S01.E16: Legendary

[Sakura12]

He can travel through time but can't travel to two states? 

Yeah, I was wondering why it seemed like everyone else was home for a couple of days, while Sara was only shown at home for one day. I guess she could've stayed a few more days with Quentin. But that might screw up Arrow's timeline. 

[kismet]

They started their mission in SC, which is why they finished it in SC. It's not that hard to make it back to CC.

[Starfish35]

6 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Savage probably did that while she was unconscious. Uggh. I just squicked myself out thinking about that.

Ughh indeed. *shudders*

[tarotx]

45 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

He can travel through time but can't travel to two states? 

Yeah, I was wondering why it seemed like everyone else was home for a couple of days, while Sara was only shown at home for one day. I guess she could've stayed a few more days with Quentin. But that might screw up Arrow's timeline. 

 

1

Well maybe Sara fell asleep at Laurel's? She told her dad that she was at Laurel's but no one was there. I know there was no change of clothes and that I haven't fan wonk yet. I can fan wonk her saying she just got back as meaning recently. I know I know not a very good fan wonk...

Edited May 21, 2016 by tarotx

[henripootel]

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The show makes it clear the family is still dead.  Sorry that the explanation isn't good enough for you, but they are dead.  

Did they not also make it clear that doing the meteor thing made Savage mortal?  So when he died, he died for realsies, in all three instances. 

And I know they said his family is still dead, I'm just calling bullshit on it.  The fact that they said something that doesn't add up doesn't mean it suddenly makes sense, in fact, it's what makes it 'bullshit'.  How many times did they make it abundantly clear that Savage can only, only be killed (for realsies) with a certain weapon wielded by a certain hand.  No other ways.  But, as it turns out, he can also be killed when he casts some spell nobody ever heard of, which they're also sure will make Savage mortal again.  How'd they know that?  Did I mishear it?   

Edited May 21, 2016 by henripootel

[tarotx]

Savage only died-died once. He was calling on the power that gave him his immortality, which left him vulnerable. But all 3 rituals had to release the radiation power and that only happened in that last death in 2021. The 3rd times the charm.  And yes the spell was a kind of deus ex machina but, though in English, both the Hawks and Savage recited words that gave them their powers when they were first killed during the Eastern Egyptian meteorite shower and Malcolm recited words when collecting Savage's Ashes during the Flarrow crossover. So this shouldn't be exactly shocking to any of us. Savage that is in 2021 is the Savage that killed Rip's family. Since Rip was only finally killed then, Rip's family will stay dead. 

[henripootel]

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Savage only died-died once.

Went back for a rewatch and I respectfully disagree.  Rip was clear that the attacks on Savage had to occur 'simultaneously' in each time period (which makes no sense, but whatever).  Mick asked how long he had to wait to kill Savage and Ray clearly told him that once the ritual began, Savage would be mortal.  Savage even told Mick that he couldn't be killed, to which Mick replied 'I guess you haven't heard the news'.  My conclusion: they seem to think Savage had to be killed in each time period, and was.  The true death, not the other kind.

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Savage that is in 2021 is the Savage that killed Rip's family. Since Rip was only finally killed then, Rip's family will stay dead. 

Nope.  Here we get into the vagaries of time travel, and I'll try to stick to what we saw in this episode (since the writers seem to change their minds on this).  Savage 2021's memory of the past is an unreliable indicator of what's going to happen in the future, meaning that he might remember event in his past that will now never occur.  How we know this - Savage 1958 and Savage 1975 are both doing things that Savage 2021 never, ever did, namely dump blood on the meteorite and say the words.  We know they never did because the world continued to exist after 1958, which, had Savage 2021 done this in his original timeline, it wouldn't have.  Also, Mick seems to be under the impression that Savage 1958 is dead dead, forever, and nothing we see contradicts this.  Conclusion: Savage 2021's memories of his life are not a reliable account of how events will eventually unfold.  Savage 2021's life unfolded this way and he  remembers killing Rip's family, but that doesn't mean that Rip's family will actually die at Savage's hand.  Time travel changes that.  

Think of Savage 2021's life as an 'alternate timeline' if you want, one with proceeded along it's merry way only because Savage hadn't gone back and tampered with it.  But he did and now that alternate timeline will never happen because it can't.  If I'm right that Savage 1958 is dead dead, then Savage 1958 met the true death in 1958.  This is made more confusing by the 'simultaneous' nonsense from before - if Savage 1958 is dead, so is Savage 1975.  They didn't try to cook off their bombs 'simultaneously' in any sense of the word (except maybe in the odd narrative style of this show), they tried to do it 17 years apart.  If Savage 1958 got ganked by Rory, there is no Savage 1975.   He died in 1958 too cuz they're the same guy. 

Savage 2021 now, he's still alive because he's back from the future, and his existence no longer depends on Savage 1958 living to see 1959.  His version of 1958 on his timeline obviously survived, so he's still around.  But it turns out he too met the true death in 2021, so he's toast too.

Here's why Rip's family is still alive even though Savage 2021 remembers killing them: they're still alive in 2021, have yet to be born.  And no version of Vandal Savage still exists.  Killing Savage 1958 should have taken care of Savage 1975 anyway, but even if it didn't, he died again in 1975.  No matter what Savage 2021 remembers about his later life, it hasn't happened yet, and now it never will because the last surviving version of him died at Rip's hand (among others) in 2021.  The writers may want us to think otherwise, but there's no way Rip's family is killed in the way Rip remembers.  This even makes sense to folks in this universe because it was was Rip's plan all along.  It was just that the dumb writers who want to have their cake and eat it too, but that doesn't mean it makes sense.

Not for nothing, but the writers could have kept Rip around for season two and done something really poignant, if they'd though it through.  Because Savage died in the past, Rip's family never died and Rip himself never went on a vengeance quest.  Were our Rip to try and go home, he'd find a different, happier version of himself already there, still with his family, having never left and now never will.  Shit, I think our Rip is useless, but even I might have choked up to see him go back to future and spy from afar on his living wife and child, alive with a better version of himself, and forever unable to explain to them what he did to make this happen.  Rip killed many, changed time, wiped out the Time Masters, and it all means he can never go home.  That would have been fucking devastating.  

Edited May 21, 2016 by henripootel

[Starfish35]

These writers aren't particularly good with time travel.  I don't know if you've been following The Flash, but it's even worse over there.

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Not for nothing, but the writers could have kept Rip around for season two and done something really poignant, if they'd though it through.  Because Savage died in the past, Rip's family never died and Rip himself never went on a vengeance quest.  Were our Rip to try and go home, he'd find a different, happier version of himself already there, still with his family, having never left and now never will.  Shit, I think our Rip is useless, but even I might have choked up to see him go back to future and spy from afar on his living wife and child, alive with a better version of himself, and forever unable to explain to them what he did to make this happen.  Rip killed many, changed time, wiped out the Time Masters, and it all means he can never go home.  That would have been fucking devastating.  

That would have been a really interesting way to go.  

[tessaray]

19 minutes ago, henripootel said:

...

Shit, I think our Rip is useless, but even I might have choked up to see him go back to future and spy from afar on his living wife and child, alive with a better version of himself, and forever unable to explain to them what he did to make this happen.  Rip killed many, changed time, wiped out the Time Masters, and it all means he can never go home.  That would have been fucking devastating.  

Kind of like Continuum... which is still one of my favorite time travel shows. (I miss it.)

I have to say that "wibbly, wobbly, timey, wimey" aside, I loved this episode.  One of my favorite time travel episodes (of any show) was ST:TNG's "Yesterday's Enterprise" - and more specifically Tasha Yar's dismay that she had died a senseless death in the original timeline, so I can project that onto the idea that Sara would have died a senseless death if Rip had not plucked her out of the timeline to go on his quest.  While I am very glad he did, I do wish the writers would have conveyed that better because a lot of viewers might not get the "between the lines" that would lend the extra depth to the scene. 

As for Laurel, since she was already on The Flash as the Black Siren, I'm sure that if the EPs want KC for a scene/show/storyline (as Laurel - or anyone), it shouldn't be an issue.  Arrow is better for slimming down their cast and I'm sure that LoT will be better for offloading the Hawks.  They can always come back in some fashion.  (Not that I care, not a comics person...)  

Also - I love Mick. Really. Who would have thought? 

[jhlipton]

23 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:

 I would think this show was written for children if it didn't require you to keep up with Arrow in order to follow what was going on.

I don't keep up with any of the other shows in the "flarrowverse" and I can keep up pretty well.  Posts here fill in details, like who Laurel was and how/why she died but that's minimal.

12 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Sara's, Gandalf, I'll take it. 

I do want the new character to be Lady Blackhawk, another kick ass woman that doesn't need CGI. I'm wondering if Vixen is going to be showing up since the actress was at the Upfronts when her show has nothing do with them. Having Vixen and Lady Blackhawk will make it two women of color and even out the team a bit. 

Most of the illustrations on the Google Image search for Lady Blackhawk look pretty white to me.  I hope they're not going to pull a bait-and-switch of bringing in a Woman of [Light] Color" and claiming diversity.  I notice that Megalyn Echikunwoke is mixed, so that would be Wo[L]C 2, black women 0.  If they pull that kind of nonsense, I'm done.

[kismet]

Completely unrelated to the conversation, but I was watching CW online and they had a LoT commercial, which reminded me to mention that I really enjoyed VS costume with Red under the jacket. It made for a nice visual during the fights - especially during SLs fight. Kudos to the costume dept.

[Kromm]

Hourman, eh?

Sufficiently obscure to the general public that I'm sure his Wikipedia page is getting a real workout today.

[squidprincess]

7 hours ago, henripootel said:

Here's why Rip's family is still alive even though Savage 2021 remembers killing them: they're still alive in 2021, have yet to be born.  And no version of Vandal Savage still exists.  Killing Savage 1958 should have taken care of Savage 1975 anyway, but even if it didn't, he died again in 1975.  No matter what Savage 2021 remembers about his later life, it hasn't happened yet, and now it never will because the last surviving version of him died at Rip's hand (among others) in 2021.  The writers may want us to think otherwise, but there's no way Rip's family is killed in the way Rip remembers.  This even makes sense to folks in this universe because it was was Rip's plan all along.  It was just that the dumb writers who want to have their cake and eat it too, but that doesn't mean it makes sense.

Not for nothing, but the writers could have kept Rip around for season two and done something really poignant, if they'd though it through.  Because Savage died in the past, Rip's family never died and Rip himself never went on a vengeance quest.  Were our Rip to try and go home, he'd find a different, happier version of himself already there, still with his family, having never left and now never will.  Shit, I think our Rip is useless, but even I might have choked up to see him go back to future and spy from afar on his living wife and child, alive with a better version of himself, and forever unable to explain to them what he did to make this happen.  Rip killed many, changed time, wiped out the Time Masters, and it all means he can never go home.  That would have been fucking devastating.  

Your idea is interesting, but it's not actually what happened on the show.

First, and key, the Savage in 2021 wasn't 2021 Savage.  We know this because he still had Kendra.  This makes him the Savage from 2166.  (The one captured in episode 14, taken to Vanishing Point, released in episode 15, captured Kendra and Carter/murdered Rip's family again in episode 15, and then goes to 1940s) .  We don't actually know if he remembers having done what the 1958/1975 Savages have done, but it's a situation very similar to when Martin of 1975 saw the Waverider.  Our Martin doesn't remember doing that, but it happened, and nearly ruined his marriage.  So Savage 2166 is not operating under an alternate timeline, he's operating under a condensed timeline where everything still happened.  Including his rise to power in the 22nd century.

Actual Savage who was alive in 2021 is presumably somewhere else and fine.  Nothing he will do between 2021 and 2166 has been negated, sadly.  (But at least he won't be plaguing the world AFTER 2166.)

The way I interpreted the "meteors make him mortal" line is that they did...for as long as the meteors lasted.  Once each meteor was destroyed, Savage reverted back to immortality.  So each version "died", but only the last one stuck.  (Otherwise, really, they'd only have had to have Rory make the killing blow in 1958.  Sara's fight scene was completely unnecessary.)  They needed to do it all three times to make it actually work.  This is backed up by the events: no alternate timelines/futures were created.  There was also no paradox created by killing Savage three times.

It might be bad writing (though honestly, it seems fine to me, or at least no sillier than any other time hijinx in this show), but the show has made clear through the experienced time travelers' reactions, as well as that vision at the end, that Miranda and Jonas are and remain dead.  There's enough wiggle room that the writers could probably change that later on, if they want.  But at least for now, they are dead.

Edited May 21, 2016 by squidprincess

[grannygeek]

"Oh no, the Hawkpeople are leaving the show..."

-No one, ever.

Agreed!
Also agree that "Carter was a creepy, controlling asshole." with a bit of evidence of Neanderthal genes floating around there - didn't find him handsome at all.

[squidprincess]

I have to admit, I found Carter a lot more likable in this episode than I ever did before.  Apparently partial amnesia and brainwashing does a man good, because he seemed a lot less controlling and domineering this time around.

Edited May 21, 2016 by squidprincess

[Sakura12]

Did he speak that much? I don't remember him having that many lines?

[henripootel]

4 hours ago, squidprincess said:

Your idea is interesting, but it's not actually what happened on the show.

First, and key, the Savage in 2021 wasn't 2021 Savage.  We know this because he still had Kendra.  This makes him the Savage from 2166.

I should have been clearer - Savage 2021 is *the* Savage as far as we're concerned.  He's Savage 2166, Time-Travelling Savage, Original Extra-Crispy Savage.  There was an alternative Savage (presumably) in 2021 but we didn't see him this time.

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We don't actually know if he remembers having done what the 1958/1975 Savages have done,

We do.  If Original Savage had participated in the meteor thing in 1958, time would have ended (or been reset, or whatever) because there was nobody there to oppose the plan.  Alternatively, Original Savage would have acted differently if he remembered being part of the plan in 1958 because he'd know already that the plan didn't work since he was there in his timeline.  One presumes that he'd have told his earlier self (Savage 1958) 'Take this blood, dump it on the rock and oh, the idiot crew is gonna show up.  Hire some proper goons to hold them up for a couple of minutes.'

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Actual Savage who was alive in 2021 is presumably somewhere else and fine.  Nothing he will do between 2021 and 2166 has been negated, sadly.

Not if he was killed by Rory in 1958, and again in 1975.  Really Dead is really dead, no take-backs.  Which assumes that he is truly dead but ...

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The way I interpreted the "meteors make him mortal" line is that they did...for as long as the meteors lasted.  Once each meteor was destroyed, Savage reverted back to immortality.  So each version "died", but only the last one stuck.  (Otherwise, really, they'd only have had to have Rory make the killing blow in 1958.  Sara's fight scene was completely unnecessary.)

Ray seemed pretty clear that it was the burst of radiation (after activation with the blood but before the big kablooey) which made Savage mortal, which is why he told Rory to wait.  If you're right, then destroying the meteor ... un-radiated Savage?  How is that possible?  

I'd argue that Sara's fight scene was in fact completely unnecessary, and a stupid oversight by the writers just to shoehorn in a Sara fight scene.  It was dumb but recall that they 'explained' the necessity by having Rip say that Savage had to be killed 'simultaneously' in each period.  Fuck is that supposed to mean?  Really dead in 1958 means still really dead in 1975 and 2021.  I could try to wank this away by saying that maybe they had to kill Savage every time to prevent the meteor actually cooking off so they did them in reverse order, 2021, 1975, then 1958.  But if so, why divide the team?  

I think this is sheer nonsense but the facts as we see them still say to me that there is no way Rip's family is dead.  Heck, how does Rip even know for sure himself at 'this' point?  I know he had the silly scene on the Waverider where he 'saw' them one last time but what the fuck was that anyway?  I know the writers had the characters say that Rip's family is dead dead dead and that, for the purposes of season 2, they are, but that's my point - it makes no farking sense.  They also want you to believe the hawk pair are compelling (they're not), that Martin would go back to 2016 with future knowledge and sit around drinking tea instead of publishing the shit out of it (and collecting a pile of Nobel Prizes), and that Snart's sacrifice was absolutely necessary to save them all (it totally wasn't).  Just cuz the writers say something clearly doesn't mean we don't get to call bullshit.

Not for nothing but 'NEVER SPEAK THEIR NAMES AGAIN!' is a weird thing to say to a guy you just killed.  He might as well have said 'NEVER GO TO ARBY'S AGAIN' or any of the many things dead people will never do, being dead.  Bad, bad writing.

Edited May 21, 2016 by henripootel

[nksarmi]

I think it should be said that Kendra probably did hit Savage with the special knife (he was probably keeping it aboard the time travel ship - I think he likes to use it to kill Kendra and Carter with whenever he can) and Savage was dying but Rip speed it up a bit.

[squidprincess]

Also, there was the point that all three deaths were "necessary" in a sense for Savage to be dead for good.  It stands to reason that the first two deaths were not permanent, because the third death hadn't happened yet.  Basically, 1958 Savage was only killed once.  1975 Savage would have been killed twice.  Only the Savage we saw in 2021 (the one who'd traveled from 2166, and had killed Miranda and Jonas before he left), had been killed the necessary three times.  So it would only be permanent for him. 

It honestly seems fairly straightforward to me.  Given the situation as presented, the family is dead.  That's something that the writers probably could change in a later season, if they want to, but I personally doubt they will, because generally tv shows like this like their attractive young leads single.

That's why the scene in the sun was necessary to the story.  It wasn't a heroic sacrifice per se, because Rip could have dropped the meteor and left.  But Rip had to decide whether or not he would join his family in death or live without them.

Edited May 21, 2016 by squidprincess
I'm finicky about my word choices, sorry.

[henripootel]

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Only the Savage we saw in 2021 (the one who'd traveled from 2166, and had killed Miranda and Jonas before he left), had been killed the necessary three times.

Well, I'm gonna stop belaboring this point, but I will say that there's no indication that Savage 2166 (who died in 2021) ever died in 1958 or 1975.  Nor did he have to - he went back to change what happened to himself, and did, so if he was merely repeating what happened to him, it wouldn't change anything.  Whatever happened 'the first time through' would simply happen again (i.e. the world didn't reset), but this was precisely what Savage went back to change.

Also, if you're right, then at the least, Savage 1958 and Savage 1975 are the same guy, right?  He only sorta died in 1958, then again in 1975, right.  Question: why did he bother trying the plan 'again' in 1975?  Surely he'd think "Hey, I remember the last time I tried this back in '58, and I got 'killed' and when I resurrected, the rock hadn't gone kablooey.  For the plan to work, the rock has to go kablooey in all three times, and it didn't.  Time for a new plan."  This is triply true for Savage 2166 - if he tried the blood on the rock thing during his first pass through 1958 and 1975, he knows for damn sure the plan didn't work, and now can't.  It was totally foiled 46 and 63 years ago, and it seems unlikely he just forgot.  If he knows this, why keep trying?  

Also, did they ever say anything about needing to kill Savage 3 times?  I thought it was 'in each time period'.  That makes no sense either but it's not like Rip said 'First two are just warm-up, third time's the charm'.

And if they just wanted Savage resurrection-dead (not dead dead) in 1958, why did Ray tell Mick they had to wait for the blood got on the rock to kill Savage?  If they just wanted resurrection-dead, they didn't have to wait at all, and would be well advised not to, as they now had a ticking bomb on their hands. 

Edited May 21, 2016 by henripootel

[Chyromaniac]

I enjoyed this episode, but I think it highlighted a serious flaw in the plotting out of the season.  So far, we've pretty much just had the Legends popping into random points along Savage's timeline, failing to kill him, then zipping off somewhere else to try (and fail) again.  Savage himself has been mostly a static element in the story - he basically does what he would've done regardless of the interference.  I feel like this week worked better because they finally gave Savage an actual plot to carry out.  Casper Crump was a guest at our local Wizard World show last weekend, and he seemed like a cool, albeit intense, guy, and a better performer than what the show has given him to do - it would've been nice for the show to give him something to do for 15 episodes, beside twirling his moustache.

Perhaps it would've been better to get him jumping through time much earlier.  I think I would've liked to see maybe half a season of Rip and Company tracking Savage through time, Carmen Sandiego-style.  Besides giving Savage a more active role in the narrative, it would also give the crew more chances for small victories, without defeating him completely.

[squidprincess]

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Also, did they ever say anything about needing to kill Savage 3 times?  I thought it was 'in each time period'.  That makes no sense either but it's not like Rip said 'First two are just warm-up, third time's the charm'.

"In each time period" is the key.  He had to be killed in each time period.  It isn't that the first two don't count, it's that they all need to happen.  In 1958, only one of the time period happened, so only one of the required deaths happened yet. 

2021 is the only time period where Savage had been killed each time, because it was last death chronologically.

Leaving that aside, was I the only one who really wished Clarissa joined the team?  I feel like she would bring a welcome dose of common sense to the team.

Edited May 21, 2016 by squidprincess

[scarynikki12]

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was I the only one who really wished Clarissa joined the team?  I feel like she would bring a welcome dose of common sense to the team.

She's also clearly BFF with Jax so that could result in lots of entertainment.

[johntfs]

On 5/20/2016 at 3:18 PM, squidprincess said:

Thing is, Rip didn't succeed in saving his family.  He tried repeatedly from the sound of it.  Only for the same thing to happen.  So it isn't so much that Rip is hypocritically denying Sara, as it is him speaking as the voice of experience.  (And more accurately the showrunners).  If she tries, she would presumably fail. Given how Laurel was killed, I'm inclined to agree.

It was pretty strongly implied that if he hadn't recruited Sara, she would have died in the same set up...which would explain her lack of "effect" on history.  Might be that a similar thing was true for the other characters.  Hence he returned them five months later instead of five minutes.

The problem for me about saving Rip's family is that there's no reason they can't be saved now.  Rip kept trying to save them and failed, but now pretty much know why he failed - the Time Masters were using the Oculus to thwart him so he'd start his Kill VS mission which they would use to strengthen and cement Savage's rule so he'd be in place to stop the Thanagarians from destroying humanity.  With the Oculus (and Savage) gone, there's no reason he can't potentially save his family except the writers want him free to hook up with some new person.  Maybe Jonah Hex.  Maybe somebody played by Karen Gillan.

[AudienceofOne]

I agree and made this point after previous episodes. Just because they managed to kill Savage X doesn't mean they can't go back and kill Savage T. Hawkgirl and Hawkman are presumably not "free" to pursue their lives in this timeline because a version of Savage is still there. And if a version of Savage isn't still there - then why would Rip's family be dead?

Wasn't the point to kill Savage, stop the rise of the oppressive society of the future and save Rip's family? They've only achieved one of those things. Not that I'm complaining about a lack of these characters going forward because they sucked the life out of this show. I may even watch the next season. Possibly. If I'm bored. Or need something to help me get to sleep. Or want to see a half-decent Canary.

[Sakura12]

I think what's being forgotten is, Savage can be killed he just doesn't stay dead unless he's killed by one of Hawks with a special weapon. The team has killed him before. 

Mick and Sara's killing of Savage was necessary because their job was to stop him from activating the Thanagarian meteorite in 1958 and 1975. They needed to kill him order to stop the meteorite from exploding. The 2166 Savage already killed Rip's family in 2166 and went back in time to 2021 to activate the third meteorite. They only made him mortal, they didn't change time or erase him from time. Killing him doesn't change his timeline. Other Savages still out there, ones without time travel technology. And because they killed the 1958 and 1975 Savage he won't remember Team Legends or their powers. And presumably they are all mortal now and can die. What they did, didn't change what Savage has done throughout history, mostly they just stopped his reign of terror for the people in 2166.

I don't expect shows to follow the real Time Travel rules. TV shows are fake so I expect fake science and fake rules to make things more interesting. Most shows rarely follow what actual people would do in situations. I want to be entertained not watch what really happens. This show is obviously not for everyone. If you want realism they have real science channels for that. This show is not perfect, but it has entertained me which is all I was looking for from it. This show is the only show I made a point to watch live every week this tv season. 

Edited May 22, 2016 by Sakura12

[ottoDbusdriver]

13 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't expect shows to follow the real Time Travel rules. TV shows are fake so I expect fake science and fake rules to make things more interesting. Most shows rarely follow what actual people would do in situations. I want to be entertained not watch what really happens. This show is obviously not for everyone. If you want realism they have real science channels for that. This show is not perfect, but it has entertained me which is all I was looking for from it. This show is the only show I made a point to watch live every week this tv season. 

But I do expect shows to follow the time travel rules that are established within the context of their own show.

[squidprincess]

1 minute ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

But I do expect shows to follow the time travel rules that are established within the context of their own show.

Well, it is based on a comic universe that is, if possible, even less consistent about following its own time travel rules.  :-)

But one rule that seems to be established is that, no matter how much you try, you can't save the people closest to you from deaths that have already happened.  Rip drove himself nearly insane trying to save Miranda and Jonas.  Sara trying to save Laurel would lead to her and her father's death.  Jax presumably wasn't able to save his father either.

I do think there are enough loopholes that the writers later could decide to have any of these characters come back to life, but it seems like the theme right now involves accepting that there are some things that can't be changed and moving on from that.

[Sakura12]

I'm going with some people are meant to die and no matter what you do that outcome can never change. Rip's family, Laurel and I'm assuming Jax's dad. 

I suppose that meant that Sara wasn't meant to die, which why her death could be reversed in the LP and prevented by Rip. 

ETA: It's like those final destination movies, where death will come for people meant to die no matter what. They could prevent how they died the first time but they'll die another time, another way. That's what happened to Rip's family. 

Edited May 22, 2016 by Sakura12

[henripootel]

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But one rule that seems to be established is that, no matter how much you try, you can't save the people closest to you from deaths that have already happened.

I'd be cool with that were it not for the fact that this is the very premise of the show.  And the person driving this isn't just any unschooled hopeful idiot but a Time Master, trained in the ways of time and space.  This suggests to me that this is in no way a rule of this universe, just a 'Lucy pulls the ball out at the last second' cheap writer's trick, which makes no sense but hey, whatever the writers write is 'what happened', right?  Fuck sense.

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I think what's being forgotten is, Savage can be killed he just doesn't stay dead unless he's killed by one of Hawks with a special weapon.

I don't think anybody forgot that.  We certainly didn't - I think the writers just retconned it.  They just stuck in an alternate way Savage 'becomes mortal', and mortal guys don't need no special knife.  Not faulty memory, just shifting premises, which, if you ask me, is just a way for the writers to show contempt for their audience.  You guys actually paid attention?  What idiots!

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It's like those final destination movies, where death will come for people meant to die no matter what. They could prevent how they died the first time but they'll die another time, another way. That's what happened to Rip's family. 

See, I'd be happy with that too - might be an interesting way to spin out Rip's desperate efforts that he, as a Time Master, must know are futile.  That'd be a bit heart-wrenching, way better than the confusing mess of 'Rip couldn't save his family because Savage and the Time Masters were against him but now that they're gone ... he still can't.  Just trust us on this.' 

Edited May 22, 2016 by henripootel

[tarotx]

It was always the Meteorite/Thanagarian "magic" that was needed to kill Savage. The Hawks needed to be the ones that killed him and they needed to be using something from the night they were originally killed. So double the Thanagarian to kill Savage.  In this finale, Savage was doing a ritual that was releasing that radiation 3 times. Yes it's new info but not something that totally changes everything that we were told before. 

Yes the 3 times was probably a bit much but they wanted a cool fight over 3 time locations. This looked cool and wasn't going to break the bank.

Rip's a time master. He was raise believing in rules. He has watched his family die and die again many times. Watch how Rip holds himself when watching the holograms of his family and when he's talking to Sara about Laurel. He's resigned to the "truth" that time wants to happen. Maybe it doesn't but Rip believes it. 

Edited May 22, 2016 by tarotx

[squidprincess]

15 minutes ago, henripootel said:

I'd be cool with that were it not for the fact that this is the very premise of the show.  And the person driving this isn't just any unschooled hopeful idiot but a Time Master, trained in the ways of time and space.  This suggests to me that this is in no way a rule of this universe, just a 'Lucy pulls the ball out at the last second' cheap writer's trick, which makes no sense but hey, whatever the writers write is 'what happened', right?  Fuck sense.

It isn't the premise of the show.  The premise of the show was to kill Vandal Savage.  They did that.

And if you pay attention to Rip's dialogue in the earlier episodes, he very rarely talked about "saving" his family.  He generally talked about avenging them and saving the world.  When he'd talk about Savage, it'd be things like Savage having been the last face his son saw when he died, so he intended to be the last face that Savage saw.  When Eve Baxter challenged him about his betrayal of the Time Masters, he didn't say "I did it to save my family."  He says that its his betrayal of/failure to save his family that actually matters.  It wasn't until episode 14/15 where the chance to actually kill Savage was real and right there, that Rip started really embracing the idea of saving rather than avenging his family.  And Episode 15 also took that away again, with Druce's revelation and by showing us Savage killing the family (with Kendra restrained in his time ship) one last time.  

Honestly, it isn't a matter of "just trust us."  They gave us a perfectly good explanation for why Miranda and Jonas are still dead.  It's not an explanation that works for everyone, obviously, but it is an explanation.  It's a bittersweet end to Rip's character arc, sure.  But that's why the sun scene was so important.  It put Rip on the path to move forward and possibly heal.

[henripootel]

Quote

Rip's a time master. He was raise believing in rules. He has watched his family die and die again many times. Watch how Rip holds himself when watching the holograms of his family and when he's talking to Sara about Laurel. He's resigned to the "truth" that time wants to happen. Maybe it doesn't but Rip believes it. 

The entire existence of the plotline (Rip stealing a ship, assembling the crew of idiots, killing the time masters, ..) say Rip doesn't believe it. And this was long before he found out that the Time Masters are big fat liars.  Given abundant evidence that he was right all along, Rip ... suddenly believes his family is beyond saving?  

Edited May 22, 2016 by henripootel

[squidprincess]

16 minutes ago, henripootel said:

The entire existence of the plotline (Rip stealing a ship, assembling the crew of idiots, killing the time masters, ..) say Rip doesn't believe it. 

Rip stole the ship and assembled the crew to stop Vandal Savage/save the world.  He destroyed the oculus (giving up his chance to stop the just released Savage from killing his family in the process) to free time from the Time Master's control.

If he was able to kill Vandal in a way that prevented Vandal from killing his family, of course he wanted to do that.  But it was also pretty clear early on that Rip wasn't going to be able to succeed in that.  And Rip's own behavior and dialogue for most of the season indicated that he was, on some level, aware of that.  

Rip was hoping for a different outcome, as any human being would, but he didn't get it.  The end of the finale was Rip coming to terms with that and saying goodbye to them, and finally moving forward with the life that he can have now.

Edited May 22, 2016 by squidprincess
removing a tangent sorry

[henripootel]

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If he was able to kill Vandal in a way that prevented Vandal from killing his family, of course he wanted to do that.

Pretty sure Rip's been pretty clear all along he was in this to save his own family - isn't this in the opening dialogue?  Heck, even his own team called him out on this, being willing to sacrifice other people's families to save his own.  I think helping the rest of the world was pretty much incidental.

Quote

Rip was hoping for a different outcome, as any human being would, but he didn't get it.  The end of the finale was Rip coming to terms with that and saying goodbye to them, and finally moving forward with the life that he can have now.

So you're saying Rip knew he couldn't save his family (but tried anyway) but also didn't know that that he couldn't save his family and is just now 'realizing it'.  How are these not mutually exclusive?

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He destroyed the oculus (giving up his chance to stop the just released Savage from killing his family in the process) to free time from the Time Master's control.

How?  The Oculus was the device that enabled the Time Masters to fuck with Rip all along.  Rip destroyed it.  No more worries about the 'time lines'.  Heck, Sara even quipped about this right before she killed Savage.  

If your objection is that Rip had to choose between leaving right now and stopping time-traveling Savage from killing his family or destroying the Oculus, I'd counter with 'time travel'.  After destroying the Oculus, Rip could take a two-week vacation in pre-contact Hawaii (my time destination of choice) and still show up in time to whisk his family to safety.  No more Oculus so no more interference.  A Time Master is never 'late'.  

Edited May 22, 2016 by henripootel
spelling

[squidprincess]

41 minutes ago, henripootel said:

Pretty sure Rip's been pretty clear all along he was in this to save his own family - isn't this in the opening dialogue?  Heck, even his own team called him out on this, being willing to sacrifice other people's families to save his own.  I think helping the rest of the world was pretty much incidental.

So you're saying Rip knew he couldn't save his family (but tried anyway) but also didn't know that that he couldn't save his family and is just now 'realizing it'.  How are these not mutually exclusive?

The opening monologue also has Rip call them his "friends", which is something that I think most viewers would agree isn't precisely true.  But okay, I agree that it's in the monologue.  So it's part of the premise.  But sometimes the characters don't end up succeeding entirely.  And that's what happened here.

I pointed out before that if you pay attention to Rip's dialogue throughout the show, you can see a clear shift from when Rip talks about avenging vs saving his family.  It's actually really interesting to rewatch and track, because it provides an interesting context for understanding Rip's character arc.  

And it's not "mutually exclusive" because people are people.  Someone can really want something and know in their heart that it's impossible.  Someone can truly believe something one moment and utterly give up in another.  There are times where Rip appears to truly believe his family can be saved: see trying to kill Savage in Egypt, trying repeatedly to rescue Miranda and Jonas when the series started, the end of episode 13 when Kendra has Savage helpless, or most of episode 14 when it looks like he can convince the Time Masters to finally get in there and stop Savage.  However, each of these points of hope are pretty quickly and brutally crushed.  (Episode 15 is dark, not just because of Snart's death, but because it puts the final nail in the coffin in the idea of saving Miranda and Jonas.)   There are many other times when it is fairly obvious that Rip is focused on the idea of killing Savage, without the hope of changing what he's already lost to him.  And that's a good part of the season, though Marooned is the most explicit example of this, seeing as it starts with a full blown depressive episode, and then follows that up with his dialogue about betrayal and failure with Eve Baxter, and the self-sabotage through mishandling Mick Rory.

Honestly, I like that they didn't save Miranda and Jonas, because that would have been an easy ending to Rip's character arc.  It would have been very easy to just have them go back to basically any point in history and decide "okay, this is it, this is the point of showdown" and been done with it.  It's not like Rip would have necessarily even had to stop traveling with the group afterward.  He'd been a Time Master before, and Martin had Clarissa.  Instead, they went a bittersweet route, gave the team the victory, left the loved ones dead, and had Rip's final arc choice be between death (his family) and life (moving on).  And I found it very satisfying, though obviously your mileage does vary.  :-) 

(ETA: Sakura12: Fair point, I apologize.  I get carried away sometimes.)

Edited May 22, 2016 by squidprincess
to apologize

[henripootel]

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Honestly, I like that they didn't save Miranda and Jonas, because that would have been an easy ending to Rip's character arc.

It would have been a bit cheesy, or could easily have been.  But I agree, it need not be so - why not make Rip a time-traveling husband?  He could be home at 5 every day, and take his family on the occasional holiday to 15th century France. I think they're gonna try to add a bit of heft to Rip by making him burdened by his history, and that sounds okay.  That said, if his family really is dead for all eternity, they'd better just turn the corner on this and move on.  Not another season of try-fail-try-fail ad nauseam.  

[nksarmi]

I always expected Rip to fail in saving his family this season - but I'm not 100% sure that the future Rip came from is the future the show will end with. I mean that is a pretty bleak future even if Savage is finally defeated.

While Rip said goodbye to the family he knew - I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that the future can still change. If the show goes a few seasons, he could still see his former wife in a totally different life. I actually think the show did a fairly decent job of remembering past plots (like returning their younger selves to the timeline) and tying thing back to past episodes. I really enjoyed the finale. I haven't watched it again yet but I fully intend to soon. :)

[CabotCove]

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Hourman, eh?

Sufficiently obscure to the general public that I'm sure his Wikipedia page is getting a real workout today.

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I have to admit, I found Carter a lot more likable in this episode than I ever did before.  Apparently partial amnesia and brainwashing does a man good, because he seemed a lot less controlling and domineering this time around.

Thats because he was not even Carter, he should have his own name, he is a reincarnated future version of Carter isnt he, likely there many were others before nuHawmkan and after real Carter's death. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by WildcardC

[squidprincess]

3 hours ago, WildcardC said:

Thats because he was not even Carter, he should have his own name, he is a reincarnated future version of Carter isnt he, likely there many were others before nuHawmkan and after real Carter's death. 

According to the Arrow wiki, his name is "Scythian Torvill."  I'm not sure if Scythian is a first name or descriptor, though.  He doesn't seem to mind being called Carter though.

[Sakura12]

It is weird that they are always calling each other Kendra and Carter. He called her Kendra in one of the flashbacks when their names should've been different. If they needed to use the same name wouldn't they go with their original names of Shayera and Khufu? 

[squidprincess]

I thought that they had used Chay-ara and Khufu in the flashbacks.  But I'll be honest, as much as I do like Kendra, my attention tended to wander during those scenes.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Legends Of Tomorrow Learn Savage's Ultimate Plan

Can they stop him before it's too late?

[romantic idiot]

6 hours ago, squidprincess said:

I thought that they had used Chay-ara and Khufu in the flashbacks.  But I'll be honest, as much as I do like Kendra, my attention tended to wander during those scenes.

Yeah I found them soporific myself.

[Potanical Pardon]

Justice Society of America = a kajillion billion times cooler and more interesting than the Justice League has ever been or will ever be.

Oh good. No more Hawks, though you can't do anything Thanagar without shoehorning them back in one day. Sigh.

Fun fact: Rex Tyler's son Rick marries Jessie Quick. No clue when this Rex comes from, so it could still happen. Also this Rex seems to have his android-clone-son-kinda-sorta-something, Matthew Tyler, time-travel Hourman schtick. I hope we get to see the pirate-boat timeship he has.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Potanical Pardon

[MarkHB]

He might have the "see an hour into the future" hourglass, but I don't think he's much of a time traveler given his piloting of the Waverider and his "is this May 2016?" lines.

[Sakura12]

I think it would be interesting if Team Legends are behind the scenes contributors, they are not well known to the public, they are only legends to the other heroes they've helped throughout time. 

[foreverevolving]

On 5/20/2016 at 11:34 AM, Cekrypton1 said:

if you had told me two years ago that Mick--grunty, brutal Mick--would end up being my favorite character, I would have laughed. But his character works with EVERYONE. Well done, team Legends, It's about the only thing you've done right.

I know right?! Took me by surprise too, but I have found myself more and more interested in Mick than Snart after they revealed he was Cronos (sp?).

I am sad that my ColdAtom ship will never happen, but I am willing to settle for Sara and Rip, if before the finale there were tiny hints that they may go that way I think the finale turned that dial wayyy up and in their direction- especially with Rip's family being truly dead. Rip seems to 100% trust and rely on Sara's in way I think were similar to how he trusted and relied on Miranda.

[Starfish35]

And we’re done....finally.  Savage is well and truly dead, the Hawks fly away off the show (“Everytime they do that, I get hungry for chicken” 😂🤣😂), and Rex Tyler arrives to usher in Season Two. 

Sara finally finds out about Laurel being killed...as much as I love Sara, it’s still hard for me to care about this arc because I couldn’t care less about Laurel.  

Rip has a very moving goodbye/sacrifice scene which....turns out not to be one after all.  In retrospect, I’m conflicted about this, knowing that his role was so much reduced in the following seasons anyway.  It would have been a fitting farewell for him if it hadn’t also meant the destruction of the Waverider.  

The start-up of the sadly too-short lived Mick/Ray bromance.  I always enjoyed their scenes.

And....on to season two.

I think, overall, this isn’t as bad of a season as I’d remembered, but it’s continually prevented from being truly good by the huge misfire that was the whole Savage/Hawks storyline, and two of the worst Arrowverse casting choices ever in Casper Crump and Falk Henschel.  Worst episodes of the season, for me, were Night of the Hawk, Progeny, Leviathan, and River of Time.  But there’s also a lot of good episodes, and a lot of great character moments that I’d forgotten.  

Edited November 18, 2019 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

Bye Savage, Bye Savage and Bye Savage. With an added bye to the Hawks. 

I'm the same with Sara mourning Laurel. If I cared about Laurel at all I might've cared more about how her death is hurting Sara. But I barely felt like Sara and Laurel even liked each other. 

This season was a mess but had it's moments. If they cast better actors for Savage and the Hawks it may or may not have made a difference. I think it was more the story that didn't work. They should've kept Savage a caveman and the Hawks their own characters. 

On to Season 2, lets see if it holds up to being my favorite season.