S11.E20: Don't Call Me Shurley

[forum4idiots]

"it's her time to shine"

chuck said that about amara.  he is writing his autobiography.  is he trying to groom amara for the role of god?  dean is the key (why wouldn't he be?  look at that butt).  she wants to destroy his creation but for some reason, she finds one of his creations fascinating.

a female god (i know god is neither and is silly, but the metaphor in the show regarding brother and sister, this would make it a she)

my guess, great battle, some drama from chuck of trying to redeem amara the way he tried to redeem metatron.  there will be drama, amara sees the beauty of his brother's creation.......and just as there is "all is right in the universe", lucifer kills chuck and amara flails him back to hell (not killing him as she has now learned the lesson of appreciating all of his brother's creations)

having read some of the comments , of course it has to be metatron, and not cas, for chuck to have this one on one with.  first of all, metatron is the one that needs redeeming, not cas.  second, metatron understands the human perspective, cas does not.  i don't remember metatron's antics (it was that forgettable), but i think it his whole angs was against the angels and not humanity.  anyhoo.

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

56 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah they bait all kinds of crap LOL.

Maybe I missed it but how is that God was able to be Chuck? Did he take the vessel? I legit don't remember.

He said I AM Chuck. So there wasn't a vessel that he took over-I think he just created it for himself. That's what I didn't like about the reveal...that there never was a "Chuck" just God playing a part.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 hours ago, dragonsbite said:

Wasn't a villain? Is Chuck implying that Lucifer is dead? Or is he simply saying that Lucifer's rebellion eons ago didn't make him a villain in Chuck's eyes?  

Agree with catrox14 who said that Lucifer was not a villain when God originally created him.  He became one later.

Interestingly, I read somewhere recently (wish I could remember where!) that in some old Jewish traditions, Lucifer eventually repents and is forgiven, not thrown into the pit for all eternity like some Christian traditions have it.

[forum4idiots]

i'm gonna spread this like wild fire...chuck is an avatar/bodyguard of god.  the real god is the dog.  why was the dog in the bar? lol.

god=dog

[catrox14]

Just now, MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND said:

He said I AM Chuck. So there wasn't a vessel that he took over-I think he just created it for himself. That's what I didn't like about the reveal...that there never was a "Chuck" just God playing a part.

 

Thanks. Bleh that does suck.  So God is an actor and an writer it seems. He's a big jerk that's for sure.

So that means that in The End which was an alternate future (per Ben Edlund and per Jensen "If XYZ happens then this is what could happen". that mean that God was there for the future and did nothing but watch the world burn whilst he was on it. Wow. 

[MysteryGuest]

I have come to realize that this show requires a tremendous level of suspension of disbelief in order to truly enjoy it.  Part of that is simply the nature of the supernatural premise, and the rest is due to the inconsistent storytelling.    The Chuck/God storyline is the quintessential example of this.  It doesn't hold up to scrutiny because it literally started out as one thing, and then was simply changed later on to fit where they wanted the story to go.  I have to force myself not to think too hard about most of this stuff, or it will just ruin it for me.  That's not always easy to do, unfortunately.

[forum4idiots]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Thanks. Bleh that does suck.  So God is an actor and an writer it seems. He's a big jerk that's for sure.

So that means that in The End which was an alternate future (per Ben Edlund and per Jensen "If XYZ happens then this is what could happen". that mean that God was there for the future and did nothing but watch the world burn whilst he was on it. Wow. 

well, imagine being immortal all knowing, all powerful,  and knowing every possible outcomes a trillion times over, all possibilities, you'd go mad.  each has a role to play, even god.  without a lucifer to play the bad, there will be no god to play the good........in a sense, he would just be a regular joe, a chuck, lol....with great powers.  would anyone really need a god if everything goes well for them and there is no evil thwarting our paths?  which is why i agree with what chuck said, lucifer wasn't a villain...he was given by god to play a role to fulfill.  whether lucifer liked it or not..........

Edited May 6, 2016 by lovebug1975

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

? Not really sure why I'm being assigned an opinion on something that I am pretty sure I've literally never discussed here because it's never come up that i can recall. If I have before now, please point me to that discussion.

But I'll address your point.

Dean was buried 6ft under the ground in a coffin in his own relatively intact meatsuit aside from his guts being ripped out by Hellhounds. I don't know if that was the clothing he died in but I don't think so because I suspect Sam put him in some unshredded shirts before he buried him.  Cas pulls his tortured soul out of Hell and puts it back in his meatsuit, heals Dean's body and resurrects Dean. Then Dean crawls out of his own grave. It's totally stupid that Dean's clothes didn't disintegrate in some way but there you go. If it was cable we might have gotten a half naked Dean crawling out of his grave but we aren't so this is about as plausible as it can be for a 4 month buried resurrected body.

Sam was NOT buried on the Earthly plane. His body and soul jumped into a Hellmouth and into Lucifer's literal Cage in Literal Hell. It's never been said that Sam's body was not in Hell.  I mean I don't mean to be gross or graphic but if we think about Sam's body being in Literal Hell, and given what has been strongly implied his clothes would have been stripped away just like Ruby's and Meg's as part of the torture we saw here on Earth. I would assume Sam experienced that in the Cage and has supposed have been there for a full year. So yeah I don't get how Sam came back in his same clothes. It makes no sense how Sam was supposed to be in Hell for a year but he shows up outside Lisa's house immediately in the same clothes. At least with Dean we had his meatsuit on the Earthly plane for 4 months. .

So it's a conceit because they can't have half naked duded being tortured apparently on the CW but the women they can. It makes no sense to me but sure if Sam had that amulet in his pocket and he was able to get all his clothes back after a year. However, since Sam KNEW he was going to be in Hell forever, why would he take the amulet with him and not leave it behind if he really was concerned about Dean having it again at some point.  YMMV

Well, you did ask the question up thread, but I was just being silly, @catrox14. Sorry intonation doesn't really seem to come across for me on the internet.

However, I never suggested Sam was concerned with Dean having the amulet again. I said, my theory was Sam dug the amulet out of the trash and kept it to remind himself of things, one of those things would be Dean. So, I can see why Sam would put it in his pocket on a day he thought he might never see Dean again.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Agree with catrox14 who said that Lucifer was not a villain when God originally created him.  He became one later.

Interestingly, I read somewhere recently (wish I could remember where!) that in some old Jewish traditions, Lucifer eventually repents and is forgiven, not thrown into the pit for all eternity like some Christian traditions have it.

Yeah Lucifer was God's favorite but because he refused to love humanity God banished him.

 

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I have come to realize that this show requires a tremendous level of suspension of disbelief in order to truly enjoy it.  Part of that is simply the nature of the supernatural premise, and the rest is due to the inconsistent storytelling.    The Chuck/God storyline is the quintessential example of this.  It doesn't hold up to scrutiny because it literally started out as one thing, and then was simply changed later on to fit where they wanted the story to go.  I have to force myself not to think too hard about most of this stuff, or it will just ruin it for me.  That's not always easy to do, unfortunately.

I can deal with making my own head!canons about plot because I'm a character vs plot person. But the problem in this show is that so many things have happened to the boys because of plot that it messes up characterization. If whatever stupid thing they decide to do can at least come out of some kind of organic character growth or result in some organic character growth I can eventually live with it.

But for me there is just nothing fun nor organic with Chuck ALWAYS having been God. I liked Chuck as this anxiety ridden guy who had no idea what he was really doing. I mean if I go back and watch MaToTB. I'll throw something at my TV for sure.

OH and poor Becky! She doesn't even know that she was dating God! Dude that's not cool.

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

ell, you did ask the question up thread, but I was just being silly, @catrox14. Sorry intonation doesn't really seem to come across for me on the internet.

Okay yeah. I didn't get the intonation was joking. It's all good. 

I don't even get why Sam would want the amulet that he gave his brother on a special day that his brother no longer valued to have for eternity to just remember that his brother threw it away in front of him? That's kind of masochistic. LOL

[7kstar]

I've come to see the writer's as really fans of fanfiction.  They love to whump someone.  One time it's Dean, next time it is Sam.  They love to just tell the story of the moment.  Cannon, what cannon, it's flexible and can change at a drop of a hat.

I hated that they made Chuck, God.  I did love the interaction of God and Metatron.  I loved the song at the end and I think it was Rob's voice.  It really fit him.

My guess about the necklace was to throw a bone to the fans that wanted it to come back.  I will have to see what they do next, but for me they have given me permission to change the plot, the characterizations to suit my story. 

I might be disappointed if the last ep doesn't have something that comes out of nowhere.  I expect that now.  I wish we weren't so smart that we figure out things that they think they've been so sneaky about.

I have one wish, I want both boys to be needed in this solution for this season's end.  I won't wish for the ending to have a long impact because whatever they do it will be solved in a few eps in the next season.  But now that they've made Chuck - GOD...How do they top that?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

OH and poor Becky! She doesn't even know that she was dating God! Dude that's not cool.

That is one of the many icky problems for me with Chuck always having been god.  

So in the spirit of creating my own head!cannons (or borrowing others) I'm going to have to go with lovebug1975's  theory that the dog was actually god.  :)  That's probably the only way I can keep watching.  

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't even get why Sam would want the amulet that he gave his brother on a special day that his brother no longer valued to have for eternity to just remember that his brother threw it away in front of him? That's kind of masochistic. LOL

Perhaps it is masochistic, but I kinda look at it as it's something that once meant something to Dean so Sam didn't want to let that go even though Dean no longer felt the same way any longer. It also could be kept it to remind him not to take things for granted in the future. It could be kinda similar to a sobriety chip for alcoholics. 

[catrox14]

Quote

's her time to shine"

chuck said that about amara.  he is writing his autobiography.  is he trying to groom amara for the role of god?  dean is the key (why wouldn't he be?  look at that butt).  she wants to destroy his creation but for some reason, she finds one of his creations fascinating.

But he also said that it was her story? So what he's now having a change of heart? How could Amara be God when he so clearly didn't think she was ready for it

I'm terrified of them using Dean as her petri/baby daddy to recreate humanity. And I'm pretty damn sure Dean wants NOTHING to do with being the Adam for the new Garden of Eden. Ugh.

My worst nightmare is that we are going to get Dean having sexytimes with Amara in the finale.

17 minutes ago, lovebug1975 said:

well, imagine being immortal all knowing, all powerful,  and knowing every possible outcomes a trillion times over, all possibilities, you'd go mad.  each has a role to play, even god.  without a lucifer to play the bad, there will be no god to play the good........in a sense, he would just be a regular joe, a chuck, lol....with great powers.  would anyone really need a god if everything goes well for them and there is no evil thwarting our paths?  which is why i agree with what chuck said, lucifer wasn't a villain...he was given by god to play a role to fulfill.  whether lucifer liked it or not..........

But God is God. God is omniscient.  He is the big Giant Brain of the Universe. Why would he go mad?

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Perhaps it is masochistic, but I kinda look at it as it's something that once meant something to Dean so Sam didn't want to let that go even though Dean no longer felt the same way any longer. It also could be kept it to remind him not to take things for granted in the future. It could be kinda similar to a sobriety chip for alcoholics. 

Sam was going to be in Hell forever. And eventually he would have become a demon. Heh now I'm picturing Sam as a demon tracking down Dean to torment him about throwing away that GD amulet. LOL  

But I really do hope Chuck just takes the damn thing back and we never see again.

[forum4idiots]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But he also said that it was her story? So what he's now having a change of heart? How could Amara be God when he so clearly didn't think she was ready for it

I'm terrified of them using Dean as her petri/baby daddy to recreate humanity. And I'm pretty damn sure Dean wants NOTHING to do with being the Adam for the new Garden of Eden. Ugh.

My worst nightmare is that we are going to get Dean having sexytimes with Amara in the finale.

But God is God. God is omniscient.  He is the big Giant Brain of the Universe. Why would he go mad?

why would he go mad?  of loneliness....no more surprises.  he knows everything.  of what will, what has, and is gonna be.  and no matter what he does, he will already know....it is a paradox of sorts.  that's why.  and the only way out of it is to end it.

chuck said it was "his story".  i think he wants to end his story and give her sister a chance....but keeping in tact his creation.  a takeover of sorts, not to wipe everything clean, but to take over as god.  and i think chuck saw amara's fasciantion with dean and he will be the key for amara to see the beauty of his creations and keep it as is.

i think the finale will be amara being the new god (why not, she is on god's level) and chuck being killed under lucifer's hands after chuck and amara reconcile...which would bring the world back into its balance of god vs devil....making lucifer a true villain in amara's eyes.

 

but i still think the dog is god, not chuck.

Edited May 6, 2016 by lovebug1975

[catrox14]

Quote

hy would he go mad?  of loneliness....no more surprises.  he knows everything.  of what will, what has, and is gonna be.  and no matter what he does, he will already know....it is a paradox of sorts.  that's why.  and the only way out of it is to end it.

But he's only lonely because he's hiding from humanity. He's either afraid of Amara or for Amara so he went into hiding. Honestly I just don't buy into this  God is just some messed up dude who can't figure his way and is overwhelmed.

Nah he's just disappointed that the thing he made and subsequently neglected to give proper parenting to fucked up . Huh...that doesnt sound familiar at all...LOL

[forum4idiots]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

But he's only lonely because he's hiding from humanity. He's either afraid of Amara or for Amara so he went into hiding. Honestly I just don't buy into this  God is just some messed up dude who can't figure his way and is overwhelmed.

Nah he's just disappointed that the thing he made and subsequently neglected to give proper parenting to fucked up . Huh...that doesnt sound familiar at all...LOL

i was just talking in general, not the show....but in this case, i don't think he was hiding per se.....i thought at first he was hiding.  but then he was gone pre amara so that made no sense.  i think when amara got released, he was getting all his ducks in a row.  he saw amara's fascination with one of his creations, dean.  pretty sure he will use that to convince amara to save creation....but he knows, it might also mean at his own expense.  being "omniscient" and all, i think he already foresaw his own death and he just has to make sure the next landlord is a proper one, not a metatron or a leviathan cas.

[Goldmoon]

Auntvi, IMO dean was sam,'s brother all the time, his father half the time and was the only mother that Sam ever knew.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

It's totally stupid that Dean's clothes didn't disintegrate in some way but there you go. If it was cable we might have gotten a half naked Dean crawling out of his grave but we aren't so this is about as plausible as it can be for a 4 month buried resurrected body.

Actually I think cloth stays around for a while, even buried, but they would be rather yucky, so I just always figured that Castiel fixed those up too along with Dean's body. He's got dry cleaning powers.That's the only way I can explain that his trench coat is not totally disgusting after all this time.

Quote

Sam was NOT buried on the Earthly plane. His body and soul jumped into a Hellmouth and into Lucifer's literal Cage in Literal Hell. It's never been said that Sam's body was not in Hell.  I mean I don't mean to be gross or graphic but if we think about Sam's body being in Literal Hell, and given what has been strongly implied his clothes would have been stripped away just like Ruby's and Meg's as part of the torture we saw here on Earth. I would assume Sam experienced that in the Cage and has supposed have been there for a full year. So yeah I don't get how Sam came back in his same clothes. It makes no sense how Sam was supposed to be in Hell for a year but he shows up outside Lisa's house immediately in the same clothes. At least with Dean we had his meatsuit on the Earthly plane for 4 months. .

Ooh, ooh, I have a fanwank/head canon for this one, and it even fits along with another headcanon of mine. Okay so here we go... in hell - which the cage was in - I postulated somewhere on the board that the soul gets a "hell body" (in heaven it gets a "heaven body", too), so when Sam fell into the pit, his body was killed by the fall and/or Lucifer and his soul got a hell body. The hell body is what was being tortured. His real body was just lying there, dead, and that is what Castiel found when he "resurrected" Sam - which would explain why it was easier than it should've been, because it was just lying there, discarded. The real question for me would be why soulless Sam would then keep the amulet. Maybe he took one look at the coat and said "ew" and banished it to the bottom of the dufflebag, corner of the Prius trunk etc., so it just stayed there until real Sam came back and reclaimed the coat and the amulet with it.

Quote

So it's a conceit because they can't have half naked duded being tortured apparently on the CW but the women they can. It makes no sense to me but sure if Sam had that amulet in his pocket and he was able to get all his clothes back after a year. However, since Sam KNEW he was going to be in Hell forever, why would he take the amulet with him and not leave it behind if he really was concerned about Dean having it again at some point.

I don't think Sam would've wanted Dean to know he took it out of the trash, because I think he might've felt guilty for to respecting Dean's choice, but still couldn't part with it himself. So even though his leaving it behind in a piece of clothing would make more sense from a logical standpoint, I think Sam would rather have had it with him going into the pit.

42 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't even get why Sam would want the amulet that he gave his brother on a special day that his brother no longer valued to have for eternity to just remember that his brother threw it away in front of him? That's kind of masochistic. LOL

Heh, I can see Sam still wanting it though. It was kind of masochistic in a way for him to wear it after Dean was taken to hell as well, but he did it anyway. Besides after "Point of No Return," things were better between him and Dean, so he likely would've gone back to "A Very Supernatural Christmas"-type fuzzy feelings concerning the amulet again. I'm mostly okay with Sam having kept it, because after that episode (AVSC), the amulet had meaning for Sam, too. It represented his new appreciation of what Dean did for him when they were kids. Dean didn't really know of that significance, but the significance was there for Sam, so I have no problem with Sam keeping it for himself, to remind him - as DittyDotDot suggested - not to forget that.

I choose to fanwank that Sam lost it for a while sometime during that year after season 7 and during the first half of season 8 in some piece of clothing he didn't wear for a while, and that's why he acted so wrong/crappy/etc. And then he found it mid season 8.  (And lost it again halfway through season 9 - I'll blame Gadreel for misplacing it - and found it again at the end of the season.)

[Omegamom]

Sam's body was only in Hell for a short time -- however long it took Dean to get back to Lisa and get that dinner. His soul was what remained in Hell for the year.  So, yeah, Sam could have still had the same clothes he jumped in with.

however, your second point, that Sam probably would have left the amulet somewhere, because he knew he was going to jump in the Cage...that's more plausible.  And once he got his soul back, he went to wherever it was and got it back.  I'd vote for he left it with Bobby, specifying that it be given back to Dean "when he's ready"..,whenever Bobby judged that.  He came back soulless, it didn't mean diddley squat to him, and that was one of the clues that made Bobby feel weird around soulless!Sam.

[BlueMeanie]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So that means that in The End which was an alternate future (per Ben Edlund and per Jensen "If XYZ happens then this is what could happen". that mean that God was there for the future and did nothing but watch the world burn whilst he was on it. Wow. 

In my opinion, since the "future" we saw in The End was created by Zachariah, it wasn't necessarily an accurate representation.  It was just a way for Zachariah to get Dean to do what he wanted.  He could make it however he wanted it to be in order to achieve that goal.  Zachariah didn't know that Chuck was God, so inserting him into that future made sense to him.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

petri/baby daddy

Isn't that called mpreg in Fanfic?  Never read it but saw the tags....

13 minutes ago, BlueMeanie said:

In my opinion, since the "future" we saw in The End was created by Zachariah, it wasn't necessarily an accurate representation.  It was just a way for Zachariah to get Dean to do what he wanted.  He could make it however he wanted it to be in order to achieve that goal.  Zachariah didn't know that Chuck was God, so inserting him into that future made sense to him.

I see it totally within Chuck/God's personality to go ahead and hang out in the dystopian future just to see how it played out.  Or conversely, pop into Zachariah's potential future just to have fun. He's God, he can make everyone think he's been there all along....

 

1 hour ago, Omegamom said:

Sam's body was only in Hell for a short time -- however long it took Dean to get back to Lisa and get that dinner. His soul was what remained in Hell for the year.  So, yeah, Sam could have still had the same clothes he jumped in with.

however, your second point, that Sam probably would have left the amulet somewhere, because he knew he was going to jump in the Cage...that's more plausible.  And once he got his soul back, he went to wherever it was and got it back.  I'd vote for he left it with Bobby, specifying that it be given back to Dean "when he's ready"..,whenever Bobby judged that.  He came back soulless, it didn't mean diddley squat to him, and that was one of the clues that made Bobby feel weird around soulless!Sam.

I've always wanted Sam to have the amulet for hopeful reasons but since he went to Hell relatively shortly after, I can see "all this time" meaning what happened to it after Sam gave it to Bobby.  Now personally I think the line "you wouldn't believe where it's been" is there precisely for fan engagement.  Perhaps all the writers have played "where was the Samulet" and had so many different personal theories, Robbie was literally inviting the fandom to join the debate.  To me it's highly unlikely we'll hear about where it was but you never know.  If Sam had it, I would think he'd mention it next episode.  We'll see.

I need to rewatch a third time... for reasons... before I give my re-watch opinion other than *insert ugly crying*.  Yes, I bawled.  I loved the freakin' episode.  

[rue721]

UO, but I didn't like it. Too boring. I don't care about God! I just don't. And what's it to Chuck if Amara messes with his ~creation~, anyway? He can just start over and make something else. He was talking about how great it was that Nature does that, so seems like he's at least considering that option.

 

Props to Curtis Armstrong -- he did a wonderful job. The show was trying SO HARD to make us care about Metatron. They came sort of close to succeeding by having him be sweet to a dog in the beginning. But come on. It's not THAT easy, writers. Sorry.

 

I like that Sam had the amulet in his pocket. It's such an ugly, dated piece of costume jewelry. I like that the show has (OK, really the fans have) created this gigantic, sentimental mythology around something that looks like it came from Claire's circa 2001. Also, I don't find it incredible that Sam would still be in possession of it. Why not?

[catrox14]

Quote

petri/baby daddy

Isn't that called mpreg in Fanfic?  Never read it but saw the tags....

LOL no that's not what I meant. I mean that Dean would be the baby daddy for her. Like impregnate her. Of course we could go the seahorse route but no that's not what I meant LOL.

[millennium]

Simply one of the worst, most self-indulgent episodes of the series.

All talk, except for some token fog threat that's simply poofed out of existence in the final scene against the backdrop of a shitty song sung by a shitty actor and vocalist.

Obviously God had to appear at some point.   Aside from the fact that virtually everything about Supernatural's God seems tailor-made to offend Christians (but hey, that's okay, it's always open season on Christians, right?) God as Carver Edlund was grotesquely disappointing.

I suppose this is what happens when a show goes so long that it has an established audience of bitter-enders --  the writers don't have to worry about producing swill or losing viewers.

Edited May 6, 2016 by millennium

[Jediknight]

16 hours ago, catrox14 said:

He didn't give a shit about humanity's suffering until he suffered. Sure it was a lesson learned but IMO he didn't defend humanity for humanity's sake but rather to save himself from God's wrath.  When he told God that humans were better than God, he was telling God that HE was better than God. He defended those that steal and lie because as an angel and as a human he stole and lied. He was justifying HIMSELF by using humanity. Just like he's always used humanity. I would have taken his defense of humanity as self-less and sincere if he had made that same defense with his grace and wings intact. 

Metatron is an opportunistic, narcissistic asshole who will use any means to get what he wants.  If he pushes God into facing his own faults and God saves humanity before God dies or leaves forever, that leaves Metatron alive to finish writing and editing the Story of Chuck. He'll become a God by writing himself back into the Story of Chuck which is what he's always wanted.

Becoming human, allowed him to see what humanity is, and allowed him to remember his love of stories.  Curtis Armstrong was selling it big time, that everything that Metatron said, was the truth, he believed it, and meant it.  He's come back to the side of humanity, and God knows this.

As for forgiveness, like has been said Cas has been forgiven, and he unleashed Leviathan on the world.  The boys have no problem with the fact that because of Cas, Bobby is dead.  Sam and Dean themselves have broken the world more times than the villains, so I could buy a Metatron redemption.  Just please don't kill him off Supernatural, you've hit the jackpot with Curtis Armstrong.

[catrox14]

Just now, Jediknight said:

Becoming human, allowed him to see what humanity is, and allowed him to remember his love of stories.  Curtis Armstrong was selling it big time, that everything that Metatron said, was the truth, he believed it, and meant it.  He's come back to the side of humanity, and God knows this.

Metatron lies.

And he's a pretty good actor himself.  I"m sure part of his emotions were geniune in that he was angry and hurt that God bailed on him. 

Armstrong was great but that doesn't mean that Metatron wasn't lying or manipulating for his own benefit. I have no reason to believe that THIS time, he's really truly sincere compared to ALL of the other times he manipulated, lied, and mislead all whilst being completely convincing that he was just trying to help.

I am taking it all with a lick of salt. I don't trust him and I will wait to see how it all turns out. 

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Becoming human, allowed him to see what humanity is, and allowed him to remember his love of stories.  Curtis Armstrong was selling it big time, that everything that Metatron said, was the truth, he believed it, and meant it.  He's come back to the side of humanity, and God knows this.

As for forgiveness, like has been said Cas has been forgiven, and he unleashed Leviathan on the world.  The boys have no problem with the fact that because of Cas, Bobby is dead.  Sam and Dean themselves have broken the world more times than the villains, so I could buy a Metatron redemption.  Just please don't kill him off Supernatural, you've hit the jackpot with Curtis Armstrong.

If Crowley is anything to go by, I don't think you have anything to worry about. IMO, Marvatron is just Heaven's version of Crowley. Went for the power-grab when he could--snarking and quipping the entire time--and found it wasn't all it's cracked up to be. Then was humbled by being human-ish and decided he'd rather be the Winchester's friend-ish, even though it's not really that easy. He'll probably stick around for at least three more seasons,  if not more.

What? Oh come on, we all know this show is never going to end. ;)

Edited May 6, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

The amulet to me was always a sentimental object.  Dean wore it from the moment Sam gave it to him, and it had meaning for him.  It only lost that meaning when Cas tried to use it to find God, and that didn't work.  Dean was at a pretty low point then, so he tossed it away.  But in Fan Fiction, we see that the amulet still means something to Dean, so I'm glad they got it back.  To me, it represents their bond as brothers, so I like it.

If Amara is "nothing", then how would she go about creating a whole new world of nothing, other than wiping out the current world?  I think in her world, it's just her and a little more her, with a few hundred million souls trapped inside.  Where does Dean fit in that scenario?

The idea that SPN's God created all of humanity simply because he was bored and lonely is sort of depressing.  I guess it's not surprising he walked away, since he would easily lose interest in his creation.  And if he ever felt the urge again, he could just create a new world.  There really isn't much to like about him.  Yes, he stepped in and saved the day, but mainly because he was shamed into it by Metatron.  It'll be interesting to see Sam and Dean's reaction to him.  Sam might be awestruck, but Dean should just be pissed.  But will they go there?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

  21 HOURS AGO, CATROX14 SAID:

He didn't give a shit about humanity's suffering until he suffered. Sure it was a lesson learned but IMO he didn't defend humanity for humanity's sake but rather to save himself from God's wrath.  When he told God that humans were better than God, he was telling God that HE was better than God. He defended those that steal and lie because as an angel and as a human he stole and lied. He was justifying HIMSELF by using humanity. Just like he's always used humanity. I would have taken his defense of humanity as self-less and sincere if he had made that same defense with his grace and wings intact. 

Metatron is an opportunistic, narcissistic asshole who will use any means to get what he wants.  If he pushes God into facing his own faults and God saves humanity before God dies or leaves forever, that leaves Metatron alive to finish writing and editing the Story of Chuck. He'll become a God by writing himself back into the Story of Chuck which is what he's always wanted.

Becoming human, allowed him to see what humanity is, and allowed him to remember his love of stories.  Curtis Armstrong was selling it big time, that everything that Metatron said, was the truth, he believed it, and meant it.  He's come back to the side of humanity, and God knows this.

I think Metatron meant it in that moment. God had already told him that angel-dom was permanently out of the question so Metatron has no other place right now than to be a humble little human. But IF he were to regain his powers or some other power level, I`m also sure these lofty ideals wouldn`t hold for long. They would fall to the wayside one by one in no time. For me that`s the character. He feels bad about his previous sins now but would commit all the same or new ones if just given the opportunity. 

So I can see why on some level it was unfair that Metatron got that moment to basically redeem God instead of other characters who were  more steadfast and worthier of such a role. But maybe that`s why it worked on God. He has to be aware of who Metatron is deep down as well, of his basic weakness in character. And yet even such a person called him a dick and was justified in doing so. Must have put things in perspective.

It`s like if the hero calls you out, one thing but if your actions are so bad, other villains look at you and go "dude, standards", the little "yikes" light in your head should go on.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Aeryn13

[KirkB]

Since this is God we're talking about, isn't it possible he wasn't always Chuck, until he was? What I mean is, a lot of people are saying it wasn't always the plan that Chuck was God. I'll admit I came into the show late (near the end of the 5th season, after catching up to reruns) so I wasn't as invested as people who were watching all along. But what if originally Chuck really was just a nebbish little guy who was writing Supernatural for reasons he didn't fully understand. Then along came God, who could have been trying on a bunch a bunch of different personalities and characters over the centuries, who decided he liked the look of Chuck and reset the universe a little so he was always Him? It's sort of the ultimate writer fiat, but given this episode that kind of seems to be what they were going for.

And the same basic thing applies to the amulet. It doesn't necessarily matter if it was in Lucifer's cage or Sam's pocket or the hotel room or Baby's trunk up until this episode (God telling Metatron you wouldn't believe where it's been this whole time could mean in the trash or a demon's stomach for all we know) it was brought first to his hand and then Sam's pocket. Because God likes to show off. 

[NoWillToResist]

13 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I felt awful when Dean was desperately trying to have the fog affect him by taking those deep breaths.  He absolutely did not want to be the only survivor if the world was going down.  As for the brotherly angst, I don't care if it is over-the-top, it's what I tune in for.  It has been Sam and Dean against the universe since they were babies, so it is perfectly understandable to me that they do not want to live without the other.

I can't recall a time when Sam indicated a lack of interest in living when Dean was no longer of the Earth. IMO, that 'both or none' is all Dean.

On 5/5/2016 at 5:14 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Then again infected!Sam whining how he fears he isn`t first for Dean. Seriously? How much more of a Sam-focused golem could Dean be to you? It seriously still isn`t enough? I can`t decide who is more pathetic in this scenario.

That seriously happened? Jesus Christ. How is it remotely possible that Sam, even deep down, thinks he's not Dean's top priority? Fucking hell. Dean sold his soul to save Sam; Dean refused to let Sam close the gates of Hell because it would have cost Sam his life; Dean let an angel possess Sam to save Sam; Dean was ready to die - twice this season, IIRC - when it appeared that Sam was dead.

Honestly, fuck that shit. Yes, I get that the show is about the brothers but this clingy neediness is fucking off-putting.

[MysteryGuest]

I think that the disease was making Sam say those things, just like the lady cop was "hearing" Amara's voice in the fog.  

Aside from the season 8 aberration where Sam turned into a complete asshole and didn't bother to look for Dean, they have both worked to save the other.  Sam was devastated when Dean went to hell, he did some pretty out-of-character things to save Dean from being a demon, and obviously he pulled out all the stops to remove the Mark and save his brother.  All because he didn't want to be without him.  Dean has the ingrained "you're my little brother and I'm totally responsible for you" issues going on, but both brothers have shown that they'll do just about anything to save the other.

[NoWillToResist]

6 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Becoming human, allowed him to see what humanity is, and allowed him to remember his love of stories.  Curtis Armstrong was selling it big time, that everything that Metatron said, was the truth, he believed it, and meant it.  He's come back to the side of humanity, and God knows this.

As for forgiveness, like has been said Cas has been forgiven, and he unleashed Leviathan on the world.  The boys have no problem with the fact that because of Cas, Bobby is dead.  Sam and Dean themselves have broken the world more times than the villains, so I could buy a Metatron redemption.  Just please don't kill him off Supernatural, you've hit the jackpot with Curtis Armstrong.

I think the difference is motive. Metatron fucked up everything because he was a selfish asshole and wanted shit to break. Cas, however, had good intentions and was trying to SAVE the world when he made his bad choices...

[MysteryGuest]

But we're now supposed to believe that Metatron's behavior was just a desperate cry for attention from his Father.  Children who are deprived of attention will do anything to get that attention.  So I suppose if your father is actually God, that behavior could include some of the things that Metatron was responsible for.  It's a lot to swallow, but I think it's what they want us to do.

[DittyDotDot]

Has anyone else had that Pearl Jam song "Daughter" stuck in their head simply because of the title of the episode? No? Just me then...okay. ;)

 

31 minutes ago, NoWillToResist said:

I can't recall a time when Sam indicated a lack of interest in living when Dean was no longer of the Earth. IMO, that 'both or none' is all Dean.

That seriously happened? Jesus Christ. How is it remotely possible that Sam, even deep down, thinks he's not Dean's top priority? Fucking hell. Dean sold his soul to save Sam; Dean refused to let Sam close the gates of Hell because it would have cost Sam his life; Dean let an angel possess Sam to save Sam; Dean was ready to die - twice this season, IIRC - when it appeared that Sam was dead.

Honestly, fuck that shit. Yes, I get that the show is about the brothers but this clingy neediness is fucking off-putting.

It sounds like you haven't actually watched the episode yet, but IMO, the original comment was taken out of context. Here's the actual dialogue and it should be noted Sam was infected with the Darkness Fog and I thought it was Amara talking through Sam, myself.

Sam: We're not gonna make it.
Dean: No-no-no. There's no quittin' here.
Sam: We were never gonna make it.
Dean: Sam that's not you talking, it's the fog.
Sam: You're gonna choose Amara. Over me. Over everything.
Dean: Sam, No!
Sam: I'm sorry, I didn't mean it. I can't fight this, you gotta go. You gotta get out before you get infected. Before I hurt you.
Dean: No. I'm not leaving you, ever! Stop this! You hear me, you dick?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

As for the brotherly angst, I don't care if it is over-the-top, it's what I tune in for.  It has been Sam and Dean against the universe since they were babies, so it is perfectly understandable to me that they do not want to live without the other.

This Season it has reached ridiculous levels, though. Sam "dies" and it`s like Dean immediately jumps to suicide. Like he is so pathologically clingy, he can`t handle one millisecond on his own. Like he has truly no mind or being that is his own. It wasn`t like that when the show started or the first few years and it is creepy as fuck.

Him trying to immediately swallow the fog was horrifying to watch. If the writers wanted to establish him being immune, the easiest way would have been to have the fog just overtake him as well. I mean, it was right there anyway. This gulping breath on purpose? Leaving the door unfinished because good god, can`t take one more second away from Sammy? Vice-versa, they never get so creepy. 

They portray Dean in those moments like a hand puppet who immediately goes limp if it is lights out for Sam. He is supposed to be a character unto himself, not a puppet of someone else. And to romanticize those scenes in a way is creepy beyond belief. If the brothers actually banged onscreen, it would be way less shocking.

There was a lot of fan pandering and meta in this episde but this Season in particular the writing is basically geared to pander to the Twitter crowd the writers interact with mostly. Maybe they should ask one Jason Rothenberg how this can work out if you are not careful. 

Edited May 6, 2016 by Aeryn13

[RulerofallIsurvey]

23 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sam: We're not gonna make it.
Dean: No-no-no. There's no quittin' here.
Sam: We were never gonna make it.
Dean: Sam that's not you talking, it's the fog.
Sam: You're gonna choose Amara. Over me. Over everything.
Dean: Sam, No!
Sam: I'm sorry, I didn't mean it. I can't fight this, you gotta go. You gotta get out before you get infected. Before I hurt you.
Dean: No. I'm not leaving you, ever! Stop this! You hear me, you dick?

 

22 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Him trying to immediately swallow the fog was horrifying to watch. If the writers wanted to establish him being immune, the easiest way would have been to have the fog just overtake him as well. I mean, it was right there anyway. This gulping breath on purpose? Leaving the door unfinished because good god, can`t take one more second away from Sammy? Vice-versa, they never get so creepy. 

As previously noted, I didn't like the episode, but even I didn't take the above exchange in the fog as Sam being all needy for Dean.  Not sure I can explain it well, but here goes:  I interpreted that as more of Sam being afraid that Dean was going to give into Amara - the Darkness (or nothingness as dog called her.) which he (Sam) knew that Dean did not want to do and neither of them knew what would happen to Dean if he did, but they both were pretty sure it wouldn't be anything good.  Hence the "Over everything" clarification.  "Everything" being the world, Saving People, The Family Business, etc.  Not just Sam.

As for Dean gulping fog - i must have missed that.  I never once thought he was trying to die/become infected by the fog sickness like everyone else, but just trying to catch his breath and inadvertently gulping in the fog because it was there and he couldn't avoid it.  I mean, ever been in a smoky room, or just come out of one and the smoke billows out after you?  You try to gulp in clean air but you can't because the smoke is still around you.  

Quote

This Season it has reached ridiculous levels, though. Sam "dies" and it`s like Dean immediately jumps to suicide. Like he is so pathologically clingy, he can`t handle one millisecond on his own. Like he has truly no mind or being that is his own. It wasn`t like that when the show started or the first few years and it is creepy as fuck.

I did not interpret Dean's actions in Red Meat as suicide.  He was trying to save Sam by "dying" so he could talk to a reaper, yes, but also doing it in a way that he wouldn't die either.  He was trying to get them both out alive.  Other wise, he would not have told the wife to go get help right after he took the drugs. That's not suicide   YMMV of course, as it seems they do.  :) 

[Diane]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

As for Dean gulping fog - i must have missed that.  I never once thought he was trying to die/become infected by the fog sickness like everyone else, but just trying to catch his breath and inadvertently gulping in the fog because it was there and he couldn't avoid it.  I mean, ever been in a smoky room, or just come out of one and the smoke billows out after you?  You try to gulp in clean air but you can't because the smoke is still around you.  

I did not interpret Dean's actions in Red Meat as suicide.  He was trying to save Sam by "dying" so he could talk to a reaper, yes, but also doing it in a way that he wouldn't die either.  He was trying to get them both out alive.  Other wise, he would not have told the wife to go get help right after he took the drugs. That's not suicide   YMMV of course, as it seems they do.  :) 

I agree with you, especially in the Red Meat episode.  He told the girl to run and get the doctor and then yelled at them to turn him over.  I don't think he had any intention in dying, he was trying to bring Sam back by talking to the reaper, so he had to die for a few minutes.  Which is exactly what he did when he needed to talk to death, it worked one time, why not try it again.

[NoWillToResist]

45 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It sounds like you haven't actually watched the episode yet, but IMO, the original comment was taken out of context. Here's the actual dialogue and it should be noted Sam was infected with the Darkness Fog and I thought it was Amara talking through Sam, myself.

Sam: We're not gonna make it.
Dean: No-no-no. There's no quittin' here.
Sam: We were never gonna make it.
Dean: Sam that's not you talking, it's the fog.
Sam: You're gonna choose Amara. Over me. Over everything.
Dean: Sam, No!
Sam: I'm sorry, I didn't mean it. I can't fight this, you gotta go. You gotta get out before you get infected. Before I hurt you.
Dean: No. I'm not leaving you, ever! Stop this! You hear me, you dick?

Thanks for the full exchange. That's why I prefaced my comment with "that seriously happened?" because it just didn't make sense to me.

I like the idea of Amara talking through Sam to try and convince Dean. Seems like something she'd do. ;)

[Diane]

Jim Michaels answer about the amulet:

https://twitter.com/TheJimMichaels/status/728606589507100673

[DittyDotDot]

Eh, just because these yahoos say something doesn't mean I have to believe it. I like my theory better and am sticking with that...unless it becomes plot-important later, of course. ;)

Thanks for the link though, @Diane.

[Diane]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Eh, just because these yahoos say something doesn't mean I have to believe it. I like my theory better and am sticking with that...unless it becomes plot-important later, of course. ;)

Thanks for the link though, @Diane.

I like your theory better too!

[call me ishmael]

God should have been George Burns.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

God should have been George Burns.  

Or Morgan Freeman

[henripootel]

Quote

God as Carver Edlund was grotesquely disappointing.

More disappointing than confirmation that Carver is Eric Kripke?  The little bit about him working on Revolution confirmed it, and at least they acknowledged that it stunk up the airwaves something awful.  This episode wasn't wholly unwatchable but it really came off as one of those self-referential gag reels.  As an actual episode it comes off as an attempt to jerk-off the Supernatural fanbase with Erlich Bachman efficiency.  Kudos to the actors for some nice work here but seriously, God can be provoked to rash action by school-yard taunting?  Who is he, Marty McFly?   I don't have to turn off my brain to watch this show now but I sure do if I want to enjoy it.  

Edited May 6, 2016 by henripootel

[NoWillToResist]

8 minutes ago, henripootel said:

 As an actual episode it comes off as an attempt to efficiently jerk-off the Supernatural fanbase with Erlich Bachman efficiency. 

Bwa ha ha ha! Oh, man. Thanks for that belly laugh. I needed it. The visual alone....  :D

[DJG1122]

30 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

God should have been George Burns.  

Or Morgan Freeman......

 

Sorry RulerofallIsurvey, didn't see your post before posting.

Edited May 6, 2016 by DJG1122
Didn't see previous post

[MysteryGuest]

I agree with some of you above, Dean was not choosing suicide in Red Meat, he was choosing the most expeditious way to call Billie and ask her to save Sam.  He honestly believed/believes that he cannot kill her and that Sam will have to.  He fully intended to be saved.  Was it risky, sure, but that's pretty much how they live their lives.

If I had been in Dean's shoes, and I thought the end of the world was happening, I would absolutely be gulping in that poisonous air, hoping it would get me too.  I would not want to be the last man standing.  And he knows Amara is coming for him, so all the more reason to join everyone else, if he can.  It wasn't just because Sam was infected...theoretically, everyone on the planet would soon be infected.

[KirkB]

Watching the scene, I didn't realize there was any question Chuck put the amulet in Sam's pocket. We saw he (Chuck) had it when he showed it to Metatron and turned it on. But that doesn't preclude Sam having been in possession of it this whole time. He could have fished it out after Dean threw it away and been keeping it in a box in his closet in the bunker or buried under the weapons in Baby, and Chuck just took it to show it to Metatron then put it in Sam's pocket and made it vibrate or whatever so he would feel it and fish it out.