The Star Wars Saga

[Joe]

I thought it was Hulk, but I looked for 1977 instead of just '77. :)

[rmontro]

I just watched The Last Jedi, and I have to say I enjoyed it more than I expected to.  I don't think there's a Star Wars movie I didn't enjoy in some way or other.

But I'm not a huge Star Wars fan.  I actually prefer Star Trek.  It's struck me recently that this actually helps me enjoy the movies.  I think some people are so into Star Wars, that they are unable to enjoy them.  They build up their expectations too high, and they get very emotionally invested into what they want to happen, and they get disappointed easily.  I think I can enjoy the Star Wars movies, because on some level, I just don't care that much.  I saw the first Star Wars trilogy in the theater when it originally came out.  And these films can usually evoke enough of that feeling that I can enjoy them and have a good time.

But Star Wars is not my obsession, or my religion or anything like that.  These are summer blockbuster movies, and I don't expect much beyond that.  Are they the best movies ever?  No.  Would I have preferred to see Luke be more upbeat, and maybe actually show up on the planet to face down Kylo Ren?  Yes.  But because I'm not a superfan, it doesn't ruin my life if that doesn't happen.  You know?

[VCRTracking]

No idea where Abrams is going to take Episode IX but looking at his previous works might give some clues.

[benteen]

I'm predicting a lot of plot holes, cheat codes and homages to more talented filmmakers.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 7/10/2018 at 5:00 AM, ursula said:

Gee, isn't it great that Johnson didn't ruin a great character because the only possible way to imagine including Lando was as a criminal? We should totally give him props for not following through with his instincts to foully depict a hero played by a black character.

Lando actually had a deal with Vader in Empire Strikes Back so it wouldn't have been entirely without precedent. When he was running Cloud City, he had some illegal operations going, and he makes a bargain to help Vader capture Luke, only DV 'altered' the deal at the last minute by taking Leia and Chewbacca into custody. It was really pretty much Lando's fault that Han ended up as part of Jabba the Hutt's living room decor, so there's that.

[ursula]

5 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Lando actually had a deal with Vader in Empire Strikes Back so it wouldn't have been entirely without precedent. When he was running Cloud City, he had some illegal operations going, and he makes a bargain to help Vader capture Luke, only DV 'altered' the deal at the last minute by taking Leia and Chewbacca into custody. It was really pretty much Lando's fault that Han ended up as part of Jabba the Hutt's living room decor, so there's that.

Well, it's weird to me that you're rehashing the plot of a movie that came out almost 40 years ago like a 'gotcha' point that no one's already aware of. 

Yes, I know Lando's actions and the reasons for them. (More on that later). I also know that Han initially ran from the Rebellion because he valued money and safety over his newfound friends. I know that Luke decided not to help Ben save Princess Leia and it was his uncle's and aunt's deaths that changed his mind. But I think most people will not describe Han Solo as a mercenary and coward or Luke Skywalker as a feckless wimp. Like most characters in any story, they grew and evolved and became different people in the span of the OT.

So did Lando.

And back to his actions and reasons: Yes, he made a bargain with Vader to bring Luke etc into Imperial custody. But there were no "some illegal operation" going on. Unless by 'illegal operation' (way to besmirch Lando further), you're referring to how Lando had so far managed to keep the Empire's oppressive presence out of Bespin. He was a legitimate ruler, being hardballed by a totalitarian government to either give up the Rebellion members or have his City be occupied by Imperial forces. It was a hard position to be - betray his personal friend or the people who trusted him to lead and protect them. 

 

Also can I point out that somehow people have managed to find patricidal Kylo Ren a victim of his own murdered father yet still struggle with understanding / sympathizing with Lando. The fact that all Lando's nuances tends to go over most of the audience's head - while people literally invent reasons to woobify Kylo - has less to do with what the movie clearly showed and more to do with the biases that is usually applied to characters by race. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

Well, it's weird to me that you're rehashing the plot of a movie that came out almost 40 years ago like a 'gotcha' point that no one's already aware of. 

Yes, I know Lando's actions and the reasons for them. (More on that later). I also know that Han initially ran from the Rebellion because he valued money and safety over his newfound friends. I know that Luke decided not to help Ben save Princess Leia and it was his uncle's and aunt's deaths that changed his mind. But I think most people will not describe Han Solo as a mercenary and coward or Luke Skywalker as a feckless wimp. Like most characters in any story, they grew and evolved and became different people in the span of the OT.

So did Lando.

And back to his actions and reasons: Yes, he made a bargain with Vader to bring Luke etc into Imperial custody. But there were no "some illegal operation" going on. Unless by 'illegal operation' (way to besmirch Lando further), you're referring to how Lando had so far managed to keep the Empire's oppressive presence out of Bespin. He was a legitimate ruler, being hardballed by a totalitarian government to either give up the Rebellion members or have his City be occupied by Imperial forces. It was a hard position to be - betray his personal friend or the people who trusted him to lead and protect them.

Just for the record, the term 'Skywalker whining gene' has been around for almost as long as the first movie has, and it's applied to the younger version of Luke and Kylo in equal measure. I suppose there is some woobifying of the latter, but there's an equal if not greater amount of utter loathing for him, and I'm happy to say I'm one of the people who loathes him. If anything, it's far more character-destroying to have Luke hide out on a remote island and not only do nothing but not even get in contact with anyone who might be able to do something. In comparison, Luke had choices that Lando didn't, and his choice was to sit on his thumbs in the middle of the ocean.

And I didn't think I was imparting new information, but within the fictional universe of Star Wars unless you're living firmly under the Empire's (or the First Order's, whichever) boot, you're at least a problem that needs to be brought to heel if not an out and out criminal. Galen Erso fled to a remote planet with his wife and daughter to get out from under their thumb, and they brought him back to continue his work after killing his wife and being unable to find the kid. If Lando was foolish in believing that Vader would adhere to the spirit of their agreement rather than just the letter, which was to allow him to run Cloud City as he chose, he was no more foolish than Galen in thinking he could run far enough that Orson Krennic couldn't find him. Doesn't make him a bad guy, he just didn't have any other choice but to go along, and in comparison allowing Han to be taken by the Empire was the lesser evil. I doubt Han thought so, but Lando had no way out.

[ursula]

47 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

If anything, it's far more character-destroying to have Luke hide out on a remote island and not only do nothing but not even get in contact with anyone who might be able to do something. 

Again, stating the obvious? TLJ's Luke is probably the most polarising aspect of the movie. I mean when Luke Hamill himself has an issue with Jake Luke Skywalker...?

If you're saying that RJ gave a shitty portrayal of Luke Skywalker, so it makes sense that he would think of giving a shittier portrayal of Lando - then you won't get any argument from me there. 

Edited July 14, 2018 by ursula

[VCRTracking]

 Lando appeared on Star Wars Rebels (voiced by Billy Dee Williams) in the episode "Idiot's Array" and he was basically in pre-"responsible leader" and was how Han described him to Leia a con man, gambler and a "scoundrel".

 

What's great about the episode is it's Lando smooth talking and double dealing criminal you shouldn't trust and really being the epitome of a "charming rogue" we imagined him being but didn't really see much of in the OT. So sue Rian for initially thinking it would be fun to have that Lando in his story before thinking better of it when Billy Dee himself happily played him that way in another medium.

I'm sure  JJ won't want to lean in on that either and his Lando will be the respected former Rebel general and war veteran that he didn't make Han. Maybe he'll have him pilot the Falcon and leading the Rebel fleet into a victory in another big space battle and everybody will be happy.

Well almost everybody...

Edited July 14, 2018 by VCRTracking

[ursula]

23 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

So sue Rian for initially thinking it would be fun to have that Lando in his story before thinking better of it when Billy Dee himself happily played him that way in another medium.

So... it's not Johnson's stagnant, problematic, prejudiced imagination that was the problem but it was really Billy Dee's fault for portraying a Lando that was appropriate for his stage of development? 

[ChelseaNH]

So, any chance we'll see Ewoks again in the next movie?

[Joe]

Here's what I see. Luke had a moment of weakness in planning to kill Ben. Upon realising his mistake, he took off for the back end of nowhere. Upon getting there, he dismantled his X-Wing and dropped it in the sea. At some point, he cut himself off from the Force. Even if he did want to return to the galaxy, he couldn't.

4 hours ago, ursula said:

So... it's not Johnson's stagnant, problematic, prejudiced imagination that was the problem but it was really Billy Dee's fault for portraying a Lando that was appropriate for his stage of development? 

Johnson's imagination isn't any of those things. It's pretty good. Not perfect, but at least he doesn't rehash the same issues ad nauseum.

[VCRTracking]

[Perfect Xero]

On 7/14/2018 at 1:44 PM, VCRTracking said:

 Lando appeared on Star Wars Rebels (voiced by Billy Dee Williams) in the episode "Idiot's Array" and he was basically in pre-"responsible leader" and was how Han described him to Leia a con man, gambler and a "scoundrel".

 

 

What's great about the episode is it's Lando smooth talking and double dealing criminal you shouldn't trust and really being the epitome of a "charming rogue" we imagined him being but didn't really see much of in the OT. So sue Rian for initially thinking it would be fun to have that Lando in his story before thinking better of it when Billy Dee himself happily played him that way in another medium.

I'm not sure what Lando's characterization in a series set before ANH has to do with TLJ?

[Joe]

In possibly less controversial news, everyone remember Backstroke of the West? It has a sequel, Star War The Eighth Gathers: The Final Hopeless Situation. Good fun. You might take the captions as metacommentary, or you might just laugh at them. Either way, enjoy.

[Katsullivan]

With some of the recent rumours floating around on casting, I'm putting money on the table now that JJ is going to revert back to his original plan for Rey Skywalker. 

And we're going to find out all that Reylo cosmic connection was familial. ????

[BetterButter]

Carrie Fisher to Appear in 'Star Wars: Episode IX'

[VCRTracking]

I know besides the deleted scene in The Force Awakens where she sends someone to Hosnia there are scenes of her and Maz Kanata cut out.

There's probably a lot of unused footage of her at the Resistance Base during the Starkiller battle and they're going to re-purpose it for the big battle in Ep IX.

Edited July 27, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Wickedeve]

I'm profoundly relieved that they didn't recast Princess Leia!

[Spartan Girl]

On July 17, 2018 at 10:41 PM, Katsullivan said:

With some of the recent rumours floating around on casting, I'm putting money on the table now that JJ is going to revert back to his original plan for Rey Skywalker. 

And we're going to find out all that Reylo cosmic connection was familial. ????

I wouldn't hate that..but even if that doesn't happen, I'll be okay.

[VCRTracking]

I'm also happy that Richard E. Grant has a role. Chances are he'll be typecast as a bad guy but I always loved his heroic turn as the Scarlet Pimpernel on A&E.

[Perfect Xero]

I still think that in TFA JJ was setting up the idea that Rey is the reincarnation of Anakin Skywalker, with Maz's lines about seeing the same eyes in different people and Anakin's saber/Obi-Wan calling to her.

So I hope that's where he's going in IX.

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, Perfect Xero said:

I still think that in TFA JJ was setting up the idea that Rey is the reincarnation of Anakin Skywalker, with Maz's lines about seeing the same eyes in different people and Anakin's saber/Obi-Wan calling to her.

 

I think that more simply, he was setting up the idea that she was a Skywalker. So she was called by Anakin Skywalker's light-saber, the same saber that his son (her father) wielded and lost (with his hand) in Bespin.  It's a poetic counterpoint to Kylo who salvaged Vader's broken helmet from goodness-knows-where. While Rey found his lightsaber like Arthur pulling the sword out of the stone. At the end of the movie, the saber comes to her.

That scene in TLJ where Anakin's saber breaks under their pulls was done to retcon what was established in the previous movie - that Rey had a stronger claim to the Skywalker legacy. It was Rian Johnson metaphorically putting Rey in her place as lesser to Kylo. 

[Joe]

I suppose I'm all right with Carrie returning, if the family is. But I don't want Ren to kill her. I'm all right with Leia fading away into the Force, like Luke did, but not actually killed. The thought of it makes me choke up, but I'll be all right.

Funnily enough, I've changed my mind since she died. My original idea was for her in a ship to kamikazi into another ship, but smile and fade away just before impact. Rian gave us both elements of that, but not together.

[VCRTracking]

15 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

I think that more simply, he was setting up the idea that she was a Skywalker. So she was called by Anakin Skywalker's light-saber, the same saber that his son (her father) wielded and lost (with his hand) in Bespin.  It's a poetic counterpoint to Kylo who salvaged Vader's broken helmet from goodness-knows-where. While Rey found his lightsaber like Arthur pulling the sword out of the stone. At the end of the movie, the saber comes to her.

That scene in TLJ where Anakin's saber breaks under their pulls was done to retcon what was established in the previous movie - that Rey had a stronger claim to the Skywalker legacy. It was Rian Johnson metaphorically putting Rey in her place as lesser to Kylo. 

If that were true wouldn't the lightsaber go to Kylo instead of them seemingly have equal claim to it? The fact that Kylo is established from the beginning as very powerful and she is still able to keep it from him doesn't show she's "lesser" than him. She also wakes up first and leaves with the pieces. That lightsaber(which had slaughtered children) isn't some magical thing that only goes to the worthy user.  To me that moment in TFA was less she "is a Skywalker" and more "she has the Force".  Yeah, we saw her use the Jedi mind trick earlier but this was the "OMG hero moment". Also if you rewatch the scene, because it was acted on by two people, the lightsaber flew with such unexpected force(no pun intended) that it surprised Kylo and instead of catching it he got out of the way and Rey(who was right behind him) caught it. Both were calling it from the same direction. In TLJ they it was being pulled from opposite ends.

Maybe Abrams will decide to make her a Skywalker after all but I don't think she has to be to be important. I think the better story is she's the one who ends the Skywalker line once and for all! We had two good Skywalkers and two bad ones. It evened out so lets not take chances with any next generations!

Edited July 28, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Katsullivan]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

the lightsaber flew with such unexpected force(no pun intended) that it surprised Kylo and instead of catching it he got out of the way and Rey(who was right behind him) caught it. 

We are looking at the same gif, aren't we? The light-saber literally hits him in the face and knocks him off-balance. It's not Kylo ducking because it's coming too fast, it's the light-saber basically telling him the Force equivalent of "get the F**k out of my way".

[VCRTracking]

It doesn't hit him at all.  If it did it would have knocked him backwards instead of to the side. We would have also heard a loud smacking sound effect! Anyone else watching that scene actually think the lightsaber even made physical contact with him?

Edited July 28, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Browncoat]

It looks to me like he sees it coming straight for his head and he dodges out of the way. 

[ursula]

lol. so I guess this gif is the mirror of erised or something but it's plain as day to me that the lightsaber is flying straight into his pov, and knocking him hard enough for his neck to span back. we see the smack twice. 

From a meta view, Kylo being shown as pathetic and not-worthy was very much his theme in TFA so him getting thwacked in the head by the lightsaber he tried to claim is the kind of thing no one would have debated about pre-TLJ. Rian's TLJ gives him the sexy scar (the scar is basically moved around his face to make it aesthetically appealing), the shirtless scenes, and the sex via hand-touching. LOL.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that TLJ!Kylo Ren is basically Draco-In-Leather-Pants. 

[VCRTracking]

Well here's the actual clip and I still don't see it hitting him. He clearly moves out of the way as it flies past his face.

 

More to the point,  the lightsaber not immediately going to Kylo wasn't because Rey was also grabbing it because they were standing in the same direction. I think Kylo was weakened by Chewie's blaster. He had Force-pushed Rey away when she drew the blaster on him but he would have beaten Finn quicker if he had at full strength. Finn also cut him on the shoulder and I think when he did try to call the lightsaber to him, he was too weak and so he needed to concentrate. By the second time, Rey called the lightsaber to her.

Edited July 29, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Katsullivan]

Yep, in the video, he's clearly clocked at 1:31. The lightsaber basically hits the 4th wall which is supposed to be Kylo's viewpoint. It's also flying straight at his head, not into his grip, so there's never a question of it coming to him. 

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

I think Kylo was weakened by Chewie's blaster.

To quote Han Solo, "that's not how the Force works". It has nothing to do with Kylo being physical weak or injured. He simply wasn't as strong as Rey*. There are no prevailing factors that made Rey push him out of her mind and invade his own in the interrogation scene - she was the one who was undergoing torture and was weakened and vulnerable. The lightsaber didn't come into Kylo's hand because Rey had a stronger claim. It's that simple*.

*Or at least it was before TLJ as @ursula put it plainly, "Draco-in-Leather-Panted" him.

2 hours ago, ursula said:

The more I think about it, the more I realize that TLJ!Kylo Ren is basically Draco-In-Leather-Pants. 

??????

Edited July 29, 2018 by Katsullivan

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

Yep, in the video, he's clearly clocked at 1:31. The lightsaber basically hits the 4th wall which is supposed to be Kylo's viewpoint. It's also flying straight at his head, not into his grip, so there's never a question of it coming to him. 

Well somebody forgot to put in a sound effect of lightsaber hitting skull and Ben Burtt is usually on the ball on that(he's the one who created the famous Indiana Jones punch sound effect).

Kylo dodged it like W Bush dodging a shoe. . He has good reflexes. I also said in my previous post Rey called the lightsaber to her.

 

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

To quote Han Solo, "that's not how the Force works". It has nothing to do with Kylo being physical weak or injured.

They established in the movie Chewie's bowcaster was powerful enough to and kill an armored Stormtrooper, knocking them  into the air. Kylo took that to the stomach without falling. The Force at least in regards to moving stuff on concentration and it's hard to concentrate when you're in a lot of pain.

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

The lightsaber didn't come into Kylo's hand because Rey had a stronger claim. It's that simple*

And I'll use the Han quote too "That's not how the Force works!"

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

*Or at least it was before TLJ as @ursula put it plainly, "Draco-in-Leather-Panted" him.

3 hours ago, ursula said:

The more I think about it, the more I realize that TLJ!Kylo Ren is basically Draco-In-Leather-Pants. 

Weird that example is being used considering JK Rowling actually did canonically make Draco more sympathetic in Half Blood Prince as well as Snape in Deathly Hallows.

[ursula]

Er... I'm not sure what the point of the slo-mo is? Do you think that forreal, they film actors taking real punches? 

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Weird that example is being used considering JK Rowling actually did canonically make Draco more sympathetic in Half Blood Prince as well as Snape in Deathly Hallows.

Last I checked, in HBP, Draco wasn't parading half-naked around Harry (more's the pity ?) and DH made Snape look even more pathetic - a pathetic "nice guy" tag-along that Lily outgrew. 

 

It's hard to explain what is such a fundamental fanfiction trope to someone new, but what you need to understand is that "Draco-in-leather-pants" isn't about making Draco sympathetic. He was already sympathetic - a pathetic kind of "kick the scruffy dog" way. So was Kylo in TFA. There was even a twitter account of emo-kylo because that's how he came across as - a wannabe-Vader fanboy, complete with his stupid Vader-inspired helmet and his impractical lightsaber, someone who was clearly out of his league and being manipulated because he really was that stupid. "Draco-in-leather-pants" was about making Draco uber-relevant (moreso than Harry), uber-competent (edging into "Gary Stu" territory) and - most importantly, uber-sexy (ergo, the leather pants) in a ridiculously wish-fulfilment way that bordered on parody in comparison to the source material.

It also kind of leads to this kind of retroactive-"retelling" where incidents of Draco being humiliated or bested were made less ... pathetic. Which is probably why Rian felt so strongly about repeating the lightsaber "duel" of sorts between Rey and Kylo. It's the fanfiction equivalent of a story where Draco bests Harry in a fight, instead of being cut into half or just losing his wand before he gets a chance to cast a spell. 

Edited July 29, 2018 by ursula

[VCRTracking]

When you first watched TFA how did you feel about Kylo Ren before he took off his mask?

Edited July 29, 2018 by VCRTracking

[ursula]

The same way I felt about him after he took off his mask.

[Skyline]

On 7/17/2018 at 10:41 PM, Katsullivan said:

With some of the recent rumours floating around on casting, I'm putting money on the table now that JJ is going to revert back to his original plan for Rey Skywalker. 

And we're going to find out all that Reylo cosmic connection was familial. ????

Not gonna happen. JJ loved Rian's script so much he wished he'd directed it himself. Rey is not a Skywalker. 

[JessePinkman]

On 7/29/2018 at 12:47 AM, VCRTracking said:

When you first watched TFA how did you feel about Kylo Ren before he took off his mask?

That he was a bad Darth Vader riff. It was very "why are we doing this again?". It turns out that was sort of the point?

[Cirien]

On ‎30‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 1:29 AM, Skyline said:

Not gonna happen. JJ loved Rian's script so much he wished he'd directed it himself. Rey is not a Skywalker. 

We don't know what version he saw ( and yes 99% of the script remains the same blah blah blah) and/or he could have just have been being polite. 

[stealinghome]

I don't really care whether Rey is a Skywalker or not, so I have no dog in this fight, but: imo you could quite easily make her a Skywalker and not contradict anything we saw in TLJ. (And not even have to assume Kylo Ren is a lying liar who lies [and manipulates].)

[Joe]

I'm listening to Rey's Theme right now. Skywalker or not, that's a great piece of music. Starts off so light and fun before building into something really special.

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, Joe said:

I'm listening to Rey's Theme right now. Skywalker or not, that's a great piece of music. Starts off so light and fun before building into something really special.

I liked it because it reminded me of an Ennio Morricone western theme when I first heard it.

[benteen]

First day of shooting for Episode IX...

http://ew.com/movies/2018/08/01/j-j-abrams-star-wars-episode-ix-tweet/

Edited August 1, 2018 by benteen

[SnoGirl]

On 7/31/2018 at 8:54 AM, Joe said:

I'm listening to Rey's Theme right now. Skywalker or not, that's a great piece of music. Starts off so light and fun before building into something really special.

Rey’s theme is probably one of my favorite themes I have ever heard. And when she gets the lightsaber from Kylo in The Force Awakens, I always get chills from the music.  I might not always agree with the choices of the movies but I will always love the music. The Duel of Fates, the Skywalker Theme, Rey’s Theme are always on any playlist I make. 

[Ravenya003]

13 hours ago, benteen said:

First day of shooting for Episode IX...

http://ew.com/movies/2018/08/01/j-j-abrams-star-wars-episode-ix-tweet/

That the first official image of Episode IX is John Boyega is heartening to me. In a discussion with friends a couple of months ago over what we wanted from the last movie, I whittled it down to: 1) a Billy Dee Williams cameo and 2) for Rey and Finn to be reinstated as the leads. 

So far so good.

[VCRTracking]

It is funny that both the Canto Bight scenes and Arya's Braavos storyline in Game of Thrones were both filmed in Dubrovnik, Croatia. They're both storylines were considered boring and were not loved by fans but were necessary for the characters' development.

[Katsullivan]

On 8/2/2018 at 4:31 AM, Ravenya003 said:

That the first official image of Episode IX is John Boyega is heartening to me. In a discussion with friends a couple of months ago over what we wanted from the last movie, I whittled it down to: 1) a Billy Dee Williams cameo and 2) for Rey and Finn to be reinstated as the leads. 

So far so good.

Perfect.Whenever I think about Reylo,

Spoiler

 

I remember how much ALIAS fans wanted Sydney/Sark to be a thing and how JJ basically --- ignored them. No fan-baiting. No ambiguous scenes or moments. Nothing. He didn't "shut it down" because there was nothing to shut down. 

It also reminds me of how in TVD season 1, while Plec and Williamson were co-creators, Plec wanted Elena to kiss Damon in the season finale and Williamson didn't understood how that made sense. He basically argues that it was a nonsensical action for Elena's character to take at that point in the story. 

 

Some producers/creators don't get the difference between creating a story and creating fan-fiction of a story. 

[VCRTracking]

Something I didn't think about until reading someone post it online is, because Kylo lied and said Rey was the one who killed Snoke, her fame and reputation had to have grown in the galaxy during whatever time passes in between movies(Just so there's no misunderstanding I'm not saying it as a positive for Kylo. It was a villain move on his part)I just meant it's an interesting position for Rey to be in!

Edited August 4, 2018 by VCRTracking

[VCRTracking]

[Perfect Xero]

[VCRTracking]

Great thread I found.

Edited August 11, 2018 by VCRTracking