The Star Wars Saga

[Zuleikha]

Those are the loudest voices in knocking TLJ. People with reasonable issues like yourself are kind of drowned out and/or lumped in with the fuckwits.

I don't buy that. I think they seem like the loudest voices because they're the easy targets that defenses of TLJ always address. 

The irony for me is that one of the many things that I dislike about TLJ is that I think ultimately it DID cater to toxic men. Poe's epic f-- up is rewarded by being given the leadership he feels so entitled to and the unearned approval that he clearly craves. His storyline has a foregone conclusion. There's no acknowledgement of the possibility that he should be or would be punished for insurrection and neither movie nor character ever acknowledges the implicit sexism in his treatment of Holdo.

Luke and Kylo Ren get all the character development, with Luke getting the centerpiece hero fight that saves the day. Rey gets a lot of great screentime, but in terms of character development, she basically becomes a supporting character whose primary narrative function is to propel both Kylo Ren's and Luke's stories forward.

[Fool to cry]

'Mission: Impossible Director' Says Fan Harassment Has "Cured" Him of Wanting to Direct Star Wars Film

[Perfect Xero]

3 hours ago, Joe said:

Those are the loudest voices in knocking TLJ. People with reasonable issues like yourself are kind of drowned out and/or lumped in with the fuckwits.

Ah, but this article purports to be ignoring those racist, sexist loudest voices to address other issues people bring up, of course it then immediately suggests that most of the points that those non loudest voices bring up are rooted in "subconscious racism and stealth sexism."

[VCRTracking]

1 minute ago, Perfect Xero said:

Ah, but this article purports to be ignoring those racist, sexist loudest voices to address other issues people bring up, of course it then immediately suggests that most of the points that those non loudest voices bring up are rooted in "subconscious racism and stealth sexism."

You said you didn't read all of it.

[Perfect Xero]

Just now, VCRTracking said:

You said you didn't read all of it.

Which is why I asked if it ever went beyond that.

[VCRTracking]

It has a lot more to say and I like this part:
 

Quote

 

It’s no accident that a generation of white men, who always saw themselves as the ones being stepped on, worship their properties as the things that give them strength and lash out at those who try to make it more inclusive. There’s a whole link to anti-S.J.W. culture, etc., but the truth is I’m not really interested in going down that path. I’m actually more interested in the intersectional heart of this that speaks to the many sides of indulgence and how we place ourselves into narrative. For instance, I had a young black fan write me, fed up with narrative that only anti-S.J.W.s hated The Last Jedi and he rightfully had problems with that. But when writing about the reasons he didn’t like the film, he wrote, “For all that talk about being progressive, Finn is reduced to over-the-top comedic relief. A goofy sidekick that overreacts to everything and anything around him. He has water squirting out of him in his opening scene.”

And there it is, it comes back to indulgence and the unwillingness to feel silly. To justify it, he relies on conversations about “uneven tone” and even criticizes Rose with the logic stuff, saying, “Crashing her ship into someone else’s ship, risking the lives of your comrades, is completely tone deaf.” Again, that’s not even what tone deaf means, and I genuinely don’t want to project why that moment might bother someone, but it doesn’t matter.

There are a million really important conversations to have about representation and inclusivity, and this person actually started their email with all the same points we very much agree on. I want a Star Wars that looks like the entire world, too. It’s all I want. But what his complaints—I think—speak to, is our larger “tower of babel” language issues within it. What this gets to is the bigger question of how we see “ourselves,” within a narrative. I don’t want a litany of white Jedis, but I also don’t know what to do when someone is coming at that same argument from the place of indulgence, and I understand what they’re asking is, “I want to be a badass Jedi,” too. Which is an O.K. thing to ask! It’s all part of the spectrum of roles that need to be filled out. I also want this very much. My problem is when we don’t realize that’s what we’re talking about. Just as my problems come, in turn, when we criticize Finn, who I think has an incredible arc, but is being criticized because “this didn’t make me feel powerful.”

Understanding what we want is at the heart of everything.

For instance, I was having a conversation with one of my local bartenders I love. We’ve had a lot of lovely, spirited bar arguments. Sports. Movies. You name it. And it’s always been fun and inclusive. But The Last Jedi is the first time I have ever seen him incensed. He kept yelling at us and talking about all the things that were so “stupid” about the film, and then proclaiming that the director “clearly doesn’t understand the tone of Star Wars!” He made this point particularly about the sense of humor in the opening Poe scene. It didn’t matter that I pointed out the tone was no different from Han’s off-the-cuff joke, “everything’s fine here… how are you?” as well as a litany of other moments. He finally just yelled, “I felt like the film was making fun of me!”

And there it was. All these things that I’ve been talking about. The feeling of “being talked down to” by Holdo. The not wanting Finn to be silly. The ignoring of character arcs, the silly tone, the faux logic arguments, it all adds up into the vicarious way people place themselves into a movie. So they felt attacked by this movie…but it’s not attacking them, it’s attacking qualities of people. It’s attacking toxic masculinity. It’s attacking toxic fandom. It’s attacking all the worst parts of ourselves and asking us to do better.

But to everyone who wants the power fantasy, they can only shout in response, “this doesn’t make me feel the way I want to feel!” And that’s certainly true, but the greater truth is it’s not even attacking them within the dramatization, nor being smug, but moving right past them toward a larger message of inclusivity and love. And all the while, they never once stopped to ask themselves…

“What if all this a good thing?”

 

[Zuleikha]

To which I would say, who died and made this film critic the ultimate authority and arbiter on what message the film was sending and what is/isn't a good thing? Because Finn did NOT have an incredible arc in The Last Jedi and the movie did not, in any coherent way, create a message of inclusivity and love. And if so many reviews said the best thing about the movie was the way it said f-- you to the fans and plot points from TFA, maybe it's not at all weird that audience members would hear that and respond to that and say, "no, thanks. That's not a good substitute for a compelling story and quality character development."

[benteen]

Finn didn't have an incredible arc or a good arc in The Last Jedi.  Poe screws up things not once but twice.  Rey has an interesting storyline but the worst thing that Rian Johnson did in The Last Jedi was that he made all three of these characters less interesting.  Whatever limitations JJ Abrams has as a filmmaker (and they are considerable) at least Rey, Finn and Poe were interesting and you wanted to see more of them.  I didn't leave The Last Jedi wanting to see more of these three.

6 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

To which I would say, who died and made this film critic the ultimate authority and arbiter on what message the film was sending and what is/isn't a good thing? Because Finn did NOT have an incredible arc in The Last Jedi and the movie did not, in any coherent way, create a message of inclusivity and love. And if so many reviews said the best thing about the movie was the way it said f-- you to the fans and plot points from TFA, maybe it's not at all weird that audience members would hear that and respond to that and say, "no, thanks. That's not a good substitute for a compelling story and quality character development."

I agree with this.  The general view of critics seems to be "The Last Jedi is an amazing film and people didn't get that." 

[Katsullivan]

12 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I don't buy that. I think they seem like the loudest voices because they're the easy targets that defenses of TLJ always address. 

Slow clap.

12 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

The irony for me is that one of the many things that I dislike about TLJ is that I think ultimately it DID cater to toxic men.

I wish I could give this post a 100 likes. 

[Fool to cry]

14 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Luke and Kylo Ren get all the character development, with Luke getting the centerpiece hero fight that saves the day. Rey gets a lot of great screentime, but in terms of character development, she basically becomes a supporting character whose primary narrative function is to propel both Kylo Ren's and Luke's stories forward.

I'd agree with that if I thought her character really needed more developing but she really didn't in The Force Awakens. It's like Indiana Jones and James Bond where they don't really need to change. I'm not accusing her of being a "Mary Sue" but I do think there really wasn't anywhere for her to go. With Luke there was still a lot of room for improvement in terms of his Jedi skills and personality after the end of A New Hope.

14 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

The irony for me is that one of the many things that I dislike about TLJ is that I think ultimately it DID cater to toxic men.

I don't think toxic men love seeing  the male hero being shown as a failure and that the  woman was right and he should have listened to and obeyed her!

Edited July 6, 2018 by Fool to cry

[Fool to cry]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Finn didn't have an incredible arc or a good arc in The Last Jedi.  Poe screws up things not once but twice.  Rey has an interesting storyline but the worst thing that Rian Johnson did in The Last Jedi was that he made all three of these characters less interesting.  Whatever limitations JJ Abrams has as a filmmaker (and they are considerable) at least Rey, Finn and Poe were interesting and you wanted to see more of them. 

They were interesting in a "comfort TV" way. They were entertaining but not that deep. In a recent Nash Bridges writers reunion at ATX Festival one of them said

Quote

"The most important lesson I took from this and everybody impressed on me: Nash Bridges-and this is the heart of TV- it's cool people doing cool stuff every week. And people tune in to watch Nash Bridges kick ass and be awesome and funny and charming,

That's basically most of network TV since the beginning. And Rian Johnson came from prestige cable TV like Breaking Bad where it's very flawed anti-heroes and more novelistic on how stories unfold and characters develop as opposed to being the same week after week. The Force Awakens is more like comfort food TV and there's nothing wrong with that. I love USA shows like Monk and Psych and old Quinn Martin productions.

I voted.

(Sorry for the two posts, I thought they'd merge!)

Edited July 6, 2018 by Fool to cry

[Perfect Xero]

41 minutes ago, Fool to cry said:

I'd agree with that if I thought her character really needed more developing but she really didn't in The Force Awakens. It's like Indiana Jones and James Bond where they don't really need to change. I'm not accusing her of being a "Mary Sue" but I do think there really was't anywhere for her to go. With Luke there was still a lot of room for improvement in terms of his Jedi skills and personality after the end of A New Hope.

I don't think Toxic men love seeing other the male hero being shown as a failure and  that the  woman was right and he should have listened to and obeyed her!

It's funny because the film's central plot is, quite literally, the empowerment of the young angry toxic male, Kylo Ren, who it bends over backward to make look sympathetic and appealing.

[VCRTracking]

*fingers crossed* PleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJadePleaseletherbeMaraJade

Anyone who's seen her in The Americans knows she can be a total BADASS.

[Perfect Xero]

11 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

For instance, I was having a conversation with one of my local bartenders I love. We’ve had a lot of lovely, spirited bar arguments. Sports. Movies. You name it. And it’s always been fun and inclusive. But The Last Jedi is the first time I have ever seen him incensed. He kept yelling at us and talking about all the things that were so “stupid” about the film, and then proclaiming that the director “clearly doesn’t understand the tone of Star Wars!” He made this point particularly about the sense of humor in the opening Poe scene. It didn’t matter that I pointed out the tone was no different from Han’s off-the-cuff joke, “everything’s fine here… how are you?” as well as a litany of other moments. He finally just yelled, “I felt like the film was making fun of me!”

See, this is why I question if I should bother reading the article if these are the sort of points he makes. The "boring conversation" between Han and the Imp on the Death Star is nothing like the opening prank phone call between Poe and Hux.

Han is caught in a bad situation and tries to ward off the Imperials sending more troops by desperately answering the call and pretending to be an Imperial Officer himself. That Han's back is against the wall and his insistence that "everything is fine" after they've just had a fire fight with explosions and a roaring Wookie is so ridiculous (and obviously doomed to fail) that the hopelessness of the effort is played for comedy.

Poe, by comparison, flies out there in his X-Wing, puts the call in to Hux who is at the helm of a Star Destroyer pointed in his direction, and then smugly mocks Hux who is too comically stupid to realize that Poe is obviously trolling him. Poe's plan inexplicably works instead of Hux just blowing him out of the sky errr ... space.

I'm not sure how the author can legitimately claim that these two scenes have a similar tone, or act like the bartender was being unreasonably for not accepting this as a refutation. That the bartender gets flustered by, apparently, not having the language to articulate the difference in the style of humor to the satisfaction of a professional film critic isn't a point in the critics favor, though he's willing to twist it into one. Which is why I question if the author is actually being genuine in his supposed "open, kind, and inclusive" article about "love" of Star Wars.

[benteen]

4 hours ago, Fool to cry said:

They were interesting in a "comfort TV" way. They were entertaining but not that deep. In a recent Nash Bridges writers reunion at ATX Festival one of them said

They were interesting in The Force Awakens and they were not interesting after The Last Jedi.  Finn bumbles his way through The Last Jedi, Poe is a guy who can't learn from his mistakes and double-downs on them and Rey just wasn't that interesting by the end of The Last Jedi.  That's where I blame JJ for "cheat coding" her powers.

I hope the Keri Russell rumors are true.  She'd be a great addition to the cast.

[Fool to cry]

5 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

It's funny because the film's central plot is, quite literally, the empowerment of the young angry toxic male, Kylo Ren, who it bends over backward to make look sympathetic and appealing.

And this stems from wanting clear cut good guys and bad guys with no ambiguity or shades of grey, which is fine. That was in the first Star Wars.

 

3 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Han is caught in a bad situation and tries to ward off the Imperials sending more troops by desperately answering the call and pretending to be an Imperial Officer himself. That Han's back is against the wall and his insistence that "everything is fine" after they've just had a fire fight with explosions and a roaring Wookie is so ridiculous (and obviously doomed to fail) that the hopelessness of the effort is played for comedy.

Poe, by comparison, flies out there in his X-Wing, puts the call in to Hux who is at the helm of a Star Destroyer pointed in his direction, and then smugly mocks Hux who is too comically stupid to realize that Poe is obviously trolling him. Poe's plan inexplicably works instead of Hux just blowing him out of the sky errr ... space.

Han was also introduced as this cold hard badass who "shot first" and in this scene he's bumbling around. Poe in the previous movie was brought before  a guy he just saw freeze a blaster bolt in mid air and mocks him to face with with "So who talks first?" We've also seen Hux be a pompous ass who loves to give OTT speeches about how he's going to destroy the Resistance, which were funny.

1 hour ago, benteen said:

They were interesting in The Force Awakens and they were not interesting after The Last Jedi.  Finn bumbles his way through The Last Jedi, Poe is a guy who can't learn from his mistakes and double-downs on them and Rey just wasn't that interesting by the end of The Last Jedi.  That's where I blame JJ for "cheat coding" her powers.

Finn bumbled his way through The Force Awakens. The difference he was on his own and trying to get away while in this one he's on an important mission which makes the bumbling less forgivable. Poe did a mistake the first time but he also succeeded in blowing up the Dreadnought so he wasn't going to learn from that.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Fool to cry

[Zuleikha]

. I'm not accusing her of being a "Mary Sue" but I do think there really wasn't anywhere for her to go.

I think there were  places she could have gone. She has a lifetime of trauma, a lot of naiveness, and few attachments. She could have believably gone to the Dark Side (starting as a shortcut due to Luke's refusal to teach her, fought the First Order people with increasing cruelty as she enjoyed the control/power too much). She could have had an arc about learning to rely on people instead of needing to be a loner. She could have struggled with fear/loss of faith in a version where Luke actually explained the many legitimate problems with the Jedi order. She could have had issues with the pressure of being looked at to lead in this grand conflict.

[Joe]

6 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I think there were  places she could have gone. She has a lifetime of trauma, a lot of naiveness, and few attachments. She could have believably gone to the Dark Side (starting as a shortcut due to Luke's refusal to teach her, fought the First Order people with increasing cruelty as she enjoyed the control/power too much). She could have had an arc about learning to rely on people instead of needing to be a loner. She could have struggled with fear/loss of faith in a version where Luke actually explained the many legitimate problems with the Jedi order. She could have had issues with the pressure of being looked at to lead in this grand conflict.

Rey is a mixed character. Twice she has Ren at her mercy. Despite her anger, twice she doesn't kill him. However, she fails to bring him back to the light. She doesn't resist the dark side cave, but doesn't slip over. She can fly a ship, but she's not great at it. Luke resisted doing bloody anything until after she left. She understands both Shyriiwook and Droid, but so do a lot of people. I'd say she's a good person, able to overcome her darker urges. But she isn't perfect. She's what makes a good lead character, IMO. Flawed but good.

[Fool to cry]

The Skywalker family drama and Kylo's issues and the mystery of Luke's disappearance were such a central part of The Force Awakens that to want The Last Jedi to focus just on Rey and keep her separate makes no sense to me. Her arc always going to get entangled in that. I think people wouldn't have minded if the way they did it was by making her a Skywalker, either by being Luke's daughter or Han and Leia's. Also Luke might have had the big hero moment at the end but so did Rey. She saves the remaining Resistance while Luke says she will be "The Las Jedi."

Edited July 7, 2018 by Fool to cry

[ChelseaNH]

Taking a deep dive into Rey's costume design:

https://tomandlorenzo.com/2018/07/star-wars-the-force-awakens-the-last-jedi-costume-analysis-movie-reviews/

[Joe]

That's a really interesting article. I hadn't considered that Little Rey had the same clothes and hairstyle, as a way of telling the audience who she was.

Also, that untreated wound on her right arm, down in the last set of pics, really annoys me. Sure, SW characters don't die from infections, but why take the risk?

[Cirien]

6 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

Taking a deep dive into Rey's costume design:

https://tomandlorenzo.com/2018/07/star-wars-the-force-awakens-the-last-jedi-costume-analysis-movie-reviews/

I generally like Tom and Lorenzo but I nearly stopped reading at "Whiny middle class angst of that character" wrt to Luke. 

Luke was a *moisture farmer* who's family it's implied were too poor to buy a couple a farm hands, so Luke is doing the work of two extra people. That's why he's so excited when the droids show I get that people like Rey but that's no reason to disrespect Luke. Come on now. 

[ChelseaNH]

Perhaps being too poor to buy farm hands is not all that poor.  It didn't look like they were wondering where their next meal was coming from.  (And Luke whined.  It's not about whether he had "real" problems, it's about how he dealt with them.)

[Fool to cry]

8 hours ago, Cirien said:

I generally like Tom and Lorenzo but I nearly stopped reading at "Whiny middle class angst of that character" wrt to Luke. 

Luke was a *moisture farmer* who's family it's implied were too poor to buy a couple a farm hands, so Luke is doing the work of two extra people. That's why he's so excited when the droids show I get that people like Rey but that's no reason to disrespect Luke. Come on now. 

 

5 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

Perhaps being too poor to buy farm hands is not all that poor.  It didn't look like they were wondering where their next meal was coming from.  (And Luke whined.  It's not about whether he had "real" problems, it's about how he dealt with them.)

I guess poor compared to Leia who grew up as royalty but  "Middle class" compared to Rey! I mean the Lars had a landspeeder AND a skyhopper Luke used to fly bulls-eyeing womprats.

[Joe]

So in less controversial news, my local orchestra is doing the music for a screening of ANH! Late September, but I'm excited now. And fellow Aussies, check out Ticketek for Star Wars. Looks like this will be done in a couple of other cities too. I booked Saturday lunchtime in Perth.

[VCRTracking]

"Hello...what have we here?"

[Spartan Girl]

YAYYYYYYYY!

??????????????????????????????

[Perfect Xero]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

"Hello...what have we here?"

I'm just thankful that he didn't make it into The Last Jedi so Rian could have him be the one who sells out Finn and Rose to the First Order.

[Luckylyn]

I’m excited about Lando’s return but I hope they don’t bring him in just to kill him off.  

[Joe]

Apparently he's been getting more cartoony over the years. Fair enough, he's been in cartoons. But I'd like him to dial it back, be like ESB/ROTJ Lando.

4 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

I'm just thankful that he didn't make it into The Last Jedi so Rian could have him be the one who sells out Finn and Rose to the First Order.

The point was, DJ was a total random person without a stake in the fight. That's not Lando. Lando only sold out the Rebels when his back was against the wall. And as soon as he could, he joined them.

[ursula]

10 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

I'm just thankful that he didn't make it into The Last Jedi so Rian could have him be the one who sells out Finn and Rose to the First

Yep, I heard that too. Apparently the fact that Lando was a leader and a warhero completely skipped Johnson's radar. The only thing his incredibly talented creative might could imagine for Lando was a sleazy traitor. 

Stay classy, RJ. Stay classy. 

[Perfect Xero]

Just now, Joe said:

Apparently he's been getting more cartoony over the years. Fair enough, he's been in cartoons. But I'd like him to dial it back, be like ESB/ROTJ Lando.

The point was, DJ was a total random person without a stake in the fight. That's not Lando. Lando only sold out the Rebels when his back was against the wall. And as soon as he could, he joined them.

No, I'm saying that it was originally supposed to be Lando who would help Finn and Rose escape and then betray them for money. Johnson explained this when he was asked about Lando's absence from the film in some interview a while back. Apparently he decided that people like Lando too much to buy it, so it became DJ instead.

[WritinMan]

15 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

No, I'm saying that it was originally supposed to be Lando who would help Finn and Rose escape and then betray them for money. Johnson explained this when he was asked about Lando's absence from the film in some interview a while back. Apparently he decided that people like Lando too much to buy it, so it became DJ instead.

I read that too. That would have been a terrible idea.

[DollEyes]

The return of Billy Dee Williams to the Star Wars franchise is awesome, to say the least.

  However, two scenes need to happen:

1. Lando's reaction to Han's death.

2. Lando's return to the Millennium Falcon. After all,  IIRC, it was his ship first.

[Joe]

52 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

No, I'm saying that it was originally supposed to be Lando who would help Finn and Rose escape and then betray them for money. Johnson explained this when he was asked about Lando's absence from the film in some interview a while back. Apparently he decided that people like Lando too much to buy it, so it became DJ instead.

Everyone is allowed to change their minds, aren't they? In the end, it wasn't Lando. For me, that's what counts.

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Yep, I heard that too. Apparently the fact that Lando was a leader and a warhero completely skipped Johnson's radar. The only thing his incredibly talented creative might could imagine for Lando was a sleazy traitor. 

Stay classy, RJ. Stay classy. 

Actually it didn't skip his radar which is why Lando wasn't in the movie. From The Playlist:
 

Quote

 

Where is the character in the galaxy far, far away? That’s unclear, but ‘Last Jedi’ writer/director Rian Johnson did consider using Lando briefly.

“Of course I’d love to see Lando,” Johnson said. “In terms of Lando, I briefly considered — would he work in the Benicio [del Toro] part, [DJ].” If you’ve seen the movie you know DJ is the morally ambiguous hacker/codebreaker who helps and betrays Finn and Rose within the span of a few hours, helping them escape prison on Canto Bight, but then selling them out to the Imperial First Order forces when the first opportunity presents itself.

“I don’t think you would ever buy that Lando would just completely betray the characters like that and have that level of moral ambiguity,” Johnson explained. “Cause we love Lando and you’d come into it with that [expectation]. And also, DJ, the character that they met, for the purposes of Finn’s character, had to be a morally ambiguous character that you’re not sure about, that you’re guessing about, and we already know that we love the character of Lando so it just wouldn’t have played in that part story wise.”

 

He probably considered for a moment if the charming rogue Finn and Rose met was Lando, because you could easily see him gambling in that fancy Canto Bight Casino and how fun his interacting with Finn and Rose would be but then he quickly realized it couldn't be him because he was going to have to betray them later.

30 minutes ago, Joe said:

Everyone is allowed to change their minds, aren't they? In the end, it wasn't Lando. For me, that's what counts.

Exactly. Being angry at Johnson for something that didn't happen in the movie is really taking it to a whole new level. "He thought about it but didn't do it! What a jerk!"

(¬_¬)

Edited July 10, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Fool to cry]

37 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Exactly. Being angry at Johnson for something that didn't happen in the movie is really taking it to a whole new level. "He thought about it but didn't do it! What a jerk!"

(¬_¬)

 

Didn't you know? Even considering something bad but changing your mind about it is just the same as actually doing it. At least to people who don't know what "passed like a fleeting shadow" means.

Some people thought Lando should've had Holdo's role and I can see the argument for that but then Rian would've had people mad that he killed off Lando AND Luke! I'm just glad the former Baron of Bespin will be in the Ep 9 and I don't think with Leia unable to be in it JJ Abrams is not going to kill him off. I hope I'm right.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Fool to cry

[ursula]

4 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

 

Exactly. Being angry at Johnson for something that didn't happen in the movie is really taking it to a whole new level. "He thought about it but didn't do it! What a jerk!"

(¬_¬)

Gee, isn't it great that Johnson didn't ruin a great character because the only possible way to imagine including Lando was as a criminal? We should totally give him props for not following through with his instincts to foully depict a hero played by a black character. 

 

4 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

because you could easily see him gambling in that fancy Canto Bight Casino

Speak for yourself? Because for me that would be a hard no.

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Fool to cry said:

Even considering something bad but changing your mind about it is just the same as actually doing it. At least to people who don't know what "passed like a fleeting shadow" means.

You're being disingenuous. I never implied that considering and going through with something are the same. But some considerations can be disturbing and thoughts betray a darker facet of someone's personality and biases.

 

And the most revealing fact is that Johnson didn't change his mind. He didn't go through with it because the audience won't accept Lando as a criminal not because he didn't think Lando couldn't be one - and that was the only way Rian Johnson could imagine Lando. Lando wasn't in the movie because Johnson couldn't think of him playing a heroic role. 

[Joe]

24 minutes ago, ursula said:

And the most revealing fact is that Johnson didn't change his mind. He didn't go through with it because the audience won't accept Lando as a criminal not because he didn't think Lando couldn't be one - and that was the only way Rian Johnson could imagine Lando. Lando wasn't in the movie because Johnson couldn't think of him playing a heroic role. 

So you blame him for making something for the public consumption? He was under a time contstraint, he didn't have that long to think about these things. "Shall I put Lando here? No, that won't work. DJ it is. So the next scene..."

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Joe said:

He was under a time contstraint, he didn't have that long to think about these things.

The shooting script for a movie is not a term paper, though. I've heard a lot of excuses for why Johnson turned out the product he did - being pressed for time has never been one of them.

Quote

"Shall I put Lando here? No, that won't work. DJ it is. So the next scene..."

Much like he went "Can I put Finn in a coma for the whole movie? No, that won't work. OK, let's find some other boring side plot to give him..."

[benteen]

9 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

I’m excited about Lando’s return but I hope they don’t bring him in just to kill him off.  

I suspect he'll live.  One of the human characters from the original trilogy should get to live.  I'd like to think Leia would have survived and helped Rey start a new Jedi Order.

I still can't believe that Johnson's only consideration for Lando was him betraying Finn and Rose and that he actually said that.

[Joe]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

Much like he went "Can I put Finn in a coma for the whole movie? No, that won't work. OK, let's find some other boring side plot to give him..."

I find it the weakest in the movie, but I don't see it as boring. It held my attention. I didn't feel like leaving. Which is more than I can say for half of Solo.

[ChelseaNH]

5 hours ago, ursula said:

and that was the only way Rian Johnson could imagine Lando

You got the receipts for that claim?

[VCRTracking]

7 hours ago, ursula said:

Gee, isn't it great that Johnson didn't ruin a great character because the only possible way to imagine including Lando was as a criminal? We should totally give him props for not following through with his instincts to foully depict a hero played by a black character. 

 

7 hours ago, ursula said:

And the most revealing fact is that Johnson didn't change his mind. He didn't go through with it because the audience won't accept Lando as a criminal not because he didn't think Lando couldn't be one - and that was the only way Rian Johnson could imagine Lando. Lando wasn't in the movie because Johnson couldn't think of him playing a heroic role.

Han at the end of Return of the Jedi was a respected Rebellion general but fans had no problem embracing the way he was depicted in The Force Awakens back to his old ways a rogue smuggler making deals with shady criminals. He had actually really fallen as far as Luke did, but hey he was being cool and charming again, so it was okay!

7 hours ago, ursula said:

Speak for yourself? Because for me that would be a hard no.

Well first of all Lando was first described by Han as a "gambler" and second:

3 hours ago, benteen said:

I still can't believe that Johnson's only consideration for Lando was him betraying Finn and Rose and that he actually said that.

Again, he didn't consider Lando betraying them, he considered having him in the movie and meeting them but then realized he couldn't because he would end up betraying them. Finn and Rose go to a fancy casino planet and who should they meet but the only character in Star Wars who was described as a "gambler"! It's not a hard leap to make.

Edited July 10, 2018 by VCRTracking

[VCRTracking]

5 hours ago, ursula said:

Much like he went "Can I put Finn in a coma for the whole movie? No, that won't work. OK, let's find some other boring side plot to give him..."

As I said earlier once that lightsaber flew into her hand at the end of The Force Awakens and it was clear she was the main hero and he did not have Force powers, Finn was relegated to being a secondary character for some people. Whatever plot they came up with in the sequel was never going to be as important as whatever Rey was doing, especially since they end with her meeting Luke. Finn could have been fighting genetically altered dinosaurs and the audience would have still been like "Yeah, that's great. What's Rey up to?" However whether you think his storyline was boring or not the movie doesn't relegate him to a secondary character. It spends as much time on his character arc and he gets his hero moment as the others.

Edited July 10, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Athena]

Please watch your tone when posting. You can disagree with your fellow posters without snide comments or demanding explanations. You can Ignore others in your CP or move the conversation to something else. The topic is starting to beat a dead horse. Thank you. 

[afterbite]

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Han at the end of Return of the Jedi was a respected Rebellion general but fans had no problem embracing the way he was depicted in The Force Awakens back to his old ways a rogue smuggler making deals with shady criminals.

I do wish they hadn't done this. I think I read Bloodlines (one of the new, accepted as canon Star Wars books) just before TFA*, and Han and Leia were happy together and he essentially sponsored something like Indy space racing. They weren't always in the same physical space but they clearly had a good and supportive relationship. I'd have preferred that to Han the crotchety old smuggler.

*May not have been before TFA when I read it. I'm horrible with time.

[Luckylyn]

The thing that really bothers me is how Leia and Han weren’t allowed any happiness before Han’s death.  They lost their son to the dark side, their romance was destroyed and they weren’t even working together to resist the new threat since Han went back to being a smuggler.  Why couldn’t at least Leia/Han’s relationship have withstood what happened? Han could have met Rey in TFA while on a mission for the Rebellion.   ROTJ ended on such a high note and all the victories personal and for the rebellion as a whole have been stripped away in the new trilogy.  On the one hand I get that the Empire wouldn’t just go away and that there would always be evil in the world to be resisted.   On the other, it sucks that our original heroes have lost so much and then get killed off.   I need a few wins for our characters that last.  

[Joe]

Okay, something else has been on my mind. I can't find it now, but there was a mention in some article or another, Disney execs want new Star Wars to have the look and feel of 1977. Does anyone have a link handy?

But sourceless or not, I want to discuss it. I think this is a mistake. If I want to watch something from 1977, I have the original Star Wars. I'd rather see SW grow and evolve. Bring in a few new tropes. My favourite SW comic series was John Ostrander and Jan Duursema's Legacy, for just that reason. Much of its imagery was familiar but different. Star Destroyers that were flattened and stretched, alien stormtroopers, a Duros rebel admiral, and so on. The characters were likewise familiar but different. The Skywalker with a lightsabre running away from his family legacy, the princess who suffered the consequences for jumping into action, the hotshot Imperial pilot, etc. The whole thing was great.

But my point is, it was similar enough for more casual fans, but just different enough to feel fresh again. That's the sort of thing I want from my Star Wars. Everyone's thoughts?

[VCRTracking]

52 minutes ago, Joe said:

Okay, something else has been on my mind. I can't find it now, but there was a mention in some article or another, Disney execs want new Star Wars to have the look and feel of 1977. Does anyone have a link handy?

But sourceless or not, I want to discuss it. I think this is a mistake. If I want to watch something from 1977, I have the original Star Wars. I'd rather see SW grow and evolve. Bring in a few new tropes. My favourite SW comic series was John Ostrander and Jan Duursema's Legacy, for just that reason. Much of its imagery was familiar but different. Star Destroyers that were flattened and stretched, alien stormtroopers, a Duros rebel admiral, and so on. The characters were likewise familiar but different. The Skywalker with a lightsabre running away from his family legacy, the princess who suffered the consequences for jumping into action, the hotshot Imperial pilot, etc. The whole thing was great.

But my point is, it was similar enough for more casual fans, but just different enough to feel fresh again. That's the sort of thing I want from my Star Wars. Everyone's thoughts?

That article by "Film Crit HULK" posted recently had this quote:

Quote

When the whole thing started brewing a few years ago, I had a creative friend tell me of a meeting where they were being pitched on the new Disney modus operandi. He reported the following: “if it doesn’t smell, look and feel like Star Wars ’77, they ain’t interested.”

Ironically I also remember an article from I think io9 that said when Lucas was planning his now aborted Star Wars Underworld his live action Star Wars TV series in the late 2000s his mandate to the art department was he didn't want anything that was like the old movies. He wanted everything to be new.

I agree that we need a balance between the familiar and new.

Edited July 10, 2018 by VCRTracking