S01.E13: Take Me Back To Hell

[gwhh]

We were told there would be clues on way. Chloe had affect on lucifer and he has no affect on him. I did not see any clues about this in this episode.   Did anyone see any clues I missed on this subject?  

 

I have decide lucifer and Chloe will have a sexless relationship.   Works best for this series unusually nature. 

 

Dan gets kicked off LAPD. DA does not prosecute him for his crimes. Becomes a PI in LA. Goes to work at the Archer tv show PI firm which is now locate for this season in LA.   

Edited April 28, 2016 by gwhh

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Lucifer's Season Finale Is Fiendishly Satisfying

The cliffhanger is not so much a cliffhanger as an 'Oops, I almost took selfies while leaning too far over this safety rail' moment, but that just clears the board for Lucifer to clean up Amenadiel's earlier mess, as well as his own.

[Gigi43]

23 hours ago, Arthur said:

What really happened at Palmetto Street? Yup, Dan shoots Malcolm to protect Chloe but what were Dan and Malcolm doing there in the first place? For that matter, how did Chloe know to be there?  Who dropped the LAPD pin in the cellar? Why didn't Dan just say he was stopping Malcolm from shooting Chloe?

Not that it matters much (at least so far) but it has been bugging me.

 

My understanding is Chloe was tracking a case of some kind of criminal, I want to say drug dealer for some reason, who may have been working with dirty cops, such as Malcolm. Malcolm tried to say he had an informant he was meeting associated with those guys he wasn't dirty, but anything he's claiming is now obviously pretty suspect (I'm still unclear on if he was totally "bad" pre-coma though, or if he was shady and the whole ordeal of being sent to hell took him over the edge into crazy/murderer territory.) Chloe went to follow Malcolm that night, and Dan followed Chloe figuring she was about to get in the middle of a bad situation (it's been said that Dan knew of things Malcolm was into pre-coma, but they never went into exactly what they were and given Dan has now established there are lines he won't cross, I tend to make of it Malcolm was involved in something shady, maybe being on the take? and Dan wouldn't bust him for it, he wasn't actively working with him.) Chloe followed Malcolm to the location via some kind of GPA locators the LAPD use to track their officers Dan followed Chloe knowing she was on the case. I'm pretty sure the cellar is where Dan was hiding/watching and he dropped the pin. When either Dan or Chloe made some kind of noise that made Malcolm and the criminals realize others were there, Dan panicked Chloe would get shot so he shot Malcolm first. Chloe, the criminals and Malcolm it seems shot their guns as well. Dan was afraid that if it got out he shot Malcolm the shooting would look more suspect as to whether he jumped too soon to fire, since Dan was acting more to protect his wife than following police procedure meaning some kind of suspension/disciplinary action could have come of it, plus, as we saw Chloe took a lot of heat from the other cops over shooting a fellow officer and claiming he was dirty, Dan, it seems, really didn't want to have to take that heat, so he kept his mouth shut and let Chloe take the heat as he tried to get her to just drop it and say that Malcolm died in the shootout trying to stop the criminals (which is how the other cops saw it to be, I think) so it would blow over.  

 

I was listening to the AfterBuzz TV youtube show that recaps Lucifer and they brought up a good point that I forgot to point out: They gave credit to the writers for ending the season without killing any of the main characters (well, they did add Kevin Rankin to the credits but it was clear he wasn't suppose to be sticking around, he probably just had an agent good enough to get the credit.) It does seem to be a trend for a while now on TV these days to kill someone off for the sake of just having that surprise moment. Usually too on TV Redemption = Self Sacrifice, and so I was half expecting Dan to end up dying trying to protect Chloe, Lucifer, anyone because of what he'd done,I thought it could be possible Amenadiel could have died instead though thought it was less likely. For me, for a show that's all about proper punishment where the main character has pointed out killing someone whose wronged you doesn't make things okay, it's that much better that they didn't follow the trope.  

[Commando Cody]

After mom escaped, all I could imagine was Meg Foster.  

There are a lot of strong actresses out there. I only hope they don't cast Camryn Manheim.  She doesn't necessarily have to have a British accent, does she? Just have the ability to convey strength through evil. 

My first thought was Lilith as well. She was really demonized in the mythology after she left Adam for, horrors, believing she was his equal and didn't want to be subjugated by him. I would prefer that it wasn't her. She was more for women's rights in the beginning - before they started claiming that she was murdering children. 

[Bruinsfan]

They could always cast the British Meg Foster: Claire Higgins.

But DB Woodside's American accent leads me to believe race and nationality are just affectations for such creatures rather than anything fundamental to their being. It'd be neat if this evil Mother figure only spoke in some unearthly language requiring subtitles at first next year, as she's presumably been interred in Hell having no contact with anyone since before the Fall of Man.

Another possibility for the mother's identity is one of the Jin en Mok from the Mike Carey comic series, as they were supposedly formless creatures either originating in the void or some unrelated cosmos that stumbled across and got trapped in Yahweh's creation by chance.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Bruinsfan

[HouseofBeck]

On 4/27/2016 at 1:45 PM, Bruinsfan said:

I don't really see how Chloe can ignore all the mounting evidence that Lucifer is a supernatural being. He literally disappeared in front of her eyes when that twitchy rookie cop shot him, and then was walking around without a scratch after she saw him get shot by Malcolm and end up lying in a pool of his own blood.

I too really liked that Chloe got to have a confrontation with Dan and call him out on leaving her twisting in the wind over the Palmetto case. He let her go it alone against a whole department that looked upon her as a traitor, effectively gaslighting her, when at the very least he could have told her he believed her about Malcolm and spared her so much anguish even while continuing to protect his own ass.

 

5 hours ago, Zipper said:

I did too, for a long time.  For someone who doesn't believe, learning that the devil exists, as does God and the angels, and heaven and hell, that could blow a mind (or millions of minds).  But I keep thinking about alternate versions of Satan, like the one Lucifer has been describing all season:  capable of great power, but only a punisher once the deeds are done of free will here; not evil at all, just a tool of this God's universe.  If I didn't have years of church that colored my view of religion (in a way I can't unknow even if I don't believe), then really it's about the guy in front of Chloe.  He saved her life twice, saved Trixie's life, fought for justice on behalf of innocents, and has become someone she trusts.  So if she accepts his version of the Devil, and sees the value in having a supernatural partner-- no mind bending terror.  Maybe that's part of her immunity-- a lack of fear.

I am now thinking either the lack of fear or, perhaps, quite literally a lack of seeing whenever Luci does his blatant Devil bits. As in, all of us see the disappearing trick, but Chloe sees a different version that makes more sense in her eyes and that's why she continually reacts like there might be strange things going on, but not supernatural. Or her own explanations to herself are just that much stronger and form quite the wall.

Regardless, Luci's continued puzzlement at her disbelief is so amusing.

26 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

After mom escaped, all I could imagine was Meg Foster.  

There are a lot of strong actresses out there. I only hope they don't cast Camryn Manheim.  She doesn't necessarily have to have a British accent, does she? Just have the ability to convey strength through evil. 

My first thought was Lilith as well. She was really demonized in the mythology after she left Adam for, horrors, believing she was his equal and didn't want to be subjugated by him. I would prefer that it wasn't her. She was more for women's rights in the beginning - before they started claiming that she was murdering children. 

I need to read up on Lilith. All I thought I knew--as I have tabs open trying to catch up--was that she was Adam's first wife, was deemed unsuitable because Gasp! Mind of her own!, was sent off or stormed off, and then...well, looks like vilified ever after. I had thought Luci and the other angels pre existed to Adam and Lilith. But I don't know enough about it. Reading now, it seems like all sorts of evils are attributed to Lilith. How typical (retroactively).

[storyskip]

I know that the show is plotting it's own course, so this is more a case of giving a quick run down of Lilith as portrayed in the comics.  Spoilers.

Spoiler

In the comics Lilith is still portrayed as Adam's first wife and she refused to be subjugate to him and so went off on her own.  As was HER choice she took up lustful relations with all manner of demons, producing the Lilim, which is what Mazikeen is (Mazikeen is Lilith's daughter but Lilim are what the species is called).  

Samael (Luci) and Ibriel are two angels sent to 'deal' with Lilith to get her to stop sullying her body with demons.  Lilith basically says 'It's my choice' so in a certain way you could argue that Lilith was one of the first speakers for Free Will.  She then seduces Ibriel into a physical relationship, it's not quite as clear with Samael if they are physical but Lilith definitely supports and encourages his intellectual 'rebellion' against strict angelic obedience.

Meanwhile Gabriel is pissed off that Samael didn't just destroy her.  Samael is like "yeah whatever" but in the meantime Ibriel has been sharing with Lilith his dream of the Silver City.  Lilith supports Ibriel's dream and offers the aid of her Lilim to get the Silver City built, which Ibriel takes her up on.  In the meantime Lilith bears Ibriel's son, Braidach.  Ibriel is horrified by this physical evidence of his lustful nature and refuses to recognize the child.

Things proceed apace, the Silver City gets built (by demon get, gottah love that irony) and as they're putting the finishing touches on it, young Mazikeen and Braidach are scampering about. I can't remember the exact details but the children hear Ibriel being utterly horrible to Lilith (I believe he is refusing to allow demons to reside in the Silver City, insisting it's only meant for the Divine) and they make the decision to kill him for disrespecting their mother.  The children manage to murder Ibriel but get caught by Gabriel and company.

Lilith comes to the gates of the Silver City with an army at her back, insisting that she isn't interested in living in the angel's divine city anymore she just wants her kids.  Gabriel insists that it's God's word that the children must die.  At this point Samael intervenes and points out that Gabriel is making an assumption about what Dad wants and it's BS.  Samael rescues Mazikeen and Braidach and says "up yours you pious pricks" to the host and peaces out, ultimately taking 1/3 of the host with him.

Come to the end of the entire comic run and once again Lilith is leading an army against the Silver City and this time she's in a position to take it down.  Ultimately, God takes Lilith and Elaine outside of creation to argue their views on whether or not he should unmake creation completely or fix it.  Lilith is the voice of the argument for unmaking creation; she points to all the pain, suffering and agony that is life, basically she now sees only the horrible in creation.

So long story short there is a lot in the comics that they could pull from and splice together with other myths around Lilith and have a very compelling character/argument.  Rather than just pure slobbering "I'M GONNA EAT YOUR BABIES" evil, have instead a very beguiling, well plotting out argument for the sort of darkness Lucifer and Amenadiel would have every right to be afraid of.

[Badsamaritan]

LOVED it. And I'm thinking Mum could be anyone, but she has to embody certain things - a timelessness, strength, and definitely dangerous. But she could manifest as an age-appropriate, sweet, doting mother or a Hell cougar on wheels. She could be cold and snooty or down to earth but quirky/crazy. I'd personally like her to have a certain sophistication/sexiness, a dry wit like Luci, but unpredictable and a lil bit sociopathic. Beautiful but terrifyingly scary. I'll have to think on who I'd like to see. 

Loved Amenadude's side eye and curled lip at Luci during their session with Dr. Linda when she was reading Luci, heh. Like 'Mmm hmm, that's him, tell it, gurl!' And I imagine they had to get Maize out of Trixie's kidnapping story cuz Trixie is Maize's very first friend, she would have immediately found him and without any talking, simply ripped off ol dude's head and used it for soccer practice.  

[Zanne]

2 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

My first thought was Lilith as well. She was really demonized in the mythology after she left Adam for, horrors, believing she was his equal and didn't want to be subjugated by him. I would prefer that it wasn't her. She was more for women's rights in the beginning - before they started claiming that she was murdering children. 

My first thought was Echidna, but going with the Judeo-Christian mythology, Lilith would make more sense.

[Lemuria]

Quote

I was thinking some primordial monster/mother goddess figure like Tiamat for "Mum" myself,

This was my thought as well.  There are interpretations of the opening section of Genesis in the Hebrew Bible that hold that God created everything from "the deep," which comes from the same root word as Tiamat.  The implication then is that God created order from formless chaos--not from nothing, as certain other interpretations hold--since Tiamat was the Babylonian goddess of chaos.  One major difference between the Babylonian tradition and the Hebraic tradition is that Babylonians saw the order vs chaos as a battle, in that case between Marduk (and a bunch of his siblings) against Mama Tiamat, whereas in the Hebraic tradition, as God is omnipotent, there is no conflict, it is simply the will of God that controls.

I'd prefer Tiamat; I think she's a tougher cookie than Lilith.  And in traditional lore (though, yeah, that tends not to control in either comics or TV shows!), Lilith was the mother of demons, not angels.  

Or maybe it's Amara, and she's not only God's sister but also his wife (a Supernatural version of "Chinatown":  "My sister!  My wife!" :) )

Edited April 29, 2016 by Lemuria
Leaving out words is a bad thing!

[jhlipton]

On 4/27/2016 at 10:29 AM, emma675 said:

II also really enjoyed Maze and Chloe working together.

"I'm glad now I didn't kill you in your sleep!"
"Wait, WHAT???"

[vampdetective]

On 2016-04-27 at 0:10 PM, ProudMary said:

Perhaps "Dad" returned the coin to Lucifer, that was my assumption on first watch.  Then yesterday I was reading comments on the finale from other sites--I had to shop around with PTV down for revamp all day!--and came across a good theory about possession of the coin.  When Lucifer first gives the coin to Malcolm, it's conditional:  Don't shoot me and you can have my coin to get yourself out of hell.  Malcolm broke his deal with the Devil when he shot Lucifer, returning it to its owner.

After telling "Dad" that he'll follow the plan and do whatever He wants/needs him to do he says, "All I ask in return is that you protect Chloe."    I pretty much melted at that point. :)

I love this theory about the coin. Thanks for the quote. Of course, it's so obvious now, I can't believe I couldn't hear it before...

On 2016-04-27 at 0:20 PM, storyskip said:

We don't know if that was the deal.  It could be sure but I think he'd have been staying in Hell if that was the deal "Dad" wanted from him.  I think in sending him back to Earth "Dad" has reassigned him.

Personally, given the wording Lucifer offered his father I take it more as Lucifer was accepting the one thing he'd been rebelling against all his life. Predestination. "I will do, whatever it is you've predestined is to be my fate and accept it willingly; if you protect Chloe."  So effectively Lucifer bent his knee to his father and accepted Heaven's command over him.

It looks like Heaven's command, at least for the time being is to act as an agent of Heaven and retrieve "Mum".  

You quoted me in this reply but I wasn't the one who made the comment you were replying to, so the quote somehow got misattributed. (Board upgrade glitch?) Anyhow, this was my interpretation of the deal too. Lucifer offered to go back and rule Hell willingly, but instead Dad sent him back to Earth to find Mum. Presumably, after the issue with Mum is resolved, Dad will expect Luci to go back to Hell unless Luci comes up with a reason for Dad to let him stay.

13 hours ago, storyskip said:

Why should Chloe fear him?  Because of the stories about the Devil?  The Myth?  Lucifer has said, ranted and railed, time and again that he is not the myth and I would argue that Chloe has no reason not to believe him and if one thing is consistent about her character it's the fact that she is supposed to be more impressed with what she can see, than what she hears.  After all, be pretty hypocritical of her to judge Lucifer on what is said about him, rather than what she's seen, given that he never once believed the gossip of Palmetto vs what he saw in Chloe. 

I agree. The more I think about it, the less I think Chloe will have a bad reaction to realizing Lucifer is the Devil. In this episode, Chloe briefly thought that Lucifer killed the preacher, then she reasoned that an execution-style gunshot to the head doesn't fit the passionate man she knows. So despite evidence pointing to Lucifer, she trusted what she has come to know about him and believed him innocent.

Chloe already doesn't believe in God and the Devil. When she realizes Lucifer is the Devil, after she gets over the initial shock, she's not likely to suddenly start believing what religions say about the Devil. She's more likely to go with her own personal experience of Lucifer, which includes him complaining since they met that he is not evil and humans have given the Devil a bad rap.

8 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

After mom escaped, all I could imagine was Meg Foster.

She of the creepy blue eyes. (shudder) It might also be cool and not too cliche for Mum to manifest as a child if they can find a good enough young actress. Evil children are inherently creepy. It could partially explain why Luci hates kids. She could become besties with Trixie. And unless he could get her alone, Luci would be really limited in what he could do without being accused of child abuse.

[Commando Cody]

Lilith was little girl on Supernatural. I'm not sure they could pull off Mom as a child without some sort of blow back from the Supernatural fans - even if they don't call her Lilith. I also think Supernatural is really good at casting children. I like the little girl who plays Trixie. I'm sure it's much more difficult to cast evil children. 

[Badsamaritan]

Maybe we're looking at the 12 Labours of Luci - God keeps giving Luci tasks that bring him closer to who he is meant to be in God's Master Plan. Maybe Luci doesn't even realize what his true role is, could be leading to something much bigger. 

Asherah is the name I've read a few places, as far as who Mum is. Off to look her up...

[HalcyonDays]

Quote

I am now thinking either the lack of fear or, perhaps, quite literally a lack of seeing whenever Luci does his blatant Devil bits. As in, all of us see the disappearing trick, but Chloe sees a different version that makes more sense in her eyes and that's why she continually reacts like there might be strange things going on, but not supernatural. Or her own explanations to herself are just that much stronger and form quite the wall.

I wonder if this will happen - that while everyone else sees the Demon with the red eyes and skin and horned/clawed red devil, if Chloe, when she sees him in his "true" form, will see Lucifer as he was - before he fell from Heaven (so like more angelic I guess). I would love that, for some reason. The white angel wings are not part of red devil Lucifer, so basically what he looked like when he had his angel wings.

Quote

Perhaps "Dad" returned the coin to Lucifer, that was my assumption on first watch.  Then yesterday I was reading comments on the finale from other sites--I had to shop around with PTV down for revamp all day!--and came across a good theory about possession of the coin.  When Lucifer first gives the coin to Malcolm, it's conditional:  Don't shoot me and you can have my coin to get yourself out of hell.  Malcolm broke his deal with the Devil when he shot Lucifer, returning it to its owner.

I love this theory too, and I think in earlier episodes it's been hinted or mentioned at what happens when you make a deal with the devil, You get what you want, but with consequences. In this case, you broke you word, therefore the deal is off. Awesome! And think of how many times Lucifer has said, "My word is my bond". It is!

I'm thinking Asharat for sure, not Lillith. Not Lillith,

Spoiler

because she is supposed to be the mother of Maze, re: comics

but there is some link between Asharat (wife of god) and Ishtar, which some translations of her name mean

Spoiler

"lightbringer". Plus, that Asharat wanted to give humans a perfect world, god wanted to give them free will, and was angry at the wife, and banished her to hell. So if they twist this a little, it makes sense that Mum is in hell could be Asharat, and escaped. She could be a threat to humanity, by wanted to take away the free will, or get revenge or something.

So looking forward to season 2.

[CheshireCat]

On ‎28‎.‎04‎.‎2016 at 4:45 PM, Gigi43 said:

 

I was listening to the AfterBuzz TV youtube show that recaps Lucifer and they brought up a good point that I forgot to point out: They gave credit to the writers for ending the season without killing any of the main characters (well, they did add Kevin Rankin to the credits but it was clear he wasn't suppose to be sticking around, he probably just had an agent good enough to get the credit.)

That's a good point. They also managed to end the show on a rather low-key cliffhanger. I like those the best. One of my favorite cliffhangers ever if the Castle S4 one because the show really could have ended and it would have been okay/acceptable. Since I'm not a fan of cliffhangers in general (I believe that if the show is captivating enough and the stories told are good enough then people come back anyway) I prefer the low-key ones that don't leave you (entirely) hanging in case the show doesn't come back! So, while I do want to know all about what's going to happen next, I feel like they wouldn't have left us hanging completely had the show not been renewed.

[Commando Cody]

I read a little bit. I think Lilith was not related. Some readings suggest they were having sex once in a while.

[HalcyonDays]

On 2016-04-28 at 6:54 PM, Commando Cody said:

After mom escaped, all I could imagine was Meg Foster.

OMG, I looked her up, and yup - would be perfect. Those eyes!!

[storyskip]

Feels strange that we don't have a new episode to watch tonight.  Just a boring ole Monday.

So I was going back over the episode and some of the amusing bits that haven't been mentioned jumped out at me, such as..

The mental visual of Amenadiel carrying Luci like a baby.  Props to Ellis and Woodside for actually physically stumbling into the shot as if landing/stepping out of that configuration.  Lucifer's indignation was just so ... pure baby brother.   I wonder if Amenadiel carried him the same way out of Dan's office.

When the one goon tried to pistol whip Amenadiel. The non-reaction, turn and eyebrow from Amenadiel was beautiful.

Lucifer accidentally positioning his own goon so Amenadiel got shot "Whoops"

At the end, when Luci poured them both whiskey, he poured himself like a triple and Amenadiel only a fingerful.  A small nod back to the episode where Amenadiel was seen just 'sniffing' wine, suggesting he's just getting into drinking, so he got a baby glass of whiskey.

[ProudMary]

3 hours ago, storyskip said:

Feels strange that we don't have a new episode to watch tonight.  Just a boring ole Monday.

So I was going back over the episode and some of the amusing bits that haven't been mentioned jumped out at me, such as..

The mental visual of Amenadiel carrying Luci like a baby.  Props to Ellis and Woodside for actually physically stumbling into the shot as if landing/stepping out of that configuration.  Lucifer's indignation was just so ... pure baby brother.   I wonder if Amenadiel carried him the same way out of Dan's office.

When the one goon tried to pistol whip Amenadiel. The non-reaction, turn and eyebrow from Amenadiel was beautiful.

Lucifer accidentally positioning his own goon so Amenadiel got shot "Whoops"

At the end, when Luci poured them both whiskey, he poured himself like a triple and Amenadiel only a fingerful.  A small nod back to the episode where Amenadiel was seen just 'sniffing' wine, suggesting he's just getting into drinking, so he got a baby glass of whiskey.

Adding on to your list, and returning to the scene on the rooftop after Amenadiel carries Lucifer out, I loved Lucifer's reaction when he couldn't get the cigarette lighter to work!

[CheshireCat]

And speaking of cigarettes - I love how they keep finding ways to include cigarettes without forcing Ellis to smoke. It would have been easy to just "forget" about it after the first episode but that little detail is still there and keeps reappearing.

[Bruinsfan]

You would think that the Devil might be excepted from network TV's restrictions on showing people smoking. He's not supposed to be a role model!

[vampdetective]

I'm already in withdrawal after one week. Once again, Mondays are to be avoided not anticipated.

16 hours ago, storyskip said:

The mental visual of Amenadiel carrying Luci like a baby.  Props to Ellis and Woodside for actually physically stumbling into the shot as if landing/stepping out of that configuration.  Lucifer's indignation was just so ... pure baby brother.   I wonder if Amenadiel carried him the same way out of Dan's office.

I laughed at that. I assume Amenadiel flew away from Lux since that's his preferred method of travel, but when Luci had more of a choice at Dan's office, he just slowed time and they walked out unseen.

After Malcolm dies and Chloe & Lucifer are talking, Chloe asks him what's wrong and he pauses before changing the subject to ask if it's past Trixie's bedtime. I wonder what Lucifer meant to say but couldn't because (I assume) Trixie was there. Some theories:

He wanted to tell Chloe he's in love with her. After humbling himself before Dad and sacrificing his life for Chloe, and with Dan headed to jail, a declaration of love may not seem so daunting.

Or he wanted to give Chloe irrefutable proof that he's the devil. With Chloe still unbelieving, he can't be completely open with her. This included not telling her what was really going on with Malcolm, and Chloe's lack of knowledge about Malcolm put both her and Trixie in danger. Now with Mum on the loose and Lucifer unwilling to stay away from Chloe, Chloe's lack of knowledge will put her in even more danger.

Or he wanted to tell Chloe he was sorry for doubting her and putting her in a suicide-by-cop situation in Lux. Luci has never sincerely admitted he was sorry for anything and once again avoided it here. (The one time he told Chloe he was sorry in "Favorite Son" was more about him trying to get back on the case than really feeling sorry for his actions.)

Or maybe he had nothing to say and just was at a loss for words, which resulted in an awkward pause.

4 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

And speaking of cigarettes - I love how they keep finding ways to include cigarettes without forcing Ellis to smoke. It would have been easy to just "forget" about it after the first episode but that little detail is still there and keeps reappearing.

I'm not sure why the show is fudging the smoking. Tom Ellis smokes in real life:

Quote

Q Your character Lucifer understands people’s vices to manipulate them – what’s your biggest vice?

A Gosh. Smoking still, unfortunately.

Q How long have you been a smoker?

A Oh, god. Too long. I need to stop.

Given Cancer Man on The X-Files, Fox clearly has no problem with characters smoking on screen. (In fact, the Cancer Man actor is a non-smoker and only smoked herbal cigarettes on The X-Files.) So I'm not sure why they can't show Lucifer actually smoking, unless only bad guys can smoke on screen and not good guys. Constantine avoided smoking in the early episodes because of NBC's rules, but once the show got going, NBC became more lenient and Constantine smoked more often, so maybe that will happen with Lucifer as well. Although with the cigarette lighter failing twice now, I'm beginning to think that Dad wants Luci to kick the habit. Heh.

Edited May 3, 2016 by vampdetective

[HalcyonDays]

Thanks for linking that interview, @vampdetective. Loving Tom Ellis more and more.

Re: the smoking thing, yeah, just show him taking a drag. I'm sure Ellis would appreciate that (or not). I think the issue is that it would encourage youngins' to smoke, if they think Lucifer is a cool character they want to emulate. Of course, apparently drinking copious amounts of whisky and vodka is perfectly fine for TV.

[CheshireCat]

11 hours ago, vampdetective said:

I'm already in withdrawal after one week. Once again, Mondays are to be avoided not anticipated.

I laughed at that. I assume Amenadiel flew away from Lux since that's his preferred method of travel, but when Luci had more of a choice at Dan's office, he just slowed time and they walked out unseen.

After Malcolm dies and Chloe & Lucifer are talking, Chloe asks him what's wrong and he pauses before changing the subject to ask if it's past Trixie's bedtime. I wonder what Lucifer meant to say but couldn't because (I assume) Trixie was there. Some theories:

He wanted to tell Chloe he's in love with her. After humbling himself before Dad and sacrificing his life for Chloe, and with Dan headed to jail, a declaration of love may not seem so daunting.

Or he wanted to give Chloe irrefutable proof that he's the devil. With Chloe still unbelieving, he can't be completely open with her. This included not telling her what was really going on with Malcolm, and Chloe's lack of knowledge about Malcolm put both her and Trixie in danger. Now with Mum on the loose and Lucifer unwilling to stay away from Chloe, Chloe's lack of knowledge will put her in even more danger.

Or he wanted to tell Chloe he was sorry for doubting her and putting her in a suicide-by-cop situation in Lux. Luci has never sincerely admitted he was sorry for anything and once again avoided it here. (The one time he told Chloe he was sorry in "Favorite Son" was more about him trying to get back on the case than really feeling sorry for his actions.)

Or maybe he had nothing to say and just was at a loss for words, which resulted in an awkward pause.

I think he was just very rattled about what he had just discovered and probably wanted to get away from Chloe/Chloe to get away from him. As Amenadiel pointed out, Lucifer was scared and I think that's what he was in the situation with Chloe. I wouldn't be surprised if we found out that Lucifer had put some distance between them again at the beginning of S2.

 

11 hours ago, vampdetective said:

I'm not sure why the show is fudging the smoking. Tom Ellis smokes in real life:

Given Cancer Man on The X-Files, Fox clearly has no problem with characters smoking on screen. (In fact, the Cancer Man actor is a non-smoker and only smoked herbal cigarettes on The X-Files.) So I'm not sure why they can't show Lucifer actually smoking, unless only bad guys can smoke on screen and not good guys. Constantine avoided smoking in the early episodes because of NBC's rules, but once the show got going, NBC became more lenient and Constantine smoked more often, so maybe that will happen with Lucifer as well. Although with the cigarette lighter failing twice now, I'm beginning to think that Dad wants Luci to kick the habit. Heh.

I have to admit, I assumed Ellis doesn't smoke and that's why he's not seen actually smoking. So, I guess, it's Fox putting restrictions on that? Which kind of makes me roll my eyes. As someone else pointed out, constant drinking is apparently okay and people get murdered on that show in every episode and Maze loves to play with knives... Sometimes I wonder about network executives...

[theatremouse]

This certainly wouldn't preclude the occasional drag, but I imagine from a continuity stand point it is easier if he doesn't actually smoke in scene. Or maybe someone else in the main cast has asthma? Who knows. It wasn't noticeable to me that he's not really smoking onscreen 'til y'all pointed it out. Not that small details haven't occasionally distracted me anyway.

[CheshireCat]

17 minutes ago, theatremouse said:

This certainly wouldn't preclude the occasional drag, but I imagine from a continuity stand point it is easier if he doesn't actually smoke in scene. Or maybe someone else in the main cast has asthma? Who knows. It wasn't noticeable to me that he's not really smoking onscreen 'til y'all pointed it out. Not that small details haven't occasionally distracted me anyway.

They've had lit cigarettes around which were just laying in an ashtray smoldering away.

[Bruinsfan]

On 5/3/2016 at 8:48 AM, HalcyonDays said:

Thanks for linking that interview, @vampdetective. Loving Tom Ellis more and more.

Re: the smoking thing, yeah, just show him taking a drag. I'm sure Ellis would appreciate that (or not). I think the issue is that it would encourage youngins' to smoke, if they think Lucifer is a cool character they want to emulate. Of course, apparently drinking copious amounts of whisky and vodka is perfectly fine for TV.

Not to mention encouraging the kiddies to have orgies and fights all the time. I'm assuming Rupert Murdoch's assistants steer him away from actually watching this show so it doesn't end up doing him in.

[HalcyonDays]

52 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

Not to mention encouraging the kiddies to have orgies and fights all the time. I'm assuming Rupert Murdoch's assistants steer him away from actually watching this show so it doesn't end up doing him in.

Heh. Exactly it. Threesome (or moresomes) are fine. Shooting someone is fine. Beating up someone is fine. Drinking hard booze and offering it to a kid is fine. Showing the Devil's "true face" is fine. Stringing up a dead body into a Christ-on-the-Cross pose, complete with blood everywhere is perfectly fine, but god forbid you show someone having a smoke.... :')

[CheshireCat]

23 minutes ago, HalcyonDays said:

Heh. Exactly it. Threesome (or moresomes) are fine. Shooting someone is fine. Beating up someone is fine. Drinking hard booze and offering it to a kid is fine. Showing the Devil's "true face" is fine. Stringing up a dead body into a Christ-on-the-Cross pose, complete with blood everywhere is perfectly fine, but god forbid you show someone having a smoke.... :')

Well, the only explanation I can come up with that everything's fake but the cigarettes... Maybe they have to give the actor hazard pay if he smokes during filming? Or maybe it has insurance reasons? Though if the actor already smokes, I don't see how that could make a difference. But it's definitely weird. (Maybe someone will pose the question to the showrunners in an interview? Or tweet the writer's room during a Q&A? )

Edited May 5, 2016 by CheshireCat

[sinkwriter]

Quote

There are a lot of strong actresses out there. I only hope they don't cast Camryn Manheim.  She doesn't necessarily have to have a British accent, does she? Just have the ability to convey strength through evil. 

I'm confused by this. Why would they consider Camryn Manheim for the role? (And I say that as someone who really loved her as Ellenor on The Practice.)

[fastiller]

On 5/3/2016 at 3:43 AM, vampdetective said:

I'm not sure why the show is fudging the smoking. Tom Ellis smokes in real life:

 

&

On 5/3/2016 at 9:48 AM, HalcyonDays said:

Thanks for linking that interview, @vampdetective. Loving Tom Ellis more and more.

 

 Yes, thanks for the link. I think the article may've been posted before character names were nailed down:

Quote

But when a singer is murdered, he starts to feel some all-too-human feelings and gets dragged into the investigation, teaming up unofficially with detective Chloe Dancer (Lauren German).

Also this part bugs:

Quote

 

Q I think your Welsh accent really works in this case – did anyone talk to you about keeping it?

A It kind of leapt off the page for me in the way the character was written.  I was reading it, and it totally reminded me of studying Oscar Wilde and Noël Coward and all that kind of high-style aristocracy fun characters in those plays. And I kind of used that as a reference point for sure when I was coming up with how I was going to play him. I always say he’s the love child of Noël Coward and Mick Jagger.

 

I don't hear Lucifer as Welsh one bit!  English (if not defined as to region) certainly, but no way does it sound Welsh to me.  But Tom Ellis didn't refute it, so who am I to make judgement?

[vampdetective]

11 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Well, the only explanation I can come up with that everything's fake but the cigarettes... Maybe they have to give the actor hazard pay if he smokes during filming? Or maybe it has insurance reasons? Though if the actor already smokes, I don't see how that could make a difference. But it's definitely weird. (Maybe someone will pose the question to the showrunners in an interview? Or tweet the writer's room during a Q&A? )

If it's a health thing, they could use herbal cigarettes like the Cancer Man actor on The X-Files. I'm leaning towards it being some weird, arbitrary network rule where you can imply that good guys smoke but can't actually show them taking a puff.

11 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

I'm confused by this. Why would they consider Camryn Manheim for the role? (And I say that as someone who really loved her as Ellenor on The Practice.)

She had a recurring role as a bad-ass NSA-type boss on Person of Interest who was evil in the beginning but later switched sides. Maybe whoever suggested her was thinking of that.

8 hours ago, fastiller said:

I don't hear Lucifer as Welsh one bit!  English (if not defined as to region) certainly, but no way does it sound Welsh to me.  But Tom Ellis didn't refute it, so who am I to make judgement?

When asked directly what accent he uses for Lucifer, Tom says it's a heightened received pronunciation (RP), like at the beginning of this video interview. I think he was just being polite -- or had limited time since he was doing a lot of interviews to promote the start of the series -- and decided not to get into the differences between Welsh and RP with someone who obviously couldn't hear it.

Edited May 6, 2016 by vampdetective

[vampdetective]

On 2016-05-03 at 3:21 PM, CheshireCat said:

I think he was just very rattled about what he had just discovered and probably wanted to get away from Chloe/Chloe to get away from him. As Amenadiel pointed out, Lucifer was scared and I think that's what he was in the situation with Chloe. I wouldn't be surprised if we found out that Lucifer had put some distance between them again at the beginning of S2.

If they do that, I hope it doesn't last for more than one episode. As Sleepy Hollow proved, it's a bad idea to have your two lead characters separated for an extended period. I like that #TeamLucifer used a three-week time jump to show that Lucifer was avoiding Chloe for three weeks instead of having multiple episodes where they don't interact.

[fastiller]

7 hours ago, vampdetective said:

When asked directly what accent he uses for Lucifer, Tom says it's a heightened received pronunciation (RP), like at the beginning of this video interview. I think he was just being polite -- or had limited time since he was doing a lot of interviews to promote the start of the series -- and decided not to get into the differences between Welsh and RP with someone who obviously couldn't hear it.

I'll watch the interview; I don't recall having heard Ellis's regular accent.  I just find it funny that people can't distinguish the various accents of the British Isles/former empire.

[CheshireCat]

10 hours ago, vampdetective said:

If they do that, I hope it doesn't last for more than one episode. As Sleepy Hollow proved, it's a bad idea to have your two lead characters separated for an extended period. I like that #TeamLucifer used a three-week time jump to show that Lucifer was avoiding Chloe for three weeks instead of having multiple episodes where they don't interact.

I was meaning that it would be done in the same way that they did it the last time - someone mentioning that they've spent time apart. Although, I have to admit, that I wouldn't mind if they spent actual time apart. I don't find that they need to be joined at the hip. If we get Ellis and Woodside working side by side it would be just as well, I don't think they need Chloe, really. But that's my personal opinion.

Although, I think it would make sense if they weren't working together. After all, it seems like S2 is going to be about finding mom rather than solving the mystery of humans, but we'll see.

(And as for bad ideas, Castle just dismissed their leading lady, and I don't think it can get much worse than getting rid of one half of a relationship on a show which is about a relationship... So, it seems that on TV all bets are off)

[vampdetective]

Just remembered this interview where around 4:15 Tom demonstrates switching from his regular speaking voice to Lucifer and it's really easy to hear the difference.

I don't think Lucifer & Chloe need to be joined at the hips either, but I think they should have meaningful interactions in every episode even if the individual scenes are short. While Luci & Amendiel hunting down mum is going to be fun, if that becomes the main thrust of the show, then Lucifer will have essentially turned into Supernatural -- two brothers hunting demons while bitching at each other about doing their father's work. Heh.

In the AfterBuzz interview, showrunner Joe Henderson indicated that he liked the mix of procedural and serialized that the show found towards the end of the season, so they're probably going to stick to that formula where there will be cases of the week, but the cases will tie into Lucifer more directly. He also said that Chloe's not going to dismiss that she saw Lucifer get fatally shot and yet he's still alive, but he said the challenge for the writers will be finding a way for Chloe to be questioning or investigating Lucifer that doesn't repeat what they've done before. I hope this means that they're not going to drag out Chloe realizing that Lucifer really is the Devil.

Castle is actually a good example of what not to do. After 8 seasons, Castle never did much to develop its supporting characters. And for most of this season, the leads in Castle would have a scene at the beginning or end of the episode and spend most of the episode apart.

[morriss]

That was a great ending.  Lucifer lay dying, but all he was worried about was Cloe.  He actually cares for her.

[CheshireCat]

On ‎06‎.‎05‎.‎2016 at 1:43 PM, vampdetective said:

I don't think Lucifer & Chloe need to be joined at the hips either, but I think they should have meaningful interactions in every episode even if the individual scenes are short. While Luci & Amendiel hunting down mum is going to be fun, if that becomes the main thrust of the show, then Lucifer will have essentially turned into Supernatural -- two brothers hunting demons while bitching at each other about doing their father's work. Heh.

Don't watch Supernatural. And I don't mind Chloe, Together with Dan, she's just the character I care for the least though I would love if they really tried to get them back together and she and Lucifer would just remain friends. I actually think that it would be interesting and a nice change from the usual.

 

Quote

In the AfterBuzz interview, showrunner Joe Henderson indicated that he liked the mix of procedural and serialized that the show found towards the end of the season, so they're probably going to stick to that formula where there will be cases of the week, but the cases will tie into Lucifer more directly. He also said that Chloe's not going to dismiss that she saw Lucifer get fatally shot and yet he's still alive, but he said the challenge for the writers will be finding a way for Chloe to be questioning or investigating Lucifer that doesn't repeat what they've done before. I hope this means that they're not going to drag out Chloe realizing that Lucifer really is the Devil.

I prefer the mix of procedural and serialized, too and thought those last three episodes were awesome! Didn't much care for episode 8 and 9. They were okay, but not as good as the rest, I think.

Quote

Castle is actually a good example of what not to do. After 8 seasons, Castle never did much to develop its supporting characters. And for most of this season, the leads in Castle would have a scene at the beginning or end of the episode and spend most of the episode apart.

I don't think Castle really needed to develop the supporting cast (but that's my personal opinion) because it was all about the leads and their relationship. Lucifer's very different in that regard. It's about the story/his story more than the relationship and you have one character in the center and everyone has their own connection/relationship to that character. And because of that, they each have equal importance and carry equal weight. (With maybe the exception of Dan)

Edited May 9, 2016 by CheshireCat

[ReadingZombie]

LOVED this episode! It was so awesome! I didn't even mind Det. Douche this episode. I just wish we had gotten more Trixie, maybe some Trixie and Maze together. 

The therapy session was gold. Hoping we get more Dr. Linda next season. Surely Amenadude and Luci will have some Mum issues to work out. :-D Found Amenadude's sullen response to Lucifer regarding the fact that "Dad" actually responded to Lucifer interesting. Has Amenadude been getting the silent treatment from Dear Old Dad? 

I thought we got a bit of a clue about Chloe when she and Maze were talking and she said she was a cop "'Cause I hate it when people get away with things they shouldn't." That seems to me something that she and Lucifer have in common. 

I, too, literally laughed out loud when Malcolm made the shooting himself in the head motion while Chloe and Trixie were talking. I kept hoping Lucifer would get his wings back, and show "Malkie" (lol) the REAL devil.

I don't see how they keep Chloe in denial much longer. So excited to where they take all of these great characters! 

[jhlipton]

A show that does secondary characters extremely well is Elementary.  They can have someone in one scene and you get exactly where they are coming from.  And the recurring characters are fully fleshed out, with consistent motivation.

It also has the very rare quality of having completely platonic leads.

Edited May 10, 2016 by jhlipton
Refoirmatting

[vampdetective]

8 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

I don't think Castle really needed to develop the supporting cast (but that's my personal opinion) because it was all about the leads and their relationship. Lucifer's very different in that regard. It's about the story/his story more than the relationship and you have one character in the center and everyone has their own connection/relationship to that character. And because of that, they each have equal importance and carry equal weight. (With maybe the exception of Dan)

I think any long-running show needs to develop a strong supporting or recurring cast if it doesn't already have an ensemble cast, just to provide a wider variety of storytelling. Bones is also all about the leads and their relationship, but Bones also has a well-developed supporting cast and I think this is one of the reasons for its longevity whereas the Castle writers apparently feel that they have to drastically change the show's format to keep it going.

I actually think Lucifer is set up to be about both Lucifer & Chloe and their relationship (whether it ultimately ends up romantic like Castle or remains platonic like Elementary). But even if Lucifer was the only central character, I think people still want to see the supporting characters developed outside of Lucifer's orbit. For example, some people have commented that it would be fun for Maze and Linda to become friends vs. Linda just remaining Lucifer's therapist and nothing more.

[jhlipton]

7 hours ago, vampdetective said:

For example, some people have commented that it would be fun for Maze and Linda to become friends vs. Linda just remaining Lucifer's therapist and nothing more.

It's fun to watch all the interactions so far: Maze and Trixie, Dr Linda and Chloe, Maze and Chloe (I still think "I'm glad I didn't kill you in your sleep" followed by Chloe's look of "Wait, what?" is one of the more fun bits of the show) or Amendude and Dr Linda (with or without Lucifer).  We've yet to see Amendude interact with Chloe, Det. Douche or Trixie. As long as the characters are well-developed and consistent, secondary characters can add a lot to a show.

[Mojeaux]

I’ve been busy, so I just caught this last episode last night. Someone earlier said LDS (Mormons) have a doctrine that God has a wife (yes, we do), ho hum. So it pleased me that they went there. For me, taking that a few steps farther was squee-inducing. OMG WHAT DID SHE DO TO BE BOUND IN HELL?! Awesome.

I immediately envisioned “Mum” would be a hot seductress type, but in reading the replies, I realized that would be a cliche. Someone mentioned that she manifest as a child (ugh, Claudia in Interview with a Vampire). I think it would be HILARIOUS if she turned out to be a tiny old woman in a Jackie O. Chanel suit with pearls and a small handbag. Polite, soft-spoken. Think physically smaller Jessica Fletcher (Murder She Wrote) or any other old woman in a cozy mystery.

How could anybody like THAT terrify Lucifer?

If she turns out to be smokin’ hot now, I’ll be disappointed.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Mojeaux

[Bruinsfan]

The show's not on the CW, so I suppose they're not obligated to make all female antagonists twentysomething swimsuit model types. (I'd pay folding money to see Grace Jones in the role - you know it wouldn't require acting for her to scare the hell out of the rest of the cast!)

[jhlipton]

On 5/23/2016 at 11:40 AM, Bruinsfan said:

The show's not on the CW, so I suppose they're not obligated to make all female antagonists twentysomething swimsuit model types. (I'd pay folding money to see Grace Jones in the role - you know it wouldn't require acting for her to scare the hell out of the rest of the cast!)

That would be awesome!

[DaboGirl]

I tried really hard not to be drawn into another show, guess I am susceptible to Lucifer's charms.  I've binged watched it twice already as well as first run on Fox.  

The season finale was perfect as every character got a little more added to their story.  I can't wait for Season 2, and keeping fingers crossed for a few more than thirteen episodes this time.

Somewhere in this forum a poster mentioned D.B. Woodside's American accent.  He is American born in New York City, Jamaica Queens to be exact.  Maybe the Jamaica threw them off or I read it wrong. I've been skim reading so I could have misunderstood.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

I finally broke down and watched this ep.  Sharks jumped.  Multiple times.  It still had its moments, though.

I'll never buy that any of the extra-human characters would so crave their current human existence.  They've been around for centuries and/or millennia.  They've been there and done that.  They are aware in their core the implications of messing with "Dad."

I always enjoy when Luci takes over in public settings, like the funeral in this ep.  He is a brilliant comic.  His tableau is the human farce.  For me, it's the best part of this show.  I also happened to be right with him as he challenged the attendees!

Since the show takes outrageous liberty with the original source material, I'll go with Eve as "Mum."

[gwhh]

The final episode of the first season (the previews said so) was suppose to give us some information on why Chloe immune to Lucifer charms.  I did not see ANY info in this area?  Did I miss it or was there none??