The Star Wars Saga

[Zuleikha]

Well, to be fair, what happened was Shmi was traded/sold to the Lars family, who's patriarch ended up marrying her, which at least suggests she wasn't actually a slave anymore and was probably happy.  True, it would have been nice if Obi-Wan had actually found this out and let Anakin know that his mother was fine.

Yeah, I know that Shmi ended up okay at some point, but Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't. If there was a reason why Anakin couldn't help his mother or even contact her for that whole time, Attack of the Clones didn't bother to let us know what it was. So IMHO, it looks like cruelty or absent mindedness on Obi-Wan's part.

 

And speaking of Anakin's anger, his temper tantrum against the raiders sounds a heck of a lot like Kylo's tantrums.  Basically, Kylo is young Anakin.

I'll stand up for Anakin on this one. He slaughtered the raiders in a moment of extreme grief and rage because they tortured his mother to death over a period of 30 days. I think that's different from Kylo's tantrums over things not going his way. 

 

So we see scene after scene of Anakin showing his stalker side and Amidalia looking like she's not so sure about him and telling him to stop, then all of a sudden she's professing undying love for him.

Yes, I'm convinced Natalie Portman couldn't figure out what was going on with Padme's feelings either and that's why she's so wooden in the "I die a little every day I'm not with you" speech. It was a horribly written romance.

 

IMHO, it's also another example of Obi-Wan-as-crappy-mentor. Even if somehow, Anakin never let his obsession with Padme show during the 10 years of mentoring, it was obvious both during their walk to Padme's and when Anakin was talking to her during that initial meeting. And yet, Obi-Wan left Padme's safety in Anakin's hands without ever checking in on her/them or instructing anyone else to. In a way, that decision went bad in the best way possible because there are worse ways it could have gone bad! (also, I did not follow the movie's logic for why Padme needed to be in hiding with Anakin for so long)

[absnow54]

Yeah, I know that Shmi ended up okay at some point, but Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't. If there was a reason why Anakin couldn't help his mother or even contact her for that whole time, Attack of the Clones didn't bother to let us know what it was. So IMHO, it looks like cruelty or absent mindedness on Obi-Wan's part.

I cut Obi Wan some slack because he was never privy to Anakin's life on Tatooine (he spends that entire part of the movie back at the ship) and growing up in the Jedi academy, he doesn't really get familial attachment, and since Anakin was thrust upon him as a pupil when he was barely getting his footing as a Jedi Knight, I don't think he really knew how to deal with a kid who misses his mother, nor was he supposed to, because Anakin's attachment to his mother went against the Jedi Order.

 

I think if anyone should get flack for overlooking Shmi's well being, it's Padme. She's a politician who is full of compassion. I know she had a lot of shit going on with protecting her home planet, but you'd think she'd show the kid who blew up the control ship that was invading her planet some gratitude and pull some strings to have his mother freed.

Edited December 31, 2015 by absnow54

[Hanahope]

I think if anyone should get flack for overlooking Shmi's well being, it's Padme. She's a politician who is full of compassion. I know she had a lot of shit going on with protecting her home planet, but you'd think she'd show the kid who blew up the control ship that was invading her planet some gratitude and pull some strings to have his mother freed.

 

Good point.  And since clearly Palpatine was able to 'secretly' converse with Anakin over the course of 10 years, you'd think Padme would have figured out some way to get a message to Anakin about his mom.

[caracas1914]

George Lucas claims that technology had to catch up to his vision for the prequels, though in hindsight too much time passed by (16 years) and whatever mix he concocted even with his flaws for the original trilogy was long gone.

Not surprising when we look at similar examples with Coppola (Godfather) , Bogdonavich (Last picture Show) and even Steven Spielberg (Indiana Jones) when they tried to revisit something 16 plus years after the last film.

[jennifer6973]

Wasn't Anakin told that his child had died when he inhabited the Vader parts at the end of 3.  Maybe that is why he never looked for Luke.

[Matt K]

So I was never much of a Star Wars fan, saw the movies once (until last week, never saw the prequels) when they were released on VHS.  I have to say it hard to rewatch the movies. Part of it is all the tinkering Lucas did kind of ruins the movies for me.  Like hey here's a CGI something where the other scenes have puppets (the worst by far is the cantina in RoJ).  It just really takes me out of the movie.  Same with the Hutt scene in the first movie.  It just doesn't work.  I also can't just marvel at the effects/scenery/etc of the movie because so much of it has been altered from what was originally filmed.  I'm of the opinion that Lucas's meddling kind of ruin the films.  Hopefully Disney will make the original transfers what they'll put out (DVD/Blueray/digital formats).

 

The other issue (which is not the fault of the movies themselves) is watching them is like watching a Monty Python movie for the first time where everyone else is quoting throughout the movie.  It's hard to describe but having seen a lot of these scenes in so many other contexts (mainly as jokes) kind of hurts the movie.  

 

That said, I did watch the new one this week and really enjoyed it and looking forward to the next.  

[Ruby25]

I'll give Lucas the idea that the prequels were "different." They were badly done and badly acted, but were they trying to be different from the OT? Yes, I'll give him that.

 

The new one is a complete and total rehash with nothing new in it at all, besides the casting of a woman and a black man in the lead roles. It's fan fiction for people who wanted to see the 1977 movie all over again. Abrams could have done something different if he wanted, but he didn't. He played it safe.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Ruby25

[SimoneS]

I saw George Lucas' interview. It is all sour grapes. He is nothing, but a bitter arrogant hypercritic who is unhappy because so many people love this new movie (despite the whining from peanut gallery) and hated his three prequels. There was nothing stopping him from creating this movie himself with his own vision, but instead he sold the Star Wars rights to Disney and gave up creative control of the franchise. Lucas damn sure didn't need the money so more likely he was scared of more criticism and having more creative flops. 

 

ETA: And to use the term, "white slavers" too. If only enslaved Africans were paid the estimated $4 billion that Lucas got for Star Wars. This is a man with an African American wife and one child of color. Yikes. My sympathies to them. 

Edited December 31, 2015 by SimoneS

[Ruby25]

If anything, he should still be flattered, right? The movie is an exact copy of the first one, the one that he himself wrote and directed. So yeah, people hated the prequels, but obviously the answer to what they wanted is the same thing he already did way back when.

[VCRTracking]

Anyway he hadn't even seen the movie when he did the interview(a fact which pretty much every news source is neglecting) but he was saying a new Star Wars movie should do different things and there's no reason a new good one can't be made without rehashing the past. I like The Force Awakens but I want the next movies to have new ideas and stories, along with better acting and writing and directing than the prequels.

Edited December 31, 2015 by VCRTracking

[ybrik]

Okay, I have to say as someone who has watched each of the originals probably over a hundred times, I don't see TFA as a copy of ANH. They have similar beats, yes but so does PM.

 

Regarding the prequels, I think PM was the biggest mistake of the trilogy. The whole story could have been exposition in a first movie where the main change would have been Anakin and Padme not meeting while he was just a boy. Have Anakin already being mentored by Obi-Wan. We needed more time with them being friends/partners. We needed more time with Anakin being a good guy so his fall would be greater. Also with a teenage Anakin you could have more time with him and Padme developing a real relationship.

 

I do think that alot of things were left unsaid by the prequels that would have helped them. In the novelization of ROTS, Dooku is a hardcore speciest(?) he is for a Empire of Man(Human) which is why the Seperatists are all alien looking species. They were going to take the fall along with the Jedi which is why there is no aliens in the Empire during the OT. Also there was the issue of Grievous who was supposed to be intimidating but doesn't really come off it in the movie. Too much of Grievous is in either novels or the cartoons. If they had a movie that was just on the Clone Wars they could have not only done more for him but also really shown Anakin and Obi-Wan as the skilled Jedi that they are supposed to be.

[Zuleikha]

I think if anyone should get flack for overlooking Shmi's well being, it's Padme.

Excellent point. I don't let Obi-Wan off the hook at all, but it's true that Padme should have done something, too. Of course, really it's Lucas's poor writing. He wanted Anakin's nightmares and for Anakin not to know anything about his mother when Anakin finally went to Tatooine, so that's what happened. It's silly because the important part could still have happened. Obi-Wan and Anakin could have briefly expositioned about freeing her and her being happily/safely married when discussing Anankin's nightmares, which would also have made their initially dismissing them more sensible.

 

Regarding the prequels, I think PM was the biggest mistake of the trilogy.

Yes! I will never understand what Lucas was thinking. Why not start with Attack of the Clones and have Anakin/Padme meet in a non-creepy way? Then have a Clone Wars movie to fill in that gap and show us Anakin developed into a mostly hero, but let us see Palpatine subtly mentoring/pushing him toward the Dark Side. Finally, we'd end with a more coherent Revenge of the Sith. I really wish Lucas had kept the political aspect to Anakin's fall because what I've read about that is more interesting to me than the fall being all about fears for Padme. 

 

Having a Clone Wars movie as the second movie also could have helped fill in the gaps on why the Jedi Council appears to have never followed through on investigating the actual origins of the clones as well as what Count Dooku said about Darth Sidious.

[caracas1914]

I just don't think, unlike say a Steven Spielberg, that George Lucas had this burning desire to direct. Once the originals made him incredibly wealthy even by the late 70's, he could have cherry picked any project he wanted to helm. Other than SW , what other films has he officially directed in those last 35 + years?

It was almost like he was obligated to do the prequel trilogy so I'm not shocked he didn't have the motivation to head another series of films, plus of course ...4 billion.

Edited January 1, 2016 by caracas1914

[ybrik]

The only other movie was the WWII movie Red Tails. It was an decent movie and the aerial dogfights were good. Yeah his desire to direct hasn't really been there and basically he didn't really want to direct the prequels since he asked Speilberg, Ron Howard and apparenlty a couple of others to direct the movies. They turned him downed and encouraged Lucas to do it. He really has been more into the creative side and executive producing movies/tv shows.

[Perfect Xero]

It worked by author fiat. The question is whether it's plausible that it worked.

 

Personally, I don't think so. I think it is unlikely that Vader would never have visited Shmi's grave, checked in on how Owen and Beru were doing

 

Granted, I think it was pretty dumb that they didn't at least Change Luke's sname, but Owen was Anakin's step-brother that he barely met once at one of the most painful moments of his life, I really don't think he'd drop by to visit and make awkward small talk. I also don't think he'd visit his mother's grave after what he'd become.

[Joe]

Here's something I heard on a podcast. Luke doesn't mention a last name until after Obi-Wan talks about Anakin. He could have been using Lars up until then. But George Lucas probably didn't intend for that.

[Rick Kitchen]

Just putting this here:

 

[BW Manilowe]

Jason Wingreen, the character actor who (uncredited, according to this) provided the voice of Boba Fett in The Empire Strikes Back & apparently in some of the merchandise, has died at age 95.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/jason-wingreen-dead-all-family-851697?utm_source=twitter

Edited January 2, 2016 by BW Manilowe

[StaceyNotStacie]

I'm curious as to the tv rights of the first six movies. I remember when Spike TV used to run a marathon every time there was a holiday weekend. It's been a few years since I've seen Star Wars on tv. I'm surprised that one of the Disney owned channels did not show the old movies prior to the new movie's release. With all of this winter finale stuff that the networks do anymore, ABC could have easily scheduled a week's worth of movies with one movie a night for the people who have never seen Star Wars and don't want to spend the money on the DVDs.

[absnow54]

I was wondering the same thing. According to this, the deal with Spike TV expired in 2014. FOX owns the distribution rights for the two trilogies until 2020 (and the original Star Wars film forever) so Disney won't be playing the movies any time soon unless another deal can be reached. 

Edited January 6, 2016 by absnow54

[VCRTracking]

The scenes of young Vito Corleone in the Godfather Part II was a more successful way of doing backstory by intercutting with the "modern" story of his adult son. They show Vito as a little boy in Sicily whose family is killed by the local don and escaping to America, then time jump to him as a young man who becomes a criminal to take care of his family without dealing with scenes nobody cares about like Vito meeting and marrying his wife or the specifics on how he set up his empire. 

 

So we see scene after scene of Anakin showing his stalker side and Amidalia looking like she's not so sure about him and telling him to stop, then all of a sudden she's professing undying love for him?

 

I know we shouldn't judge girls by the way they dress but considering Padme has a vast wardrobe and has dressed conservatively before and she suddenly wears a bare shouldered gown to dinner and then the next scene the outer part is gone and there's a leather corset underneath? My interpretation of the scene is Padme wanted sex but then Anakin starts talking about leaving the Jedi Order for her and she was like "Whoa! time to put a stop to this."  Her willing to go with him to Tatooine because of his nightmares about his mother is the biggest indication she cares about him. There's no reason for her to go with him.

Edited January 6, 2016 by VCRTracking

[SeanC]

ETA: And to use the term, "white slavers" too. If only enslaved Africans were paid the estimated $4 billion that Lucas got for Star Wars. This is a man with an African American wife and one child of color. Yikes. My sympathies to them. 

Unless I'm mistaken, a "white slaver" is somebody who pulls people into "white slavery", i.e., forced prostitution.  Something of an overstatement either way, of course.

 

During my rewatch with my kids, I'm definitely reminded about how bad the romance of Anakin and Amidalia is.  They haven't seen each other since they were really kids (he was 8, 10? and she only slightly older).  I get that Anakin obsessed about her, given that he probably wasn't exposed to all that many other 'eligible' young women during his training, and began training when he was perhaps 'old enough' to start having such crushes (another reason why Yoda was right that Anakin was 'too old' besides the fact that he'd already learned to rebel against authority and keep secrets, rather than accept authority and be truthful, as young jedi trainees were trained to do). 

 

But I fail to see how Amidalia fell in love with Anakin.  She certainly had more options  before him during those 10 years, and when they did meet up again, he's all super obsessed stalker-like ('you're all I thought about for 10 years') and shows his temper against the Tusken raiders, which Amidalia looked like she was horrified about.  Frankly, if I was Amidalia, I'd be super creeped out by him.  She just didn't seem like one of those types of women that love men that go all ballistic when someone threatens or hurts their family.

 

So we see scene after scene of Anakin showing his stalker side and Amidalia looking like she's not so sure about him and telling him to stop, then all of a sudden she's professing undying love for him?

I think there's supposed to be a sort of overpowering sexual attraction on Amidala's part that ultimately overwhelms her better judgement.  This doesn't work, for a multitude of reasons, including lack of actor chemistry, Lucas' inability to write romance convincingly, and his related inability to direct actors.

 

Regarding the prequels, I think PM was the biggest mistake of the trilogy. The whole story could have been exposition in a first movie where the main change would have been Anakin and Padme not meeting while he was just a boy. Have Anakin already being mentored by Obi-Wan. We needed more time with them being friends/partners. We needed more time with Anakin being a good guy so his fall would be greater. Also with a teenage Anakin you could have more time with him and Padme developing a real relationship.

Looking back on the prequels, and TPM in particular, it jumps out at me what a counterproductive character Qui-Gon Jinn was.  All his being in the narrative really does is get in the way of the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan, when it's the latter that is supposed to be one of the cruxes of the trilogy.

[stealinghome]

Looking back on the prequels, and TPM in particular, it jumps out at me what a counterproductive character Qui-Gon Jinn was.  All his being in the narrative really does is get in the way of the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan, when it's the latter that is supposed to be one of the cruxes of the trilogy.

I think that could have worked if the PT had invested in the notion that Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship WAS inherently unstable, or not great. Like if they had cast Anakin's fall as in part because Obi-Wan wasn't the right mentor for him, or that they always had a strained relationship, or whatever. You could maybe read that as a subtext in the PT currently, but as-is mostly Anakin just looks like such a whiny, sulky little snot you want to canonize Obi-Wan for not murdering him years ago.

[VCRTracking]

Unless I'm mistaken, a "white slaver" is somebody who pulls people into "white slavery", i.e., forced prostitution.  Something of an overstatement either way, of course.

 

No, you're correct. Unfortunately a lot of young people now aren't familiar with the term so they misinterpreted it.

[benteen]

Qui-Gon was a really good character and someone I look at as the prime example of a Jedi.  But his presence does undermine the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship because they barely interact in the first movie as a result.  Attack of the Clones is forced to work overtime on the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship and did a very poor job of it.

[absnow54]

I think the misstep there was thrusting Padme into that part of the story, and having her go along with Qui Gon on Tatooine while Obi Wan stayed with the ship. That way they could have set up a more adversarial albeit brotherly bond between Anakin and Obi Wan as they shared a master. Anakin could still admire Queen Amidala and her unwavering integrity from afar without the creepy "but he's, like, eight!" implications (not that Natalie Portman was that old.) At the same time, female representation is hard enough to come by in the Star Wars saga, and they were showcasing Padme's stubborn independence and passion to serve her people, but it's not like she showcased any of her dazzling diplomacy or political sway in the junkyards. She had no purpose other than to walk around and complain. Come to think of it, it would have been more interesting to have the search party be Qui Gon, Obi Wan, and Padme (I had forgotten Jar Jar was along too, so let's just get rid of him, obviously) and have Qui Gon and Padme be a part of the Watto negotiations (where she would naturally excel) while Anakin and Obi Wan have the "are you an angel" meet-cute (I mean, except for the angel part.) 

[VCRTracking]

Just watched the 2012 adaptation of Great Expectations directed by Mike Newell with Helena Bonham Carter as Miss Havisham and they first show Pip and Estella as children and when they do the time jump where they're young adults they're played by different actors. They've done this with every adaptation of Great Expectations from the David Lean 1946 straight adaptation to the modern-day version with Ethan Hawke and Gwyneth Paltrow.

 

I realized after seeing it that it was probably a bad idea to have Natalie Portman play BOTH Padme when she was 14 in one movie and then Padme when she was 24 years old in the next. Portman was 17 when she made Episode I and was young-looking enough to pass for 14 without makeup but she still looked old next to Jake Lloyd. Then when they made Episode II where it was supposed to be 10 years later, Portman was 20 playing 24. Unfortunately she still looked young for her age and even though different makeup could make her look like an adult she looked too young for Hayden Christensen who's actually the same age as her but is playing a character supposed to be five years younger!  Instead of a young man smitten with an older woman it looked like a college guy hitting on a high school girl(a sophomore).

Edited January 7, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Perfect Xero]

The story of the Jedi Order in the prequel trilogy is that they've become so afraid of the Dark Side that they've removed themselves from their own emotion and humanity and had actually begun to lose their ability to use the Force.I think that Qui Gon and his talk of the "Living Force" is supposed to represent an experienced Jedi Master who believes that they should be part of the world rather than removed from it and that you fight the Dark Side in the here and now, not by removing emotion.

 

Basically he's the guy who could have actually trained Anakin properly, and probably would have struggled to keep the Jedi out of fighting a War because there was a Sith on the other side. Obi Wan is awesome, but inexperienced, and Yoda and Mace are so afraid of a 10 year old who loves his mother that they refuse to aid in his training.

[Zuleikha]

I think the idea of TPM was that Qui-Gon's death was a tragedy because it was a game-changer both for Anakin and the Jedi. If he had lived, things would have gone a lot differently.

 

I think that was supposed to be the idea of TPM, but I don't think it was communicated effectively. The information about the Force weakening for the Jedi didn't come until Revenge of the Sith, IIRC, and while we all mocked Yoda's fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, heat leads to suffering, suffering leads to the Dark Side speech, Yoda was also right in the world of the movie. Anakin did fall to the Dark Side. Obi-Wan's poor mentorship is also not acknowledged by the prequel characters, so it feels muddy whether it's intentional or poor writing.

 

Which really sums up the problems of the prequel for me. The idea behind them was sound and interesting. The execution was just so bad that it's difficult to see the ideas without resorting to supplementary material, much less appreciate them.

[VCRTracking]

If Obi-Wan instead of Qui-Gon had been the one to find Anakin and take him away to be a Jedi we'd feel less bad for him when things go wrong later. We'd be like "Hey it was your idea to train this kid! You have nobody else to blame!"  Having Obi-Wan be skeptical of Anakin from the start and then take him on as an apprentice because he was only fulfilling a promise to his dying master makes him feel like he got a raw deal.

Edited January 8, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Perfect Xero]

I think that was supposed to be the idea of TPM, but I don't think it was communicated effectively. The information about the Force weakening for the Jedi didn't come until Revenge of the Sith, IIRC, and while we all mocked Yoda's fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, heat leads to suffering, suffering leads to the Dark Side speech, Yoda was also right in the world of the movie. Anakin did fall to the Dark Side. Obi-Wan's poor mentorship is also not acknowledged by the prequel characters, so it feels muddy whether it's intentional or poor writing.

 

Which really sums up the problems of the prequel for me. The idea behind them was sound and interesting. The execution was just so bad that it's difficult to see the ideas without resorting to supplementary material, much less appreciate them.

It's actually in Attack of the Clones that Mace and Yoda debate telling the senate that their ability to use the force has diminished.

 

I'll certainly agree that the execution of the PT was downright bad, but the way I see Yoda being right about Anakin is a lot like how Anakin had a vision of Padme dying which came true ... because Anakin went over to the Dark Side to try to save her and ended up killing her.

 

Yoda's right about Anakin, but I think part of the reason that he's right is because of the missteps that the Jedi made throughout the trilogy in dealing with Anakin (and Palpatine). Even Anakin's final nudge over to the Dark Side is when Mace Windu seemingly has Palpatine defeated and decides that Palpatine is too dangerous to be allowed to live, so he breaks with the Jedi way and goes to execute Palpatine himself. Which sums up the Jedi's role in the entire trilogy, the Jedi are so afraid of the Sith and the Dark Side that they lose sight of what it's supposed to mean to be a Jedi.

[benteen]

It's not the Jedi way but trying to kill Palpatine was the right thing to do.  Just not around Anakin.

[Zuleikha]

It's not the Jedi way but trying to kill Palpatine was the right thing to do.  Just not around Anakin.

I feel like the messaging is very muddled. When Anakin similarly executed Count Dooku, the action is initially framed as him succumbing to the temptation of Palpatine and breaking from the Jedi way. Anakin explicitly says that it's not what he was supposed to do as a Jedi.

 

Yet Obi-Wan isn't upset with Anakin for killing Dooku at all. He basically praises him for it in the next scene. Like with Mace and Palpatine, its hard to imagine how Dooku could have been captured and safely held since being defeated in battle doesn't remove his Force abilities. Jedis also kill in battle. While the optics of Anakin executing Dooku and Mace being about to execute Palpatine appeared Dark Side as both combatants seemed defeated and helpless, it's hard for me to really distinguish how those killings are actually different than the killing of Darth Maul or General Grievous.

 

So were we supposed to believe that Anakin was just wrong when he says that he wasn't following the Jedi way when he killed Dooku? Or were we supposed to see Mace killing Palpatine in nearly identical circumstances as Mace deviating from the Jedi way? (Personally, I saw it as deviating from the pathway of democracy, but I don't know about the Jedi way. I think it was wrong for Mace Windu to unilaterally decide to execute the democratically chosen leader of the Senate. I think Palpatine should have been formally accused and brought to trial, and if it couldn't be made to happen because the Jedi Council didn't know how to play politics, well that's part of being in a democracy. But what did the Jedi think would happen after Palpatine's execution? Because it seems likely to me that there would be a lot of chaos and continued war rather than peace and flowers)

 

But this is all what I mean about the ideas being muddled because the execution was so muddled. IMHO, it's not clear at all in the prequels that we're supposed to see the Jedi Council as a stale, decaying institution whose flaws are partially responsible for the tragic outcome rather than the brave heroes who are outmanipulated by Palpatine and betrayed by Anakin.

[benteen]

Well, Obi-Wan was unconscious when Anakin killed Dooku so he didn't see what happened.  Anakin had to carry Obi-Wan off the bridge.  I liked that moment because that is the one time Anakin defies Palpatine in the prequel series because Palpatine told him to leave Obi-Wan there.  Anyway, I'm sure Anakin gave Obi-Wan a less-than-honest account of how he killed Dooku.

 

Dave Filoni from The Clone Wars talked about how the revelation that Palpatine was a Sith, if that had happened, might have drawn a "so what" reaction from the public at large.  What were the Sith to them?  It's an interesting thing to dwell on.  On what authority was Mace trying to arrest Palpatine on?  I doubt they could have held him, I doubt they could have tried him and what evidence would they have presented to try to prosecute him on?  Killing Palpatine might have backfired in their faces.

 

Trying to take down Palpatine was the right thing to do, regardless of the consequences.  But it was basically a coup that the Jedi were trying to pull off.

[Zuleikha]

Well, Obi-Wan was unconscious when Anakin killed Dooku so he didn't see what happened.

I know he didn't see exactly how it happened, but it meant that killing Dooku was a perfectly acceptable outcome that was to be celebrated. To me, that attitude is not consistent with what either Anakin or Mace did being divergent from the Jedi way. Maybe I'm being too influenced from the Clone Wars, but it seemed like a known issue that capturing someone with Force powers was a heck of a lot easier than keeping them captured or rendering them harmless.

 

On what authority was Mace trying to arrest Palpatine on?  I doubt they could have held him, I doubt they could have tried him and what evidence would they have presented to try to prosecute him on?  Killing Palpatine might have backfired in their faces.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I know killing Palpatine would probably have solved some things, but I don't think it was going to solve as much as the Jedi seemed to think.

[ybrik]

Yeah Obi Wan probably wasn"t told the whole truth. In the novel, if I remember correctly, Palpatine covers for Anakin. Also at the end of the movie, Obi Wan doesn't kill a defenseless Anakin.

 

The problem with Qui Gon is that we dont' see him in ROTS as a force ghost. In the novelization, he comes to Yoda as a force ghost and Yoda expresses some of his failures. The movie needed this scene. They set up Yoda is hearing Qui Gon's voice when he meditates in AOC and Yoda hears Qui Gon call out Anakin's name.

 

I think the problem with the prequels was definitely not in how the story was outlined. When I read the novels for the prequels especially ROTS the story comes through. It just doesn't translate as clear on screen as it should. Like one of the big things that isn't made as clear is that the Separatists are almost all non-humanoid aliens while the Republic is mostly humanoid so that the non-humanoid aliens would be persecuted once the war was over which is why the Empire is human in the original trilogy and the non-humanoid aliens are on the outskirts of society.

[Zuleikha]

Also at the end of the movie, Obi Wan doesn't kill a defenseless Anakin.

See, I considered that a really dark, horrible thing. Obi-Wan just walked away from a legless, mostly armless Anakin while Anakin was ON FIRE. I thought the right thing to do was clearly a mercy kill. I've actually wondered why leaving Anakin to a drawn-out, painful death didn't send Obi-Wan to the Dark Side.

 

And of course, failing to kill Anakin resulted in Darth Vader. That's why I find the situation with Palpatine and Dooku so murky... in the real world, a captured criminal really is defenseless and there's a reasonable process for holding the criminal. Jail escapes are very rare. But the movies never established how a Force user can be made safe. Police officers also aren't supposed to go on a mission with the expectation of engaging in combat and killing the combatant whereas that's what the Jedi missions were. Obi-Wan and Anakin fully expected to duel Dooku to the death, and to me, the difference between intentionally duelling to the death versus killing the disarmed (but still quite powerful) opponent is just not clear. 

 

But mostly, I just didn't get whether the movie wanted to parallel Dooku/Palpatine to show me that Mace was wrong or whether I was supposed to be on Mace's side. I think I was supposed to see Mace as wrong, but then Palpatine did become the Emperor so was Mace really wrong? (Other than to engage Palpatine/Sidious in direct combat, which I do think was both wrong and stupid)

 

It's kind of like... I feel like we were supposed to feel bad for Anakin that Mace and the Council so explicitly didn't trust him, but he really wasn't trustworthy. He'd been lying to them for YEARS about his forbidden relationship with Padme. He'd gone off mission in Attack of the Clones (and Clone Wars establishes that he's notorious for creative interpretations of orders). Perhaps the Council should have hidden their concerns better, but they were completely right not to trust Anakin, and Anakin should have understood that.

 

Clearly, I need to read the novelizations, especially because after two viewings of The Phantom Menace, I still don't understand what the whole initial invasion of Naboo was about. (and I am NOT willing to rewatch TPM :))

[benteen]

The invasion of Naboo was orchestrated by Palpatine to set up circumstances to allow him to be elected as Supreme Chancellor of the Republic.

[Danny Franks]

Qui Gonn Jinn is such a waste of a character. His only reason for existing is so that someone can advocate for the training of Anakin, in the face of the Jedi Council's opposition. Remove that needless bit of 'drama' and you remove any need for a character who does nothing but make dumb choices and come up with overly convoluted plans to rescue a slave boy.

 

I still think the prequel trilogy should have been built around Obi Wan, with him as the clear main protagonist. Anakin should have been a shadier, more mysterious presence, someone who is truly a friend to Obi Wan, rather than a stupid kid who only gets trained because of some prophecy that makes no sense and no one should want to see fulfilled (the only way to bring balance to the Force, when all current Force users are good, is for someone to be evil).

 

So have Obi Wan and Anakin as two young but competent Jedi who get assigned the job of mediating with the Trade Federation. Have things unfold in a similar (if better written) way, but have tension build between Obi Wan, Padme and Anakin in a more conventional way. If Lucas is honest about Jedi being able to drink the milk as long as they don't buy the cow (to put it as crudely as that 'rule' deserves), then a love triangle with Anakin as the embittered loser would fuel his jealousy and anger towards Obi Wan, creating a rift between the two friends and opening Anakin up to Palpatine's wiles. Luke and Leia could come from a one off liaison between Anakin and Padme, or from some other woman who Anakin turns his attentions to.

 

As it is, the central and overarching flaw of the prequels, in my view, is making them all about Anakin. He never shows any heroic or admirable qualities, never shows any evidence that Obi Wan should remember him with fondness and regret in A New Hope. He's just a pissy asshole who openly defies his master and other Jedi, and who breaks their rules at every turn. If you introduce him as an adult, then you can immediately begin establishing those heroic qualities and make his fall tragic.

[Danny Franks]

You lost me at the love triangle*. Apparently some people really wanted to see this trope play out in the PT? I for one am glad the GFFA didn't become Twilight in Space. Anakin /Padmé were far from perfect but I give Lucas kudos for trying to complicate the relationship with - (apparently the completely unheard of concept of) internal and external pressures from society and their backgrounds / personalities - and not the tired, boring, irritating as hell, manufactured drama of watching some cotton - headed girl not be able to decide which hot guy she wants to bang at the moment.

*Although to be fair, the love triangle is a marginally better plot than the one where Anakin rapes Padmé to conceive the twins which I've just found out was also on a lot of people's wishlists.

I don't think it's really a love triangle if it's two people in a relationship, or with mutual interest, and the third looking on bitterly. To me, a love triangle is where at least one of the people can't decide what they want, and dallies with both of the others. The original trilogy had a love triangle, but that doesn't seem to bother anyone.

Anakin/Padme was awful. It made no sense on any level other than, 'they're both really pretty and shallow'. If that's what Lucas was going for then... well he did a bad job of it. But I don't think he was, he was going for deep and tortured love and sacrifice and secrecy. Lucas just doesn't seem to be able to write people and natural relationships. Everything in the prequels was 'tell don't show', and the love story was just about the worst example.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Danny Franks

[SeanC]

(the only way to bring balance to the Force, when all current Force users are good, is for someone to be evil).

No, that's not what the prophecy meant (though Lucas never actually explained this in the movies, beyond Obi-Wan yelling in ROTS that Anakin was supposed to destroy the Sith). Edited January 9, 2016 by SeanC

[VCRTracking]

Qui Gonn Jinn is such a waste of a character. His only reason for existing is so that someone can advocate for the training of Anakin, in the face of the Jedi Council's opposition. Remove that needless bit of 'drama' and you remove any need for a character who does nothing but make dumb choices and come up with overly convoluted plans to rescue a slave boy.

 

Qui Gon was better in the Clone Wars animated as the Jedi who figured out how to be a 'Force ghost' because he was more in tune to the "Living Force".

 

As it is, the central and overarching flaw of the prequels, in my view, is making them all about Anakin. He never shows any heroic or admirable qualities, never shows any evidence that Obi Wan should remember him with fondness and regret in A New Hope. He's just a pissy asshole who openly defies his master and other Jedi, and who breaks their rules at every turn. If you introduce him as an adult, then you can immediately begin establishing those heroic qualities and make his fall tragic.

 

I think when Lucas made the OT Luke was his stand-in and when he made the prequels Lucas identified with Anakin. Anakin was the one who showed promise but ended up ruining everything and became everything he hated.

Edited January 9, 2016 by VCRTracking

[SeanC]

The central flaw in the prequels is Lucas' writing. Full stop. A version of the story with Anakin as the main character could have worked; so could a version where Obi-Wan was the main character. But George Lucas was not capable of writing either of those stories well, so changing from one to the other wouldn't have fixed anything.

[Demented Daisy]

"Young" Han Solo Actor Shortlist Revealed.  Logan Lerman is the only one I like, but not sure he's right for it.

[blixie]

 

Logan Lerman is the only one I like, but not sure he's right for it.

 

I don't think any of them are right, I think if you put them in blender you might get close, (Elgort has the height/look, Teller the arrogance, Franco the comedic timing) I'm still stuck on Shameless Jeremy Allen White, because his character Lip Gallagher is basically a younger Han by way of the South Side of Chicago, his biggest draw back is that he's on the short side and not quite as swoony handsome as Han but I think if it's younger Han I can live with that to get the rest (charming, arrogant, quippy scoundrel who is always stumbling from one scheme/disaster to the next) so very right.

[stealinghome]

It's kind of like... I feel like we were supposed to feel bad for Anakin that Mace and the Council so explicitly didn't trust him, but he really wasn't trustworthy. He'd been lying to them for YEARS about his forbidden relationship with Padme. He'd gone off mission in Attack of the Clones (and Clone Wars establishes that he's notorious for creative interpretations of orders). Perhaps the Council should have hidden their concerns better, but they were completely right not to trust Anakin, and Anakin should have understood that.

I think Anakin did understand that, though. That's why he stays behind when Mace Windu tells him to, and then starts crying in the scene where he decides to go to the fight. He stayed because he knew the Council was right to mistrust him, and he started crying when he decided to go because for once, he had to face the fact that he was undeniably in the wrong and was proving all their suspicions correct.

 

I don't think we were supposed to feel bad for Anakin, that the Council didn't trust him. When his immediate reaction to being given some honor no one else had ever had (can't remember what it was) was to throw a tantrum like a two-year-old, I found that to be a pretty clear signpost that he was already being given too much responsibility he wasn't ready for.

[Hanahope]

I don't think we were supposed to feel bad for Anakin, that the Council didn't trust him. When his immediate reaction to being given some honor no one else had ever had (can't remember what it was) was to throw a tantrum like a two-year-old, I found that to be a pretty clear signpost that he was already being given too much responsibility he wasn't ready for.

 

He was upset because while a new Jedi-counsel title was made, Chancellor's representative, Anakin was denied the rank of Jedi Master, which all Jedi-counsel members were.  I just thought it odd because Anakin hadn't even finished his training, he was still a Padawan, not even a Jedi knight yet, so how could he be a 'master?'

 

Was there ever any explanation for the 3 (at least) inconsistencies between the first and second trilogy?

 

1. how Leia 'remembered' her mother, 'as a feeling' even though Padme died the day she was born.  Or is Leia supposed to be talking about Mrs. Organa?  but Luke sure seems to think she's talking about their birth mother.

 

2.  How in the first trilogy, Yoda says "there is another" because Obi Wan apparently forgot Luke had a twin sister even though he was there are their birth.  Maybe we're supposed to think Obi Wan didn't know Leia had force powers?

 

3.  Why Luke had the last night Skywalker, when he was supposed to be a secret from Darth Vadar.  Leia got a new last name, why not Luke?  Why not just really adopt Luke as a son, instead of keeping him as a 'nephew?'

 

Frankly, part of me still believes that Anakin can never really be redeemed because those that murder children should always go to  a special hell.  Depending on what exactly Kylo Ren did, he may be in the same boat, imo.

[Joe]

He was upset because while a new Jedi-counsel title was made, Chancellor's representative, Anakin was denied the rank of Jedi Master, which all Jedi-counsel members were.  I just thought it odd because Anakin hadn't even finished his training, he was still a Padawan, not even a Jedi knight yet, so how could he be a 'master?'

 

3.  Why Luke had the last night Skywalker, when he was supposed to be a secret from Darth Vadar.  Leia got a new last name, why not Luke?  Why not just really adopt Luke as a son, instead of keeping him as a 'nephew?'

 

Anakin was a knight. It happened in the Tartakovsky Clone Wars. He doesn't have the padawan braid in ROTS.

 

Luke doesn't identify himself as Skywalker until he meets Leia, IIRC. So this is something I got from a podcast, but maybe previously he called himself Lars. But then his family was killed, so he took his actual last name. It's a stretch, I know. But Lucas doesn't always think these things through.

[Perfect Xero]

Kylo Ren ordered the murder of an entire village in TFA, which presumably included children. It was also at least strongly implied that he was responsible for the massacre of Luke's students.

[moonb]

1. how Leia 'remembered' her mother, 'as a feeling' even though Padme died the day she was born.  Or is Leia supposed to be talking about Mrs. Organa?  but Luke sure seems to think she's talking about their birth mother.

 

Wasn't the original plan, as of ROTJ, for Luke and Leia's mom to have disguised herself as a maid and gone to live with the Organas and Leia? She was supposed to have died when Leia was about 4. Then Lucas altered it to her dying in childbirth to make the Anakin/Padme love story more central in the prequels?  I don't remember where I read this though.