of the FBI and with Aderholt as his Gomie--not that I want them to meet a similar fate.  But unlike Walter White, they wouldn't know what's happening.

[Novel8]

I just want it to end...period.   This show has seen its best early on, and now each show is boring as hell. Just think we have to wait another half year in hoping next season would be the last.

[SlovakPrincess]

I would like to finally get some damn mileage out of the fact that Stan the FBI agent is friend and neighbor to Soviet spies!  I would like him to catch a clue sooner rather than later, and watch his suspicion and horror grow ... but I fear most of the last season will just be him in the Renee plot (which moves at a slower than glacial pace).

I am not looking forward to Paige serenely accepting the spy life, though I fear that's where we are headed.   We went from boring depressed Paige to boring "this is fine and normal and I'm no longer conflicted" Paige.  

Last night, I thought she was going to start a conversation with Henry on the evils of capitalism while watching Reagan's dangerous joke on TV -- and that Henry would be like "what?  Are you nuts?!"  Maybe next season -- would be nice to see the siblings converse at all, at this point, it's been so long!

I'd like to see Oleg get out of his mess, rather than a sad retread of Nina's story, which is what it's starting to look like.   

[SunnyBeBe]

I don't know what to expect or what to wish for now.  It's all rather hilarious.  These people can throw anything at us. 

I used to think that P & E might be killed in the finale season, but, now....I don't know. They could all end up having dinner at the Roy Rogers or IHOP.  lol  Recall that episode entitled Dinner for Seven? P, E, Paige, Henry, Tuan, Stan and Renee! Why not?  

Ref. Stan.....I wonder what he would do if he DOES discover that P & E are KGB.  AND THAT RENEE IS TOO!  How would he have the nerve to report them? He would look complicit.  No way he would be given any credit.  I mean, his live-in girlfriend and best friends/neighbors are all KGB.  Then, he's begging for pity for Oleg.......come one.  Looks fishy to me.  

[SunnyBeBe]

Hey, I know.  Stan realizes that he's totally screwed.  P & E get even more burned out, so they all pack up and disappear to South American and camp out in Pastor Tim's backyard!