S02.E10: The Loophole

[OnceSane]

Grace and Phil get closer, but complications arise.  Sol and Robert square off on opposite sides of the conflict between Frankie and Brianna.

[greekmom]

I love Sam Elliot and wished that Phil's wife passed so that Phil can be with Grace.  The lovemaking scene was very well done (better than last season's with Guy) and it proves that yes! people in their 70's still want to rock the sheets. I really felt bad for Grace at the end.

[AuntieMame]

I felt so badly for everyone in this storyline. It really brought home the message of missed chances and opportunities so strongly. Grace should have leapt fifteen years ago and kings instead stayed in a marriage emptier than she knew. Now, there is no honor or real chance at life with the man she did love. So sad. 

[OnceSane]

Yeah, this was a sad episode.  Grace just wants love with a great man, but it's part of what makes him great that makes it impossible for her to be with him.

And Brianna vs. Frankie got mean, quick.  I liked Bud, Frankie and Brianna leaving while Sol and Robert obviously fought about not lube.  But I also appreciated Brianna saying this kind of thing would lead them to not being friends anymore.  Part of me feels like she said it because she knew she'd win if she took that tactic; but more of me thinks she was just stating the truth.  The yam lube case would have torn everything apart even more than it already was.

[Drapers4thWife]

I enjoyed the dog-walking priest character until the moment he said Sol wasn't crazy for barging in, "He's just in love. And tortured." I actually liked Sol and Robert better at the start of this season than s1, but it was ruined somewhat by every character trying to make up for the lack of chemistry between Waterston and Sheen by pronouncing Sol and Robert the love story to end all love stories, with a love so big and pure that everyone from family members to strangers are bowled over by it. I just do not see it, and as soon as Sol and Robert got interesting with the separation storyline it was done. Not only did Robert and the ex-priest have tons more chemistry, but I thought it was interesting during the break-up to see how some of their more negative traits rear their heads in their current relationship. I think both Sol and Robert convinced themselves that they're good guys and it was only their marriages to Grace and Frankie that were wrong, but during the break-up it showed Sol's obsessiveness and Robert's holier than thou stubbornness. 

I guess I'm just sick of Robert and Sol being in a perpetual honeymoon period, even after reconciling after the separation. I would like to see the show explore more what happens when a clandestine affair becomes a marriage - oftentimes, couples falter when the secretiveness and passion of an affair falls away. It's not as thrilling. Also, the ex-priest was a fantastic chance for Robert to connect with someone he has more in common with. I really thought he was going to be more long term as a character, and cause Robert to have second thoughts about being with Sol. It's already been established that after his heart attack, Robert wants to live more of an open lifestyle and explore the gay community he never got to experience, while Sol is more hesitant. Then there are the personal, cultural and religious differences between the two. There's just so much to explore and I think the show was almost there, but backtracked. 

[zxy556575]

8 minutes ago, Drapers4thWife said:

I think both Sol and Robert convinced themselves that they're good guys and it was only their marriages to Grace and Frankie that were wrong, but during the break-up it showed Sol's obsessiveness and Robert's holier than thou stubbornness. 

I'd be pleased if next season reduced Sol and Robert to occasional appearances and focused more on the kids. I don't know if the actress playing Mallory was unavailable this season, but they sure shoved her into unseen bed rest for most of the season. I'd like to see more of Bud and Coyote, too, and explore all the fractured mother/child relationships.

[JAYJAY1979]

1 hour ago, lordonia said:

I'd be pleased if next season reduced Sol and Robert to occasional appearances and focused more on the kids. I don't know if the actress playing Mallory was unavailable this season, but they sure shoved her into unseen bed rest for most of the season. I'd like to see more of Bud and Coyote, too, and explore all the fractured mother/child relationships.

I think the actress playing Mallory was pregnant during filming hence the bed rest and absences during the season.  I'm betting she and her marriage will be more of a focus in season 3.

 

I agree both Sol and Robert need to be more recurring next season.  And I'd like Grace and Frankie to be more then just finding the next love of their lives.  A business venture in season 3 would be an organic way to keep both women in one another's orbits.

[hnygrl]

LOL - speaking of "business ventures" & "ORGANIC.." (see ep 13)....hilarious.

[Julia]

On May 9, 2016 at 0:10 PM, Drapers4thWife said:

I guess I'm just sick of Robert and Sol being in a perpetual honeymoon period, even after reconciling after the separation. I would like to see the show explore more what happens when a clandestine affair becomes a marriage - oftentimes, couples falter when the secretiveness and passion of an affair falls away. It's not as thrilling. Also, the ex-priest was a fantastic chance for Robert to connect with someone he has more in common with. I really thought he was going to be more long term as a character, and cause Robert to have second thoughts about being with Sol. It's already been established that after his heart attack, Robert wants to live more of an open lifestyle and explore the gay community he never got to experience, while Sol is more hesitant. Then there are the personal, cultural and religious differences between the two. There's just so much to explore and I think the show was almost there, but backtracked. 

God, yes. At the very least, neither one of them has a wife now, and they've both shown some fairly specific ideas about what in their life their spouse is responsible for. I don't see Robert having the least idea about how to be married to someone he sees as an equal, and Sol seems like he's ready to tackle passing strangers and demand they nurture him and had to be armtwisted into marriage. That kind of stuff takes a way bigger toll than they're showing. 

Edited May 10, 2016 by Julia

[hnygrl]

Amen! I think (hope) next season's gonna b an eye-opener for Robert. Sol is very very extremely needy and selfish. If Robert doesn't cater to his every need the way Frankie and the kids did? Sol's gonna cheat. I really don't like Sol. The more we get to know him, the less I like him. He's so self-centered and selfish. 72 year old baby...geeze...

[DoubleUTeeEff]

On 5/9/2016 at 0:10 PM, Drapers4thWife said:

Also, the ex-priest was a fantastic chance for Robert to connect with someone he has more in common with. I really thought he was going to be more long term as a character, and cause Robert to have second thoughts about being with Sol.

OMG, yes!  When they were sitting on that park bench together, I hoped that they would start dating.  I feel that Robert had every right to be very angry with Sol, less so for the cheating than for the lie.  Especially since they got married during the lie.  It would make sense to me that Robert would take longer to forgive Sol and maybe want to explore other relationships.  I wouldn't even mind if Robert and Sol were going to end up together and everyone knew it, but I would have liked to see Robert with the priest and maybe some more Sol stalking.

Edited May 10, 2016 by DoubleUTeeEff

[Eeksquire]

It's in character (and, as stated above, terribly, terribly annoying), but I did have to laugh at Sol stalking Robert in the park... in his Studebaker.  Um, not really an inconspicuous choice there, dude.  But: following them into the house was both overkill and the kind of thing that, to me, makes the whole storyline with Sol and Robert's great love totally unrealistic.  I mean, it's one thing that he would go and pick up his stuff (although why his clothes were in the front hallway closet and not in the bedroom closet is a super weird choice for scripting purposes, even if someone was really attached to the 'Martin Sheen is going to try and act like a plunger is a weapon' visual joke), but to barge in after that because you saw him with someone else? And why is that the character beat for both Sol (who's done this now how may times?) and Frankie, at least with respect to her dealings with Brianna? Something went off track in how the middle part of this season got put together.

[wendyg]

Drapers4thWife: essentially, Sol and Robert are in the position of having their hobby become their day job...yes, I think the show has really glossed over how much their relationship has to change and how hard it will be to learn to accommodate each other and do things for themselves that have been done for them by their wives for 40 years. Back at the offices, there's probably a pair of overburdened secretaries who are really pissed they're not still married to Grace and Frankie.

[debraran]

When they showed Phil's wife, I was like "her?" I watched a few Criminal Minds episodes but they were too graphic and sick, the one that really turned me off was with a sociopath and Phil's wife, played his wife. She looked exactly the same.  Just couldn't shake the eerie feeling.

I'm sure if Sam Eliot wants to come back his wife will pass or be so bad he has to have her in a nursing home.

The sad part was that he told her about Grace and she lived with that knowledge even through her dementia. Sad all around.

[theatremouse]

18 minutes ago, debraran said:

The sad part was that he told her about Grace and she lived with that knowledge even through her dementia. Sad all around.

To me it was ambiguous whether he actually told her about Grace (either long ago or recently), or if it's just that, back 15 years ago when he was working at their house and the whole thing started he was transparent (not necessarily intentionally) such that from that time she knew the name "Grace" meant bad news, without him explicitly saying it. He might've just been obvious. So that one brief lucid moment might've been representative of 15 years of angst about Grace, much in the same way Grace had 15 years of (for lack of better word) longing for Phil. For both of them it wasn't necessarily something they thought about all the time, but it was always there ready to bubble to the surface.

[debraran]

I thought he told her that even when she didn't show up, he told his wife everything and Grace was shocked. Then he said she got sick and he didn't leave. I'll have to watch that part again. It's at the end of the Anchor episode.

Edited May 17, 2016 by debraran

[theatremouse]

You may be right. I remembered the getting sick and not leaving. I didn't remember the telling but, but I might've just missed it.

[hnygrl]

Yes, he told her everything. He moved out. They even filed for divorce. But then she got sick. With Alzheimer's. And he just couldn't leave her. Man, that scene when Grace brought him the phone back? And she chose THAT moment to have a lucid moment? God bless America...I really didn't blame Grace for getting/staying drunk for awhile...talk about levels of unendurable pain...

[wendyg]

This storyline didn't really do it for me (as much as I've always loved Amy Madigan's work). Yes, it's a sad situation. But how is it improved by leaving Phil to be a full-time caretaker for his wife with no respite, no companionship, probably no sex...someone with so little memory left isn't capable of consenting. Elaine's situation is sad, but effectively the woman he married is gone. Certainly, Phil should not *abandon* her. But I just don't buy that that means he shouldn't have anything else (discreetly), especially since Alzheimer's is a one-way street and Elaine seems quite far down it 90% of the time.

[debraran]

It might be (who knows what writers are thinking) that Grace feels a little funny because she was the "other woman" when she was well, they snuck around on her and now that she's sick, she might feel she is doing it again while she doesn't have the means to say anything. She might also feel guilty because she is taking him away from her in the same way. This isn't "lunch". He must have some help, and she will get worse if true to life, but there is some guilt and I'm glad they have Grace feel some of it.

It's complicated by the fact that the marriage wasn't strong then, but for him to stay all this time, maybe more so than they led us to believe.

[Eeksquire]

Quote

It might be (who knows what writers are thinking) that Grace feels a little funny because she was the "other woman" when she was well, they snuck around on her and now that she's sick, she might feel she is doing it again while she doesn't have the means to say anything.

I also came away with the impression that now that Grace knows what it feels like to find out that your spouse has been cheating on you (for years) that she feels very differently about potentially being the other woman now than she did before. It seemed to me, especially in the scenes in the church, that it's not so much about Elaine and her illness, per se, but about Grace's inability to hurt someone else the way that she herself was hurt.  Elaine's moment of clarity really sealed it for her that she cannot do it, regardless of anyone else's feelings about the circumstances.

[debraran]

I agree. It's hard and when you are "in lust", they didn't really know each other well yet, it can cloud everything real with ideas of fantasy. I wasn't thinking about her hurt initially but then I remembered her outburst when she found her ex husbands stash of gifts and how much it still hurt her on top of the greater hurt. For some, they would think, "how smart" but for a smart lawyer/husband, it was "how convenient, I don't have to think about it".

I look forward to both ladies maturing friendship and their new endeavors.

[Bastet]

Quote

I also came away with the impression that now that Grace knows what it feels like to find out that your spouse has been cheating on you (for years) that she feels very differently about potentially being the other woman now than she did before. It seemed to me, especially in the scenes in the church, that it's not so much about Elaine and her illness, per se, but about Grace's inability to hurt someone else the way that she herself was hurt.  Elaine's moment of clarity really sealed it for her that she cannot do it, regardless of anyone else's feelings about the circumstances.

Yes, when she wondered, "How could I have done that to her?"  Everything she knew going in - talking with Frankie, talking to her god in church - she let herself forget when it was so hard to say goodbye to Phil, but then when Elaine had that moment of clarity she got smacked in the face with the fact she was doing to Elaine what Sol had done to her all those years.  Yes, the overwhelming majority of the blame lies with Phil, and there are extenuating circumstances because Elaine's illness is the reason she and Phil are still married, but Grace knowingly slept with another woman's husband.

And good gravy, yes to conversation upthread - Robert has more chemistry with the ex-priest dog owner whose name I've forgotten than he's ever had with Sol. 

[Sesquipedalia]

I think Grace's decision to end the affair showed real character. She realizes adultery isn't just wrong when she's the one being cheated on but also when she's on the other side of it. Meanwhile, Frankie takes a high moral stand against palm oil but then goes home and to sooth her pain . . . eats marshmallows (which contain gelatin). She's funny on the show, but I find people like her so annoying in real life. Grace is the only character I would be friends with in real life, maybe Bud.

I totally agree about Robert having more chemistry with the priest. 

[AuntieMame]

And Sol just seems too much the doofus for demanding, cold and controlled Robert. I know that people often choose complimentary partners but those two seem like chalk and cheese.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

They make vegan marshmallows, fwiw. 

[Julia]

Do they make bags of big cylindrical vegan marshmallows, though? Because the ones I've seen tend to be rectangular and flat and much less poofy than the commercial ones.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

The ones my friends eat are just as poofy as regular ones and the bags look similar. I hate marshmallows, though, so I have no idea how they taste. 

[theatremouse]

41 minutes ago, Julia said:

Do they make bags of big cylindrical vegan marshmallows, though? Because the ones I've seen tend to be rectangular and flat and much less poofy than the commercial ones.

The rectangular, flat, non-poofy kind are usually handmade, in small batches, sold in specialty stores. When you get those it's usually a super tiny package, like four at a time. (You can also get not-so-vegan marshmallows that look like that; the difference being the 'handmade' factor, not the vegan factor.) There are also some companies that make vegan marshmallows that look exactly like your standard store bought jet puffed (gelatin containing) marshmallows. They're harder to find but I've encountered them in Whole Foods in the Kosher section.

Edited June 17, 2016 by theatremouse

[Julia]

Huh. I'll have to look. Most of the kosher ones I've found are fish gelatin. Thanks for the tip.

[Wings]

On 6/3/2016 at 8:04 PM, Sesquipedalia said:

I think Grace's decision to end the affair showed real character. She realizes adultery isn't just wrong when she's the one being cheated on but also when she's on the other side of it. Meanwhile, Frankie takes a high moral stand against palm oil but then goes home and to sooth her pain . . . eats marshmallows (which contain gelatin). She's funny on the show, but I find people like her so annoying in real life. Grace is the only character I would be friends with in real life, maybe Bud.

I totally agree about Robert having more chemistry with the priest. 

This has nothing to do with Frankie; the writers were unaware that marshmallows contain gelatin.   I am not a vegan and just learned that fact a few months ago.  

I think we will see Robert and the priest heat up next season.  Seems like he and Sol will split. That allows for more interesting plot lines.  

[Sesquipedalia]

It's not just the marshmallows (and the brand she is eating does have gelatin). That's just an example. Her whole lifestyle makes me feel like she's the kind of person who puts on a big show about her convictions but then doesn't really follow through on them in her day to day life. But that impression may also be because of the ignorance of the writers. Maybe they're not trying to make her seem fake but are basing her character on their stereotype of someone who lives an earth-conscious lifestyle without actually knowing anyone like that? Either way, I find her annoying.

[LisaM]

Quote

And Sol just seems too much the doofus for demanding, cold and controlled Robert. I know that people often choose complimentary partners but those two seem like chalk and cheese.

THIS! I just can't see Robert and Sol together in real life. Sol annoys the heck out of me. He's been shown to be a competent attorney but otherwise he reminds me of a needy fruitcake. He would drive me nuts in about 10 minutes. Robert is so dogmatic that I can't see him putting up with Sol for any time at all. I agree with the poster upthread who hoped that the husbands would be recurring next season but I doubt that will happen given the actors involved. I can see the parallel between Grace (Robert) and Frankie (Sol) but they aren't romantically involved and, while living together, have their own interests and other friends. Robert/Sol doesn't work for me at all.

[paramitch]

On 7/7/2016 at 6:39 AM, LisaM said:

THIS! I just can't see Robert and Sol together in real life. Sol annoys the heck out of me. He's been shown to be a competent attorney but otherwise he reminds me of a needy fruitcake. He would drive me nuts in about 10 minutes. Robert is so dogmatic that I can't see him putting up with Sol for any time at all. I agree with the poster upthread who hoped that the husbands would be recurring next season but I doubt that will happen given the actors involved. I can see the parallel between Grace (Robert) and Frankie (Sol) but they aren't romantically involved and, while living together, have their own interests and other friends. Robert/Sol doesn't work for me at all.

I agree with this to an extent -- Sol is incredibly annoying in romantic situations.

However, I have to say, I have also found him to be really charming and lovable when he's simply asked to be a good friend or a good listener. That's when Sol is at his best -- Waterston brings a lot of warmth and gentleness to him, and those moments go a long way toward making him bearable as a character for me. Sol is a far better friend and family member than he is as a romantic partner (where he's just a flailing narcissistic mess -- but then, in a different way, so is Robert).

I liked the priest tremendously and thought he had a lot of potential as a friend or more to Robert. I would not be unhappy to see him again and explored further. He just seemed like so much more of a grownup.