The Star Wars Saga

[Katsullivan]

Solo's disastrous outing is the direct cause and effect of the failure of The Last Jedi, a movie that took all the progress made by women and people of colour of The Force Awakens, and turns it into an ode about white men and a white supremacist mass murderer. 

[Joe]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Solo's disastrous outing is the direct cause and effect of the failure of The Last Jedi, a movie that took all the progress made by women and people of colour of The Force Awakens, and turns it into an ode about white men and a white supremacist mass murderer. 

No, Solo didn't so well because it was an average movie. TLJ did absolutely nothing like you're describing. Rey, Finn, Poe, and Rose had their rough moments, but acted with good intentions and came through in the end. Kylo Ren is a screamy patricidal villain. He did one good thing, killing Snoke. But he didn't follow through with dismantling the FO.

[Katsullivan]

5 hours ago, Joe said:

No, Solo didn't so well because it was an average movie. TLJ did absolutely nothing like you're describing. Rey, Finn, Poe, and Rose had their rough moments, but acted with good intentions and came through in the end. Kylo Ren is a screamy patricidal villain.

Actually Solo was a decent movie, extremely entertaining and would have done much better if it had been released before TLJ. As it stood, it was led in by absolute garbage - a movie that went out of its way to be offensive and boring whose tag line should have been either "Leave women & POC in charge and things go to the toilet" or "even White Nazis love their Mommies". 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

7 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Actually Solo was a decent movie, extremely entertaining and would have done much better if it had been released before TLJ. As it stood, it was led in by absolute garbage - a movie that went out of its way to be offensive and boring whose tag line should have been either "Leave women & POC in charge and things go to the toilet" or "even White Nazis love their Mommies". 

But Solo is about a white male who fathers the White Nazi you're complaining about. I haven't seen it yet, but you can't get much more screwed up than that outside of a Shakespeare play. Maybe they should have called it Han Ruins Everything instead.

I kid.

Mostly.

[Danny Franks]

On 08/06/2018 at 6:52 AM, VCRTracking said:

Agreed. There is definitely a lot of questions that need to be answered as this twitter thread brings up:

The point about Obi Wan's outfit on Tatooine is one I've considered before. That they just made all other Jedi in the prequels dress exactly like him feels like one of the many indicators that the prequels were on the wrong track, from the start. It just smacks of a lack of thought and imagination, from the offset.

I've made no bones about my low opinions for almost everything in the prequels (apart from Ewan MacGregor's performances), and the issues cover everything from writing to acting to directing to costumes to use of CGI. I just feel like they got nearly everything wrong.

They could have done anything with the prequel Jedi. They could have given them crazy armour, or outfits like Luke in ROTJ, or just about anything at all. But what they settled for was... the exact outfit that a Jedi in hiding had worn (which was, coincidentally, the same as the outfit Owen Lars wore, so presumably the best clothing to wear for the Tatooine climate).

Edited June 10, 2018 by Danny Franks

[Joe]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Actually Solo was a decent movie, extremely entertaining and would have done much better if it had been released before TLJ. As it stood, it was led in by absolute garbage - a movie that went out of its way to be offensive and boring whose tag line should have been either "Leave women & POC in charge and things go to the toilet" or "even White Nazis love their Mommies". 

No, I probably would have felt the same about Solo no matter when it was released. As for TLJ, did you expect everything to go well for our heroes in a sequel? It's the middle part of a story, they're going to be put through the wringer even harder than the first time around. They need their backs against the wall, enemies closing in. Always darkest before the dawn and such. Look at ESB, where they just escaped a trap, but not exactly unscathed.

[cambridgeguy]

Part of the reason Solo probably would have done better if it had been released before TLJ because there would have been more viewer enthusiasm for any Star Wars film.  Marvel seems to have mastered the art of getting people into both their solo and team movies but Star Wars isn't there.  It doesn't help that Solo addresses a question most viewers probably didn't care too much about i.e. how Han became the Han we're used to.

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

The point about Obi Wan's outfit on Tatooine is one I've considered before. That they just made all other Jedi in the prequels dress exactly like him feels like one of the many indicators that the prequels were on the wrong track, from the start. It just smacks of a lack of thought and imagination, from the offset.

I've made no bones about my low opinions for almost everything in the prequels (apart from Ewan MacGregor's performances), and the issues cover everything from writing to acting to directing to costumes to use of CGI. I just feel like they got nearly everything wrong.

They could have done anything with the prequel Jedi. They could have given them crazy armour, or outfits like Luke in ROTJ, or just about anything at all. But what they settled for was... the exact outfit that a Jedi in hiding had worn (which was, coincidentally, the same as the outfit Owen Lars wore, so presumably the best clothing to wear for the Tatooine climate).

 

The original concept for the Jedi outfits in TPM were these very different-looking black but for some reason they ended up going for the monk cloak and samurai robes worn by Obi-Wan in ANH:

5 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Actually Solo was a decent movie, extremely entertaining and would have done much better if it had been released before TLJ. As it stood, it was led in by absolute garbage - a movie that went out of its way to be offensive and boring whose tag line should have been either "Leave women & POC in charge and things go to the toilet" or "even White Nazis love their Mommies". 

My tag line would be  "Women and POC need to be on the same page if they hope to ever beat white Nazis," which I think is a good lesson for today.

"Ceterum 'The Last Jedi' est bonum"

Edited June 11, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Jillibean]

Quote

No, Solo didn't so well because it was an average movie. 

I really think this is the crux of the issue. There seems to be a lot of glee from people who hated TLJ over how Solo's numbers are attributable to TLJ being "bad." If that is a factor at all, I think it's just another of many and certainly not the most important one. This is a movie that was getting negative and concerning press long before it ever hit theaters. The Star Wars fanbase was highly divided on whether Solo was a movie that should even be made in terms of what it would contribute to the story and what the purpose of creating it actually was. There was controversy over Alden,controversy over the director switch, and it was always going to be a hard sell to have a non-Harrison-Ford Han Solo. The movie itself, while fine and I thought enjoyable, is nothing amazing and only sort of related to young Han Solo as opposed to being an independent Star Wars movie about some random fellow if you squint. Reviews were okay and seemed to benefit from the fact that really no one appeared to expect much of this movie at all. Regardless of how people felt about TLJ, releasing two SW movies in six months is unprecedented and clearly saturated the market. The Deadpool/Avengers action movie overload also likely played a role in that saturation. And of the three, Solo clearly looked the least inspiring or interesting in trailers. So while I'm sure that plenty of people who disliked TLJ chose to forego the price of a ticket for this one, I think the passion of factions of online fandom is being greatly overrepresented as a determining cause for the movie not doing well. On the flip side, there were a lot of people who absolutely loved TLJ but who didn't necessarily feel the need to support a billion dollar studio by running out to see a tangentially related movie that may or may not interest them, exactly the way that I'm guessing most people who disliked TLJ didn't feel the need to attempt to punish a billion dollar studio by not seeing a tangentially related movie that genuinely interested them. In terms of feelings, either positive or negative, about TLJ impacting Solo--as we psychologists say, it's correlation, not causation in BOTH directions. 

[JessePinkman]

On 6/10/2018 at 7:47 AM, Katsullivan said:

Solo's disastrous outing is the direct cause and effect of the failure of The Last Jedi, a movie that took all the progress made by women and people of colour of The Force Awakens, and turns it into an ode about white men and a white supremacist mass murderer. 

See this is why I’m so confused, I’ve seen people call TLJ a SJW love fest. Which is it? A movie for people of color and women or one against them? Is it supportive of Nazi/alt-right propaganda or against it? I’ve seen arguments for both but in watching the movie I saw neither.

[Joe]

33 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

See this is why I’m so confused, I’ve seen people call TLJ a SJW love fest. Which is it? A movie for people of color and women or one against them? Is it supportive of Nazi/alt-right propaganda or against it? I’ve seen arguments for both but in watching the movie I saw neither.

I know that the Empire was inspired by the Nazis, and the First Order was inspired by the Empire. So there's a kind of hand-me-down Nazism. But it didn't seem as prominent in TLJ as TFA. There's nothing like the TFA rally scene. As for POCs/women, I thought they came off all right. I've seen worse.

[stealinghome]

1 hour ago, JessePinkman said:

See this is why I’m so confused, I’ve seen people call TLJ a SJW love fest. Which is it? A movie for people of color and women or one against them? Is it supportive of Nazi/alt-right propaganda or against it? I’ve seen arguments for both but in watching the movie I saw neither.

The somewhat cheeky answer to this is that it depends on whether the viewer is a member of the alt-right/so inclined or not. For alt-right/so inclined viewers, the fact that the movie features several women and people of color is enough to make it a "SJW love fest." Because featuring anything other than straight white men in leading roles is a "SJW agenda," doncha know. (And yes, those people ignore the fact that ONLY fronting straight white men is also a political agenda. I didn't say they were rational or logical, or even particularly smart.)

I DO get a kick out of the twisted logic of these people, because it's hilarious that those who scream "SJW are ruining Star Wars! SJW are ruining Star Wars!" are blaming SJW for the box office failure of a movie that...fronts a straight white guy. The ONLY movie since TFA to front a straight white guy, mind!

As @Jillibean said above, while I have my bones to pick with TLJ--I fall in the camp of thinking that the movie is not nearly as progressive on gender and race as it thinks it is--it's clear that Solo was destined to flop almost from Day One based on all the BTS chaos, poor marketing, market oversaturation/bad release date, and a general fan disinterest in Han's backstory (this is not a movie fans were clamoring for, even before you factor in the difficulty of replacing Harrison Ford). Even my mom, who really likes Star Wars, said that especially now that Han is dead in the movies, a prequel seems pointless. I think TLJ not going over well with a segment of the fandom had very little to do with Solo's flop. It probably did have SOME effect, but not the massive effect that those who hated TLJ are wanting to claim.

[absnow54]

2 hours ago, Jillibean said:

Regardless of how people felt about TLJ, releasing two SW movies in six months is unprecedented and clearly saturated the market. The Deadpool/Avengers action movie overload also likely played a role in that saturation. And of the three, Solo clearly looked the least inspiring or interesting in trailers. So while I'm sure that plenty of people who disliked TLJ chose to forego the price of a ticket for this one, I think the passion of factions of online fandom is being greatly overrepresented as a determining cause for the movie not doing well.

Agreed. I really disliked The Last Jedi, but that didn't stop me from wanting to see a tangentially related movie. Solo was cursed before TLJ shot a single frame, and I think the idea of shoving it in the middle of a packed summer season when die hard fans were already ambivalent towards the idea of the movie even existing was a big mistake. Yes, Star Wars used to be a May franchise, but it seems silly that they didn't stick to their proven Christmas time release, because even as a die hard Star Wars fan, two movies in six months is more than I need.

[VCRTracking]

4 hours ago, JessePinkman said:

See this is why I’m so confused, I’ve seen people call TLJ a SJW love fest. Which is it? A movie for people of color and women or one against them? Is it supportive of Nazi/alt-right propaganda or against it? I’ve seen arguments for both but in watching the movie I saw neither.

It's like saying Infinity War was on Thanos' side just because we were given a bit of his viewpoint and he won in the end due to various heroes messing up.

3 hours ago, Joe said:

I know that the Empire was inspired by the Nazis, and the First Order was inspired by the Empire. So there's a kind of hand-me-down Nazism. But it didn't seem as prominent in TLJ as TFA. There's nothing like the TFA rally scene. As for POCs/women, I thought they came off all right. I've seen worse.

Lindsay Ellis just uploaded this video essay wondering what exactly is the First Order ideology:

If The First Order are explicitly Nazis then having Captain Phasma leading a group of Stromtroopers through Disneyland and making a speech to parkgoers  is very weird indeed.

Edited June 11, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Cobalt Stargazer]

2 hours ago, stealinghome said:

The somewhat cheeky answer to this is that it depends on whether the viewer is a member of the alt-right/so inclined or not. For alt-right/so inclined viewers, the fact that the movie features several women and people of color is enough to make it a "SJW love fest." Because featuring anything other than straight white men in leading roles is a "SJW agenda," doncha know. (And yes, those people ignore the fact that ONLY fronting straight white men is also a political agenda. I didn't say they were rational or logical, or even particularly smart.)

I DO get a kick out of the twisted logic of these people, because it's hilarious that those who scream "SJW are ruining Star Wars! SJW are ruining Star Wars!" are blaming SJW for the box office failure of a movie that...fronts a straight white guy. The ONLY movie since TFA to front a straight white guy, mind!

Except that the other side of the argument is just as illogical, and that's what started this conversation in the first place. The main criticism of TLJ I've seen is that the Poe, Rey, Rose, Finn and Holdo do things wrong, make mistakes and are generally fallible. Because of course straight white guys just suck so much that it'd be fine for them to screw everything up, but any indication that women and people of color don't do everything perfectly at all times means the movie is right wing propaganda. We can talk about double standards and privilege and that's fine, but that's their argument, that only some people should be portrayed as having flaws. And never mind that in-universe Han helped bring Kylo Ren into existence (although if we follow the aforementioned 'logic' I'm talking about it figures that one of those evil straight white men would do something so terrible), what's really problematic is that Finn was going to run off and look for Rey.

[afterbite]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

If The First Order are explicitly Nazis then having Captain Phasma leading a group of Stromtroopers through Disneyland and making a speech to parkgoers  is very weird indeed.

This has always been an interesting disconnect for me. I remember being a little kid and spending 2 weeks perfecting my Darth Vader sound effects so that I could make the perfect ventilator noises when wearing my Halloween costume. He's an awesome, iconic villain, but when we meet him, he's like the Adolf Eichmann of the Empire (there may be a better comparison, so apologies if I didn't chose the correct Nazi). Everything about him (until 'let me look at you with my own eyes') is straight up evil, but we embrace the awesomeness of the character design, red light saber, voice, etc., and don't give too much thought to the rest. I'm pretty sure that a large proportion of people who wear his shirts, get him tattooed, stan him, etc., do so because he's a badass, not because they're supporting his ideology.

It's always been weird. Just a really weird, really interesting cultural phenomenon.

(Full disclaimer: I own at least one DV tee shirt - the Warning: Choking Hazard one, and feel no shame.)

[VCRTracking]

1 minute ago, afterbite said:

This has always been an interesting disconnect for me. I remember being a little kid and spending 2 weeks perfecting my Darth Vader sound effects so that I could make the perfect ventilator noises when wearing my Halloween costume. He's an awesome, iconic villain, but when we meet him, he's like the Adolf Eichmann of the Empire (there may be a better comparison, so apologies if I didn't chose the correct Nazi). Everything about him (until 'let me look at you with my own eyes') is straight up evil, but we embrace the awesomeness of the character design, red light saber, voice, etc., and don't give too much thought to the rest. I'm pretty sure that a large proportion of people who wear his shirts, get him tattooed, stan him, etc., do so because he's a badass, not because they're supporting his ideology.

It's always been weird. Just a really weird, really interesting cultural phenomenon.

(Full disclaimer: I own at least one DV tee shirt - the Warning: Choking Hazard one, and feel no shame.)

Here's an excerpt of when George Lucas interviewed by Bill Moyers in 1999:
 

Quote

 

BILL MOYERS: I’ve had psychotherapists tell me that they use “Star Wars” sometimes to deal with the problems of their child patients. And they’ve said that the most popular character among the children is Darth Vader.

GEORGE LUCAS: Well, children love power because children are the powerless. And so their fantasies all center on having power. And who’s more powerful than Darth Vader, you know? And, some, you know, will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he’s the good guy. But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader’s more powerful than he is.

BILL MOYERS: Did you feel pow …

GEORGE LUCAS: And as time goes on, you discover that he is more powerful because he’s the — he’s the ultimate father who is all powerful.

 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

16 minutes ago, afterbite said:

This has always been an interesting disconnect for me. I remember being a little kid and spending 2 weeks perfecting my Darth Vader sound effects so that I could make the perfect ventilator noises when wearing my Halloween costume. He's an awesome, iconic villain, but when we meet him, he's like the Adolf Eichmann of the Empire (there may be a better comparison, so apologies if I didn't chose the correct Nazi). Everything about him (until 'let me look at you with my own eyes') is straight up evil, but we embrace the awesomeness of the character design, red light saber, voice, etc., and don't give too much thought to the rest. I'm pretty sure that a large proportion of people who wear his shirts, get him tattooed, stan him, etc., do so because he's a badass, not because they're supporting his ideology.

Quoted for truth, and in my opinion one of the mistakes modern fandom has made is to attempt to mesh real life issues with what plays out on screen, and not just Star Wars. I don't think anyone who likes Darth Vader as a character or thinks he's cool has a Nazi flag in their living room, just like I don't think any of the ten million Loki fangirls on the internet think that 'mewling quim' is a pick up line. The inability to separate the two things is why fandom gets such a bad rap, both with its participants and otherwise.

[stealinghome]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Except that the other side of the argument is just as illogical, and that's what started this conversation in the first place. The main criticism of TLJ I've seen is that the Poe, Rey, Rose, Finn and Holdo do things wrong, make mistakes and are generally fallible. Because of course straight white guys just suck so much that it'd be fine for them to screw everything up, but any indication that women and people of color don't do everything perfectly at all times means the movie is right wing propaganda. We can talk about double standards and privilege and that's fine, but that's their argument, that only some people should be portrayed as having flaws. And never mind that in-universe Han helped bring Kylo Ren into existence (although if we follow the aforementioned 'logic' I'm talking about it figures that one of those evil straight white men would do something so terrible), what's really problematic is that Finn was going to run off and look for Rey.

I can’t speak for the arguments you’ve seen against TLJ, but generally speaking what you just outlined is not the same critiques of the film’s handling of race/gender that I’ve seen. Speaking personally, I’ve never made the argument that the movie is regressive because women and PoC screw up. I think the movie is regressive largely because it sacrifices Rey’s character arc to make the movie all about exploring Kylo Ren’s character, and to a somewhat lesser degree Luke—I’ve used this analogy before I think, but like Season 2 of Supergirl, it’s a piece of media that thinks it’s about a woman but is really about a man—and kind of character assassinates Rey in the process. It also makes Finn pretty tangential to the story so that Rey can spend most of her screentime with the man who maimed him (and ngl, bringing in Rose while creating Rey/Kylo Ren sexual tension makes it look like someone got cold feet on the interracial relationship TFA seemed to be hinting at). To me, those are different critiques than saying “women/PoC are flawed in TLJ.” The latter is about the characters within the narrative, but the former is about the architecture of the narrative itself.

I mean, I have other critiques of the movie, but those are the race/gender-focused ones!

[Raja]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Quoted for truth, and in my opinion one of the mistakes modern fandom has made is to attempt to mesh real life issues with what plays out on screen, and not just Star Wars. I don't think anyone who likes Darth Vader as a character or thinks he's cool has a Nazi flag in their living room, just like I don't think any of the ten million Loki fangirls on the internet think that 'mewling quim' is a pick up line. The inability to separate the two things is why fandom gets such a bad rap, both with its participants and otherwise.

I don't think it is just modern fandom. Long before the prequel trilogy was made there was an "official' Lucas approved Role Playing Game. And in the instructions for the RPG, different from other such games was explicitly stated that all Imperial characters were non player. The rules specified that you couldn't be a storm trooper, General....About the only reason that I could see for that is because the Lucas organization knew they were setting up space Nazis and didn't want kids play acting as a space  Nazi character.

[VCRTracking]

From The Hollywood Reporter:
Toxic Fandom Is Killing 'Star Wars'

also:

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, stealinghome said:

I think the movie is regressive largely because it sacrifices Rey’s character arc to make the movie all about exploring Kylo Ren’s character, and to a somewhat lesser degree Luke—I’ve used this analogy before I think, but like Season 2 of Supergirl, it’s a piece of media that thinks it’s about a woman but is really about a man—and kind of character assassinates Rey in the process. It also makes Finn pretty tangential to the story so that Rey can spend most of her screentime with the man who maimed him (and ngl, bringing in Rose while creating Rey/Kylo Ren sexual tension makes it look like someone got cold feet on the interracial relationship TFA seemed to be hinting at). To me, those are different critiques than saying “women/PoC are flawed in TLJ.” The latter is about the characters within the narrative, but the former is about the architecture of the narrative itself.

Personally, I'd rather Rey had killed Kylo on sight, but that was never going to happen since for good or ill he's the main antagonist now. I don't know anything about Supergirl since I haven't watched it, but I think at some point there should be an explanation for why Ren is the way he is, outside of 'just because.' 'Just because' would be fine too, I guess, although it's a cheat IMO given who his parents were. He's a terrible character within the narrative because of his actions, but he's a terrible villain outside of it because he doesn't even have Vader's ideology, as twisted as it is. Like Killmonger from Black Panther, he won't be happy until he's burned everything down, and with less reason.

As for Rey/Finn or Rey/Kylo...would it hurt anything if she stayed single? I'm an avid fan of going where chemistry leads, and it's just my luck that I really enjoyed Rey's interactions with Luke and would have been interested in seeing that explored, but that's because I'm trash and it can't happen now anyway. Character-wise, I don't think her relationship with Finn has edged into romantic territory quite yet, and Kylo deserves to be paired with a headstone, not the franchise's new heroine. It seemed like they were beginning a chemistry test with Poe at the end of the film, since he was all 'How're you doing?' at her when they first met, but Oscar Isaac makes him seem like he could start making out with anyone at any time and it wouldn't be shocking. But I'm less interested in seeing Rey have a relationship than I am in her figuring out this business of being a Jedi, so let her stay single for a while, not wonder about if she's going to have a boyfriend soon.

[VCRTracking]

5 hours ago, stealinghome said:

I can’t speak for the arguments you’ve seen against TLJ, but generally speaking what you just outlined is not the same critiques of the film’s handling of race/gender that I’ve seen. Speaking personally, I’ve never made the argument that the movie is regressive because women and PoC screw up. I think the movie is regressive largely because it sacrifices Rey’s character arc to make the movie all about exploring Kylo Ren’s character, and to a somewhat lesser degree Luke—I’ve used this analogy before I think, but like Season 2 of Supergirl, it’s a piece of media that thinks it’s about a woman but is really about a man—and kind of character assassinates Rey in the process.

And that's unfortunate for a show titled Supergirl where she is supposed to be the main character. However, the whole nine main Star Wars episodes are a saga about the Skywalkers and Rey as far as we know isn't one. That may change in Episode IX but for now she's coming in as an outsider.  She's this person of humble origin suddenly involved in this powerful family that's been crazy before she was born. Basically she's Meghan Markle! Finding out what happened with Kylo and the Jedi Temple and why Luke disappeared was important to the overall story but it also is important for Rey's hero's journey.

Edited June 12, 2018 by VCRTracking

[absnow54]

14 hours ago, stealinghome said:

I think the movie is regressive largely because it sacrifices Rey’s character arc to make the movie all about exploring Kylo Ren’s character

This! TLJ makes me so uncomfortable, because the new trilogy is being celebrated for centering around this kick ass female who is supposed to be inspiring a new generation of young females, and then, suddenly in the second film she's an apologist for an abusive boyfriend. Star Wars has always been dark. Star Wars isn't meant for kids. Bull shit. The entire Reylo story line in The Last Jedi should have only existed in fanfic. The motivation for Rey wanting to "save Ben" after witnessing him murder her mentor and maim her best friend (who is still in a coma as far as she knows) makes no sense. Ugh, I get that Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver have some UST-y chemistry, but that whole story line make me feel so gross and uncomfortable.

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, absnow54 said:

This! TLJ makes me so uncomfortable, because the new trilogy is being celebrated for centering around this kick ass female who is supposed to be inspiring a new generation of young females, and then, suddenly in the second film she's an apologist for an abusive boyfriend. Star Wars has always been dark. Star Wars isn't meant for kids. Bull shit. The entire Reylo story line in The Last Jedi should have only existed in fanfic. The motivation for Rey wanting to "save Ben" after witnessing him murder her mentor and maim her best friend (who is still in a coma as far as she knows) makes no sense. Ugh, I get that Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver have some UST-y chemistry, but that whole story line make me feel so gross and uncomfortable.

The key point to remember is, once she realises she was wrong, that Kylo Ren and Snoke were manipulating her, and Kylo Ren really is a power-mad, evil piece of shit, she doesn't hesitate to reject him. There's no equivocation or conflict in the way she takes off, then rescues the Resistance from Kylo Ren's troops, then metaphorically slams the door in his face at the end.

Yes, the storyline was troubling, but I think it was supposed to be. I don't think the real world correlations you mention were accidental. I don't think that Kylo Ren pretending to be a nice guy and then negging Rey when she rejected him was accidental. To me, the whole thing was Rian Johnson taking that UST and those 'shippers and saying 'this is fucked up. This is not romantic or healthy, and here's why.'

I do think Rey came across as overly naive about Kylo Ren, but I've said before that a part of it is because Rey spends the whole of the first two movies looking for someone else to be the Resistance's hero. First she sees Finn as a hero, then Han Solo, then she's sent to look for Luke, then Luke is an asshole to her so she looks for someone else... And here's Ben Solo pretending to be understanding and misunderstood, so she starts to think that he can be the hero the Resistance needs.

But finally, she realises the Resistance already has a hero, waiting to step up and save them. And it's her. Which is a massive step for the girl who starts off this trilogy saying she's no one, who thinks she just has to wait and survive, until her parents return. So she ends up getting the literal hero shot as she rescues them all and they gaze at her in wonder.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Danny Franks

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

The key point to remember is, once she realises she was wrong, that Kylo Ren and Snoke were manipulating her, and Kylo Ren really is a power-mad, evil piece of shit, she doesn't hesitate to reject him. There's no equivocation or conflict in the way she takes off, then rescues the Resistance from Kylo Ren's troops, then metaphorically slams the door in his face at the end.

Yes, the storyline was troubling, but I think it was supposed to be. I don't think the real world correlations you mention were accidental. I don't think that Kylo Ren pretending to be a nice guy and then negging Rey when she rejected him was accidental. To me, the whole thing was Rian Johnson taking that UST and those 'shippers and saying 'this is fucked up. This is not romantic or healthy, and here's why.'

Also there's a difference between giving someone a chance after hearing and understanding their circumstances and a woman continuing to be in an abusive relationship because they think they can "change him". Rey for me is was being the former.

I thought of other examples with the protagonist as outsider getting in someone's else drama and unraveling a mystery like Jane Eyre, Great Expectations,  In modern media there is the first Kung Fu Panda movie. Po the panda is without question the protagonist but the main story is about Master Shifu and and old student Tai Lung and their backstory. Ant Man Scott Lang in Ant Man Hank Pym and his estranged daughter Hope and the mystery of what happened to her mother.

[ursula]

6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

The key point to remember is, once she realises she was wrong, that Kylo Ren and Snoke were manipulating her, and Kylo Ren really is a power-mad, evil piece of shit, she doesn't hesitate to reject him.

TFA!Rey had got the "power-mad, evil piece of shit" bit figured out tho. Her "conflict" was literally fabricated out of thin air for this movie. And I mean literally. Out of thin, Force-Skyping airwaves. a

Would have made hella lot more sense if Rey and Ben had a previous connection of any sort - friendship, former students of Luke's academy together or even the dreaded familial. But apparently, they connected via Force Skype. And abs.

 

7 hours ago, absnow54 said:

The entire Reylo story line in The Last Jedi should have only existed in fanfic.

Pretty much a given that Rian got the Force bond idea from Tumblr.

Edited June 12, 2018 by ursula

[VCRTracking]

34 minutes ago, ursula said:

Pretty much a given that Rian got the Force bond idea from Tumblr.

 

He wrote the script before The Force Awakens was finished filming so I doubt that.

Fan fiction has characters be perfect and make all the right decisions and nothing is ever the heroes fault so The Last Jedi doesn't feel like  fic to me.

I could understand the animosity if Rey HAD fallen for Kylo and said yes when he asked her to join him or if Luke had deliberately tried to kill Kylo in his sleep but they didn't. Just showing weakness seems to be a nono for favorite characters.

Edited June 12, 2018 by VCRTracking

[stealinghome]

Quote

TFA!Rey had got the "power-mad, evil piece of shit" bit figured out tho. Her "conflict" was literally fabricated out of thin air for this movie. And I mean literally. Out of thin, Force-Skyping airwaves.

This is the thing that bothers me the most about the way TLJ set up the Rey/Kylo Ren plot. Like 48 hours before the forced Force Skype with Kylo Ren, Rey had seen Kylo a) kill his father, b) try to kill her best friend (and succeed in maiming him), c) try to kill Rey herself, and d) be party to trying to kill hundreds of people. With her own eyes. It's just nonsensical that Rey would ever fall for some sob story after that, even a little. imo that's not a character making a mistake, that's a writer making a character too stupid to live, and it's inconsistent with the ferociously loyal Rey we got in TFA.

If Rey had had no knowledge of Kylo Ren before the forced Force bond with him, I could accept that she would try to save him or whatever before realizing (surprise) he is an evil piece of shit. But Rey shouldn't have needed to "learn" that "surprise" in the first place. Surely they could have come up with a storyline that didn't make her seem as dumb as a box of rocks.

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, stealinghome said:

This is the thing that bothers me the most about the way TLJ set up the Rey/Kylo Ren plot. Like 48 hours before the forced Force Skype with Kylo Ren, Rey had seen Kylo a) kill his father, b) try to kill her best friend (and succeed in maiming him), c) try to kill Rey herself, and d) be party to trying to kill hundreds of people. With her own eyes. It's just nonsensical that Rey would ever fall for some sob story after that, even a little. imo that's not a character making a mistake, that's a writer making a character too stupid to live, and it's inconsistent with the ferociously loyal Rey we got in TFA.

If Rey had had no knowledge of Kylo Ren before the forced Force bond with him, I could accept that she would try to save him or whatever before realizing (surprise) he is an evil piece of shit. But Rey shouldn't have needed to "learn" that "surprise" in the first place. Surely they could have come up with a storyline that didn't make her seem as dumb as a box of rocks.

I would call it being a typical teenager and as I said, if TFA was her childhood, TLJ is her adolescence, with Rey being impulsive, rebellious and doing flat out dumb things based on passion and a belief that she's right and every adult is wrong. The kids you thought were perfect angels become infuriating once puberty hits. If you never did incredibly stupid things as a teenager you never regretted later when you were older, good for you.

This should shut up the "Disney is ruining Star Wars" fanboys. I love you George, you crazy bastard:

Edited June 13, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Joe]

That's... interesting. It could work, depending on the exectuion. But I very much doubt that it would.

[Perfect Xero]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

I would call it being a teenager and as I said, if TFA was her childhood, TLJ is her adolescence, with Rey being impulsive, rebellious and doing flat out dumb things based on passion and a belief that she's right. If you never did incredibly stupid things as a teenager you never regretted later when you were older, good for you.

Sure, we all became deeply invested in saving genocidal mass murderers who killed our mentor right in front of us and put our friend into a coma when he tried to protect us from them when we were teens, perhaps it's expecting too much of Rey to think that she wouldn't fall into that same trap that most young people do at some point.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Perfect Xero

[Cobalt Stargazer]

2 hours ago, stealinghome said:

If Rey had had no knowledge of Kylo Ren before the forced Force bond with him, I could accept that she would try to save him or whatever before realizing (surprise) he is an evil piece of shit. But Rey shouldn't have needed to "learn" that "surprise" in the first place. Surely they could have come up with a storyline that didn't make her seem as dumb as a box of rocks.

Except that's not necessarily stupidity, it's a lack of judgment. Which is a common trope when a character thinks they have all the answers no one else does. (Steve Rogers and Buffy Summers say hello.) And Rey stops immediately when she realizes there really is no hope where Kylo is concerned, and if she was deceived into believing there might be, finding out it's not the case is called growth. And unlike with Luke, she didn't have to lose one of her hands to figure it out.

[ursula]

38 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

And unlike with Luke, she didn't have to lose one of her hands to figure it out.

Isn't that having it backwards? Luke lost his hand trying to fight his father, not turn him. 

40 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Except that's not necessarily stupidity, it's a lack of judgment. Which is a  common trope when a character thinks they have all the answers no one else does. 

And again that's the reverse metaphor, if there's such a thing because - unlike with Rey - when Luke's Jedi Masters told him Vader was irredeemable,  they were wrong and he was right.

Basically, this defence just shows Rey's arc in TLJ as even worse than originally realized.

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

 perhaps it's expecting too much of Rey to think that she wouldn't fall into that same trap that most young people do at some point.

A mentor and best friend she knew less than a day.  When Rose risks her life saving Finn for just the same amount of time, she's "craaaaaaaaaaaaaazy". That same level of deep attachment of Rey's in such short amount of time coming from loneliness and abandonment issues I can see also her lead to connection with Ren despite his actions. Just as that fierce loyalty and devotion to the cause we saw in Poe in The Force Awakens can motivate his actions in The Last Jedi.

3 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

perhaps it's expecting too much of Rey to think that she wouldn't fall into that same trap that most young people do at some point.

It is actually too much to expect of Rey. The reason I liked Rey in TFA because she was presented the way Luke was in the first movie, as just this normal person caught up in circumstances beyond their control and hesitant to even go on an adventure.  

3 hours ago, ursula said:

Isn't that having it backwards? Luke lost his hand trying to fight his father, not turn him. 

And again that's the reverse metaphor, if there's such a thing because - unlike with Rey - when Luke's Jedi Masters told him Vader was irredeemable,  they were wrong and he was right.

Basically, this defence just shows Rey's arc in TLJ as even worse than originally realized.

She thought she could do what Luke did which was hubris, a flaw in her character I personally was very glad to see. Luke on the path of redeeming his father also came close to turning to the Dark Side, something Rey as of yet, isn't in danger, although the times we've seen her angry fighting Kylo and Luke make me hope it happens in Episode IX.

[afterbite]

8 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

A mentor and best friend she knew less than a day.  When Rose risks her life saving Finn for just the same amount of time, she's "craaaaaaaaaaaaaazy". That same level of deep attachment of Rey's in such short amount of time coming from loneliness and abandonment issues I can see also her lead to connection with Ren despite his actions.

I don't think the two can be compared. Rose saw Finn as a hero to the rebellion. He may have lost a little of his shine in person, but they went off on an adventure together. She was trying to save a friend, not a foe. The only exposure Rey had to Kylo was negative. He captured her. Attempted to torture her. Killed a man she admired in front of her. Tried to kill her. I guess a real world example would be having someone carjack you and a nice work colleague you've just met. The carjacker ties you up and throws you in the trunk. As your carjacker drives away from the scene, they participate in the bombing of other cars on the road. The carjacker kills your coworker, right in front of your eyes. The carjacker gets into a deadly fight with you that only stops because they have to flee. Then, they show up at your home. Instead of defending yourself or fleeing in terror, you start Skyping with them.

If Finn had taken on Kylo's role starting on the crosswalk, I could see her giving him the benefit of the doubt and reaching out. They hadn't known each other long, but they had a positive relationship. She would no doubt want to know his reasoning or understand why he'd done what he'd done. I absolutely do not see her looking at this dude (Kylo) that has tried to kill her, been instrumental in destroying multiple planets, etc, and going 'Oh, what a sad, lonely boy. I too am sad and lonely. We should chat."

Edited June 13, 2018 by afterbite

[JessePinkman]

I've come to realize that a large part of why I didn't enjoy TLJ (and why Disney era Star Wars, while stylistically beautiful isn't gaining traction) is inertia.

Nothing's really happened in the main movies. TLJ felt like, other than Luke dying, events you might discuss in the next movie as things that happened between that movie and the last. Even TFA seemingly kept the world in a 35 year stasis other than Leia and Han having a son. There's still the rebellion and the empire, fighting the exact same fight just with different names. And Rogue One and Solo actively don't move the saga forward at all. They were blatant money grabs (everything involving this franchise, any franchise, is a money grab obviously) based on the love and nostalgia and thirst for Star Wars content.

[absnow54]

1 hour ago, afterbite said:

If Finn had taken on Kylo's role starting on the crosswalk, I could see her giving him the benefit of the doubt and reaching out. They hadn't known each other long, but they had a positive relationship. She would no doubt want to know his reasoning or understand why he'd done what he'd done. I absolutely do not see her looking at this dude (Kylo) that has tried to kill her, been instrumental in destroying multiple planets, etc, and going 'Oh, what a sad, lonely boy. I too am sad and lonely. We should chat."

Wow, that would have been amazing if they had set up a friendship that the audience could become invested in and then BAM reveal that one is the big bad that the hero will be at odds with. I know it's a tired trope, but they haven't really done that in Star Wars aside from the time that Lando betrayed Han for 45 seconds.

 

1 hour ago, JessePinkman said:

And Rogue One and Solo actively don't move the saga forward at all. They were blatant money grabs (everything involving this franchise, any franchise, is a money grab obviously) based on the love and nostalgia and thirst for Star Wars content.

I agree with you about the new trilogy not really moving the story forward at all (in fact, who are they even trying to save since the whole fucking galaxy has abandoned the cause, and only 20 people seem to care.) but I don't mind the anthology films, because while they don't necessarily move the saga forward, they enrich parts of the story that we know well. At least I thought Rogue One did. Solo attempted to as well, but only by intersecting the expanded television universe with the cinematic one, and who knows how fare they'll even explore that given Solo's performance, unless they're going to tie in other anthology films (that's the only other reason I can imagine they're still making a Boba Fett movie.)

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, afterbite said:

I don't think the two can be compared. Rose saw Finn as a hero to the rebellion. He may have lost a little of his shine in person, but they went off on an adventure together. She was trying to save a friend, not a foe. The only exposure Rey had to Kylo was negative. He captured her. Attempted to torture her. Killed a man she admired in front of her. Tried to kill her.

I was talking about posters saying Rey should forever hate the man who put Finn in a coma despite only knowing Finn for such a short time. Rose knew Finn just as long and went in an adventure yet people call her stupid for risking her life to save him. When they both first met Finn they saw him as a Resistance hero, In Rey's case it was a lie, in Rose's case he wasn't. Finn disappointed her later when she found out he lied about being with the Resistance and attempting to run away again. Also  we the audience saw how torn up and emotional Finn got when she was captured, she did not. We also saw the First Order destroy Hosnia and kill all those people. She did not. Because of this people expect her to appreciate Finn a lot more than she actually would and consider Kylo as party to genocide when she probably thinks of him just an asshole who could be redeemed.

2 hours ago, afterbite said:

The carjacker gets into a deadly fight with you that only stops because they have to flee. Then, they show up at your home. Instead of defending yourself or fleeing in terror, you start Skyping with them.

Okay a lot of people seemed to deliberately forget Rey's immediate reaction to seeing him in the Forcebond was shooting him, the second time she yelled at him and called him a "murderous snake"! Also even though Snoke revealed he was behind it, neither she nor Kylo could explain how they were able to Forcebond in the first place. At the end of  The Force Awakens  Rey finally embraced her destiny with the Force and so the Force seemingly telling her that she has a connection with this "monster" AND she grew up hearing the legend of how Luke Skywalker turned the most evil man in the universe(the grandfather of said monster) back to the light and saved the galaxy, I could see Rey thinking "This is my destiny too."

I do get why people would hate even the idea of Rey even having any kind of closeness with Kylo, believe me. Black Widow having romantic feelings for Bruce Banner, one of the sweetest, nicest guys in the MCU somehow "destroys her character" is something I will never understand but being anti-Reylo is something I do!

Edited June 13, 2018 by VCRTracking

[calliope1975]

Plus Rey got to hang out with Kylo's super cool cranky Dad for a bit, and briefly met his awesome Mom. I would be curious how those two produced such a disappointment, and maybe would think there's something redeemable about him. Until she realized there wasn't. 

[Perfect Xero]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I was talking about posters saying Rey should forever hate the man who put Finn in a coma despite only knowing Finn for such a short time. Rose knew Finn just as long and went in an adventure yet people call her stupid for risking her life to save him. When they both first met Finn they saw him as a Resistance hero, In Rey's case it was a lie, in Rose's case he wasn't. Finn disappointed her later when she found out he lied about being with the Resistance and attempting to run away again. Also  we the audience saw how torn up and emotional Finn got when she was captured, she did not. We also saw the First Order destroy Hosnia and kill all those people. She did not. Because of this people expect her to appreciate Finn a lot more than she actually would and consider Kylo as party to genocide when she probably thinks of him just an asshole who could be redeemed.

You're suggesting that no one has informed Rey that the First Order destroyed multiple planets that served as the seat of the Republic? I feel like this is the sort of news that someone might have shared with her before sending her off to get Luke Skywalker out of exile to help fight Kylo Ren and the First Order.

As to Rose and Finn, I'm sorry but where is the complaint that she's only known Finn for a short time? The major complaint is that her plan (if it can even be called that) was completely ridiculous and should have resulted in the near immediate death of herself, Finn, and the entire Resistance.

[VCRTracking]

8 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

You're suggesting that no one has informed Rey that the First Order destroyed multiple planets that served as the seat of the Republic? I feel like this is the sort of news that someone might have shared with her before sending her off to get Luke Skywalker out of exile to help fight Kylo Ren and the First Order.

No I'm sure someone told her about it and was horrified. Apparently though people think Rey was also told "Kylo Ren built Starkiller Base all by himself, chose the Hosnian system as a target, ordered Starkiller to fire" and are now surprised she isn't angry at him about it.

12 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

As to Rose and Finn, I'm sorry but where is the complaint that she's only known Finn for a short time? The major complaint is that her plan (if it can even be called that) was completely ridiculous and should have resulted in the near immediate death of herself, Finn, and the entire Resistance.

But it didn't.  It was also a desperate and impulsive act to try to save someone she grew to care about and if Finn had done that to save Rey people think it was brave and romantic.

[Perfect Xero]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

But it didn't.  It was also a desperate and impulsive act to try to save someone she grew to care about and if Finn had done that to save Rey people think it was brave and romantic.

It didn't only because Skywalker Ex Machina showed up, literally, out of thin air AND the Resistance suddenly discovered a back door at the exact same time. (And the movie doesn't even attempt to explain why the First Order didn't simply kill or capture Rose and Finn after the crash).

This is a movie that is, essentially, built around showing us that all of these risky, longshot plans that our heroes come up with actually suck and should fail. You can't redeem the bad guy. The money hungry rogue will totally sell you out. Failure to communicate with your troops leads to them doing desperate things/you should blindly follow orders no matter how suicidal they seem.

Crash your ship into an ally's ship while he's trying to stop the enemy super weapon* from destroying your friends, leaving both of you defenseless near the enemy position in a flat white field even as the enemy blows the door off your base, and for some reason everything works out just fine.

*I'm not entirely clear as to why Rose doesn't take out the laser herself, since she managed to get that close, but maybe I'm forgetting something to explain that.

[VCRTracking]

The original trilogy was always fairly simple in both plot and characters. It was criticized that for but that's what also made it so accessible to so many.

With the movies that came afterward George Lucas and Rian Johnson both wanted to introduce complexity into Star Wars and received backlash.  Lucas in terms of how the universe worked in both a societal level where the Jedi were undone by their strict adherence to outdated orthodoxy and the democratic Galactic Republic collapsed due to corruption of it's ideals and the Force now involves a symbiotic relationship with microorganisms.  Rian went for more complexity in terms of storytelling and psychology. It isn't simple we're supposed to side with Poe against Holdo or Luke shouldn't because he's the hero and would never fail or doubt himself and Kylo Ren is just the bad guy that should be killed and outrageous plans somehow succeed in the end because the good guys came up with them.

Now some people say Star Wars should have been like The Force Awakens and just been the old movies with a different That the OT is now the only "true" Star Wars. That's fine for them but if Star Wars had stayed the same it would just be something I have fond nostalgia for like the cartoons I grew up watching but have no relevance to me as an adult.

Edited June 14, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Zuleikha]

With the movies that came afterward George Lucas and Rian Johnson both wanted to introduce complexity into Star Wars and received backlash. 

Because complexity isn't a good in and of itself and simplicity isn't a bad. What matters is how well the story is told. Lucas had a great story in the prequels, but he told it poorly. Clone Wars shows how his ideas could work and be told well.

Rian Johnson didn't actually introduce complexity because his only ideas are either things that were there from day 1 (the Force was NEVER just about the Skywalkers) or apparently were just "f--k you fans for wanting continuity with the first movie." F-- you, fans, is not a story. 

TFA's similarities to the old movie are an exaggeration. It had some similar set pieces, but the actual story was very different. And the actual story was good and interesting.

[Perfect Xero]

Great story idea time: Leia's absence in Ep IX will be explained by revealing that Leia had been sexually assaulting her subordinates all along. This is hinted at in TLJ I when Leia and Holdo stand over the unconscious body of Poe and comment on how "cute" he is. This would add a nice layer of complexity to he story, rather than the simplistic, nostalgia fueled portrayal of Leia as a good person and a good leader!

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Great story idea time: Leia's absence in Ep IX will be explained by revealing that Leia had been sexually assaulting her subordinates all along. This is hinted at in TLJ I when Leia and Holdo stand over the unconscious body of Poe and comment on how "cute" he is. This would add a nice layer of complexity to he story, rather than the simplistic, nostalgia fueled portrayal of Leia as a good person and a good leader!

Actually Holdo said "That one's a troublemaker. I like him." and Leia said "Me too" in a maternal way. So Leia protecting her "kids" Poe, Finn, Rey would be a good way for her to die.

Edited June 18, 2018 by VCRTracking

[VCRTracking]

9 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Rian Johnson didn't actually introduce complexity because his only ideas are either things that were there from day 1 (the Force was NEVER just about the Skywalkers) or apparently were just "f--k you fans for wanting continuity with the first movie." F-- you, fans, is not a story. 

TFA's similarities to the old movie are an exaggeration. It had some similar set pieces, but the actual story was very different. And the actual story was good and interesting.

I liked the characters in TFA a lot but I also felt too often they were designed to be.  It felt like overcompensating to win over alienated audiences who didn't feel a connection with the main characters of the prequels.

Because of that and that it wasn't the exact same story as A New Hope, there were enough similarities in terms of plot structure and set pieces in TFA where it became almost meta textual that I welcomed in TLJ the characters being more flawed and imperfect and defying where the story was expected to go.

Edited June 18, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Perfect Xero]

39 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Actually Holdo said "That one's a troublemaker. I like him." and Leia said "Me too" in a maternal way. So Leia protecting her "kids" Poe, Finn, Rey would be a good way for her to die.

No way, Leia protecting people is what we expect based on her behavior in the childish OT films where characters were boring and predictable! We need an awesome twist like Leia being a predator who abuses her authority to really add some layers and nuance to the story. Real people in positions of authority are often revealed to have been abusing their power, it happens all the time, who better to explore that sort of dynamic with than the key Rebel political figure of the OT? The leadership of the Rebels/Resistance always being portrayed as good people is just too boring and predictable, if they don't break away from this lame Fights Space Nazis = Good dynamic, the franchise will never grow.

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

No way, Leia protecting people is what we expect based on her behavior in the childish OT films where characters were boring and predictable! We need an awesome twist like Leia being a predator who abuses her authority to really add some layers and nuance to the story. Real people in positions of authority are often revealed to have been abusing their power, it happens all the time, who better to explore that sort of dynamic with than the key Rebel political figure of the OT? The leadership of the Rebels/Resistance always being portrayed as good people is just too boring and predictable, if they don't break away from this lame Fights Space Nazis = Good dynamic, the franchise will never grow.

A pilot who can shoot down 9 TIE fighters in under 30 seconds being arrogant and too overconfident wasn't a shocking twist to me.

The beauty of the OT and especially the first movie is even though the characters were archetypes and it was a simple fairy tale, it unfolded in a very natural way.  Lucas was following Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey structure but it didn't feel like it was ticking boxes like say, Willow.  As the story went along you got to know them more and see new sides of them as they encountered one situation after another. When they met each other they didn't get along at first and would argue because they were different people from different backgrounds. As they go through this crazy adventure together they bond. The great surprise of Han returning to save Luke during the Death Star battle was both unexpected but also had been set up enough where it felt natural.

Edited June 18, 2018 by VCRTracking