S04.E07: Travel Agents

[maczero]

11 hours ago, snarktini said:

Wondering what I'd do if I were Martha. I am pretty sure I'd have taken the bridge option.

The action hero in me would want to run thinking I can avoid the FBI and the KGB for the rest of my life.  After getting over that fantasy, I'd probably turn myself over to the FBI.  Better to be imprisoned by the devil you know than to be sent to Russia.  Also, I could get some payback on Philip by revealing everything I know about him.

10 hours ago, micat said:

He had stories, like that the government would decide when to turn the heat on in their apartment building!  Sometimes they would wait until September or October to turn it on, and people would grumble.

Anyone who has lived in a utilities included in the rent apartment building is probably used to this. 

4 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

 I so wanted Martha to knock Elizabeth on her ass.  Beat the ever living crap out of her.  Anything, other than having Martha act like a beaten dog.

Yeah, that ain't happening.  Liz has beaten down men who outweigh her by at least hundred pounds.  That said, I wish she could get some kind of payback against Philip, Elizabeth and the KGB.   

Edited April 29, 2016 by maczero

[AliShibaz]

I never liked Martha and never understood why so many people thought she was attractive. I never understood why Agent Amadoor would pursue her when he was so active with so many other women.

But, then INA1 posted the following link to a podcast where Alison Wright has a very nice conversation about Martha. It turns out that she has a strong English accent and I don't know why, but hearing Alison speak in her native accent really changed things for me. She seems like an entirely different person when heard speaking with her true accent. She seems very cute to me and yes ... very attractive too. I'm not sure how it is possible for someone's level of attractiveness to change so much because of their accent. But it really did in this case.

The interview is fairly lengthy and I enjoyed all of it except whenever the host spoke. I thought he was just too long winded and I wish there was a way to just cut him out of the interview and listen to Alison. But if you didn't see the post where INA1 posted this link, I would urge you all to watch this interview. I'm quite certain you will enjoy it very much. I sure did.

I love this show too.

Here is the link:
www.goldderby.com/article/2016/alison-wright-interview-the-americans-season-4-confirmation-video/

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, micat said:

I dunno. Millions of people lived in the USSR. Not all of them were miserable all of the time. I had a close friend who grew up in Ukraine during this period.

Yeah, I don't understand this idea of living in Russia being like living in hell. In Martha's case, yes, I think it's very true. Not because nobody could move to Russia and be happy but because she herself has very little motivation to do the work involved in making the transition. She didn't choose the place, she'll be completely alone, has never had any interest in learning another language, has no one there she particularly even wants to talk to, doesn't seem to be very socially skilled to begin with. Plenty of immigrants never do learn the language of their new country. Someone who's as depressed as Martha probably will be might not be able to make the effort. Any language is hard to learn, and Russian is harder than many for English speakers.

But for Philip and Elizabeth? They would not see living in Russia as any kind of barrier to a happy life. Any barrier to happiness would come from outside forces, like being separated from their children. This season America is the land of duty and Russia is the land of freedom for Philip and Elizabeth.

9 hours ago, J-Man said:

Why did they keep referring to "Russia" as opposed to the Soviet Union or the USSR? I know that many people continued to use "Russia" as a synonym for the USSR out of habit, but by the 1980s it had pretty much died out. (Of course now we're having to remember to go back to "Russia.") Anyway, it seemed out of character, especially for Philip, to use "Russia."

1 hour ago, clanstarling said:

We referred to it as the USSR. I imagine within the USSR people referred to it in many ways. Regardless of the political structure, for most of them Russia was the motherland.

I believe it's the exact opposite. We in the US would say Soviet Union or Russia interchangeably. They would refer to themselves as being from the Soviet Union (but could also refer to Russia in circumstances where they were referring to just that part of it or whatever). Elizabeth and Philip have used Russia to refer to the country when speaking to Americans in English. They're picking up the US usage imo. When Elizabeth tells Betty she's from Russia I think she pauses before she says it, maybe both because she's deciding to tell the truth and also because she's considering which word to use. When Paige asks where they're from she says The Soviet Union. Oleg, iirc refers to it as "the Union" at one point.

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

As for this episode, not liking it at all.  I thought after last week's episode, Martha had put on her big girl pants and would stand up for herself and do the right thing.  Instead, she reverted back to the pathetic woman she has always been.   I so wanted Martha to knock Elizabeth on her ass.  Beat the ever living crap out of her.  Anything, other than having Martha act like a beaten dog.

Standing up for herself doesn't necessarily mean knocking Elizabeth out and going to the FBI. (Leaving aside that of course she couldn't knock Elizabeth out--she might as well try to knock out Ivan Drogo from Rocky IV!) For her, it meant standing by the choices she's made all along. I think it's important to remember that Martha has simply never been conflicted about betraying her country. She's never expressed much dismay over that aspect at all. She chose Clark over and over, even when he said he was KGB, and she's accepting the consequences of that.

Quote

Ahhh, Philip poisoned Martha's ability to trust her co-workers, when he doctored an audio tape to make it seem that Gaad and others were  making nasty jokes about her appearance.  IIRC, there was a vulgar sexual slant to the (artificially created) jokes, as well.  And Philip played that tape to Martha. It was crucial to persuading her to take spying actions "against" her own office. 

I totally disagree. Martha was already bugging the office when Philip played that tape. The tape put her back on track when she wavered over that, but she is the one who destroyed their trust, not the other way around. What has she done to earn them treating her kindly? She's betrayed them, put their agents at risk, Gene was killed to protect her. The minute she put that pen in Gaad's office she knew she'd betrayed them, even if she originally believed (or told herself she believed) that she was doing it for the CIA. And I think she liked betraying them not because she yet had heard a tape where it appeared them were having a misogynist, mean conversation about her, but because maybe she already felt like they felt that way about her and she loved that she was secretly a romantic heroine working against them with her hot lover.

[Clanstarling]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I believe it's the exact opposite. We in the US would say Soviet Union or Russia interchangeably. They would refer to themselves as being from the Soviet Union (but could also refer to Russia in circumstances where they were referring to just that part of it or whatever). Elizabeth and Philip have used Russia to refer to the country when speaking to Americans in English. They're picking up the US usage imo. When Elizabeth tells Betty she's from Russia I think she pauses before she says it, maybe both because she's deciding to tell the truth and also because she's considering which word to use. When Paige asks where they're from she says The Soviet Union. Oleg, iirc refers to it as "the Union" at one point.

I believe the soviet acronym is CCCP (those of you with more intimate knowledge, please clarify). USSR is based on the translation. Of course, since I was raised in the military, I've always used USSR, which may have shaded my opinion just a bit.

[sistermagpie]

14 minutes ago, clanstarling said:

I believe the soviet acronym is CCCP (those of you with more intimate knowledge, please clarify). USSR is based on the translation. Of course, since I was raised in the military, I've always used USSR, which may have shaded my opinion just a bit.

Yes, CCCP or I guess SSSR in English. I mean they'd refer to themselves as being from what we would call the USSR.

[snarktini]

28 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, I don't understand this idea of living in Russia being like living in hell. In Martha's case, yes, I think it's very true. Not because nobody could move to Russia and be happy but because she herself has very little motivation to do the work involved in making the transition. She didn't choose the place, she'll be completely alone, has never had any interest in learning another language, has no one there she particularly even wants to talk to, doesn't seem to be very socially skilled to begin with. Plenty of immigrants never do learn the language of their new country. Someone who's as depressed as Martha probably will be might not be able to make the effort. Any language is hard to learn, and Russian is harder than many for English speakers.

But for Philip and Elizabeth? They would not see living in Russia as any kind of barrier to a happy life. Any barrier to happiness would come from outside forces, like being separated from their children. This season America is the land of duty and Russia is the land of freedom for Philip and Elizabeth.

Thank you, this is what I meant by the prospect of life in Russia being miserable. Not that all life there was necessarily miserable, but her life likely would be for all of those reasons and more. Maybe if the KGB supported her financially and helped her adapt there's hope. But that's a long shot, and to live there as an American in exile with no preparation or intent? Yikes.

[Clanstarling]

26 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, CCCP or I guess SSSR in English. I mean they'd refer to themselves as being from what we would call the USSR.

Ah, hence my confusion, since I was talking about how Americans referred to the USSR.

Quote

We referred to it as the USSR. I imagine within the USSR people referred to it in many ways.

[shura]

I assume Martha wouldn't be expected to fend for herself once she is in Russia. She'd probably get a Snowden kind of arrangement, living somewhere in seclusion with her expenses paid. She'd still be miserable, for sure, but at least she wouldn't have to, I don't know, go and get a factory job to support herself, or deal with "American-hating" neighbors in a communal kitchen.

The KGB wouldn't want to have her walking around freely anyway. Maybe there weren't the CIA "illegals" around in reality, but the propaganda and popular culture sure had them crawling out of every hole inside the Soviet Union plotting all kinds of terrible things.  I don't think the KGB people were immune to that. They'd probably think American spies are everywhere, too, and are out to kidnap Martha at the first opportunity.

Edited April 29, 2016 by shura
misspellings

[Chaos Theory]

Martha living in Moscow might actually work out well for her in theory.  She would be going there "A hero".  If Philip was vague on her part in the operation then the Russians could think they got a major player.  I could see Martha doing the Russian version of what that Russian lady who came over in the crate did.  Speaking tours and fanfare.  For Martha this is the least invisible she has ever been and she might LIKE the  attention.  

[gunderda]

My favorite part was when Gaad was in disbelief that not only were the KGB just dating her.. but that they MARRIED her.  

And his comment "was she that lonely"   you think Gaad?? No one paid one second of attention to her.  

 

I also would choose turning myself in and going to prison in the US before being carted off to Russia.  However she had Phillip telling her how 'wonderful' it would be.

IF she makes it to Russia I hope we do get to see her experience.  

Also does anyone know if it were possible for someone like Martha to eventually come back to the US?  Many years later of course.

[Umbelina]

"No one was homeless, everyone had health care," etc.

In the 80's I personally knew the parents of former University Physics Professors.  The moment their parents (elderly, also former scientists) got out of the USSR during the limited Jewish release program, suddenly their children and their spouses had no jobs.  They went home to their apartment, and not only were new people living there, every single thing they owned was gone, including every bit of their clothing that wasn't on their backs.  Jobless, they became "parasites" on society.  Friends sheltered them when they could, for a time, at great personal risk.  It was winter soon, and Moscow winters are brutal, and one couple had a young baby.  They had nothing.  Every package sent by their parents was returned as contraband.  Their parents were terrified to even speak to the embassy in San Fransisco.  I ended up negotiating with them on exactly what clothing or food COULD be sent.  They would pretend to speak no English, so I spoke enough Russian to keep insisting (with the father's help.) 

The year before the Soviet Union collapsed another friend's father had to have heart surgery, it was performed without even an aspirin.  They gave him vodka.  This was in the Ukraine.  This man was a former doctor, as was his wife, also suddenly "without jobs" after their son escaped from a Russian medical conference in NYC (with his parent's blessing.)  They had NOTHING.  The doctors had no medicine to give anyone, so folk remedies were used, even in major hospitals.  His father died on the operating table, and it was a simple operation to save his life, if they'd had the equipment and proper anesthetics and medicines. 

I admit, I also expected resolve of Martha's story by now, but only because this show usually moves so fast during these times.  I'm really glad they've slowed down for this on though, because every moment of it has been so raw, and so real, and honestly it's only been a day. 

I liked watching the FBI do their thing, and the emotions between Philip, Elizabeth, and Martha play out.  She deserves more than a quick resolve, and I still don't know what will happen with her.  I liked watching Oleg as well, and the KGB scramble.  I am positive there will be consequences for Philip, for Gabe, for Gaad, and obviously, no matter which way it plays out, for Martha.  I can't wait.

So, no it wasn't all rosy there.  It's funny, my friend was happy after the collapse, but he told me back then that it wouldn't take long for another form of totalitarianism to replace what they had.  He told me that "order" existed with that system, that the Russians had no real experience with freedom or with not having big brother to make their decisions, and that whomever eventually filled that vacuum would be worse than they had.  He predicted a Putin decades ago, and I foolishly argued with him.  He predicted that as bad as they were, people would miss "the good old days" and some do. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, kikaha said:

Philby lived in the USSR till 1988: the same time Martha would be there, if she indeed makes it. 

This whole Martha plotline never made sense to me.  Would the KGB really put so much at risk -- two of its top agents, their handlers, everything they know -- just to save a secretary whose cover is blown?  Especially when a much quicker, more reliable and permanent solution exists?  I didn't realize the KGB  had such a kinder/gentler side to it. 

I always thought I saw romantic sparks between Tatiana and Oleg.  Now that Nina is gone, it won't surprise me to see those two pair up. 

Again, as many have said, Martha isn't a mere "secretary."  She was secretary to the top counter-intelligence officer in the DC office of the FBI.  She had access to everything.  She knows many, many things, and many secrets as well.  They will bleed her dry of information, both operational and personal, about the FBI.  Where does Agent A buy his shoes?  When did Agent B begin having marriage problems?  Is Agent C's wife simply a drunk at parties or do you suspect a larger problem?  What does Agent D usually have for lunch, and where does he buy it?  Diagram for us the exact layout of this office.  How is information shared between E and F?  Which agents seem discontented?  On and on and on.  She is a gold mine for them.

[sistermagpie]

38 minutes ago, gunderda said:

I also would choose turning myself in and going to prison in the US before being carted off to Russia.  However she had Phillip telling her how 'wonderful' it would be.

That didn't really figure into her decision imo. He's telling her this literally at the last minute when it's all arranged and she's come back to the safe house. And mostly what she's processing is that Clark isn't going to be with her, but people will know she sacrificed everything for him.

[maczero]

2 hours ago, Darren said:

One nitpick I have: I've been expecting that the one time when Martha would REALLY LOSE IT is when she realizes Clark's love isn't real. That's the one thing that's led her to betray everything and everyone else in her life. The moment she realized that she should have hit the roof. I was actually looking forward to (and simultaneously cringing about) that scene - and in the end it was kind of anti-climatic in an episode that was otherwise, truly amazing. Maybe she's going to hit the roof next time out. Maybe it is shock right now that's keeping her somewhat subdued. We shall see.

That bugs me too.  I've heard love is blind but in Martha's case it's blind, deaf and stupid.  And even if she believes Philip loves her, there still should be a whole lot of resentment towards him yet she doesn't show it.

Quote

 

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

 

[Moose135]

45 minutes ago, gunderda said:

Also does anyone know if it were possible for someone like Martha to eventually come back to the US?  Many years later of course.

I doubt it - even after the Soviet Union collapsed, she would be a wanted criminal in the United States.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, CCCP or I guess SSSR in English. I mean they'd refer to themselves as being from what we would call the USSR.

It's weird, I've lost so much of the Russian I used to understand (a bit) and speak (a bit) from school, but I still think of it as the CCCP (SSSR with a slightly trilled R.)  I didn't know any loyal communists though, only people who escaped or were released, and they missed Russia, not the Soviet Union. 

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

Martha living in Moscow might actually work out well for her in theory.  She would be going there "A hero".  If Philip was vague on her part in the operation then the Russians could think they got a major player.  I could see Martha doing the Russian version of what that Russian lady who came over in the crate did.  Speaking tours and fanfare.  For Martha this is the least invisible she has ever been and she might LIKE the  attention.  

I don't.  I not only don't think they will think of her as a "hero" but a fool, but also, how would she do speaking engagements?  It will take her quite a while to speak passable Russian, even if it's spelled out for her phonetically, and they certainly wouldn't allow her to take any questions, unless they already gave her the answers.  She's nobody.  She's valuable because she has a tremendous amount of information.  She'll be bled dry of that in whatever way it takes.  If she freely cooperates in further betraying her country to strangers, she'll live a miserable but somewhat comfortable life.  If she resists or isn't forthcoming?  She'll be subjected to interrogation methods that ensure she tells them everything.  Philip's been gone a LONG time, and he wasn't really involved in day to day Russian life since he was a teenager and being trained.

53 minutes ago, gunderda said:

My favorite part was when Gaad was in disbelief that not only were the KGB just dating her.. but that they MARRIED her.  

And his comment "was she that lonely"   you think Gaad?? No one paid one second of attention to her.  

 

I also would choose turning myself in and going to prison in the US before being carted off to Russia.  However she had Phillip telling her how 'wonderful' it would be.

IF she makes it to Russia I hope we do get to see her experience.  

Also does anyone know if it were possible for someone like Martha to eventually come back to the US?  Many years later of course.

4 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

I doubt it - even after the Soviet Union collapsed, she would be a wanted criminal in the United States.

I'm terrified of prison.  I'd go to Russia too and make the best of it, hoping for a time when things would get better. 

I was shocked that marriage certificate was actually filed!  It was filed right?  Or did they just find that (faked) copy in her apartment?  I'm confused about that.

I really hope we see Martha in Russia as well, there is just so much to mine there!  We may not, but I really hope we do. 

Yes, she will always be a wanted criminal and traitor in the USA, but if she plays her cards right, she might be able to leave Russia, or at least Moscow, after they've learned all they can from her, which honestly, they will sooner or later, so she might as well tell them everything they want to know and play along.  Is she smart enough to realize that?  Is she a survivor deep inside?  Probably not.

[kikaha]

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Again, as many have said, Martha isn't a mere "secretary."  She was secretary to the top counter-intelligence officer in the DC office of the FBI.  She had access to everything.  She knows many, many things, and many secrets as well.  They will bleed her dry of information, both operational and personal, about the FBI.  Where does Agent A buy his shoes?  When did Agent B begin having marriage problems?  Is Agent C's wife simply a drunk at parties or do you suspect a larger problem?  What does Agent D usually have for lunch, and where does he buy it?  Diagram for us the exact layout of this office.  How is information shared between E and F?  Which agents seem discontented?  On and on and on.  She is a gold mine for them.

See, my sense is that her days of being a gold mine to the KGB are over.  Her main value was in planting the bug.  I doubt she has much real info now, and the KGB has to wonder how accurate any info she gives them from here on is (intentionally or not on her part ).   

Meanwhile she poses a huge risk to one of their most important operations in the world. 

i.e. the risk/reward now seems to me heavily weighted towards risk.  But then I have believed that from the moment the FBI found the bug.   

[gunderda]

34 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That didn't really figure into her decision imo. He's telling her this literally at the last minute when it's all arranged and she's come back to the safe house. And mostly what she's processing is that Clark isn't going to be with her, but people will know she sacrificed everything for him.

oh yea, I forgot he told her that AFTER she ran away lol 

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

I didn't know any loyal communists though, only people who escaped or were released, and they missed Russia, not the Soviet Union. 

I would bet that they did that on purpose, though. I'm not speaking as any expert, but I think before someone said that they'd have been taught to refer to it as the CCCP--so I imagine it would say something about the person that they called it Russia. Like a shibboleth. Seems very handy, actually, a good way of saying you love your home but hate the government. So KGB would probably be careful to say CCCP no matter what they thought of it as in private.

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She'll be subjected to interrogation methods that ensure she tells them everything.  Philip's been gone a LONG time, and he wasn't really involved in day to day Russian life since he was a teenager and being trained.

And it's not like he's even thinking that far ahead, imo. He's trying to protect her from prison and can only see that in Russia she's not a criminal for doing this. I suspect he's letting his own feelings about things cloud his judgment and just imagines her being given a quiet space to exist. Even when he's telling her she's going to be honored I don't think he's imagining her being feted or anything. Just more like...they appreciate what you've done. He almost has to hold onto that feeling of appreciation since it's directed his own life as well.

Also, most of the people Philip deals with kind of do feel that way, come to think of it. I mean, they're not all big patriots who think the Soviets are always awesome by any means, but the people he deals with are the soldiers on the ground who feel loyalty and protection for each other as soldiers do. It's really Philip and people like him who most appreciate assets like Martha, even if she was duped. The government back home doesn't appreciate her the way they could...just as they don't appreciate Philip and Elizabeth themselves the way other Illegals do.

8 minutes ago, kikaha said:

See, my sense is that her days of being a gold mine to the KGB are over.  Her main value was in planting the bug.  I doubt she has much real info now, and the KGB has to wonder how accurate any info she gives them from here on is (intentionally or not on her part ).

I think Umbelina gave really good examples of how she's still a goldmine. It's not just about her being able to plant bugs and copy papers. Philip was working her for perhaps a year before that and the info she was giving him then probably wasn't even that confidential. She could no longer talk about what stuff seemed to be going on in the office day to day now, but she knows these guys and knows how they do things. That's far from nothing. The fact that she was willing to plant a bug was totally a surprise to Philip and not something he even considered before he was facing what he considered an emergency in The Colonel. That's why he went to his own extreme in marrying her.

[mattie0808]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I was shocked that marriage certificate was actually filed!  It was filed right?  Or did they just find that (faked) copy in her apartment?  I'm confused about that.

Oh, I meant to bring this up earlier!!! Gaad said "blood tests and everything" to Stan, right? I'm shocked by that. I assumed that the whole wedding was just straight out faked, and Clark told Martha he'd "take care of" the paperwork, so that nothing real would ever be filed. I know there weren't these easily accessible databases all over the place in the 80s, but for someone like Martha, who should be watched and scrutinized, why would they even risk having the FBI find out she secretly got married?

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, mattie0808 said:

Oh, I meant to bring this up earlier!!! Gaad said "blood tests and everything" to Stan, right? I'm shocked by that. I assumed that the whole wedding was just straight out faked, and Clark told Martha he'd "take care of" the paperwork, so that nothing real would ever be filed. I know there weren't these easily accessible databases all over the place in the 80s, but for someone like Martha, who should be watched and scrutinized, why would they even risk having the FBI find out she secretly got married?

Not only that, he's legally married to Martha.  I suppose Elizabeth would be considered legal as a "common law" wife, but honestly, I have no idea how "common law marriages" work or their legality.  I guess, if they are considered legal there, that would also make Philip a bigamist.  If they aren't, he's actually married to Martha, and he never married Elizabeth.

Although, being a bigamist is the least of Philip's problems right now.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Umbelina said:

have no idea how "common law marriages" work or their legality.  I guess, if they are considered legal there, that would also make Philip a bigamist.  If they aren't, he's actually married to Martha, and he never married Elizabeth.

But he's not Clark Westerfeld and Clark has no connection to Philip Jennings as far as anyone knows. Philip Jennings may actually have paperwork for his marriage to Elizabeth as well, even if they didn't have a ceremony.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Americans Makes Martha Face The Consequences Of Her Many Bad Calls

How long will Martha last on the lam with two Cold War powers in hot pursuit?

[henripootel]

Quote

Exactly. Wasn't Hansen working for the KGB for like 10 years before they figured out it was him. And after they had him head up the department looking for the mole. (Just watched Breach again the other night). 

They never really 'figured out' it was him, they paid a huge bribe for his identity.  Someone in the KGB got a million for his file, and even that wasn't enough to finger Hanssen specifically, but there was an original audio recording of the agent talking.  They listened to and someone said 'holy shit, that's Robert Hanssen!'  This after years and years of clues that the mole was he, including a formal protest from the Soviet rezidentura that an FBI guy had offered his services with an approach in broad daylight, an obviously fake attempt.  It wasn't a fake - it was Hanssen trying to re-establish contact with his soviet handlers.  After they knew it was Hanssen, they realized that they should have caught him a dozen times, but couldn't quite connect the dots.  Beeman and Aderholt did some exemplary work here, catching Martha as quickly as they did.

Quote

I don't know why Philip thinks Martha will be "honored."

I'm pretty sure Philip doesn't really think so.  'Taken care of', sure, but she's a compromised assent rather than a faithful believer.  She'll be squeezed dry for any info she can provide then given a small apartment somewhere, always watched, never trusted.  And frankly she'll be lucky to make it that far.  If anything goes wrong with the exfiltration, shooting Martha will be priority one.  The KGB were famously unromantic about these kinds of issues, and I think the only reason they didn't put a hole in Martha already was that they're worried about losing Philip.  Even so, I'm pretty sure Philip knows exactly how far they'll go to placate him, and he kinda needs to think Martha will be well taken care of in Russia.  Mostly though, he needs her to get on that plane.  I was really surprised and kinda touched that he told her the truth at the end, that he wasn't coming.  Good show, this.

[mattie0808]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Not only that, he's legally married to Martha.  I suppose Elizabeth would be considered legal as a "common law" wife, but honestly, I have no idea how "common law marriages" work or their legality.  I guess, if they are considered legal there, that would also make Philip a bigamist.  If they aren't, he's actually married to Martha, and he never married Elizabeth.

Although, being a bigamist is the least of Philip's problems right now.

I don't think, for U.S. purposes, Phillip is actually "legally" married to anyone. Clark is an entirely fake persona, so that marriage to Martha can't be legal. Elizabeth and Phillip may be common-law spouses because they've been together for so long, but again, given that they are using fake (though long-term) spy personas, whatever documentation they have of their "marriage" can't be legally binding.

I just would have assumed that someone who was so careful not to leave any traces of the marriage anywhere (including in Martha and "Clark's" homes unless they were very easily removable/destroyable) wouldn't have filed a document with the government!

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, henripootel said:

Mostly though, he needs her to get on that plane.  I was really surprised and kinda touched that he told her the truth at the end, that he wasn't coming.  Good show, this.

Maybe he figured that if she freaked out completely at that he would just have to be the one to kill her, so that's why he could tell her the truth.

[henripootel]

Quote

Maybe he figured that if she freaked out completely at that he would just have to be the one to kill her, so that's why he could tell her the truth.

Didn't even think of that - that's cold.  I figured it was just one bit of honest decency from Philip.  I mean he did just compromise her entire life.

[Umbelina]

It's weird.  I know Philip promised to stop lying to Martha during that phone call, but I thought he was a complete IDIOT to tell Martha the truth. 

Elizabeth was right, it would have been kinder to break that news later, not to mention making it a hell of a lot easier to transport her safely to Russia!  Philip's priorities are completely screwed up.  This woman can identify him, Elizabeth, Gabe, and Claudia!  So what does he do to ensure their safety and Martha's cooperation during this tricky ex-filtration?  Takes away all of Martha's hope!  Makes her less likely to cooperate, and much more likely to realize what the KGB will expect of her in Russia.  More betrayal!  For nothing!  No marriage.  No Philip. 

Philip's on the edge in so very many ways, he's a danger as a spy now, unpredictable and stubborn, doing whatever the hell he thinks is right, for Martha, not for the CCCP, and damn the consequences.  Now an American CIA agent would be in deep shit if he was doing what Philip has been doing, and I'm not saying the CIA would be forgiving of that, but it's unlikely we'd just shoot him in the head, unless he presented imminent danger, but he'd damn sure be pulled from the field, and likely dismissed, go run a UHaul franchise somewhere.  The KGB wouldn't hesitate to end Philip, and if he was sent back to Russia in disgrace or defiance?  He won't be running a Cinnabon in Odessa.  He'll be dead, or in a Gulag.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, henripootel said:

Didn't even think of that - that's cold.  I figured it was just one bit of honest decency from Philip.  I mean he did just compromise her entire life.

I think it was that--I just mean that he figured if there was bad fallout to his honesty and decency there he'd be the one to have to deal with it, since it was his responsibility. So really the opposite of cold.

Edited April 29, 2016 by sistermagpie

[bad things are bad]

Quote

The KGB wouldn't want to have her walking around freely anyway. 

No, they'd need to watch her every second. US agents in Russia would be looking for her, and she'd be able to ID too many KGB people to allow that possibility.

The idea of an adult English speaker learning Russian is not really plausible either, as you lose your ability to acquire language as you get older. And Russian is too different from English. I can't see the KGB bothering to take on the task of babysitting her for any length of time. 

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, bad things are bad said:

The idea of an adult English speaker learning Russian is not really plausible either, as you lose your ability to acquire language as you get older. And Russian is too different from English. 

No, that's a myth. (Or at least something that linguists I think once believed but is not actually true.) You can learn a language at any age, and adults learn more quickly than children. It just seems like children have a magical ability because they have advantages in the way they learn that adults don't. (And they do have some actual brain advantages, but not that much.)

But that doesn't mean Martha could learn it. I always kinda want to check in on Stan's Russian studies, actually. They had him going 6 days a week but it doesn't seem like anybody in his department really knows Russian at all. Sticking someone in a class is no guarantee they'll learn anything even after many years.

Edited April 29, 2016 by sistermagpie

[kay1864]

23 hours ago, Umbelina said:

In real life though, the FBI, CIA, MI5&6 ALL had serious moles that went undetected for years and years.  The KGB really did have an illegals program, and those spies lived quite a while here. 

True!  

However from what little I've read, they produced little actionable intel and mostly lived nice Americanski lifestyle on the KGB's dime.

[kay1864]

23 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

Maybe the Rezidentura woman arranged a pilot to transport the rat. Looks like many of us are thinking that Martha and the rat will take a ride together.

Good point!  Did Oleg and Tatiana actually say/imply the passenger was a person?  Maybe they were searching for a pilot for the rat?

Quote

When the agents were searching Martha's apartment, they leafed through her scrapbook. Were there photos of Clark in there? Stan was standing a few feet away.

None that were shown on-screen. I imagine Philip was very careful about any photos taken.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, kay1864 said:

Good point!  Did Oleg and Tatiana actually say/imply the passenger was a person?  Maybe they were searching for a pilot for the rat?

I think Tatiana's pilot was clearly for the rat. Oleg doesn't know about the rat. When the whole group talked about the transport they were talking about Martha as explicitly directed by Arkady.

[RedHawk]

2 hours ago, gunderda said:

My favorite part was when Gaad was in disbelief that not only were the KGB just dating her.. but that they MARRIED her.  

And his comment "was she that lonely"   you think Gaad?? No one paid one second of attention to her.  

 

I also would choose turning myself in and going to prison in the US before being carted off to Russia.  However she had Phillip telling her how 'wonderful' it would be.

IF she makes it to Russia I hope we do get to see her experience.  

Also does anyone know if it were possible for someone like Martha to eventually come back to the US?  Many years later of course.

No one paid one second of attention to her? What about Chris Amador? How do we resolve that? I don't remember their dating situation very well, but she was the one who didn't want it, correct? Didn't he turn pushy and thus turn her off? I understand she was still very lonely because you can be lonely for someone who like the real you even when you're dating the "wrong" man. 

[gunderda]

Just now, RedHawk said:

No one paid one second of attention to her? What about Chris Amador? How do we resolve that? I don't remember their dating situation very well, but she was the one who didn't want it, correct? Didn't he turn pushy and thus turn her off? I understand she was still very lonely because you can be lonely for someone who like the real you even when you're dating the "wrong" man. 

You have a good memory because I don't remember her dating anyone. And even a name at that! lol 

Theres been numerous comments about how lonely she was since the beginning of the series.  And when Philip talked about her going to Russia without him she goes "So I'll be alone.... just like before..."   or something like that.  

[RedHawk]

9 minutes ago, gunderda said:

You have a good memory because I don't remember her dating anyone. And even a name at that! lol 

Theres been numerous comments about how lonely she was since the beginning of the series.  And when Philip talked about her going to Russia without him she goes "So I'll be alone.... just like before..."   or something like that.  

I'm not disagreeing that she felt alone. Chris Amador was Stan's colleague/friend/partner at the FBI when the show began. Clark killed him in the first season when Amador started watching Martha because he had been rejected and suspected she was seeing another guy, although he had no idea the other guy was KGB. Amador was shown to be something of an asshole and when it was over turned stalkerish, so the relationship with Amador was not one that made Martha happy, and I think she wisely ended it. But the idea that no one in the department paid any attention to her isn't quite true, either. 

[kay1864]

22 hours ago, gwhh said:

I think Elizabeth had something in her pocket (gun or knife) and used that to hit Martha.  If you notice Elizabeth had her hand in her pocket the whole time she was talking to Martha and than took it out and hit her with her hand and used something in her pocket as a blunt object. 

Anyone else wonder if E hit Martha just a bit harder than necessary?  It really rankled her last season when Martha was talking about what an animal Clark was in bed.

[Moose135]

55 minutes ago, bad things are bad said:

The idea of an adult English speaker learning Russian is not really plausible either, as you lose your ability to acquire language as you get older. And Russian is too different from English.

When I worked at the newspaper back home on Long Island, one of our advertising sales guys spoke fluent Russian - he had been an Air Force intelligence analyst, and had gone to a military language school.

[sistermagpie]

27 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

No one paid one second of attention to her? What about Chris Amador? How do we resolve that? I don't remember their dating situation very well, but she was the one who didn't want it, correct? Didn't he turn pushy and thus turn her off? I understand she was still very lonely because you can be lonely for someone who like the real you even when you're dating the "wrong" man. 

Yeah, she went out with him, and when we met her she had broken up with him (he seemed to be a cheater) and he was trying to get her back.

But even without him I don't think it's fair to say nobody paid attention to her. They paid the normal attention to her that you'd pay someone in your office, I'd think. There were plenty of times when Stan said something to her. Aderholdt seemed very interested and attentive to her when he showed up--I thought he was interested. It was true she didn't seem to get a lot of respect since nobody listened to her about leaving confidential files on the Mail Robot (files she started bringing home to Clark just to drive the point home) but the seemed to give her the same amount of attention anybody would expect at work in her job. Gaad even kept her on instead of bringing in his old secretary.

I remember at the time some people criticized her coworkers for not treating her as an equal but it seemed off to me because she wasn't an equal. They were agents and she was support staff, so of course they didn't discuss that stuff the same way. Being the support staff can certainly suck and you can feel like people take you for granted, but I don't think Martha's coworkers were particularly bad to her or that she didn't get emotional support there you'd expect her to get.

[kay1864]

19 hours ago, gwhh said:

 

Edited April 29, 2016 by kay1864
Arrgh. Forum doesn't allow me to discard a post once started!

[Umbelina]

Apparently 3 out of 4 women who were seduced and/or married by KGB agents (some with kids!) killed themselves.  There are a couple of articles in the Media thread about it.

No Martha!  Don't do it!

[kay1864]

20 hours ago, millennium said:

What Philip did to Martha was worse than killing her.   He destroyed her.   He destroyed all her hopes, her future, he destroyed her family, he laid waste to her past (poignantly represented by Martha's photo album), he murdered her reputation as a good American, he crushed her soul.   

I would argue that although he effectively did all those things, I don't think he set out to.  He hoped to string her along as long as possible, trading his affections for FBI intel.  But once the bug was discovered...Martha's fate was all but sealed.  Sad that she is now backed into such a horrible corner.

I like that at the end he chose not to lie to her, just to "give her hope to get her on the plane" as E suggested.  He definitely cares for her and I thought his sorrow was genuine when telling her the truth about her future.

[Umbelina]

kay1864 I just hit escape when that happens, because yeah, you can't delete once it's there.

I just thought of another thing the KGB can ask Martha about, other lonely women in that office. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Umbelina

[kay1864]

18 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I don't know why Philip thinks Martha will be "honored."  She's a dupe, conned into thinking she's in love, probably more pathetic to the powers that be over there than someone who was bribed, or blackmailed, or shared the ideology.  If she makes it, I picture her closely watched, in a regular apartment and many/most shared kitchens and bathrooms with other people.  She'll miss her comforts and the variety of food, and simple things like face cream or Valium or soft sheets, or to pick up the phone and call someone, or enough toilet paper.  The winters will shock her, the inability to simply be free will wear her down.  Even having that much though?  Will depend on her selling out everyone in the FBI she ever met, and not for Philip, for the scary commies she's been raised to fear. 

Thinking about it more?  I don't think she would last very long.

If she makes it to the USSR, before long she will likely find a bridge (or other method).

Am I the only one who saw her on the bridge and thought "HFS THEY'RE KILLING OFF MARTHA!"?

(Ok I might have actually said it out loud)

[AliShibaz]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

kay1864 I just hit escape when that happens, because yeah, you can't delete once it's there.

I just thought of another thing the KGB can ask Martha about, other lonely women in that office. 

I would guess that Martha's story would have to be a fairly common occurrence in the history of secret KGB agents in America. There must be many people who have waited all their lives to meet that "special someone" who would love them forever and make them feel complete. The would get married and have children and grandchildren and then live happily ever after. Isn't that a part of the American dream after all? I'm guessing that it must be.

How sad to think that many people can be exploited by having an agent lie to them and make them believe that true love has finally found a way into their hearts.

When people keep referring to a "Poor Martha" episode, it just ain't for nothing. Sad to say. Very sad to say. but it's also very true.

I do not believe it is much more applicable to one gender over the other. IMHO, both genders are equally vulnerable to this kind of con.

[henripootel]

Quote

I think it was that--I just mean that he figured if there was bad fallout to his honesty and decency there he'd be the one to have to deal with it, since it was his responsibility. So really the opposite of cold.

Ah.  I thought you were implying that the 'bad fallout' Clark might have to deal with was Martha refusing to go.  If so, Clark would have to deal with it, by killing Martha.  That's why I said 'cold'.  I mean I guess it'd mean something to be killed by someone who cares for you, but not much. And I'm pretty sure that's her choices as far as the KGB are concerned.  She's seen too many agents so it's the plane or the gun.

In truth, I wonder why Martha didn't try to make a deal.  She does have something to bargain - full cooperation and help identifying the several illegals she's met, in exchange for immunity and a job in Omaha.  I don't see the FBI being all that excited about putting her on trial, and they might get a huge bonanza to offset their inexcusable lapse in security.  I bet they'd make that deal. 

Upon reflection, it's such an obvious deal I'm surprised Gabriel didn't assume Martha had made it, and told Elizabeth 'your first priority is to put a round through Martha's head.  Your second, if you can't escape, is to put another through your own'.  Martha just knows too much to pussyfoot around here.

Edited April 29, 2016 by henripootel

[stagmania]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, she went out with him, and when we met her she had broken up with him (he seemed to be a cheater) and he was trying to get her back.

But even without him I don't think it's fair to say nobody paid attention to her. They paid the normal attention to her that you'd pay someone in your office, I'd think. There were plenty of times when Stan said something to her. Aderholdt seemed very interested and attentive to her when he showed up--I thought he was interested. It was true she didn't seem to get a lot of respect since nobody listened to her about leaving confidential files on the Mail Robot (files she started bringing home to Clark just to drive the point home) but the seemed to give her the same amount of attention anybody would expect at work in her job. Gaad even kept her on instead of bringing in his old secretary.

I remember at the time some people criticized her coworkers for not treating her as an equal but it seemed off to me because she wasn't an equal. They were agents and she was support staff, so of course they didn't discuss that stuff the same way. Being the support staff can certainly suck and you can feel like people take you for granted, but I don't think Martha's coworkers were particularly bad to her or that she didn't get emotional support there you'd expect her to get.

Agreed with all of this. I don't really understand this idea that Martha's coworkers were at fault for her betrayal because they didn't pay enough attention to her. They were her colleagues, not her family or best friends, and they're not responsible for her emotional fulfillment. And as has already been pointed out above, a couple of the guys in the office expressed interest in dating her, and we know she was friendly with others as well.

I also think it's important to recognize that Martha made her choices, with increasingly deep knowledge of what she was actually involved in. Yes, Phillip lied to her and manipulated her, but she knew that what she was doing was wrong. She ignored her instincts and then pushed aside the full reality of her situation because she cared more about being in love and hanging on to her relationship than she did about doing the right thing. I understand why she made those choices (to a point), and certainly feel a lot of empathy for her, but I still hold her accountable for her actions. Part of me thought that when she ran away at the safe house, it was because she finally came to her senses and decided to turn herself in; but instead she came right back for "Clark" and tried to continue the fantasy of running away together, knowing full well who he really was and the extent of what she'd done. As much as I feel for her, I also think she's made a lot of terrible choices, and she shares the blame in whatever ultimately happens to her as a result.

[AliShibaz]

It's very difficult for me to disagree with hardly anyone here. It's very difficult to find fault with Martha.

Part of the reason is when you examine "Clark", on the surface, it is just so very difficult to believe he could ever be KGB. I think most all of us have an idea of just what a KGB officer would be like. They would look a lot like Satan - with horns and bad breath and terrible manners and a very evil disposition.

If you meet someone who is ostensibly kind and gentle, it's gonna be almost impossible to accept the fact they could ever be KGB. So, although I have to agree that Martha surely knew that what she was doing was wrong, it's just so hard to blame her for falling for Clark because he is just nothing like a typical view of a KGB officer. Martha was put into a terribly, terribly difficult position. I have nothing but sympathy for her.

In other words, ... Poor Martha!

Edited April 29, 2016 by AliShibaz

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, henripootel said:

Ah.  I thought you were implying that the 'bad fallout' Clark might have to deal with was Martha refusing to go.  If so, Clark would have to deal with it, by killing Martha.  That's why I said 'cold'.

I did mean that! I'm not explaining myself well. :-) I meant that okay, Clark needs her to get on the plane. But he also thinks she deserves the truth, because that's the decent way to treat her. He doesn't want to trick her cruelly one more time and leave her waiting for him in Russia and slowly realizing he's never ever coming back--meanwhile she continues to not make a life for herself because he's given her a false hope that she has one with him. (Why am I suddenly thinking of those Russia dogs shot into space...?) 

So he makes the decision to tell her the truth rather than lie to make her more docile like Elizabeth suggests. But of course when he does that he risks her refusing to get on the plane or freaking out and trying to run. And if she does that she'll have to be killed. But he figures he'll take that risk in order to do the decent thing and treat her with respect. If she does freak out she'll have to be killed and he knows that and he'll have to deal with it. But he maybe feels that if somebody is going to have to murder Martha in that case it should be him because it's all his doing anyway. 

So it's cold because...he's taking a chance he might have to kill her. But it's not cold because he doesn't want to kill her. He's choosing to not make it easy on himself by lying to her (which is cruel to her)--even though the risk he's taking is that he'll have to do something even worse by killing her and then live with it.

1 hour ago, henripootel said:

In truth, I wonder why Martha didn't try to make a deal.  She does have something to bargain - full cooperation and help identifying the several illegals she's met, in exchange for immunity and a job in Omaha.  I don't see the FBI being all that excited about putting her on trial, and they might get a huge bonanza to offset their inexcusable lapse in security.  I bet they'd make that deal. 

 

43 minutes ago, stagmania said:

As much as I feel for her, I also think she's made a lot of terrible choices, and she shares the blame in whatever ultimately happens to her as a result.

Yeah, while Martha was indeed duped and manipulated, I think it's also important that every time she got more information she made the same choice. Granted she was already deeper in at each level, but that was partly due to her choice as well. When she got the clearest truth of Clark actually saying out loud she was working for the KGB (a truth she didn't want to hear but surely knew was likely--and honestly, spying for someone else isn't okay either) she still said it was okay. 

The one truth she has as yet never heard is the one that probably would have put her off--the truth that Clark not only does love her as much as she loves him, but is deeply in love with someone else and has a family and kids that are his priority. Up until the end she was far more focused on her romance than anything else. She's been very consistently tragic throughout. Had Clark been real she'd have been Bonnie to his Clyde, the anti-heroine of an espionage thriller. What makes her Poor Martha is that she's not Bonnie.