S04.E12: A Roy Rogers in Franconia

[sistermagpie]

Just now, jrlr said:

Are Paige and Kimmie supposed to be the same age?

Yes, Kimmie is just months older than Paige. They were both 15 when Philip met her.

11 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Honestly at this point I think it might behoove P&E to introduce Paige to some of their "friends".  People who Paige can form bonds and friendships with.  Right now I think the whole concept is still to abstract for Paige to really understand.  

Hell introduce her to Gabriel. 

It's funny that she wanted family so much. Their family really are the other spies, especially Gabriel.

[RedheadZombie]

Am I the only one who doubted what Gabriel told William?  IMO, there's no way he would be gently retired and rewarded by returning to Mother Russia.  Unless they meant retired in the manner of Nina. 

I don't like the reminders of Elizabeth killing that old lady.  It was so unnecessary.  She was up there minding her own business when Elizabeth clumsily stumbled upon her.  If not for that, she would have continued on ignorant of what was occurring downstairs, and the FBI would not have ended up finding that bug.  A rare misstep.

I know we're watching a show where the Russian spies are the good guys and the murdered Americans are collateral damage, but I feel so out of tune with most posters in the never ending attacks on Paige.  How in the world is Paige the bad guy in this story?  To be honest, I wouldn't have a problem with Paige crossing the street and spilling her guts to Stan.  After all, wouldn't she be doing the EXACT same thing as her parents?  She would be fighting for HER country, just as they are fighting for theirs.   To be honest what I'm seeing is a teenager who has been completely mind fucked by her parents.  I think it must be very confusing to be Elizabeth's daughter.  Elizabeth vacillates between struggling to be touchy/feely, then morphing into what I imagine is her own mother, who is utterly terrifying. 

[sistermagpie]

25 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Am I the only one who doubted what Gabriel told William?  IMO, there's no way he would be gently retired and rewarded by returning to Mother Russia.  Unless they meant retired in the manner of Nina. 

It seems like people always assume that Russia is just itching to do this to everyone but I don't understand why. Why wouldn't you be allowed to serve your country faithfully for 30 years and then have your boss say look, he's burned out and it's better if he's retired, and so he does? Why would everybody have to end up murdered and imprisoned? I know there are certainly times when that could happen, and under Stalin it was the norm, but there are retired Illegals living in Russia now.

ETA:  I thought Do Robots Dream of Electric was the worst ep of the series hands-down. I felt like I didn't even get an ep that week. But I liked the conversation with Betty's son. He was more believable than Betty.

Edited June 7, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Chaos Theory]

29 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Am I the only one who doubted what Gabriel told William?  IMO, there's no way he would be gently retired and rewarded by returning to Mother Russia.  Unless they meant retired in the manner of Nina. 

I don't like the reminders of Elizabeth killing that old lady.  It was so unnecessary.  She was up there minding her own business when Elizabeth clumsily stumbled upon her.  If not for that, she would have continued on ignorant of what was occurring downstairs, and the FBI would not have ended up finding that bug.  A rare misstep.

I know we're watching a show where the Russian spies are the good guys and the murdered Americans are collateral damage, but I feel so out of tune with most posters in the never ending attacks on Paige.  How in the world is Paige the bad guy in this story?  To be honest, I wouldn't have a problem with Paige crossing the street and spilling her guts to Stan.  After all, wouldn't she be doing the EXACT same thing as her parents?  She would be fighting for HER country, just as they are fighting for theirs.   To be honest what I'm seeing is a teenager who has been completely mind fucked by her parents.  I think it must be very confusing to be Elizabeth's daughter.  Elizabeth vacillates between struggling to be touchy/feely, then morphing into what I imagine is her own mother, who is utterly terrifying. 

There is a reason Do Robots Dream Of Electric Sheep has become the go to episode of the series.  It is brilliant and tragic.  I like it because the Jennings do kill an innocent.   The episode removes all remaining illusions that they are the good guys.  Some of the lines of the episode were downright brilliant

I think Paige acts like any normal teenager COULD act under these circumstances.  Most tv shows have 8 year olds acting either overtly quirky or talking like they are thirty.   Paige acts and reacts like any normal American teen would.....or theoretically could.  I absolutely  think this season has been in part about discovering when the chips are down where Paige's loyalties lie.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[madam magpie]

Americans slaughtered at least one whole village in Vietnam. We dropped two atom bombs on innocent people to end WW2. We've killed thousands of civilians in the Middle East. Are we not still the "good guys" to many, many people? Innocent people die in war. It's awful, but it happens all the time. I don't think killing one innocent person in a war makes or breaks who Elizabeth is. I also don't necessarily think she and Philip are the good guys. They're the flawed heroes of this story, but so were Othello and Hamlet of theirs.

I don't think Gabriel was lying to William. He's not sold out the USSR yet. Nina was considered a traitor who spied against the Soviets for the US. Totally different situation.

Edited June 7, 2016 by madam magpie

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Am I the only one who doubted what Gabriel told William?

Not being the trusting sort, I assumed he was handling him with a load of crap that was as much for Philip's ears as William's. What he said to Martha was much the same (or was it Philip who said it?). It was clearly manipulative - of course you can retire and return home a hero. But before you can do that, you must do the thing you absolutely do not want to do. I don't know that I think they'd kill him, but I don't think he'd be returning to a hero's welcome or have the blissful life Gabriel described.

[RedheadZombie]

With all this talk that Paige's first responsibility is to her family - not her country, not her own moral compass -  I wonder how Elizabeth would explain the times she tattled on Philip.  Each time Elizabeth did that, she was putting country before family.  She endangered Philip's life as well as her children's way of life.  So Paige is being held to a higher standard than Elizabeth.

[millennium]

9 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

 

I know we're watching a show where the Russian spies are the good guys and the murdered Americans are collateral damage, but I feel so out of tune with most posters in the never ending attacks on Paige.  How in the world is Paige the bad guy in this story?  

Speaking for myself only, Paige is annoying, her storyline is uninteresting, the actress sucks, and every week she's THERE demanding this or that or this AND that, or she's upset or overwhelmed or whatever.   She's not the bad guy in terms of being an antagonist,  but in the sense that her character has hijacked the plot which tends to slow to a crawl every time she's on the screen.

[scartact]

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It seems like people always assume that Russia is just itching to do this to everyone but I don't understand why. Why wouldn't you be allowed to serve your country faithfully for 30 years and then have your boss say look, he's burned out and it's better if he's retired, and so he does? Why would everybody have to end up murdered and imprisoned? I know there are certainly times when that could happen, and under Stalin it was the norm, but there are retired Illegals living in Russia now.

I think it's just a U.S. bias that because we "won" the Cold War, it is easier to read and understand those moments as potentially duplicitous. It seems that a lot of us hold a degree of suspicion, whether we intend to or not, and that comes out when people question whether certain characters like Gabriel and Claudia or the Centre are actually telling the truth. I do think the show plays with our internal biases sometimes, so it's interesting to always gauge how we respond.

As for the show's conceit, I don't think we're supposed to believe any one side is the "good" or "bad", but there is definitely intention (to me) in the exploration of empathy and humanity. I'm reluctant to deem anyone necessarily good or bad, but I do have a ton of empathy for most of these characters, whether or not I agree with their actions.

4 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

With all this talk that Paige's first responsibility is to her family - not her country, not her own moral compass -  I wonder how Elizabeth would explain the times she tattled on Philip.  Each time Elizabeth did that, she was putting country before family.  She endangered Philip's life as well as her children's way of life.  So Paige is being held to a higher standard than Elizabeth.

She would probably have to admit to herself that there was a point where she responded more certainly to her ideology than to Philip and their family. This makes me wonder how recruiting Paige would have been different had Elizabeth not fallen in love with Philip and had they not agreed to make their marriage real. I'm not sure if I would say Paige is being held to a higher standard; what they're doing is just different. Paige is working to protect her family, while Elizabeth reporting on Philip was to keep tabs on his loyalty.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 3:21 PM, Umbelina said:

I never, ever believe Gabe has anyone's best interests at heart.  He's a handler, and he's seen a lot.  I doubt he has any delusions left about what began as a great cause.  William strikes me as a pragmatist, still loyal, but with no scales on his eyes about "home."  He's also watched a dream disintegrate into horrible yuck.  His partner was killed.  He knows the USSR is completely broke, and hopelessly corrupt.  He doesn't like the United States any better, after all, we are the ones developing that bio weapon.  He's like an old jaded spy that sees that both sides are full of shit.  He's trying to be like the one person he actually does admire, they guy who didn't launch the nukes in spite of what the equipment was telling him.  He's down to his own morality now, screw these awful governments, and simply do what is right as a person.  He basically

  Hide contents

kills himself next episode to not give up

Philip and Gabe, I don't know if he cares about Elizabeth, other than she's Philip's wife.

I love your entire post, but I cropped it to what I want to address. 

Regarding William - When did we learn that his partner was killed?  I thought he said his "wife" was re-called to the Soviet Union.

It's funny how we can get such different impressions.  When Gabriel first started working with them again, I thought it was obvious that he cared more for Elizabeth, and Elizabeth really trusted him.  I thought Philip was much more cautious, if not suspicious of Gabriel.

On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 5:56 PM, hellmouse said:

In rewatching that scene, i thought that Philip and Elizabeth were alarmed that Paige was going to start working Matthew and getting in over her head. Philip said you do not have to do anything for us, and I think by anything he meant with Matthew. They would be horrified if Paige started dating Matthew in order to report on Stan. But Paige didn't understand that. She probably wasn't even thinking of that. Her parents are ten steps ahead of her in terms of how a relationship can be used to gain information. Paige was just thinking, wait a minute, that isn't true, I do have to do things for you. 

And then of course the phone rang, ending that line of discussion. 

I also think that Philip was being specific but vague when he answered her question about what he was picking up. It was Elizabeth who decided to tell everything, about it being part of a weapon, and I think that was a result of their conversation earlier, when Paige said "you never tell me the whole truth". So in this moment, Elizabeth decided to tell the whole truth. IMO it's a mistake because Paige can't handle it, but I can see where Elizabeth was coming from. 

Regarding your first paragraph - I think Philip and Elizabeth could have handled the situation much more efficiently.  In a way it reminds me of something that happened when I was a kid.  I was a worrier and one day when we were at the bank I became anxious and asked my mom if we had enough money.  She told me I was just a kid, everything was fine, and it wasn't my responsibility to worry about the money.  The problem with Paige is her parents have already brought her into their secret, and they're unsure where they should draw the boundaries.  I don't even think they have to do it in a way that makes Paige feel like shit, like telling her they can't tell her anything because she already betrayed them.

I think they could simply tell her that it was their fault for revealing their secret when she was too young to process it on her own.  They could also tell her that their work is adult stuff, and she's simply too young at this point to be told the fine details.  They can stress that the less they tell her, the less she's actually complicit in their crimes.  And instead of telling her that she doesn't have to work Mathew, they should have told her - DO NOT work Mathew.  It's dangerous and you're not trained in that area.  If necessary Philip could have told Paige how Stan once snooped in their garage when he was suspicious.  And spell it out in black and white what will happen if they're caught.  I believe espionage is a capital offense.  And Paige and Henry would most likely be split up and placed in foster homes.

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Regarding William - When did we learn that his partner was killed?  I thought he said his "wife" was re-called to the Soviet Union.

 

Yeah, that's all we know, that she was recalled. 

8 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

It's funny how we can get such different impressions.  When Gabriel first started working with them again, I thought it was obvious that he cared more for Elizabeth, and Elizabeth really trusted him.  I thought Philip was much more cautious, if not suspicious of Gabriel.

On 6/3/2016 at 5:56 PM, hellmouse said:

Definitely. Answering more in the Gabriel thread I just started because we didn't seem to have one!

8 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

And instead of telling her that she doesn't have to work Mathew, they should have told her - DO NOT work Mathew.  It's dangerous and you're not trained in that area.  If necessary Philip could have told Paige how Stan once snooped in their garage when he was suspicious. 

I think this is in part what makes people frustrated. Paige seems like such a big danger, having already spilled the beans once, that the audience often wants them to be stressing that while the show has them stressing things like "Live your own life! We don't want you to work Matthew because we don't want you to live for us." Sort of like how in Stingers they barely stress the danger as if it's obvious, but it's not obvious to Paige. 

Quote

She would probably have to admit to herself that there was a point where she responded more certainly to her ideology than to Philip and their family. This makes me wonder how recruiting Paige would have been different had Elizabeth not fallen in love with Philip and had they not agreed to make their marriage real. I'm not sure if I would say Paige is being held to a higher standard; what they're doing is just different. Paige is working to protect her family, while Elizabeth reporting on Philip was to keep tabs on his loyalty.

Yes, it wouldn't be the first time Elizabeth was a bit hypocritical. In the past she not only put the Cause before her family she was determined to do so. Gregory says this flat-out in S1. But I think she also at this point doesn't see Paige as having a competing loyalty since her country is the US. 

Edited June 8, 2016 by sistermagpie

[RedHawk]

William's "wife" in the USA was probably as much of a wife as Elizabeth was when she and Philip began their assignment. So they're not a legal couple in any country and thus Gabriel meant William could find a true wife, someone he'd have a loving relationship with, no pretending or "work" involved.

[jrlr]

10 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

 

Regarding William - When did we learn that his partner was killed?  I thought he said his "wife" was re-called to the Soviet Union. 

If necessary Philip could have told Paige how Stan once snooped in their garage when he was suspicious.  And spell it out in black and white what will happen if they're caught.  I believe espionage is a capital offense.  And Paige and Henry would most likely be split up and placed in foster homes.

William did say his wife was recalled to the Soviet Union - I don't remember hearing anything about her being killed (although I immediately thought that that was what really happened).

As for Philip and Elizabeth being caught, if that's going to happen it's got to be when the series ends, at which point Paige will be old enough to go to college or live on her own.  Or she could be fostered by the Groovyhairs and keep wearing those hideous buttoned up outfits and Henry could be fostered by Stan and embark on an endless period of playing video games.  

[RedHawk]

^ Re: "Paige's hideous buttoned up outfits". Well, her out is that "that was the style at the time". 

[topanga]

18 minutes ago, jrlr said:

William did say his wife was recalled to the Soviet Union - I don't remember hearing anything about her being killed (although I immediately thought that that was what really happened).

That's what I thought, too. Especially when Gabriel told William that he would return to the USSR as a hero, "find a wife." So that means his previous wife wouldn't be an option, correct?

[jrlr]

10 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

^ Re: "Paige's hideous buttoned up outfits". Well, her out is that "that was the style at the time". 

LOL!  But off-the-shoulder sweatshirts, leggings and tight jeans were also in style in the early 80s.  Phillip should introduce Paige to Kimmie for some less-hideous fashion advice. :)

21 minutes ago, topanga said:

That's what I thought, too. Especially when Gabriel told William that he would return to the USSR as a hero, "find a wife." So that means his previous wife wouldn't be an option, correct?

It could also mean that William's "wife" was assigned, just like Philip and Elizabeth were.  So if William returned home, he would be an unmarried man who could find someone of his own choosing to marry.

[sistermagpie]

24 minutes ago, jrlr said:

LOL!  But off-the-shoulder sweatshirts, leggings and tight jeans were also in style in the early 80s.  Phillip should introduce Paige to Kimmie for some less-hideous fashion advice. :)

44 minutes ago, topanga said:

Answering in the fashion thread...

[RedHawk]

23 minutes ago, jrlr said:

LOL!  But off-the-shoulder sweatshirts, leggings and tight jeans were also in style in the early 80s.  Phillip should introduce Paige to Kimmie for some less-hideous fashion advice. :)

It could also mean that William's "wife" was assigned, just like Philip and Elizabeth were.  So if William returned home, he would be an unmarried man who could find someone of his own choosing to marry.

Very true about what was in style -- "Flashdance" came out in spring of '83 and it's now late '83 in show-world. Paige, despite listening to Yaz, is not the type of girl to be "fashion forward", LOL! She seems very comfortable in her little church-girl outfits with her tiny cross necklace. I'm hoping she rebels in a big way next season. Maybe she and Matthew will stumble onto Philip's stash of awesome Afghani pot and partake, then listen to Simple Minds.

[kokapetl]

"Welder by day, dancer by night" is actually more believable than "travel agent by day, Soviet agent by night". 

[AliShibaz]

Wow! It never dawned on me. But converting Paige to a KGB operative would be an amazing plot turn. Can you imagine?

Especially if it turned out that she was really well suited to this work and had a hidden talent for being one of the best agents the KGB ever had. That would def be one way I could forgive and forget all the exasperating cliff-hanging we have suffered with Paige. Speaking of which ... I sure do hope like crazy that we don't get another Paige cliff-hanger as the season finale tonight. I really don't know how I could endure such a horrible thing.

I don't mind cliff hanging from one season to the next. But surely they have to change the subject every season. They can't show us a situation where Paige or Pastor Dim or his wife appear to be ready to drop a dime on P&E only to find out they changed their minds next season. That would be just too much like last season's cliff hanger.

If they want to give us a suspenseful finale, I would be quite happy if Dim and his wife die in some suspicious accident and then allow us to find out next season that P & E had nothing to do with it. I wouldn't mind one bit. I'd really like to see the end of the Pastor and his wife just as soon as possible. I'm sorry but I'm just fed up and exasperated with that story line. Enough is enough with that.

Edited June 8, 2016 by AliShibaz

[SunnyBeBe]

I think my idea of a boarding school for Paige is different that what most might have. The place could be set up by the Center.  You know, it looks like a boarding school, the way the Jennings have a Travel Agency.  The thing is that it would have to check out, if Stan, Pastor Tim or Matthew ever checked up on it. Plus, it would have to have tight controls on Paige.  She may or may not realize what the deal is.

[Umbelina]

12 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I love your entire post, but I cropped it to what I want to address. 

Regarding William - When did we learn that his partner was killed?  I thought he said his "wife" was re-called to the Soviet Union.

It's funny how we can get such different impressions.  When Gabriel first started working with them again, I thought it was obvious that he cared more for Elizabeth, and Elizabeth really trusted him.  I thought Philip was much more cautious, if not suspicious of Gabriel.

Regarding your first paragraph - I think Philip and Elizabeth could have handled the situation much more efficiently.  In a way it reminds me of something that happened when I was a kid.  I was a worrier and one day when we were at the bank I became anxious and asked my mom if we had enough money.  She told me I was just a kid, everything was fine, and it wasn't my responsibility to worry about the money.  The problem with Paige is her parents have already brought her into their secret, and they're unsure where they should draw the boundaries.  I don't even think they have to do it in a way that makes Paige feel like shit, like telling her they can't tell her anything because she already betrayed them.

I think they could simply tell her that it was their fault for revealing their secret when she was too young to process it on her own.  They could also tell her that their work is adult stuff, and she's simply too young at this point to be told the fine details.  They can stress that the less they tell her, the less she's actually complicit in their crimes.  And instead of telling her that she doesn't have to work Mathew, they should have told her - DO NOT work Mathew.  It's dangerous and you're not trained in that area.  If necessary Philip could have told Paige how Stan once snooped in their garage when he was suspicious.  And spell it out in black and white what will happen if they're caught.  I believe espionage is a capital offense.  And Paige and Henry would most likely be split up and placed in foster homes.

I think William's partner is dead, but yes, the show only said "recalled."  It was the way he said it, combined with the fact he never heard another word about her, and the implication the KGB was unhappy with her.  Why on earth would she be reassigned after letting them down in the USA, after the years of training they gave her?  So to me, the moment he said that my mind read "recalled" as a euphemism. 

I think people keep forgetting that telling Paige wasn't ever an "IF" it was always a "WHO" and "WHEN."  The KGB made it perfectly clear that if the Jennings didn't handle this, they would, using the same methods they always use when recruiting, and in Paige's case, that would probably be another honey-trap sealed by the eventual reveal, after she was totally besotted, that, oh by the way, your parents are KGB too.

At the same time, of course, Paige was adding up all the inconsistencies in their lives and demanding honestly from her parents.  It came together in a perfect storm really. 

[millennium]

What I don't understand about the "all-Paige-all-the-time" storyline is what demographic are the writers appealing to by making a 15-year-old girl the primary focus?

Many adults have kids of their own to hassle with.   Not sure they want to see whiny Paige tormenting her parents when they sit down in the evening for an hour's escape.   

It only makes sense if they're trying to lure some of the CW's audience over to their side of the street.

[Umbelina]

The family is the primary interest and focus of the show, it's simply set in a spy world.  So, having children is part of the premise.

[millennium]

41 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The family is the primary interest and focus of the show, it's simply set in a spy world.  So, having children is part of the premise.

I would disagree that the family has always been the primary interest.   I think it's more about Philip and Elizabeth's relationship surviving in the face of incredible pressures.   The children always struck me as window dressing,  not unlike the travel agency.    Then it all went to shit this season.  And I don't see any way out.   Paige is here to stay.

[sistermagpie]

21 minutes ago, millennium said:

I would disagree that the family has always been the primary interest.   I think it's more about Philip and Elizabeth's relationship surviving in the face of incredible pressures.   The children always struck me as window dressing,  not unlike the travel agency.    Then it all went to shit this season.  And I don't see any way out.   Paige is here to stay.

Oh, I think the kids have always been central. Even in the first person they’re talking about them as a central concern in their life. They were just young enough that they weren’t dealing with their parents as people. Plus, of course, the first season was about them beginning their marriage so there was a lot more focus on their romance apart from the kids, but the whole religious storyline started right away in season 2. I think they were always obviously going towards the idea of how you parent as your kids grow up and see you more as people instead of just parents.

 

Henry’s now about the age that Paige was when the show started and he’s starting to get the lingering camera focus when his parents walk out with Paige. There was even in this ep Matthew stressing that Stan was good with *younger* kids which I think had a lot of meanings, but part of it is that everyone still sees Henry as just a kid even when he’s interested in things like boobs and beer.

 

But eventually I think his maturing process is going to be similar to Paige’s in that he might start out fighting a surrogate adult he only sees in situations that are all about his entertainment and dealing with his concerns, but he wants to be closer to his parents and knowing what’s going on in his family.

[wendyg]

To the people who think Paige would wind up in solitary confinement: not in the US, she wouldn't. In the real life case that's been referenced elsewhere, the US held that tthe children of people in the employ of a foreign government are not US citizens, even if they are born in the US. Paige and Henry would be questioned intensively and then deported.

[Umbelina]

How are they not citizens when they were born here?

[Moose135]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

How are they not citizens when they were born here?

I'm looking for a specific legal reference, but I've seen several items that say children born to parents in the service of a foreign government at the time of birth are not considered citizens.  That usually refers to children of diplomats and other embassy workers, but could apply to the case of children of foreign spies.

[Umbelina]

Well, embassies are technically the ground of the country occupying them, but Philip and Elizabeth have never been part of the embassy delegation.  I'd love to see the law on this if you find it.

[SunnyBeBe]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Well, embassies are technically the ground of the country occupying them, but Philip and Elizabeth have never been part of the embassy delegation.  I'd love to see the law on this if you find it.

Interesting question. I found this article.  VERY similar fact pattern.  I don't have time right now to follow up and see what has happened to these real life kids.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Parenting/russian-spy-ring-happen-kids/story?id=11069481

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

How are they not citizens when they were born here?

With the kids in the news it was because their parents were considered like ambassadors--but it's not a given that the exact same thing would happen to the Jennings kids. It's just a possibility. They even brought that up in Trust Me when the fake FBI agent wondered aloud if the kids were Americans or in a grey area. Those other kids had Canadian citizenship because they were born in the Canada so in that case it was the same.

[wendyg]

Those kids were deported - but yes, you're right, that was Canada; I had misremembered the country that pulled their citizenship. Other stories I've read say the younger one lost his university place and is still struggling to get his life/career back on track; the older one did OK. The story I saw said they had come around to

This story covers their fight to get their citizenship back: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/their-parents-were-russian-spies-so-they-cannot-be-canadian

The parents used their fake Canadian identities to become naturalized US citizens and moved to the US when the younger kid was one. So the boys weren't entitled to US citizenship - that's the detail I'd lost. Both were deported.

I still think Paige would be more likely to be deported than put in solitary anywhere...but I'm asking someone who knows the ins and outs of naturalization law.

[wendyg]

My expert in this area of law says:

- Everyone born in the 50 states is a US citizen per the 14th amendment unless both parents are on the diplomatic list. Everyone born in the five offshore territories are also citizens, by statute.  However, citizens born to foreign sovereigns are not US citizens, and there are some exceptions for children born to enemy aliens.

Therefore, Paige and Henry are both US citizens. (Unless the US could make a case that Philip and Elizabeth are enemy aliens, I guess; not sure how that's defined.)

HOWEVER, Philip and Elizabeth could certainly be deported - happens "all the time" and we've seen people told to leave on the show - and  in that case the parents then have the option of taking the kids with them, leaving them with friends or family, or having them fostered and adopted out. Most likely, I guess, is that if Phil and Elizabeth decided not to take the kids, Paige would live with Pastor Tim and Alice until she reaches majority (and spend a lot of time answering questions - but really, she knows hardly anything), and Henry...well, Stan could adopt him. :)

[sistermagpie]

54 minutes ago, wendyg said:

Therefore, Paige and Henry are both US citizens. (Unless the US could make a case that Philip and Elizabeth are enemy aliens, I guess; not sure how that's defined.)

Yes, that's the grey area they brought up on the show. Presumably this is exactly what happened with the Canadian kids. I can't imagine that Philip and Elizabeth wouldn't be considered enemy aliens. Seems like that's exactly what they are. The question then just becomes what the US government wanted to do. Would they think it was better PR to keep the kids as Americans? Paige at this point also knows about her parents as is covering for them so that might also make them want to consider her a Soviet citizen. So far Elizabeth and Philip seem set on keeping the kids with them.

Frankly, Pastor Tim himself might not be able to foster anybody if everything came out and his own collusion with these enemy agents came out. I don't know how well he'd be able to cover up that he's intentionally protecting them too.

It's funny a lot of how many people in the past honestly argued for Stan adopting Henry, even acted like he'd already done it, even though a big part of Stan's personal story is that he's far less present than the Jennings who are considered criminally neglectful sometimes even when they're in the same room!

[kokapetl]

It's borderline impossible, but if Paige and Henry's citizenship were to be revoked, they'd probably be considered stateless. A person could choose to renounce their American citizenship and acquire Soviet citizenship, but I don't think a person could be forced to do either. 

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

It's borderline impossible, but if Paige and Henry's citizenship were to be revoked, they'd probably be considered stateless. A person could choose to renounce their American citizenship and acquire Soviet citizenship, but I don't think a person could be forced to do either. 

They wouldn't be stateless. They'd be Soviet citizens. I'm sure they already are, they just don't know it. That's what happened to the Canadian kids.

[kokapetl]

I guess Russia gave the Canadian kids citizenship, but Paige and Henry Jennings only current, existing, and legal identities would be as US citizens Paige and Henry Jennings. 

Canada was run by assholes in 2010. 

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

I guess Russia gave the Canadian kids citizenship, but Paige and Henry Jennings only current, existing, and legal identities would be as US citizens Paige and Henry Jennings. 

Those are the only identities they're aware of but I'm pretty positive that the USSR has records of their identities as children of their citizens who are currently Illegals. Their names on that citizenship would probably have a last name that's either Philip's real family name or Elizabeth's. I think that's what happened to the Canadian kids--they weren't just given Russian IDs as a courtesy, they were already in their system.

[Roseanna]

On ‎2‎.‎6‎.‎2016 at 6:14 AM, sistermagpie said:

I will always hold it against Oleg for throwing William under that bus. Come on, he just betrayed an Illegal. He must know what a big deal that is.

 

On ‎2‎.‎6‎.‎2016 at 6:15 AM, AimingforYoko said:

Oh, he absolutely knows the stakes. That's why he did it.

 

On ‎2‎.‎6‎.‎2016 at 2:19 PM, Ailianna said:

I don't think Oleg knew it was an Illegal he was turning them onto.  He knew they had a source, or deduced it, but there is no reason for him to think it was an Illegal as opposed to an actual American who had been turned in some fashion.  Keep in mind that he didn't have direct knowledge of any of it; this was his deduction from a variety of things, not least of which was Tatiana's off-hand comment about killing half the eastern seaboard.  I don't think it was his conversation with mom that was his tipping point; I think he was getting close, but it was that idea that hundreds of thousands or millions of people could die and all she cared about was her promotion.  It reminded him that it's too easy for many of the people in charge to believe that actual real people are hurt by their actions.  For all he knows, it's some guy being blackmailed who will be relieved to be found out, not an Illegal.

 

On ‎2‎.‎6‎.‎2016 at 7:40 PM, sistermagpie said:

Seriously, I think Oleg's got a little bit of his own Paige syndrome here. His experience of life is very different than every other Russian on the show (just as Gabriel's is different from P&E's for instance). He's got some idea of the danger of talking to Stan but I'll bet he still feels some protection as the son of the Minister of Railways.

- - -

Yeah, but that doesn't really matter. Oleg didn't know because he was in the Residentura and was just tipping Stan off. I really wonder if he'll find out that he outed one of the Illegals, a person who's sacrificed his whole life for his country, and potentially outed 2 more. Unlike Philip and Elizabeth and William himself, Oleg isn't face to face with his victim. He can just imagine this is fine, it's an American, not one of the Illegals he was so eager to get more information about when he first got there. William and Philip of course agreed with William about not sending the sample, but they weren't turning in other agents to do so. And even if William had decided not to do this mission he would have been burned.

I think that Oleg's deed showed that there are greater values than patriotism - humanity. Therefore and because he was afraid that the Soviets couldn't handle the Lassa fever (remember the conversation with Tatiana where he told that because of the Soviet radas were so bad, the nuclear war almost broke out), he made his choice to sacrifice a few people in order to save millions of people.  

 I don't think that Oleg is so naive that he believes that his father can protect him if his deed is invented - he can't. On the countrary, as a father of the traitor he will lose his job, his pension, his datcha, his right to shop in an exclusive shops, all his priviledges as a member of nomenklatura.

The real danger is that Oleg has put his life in Stan's hands - if Stan had a recorded, he has now much better blanckmail material than before and I wouldn't trust Stan not to use it. He would be a fool not to.       

Edited August 5, 2017 by Roseanna

[Roseanna]

Continueining: the whole plot of Lassa fever showed brilliantly different attitudes of Gabriel, Philip, William, Tatiana and Oleg.

It's self-evident that Gabriel who have lived through the purges in the 30ies that the Soviet Union must have the same weapons as the US.

William had doubts, but he could be persuaded, just as Philip earlier. Both were born during the war and lived their childhood during poor post-war years. They evidently joined the KGB so early that they had no connection with de-Stalinization and have lived almost 20 years in the US.

Oleg is in his 30ies and lived a priviledged life in USSR and has fully enhoyed his stay in the US. His first hardhips in life were Nina's death sentence for treason which he found unjustified because she worked hard to atone it and his brother's death in Afghanistan. I don't doubt his love for Motherland but to him there are also other values.

Tatiana is of the same age as Oleg but she, like  Nina, has a poor backgound. So far we don't know much about her, except that she works hard to reach her goals and doesn't call in question the methods (biological weapons). Her motives are so far unclear: is she a dedicated Communist, a Russian patriot or would she do anything to get higher in her career? Or two or three?

Unlike the ultra feminine, sensual and attractive Nina, Tatiana seemed to the stereotype of the un-feminine, work-alcholic Communist in the Hollywood filmsm, until her liaision with Oleg showed else. But had she other motives than sex to bed Oleg? Or did he? The bed is a place to share secrets.   

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Oleg is in his 30ies and lived a priviledged life in USSR and has fully enhoyed his stay in the US. His first hardhips in life were Nina's death sentence for treason which he found unjustified because she worked hard to atone it and his brother's death in Afghanistan. I don't doubt his love for Motherland but to him there are also other values.

Yes, this fascinates me. It's not that Oleg is naive--how could he be? He doesn't think his father's position gives him the power to do whatever he wants.  But our lived experiences are more important in how we understand the world than what we know in our heads. Oleg knows how serious a risk he's taking, but his upbringing I think still makes him more likely to take it than someone else might be. He doesn't seem to have ever lived with the fear or deprivation that would drive many other characters.

[Roseanna]

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, this fascinates me. It's not that Oleg is naive--how could he be? He doesn't think his father's position gives him the power to do whatever he wants.  But our lived experiences are more important in how we understand the world than what we know in our heads. Oleg knows how serious a risk he's taking, but his upbringing I think still makes him more likely to take it than someone else might be. He doesn't seem to have ever lived with the fear or deprivation that would drive many other characters.

I agree that our experience influence us, but that doesn't explain Oleg. He was too young to remember de-Stalinization,  he grew-up during Brezhnew's stagnation years.  And because of his father's position he has always been priviledged.  It would be no wonder he would be just the playboy he was at first presented.  He could have made a good career without any strong ideological enthusiatism (that was rare in the 80ies), just to maintain his priviledged status.

But Oleg is not just a man determined of circumstances. Just like Nina in the end was.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I agree that our experience influence us, but that doesn't explain Oleg. He was too young to remember de-Stalinization,  he grew-up during Brezhnew's stagnation years.  And because of his father's position he has always been priviledged.  It would be no wonder he would be just the playboy he was at first presented.  He could have made a good career without any strong ideological enthusiatism (that was rare in the 80ies), just to maintain his priviledged status.

Oh yes, I didn't mean to imply that Oleg was complete explained by his circumstances--he seems like a unique person and has surprised even other characters on the show. (Plus his family situation isn't generic--his father and mother seem like very specific people too.) I just mean that his relatively privileged position growing up is part of what makes up his character. Somebody like Gabriel, for instance, is going to have a very different way of looking at risks. It's not the only thing that makes them different, but it's one of the things that does.

[Roseanna]

I am interested to learn what the US law says: is it a crime not to report if one finds out that someone is going to do acts of treason, spying, genocide, massacre, homicide, rape etc that could be avoided if reported in time? And is one free of the duty to report if the guilty one is a family member that one is allowed not to testify against?

Regarding Paige, what I find annoying is that she wants to eat her cake and still have it. She is unable to accept that there is no easy solution. Either she choses her country and denounces her parents - or she choses her parents, whatever that means. In the first alternative she loses her parents and she and Henry also will have the consequences (a foster home and new identities and never tell anybody their original ones? or citizenship denied and deportation from the US?) . Nobody knows what happens in the second alternative but it can also end in the same result. So it's also a choice between "sure bad now" or "living afraid of bad in the future".  

Rewatching this ep I thought at first that P & E were stupid to tell her such details as "acts of weapon" to Paige. But then I realized that they are manipulating her with the truth just like Philip did with Martha.  

Edited August 10, 2017 by Roseanna
The italic sentence is changed

[Roseanna]

On ‎7‎.‎6‎.‎2016 at 9:24 PM, RedheadZombie said:

Am I the only one who doubted what Gabriel told William?  IMO, there's no way he would be gently retired and rewarded by returning to Mother Russia.  Unless they meant retired in the manner of Nina. 

 

On ‎7‎.‎6‎.‎2016 at 9:28 PM, sistermagpie said:

It seems like people always assume that Russia is just itching to do this to everyone but I don't understand why. Why wouldn't you be allowed to serve your country faithfully for 30 years and then have your boss say look, he's burned out and it's better if he's retired, and so he does? Why would everybody have to end up murdered and imprisoned? I know there are certainly times when that could happen, and under Stalin it was the norm, but there are retired Illegals living in Russia now.

 

On ‎7‎.‎6‎.‎2016 at 11:43 PM, Clanstarling said:

Not being the trusting sort, I assumed he was handling him with a load of crap that was as much for Philip's ears as William's. What he said to Martha was much the same (or was it Philip who said it?). It was clearly manipulative - of course you can retire and return home a hero. But before you can do that, you must do the thing you absolutely do not want to do. I don't know that I think they'd kill him, but I don't think he'd be returning to a hero's welcome or have the blissful life Gabriel described.

I believe that Gabriel spoke the truth: William would be treated a hero because (unlike Martha) he would have willingly endager to his life to give his country a new "weapon" (as Elizabeth called it). But Clanstarling is right to stress that he must first do what he doesn't want to do. Before all, he regards the Lassa fever a too terrible weapon and suspects that the Soviet laboratories may handle it incautiously which would endanger Soviet people instead of the "enemy".

Actually, this was William's only chance to retire. If he just had said no, he could hardly have returned home. And if he had lived in the US, there would be a chance that his earlier crimes would be found out. And if he wanted to make deal with FBI, he would have denounced Gabriel and P & E. 

I think it was brilliant to show how William and Oleg made different decisions. Plus, in order to follow his conscience Oleg had to betray his new lover, Tatiana.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎7‎.‎6‎.‎2016 at 9:24 PM, RedheadZombie said:

I don't like the reminders of Elizabeth killing that old lady.  It was so unnecessary.  She was up there minding her own business when Elizabeth clumsily stumbled upon her.  If not for that, she would have continued on ignorant of what was occurring downstairs, and the FBI would not have ended up finding that bug.  A rare misstep.

 

On ‎7‎.‎6‎.‎2016 at 9:39 PM, Chaos Theory said:

There is a reason Do Robots Dream Of Electric Sheep has become the go to episode of the series.  It is brilliant and tragic.  I like it because the Jennings do kill an innocent.   The episode removes all remaining illusions that they are the good guys.  Some of the lines of the episode were downright brilliant.

I think that the most tragic point was that an innocent had been killed for nothing as there was much information that was useless - but when there was one useful information (that Stan suspected Martha) it was never found out by the Soviets and Philip had to decide whtether Martha was in danger or not without being quite sure.   

[Roseanna]

On ‎7‎.‎6‎.‎2016 at 9:24 PM, RedheadZombie said:

I know we're watching a show where the Russian spies are the good guys and the murdered Americans are collateral damage

 

On ‎8‎.‎6‎.‎2016 at 7:34 AM, scartact said:

As for the show's conceit, I don't think we're supposed to believe any one side is the "good" or "bad", but there is definitely intention (to me) in the exploration of empathy and humanity. I'm reluctant to deem anyone necessarily good or bad, but I do have a ton of empathy for most of these characters, whether or not I agree with their actions.

I agree with Scartact. Plus, understanding doesn't mean accepting irl. One can enjoy reading Anna Karenina without cheating one's spouse irl.

Of course, like in Deutschland 83, when the protagonist is in danger, one instinctively hopes that he isn't caught. But that doesn't mean that one would hope that the Soviets would have won the Cold War.   

[Roseanna]

Elizabeth told Paige about her childhood in Smolensk and how people stuck together during WW2. Now, as she said that she was two when the war ended, so she had own memories of it but have just got the Soviet official war myth. 

Now, I not saying that many Soviet citizens fought heroicially and made great sacrifices, but many also turned traitors to which Stalin's terror had caused ample reason (not to speak of that the people whose own state had been crushed and who had become Soviet citizens only in 1939-40 had of couse no reason to loyalty).

And if the general moral had been so hign, there would have no need to use so much severe punishment  strengten morale. We know that Elizabeth's father was executed for deserting. I wonder if it was a real desertation or just panic that many soldiers experienced f.ex. meeting tanks the first time but, if treated right, they generally became good soldiers after that initial shock. 

As is said earlier, the young Elizabeth had a strong motive to redeem her father's shame. Zhukov said it something like this: she was chosen because she is afraid that she fails. 

[Roseanna]

I think P & E made a mistake when they told Paige such details that Philip was fetching "a part of arm" to help the Soviet army. Not only because that would have alerted most people to inform FBI (although surprisingly not Paige), but also that one should never tell any secret matters to anybody who haven't a right to know it. What one doesn't know, one can't tell anybody or reveal without realizing it.