S11.E20: Don't Call Me Shurley

[Wynne88]

Only on Supernatural would God get his own redemption arc.  I'm with those who loved it, and I totally get why Jared and some of the others were excited about it.

[mertensia]

Dean told God he has a Madonna/whore complex way back when. This amuses me a lot.

[Aeryn13]

It struck me when Chuck bemoaned that Amara destroyed everything he created way back when that he simply created the wrong things. And really, hyperbole, she destroyed neither the Leviathans (or Purgatory) nor the archangels. All things he created.

However, it appears she has found one of his creations very much to her liking: Dean. So he should have just created Dean at the dawn of time and voila, problem solved.  

[Pete Martell]

I watched some of this, and I can't help shaking my head at Robbie Thompson making the classic mistake of writing for an actor, not a character. Every word Metatron said was 100% unearned after what he did...it just makes Kevin's death even more meaningless to the narrative, not even getting into all the rest. Curtis Armstrong is a superb actor, one I've enjoyed watching for decades, but I could not and will not take that scene seriously because of Metatron's role in it.

Oh and Rob Benedict is really, really, really hot. He always has been, but I get the feeling someone at the show realized it this time around because - the man looked damn good.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Pete Martell

[forum4idiots]

wow.  this was some "god" damn good writing.  i didn't think supernatural was capable of this level of writing.  to be honest, i watch this show for the eye candy that is dean winchester......"butt" his cute little behind took a "back" seat in this episode.

the exchange between chuck and metatron was really good.  chuck displaying the stages one goes through when one knows they are about to die.  subtle hints of chuck being torn (which is why the book keeps changing), undecided on whether to save his creation or himself....and in that same process, redeeming metatron....intentionally or unintentionally, that is the magic of the writing.

****okay, so duct tape can't do everything...it can't stop the darkness from spreading, lol*****

back to the writing.  wow.  great reveal episode for the long awaited "god".  i skipped the episode when it aired last night and just watched it on hulu now, cause quite frankly, the show has been "meh".  but wow.  whoever wrote this episode poured their heart out on this.

at first i thought it was gonna be something cheesy, like chuck recruiting metatron to help him fight his sister.....nope.  it was a farewell of sorts.  he needed a push to help him decide on something he was wavering on.  the irony of it.  just as he professes that lucifer is not a villain, which is true in itself.  we all have a role to play.  he gave that role to his favorite angel, an important role.  what is great about the greatness of light and goodness if there is nothing to contrast it to?  so he gave that job to lucifer to have his greatness and light be recognized.   something to compare to.  and explaining in a subtext that amara is not something to contrast that light and goodness...she simply is "nothingness".  not good, not evil....just nothing.

and the song at the end.  the farewell song. 

bravo to the writing.  almost puts game of thrones to shame.....almost because it's just one episode out of something like 10+ seasons.  game of thrones had been consistently good throughout its seasons. :)

[Binns]

Couple more thoughts this morning....

I'm intrigued by my feelings for Metatron because of all of the villains so far he is the one I despised the most. But someone mentioned up thread that Castiel was fairly easily forgiven and he's done a lot of damage himself. Metatron becoming human is the best thing that ever happened to him. You could see that he was already in a better place when he fed the dog rather than himself. 

 

The amulet....I've always thought in my head canon that Sam picked it up. It just made sense to me. But I can get behind it being somewhere else and God placing it in his pocket. 

 

Dean breathing in the fog...to me that was him wanting to just get it over with quickly so he could move on to trying to fix things...rather than dragging things out...he was exposed no matter what and he knew it. I could also see it being a moment of panic for him at being separated from Sam and wanting to do whatever it took to be with him. I've always felt that Dean needs Sam more than Sam needs Dean, possibly because he basically raised Sam and his whole universe sort of revolves around this idea of protecting him. 

[forum4idiots]

wait.  some of you were shocked with chuck being god?  that had been widely hinted at for a while now and practically confirmed during that school girl musical play about sam and dean.

and about the whole lonely thing.....ummmm, if i were immortal and all knowing and knew every possible outcomes of life from beginning to end a billion times over, i'd not only be lonely and bored, but i'd probably go insane.  chuck made an unintentional point to metatron when explaining this...why should he care?  he's seen it all, experienced it all, seen what they've done and will do.....to chuck, it's boring.

this whole god and amara thing.  this is nothing more than an analogy of two sibling rivalry.  you know how it is when your brother or sister gets a new toy and you get jealous and sometimes to break it just so he can't play with it anymore?  only on a grander scale.

heartbreaking when chuck said to metraton....."you're nothing special".  wow.  and metatron's reaction.  double wow.  this whole arc is about family.  god being a father to his creation.  and the sibling squabbles between sister and brother (amara and chuck)  petty, but oh so human.

-----still wish they'd bring back death----why not just use the scythe that killed death kill amara?  it has been mentioned that death is equal if not more powerful than god and death even implied that perhaps someday, he will harvest god too.

all in all, great writing.  great acting by chuck and metatron.  now the only question is, will the show kill god?  cause that was one hell of requiem he gave at the end.

[Frost]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Chuck who materialzes it back into Sam's pocket

Chuck clearly has the amulet to show to Metatron so I think it's clear he materialized it in Sam's pocket as a cutesy way to announce "I'm ba-a-a-ck!"

3 hours ago, Jediknight said:

he'll give Heaven to Metatron and Cas, because they love humanity

Metatron loves humanity?  When did that happen?  Metatron loves himself and the sound of his own voice to such an extent there isn't room for anything else, let alone humanity.

[BlueMeanie]

I thought it was really good.

I really like Rob Benedict and it was great to have him back on the show.  His performance was great.  I loved how God's mood could turn on a dime, like when Metatron first mentioned Amara and he was suddenly like a completely different person.

Loved the song at the end.

I enjoyed Metatron's character in this episode.  I can allow him some redemption.  I think Castiel did way worse things and most people seem perfectly willing to forgive him.

I like the idea that Sam has had the amulet the whole time.  I always assumed that he picked it up out of the trash.  I think he was carrying it in his pocket because Sam, true to form, still has faith in God.

Amara wants to destroy everything except for Dean.  For Dean that would mean an eternity alone with Amara and she has an ability to affect him in a way he can't control.  Absolutely horrifying.

[Jediknight]

1 minute ago, Frost said:

Metatron loves humanity?  When did that happen?  Metatron loves himself and the sound of his own voice to such an extent there isn't room for anything else, let alone humanity.

Last night, he was defending humanity and while admitting humanity is flawed, he pointed out the good qualities, heck he called humans better than God.  Also, he's always loved humanity's stories and creations like song and dance.

[forum4idiots]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I know, the show wasn`t exactly subtle about it. First Chuck was all whoopdidu, supposedly happy-fun-guy, then Metatron called him out and he gave the usual justifications "everyone disappointed me, I had to leave" that you would expect the character to get and then the ending was very much "aren`t your hearts warmed? Chuck`s is and he is saving the townsfolk in a glowy light". The beats were very much as I expected them to be. 

And like I said, Rob and Curtis really did a masterful job. I can`t praise them enough here. They did make the scenes work for a first viewing. At least for me.

But the content of their scenes just made me picture Robbie Thompson feeling "this is so clever, meta and profound" with every line. "Deep pholosophical debates with God in a bar, Emmy bait". If the show had a more consistent level of profound, subtle and coherent writing, maybe it wouldn`t have thrown me out of the story so damn much at every turn. 

And the Chuck/Metatron scenes were the meat of it. The Winchesters were in some B-story and it was almost distracting when the ep cut back to that story. You could have cut it and just kept "My dinner with Andre God". 

yup.  pretty much.  chuck and meta stole the episode and it was quite the loot they got away with.  sam and dean were an afterthought.  having said that, i'd still watch dean's butt every wednesday hoping for a glimpse, lol.

Edited May 5, 2016 by lovebug1975

[Primetimer]

Of course Supernatural's version of God digs cat videos.

View the full article

[forum4idiots]

oh.  forgot to mention.

kind of makes you wonder.  this was an elaborate "big move" from amara.  perhaps lucifer had a hand in it, knowing exactly what it will take to draw god out.  and in a way, it did draw god out...in a big way.  saving not just dean and sam again, but an entire town ..plus finally making an appearance after being MIA for thousands of years.

 

let's take a survey..which reveal was better for you this week?  game of thrones or supernatural?  both of which was not really a surprise.

Edited May 5, 2016 by lovebug1975

[Frost]

46 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Last night, he was defending humanity and while admitting humanity is flawed, he pointed out the good qualities, heck he called humans better than God.  Also, he's always loved humanity's stories and creations like song and dance.

I'm an actions speak louder than words person.  Metatron can say anything he wants to.  During his ego filled quest to godhood his actions were beyond ruthless, he seemed to take a lot of satisfaction in getting angels and people to kill each other (the way too articulate homeless, for example).  Not to mention having Kevin slaughtered.  So I don't buy Metatron as humanity's defender, not by his past actions.  Yes he loves books.  That means he loves stories, not flesh and blood people.

[DJG1122]

1 hour ago, Binns said:

 

Dean breathing in the fog...to me that was him wanting to just get it over with quickly so he could move on to trying to fix things...rather than dragging things out...he was exposed no matter what and he knew it. I could also see it being a moment of panic for him at being separated from Sam and wanting to do whatever it took to be with him. I've always felt that Dean needs Sam more than Sam needs Dean, possibly because he basically raised Sam and his whole universe sort of revolves around this idea of protecting him. 

Sort of like Mama Bear protecting her cub....

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Jediknight said:

Last night, he was defending humanity and while admitting humanity is flawed, he pointed out the good qualities, heck he called humans better than God.  Also, he's always loved humanity's stories and creations like song and dance.

I don't read it that way at all.

Metatron is STILL a self-serving dickweasel and a villain. He might love human stories and song and dance but remember he said that humanity made themselves into gods with their stories and Metatron has always been obsessed with being God or a god. I have no reason to think that changed. I mean the first thing he did after he groveled was to ask for his wings back and when that didn't happen he went into verbal combat with God. IMO he still wants power and his power has always been through words used to manipulate people and IMO he manipulated God. He might have screamed he gave up when Chuck zapped him to where he was but the moment he was there he started working an angle like he always does. 

He didn't give a shit about humanity's suffering until he suffered. Sure it was a lesson learned but IMO he didn't defend humanity for humanity's sake but rather to save himself from God's wrath.  When he told God that humans were better than God, he was telling God that HE was better than God. He defended those that steal and lie because as an angel and as a human he stole and lied. He was justifying HIMSELF by using humanity. Just like he's always used humanity. I would have taken his defense of humanity as self-less and sincere if he had made that same defense with his grace and wings intact. 

Metatron is an opportunistic, narcissistic asshole who will use any means to get what he wants.  If he pushes God into facing his own faults and God saves humanity before God dies or leaves forever, that leaves Metatron alive to finish writing and editing the Story of Chuck. He'll become a God by writing himself back into the Story of Chuck which is what he's always wanted.

 At least I sure as hell HOPE that's where this is headed because I'm really going to have a big problem if the show really wants me to buy into a Metatron redemption arc.

*************************************************************************

Thinking about why Dean breathed in the fog. Sam was going to be in the Empty if he died. I think he was going to make sure he was in the Empty with Sam so he breathed in the fog. But if he's banking on that happening he might be in for a rude awakening. He might just find out they DON'T get to spend an eternity together in the Empty because it's solitary confinement. I mean it really should be. How much of a deterrent is it if the boys constantly choosing each other over the world means they still get to be together in the Empty?

**********************************************

Who is going to reap God if Death is really most sincerely dean?

Edited May 5, 2016 by catrox14

[Binns]

9 minutes ago, DJG1122 said:

Sort of like Mama Bear protecting her cub....

Exactly!

[AuntTora]

There have been a lot of irredeemable villains that were redeemed -- Meg, anyone? In this case the actor sold me on Metatron. My jaw literally dropped when the amulet appeared. Never dragged. Much to like!

One thing last night that struck me. Back around season five, Sam was "matched" with Lucifer and Dean with Michael. But this go around, it seems like Sam is being aligned with God (being) and Dean with Amara (nothingness). That's got to play into the endgame. (I tend to think the amulet was magicked back into his pocket, not that Sam has had it all this time.)

Someone upthread commented on,where can they possibly go from here? Honestly I felt that way as far back as Head of a Pin -- how do you have comedy episodes after that? But somehow they manage. Not like there was any danger of me not, but I'm very glad I stuck with this show -- the last year or two I think has been a return to form.

[Omegamom]

I loved it, but I've been very happy with Season 11 in general, so take it for what it's worth.

Metatron has a dog, for which he sacrifices, so Metatron is redeemed.  ?

God is bi.  ?

God is a dickish coward who won't face up to his responsibilities.

God knows just how to twist the knife in Metatron.  That "You were just the Angel nearest the door...you weren't special.  Not then.  Not now."  Oh, ouch.  

Even redeemed, Metatron is a whiny nebbish.

God can be a scary SOB.  I found Rob Benedict's acting to be extremely good, how he turned on the scariness with just a twitch!

God can sing, but then I knew that.  ?

"Fare thee well."  Lordy, Lordy, another anvil.  He played the opening to "Hallelujah" there, too, which I thought was a nice touch.

"Where are you, you dick!" was aimed at God, IMO.

Dean breathing in the fog was "Am I really immune to this shit?!" to me.

It was definitely the God And Metatron Show this episode.

More later.

[flyingdi]

Nobody else thinks Dean and Sam are a device being used to show Chuck what Amara already knows?  That the Darkness needs the Light.  And vice versa.

[Ria]

I would have found Castiel talking to God far more moving, rational and appropriate than having Metatron take the side of humanity. But as usual, the writers have sidelined Cas and made him useless and on his own.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Ria said:

I would have found Castiel talking to God far more moving, rational and appropriate than having Metatron take the side of humanity. But as usual, the writers have sidelined Cas and made him useless and on his own.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Cas deserves that conversation with God far fucking more than ANYONE really. I was pretty much shouting that at my TV throughout the episode.  Maybe Dean will bring up Cas to God right before or after Dean punches God in the face.

Is God's hiding place just something prevents him from caring about anyone or anything? I mean doesn't he KNOW that his child is torturing his other child? And that Amara is torturing the both of them? How can he just stand by...again?

I think Castiel will be so broken hearted that God really did just bail on them that he might decide to become human. That would be a really interesting turn of events. 

[AuntTora]

Quote

Is God's hiding place just something prevents him from caring about anyone or anything?

Another interesting thing I'd forgotten -- God stating he didn't have a soul. (There were a lot of interesting things in this episode!) That's not generally associated with good stuff on this show. Maybe he'll reconsider the idea that only humans have them.

[catrox14]

Just now, AuntTora said:

Another interesting thing I'd forgotten -- God stating he didn't have a soul. (There were a lot of interesting things in this episode!) That's not generally associated with good stuff on this show. Maybe he'll reconsider the idea that only humans have them.

I thought that was interesting too. And it reminds me of the arguments about souls and what it's supposed to mean if you don't have a soul.  Like I would like to know what it is that God thought he was doing when he made a soul? Why did he make one in the first place? What was it supposed to do? Was it to keep Amara from messing with his creation? Something to filter out the Darkness?

Why does his sister eat souls? Why would God have been a being and Amara was nothingness? You know I speculated that Amara herself was the actual Empty and with God saying Amara was nothingness then I'm pretty close to calling my spec correct.

[bethy]

I'll be in the minority and say that I wasn't a fan of this episode. 

I found the Chuck/Metatron interactions mostly boring. There were some funny moments, but God as a petulant jerk who has to be talked into loving his creation again by someone like Metatron? Ugh.

And worse than being boring, those scenes meant that Sam and Dean's story was the B-plot. I've said it before, but bringing angels and "god" into the picture made the two main characters useless beyond reacting. I much preferred when Dean and Sam could actually have an impact on their own story.

My favorite line of the night - "Dude. Stop ironing my shirts with beer!" Well, Sam. Maybe if you did your own laundry, you wouldn't have that problem. Plus Dean actually sprinkling the shirts before he ironed them? Awesome. 

[SueB]

On the 'God has no soul' bit -- I found it interesting that he said the process of generating souls made him nauseous. Rather tea being ominous, I found it interesting that it supports the theory that the soul is that part of God inside the human. In other words, God doesn't have a soul because that would be redundant.  

Plus Metatron's words regarding how God's presence made him feel. 

With that in mind then, the Darkness, by consuming human souls, is consuming The Light (God) within the individual.  

[trxr4kids]

Why did the sheriff station have so many rolls of duck tape? It seems an odd thing to have a surplus of. I was also really bothered by duck tape being defeated by the smog cloud so easily. I think giant fans would have been more effective, I feel sad for the tape.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, bethy said:

found the Chuck/Metatron interactions mostly boring. There were some funny moments, but God as a petulant jerk who has to be talked into loving his creation again by someone like Metatron? Ugh.

This is what is really annoying me more than the Chuck is God crap. Is fucking Metatron who is the asshatiest asshat that ever asshatted murderous dbag is the mouthpiece for humanity. As a human being I am actively OFFENDED that Robbie Thompson thinks this is a good idea.

And YES to Sam and Dean be so underutilized here.

If the show would have just made it abundantly clear from the outset the mytharc was really all about fucking Chuck/God and Metatron's damn redemption I would have reset my expectations ..oh the bitter is on it's way. I'll stop now and work on my bitterness rant.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Why did the sheriff station have so many rolls of duck tape? It seems an odd thing to have a surplus of. I was also really bothered by duck tape being defeated by the smog cloud so easily. I think giant fans would have been more effective, I feel sad for the tape.

LOL I was so confused by giant fans...I was like what would baseball or football fans do..OY VEY. LOL AT ME

But I was thinking they should have gone with Gorilla Tape. That is supposed to be stronger than duct tape.

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I thought that was interesting too. And it reminds me of the arguments about souls and what it's supposed to mean if you don't have a soul.  Like I would like to know what it is that God thought he was doing when he made a soul? Why did he make one in the first place? What was it supposed to do? Was it to keep Amara from messing with his creation? Something to filter out the Darkness?

Why does his sister eat souls? Why would God have been a being and Amara was nothingness? You know I speculated that Amara herself was the actual Empty and with God saying Amara was nothingness then I'm pretty close to calling my spec correct.

Re: I speculated that Amara herself was the actual Empty and with God saying Amara was nothingness then I'm pretty close to calling my spec correct.

 

OMG I think you may be right! Never thought of it that way....

[DJG1122]

5 hours ago, Binns said:

Exactly!

I've always thought Dean was a mother-substitute for Sam. He made sure Sam had clothing and food and nurtured Sam as best he could. Way back, Sam said to Dean that Dean didn't want to lose Sam for Sam, but because he didn't want to lose Sam for himself. Looking at this another way, this is a Mom thing. Most mothers will die for their children.  A child will accept losing it's mother, but most mothers will do absolutely anything to keep from losing a child.

[dragonsbite]

Loved this episode and agree with all the loving points that the lovers of this episode have said. However, did anyone notice what Chuck said about Lucifer:

Metatron: Every great hero is defined by his or her villain.

Chuck: Lucifer was not a villain. He- he's- Well, he wasn't a villain. 

Wasn't a villain? Is Chuck implying that Lucifer is dead? Or is he simply saying that Lucifer's rebellion eons ago didn't make him a villain in Chuck's eyes?  

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, dragonsbite said:

Loved this episode and agree with all the loving points that the lovers of this episode have said. However, did anyone notice what Chuck said about Lucifer:

Metatron: Every great hero is defined by his or her villain.

Chuck: Lucifer was not a villain. He- he's- Well, he wasn't a villain. 

Wasn't a villain? Is Chuck implying that Lucifer is dead? Or is he simply saying that Lucifer's rebellion eons ago didn't make him a villain in Chuck's eyes?  

IMO he's saying that  he wasn't a villain when he gave him The Mark. But that he became a villain later IMO referring to The Darkness' influence. Lucifer isn't dead and even if Lucifer was dead God wouldn't even know because he hasn't bothered to pay attention. And you know if he hadn't given him the Mark because he locked away his sister...well...Lucifer might now be corrupt now.

[ZennyKenny]

I never thought that SPN be able to pull God off as being relatable, but here I found myself nodding in agreement with Chuck on many of his lines. Being tired of watching humanity's failures. Being disappointed in his creation. People killing each other in God's name and then wanting him to fix it. I totally get it.

There are so many abominations that people do. You see it on the news every day: killings, mass shootings, war, child molestations, etc. And we only get a very limited perspective. We get disgusted when we here about a handful of these incidents; could you imagine knowing EVERYTHING that EVERY human does? On top of that, could you imagine it being your own children doing these things to each other? How could you not, eventually, after thousands of years, become numb to it all and want to leave it all behind?

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, DJG1122 said:

I've always thought Dean was a mother-substitute for Sam.

Nope, I don't think so. Dean and Sam are brothers. Dean did not act in loco parentis when they were kids. Dean acted like Sam's older brother, who was only for a short time bigger ;)

[DittyDotDot]

Man, I've been waiting for years for Rob Benedict to return to this silly little show and I'm very sad to say I was bored right up until the last couple minutes. Too much sitting around talking about nothing. And, I really didn't get all the fuss about the Darkness fog. Didn't Sam find a cure for it way back at the beginning of the season? For the most part, the episode felt like they were just filling time to get to the end of the episode and then the end of the season. 

However, the last couple minutes kinda hooked me back in. This stupid little show. Just when I think I'm out, they suck me back in.

Cute they reused the actress from Croatoan, though. And, while I'm on cute things, Rob Benedict really shined tonight. Doesn't hurt he's got a hell of a set of pipes, either. ;)

Side note: I've never really gotten caught up in the debate over whether Chuck is God or not, but I have to say I'm proud of the show for coming out and finally stating it. Nice to know they can have a backbone every now and again.

 

19 hours ago, Phebemarie said:

Metatron interrupted Chuck mid-amulet reveal just as the mystery of its whereabouts was going to be unveiled.  Does anyone else think that Sam had the amulet all along?  I found it interesting that Chuck re-luminated it just as Dean found it glowing in Sam's pocket.  

Personally, I've believe Sam dug that amulet out the garbage way back in S5. I like to think Sam has been carrying it around to remind him how easy it is to take things of real value for granted and what can be lost from that sort of thinking. So yeah, I think Sam had it in his pocket and God just turned it back on. Perhaps the logic doesn't totally line up, but as I've said many times before, that sort of thing doesn't belong here anyway.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Disclaimer: haven't read all the other reviews/comments.  I'll get around to that.  Just not right now probably.  I just watched the ep, and well...

What the FUCK was that?  

That was easily, the WORST hour (ish) of television I have ever seen.  

Except the Sam and Dean parts.  

I was incredibly bored by the entire God (and you know what?  After this episode - ending included, the SPN God, doesn't even deserve the capitol G, so from now on, he's just god.  No better than any of the other pagan gods, imo, at this point...) Where was I?  Oh yes.  Incredibly bored by the god/Metatron parts.  Until Metatron called him a coward.  Yes!  But then he kind of took it back.  Boo.  I was really hoping he'd dig in his heels and say, yep - you are a coward.  That's what Dean would have done.

Okay, the last - less than a fourth of the show (a 1/5th?  Damn, I need a 1/5th of something with a high alcoholic content after watching this.) was decent.  Except the Sam and Dean parts earlier, of course.  All Sam and Dean parts were good.  

And Zeus Almighty, I am really disgusted by the whole they-actually-made-Chuck-god thing.  Holy Crap.  What a pile horse manure that is.  

Still shaking my head.  And off to find that 1/5th...

ETA: until the very end, I was thinking (during the Zeus-awful god/Metatron scenes, cause that's how bored I was) that I was going to have to stop watching this show after this ep.  Which is a shame cause I really like Sam and Dean.  And I only started watching it back around Christmas, I think?  I've been binge watching on Netflix and am up to Season 7 there. So I've only invested 5 months or so?  Not so bad.  But Geez Louise, I feel really sorry for those who have been watching since the beginning and have 11 years into this thing - and this is your reward?  I am SO sorry.  And I didn't even have anything to do with it.  

Edited May 5, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
Oh, forgot....

[MysteryGuest]

Ok, so I watched it again, and even though I would still have preferred they not go the God route, they could have done a lot worse than what they did.  There are absolutely pieces that don't quite fit because as we've pointed out before Chuck wasn't God in the beginning, even though they are trying to convince us now that he was.  It's not a perfect fit, however.

I think Metatron's time as a human has mellowed him and taught him a lesson.  I knew the minute he gave the dog the sandwich that he was a changed man.  Old Metratron would never have done that...he'd have eaten the dog!

I love that the amulet is back, and I'm going with the idea that Sam took it out of the waste basket Dean threw it in just in case Dean ever regretted throwing it away.  It meant a great deal to him at one time, and maybe Sam was just waiting for the day that Dean said he wished he'd never thrown it away.  I like that idea better.  And Chuck/God said "you won't believe where it's been all this time", so to me, in Sam's pocket, is the best answer to that question.

I felt awful when Dean was desperately trying to have the fog affect him by taking those deep breaths.  He absolutely did not want to be the only survivor if the world was going down.  As for the brotherly angst, I don't care if it is over-the-top, it's what I tune in for.  It has been Sam and Dean against the universe since they were babies, so it is perfectly understandable to me that they do not want to live without the other.  It gets me every time.

All in all, if they were determined to do this, they didn't do a bad job.  I am eager to see what happens next, so I guess they were successful.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

19 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 (If anyone should want to punch God/Chuck...)

21 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And Dean better punch God in the face.

I was really hoping that's how the episode would end.  With at least Dean punching god/chuck (guck?) in the face.  Alternately, I will be happy (and disappointed if it doesn't happen) if the next episode opens with both of them punching guck in the face simultaneously.  

[catrox14]

I'm not being snarky but I really am trying to figure out how Sam could have had the amulet all along.

Where was he keeping it. If he had it in his pocket on this case, mission that kind of implies he carried it....a lot.  Did he hide it in the Impala and some how Dean never saw it in all the times Dean cleaned the Impala in s6?

If he carried it in his pocket frequently then it seems like he would have had it on his person when he jumped into the pit. Did Cas grab the amulet but not Sam's soul when he raised Sam? 

Did Sam send it to Bobby for safe keeping before he jumped into the pit?

[MysteryGuest]

You're right, Catrox, my theory probably doesn't hold up under scrutiny.  I just liked the idea of it.  Maybe they will address it in one of the next episodes, but considering their penchant for leaving loose ends...that's probably not going to happen.

[Commando Cody]

I figured since Chuck had it in his possession to show to Metatron, that he must have had it. 

[MysteryGuest]

But he said "you'll never guess where it's been the whole time", which to me means he didn't have it.  Otherwise why didn't he just say "I've had it the whole time"?

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But he said "you'll never guess where it's been the whole time", which to me means he didn't have it.  Otherwise why didn't he just say "I've had it the whole time"?

Because it's baiting fandom. That's the only reason for that line. It stirs up this exact debate. He didn't have to have it the whole time but that doesn't mean Sam had it either. Maybe it was in that hotel room the whole time. Maybe the cleaning person put in a dresser drawer thinking someone might come back for it or the lost and found in case someone came back for it. Maybe God sent Joshua to retrieve it from the hotel.

Actually I think that is my head!canon now. It was in that room all along.

Edited May 6, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

Well, the whole "Chuck is God" thing is baiting fandom, so they're pretty good at it.  

I fully expected and intended to dislike this episode with a passion, since I knew they were going there with Chuck.  But for whatever reason I didn't hate it like I thought I would.  I think a big part of that is that Rob is just such a likable actor, and it was good to see him back again, in whatever form that took.  In my opinion, this was the easy episode.  Now they need to figure out what to do with God in the next 3 episodes.  As much as I didn't want God to be an actual character on the show, I'm not really interested in having them kill him off, either.  So we'll see what their end game is here, and just how it sets things up for next season.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, the whole "Chuck is God" thing is baiting fandom, so they're pretty good at it.  

I fully expected and intended to dislike this episode with a passion, since I knew they were going there with Chuck.  But for whatever reason I didn't hate it like I thought I would.  I think a big part of that is that Rob is just such a likable actor, and it was good to see him back again, in whatever form that took.  In my opinion, this was the easy episode.  Now they need to figure out what to do with God in the next 3 episodes.  As much as I didn't want God to be an actual character on the show, I'm not really interested in having them kill him off, either.  So we'll see what their end game is here, and just how it sets things up for next season.

Yeah they bait all kinds of crap LOL.

Maybe I missed it but how is that God was able to be Chuck? Did he take the vessel? I legit don't remember.

[DittyDotDot]

53 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not being snarky but I really am trying to figure out how Sam could have had the amulet all along.

Where was he keeping it. If he had it in his pocket on this case, mission that kind of implies he carried it....a lot.  Did he hide it in the Impala and some how Dean never saw it in all the times Dean cleaned the Impala in s6?

If he carried it in his pocket frequently then it seems like he would have had it on his person when he jumped into the pit. Did Cas grab the amulet but not Sam's soul when he raised Sam? 

Did Sam send it to Bobby for safe keeping before he jumped into the pit?

WIZARDS! ;)

Seriously though, why couldn't Sam frequently carry it around in his jacket pocket without Dean knowing about it? How would Dean know half of what's in Sam's pockets...Is Dean going through Sam's pockets on a regular basis?  

And, why couldn't Cass pull the amulet out of the cage while unknowingly leaving Sam's soul behind? It seems Sam was wearing the same clothes he had on when he jumped in the hole as he did when he was outside Lisa's house watching Dean. Seems perfectly reasonable to me that whatever was inside the pockets of the clothes could get pulled out with those clothes. 

And now I'm reminded of the commentary for In The Beginning. Kripke talked about how Jensen called him saying he was confused how Dean could have the car in the future if he had to convince John to by it in the past. Kripke was giving this long explanation of how time is cyclical and in his mind Dean always goes back and starts things off when Bob Singer jumped in saying something to the effect of, "You have no problem with demons, angels and all that crap, but this you have a problem with?" So, I have to ask, @catrox14, you have no problem with the idea an angel can pull a human body (clothing and all) out of Hell, but can't imagine that same angel pulling a seemingly useless amulet that happens to be in the pocket of his jacket out as well? 

All that said, for some reason it makes perfect sense to me but that doesn't mean it has to make perfect sense to anyone else though. Nor do they have to ascribe to this theory. It's just my own pet theory and YMMV.

 

49 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

I figured since Chuck had it in his possession to show to Metatron, that he must have had it. 

I figured that was just a visual aid, but not necessarily the amulet Sam gave Dean and Dean later threw in the trash. Could be just something God cooked up to illustrate his point--he is God after all--or could be there are more than one of these amulets out there?

TBH, I believe the only reason Chuck and Marvatron had the discussion about the amulet was because the show knew the fans would be asking that question and I think they thought they would answer the question before it was even asked. So much of the dialogue in this episode felt weirdly like fan discussions they were trying to head off at the pass. Unfortunately, not really a form of storytelling I tend to cotton to nor does it seem to have worked out for them this time, but maybe it did. What do I know?

Edited May 6, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[forum4idiots]

i don't normally re-watch eps, but this one was an exception.  it was that good to me.

having said that....of course chuck is a good god fit.....but he just might be an avatar god created.  seems to me if they really want to bait or go deeper, i think the dog is is god...get it?  watch the dog scenes.  the dog approaches metatron, he offers the dog compassion, and god offers metatron redemption in return.  watch the dog reaction to chuck flailing metatron acorss the room, like it was unexpected.  like his avatar/guard reacted to metatron disrespecting his master.  the dog was always there.  why was the dog there in the bar?  dog = god (get it?  palindrome).  that would make for a hilarious yet fitting role.  a reveal yet not a reveal.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

20 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Well it did have the insta-dawn Deus ex Machina, so maybe there was a hidden meaning?

Wasn't the name of the town Hope Springs?  (as in Eternal?)  

[catrox14]

Quote

So, I have to ask, @catrox14, you have no problem with the idea an angel can pull a human body (clothing and all) out of Hell, but can't imagine that same angel pulling a seemingly useless amulet that happens to be in the pocket of his jacket out as well? 

? Not really sure why I'm being assigned an opinion on something that I am pretty sure I've literally never discussed here because it's never come up that i can recall. If I have before now, please point me to that discussion.

But I'll address your point.

Dean was buried 6ft under the ground in a coffin in his own relatively intact meatsuit aside from his guts being ripped out by Hellhounds. I don't know if that was the clothing he died in but I don't think so because I suspect Sam put him in some unshredded shirts before he buried him.  Cas pulls his tortured soul out of Hell and puts it back in his meatsuit, heals Dean's body and resurrects Dean. Then Dean crawls out of his own grave. It's totally stupid that Dean's clothes didn't disintegrate in some way but there you go. If it was cable we might have gotten a half naked Dean crawling out of his grave but we aren't so this is about as plausible as it can be for a 4 month buried resurrected body.

Sam was NOT buried on the Earthly plane. His body and soul jumped into a Hellmouth and into Lucifer's literal Cage in Literal Hell. It's never been said that Sam's body was not in Hell.  I mean I don't mean to be gross or graphic but if we think about Sam's body being in Literal Hell, and given what has been strongly implied his clothes would have been stripped away just like Ruby's and Meg's as part of the torture we saw here on Earth. I would assume Sam experienced that in the Cage and has supposed have been there for a full year. So yeah I don't get how Sam came back in his same clothes. It makes no sense how Sam was supposed to be in Hell for a year but he shows up outside Lisa's house immediately in the same clothes. At least with Dean we had his meatsuit on the Earthly plane for 4 months. .

So it's a conceit because they can't have half naked duded being tortured apparently on the CW but the women they can. It makes no sense to me but sure if Sam had that amulet in his pocket and he was able to get all his clothes back after a year. However, since Sam KNEW he was going to be in Hell forever, why would he take the amulet with him and not leave it behind if he really was concerned about Dean having it again at some point.  YMMV