S11.E18: Hell's Angel

[MysteryGuest]

Wynne88, you make a good point about the portrayals of heaven and hell.  For the most part, they've been underwhelming.  Hell doesn't seem all that bad, and heaven doesn't appear much better.  It probably would have been best had they left some of that to the viewers imaginations.  But the never ending line of Crowley's was actually pretty funny, and a "hell" we can all relate to!  And I have to say that I enjoyed the long corridor of Bobby Singers in heaven...surly or not.

[Aeryn13]

 

I've been waiting for Sam to be faced with his own words in 11.01 re "can't keep saving each other over humanity" and that he would have to make that choice regarding Dean, but I've changed my mind. IMO Cas being declared family unambiguously, means Dean will do anything to save Cas. IMO Sam will be faced with stopping Dean from saving Cas because the world will be at stake.  And that is going to be HORRIBLE :(.

 

I thought this whole thing made no sense. 

 

"His choice should be respected."   Are you kidding me? His "choice" is to be walking around like their enemy numero dos. Actually, Amara seems less of a risk right now so make that enemy numero uno. That`s like respecting someone`s choice to climb on a clock tower with an assault rifle and a bad depression. Here is a hint, Sam: you don`t let them do it if possible.   

 

And why anyone ever believed Lucifer could hack it against Amara, I`ll never understand. They don`t believe he is as powerful as God, ergo he wouldn`t be as powerful as someone who IS either. So the tactical argument was out as well.

 

Which they finally realized after - surprise, surprise - Lucifer couldn`t take out Amara. They are even lucky that enemy number 2 took enemy number 1 with them and saved their lives, otherwise they`d have a two-front war on their hands. Hence, Dean`s argument at the end was sound. Cas`s so-called choice puts everyone in danger and should be respected by noone. It was silly of the show to frame it as an act of going against reason and the greater good.   

[catrox14]

Wynne88, you make a good point about the portrayals of heaven and hell.  For the most part, they've been underwhelming.  Hell doesn't seem all that bad, and heaven doesn't appear much better.  It probably would have been best had they left some of that to the viewers imaginations.  But the never ending line of Crowley's was actually pretty funny, and a "hell" we can all relate to!  And I have to say that I enjoyed the long corridor of Bobby Singers in heaven...surly or not.

 

 

The Hell that we have seen with Crowley lately isn't actual!Hell. They confirmed it's in that old creepy house. So I think of it it like a branch office. Which makes me think that maybe the Heaven we see isn't the actual!Heaven. Maybe that's why they have the holding pods. Why would Heaven have to lock down souls into pods that get a guard check??

[catrox14]

Also interesting in this episode is that Amara doesn't seem to be able to just "find" Dean.  Now perhaps it was a test for Rowena's loyalties, but it seems like she asked Rowena to "find" the boys using her "wings of Titania" spell. OR did Rowena suggest she could find the Winchesters as a demonstration of  her powers?  And maybe Rowena picked the boys rather than Crowley because she didn't want to risk seeing Lucifer?  Regardless, if she's telling the truth, she followed Rowena to get to the boys versus just having some innate ability to find Dean (or Sam) on her own.

 

Yeah, just why did her DeanDar....go offline??

 

Was it because Dean tried to kill her?

Was it the attempted smiting?

Is it because she touched Cas' chest and then touched Dean's left shoulder and kissed him and the profound bond between Dean and Cas disrupted her DeanDar?

 

Hmmmm....

Edited April 9, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

Yeah, just why did her DeanDar....go offline??

 

I'm not sure about the her DeanDar powers in the first place. I think there is a proximity element.  Presuming she popped out where the cloud was, then in 11.1 she was in the area. She was in the area when she stalkered him as a teen.  He was just outside her door when she "felt his presence". He was at her crime scene when she whisked him away to the mountain plateau.  HOWEVER, she DID know where to send Cas - and that was post-smiting.

 

Which means either LOL!Canon or she set up Rowena to test her loyalties.  Maybe her betrayal radar has improved.

[MysteryGuest]

I agree, I don't think Amara has a tracking device for Dean unless he's near her.  I think they both sort of "sense" each other when they are in the vicinity of one another.  

 

I guess I can understand having a satellite hell, since even Crowley doesn't appear to like the real hell all that much.  As for heaven, maybe after Bobby's attempt to escape, heaven has gone maximum security!

[Wynne88]

Very true! (About the writing duos capabilities).

Edited April 9, 2016 by Wynne88

[Wynne88]

Remember the fancy mansion Crowley had eons ago, when he gave the boys the Colt?  If he was going to have a branch office, I would have sort of expected something like that.  He's always seemed kind of particular about appearances and to appreciate luxury.

[catrox14]

 

I agree, I don't think Amara has a tracking device for Dean unless he's near her.  I think they both sort of "sense" each other when they are in the vicinity of one another.

 

The more I watch this episode the more I dislike it. LOL

 

I think Amara's DeanDar is fueled by Plotonium.  Dean pinged it was Amara when they all went to the roof. But when they changed locations  Dean wasn't able to ping her before she blasted through the door? Is that because Cas was in the vicinity of Dean?

 

 

Rowena can just fix God's sister with spells? WTF?

Remember the fancy mansion Crowley had eons ago, when he gave the boys the Colt?  If he was going to have a branch office, I would have sort of expected something like that.  He's always seemed kind of particular about appearances and to appreciate luxury.

 

Eh Crowley had to settle for an abandoned mental institution. Probably got priced out of the fancy mansions in this economy

[MysteryGuest]

Rowena can just fix God's sister with spells? WTF?

 

It does seem rather convenient that Rowena just happened to have a cure for angel smiting...I"m sure she's used that dozens of times over her 300+ years...  The writers really have written themselves into a corner this season, and I'm afraid that anything they come up with from here on out is going to seem farfetched and ridiculous.  

[AwesomO4000]

... Which they finally realized after - surprise, surprise - Lucifer couldn`t take out Amara. They are even lucky that enemy number 2 took enemy number 1 with them and saved their lives, otherwise they`d have a two-front war on their hands. Hence, Dean`s argument at the end was sound. Cas`s so-called choice puts everyone in danger and should be respected by noone. It was silly of the show to frame it as an act of going against reason and the greater good.   

 

I don't think the show was framing it as an act of going against reason myself, because it is all going to depend on what happens. And I think saving Cas is going to turn out to be the right thing to do (even if it ends up being dangerous), so the only reason to have Sam take the opposite stance is so that the brothers appear to be on opposite sides. I'd discuss more why they would do this, but it's an opinion best reserved for another thread.

[NoWillToResist]

Dean and Cas sharing a vessel would certainly make the Destiel/Cockles fans happy.  I actually think it's a cool idea.  I'd like for Cas to be able to get a win out of this somehow, otherwise it's just one more really bad judgment call, in a long line of bad judgment calls for him.  It would be nice if he could play a part in getting rid of Lucifer.  He was such a fierce character when we first met him, but they have definitely changed him into something completely different in recent years.  

 

I thought it might give Jensen something interesting to play too. He mentioned that playing a character that someone else has played is a huge challenge (when talking about Misha playing Lucifer). I suspect he'd get a kick out of playing Dean as Misha's Cas... :)

 

 

Hand of God McGuffins are not the answer: from the litany in the previouslies leading up to 'Horn of Joshua' it's becoming evident that this is not the answer.  First one (from The Vessel) was cool.  Now... now it seems like they are almost deliberately inviting us to notice that there is no "special weapon" that is going to do the trick.  Ark of the Covenant, Rod of Aaron, and Horn of Joshua. All legit weapons. All one-hit wonders that even in the most powerful non-God-class entity (aka Casifer) hands, is inadequate to kill Amara.  I found it interesting that the combined smiting from the Angels really set her on her heels (even though they didn't know it) but the Hand of God weapon did not.  I think Dean was onto something with the 'not a Chosen One'.  And if Casifer + Hand of God raw power was less effective than combined Angel smiting.... there's a different solution IMO than "power".  When the Angels, who had been previously bickering, worked together, I don't know if they created more raw power or if just the fact that they were working together made it better.

 

I can't decide if I will be amused or appalled if what finally defeats the darkness is everyone (human, demon, angel) pitching in and working together as a united force against her. :)

Edited April 11, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

It does seem rather convenient that Rowena just happened to have a cure for angel smiting...I"m sure she's used that dozens of times over her 300+ years...  The writers really have written themselves into a corner this season, and I'm afraid that anything they come up with from here on out is going to seem farfetched and ridiculous.  

She has the Book of the Damned...I assumed that's where she got the spell from.

[MysteryGuest]

Does Rowena have the Book of the Damned?  Or does she have the Codex?  I can't remember at this point.  I thought the boys had one of them?  Oh well, it makes sense then if she does have it.

[SueB]

Book of the Damned. Boys have the codex. But she had the two long enough that she probably got a lot of translating done.

Plus Rowena, as a 'natural' probably has some innate sense that she can rely upon.

Edited April 11, 2016 by SueB

[DittyDotDot]

I thought Sam and Dean had both the codex and the book now. At one point Rowena had the book and the boys had the codex, but they needed both for Rowena to translate the spell to manifest Lucifer. Since Sam and Dean left before it was revealed Lucifer was in Cass and Crowley had Rowena at that point, I just assumed Sam and Dean took both the book and the codex with them. 

 

But, Rowena is resourceful, I wouldn't be surprised to learn she memorized a bunch of stuff while she had access to both pieces. I also wouldn't be surprised to learn Rowena wasn't in fact healing Amara at all, but just playing like she was. Perhaps Amara getting "better" was a natural course of events and Rowena knew that, but thought she'd see if she could use that to her advantage.

[catrox14]

 I thought Rowena used the same healing spell bomb or whatever she had on Amara that she used on herself, which was old magic that Rowena had before she ever had the BotD or the Codex. But I think she left both behind in Devil in the Details.

[NoWillToResist]

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the fact that a witch's spell can heal a primordial entity that predates...well..pretty much everything.

 

So I guess Rowena is the most powerful being in the universe then? If she can heal the Darkness, can she hurt her? Seems like she should be able to undo the healing to weaken Amara (at minimum).

[DittyDotDot]

::snort:: Maybe Rowena is God? ;)

 

You know, I was a bit annoyed by what they did to Rowena here, as well, and started wondering how this is even possible. But then I remembered: Horrible Duo. Decided, for my mental well-being, to just accept it. Seems like the more questions I ask myself on their episodes, it just leads to more questions. It's pretty much a never ending cycle of questions without answers, IMO.

[MysteryGuest]

So I guess Rowena is the most powerful being in the universe then? If she can heal the Darkness, can she hurt her? Seems like she should be able to undo the healing to weaken Amara (at minimum).

 

 

That's an excellent point, but I'm thinking we're just not supposed to examine any of the plot devices too closely.  They simply do not hold up.  I suppose over the course of the next 5 episodes it's possible they might ask Rowena what she was doing with Amara, and the fact that she healed her might come up, but I wouldn't count on it.

[catrox14]

 

So I guess Rowena is the most powerful being in the universe then? If she can heal the Darkness, can she hurt her? Seems like she should be able to undo the healing to weaken Amara (at minimum).

 

 

Rowena hitched her wagon to Lucifer who used her and killed her. Then she decided that she would help a Goddes who literally has no fucks to give about humanity. I think Rowena was shocked and disillusioned when Amara didn't care about bonding with her on a female to female level, female bonding and such. She really looked hurt by Amara's rejection and now she's fucked because Crowley knows she's alive, Sam, Dean and Lucifer want her dead after they get what they need from her.

 

I'm thinking she might restore Olivette to human status and get the Grand Coven to help her destroy Amara, kill Lucifer and Crowley, and then take over Hell.  

[rue721]

I thought that Rowena "healing" Amara looked pretty fake. It seemed like she was just trying to con her.

 

Rowena coming back to life didn't seem that implausible to me. She had to get to 300 y/o somehow; I would figure that she has plenty of life-saving or life-lengthening fail safes in place.

[NoWillToResist]

I thought that Rowena "healing" Amara looked pretty fake. It seemed like she was just trying to con her.

 

Rowena coming back to life didn't seem that implausible to me. She had to get to 300 y/o somehow; I would figure that she has plenty of life-saving or life-lengthening fail safes in place.

 

Yeah, I have no issue with Rowena being able to protect/heal herself; my issue is with her having a spell that works on someone/thing that defies definition and pre-dates everything, including witchcraft. Pretty sweet deal.

 

My fucking PS3 doesn't even play my PS2 games but Rowena's spells work on the Darkness? I'm jealous. ;)

 

Sam and Dean ought to get on her good side asap. Can she break Amara's (alleged) bond with Dean which supposedly prevents him from killing her?

Edited April 11, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[Binns]

I feel like maybe Rowena was pulling one over on Amara with the healing. Smoke and mirrors and Amara only got better because she would have anyway with time. Rowena is cunning (not dim like I said before) and always wants to be where the action is.

Or...is there any chance she was actually doing harm to Amara? She certainly turned on her quickly...maybe she was a double agent all along.

[MysteryGuest]

Anything is possible, I suppose.  For all of Amara's powers, she does seem to be fairly naive.  Sadly, since we know Chuck is coming back, I have to assume he provides the answer for getting rid of both Amara and Lucifer.

[Demented Daisy]

I figured Rowena was healing Amara's human form -- not Amara, herself.  Amara, having never been human, nor knowing/caring much about them, possibly has no clue how to heal herself.  Rowena, however, is an expert at "nature" magic, which includes healing.

 

But, hey, you know, whatever.  ;-)

Edited April 11, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[SueB]

I figured Rowena was healing Amara's human form -- not Amara, herself. Amara, having never been human, nor knowing/caring much about them, possibly has no clue how to heal herself. Rowena, however, is an expert at "nature" magic, which includes healing.

But, hey, you know, whatever. ;-)

This was my thinking as well. Plus B-L said they look at their old episodes to keep a level of continuity. Note: they look at THEIR episodes because apparently they don't think they have to watch anyone else's. Assholes.

Ahem.

Anyway, if you recall, in Dark Dynasty, Rowena talked about knowing the forces of nature and how they work. She also talked about duality and balance. All setups, IMO, for the Darkness plot and do support her innate understanding of how to heal Amara.

How I look at it:

-Amara has a human form but she's essentially the opposite of the natural universe her brother created. So Amara is in this world but her powers are sort of 'other'.

- She got whacked with a huge Angel smiling that knocked her out for at least many many hours. But it did take a few minutes before she got really sick.

- Immediately upon awakening, she ate Statistics Angel's grace and that felt 'good'. And she swatted Cas around. Then she used her powers to transport Cas to Dean.

-After the expenditure of her powers she starts to get sick. So it COULD be touching a Living Hand of God (I think that's one of catrox's specs), it could be that her Ambriel grace snack was used up when she expended her energy. It could be that she had a severe smiling sickness due to human-ish body and it took a few minutes to kick in. The point, IMO, is that she was sickened by something, not drained of power.

-So really, all Rowena had to do was banish the foreign 'virus/bacteria/radiation/energy) that was resident in her body. That's easier than powering Amara up by a long shot. Once Rowena removed the offending stuff, Amara was 'back'.

- So, if Rowena is innately tuned to nature, I could see her sensing the 'wrongness' and somehow siphoning it out of Amara. Like taking poison out of a body. and Amara healed herself once it was removed.

When out in this context, I'm not so sure it was a huge feat.

To me, the bigger question is how did she find Amara? I'll have to fill that plot hole in as follows: when Cas showed up, maybe he mentioned where he found Amara and how she beamed him direct to Billie. Then Rowena, looking for a bigger bad than Lucifer, started where Cas had indicated he last saw her. Perhaps Amaea didn't get too far and Rowena found her easily. How did Rowena get past smiling sickness? Meh, witch. She probably had a few protection enchantments she could use.

[catrox14]

How did Rowena get past smiling sickness?

 

 

I'm sorry SueB. I suspect you are posting mobile but I am never not going to find 'Smiling Sickness' hilarious...unless you did that on purpose and kudos if you did LOL

 

 

This was my thinking as well. Plus B-L said they look at their old episodes to keep a level of continuity. Note: they look at THEIR episodes because apparently they don't think they have to watch anyone else's. Assholes.

 

 

Here's what I don't get. Where are the continuity people here? The Script Supervisors?  Does B-L just not give a shit? WTF? How does Carver let that stand? Well I suspect right now he doesn't care...but JFC if they flatout don't look at any other scripts they ARE assholes. 

 

I wonder though if Carver doesn't care if they blow up continuity because they are willing to subvert canon and kill characters which might be what Carver wants.  I mean ultimately, he's still the showunner.

Edited April 12, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

I'm sorry SueB. I suspect you are posting mobile but I am never not going to find 'Smiling Sickness' hilarious...unless you did that on purpose and kudos if you did LOL

 

 

 

Here's what I don't get. Where are the continuity people here? The Script Supervisors?  Does B-L just not give a shit? WTF? How does Carver let that stand? Well I suspect right now he doesn't care...but JFC if they flatout don't look at any other scripts they ARE assholes. 

 

I wonder though if Carver doesn't care if they blow up continuity because they are willing to subvert canon and kill characters which might be what Carver wants.  I mean ultimately, he's still the showunner.

 

Ha!  Yes, that was a mobile post.  Just got on the computer tho.  I'm suddenly remembering the kids from the "Angel" episode "Smile Time".

 

So, I think Carver DIDN'T police shit. Glass did SOME but B-L had that Nepotism thing going for them.  Dabb, OTOH, IS policing shit.  Which is why the last two scripts sucked less.  I don't think he made them do their homework (or eat their vegetables), but I suspect he corrected anything that was really bad.  Which means, IMO, that he was fine with Rowena being able to take the "sickness" out of Amara.  Personally, I thought it fit.  I thought Rowena being alive fit.  What is BAD is that they over-packed the script (AGAIN) and either never wrote the connective tissue regarding Rowena finding Amara, Rowena making a promise to Amara, how Rowena could actually heal Amara, or how Rowena got from wherever-the-hell-she-was to wherever-the-hell-the-boys-were. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

 

.  I'm suddenly remembering the kids from the "Angel" episode "Smile Time".

 

Not a word of a lie.  I totally was picturing those in my mind when I saw  "smiling sickness" the first time LOL

Edited April 12, 2016 by catrox14

[KirkB]

Rowena finding Amara wouldn't be that hard necessarily. All she'd really have to do is cast some variation of a scrying spell for the strongest source of magic or power and it would probably take her right to the Darkness.

 

Healing her, well, that's a little more complicated unless it involved just the physical damage and/or manipulation of energy. For all we know she could have drawn the residual angel residue out of Amara and into herself.

 

I wonder what Amara's end game really is. She says she's doing all this, including now torturing Lucifer, to get a face to face with her brother. So assuming he shows up, what is she planning to do? Unless she is somehow way more powerful than him they are probably pretty evenly matched, which means the best possible outcome of attacking him would be they both get destroyed.

[SueB]

I think she wants to destroy his creations.

[catrox14]

I think she wants to destroy his creations.

 

It's not even destroy his creations, She wants to renovate. She said as much in this episode. IMO, she was to tear down and rebuild the universe. I think she wants to start with Dean since that is the first glimpse of Creation she saw...or so she says. 

 

I think she has some messed up plans for Dean and IMO she imparted a vision upon him when she kissed him that he may not remember. I'm still not ruling out that she might want Dean to be the Baby Daddy for her version of creation.

[AwesomO4000]

I think she has some messed up plans for Dean and IMO she imparted a vision upon him when she kissed him that he may not remember. I'm still not ruling out that she might want Dean to be the Baby Daddy for her version of creation.

 

To quote Dean: Yikes.

Edited April 13, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

To quote Dean: Yikes.

 

 

Right? I surely hope I'm wrong but man it just ....I wouldn't put it past this stupid show considering we had Sam on the verge of Sexy Times with Lilith....O_O and if we are redoing s4 and s5....well just sayin'

[SueB]

I used to think they were heading in that direction but IDK. They are running out of time.

[catrox14]

I used to think they were heading in that direction but IDK. They are running out of time.

 

Eh, this is the time of season where they start throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  Just thinking back

 

S4

 Monster at the End of this Book where we meet Chuck

 Jump the Shark where we learn about Adam

The Rapture - Cas' history

 When the Levee Breaks - Sam goes off the wagon and he and Dean fight

 Lucifer Rising - Sam kills a nurse, kills Lilith and release Lucifer

 

 

s

S5: 

       Point of No Return: Resurrect Adam and dump Dean as Michael condom

       Hammer of the Gods - Lucifer kills Gabriel

       The Devil You Know - The plan to ruing Sam's life is revealed

        Two Minutes To Midnight - Pestilence and Death

        Swan Song -  Sam says yes, beats the shit out of Dean and jumps in the pit with Adam

s6 I barely remember but it was like Eve and killing her, Cas' plan is revealed, Dean wipes Lisa and Ben's memories, Sam loses his mind and finds it again. and we get the Leviathan

 

s7 - Stuff with Leviathans,and Kevin and and Dean and Cas end up in Purgatory that is really all I remember..oh and Charlie

 

s8 - 8.18 - 8.23...The trials mostly. Cas being controlled by Naomi,  Crowley killing their friends, attempt to cure Crowley and finish the trials, Cas is grace is ripped out by Metatron, Sam nearly dies and the angels fall

 

s9 -

       9.18 - Metatron capture Cas, downloads ALL the things into his brain and Dean beats up Gadreel and exchanges him for Cas?

       9.19 -  Jody and the vampires with Dean getting more affected by the Mark I guess

       9.20 - NOTHING HAPPENED IT DOESN'T EXIST

       9.21 - Crowley has a son and Dean kills Abaddon

        9.22 - Tessa dies by impaling herself on Dean's First Blade...

                   I mean the First Blade... Cas is being told to kill Dean he refuses, Dean tries to kill Gadreel

        9.23 -  Metatron kills Dean and Crowley turns him into a demon

 

 

s10 

 

       10.18 - Book of the Damned : Charlie returns with the Book of the Damned and the Stynes in tow

       10.19 -  The Werther Project - Sam finds the Codex, Dean is being tempted to suicide,Sam allies with owena

        10.20 - Claire returns and finds her mom and her mom dies.

       10.21 - Dark Dynasty : Rowena Charlie Cas and Sam work for the Mark cure, 

       10.22 - Dean kills all the Stynes, tries to kill Cas, Crowley get his mojo back and Sam doesn't kill him

       10.23 - Dean is going down fast, summons Death, learns about the the Darkness, Death wants Dean to kill Sam, Dean kills Death  Rowena removes the Mark and the Darkness is released

 

 

So they have plenty of time to fuck up the rest of the season LOL (sorry I'm being negative)

[catrox14]

So, I guess we can say Cas is now an honorary Winchester.

 

Apparently the lapel of his trenchcoat has plaid on the underside.

 

[catrox14]

So upon rewatch I decided to really listen to the TV and this was pretty interesting

 

 I think it was all from Firesign Theatre after some quick google fuing. I thought maybe it was more of the speech from Night of the Hunter that was in Void and Form. It was all interspersed with the fight between Lucifer and Crowley. 

 

http://firesigntheatre.com/media/media.php?item=sfi-ln

 

 

Announcer: Is it going to be all right?
Crowd: It's going to be all right!
Announcer: [ Laughs ] Oh, you bet! Dear friends, it is going to be all right. It's going to be all right tonight.
Man: The world ended. Uh, say, who was born today?
Woman: Uh, nobody, Hugh. Sort of.
Man: This is UTV   Does Peggy know that?

. ...Trail of Tears golf...

Yes! Okay, Mother.
[ Laughs ] Ha, ha, ha! No, son!

Man: Shoes for industry. Shoes for the dead. Shoes industry.
Aah! Then take off your shoes.

Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=105&t=26447

Edited April 13, 2016 by catrox14

[NoWillToResist]

So, I guess we can say Cas is now an honorary Winchester.

 

Apparently the lapel of his trenchcoat has plaid on the underside.

 

Wardrobe aside, I'd argue that Cas has been "family" to the boys (or at least Dean) for quite some time... :)

[catrox14]

Wardrobe aside, I'd argue that Cas has been "family" to the boys (or at least Dean) for quite some time... :)

 

LOL oh I know, I just noted the plaid made it more 'formal'

[auntvi]

Announcer: Is it going to be all right?

Crowd: It's going to be all right!

Announcer: [ Laughs ] Oh, you bet! Dear friends, it is going to be all right. It's going to be all right tonight.

 

I thought what was on TV sounded familiar, but with my old lady hearing I couldn't pick it out. Firesign Theater! I would not have expected the nepotism duo to pull out Firesign Theater.  Who would have thought 1960s stoner humor would show up in the middle of what should be a horrific scene.

 

I'm amazed how much I can remember. "Rrrrocky Rrrrococo at your cervix!" (from Nick Danger, Private Eye) would have been funnier, since they seemed to be going for laughs. Mark Pellegrino and Mark Shepard could have done a nice back and forth quoting their favorite lines.

 

I don't know whether to laugh or be pissed! I think I'm pissed.

 

[catrox14]

I thought what was on TV sounded familiar, but with my old lady hearing I couldn't pick it out. Firesign Theater! I would not have expected the nepotism duo to pull out Firesign Theater.  Who would have thought 1960s stoner humor would show up in the middle of what should be a horrific scene.

 

I'm amazed how much I can remember. "Rrrrocky Rrrrococo at your cervix!" (from Nick Danger, Private Eye) would have been funnier, since they seemed to be going for laughs. Mark Pellegrino and Mark Shepard could have done a nice back and forth quoting their favorite lines.

 

I don't know whether to laugh or be pissed! I think I'm pissed.

 

I think it was supposed to be ironic maybe. Or trying to show that Cas is in a bad way just sitting there watching the some stoner show because he was so depressed? I dunno. I was surprised to see it was Firesign Theatre.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I watched (for some reason missed this episode last year) and rewatched - not because it was SO good (but I'm also not saying it was bad) - just because it seemed like there was a lot going on and I don't like to miss things.  So...randomly, sometimes odd, observations:

• I liked the opening.  I also liked when Crowley turned their weapons against each other.  Not that I liked that he killed them, but c'mon - Dude appeared out of nowhere, snapped the white guy's neck with a flick of his wrist, and they think aiming automatic weapons at him is going to stop him?  Besides, I liked seeing demons as powerful and able to make people do things against their will, because that's what I think demons should be able to do.  They're DEMONS after all.  They shouldn't be wusses - like the angels later in the ep.  (get to that in a bit.)
• So we go from that awesome display of power to Crowley arguing with Dean on the phone - and Dean doesn't believe him.  LOLOLOLOL.  That was funny.
• Someone really should find that factory that's selling contraband angel blades to the bad guys and put them out of business.  Be nice if the guys did that in S12.  :)
• Damn, anyone can get into Heaven if Lucifer can just walk in, huh?  Not much point to Guck even casting him out.  
• I reallyreallyreallyreallyreally dislike how the show portrayed most of the angels this ep.  There were a few with some backbone, but otherwise: worthless.  Geez, they all got together to try to smite The Darkness - it's a bit ridiculous, imo, that they couldn't all work together and deal with Lucifer.  I also have a hard time believing that they all didn't know the Story of How God Locked Away The Darkness (that it took God and all the Archangels, not just Lucifer), so they shouldn't have fallen for his claim that he could do it by himself.  If anything, that should have been one of those legends that grow bigger over time, so that really should have thrown some shade onto Lucifer's claim.
• Sam clearly called Cas' vessel an 'it', not Cas himself.  No different to me than referring to human bodies as a meatsuits, which they have both done - and Cas' 'vessel' is a 'meatsuit' also.  Although I do have to wonder into what other 'vessel' Dean thought they could send Lucifer.  Some poor innocent schmuck probably.  Or Sam.  Seriously - I don't think Dean thought that through very well.  

[bettername2come]

I like that Crowley ripped up the contract. I'm not even mad he killed the guys. That's just Crowley being Crowley, but ripping up the contract first was fair. I'm amused at Amara still referring to Crowley as "Uncle Crowley." Always nice to see Rowena back from the dead. I like that Rowena had a backup plan for when she died, although I suspect she was originally meant to stay dead. Do we have confirmation one way or the other? I like the way they've used the hands of God in the show. Lucifer has no respect for personal boundaries. I like Dean sticking up for Cas, although technically I agree with Sam and his logic that Lucifer is their best shot. "There's times I want to get slapped during sex by a girl wearing a Zorro mask. That don't make it a good idea." I like Dean saying "Castiel" for once when casting the spell. I'm sure it was just a requirement of the spell to say the angel's actual name, but still. I don't think he's called him Castiel since season 4. I love the way they use Crowley and Rowena in this episode. I like how nonchalant Cas is in his own brain while Lucifer and Crowley duke it out. I liked that Amara showed up and saved Sam and Dean. Cool scene of Amara getting hit with the beam of light. Like that Sam and Dean want to save Cas despite their previous rules. Where did Dean get a baseball to throw at those beer bottles? Amara's really out of the loop if she thinks Lucifer is still God's favorites. This one was really good. 

On 11/9/2016 at 9:07 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

• Sam clearly called Cas' vessel an 'it', not Cas himself.  No different to me than referring to human bodies as a meatsuits, which they have both done - and Cas' 'vessel' is a 'meatsuit' also.  Although I do have to wonder into what other 'vessel' Dean thought they could send Lucifer.  Some poor innocent schmuck probably.  Or Sam.  Seriously - I don't think Dean thought that through very well.  

Seriously. Lucifer-ready vessels have to be in short supply. 

[Hanahope]

Nice to get back to the story arc again.  Also liked seeing Rowena again, of course she’d have a fail safe for death.

Lucifer has all the demons looking for a hand of god, but Crowley knows one guy who comes through? And of course it doesn’t work, it’s only episode 18.

And why don’t the boys realize there is a ‘good’ archangel around, Michael.  Just gotta get him out of the cage too.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Hanahope

[The Companion]

On 4/6/2016 at 10:37 PM, ZennyKenny said:

The only thing that confused me was her appearance at the end. When Lucifer started killing the boys and she suddenly showed up, I said "Oh yeah! You can't mess with Dean or Amara will show up." But then she specified that she had tracked Rowena there. I would have thought that she could just sense when Dean was being harmed.

Haha, this was my reaction. Internal monologue: oh, wow! The show has actually explained why The Darkness has done almost nothing since we saw her last and why she didn't show to help Dean. Here she is now that he is in peril. That is actually really  . . .aaaaaaand she tracked Rowena. Nevermind. 

 

On 4/8/2016 at 10:38 PM, SueB said:

 

 

Of course Rowena isn't dead.  I'm really glad she's back but I think it makes sense.  She really flew "without a net" in so many situations.  I'm not all that surprised that she had an ace up her...um thigh...   It reminding me of Meryl Streep and Goldie Hawn in Death Becomes Her (with the neck twisting and all).  But I also liked how quickly Rowena realized how out of her league she was with both Amara and Lucifer.  Pre-death Rowena would have been in there smarming it up.  I think post-death Rowena either has no more lives left and knows it or her experience provided a modicum of caution to her.  In either case, I liked the way Ruth played "terrified".  We hadn't really seen that on Rowena before.  That doesn't mean I think she's going to turn into a good-guy.  But perhaps she'll stop trying to make deals with those who are more powerful.  I also liked how they remembered that Rowena's magic stems from the forces of Nature.  I wish we'd heard more about that.  I presume she was siphoning off the smiting sickness somehow but I really don't know.

 

I was so angry when she had 0 contingencies. It was so inconsistent with her character. So, i was pleasantly surprised when she had a backup (though I did also wonder when we never saw her body again).

On 4/9/2016 at 7:22 AM, DittyDotDot said:

 

I agree, I'm glad she's back and I too think it makes a certain amount of sense. Well as much sense as anything else makes in this universe. My only issue really is they made her so powerful here it makes it hard to believe she was ever on the run from the Grand Coven. But, then again, maybe she wasn't? I speculated back when she was introduced she came out and made her presence known for a reason. Perhaps she's like the angels in S4, just been waiting for a certain set of circumstances to set the stage? 

 

I can buy that she is one of the most powerful witches but that she can't fight outnumbered.

On 4/9/2016 at 12:41 PM, auntvi said:

It doesn't help that Amara herself is just :blah:. I don't know if the fault is with the writing or the actor or both, but there's nothing god-like about her. For example, her voice: the accent is flat American, her vocabulary is standard, modern American. I know it's a trope of US television that god-like and evil characters speak in a British accent, but it usually works because it sets the character apart, different. There's nothing special about Amara.

This is my biggest problem, I think. She is so flat and dull. And she spends so much time complaining. It doesn't make her particularly scary. I still think this is magnified further by showing her as a child. 

On 4/9/2016 at 1:49 PM, rue721 said:

 

I'll take the rest of my bitching to the Bitterness thread tonight. But just in direct response to your post:  it probably exacerbates my apathy toward Amara that Sam and Dean just don't seem that scared of her, either. Everyone keeps talking about how guilty the guys feel about letting her loose. Screw guilt, I want some terror! LOL.

Yes! I have to say the most interesting and terrifying she has been wasn't even her big show of force. It was Rowena shaking and being absolutely terrified of her. A bit of fear would go a long way here. 

On 4/9/2016 at 4:22 PM, Wynne88 said:

I hate that whole warehouse concept of Heaven, along with the middle-managers, the conference room, and the weird machine that lets them check on the inhabitants through the doors.  My heaven is not going to be like that.  *I hope*  I don't think they should ever have tried to actually portray heaven or hell (although Crowley endless lines were clever).

Yes. The heaven this show has created is pretty terrible. I suspect the problem it is meant to address is that interaction with actual people could create unhappiness. Hell is other people. There is no way to control how the other person would behave. How do you avoid fights and breakups and cheating? By never letting people interact with one another or even create new memories with a fake version of the other person. Pop people safely in happy memories. The problem with that, of course, is that it would get tedious to the point of torture over time and you never get to see your loved ones again. 

I think heaven is supposed to invoke that existential horror in this show. It is supposed to show how little the angels understand or care.

On 4/11/2016 at 8:45 AM, DittyDotDot said:

 

But, Rowena is resourceful, I wouldn't be surprised to learn she memorized a bunch of stuff while she had access to both pieces. I also wouldn't be surprised to learn Rowena wasn't in fact healing Amara at all, but just playing like she was. Perhaps Amara getting "better" was a natural course of events and Rowena knew that, but thought she'd see if she could use that to her advantage.

This is a solid point and would definitely be "on brand."

On 4/11/2016 at 5:11 PM, Demented Daisy said:

I figured Rowena was healing Amara's human form -- not Amara, herself.  Amara, having never been human, nor knowing/caring much about them, possibly has no clue how to heal herself.  Rowena, however, is an expert at "nature" magic, which includes healing.

 

But, hey, you know, whatever. 😉

This was actually what I thought in real time. Rowena said "The vessel is healing nicely." 

 

Dudes, Rowena is BACK. And not just back, but back in her full, manipulative glory seeking to back the right pony. She was pitch perfect in this episode and she finally added some legitimacy to The Boring and Unimpressive Shadow by showing real fear and terror. 

I still don't forgive them for the image of her getting her neck snapped, but upon reflection I did decide that her OOC truth telling was a side effect of the collar (makes sense, no?) and they had her tell that awful story because they wanted to establish that. I still don't buy it and hate the result, but at least it is a more valid reason.

Regardless, Rowena was fantastic tonight. Jumping between people and playing all sides. She is a terrible, self interested witch, so all is right in the world.

This was a bit of an "and then" episode, with a lot of talk talking and posturing. I found parts of it boring. I also found The Shade's show of force rather unintimidating. Lucifer had a higher body count trying to win over the angels. But they did start to make her a lot more intimidating and made her feel fairly indestructible, so it was better.

Lustiel (thanks, Tippi's recap) grates on my nerves, but so did Lucifer so that is probably consistent writing and a top notch job by Misha. 

I loved Cas in the kitchen and the great reactions from Dean. I love that Dean and Sam largely continue to be on the same page and talk it out when they aren't. 

Overall, the episode itself was too frenetic and contained too many ideas, but it had some quality portions. Plus Rowena is back to love/hate.

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, The Companion said:

This is my biggest problem, I think. She is so flat and dull. And she spends so much time complaining. It doesn't make her particularly scary. I still think this is magnified further by showing her as a child. 

And sometimes she still acts like a child.  I don't necessarily mean the brattiness, although that's there.  She just seems like she's so confused and doesn't know anything.  

[The Companion]

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And sometimes she still acts like a child.  I don't necessarily mean the brattiness, although that's there.  She just seems like she's so confused and doesn't know anything.  

Exactly. She feels childish (and I think they have even talked about her tantrums). Showing her as a child made it even more pronounced. 

[ahrtee]

40 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And sometimes she still acts like a child.  I don't necessarily mean the brattiness, although that's there.  She just seems like she's so confused and doesn't know anything.  

Without going into spoilers, I'd say having her grow from a baby to adult woman in just a few episodes (ok, maybe a few months in show time) should allow her to be confused and acting like a child/someone who doesn't understand anything,

Spoiler

since so many people have used that excuse to forgive Jack for his tantrums and/or not knowing how to deal with people.  They're both supposedly omnipotent/omniscient beings who were suddenly dumped into 21st century America. 

She did have a little time to absorb history, but it's still only been a few weeks/months, and history won't give her insight into people, emotions (and especially hormones).  

Edited February 12, 2020 by ahrtee
wrong word