The Star Wars Saga

[Athena]

I am bumping this thread up and marked it with a Spoilers tag because of the release of TFA.

 

Please use this thread to discuss any speculation, news, developments, etc. on other movies in this universe in addition to continue talking about TFA itself in the main movie thread.

 

Starting things off: Daisy Ridley has read the Episode VIII script and gushes about Felicity Jones of Rogue One.

[Ronin Jackson]

For all of you who care what I think (Hello!?... Echo!... echo.. echo) here's my newly updated ranking of the Star Wars films.

 

1) The Empire Strikes Back

2) Star Wars (or A New Hope, for those who might be confused by the original title reference)

 

This is how I felt about the top two, far and away in a separate category than the other films before I saw The Force Awakens. That hasn't changed after seeing it.

 

3) The Force Awakens

4) Return of the Jedi

 

This could change over time, but right now I feel the stronger characterizations and acting put The Force Awakens on top. They are both derivative of the original Star Wars film and that's the biggest problem with The Force Awakens... but some of the actors really seemed like they were mailing it in during Return of the Jedi. But Return of the Jedi also had the conclusion of the Luke/Vader story which was well done and The Force Awakens doesn't feel like it has any iconic moments along those lines. But time will tell... 

 

5) Revenge of the Sith

6) The Phantom Menace

7) Attack of the Clones

 

I'm ranking The Phantom Menace above Attack of the Clones largely on account of Darth Maul, who was more of a success as a villain than Jar Jar was a failure as a comic relief side-kick. Attack of the Clones had nothing that really worked particularly well. The dippy flat romance between Anakin and Padme was probably the single biggest flaw of  the prequels. That needed to work better... but Lucas was hopelessly incapable of making it work. But still he can make heroes and villains work, and for some moments in The Phantom Menace (particularly the three way "Duel of the Fates" battle), it did.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Ronin Jackson

[thuganomics85]

That's actually kind of where I'm at, honestly.  Empire Strikes Back will always be my favorite, followed by A New Hope, but I think I will put The Force Awakens above Return of Jedi, although I might need to see it a few more times to make it official.  But I think the way they introduced the new characters is enough to make me rank it slightly above the "ending" of the original trilogy.  Time will tell, I guess.

 

After that, it is a massive drop, and then I will probably put Revenge of the Sith next by default.  As for the bottom two, I will give Phantom Menace a slight "edge", due to Darth Maul and Liam Neeson's presence.  Attack of the Clones was just stupid and dull, and that is probably a bigger offense then the major, major flaws of Phantom (Jar Jar Binks, "Yippie!!", etc.)

[absnow54]

I could not agree more with your ranking. The only thing Attack of the Clones had going for it was the battle between Yoda and Count Dooku, but then they played the card again in Revenge of the Sith with Yoda and Palpetine, otherwise it's almost un-watchable. At least Phantom Menace had pod racing and Darth Maul. Clones had sexy sand.

[Morrigan2575]

Oh hey, I love ranking the movies.

Empire Strikes Back remains my favorite

A New Hope is a close second

The Force Awakens has moved into 3rd.

Return of the Jedi - Ewoks ruin everything

Revenge of the Sith - best of the prequels

Attack of the Clones - I've blocked out the dumb romance crap.

Phantom Menace - JarJar ruins everything.

I only put Clones above Phantom Menace because of Jimmy Smitts as Bael Organa...I actually remember my excitement when I figured that out in the movie theater.

PM did have Darth Maul but he died liked a tattoo little b!tch so I have to take points off.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Last Time Lord]

Return of the Jedi - Ewoks ruin everything

Ewoks were the reason I got into Star Wars in the first place.

I loooooved the Ewok movies that played all the damn time on the Disney Channel.

Though considering my personal rankings of the movies, you may find your belief that Ewoks ruin everything especially true.

I'm only on my 15 minute break, so I'll have to do that another time.

[Ronin Jackson]

Jar Jar is awful, I mean, I'm not questioning that. That tends to get emphasized more in the overall reception of The Phantom Menace over how effective a villain Darth Maul was. I'd say Darth Maul was the most efficient villain in the entire Star Wars saga, and he only appeared in The Phantom Menace. That accounts for something I think. He was effective pretty much his entire time on the screen. I'm inclined to feel it may have been a mistake to kill him off so early, but then again, that's part of what made him so efficient. I guess I like to focus more on what I like about films and I liked more about The Phantom Menace than I did Attack of the Clones.

[Last Time Lord]

This may seem weird, but I really wish Revenge Of The Sith was episode I's title ,simply for the bookends of the titles.

Beginning with the Sith's revenge, and ending with the Jedi's return.

I don't care what the titles say, Force Awakens was Episode I of a brand new saga.

[benteen]

I think Count Dooku was a much better villain than Darth Maul.

[Joe]

As an actual character, sure. But Maul had the cooler look.

[Last Time Lord]

This is actually one thing I really like about I-III opposed to IV-VI.

The Villain cast is much more varied. Sidious, Maul, Dooku, General Grevious, even Nute Gunray to an extent.

I personally found all of them to add something special to their movies, however brief some of them ended up being.

[absnow54]

I think the prequel suffered from too many villains. I think it would have been more interesting to keep Darth Maul as Sidiou's mysteries henchmen and give Count Dooku an ambiguous allegiance. His backstory as a Jedi deserter with differing ideology and ties to Qui Gon was really intriguing, and a great way to carry out the conflict within the Jedi order. I don't think Qui Gon would have ever turned to the Dark Side, but I could see him telling the Jedi Council to suck it (he actually did in the Phantom Menace) to study the Force uninhibited. I don't necessarily know how that would fit into the story of the prequels, but a divide among the Jedi, even if they're all on some version of the "good side," would make them easier to wipe out.

 

The whole Trade Federation plot basically whittled down to "We did it because some guy in a cape told us to..." (maybe there was some other explanation, but I was never interested enough to absorb it) so they were worthless waste of time villains to me.

[Danny Franks]

Yeah, you know, I don't think Jar Jar is as bad as the abysmally written 'romance' in Attack of the Clones. Sure, he's annoying and stupid and a terrible idea, but he is just a joke character. He's there to get little kids to laugh. Anakin/Padme was supposed to be taken seriously, it's supposed to be the core tension that will cause everything to go wrong... and it sucks. They have no chemistry, the writing is terrible, Anakin comes off as a crazy person, and Padme as an enabler. It goes from extreme melodrama to utter schmaltz, and there is absolutely nothing redeeming about it. So Clones is the worst movie, for me.

 

1. Empire Strikes Back

2. A New Hope

3. The Force Awakens

4. Return of the Jedi

5. The Phantom Menace (look, the kid can't act, but he's a kid. I prefer kids who can't act to adults who can't)

6. Revenge of the Sith

7. Attack of the Clones

 

The Force Awakens may move up into second after I see it again. Because while it's very much influenced by A New Hope, the acting and writing is better, and there is more of a sense of fun. It's a more modern picture but still holds to the old fashioned adventure roots of the originals.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Danny Franks

[Spartan Girl]

It's a crying shame that they botched Padme's death the way they did. Natalie was really trying in that scene, and the poignant tenderness in the way that she was stroking baby Luke's cheek was kind of ruined by the fact that she was only dying because she lost the will to live and couldn't suck it up to live for her children.

I so wish that the prequels had gone with the route of Padme surviving childbirth and making the gut-wrenching choice to send the twins away to hide them from the Empire. Natalie could have been amazing doing those scenes.

[Rick Kitchen]

I'm hoping they don't go whitewashing when they cast the Boba Fett movie.

[Joe]

Daniel Logan is nearly 30 these days, and working. Hopefully they'll get him back.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Joe

[InsertWordHere]

I so wish that the prequels had gone with the route of Padme surviving childbirth and making the gut-wrenching choice to send the twins away to hide them from the Empire. Natalie could have been amazing doing those scenes.

I really don't understand why they didn't, since Leia actually says in RotJ that she remembers their mother. They could have had her develop an illness and go to Alderaan to recover, only to die when Leia is 3 or 4. All they would need to do is invent some reason as to why she couldn't take Luke with her. 

[Last Time Lord]

Daniel Logan is nearly 30 these days, and working. Hopefully they'll get him back.

How old was he in Attack Of The Clones?

I know I would like to have him back for the continuity, at the very least.

[Joe]

How old was he in Attack Of The Clones?

13 or 14, depending on when his scenes were filmed. Considering makeup, FX, and acting, they could make him look almost any age and in any condition they wanted.

[Last Time Lord]

13 or 14, depending on when his scenes were filmed. Considering makeup, FX, and acting, they could make him look almost any age and in any condition they wanted.

I imagine some CGI would be used to make him look more like Jango because... you know, clone.

[Danny Franks]

They could have all Mandalorians be played by Pacific Islanders, which would give them a distinct look that differentiates them form the rest of the Star Wars universe. Yes, I know Mandalorians aren't technically a race, but they're all supposed to be descended from the same group, so why not?

 

Hey, I smell a role for Dwayne Johnson here....

[Joe]

Oddly, IIRC, most of the Mandos on the Clone Wars were pretty pale and didn't have Kiwi accents. It's animation, Filoni couldn't give them the same skin tone as in the movie? Also, Star Wars is terrible about extrapolating a whole culture from one trait from one character. The one time it wasn't done...

 

And yet, the clones did have the Maori colouring and accents. I wonder it wasn't done for the rest of the population.

[johntfs]

One thing kind of echoes in my head.  "Fear leads to anger.  Anger leads to hate.  Hate leads to the Dark Side."  It's interesting that of all the Sith/Dark Jedi we see, Kylo Ren is the only one who seems particularly angry/fearful.  Neither Vader nor Palpatine seemed angry or fearful.  They mostly seemed interesting in gaining power.  Vader wanted the power to control his life and personal universe.  Palpatine wanted the ability to control, well, everything.

[thuganomics85]

Maybe I really hated the prequels that much, but considering how much I enjoyed The Force Awakens flaws and all, I for one, welcome our new Evil Disney Corporate Overlords.  A lot of their decisions might be based on profit and whatnot, but at least it seems like they're going to make sure the new films avoid things like stilted acting, cringe-worthy dialogue, cartoony visual effects, and stereotypical amphibian aliens, that George Lucas is apparently cool with.  Also, it's not like George himself is innocent in this.  I'm pretty sure things like Jar Jar and what was because he wanted to market a bunch of toys and shove Jar Jar figures, cups, posters, etc. on kids.  Even Darth Maul, who I love, I'm sure George was mainly seeing dollar signs when he created him.  I don't know; I just don' see this as some kind of lone visionary vs. Evil Corp (tm Mr. Robot.)

 

Also, I feel like (in other places), it's being made to look like poor George had his baby taken from him.  Wasn't the sale to Disney fair and square?  I don't remember it being any kind of hostile takeover or anything.  George agreed to $4 billion (I think?), and it was done.  Now, for all I know, sure, maybe Disney was aggressive about it.  Hell, maybe they sent men with baseball bats to his house (dressed as Mickey and Goofy, naturally.)  But I don't understand this new "George is a victim" thing that seems to be going around.  He didn't have to sell.

 

Despite all that, I don't want to act like I think George Lucas is some piece of shit or a phony of any kind.  It was his vision that created this world, its characters, and overall story-lines.  And he did a great job with them.  I will always admire him for giving us things like Han Solo, Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, Chewbacca, the Millennium Falcon, the Death Star, and "May the Force Be With You."  But I think his vision going forward was questionable, and I'm glad someone else is taking a crack at it.  I just feel more optimistic then I did years ago, and that's all I wanted.  And I can't wait for the future adventures of Rey, Finn, Poe, and whoever else might arrive in future films. 

[NumberCruncher]

I don't know...I guess personally I can objectively look at the whole George Lucas vs. Disney thing objectively and say that both have their positives and negatives. I know a lot of fans like to pile on Lucas for some of his decisions in years past but I give the man a lot of deference because without him, the entire SW world wouldn't even exist in the first place. The man is also a pioneer in special effects whose company countless movie makers still use to this day to make their movies look sensational. I can forgive some of his more questionable characters/decisions and I'll come right out and say it--while they aren't as good as 4-6, I didn't outright hate the prequels. They certainly had a few less-than-stellar story choices and acting moments, but they also had some really great effects and casting choices. Could they have been better handled overall? Absolutely, but I think had the juggernaut of original episodes not existed first, they prequels wouldn't have nearly the same level of mockery thrown at them, nor would they have been constrained as much from a plot perspective.

That all being said, I really have no problem with Disney being involved now but that, too, has its drawbacks. Just looking at the unprecedented level of commercialization of the franchise (just go to a store or turn on a TV to see the downright asinine barrage of all things Star Wars) you can see what the franchise really means to Disney. I don't think it's a matter of Disney wanting to protect the product as much as milk as much investor return from it as possible. Episode 7 was going to make movie no matter what--even the much-maligned prequels made obscene amounts of money. The saving grace of TFA was that the people hired by Disney happened to be big enough SW fanboys/fangirls to give the franchise the level of respect it deserved. Let's hope that luck continues.

Edited December 27, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[Ronin Jackson]

The point isn't to look at this in a black and white way, that Disney is evil and George Lucas is a visionary artist that can do no wrong. J.J. Abrams has made the point repeatedly that Kathleen Kennedy and Bob Iger pretty much left him alone to make the movie... I'm skeptical that they didn't at least have a list of stipulations in place before J.J. was signed, but assuming there's at least some truth to that, they deserve credit (no director who has ever worked for Marvel Studios has ever come close to making comments like that,as a counter example). And I don't think George Lucas is that terrific a filmmaker and certainly, lost something as he got older or could depend more on computers. I could even potentially embrace TFA as an outlier, that it ended up being a much more soulful work of entertainment than any of the prequel movies despite the headless corporate nature of the franchise (that it was so derivative and never really managed to do anything to separate itself from being a fan service fan fiction film is my one big reservation from saying that outright). I'm actually fine with someone other than Lucas carrying on the franchise... I mostly wish the arrangement had been Disney or Kathleen Kennedy appointing a single person as the creative head of the franchise, or at least the main trilogy. Instead it's Kathleen Kennedy, who is an accomplished producer and now an executive, who is hiring a kind of rotating musical chairs creative people for different installments.

 

A poster in the main TFA thread criticized those who were questioning Rey's instant Jedi skills because apparently it's obvious there's something about Rey's backstory that will explain that away. But is it that obvious? It's a completely different creative team who introduced Rey and who will be revealing her backstory in follow up installments. You can't really expect any uniformity in the creative vision of the new franchise.

 

That all being said, Rian Johnson is the most unique filmmaker associated with the new series. J.J. Abrams and Colin Trevorrow are professional corporate franchise caretakers. Just based on his past work I'm hopeful that he will do what J.J. wouldn't or couldn't, and do something unique with the universe and have a better answer to "Why more Star Wars" other than "boatloads of cash". Maybe I'm just a salty curmudgeon for expecting a big Hollywood special effects movie to have more of a reason to exist, since they almost never do. But when this whole thing started, it did, and it was George Lucas who made it that way.

[Danny Franks]

Lucas did not do a good job of writing and directing the prequels. It's as simple as that, really. He has always been known as a director who struggled to relate to actors, and it showed clearly in the stiff, unnatural performances of all involved in the prequels. The direction was static and bland, because most of the shooting was done in front of green screens. None of the dynamic action allowed by having large sets and locations. The plotting and narrative ideas were ill-thought out and the dialogue was embarrassingly bad. That's all on Lucas, and while it doesn't make him a bad person, it made him a bad choice to provide the creative direction of the movies.

All Disney did was hire people who know how to make movies, and then let them do their jobs. This idea of Disney as some evil empire is a rather facile one, to me. They're an entertainment company that wants to make as much money as possible, so what? They're good at it because right now they're really good at giving people what they want.

[NumberCruncher]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Disney trying to make as much money as possible, but I reject the notion that they are responsible for somehow restoring the soul to the franchise or saving it from George Lucas because I honestly don't think Disney cared whether TFA was good or not, just that it was going to give them the return they expected from a Star Wars movie. The hands-off approach pretty much affirms that, IMO.

[Ronin Jackson]

BTW, both Lucasfilm and Marvel Studios are subsidiaries of Disney now, and, assuming J.J. is being honest that they had a relatively hands off approach with the Star Wars film, that's a very different approach than the Marvel films have employed. Marvel is now notorious for second guessing and vetoing their filmmakers and making executive creative decisions in service of the "Marvel Cinematic Universe". Of course that hasn't, as far as I can tell, bothered the fans of those films one bit. Regardless, same studio, a different approach. So I don't know that it's so much about Disney keeping their hands off as it is they a difference in how Marvel Studios and the Lucas-less Lucasfilm (which is now run by Kathleen Kennedy) is approaching it. So kudos to Kathleen Kennedy who is very familiar with how vital Steven Spielberg's creative impulses have been to the success of their films... I should probably withhold my skepticism about how the rotating director approach will work until I've seen all the films. This is, I think, a fairly unique approach to a longer form film series, where they essentially planned from the start to have different directors and writers taking on each installment even though supposedly, if the earlier trilogies are any indication, there is an broad narrative arc connecting the three films.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Ronin Jackson

[Last Time Lord]

I recently watched the Clone Wars film for the first time. Rather enjoyed it.

Surprised to discover the late Christopher Lee reprised Dooku for it. No idea if he did the series, as well. I've only seen a few scattered episodes.

It was weird to hear a Hutt speak Basic and not solely Huttese.

One thing that bugged me, though was Anakin needing the translator droid to understand Jabba.

He was raised on Tattooine. He spoke fluent Huttese in The Phantom Menace. I think he also spoke it in Attack Of The Clones, which was only a year or so before the events of this movie, time line wise.

[Danny Franks]

BTW, both Lucasfilm and Marvel Studios are subsidiaries of Disney now, and, assuming J.J. is being honest that they had a relatively hands off approach with the Star Wars film, that's a very different approach than the Marvel films have employed. Marvel is now notorious for second guessing and vetoing their filmmakers and making executive creative decisions in service of the "Marvel Cinematic Universe". Of course that hasn't, as far as I can tell, bothered the fans of those films one bit. Regardless, same studio, a different approach. So I don't know that it's so much about Disney keeping their hands off as it is they a difference in how Marvel Studios and the Lucas-less Lucasfilm (which is now run by Kathleen Kennedy) is approaching it. So kudos to Kathleen Kennedy who is very familiar with how vital Steven Spielberg's creative impulses have been to the success of their films... I should probably withhold my skepticism about how the rotating director approach will work until I've seen all the films. This is, I think, a fairly unique approach to a longer form film series, where they essentially planned from the start to have different directors and writers taking on each installment even though supposedly, if the earlier trilogies are any indication, there is an broad narrative arc connecting the three films.

 

Well, Age of Ultron bothered me. I was very underwhelmed by that movie, and felt it was something of a muddle, trying to do too many things and not really nailing any of them. But the other movies have all been good, and I don't think there was much interference from execs in any of them. At least, not to the detriment of the movies themselves. I guess Age of Ultron got it because it's the flagship, and they knew Whedon wasn't in it for the long haul. Captain America: Civil War will be the best indicator of whether they've learned or are going to commit the same mistakes again. It doesn't look great, so far.

 

As for Star Wars, Kathleen Kennedy seems to be fueled by real passion for the property, and there's no shortage of creative minds who would give their right arm to work on a Star Wars movie. I think that, no matter what Abrams or anyone else says, Lucasfilm knows what the overall narrative arc will be already, but that they're willing to give the individual directors and writers a fair amount of scope in getting there.

 

Abrams and Rian Johnson aren't two guys you hire if you want someone to just point the camera where you tell them and shout 'action'. But I also think they're two guys who respect George Lucas's legacy. The Force Awakens certainly proved that, in the case of Abrams.

[Zuleikha]

Absolutely, but I think had the juggernaut of original episodes not existed first, they prequels wouldn't have nearly the same level of mockery thrown at them, nor would they have been constrained as much from a plot perspective.

I just watched The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. They would have had mockery. They're just bad movies. The political plotlines are incoherent in both of them, and the characters don't make up for it. Also, poor Jake Lloyd was not up to the challenge of being a lead role in a movie. 

 

I think Hayden Christensen's acting gets a bad rap, though. Anakin is written as a creeper, and Hayden commits to playing him as a creeper. But he's not doing bad acting. His line reads, body language, and facial expressions are on target with the character. It's just that the character isn't what it needed to be or what I think anyone expected based on Obi-Wan's comments in the original trilogy. That's all on Lucas, though, who for some reason thought it would be romantic to have Anakin completely obsessed with Padme, including having her comment on how uncomfortable he makes her. Portman's pretty wooden when she's supposed to play Padme as in love with Anakin, but I don't blame her because I'm sure she just couldn't find a way to rationalize Padme's lines or emotions given what had happened prior to that point. Padme should have been ordering the Jedi Council to replace her bodyguard and to keep Anakin away from her at all costs, not making confessions of love.

 

It's a shame that Lucas wasn't up to writing Anakin as a smart, charismatic, ethical person who was too independent for the rigid Jedi Council and who ended up making terrible choices as a result. The bones of a good story are there. The Senate is slow to act, and it did fall under the sway of a Sith lord. The Jedi Council was blind to the danger the Old Republic faced. There's legitimate reasons for Anakin to disagree with the Jedi Council's demands to renounce all attachments and to resent the way he was treated. Falling in love with Padme could have been a great love story and the push to independence. But instead we got petulant, creeper Anakin and Obi-Wan, the worst mentor ever. And seriously? The immaculate conception... what the heck was up with that?

 

A poster in the main TFA thread criticized those who were questioning Rey's instant Jedi skills because apparently it's obvious there's something about Rey's backstory that will explain that away. But is it that obvious?

According to my husband, the lightsaber vision implied that she was being trained at the Jedi Academy as a child. I completely missed that, though. I'm waiting for someone to put her vision up on YouTube or an equivalent so I can go frame by frame because I basically missed everything in it.

[benteen]

I recently watched the Clone Wars film for the first time. Rather enjoyed it.

Surprised to discover the late Christopher Lee reprised Dooku for it. No idea if he did the series, as well. I've only seen a few scattered episodes.

It was weird to hear a Hutt speak Basic and not solely Huttese.

One thing that bugged me, though was Anakin needing the translator droid to understand Jabba.

He was raised on Tattooine. He spoke fluent Huttese in The Phantom Menace. I think he also spoke it in Attack Of The Clones, which was only a year or so before the events of this movie, time line wise.

 

Good catch on the translator droid.  I had forgotten about that.

 

Did you watch any of The Clone Wars animated series?  It's still a show I miss a great deal.

 

Disney has their pros and cons but their meddling does concern me.  Even Joss Whedon, after his success with the first Avengers movie had to deal with Disney meddling while filming Age of Ultron (the nonsensical cave scene being one example).  I understand Disney has a lot invested in these properties  but they are micro-managers too.

Edited December 28, 2015 by benteen

[Hanahope]

Been doing a SW re-watch with my kids before taking them to see TFA.  We did the 'first' trilogy (episodes 4-6) and just did PM last night.  One thing I noticed this time, was the Chancellor saying they'd have an "investigation" of Amadalia's 'accusations' against the Trade Federation, and that slow to act bit was what Palpatine used to finally get Amadalia to ask for a vote of no confidence in the Chancellor.  But didn't the Chancellor already send two Jedi knights, i.e. Qui Jon and Obi Wan to 'negotiate' with the Trade Federation on the blockade, and so why didn't he ask for one of them to come to the Senate to testify as to what happened?  Why send yet another "investigator?"

 

I was doing my best to essentially ignore Jar Jar this time.  My daughters, 8 and 11, were asking me what the heck was up with that character they could barely understand.  Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

[Captain Carrot]

Regarding the Marvel vs. Lucasfilm discussion. I think Disney has had a similar hands off approach to both companies. The current management at Disney seems to be willing to do this as long as they get the right results ($$$). Based on stuff I've read about Marvel, the issues there were with there own executives. Specifically Ike Perlmutter. That's no longer an issue. http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/09/marvel-studios-ike-perlmutter-kevin-feige

 

Which shows what type of issues will get Disney to step in. Unfortunately Ike was involved with the new cap movie, so the earliest we could see a difference would be after that one.

 

Back on topic. Does any one know if Disney can release the original versions of the first trilogy? I could see Lucas as the type of control freak that would have something in the contract that this wouldn't be allowed.

[benteen]

Ike Perlmutter, bah!  Ike meddled with the Avengers movies and thankfully Feige doesn't answer to him anymore.  Now he's meddling with Marvel Comics itself.

[Ronin Jackson]

Back on topic. Does any one know if Disney can release the original versions of the first trilogy? I could see Lucas as the type of control freak that would have something in the contract that this wouldn't be allowed.

 

I don't know for sure, but yeah I would guess that Lucas still retains control over how any of the original trilogy or prequel films are exhibited. If you do want HD transfers of the original "despecialized"  trilogy, it is out there, thanks to a single fan who reconstructed it from the unaltered material from the Special Edition transfers and actually editing in his own HD transfers of original 35 mm prints of the scenes that were changed. It's even got the opening crawl of the first Star Wars without the "Episode IV: A New Hope" title. I can't point the way but the key word is "despecialized" should you want to follow the bread crumbs an internet search may provide.

[Last Time Lord]

Good catch on the translator droid. I had forgotten about that.

Did you watch any of The Clone Wars animated series? It's still a show I miss a great deal.

Disney has their pros and cons but their meddling does concern me. Even Joss Whedon, after his success with the first Avengers movie had to deal with Disney meddling while filming Age of Ultron (the nonsensical cave scene being one example). I understand Disney has a lot invested in these properties but they are micro-managers too.

It's on Netflix!

Watched the first episode listed last night. To my surprise, the episode didn't feature Anakin or Obi-Wan at all, but was all about Yola making a complete and utter fool out of Ventress.

One thing I really like about it is instead of the opening crawl, they have this world war II type of newsreel narrator giving updates that set the stage.

[Zuleikha]

I finished Revenge of the Sith, and I am so confused by Palpatine/Darth Sidious. I know the implication is that he trained in the Dark Side of the Force from Darth Plageious (sp?) and is the student who killed him. But when could that have happened? He's in a high profile political position. Wouldn't there have been people who knew he experimented with the Force at some point? Or at the very least, rumors about shady dealings? How did he avoid being detected as Force sensitive? He seemed to be 100% under the radar.

 

Also, I feel like Obi-Wan was a crappy mentor and a crappy Jedi. Count Dooku/Tyrannus told Obi-Wan the truth about the Senate coming under the sway of a Sith Lord (and IIRC, even the name Darth Sidious), but Obi-Wan doesn't seem to have shared that information with the Jedi Council. Mace Windu has a line about Senator Palpatine being surrounded by the cloud of the Dark Side, but he doesn't seem to think that means Palpatine is a probable Sith Lord. Obi-Wan seems to know about Anakin's relationship with Padme (even if not the marriage), but he doesn't seem at all concerned about it or to feel like talking to Anakin or the Jedi Council. He should be able to tell that Anakin is resentful of the Jedi Council's treatment (because Anakin tells him), but Obi-Wan, again, doesn't do anything to make Anakin feel valued or reassured.

 

But most importantly, in the 10 years between The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, Obi-Wan never helps Anakin free his mother from illegal slavery! (made worse in the Clone Wars pilot or movie, which I've also now finally seen, where Anakin actually goes back to Tatooine!) Not even after Anakin talks about his nightmares of Shmi in trouble (which Obi-Wan should have recognized as potential force visions).

[Ronin Jackson]

Speaking of Darth Plagueis, there's the theory floating around that he is Snoke. I guess the best thing about that theory is it's the first thing that makes Snoke interesting... but I also tend to geek out about the little things John Williams has done in the trilogy (like the way Anakin's theme in TPM is a maudlin variation of the Imperial March/Darth Vader theme), so I found this part of the speculation fun:

The music when the tale of Plagueis is told and the Snoke music is very similar. Certainly not definitive proof but it would be a nifty musical hint if true.

 

John Williams is very old so I hope he's able to continue working at least another 4 years to complete this new trilogy. He'll be 87 by the time it finishes. If he does he'll be the single creative element linking all 9 episodes. Incidentally he will not be scoring Rogue One, and presumably any of the other "Anthology" films. Rogue One will be the first Star Wars live action theatrical film not scored by Williams, The good news is it'll be scored by Alexandre Desplat who is terrific in his own right (especially his recent work with Wes Anderson)..

Edited December 30, 2015 by Ronin Jackson

[CaughtOnTape]

Also, I feel like Obi-Wan was a crappy mentor and a crappy Jedi. 

 

My friends and I were joking at work about this.  He also did a crappy job "hiding" Luke, considering Luke was supposed to be more important than Leia was.  Hands him over to Shmi's side of the family on Anakin's home planet, doesn't change his name, and then plants himself a few doors down.  Vader must be the most unobservant baddie in the galaxy to not have figured that one out.

 

We were also laughing that at the end of Star Wars Luke, Leia and Han can't be bothered to give 2 shits that R2 basically got his head blown off.

Edited December 30, 2015 by CaughtOnTape

[Last Time Lord]

My friends and I were joking at work about this. He also did a crappy job "hiding" Luke, considering Luke was supposed to be more important than Leia was. Hands him over to Shmi's side of the family on Anakin's home planet, doesn't change his name, and then plants himself a few doors down. Vader must be the most unobservant baddie in the galaxy to not have figured that one out.

We were also laughing that at the end of Star Wars Luke, Leia and Han can't be bothered to give 2 shits that R2 basically got his head blown off.

Tattooine was not a part of the Republic, so it wasn't a part of the Empire.

Obi-Wan essential hid Luke on a country with no extradition treaty.

As for the Stormtrooper presence in A New Hope, a terrorist organization launched illegally obtained plans to a military weapon onto the planet when it was clear they weren't going to be able to escape.*

Denying the Empire assistance would be a stupid move by Jabba and would only cause tension between their governments. Why do that when there's no reason to?

*From a certain point of view

[Zuleikha]

I thought the Outer Rim was a part of the Republic and then a part of the Empire, but it was so far out that it was functionally under the control of the Hut mafia syndicate. That was what I got out of The Phantom Menance and A New Hope.

 

Even if it wasn't, we saw that the Stormtroopers had free reign on it A New Hope, so I still think it was a crappy place to "hide" Luke. I don't think Luke was more important than Leia. The twins were theoretically equally important, but Obi-Wan was able to train Luke first. IIRC, Obi-Wan never had time to train Leia. I may not be remembering that correctly, though. It's all blurred together in my head at this point.

[Joe]

Obi-Wan hid Luke in a place that Vader hated, would never willingly return to. Vader didn't even know Luke was alive. It's a good hiding spot, one that worked. As far as we know, he never visited the planet again until just after ANH, when the Emperor sends him to talk to Jabba.

[benteen]

Obi-Wan hid Luke in a place that Vader hated, would never willingly return to. Vader didn't even know Luke was alive. It's a good hiding spot, one that worked. As far as we know, he never visited the planet again until just after ANH, when the Emperor sends him to talk to Jabba.

 

Exactly.  Vader didn't know Luke was alive.  He hated Tatooine and had no intention of going back there.

[Joe]

He didn't like sand. It was coarse and rough and irritating and got everywhere. Tatooine is all sand. Imagine all that sand in the armour!

[Zuleikha]

It's a good hiding spot, one that worked.

It worked by author fiat. The question is whether it's plausible that it worked.

 

Personally, I don't think so. I think it is unlikely that Vader would never have visited Shmi's grave, checked in on how Owen and Beru were doing (and then learned they had a son exactly the age his child with Padme would have been but apparently no other children), or looked for Obi-Wan. Also, wasn't Tatooine strategically important as Jabba's base?

 

Also, Luke was likely to enroll in the Imperial Academy at some point, and I think again that Darth Vader would have looked into a Skywalker. He seemed very family oriented.

[Joe]

Luke was likely to enroll in the Imperial Academy at some point, and I think again that Darth Vader would have looked into a Skywalker. He seemed very family oriented.

 

That's a good point. Now I think of it, maybe that's why Owen wanted him to stay for one season more. Luke gets to the academy. He does well. The name Luke Skywalker of Tatooine reaches either Vader or Palpatine. Whoever got to him first would try to turn him against the other. The other would try to turn him to their own side. Luke would probably side with his father, should that be revealed. Maybe he does go dark, or maybe he brings Vader back to the light. Or maybe he's destroyed in the crossfire. What would Obi-Wan and Yoda do? Would they try to train Leia to fight the three Sith? What would she do?

 

That's an interesting story, and one I might work on myself.

[caracas1914]

In theory I concur with George Lucas recent interview where he said Disny did a "retro" movie, i.e. bereft of any new ideas/vision.

George Lucas prequels certainly were stuffed with ideas, the problem is they were badly executed and some were very bad choices. I could see exploring the origins of Darth Vader. However, Nobody questioned how it was impossible to portray a mopey headed kid who would grow into Vader. It's like trying to show a happy go lucky toddler Joseph Stalin. I know a lot of people ragged on Jake Lloyd but no child actor could have pulled that off.

I mean, showing Anakin as a troubled and traumatized teenager/adolescent from the get go who was already struggling with his dark side would have certainly engaged the audience who could see the reasons for his choices. The Moppet and Jar Jar Binks was too much.

Lucas always struck me as not really liking the nuts and bolts of directing itself , so the green screen excesses of the prequels fit in with his comfort zone. The CGI I could have dealt with if the storylines were better handled but it seemed nobody could reign him in.

Edited December 31, 2015 by caracas1914

[Hanahope]

But most importantly, in the 10 years between The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, Obi-Wan never helps Anakin free his mother from illegal slavery! (made worse in the Clone Wars pilot or movie, which I've also now finally seen, where Anakin actually goes back to Tatooine!) Not even after Anakin talks about his nightmares of Shmi in trouble (which Obi-Wan should have recognized as potential force visions).

 

Well, to be fair, what happened was Shmi was traded/sold to the Lars family, who's patriarch ended up marrying her, which at least suggests she wasn't actually a slave anymore and was probably happy.  True, it would have been nice if Obi-Wan had actually found this out and let Anakin know that his mother was fine.  The nightmares Anakin had, while he was protecting Amidalia on Naboo, were because Shmi had just been captured by the Sand people/Tuskin raiders and yes, she was hurt and abused by them.  So I get Anakin's anger at the raiders, but it shouldn't necessarily had spilled over into anger at the Jedi's or anyone else.

 

And speaking of Anakin's anger, his temper tantrum against the raiders sounds a heck of a lot like Kylo's tantrums.  Basically, Kylo is young Anakin.

 

During my rewatch with my kids, I'm definitely reminded about how bad the romance of Anakin and Amidalia is.  They haven't seen each other since they were really kids (he was 8, 10? and she only slightly older).  I get that Anakin obsessed about her, given that he probably wasn't exposed to all that many other 'eligible' young women during his training, and began training when he was perhaps 'old enough' to start having such crushes (another reason why Yoda was right that Anakin was 'too old' besides the fact that he'd already learned to rebel against authority and keep secrets, rather than accept authority and be truthful, as young jedi trainees were trained to do). 

 

But I fail to see how Amidalia fell in love with Anakin.  She certainly had more options  before him during those 10 years, and when they did meet up again, he's all super obsessed stalker-like ('you're all I thought about for 10 years') and shows his temper against the Tusken raiders, which Amidalia looked like she was horrified about.  Frankly, if I was Amidalia, I'd be super creeped out by him.  She just didn't seem like one of those types of women that love men that go all ballistic when someone threatens or hurts their family.

 

So we see scene after scene of Anakin showing his stalker side and Amidalia looking like she's not so sure about him and telling him to stop, then all of a sudden she's professing undying love for him?

 

Of course, I do love the fact that the Jedi council/Qui Gon is all 'ooo chosen one, bring balance back to the Force' without understanding (or explaining) what that really meant.

 

And definitely Obi-Wan was not ready to have his own padawan, especially when he'd only just been promoted to knight himself.  At the very least, Obi-Wan needed more experience just being a Jedi knight.  That was another real bad decision on everyone's part.  If nothing else, Anakin needed someone who believed in him and he already knew Obi-Wan did not fully believe, Obi-Wan essentially only stood up for ``and offered to train Anakin because Qui Gon wanted him to.

 

And, of course, I do love how easily Palpatine is able to manipulate Naboo, when they leave their governing to young girls and idiot Gungans.