S04.E04: Chloramphenicol

[sistermagpie]

All for a cause he doesn't even really feel is just?

 

 

But not thinking you yourself can give much more to a cause doesn't necessarily mean you think the cause is unjust. There must be so many soldiers who get burnt out this way. 

 

To me it actually seems like the thing that makes Elizabeth so attached to Philip is exactly that he'd stay in the game for her. Gregory, on paper, was her perfect man. They shared the exact same passion about the cause. They talked about how they'd sacrifice anything for it. Nothing was more important. Even each other. Philip puts her above everything and she loves it.

 

Now, I'm still not totally disagreeing with you. I am really frustrated about how Elizabeth as pretty much owned the entire Cause thing from the beginning. It's kind of a thing with her character--she tends to take over the narrative. This year it was such a shock to start with an actual flashback for Philip but then that less Elizabeth-centric ep turned out to be setting up Paige and Philip as the challenges Elizabeth would be dealing with when her evolution was spotlighted again. This ep we were back to Elizabeth flashbacks and following very clearly how she felt about things. 

 

It gets to where it almost feels like even Russia is Elizabeth's "thing" and Philip might as well have not existed until he got the US. I get that he's a repressed character who isn't as open as Elizabeth but it sort of crosses the line into suggesting that only Elizabeth's life is worth the backstory. As I said before I just can't buy Philip as somebody who fell into a life like this and succeeded so supernaturally well at it (although Irina herself hinted in her maybe-fake story about getting pregnant that everyone always saw family as a potential problem for Philip) but it's just unrealistic, as you say, for him to be doing this stuff because "it's a living." We have seen him react emotionally to things on the Russian side--the submarine plans killing people, the Afghan War--but those are also personal things. 

 

The showrunners have occasionally talked about this in passing in interviews, saying that Philip *does not* have a problem with his job in terms of the objectives, that the socialist cause is "bred into his bones" and that at heart he's a soldier whose country is at war and he will do what he has to do for that. So they seem to be saying yes, this is part of who he is, just like it's part of who Elizabeth is. But the few times he gets to express that are usually a ambiguous at best. Which is difficult when he's standing next to Elizabeth who's looking glassy-eyed at a flag and shouting slogans or whatever.

 

 

 

And for athleticism, well Henry's part of the first generation that began staying indoors playing video games rather than sports so I'm guessing the only physical talent he's developing is hand/eye coordination.

 

 

Henry has played a lot of sports in the past.

 

I'm trying to think of a time Philip went out to deliberately murder someone, act a "hit man" roll.  Has it ever happened?

 

 

He avoided the murder of the Pakistani guy and Elizabeth took it for this reason. Usually she does those--she shot the source who was getting antsy in S1, took out the guy under the car, was the one to intentionally kill the Contras in Martial Eagle. She was even the one to poison the kid in The Clock. I guess he was supposed to kill the Afghan guy in S2 (and there he seemed personally angry at him because the guy specifically bragged about killing Russian soldiers). Usually he doesn't act as a hit man. I wouldn't be surprised if the type of thing that happened in The Clock where he was so upset about threatening to kill someone's child was supposed to be fairly new back in 1981.

[Darren]

It gets to where it almost feels like even Russia is Elizabeth's "thing" and Philip might as well have not existed until he got the US.

 

Yes. Exactly this. This is what is missing for me. I've very familiar with Americanized Philip. I want to know more of who he was before, and thus understand more of the predicament he's in now.

 

Also, re: the showrunners saying he believes in the cause and is a faithful soldier at heart, that's all well and good, but if they have to explain themselves, rather than revealing the characters though the narrative, well then they're not doing their jobs entirely.  Kind of like having to explain a joke.

I'm trying to think of a time Philip went out to deliberately murder someone, act a "hit man" roll.  Has it ever happened? 

 

The murders I remember are all based on keeping their cover, getting home to the wife and kids.  For example, he had no option on that bus.  The pilot was ready to cave, the security guard could have not only got the vial, but also arrested the pilot, who would have crumbled and given away everything during even the mildest interrogation, and who knew what else this courier knew?  Other drops, other spies to give up?  Not to mention Philip would blow both his and Elizabeth sky high and his kids would end up in foster care at best.  He would lose everything.

 

So, not that it makes them OK (or that embedded spies would in reality ever do these kinds of routine things, Arkady's group would) but the murders that have happened all seem to be mostly because things go wrong in their plans.  Elizabeth had to murder that woman who "wasn't supposed to be there" during the mail robot bugging (another thing that Arkady's group would have handled.) but she regretted it, and it certainly wasn't planned.

 

A true to life show about embedded spies would be boring as hell, so I love that they have the Jennings do all this other stuff, for the show, for entertainment.  I'm not looking for reality here, but I do love the moments of completely read the writers give us.  Nina's execution was one of those.

But at what point does a sane human being question all the innocents falling by the wayside, with their loved ones paying the cost over and over again, just so your family gets to stay alive and in-tact? It doesn't matter to me so much that the killings were strategic - yes they were, minus in the pilot episode, which was personal. What matters to me is that eventually a compassionate human being would recognize that this is not justified. 

 

I do agree that you can't just have "normal" embedded spies and a compelling show. They have upped the drama, and they (the showrunners) admit that. But I think the killing takes away from the enjoyment and from the audience resonating with the characters. If nothing else, I'd like to see A LOT more turmoil in Phil and Liz. I mean, Philip had more angst about the bully he stoned in his youth than all the completely innocent bystanders he's killed since being in America. 

 

Elizabeth told the older lady in the mailbot repair shop that this was all done to ultimately make the world a better place. You sensed her anguish in that scene. And it made her feel real and compelling. I'm still waiting for that scene with Philip.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Darren

[Umbelina]

Yes. Exactly this. This is what is missing for me. I've very familiar with Americanized Philip. I want to know more of who he was before, and thus understand more of the predicament he's in now.

 

Also, re: the showrunners saying he believes in the cause and is a faithful soldier at heart, that's all well and good, but if they have to explain themselves, rather than revealing the characters though the narrative, well then they're not doing their jobs entirely.  Kind of like having to explain a joke.

But at what point does a sane human being question all the innocents falling by the wayside, with their loved ones paying the cost over and over again, just so your family gets to stay alive and in-tact? It doesn't matter to me so much that the killings were strategic - yes they were, minus in the pilot episode, which was personal. What matters to me is that eventually a compassionate human being would recognize that this is not justified. 

 

I do agree that you can't just have "normal" embedded spies and a compelling show. They have upped the drama, and they (the showrunners) admit that. But I think the killing takes away from the enjoyment and from the audience resonating with the characters. If nothing else, I'd like to see A LOT more turmoil in Phil and Liz. I mean, Philip had more angst about the bully he stoned in his youth than all the completely innocent bystanders he's killed since being in America. 

 

Elizabeth told the older lady in the mailbot repair shop that this was all done to ultimately make the world a better place. You sensed her anguish in that scene. And it made her feel real and compelling. I'm still waiting for that scene with Philip.

Ask that of people who napalm bombed entire villages, full of women and kids.  Ask it of our current drone strikes, taking out innocents as well as the guilty.  Ask it off the bombing of Dresden, London, and Berlin.  Ask it of the guards at Auschwitz.  Ask it of the Japanese soldiers who raped and murdered their way across China.  Ask it of any soldier, general, or head of country why innocents die.  Ask it of the US decision to drop nuclear bombs on Japan.  Ask it of the pogroms in Russia.  Ask it of the people who crash planes into sky scrapers, or shoot down airlines.

 

Human beings kill each other, constantly, and from practically the very beginning.  Usually in the name of country or cause.  It's who we are as a species.

 

Philip and Elizabeth are soldiers in their minds, they were indoctrinated into this, and feel they are fighting for a just cause.  Although we have seen signs that Philip is starting to look at the world view as more of an "they are all assholes, it's all lies, we are pawns" way.  Still, push comes to shove and many, many people do what their country and leaders tell them to do. 

[JennyMominFL]

Ask that of people who napalm bombed entire villages, full of women and kids.  Ask it of our current drone strikes, taking out innocents as well as the guilty.  Ask it off the bombing of Dresden, London, and Berlin.  Ask it of the guards at Auschwitz.  Ask it of the Japanese soldiers who raped and murdered their way across China.  Ask it of any soldier, general, or head of country why innocents die.  Ask it of the US decision to drop nuclear bombs on Japan.  Ask it of the pogroms in Russia.  Ask it of the people who crash planes into sky scrapers, or shoot down airlines.

 

Human beings kill each other, constantly, and from practically the very beginning.  Usually in the name of country or cause.  It's who we are as a species.

 

Philip and Elizabeth are soldiers in their minds, they were indoctrinated into this, and feel they are fighting for a just cause.  Although we have seen signs that Philip is starting to look at the world view as more of an "they are all assholes, it's all lies, we are pawns" way.  Still, push comes to shove and many, many people do what their country and leaders tell them to do. 

Agreed, We did a lot of underhanded nasty things in the cold war  too, and a lot of people died from them. Our hands are not clean. And like the USSR we were one of few westernized countries who executed criminals... Ours got more due process, but still

  Was that Elizabeth and her Mom in the flashback, because it sure looked like Mom was dying? Looked like TB or something. Then Elizabeth immediately wanted to call page.. Hmm

Edited April 7, 2016 by JennyMominFL

[Bannon]

Ask that of people who napalm bombed entire villages, full of women and kids.  Ask it of our current drone strikes, taking out innocents as well as the guilty.  Ask it off the bombing of Dresden, London, and Berlin.  Ask it of the guards at Auschwitz.  Ask it of the Japanese soldiers who raped and murdered their way across China.  Ask it of any soldier, general, or head of country why innocents die.  Ask it of the US decision to drop nuclear bombs on Japan.  Ask it of the pogroms in Russia.  Ask it of the people who crash planes into sky scrapers, or shoot down airlines.

 

Human beings kill each other, constantly, and from practically the very beginning.  Usually in the name of country or cause.  It's who we are as a species.

 

Philip and Elizabeth are soldiers in their minds, they were indoctrinated into this, and feel they are fighting for a just cause.  Although we have seen signs that Philip is starting to look at the world view as more of an "they are all assholes, it's all lies, we are pawns" way.  Still, push comes to shove and many, many people do what their country and leaders tell them to do. 

It is, however, far, far, easier to compartmentalize/dehumanize those you are killing, when they are thousands of feet below you, or you put them in a camp, or you simply sweep into their city or village, and butcher them, than it is to do when you live among them as normal people, living a normal life, for years on end. Elizabeth and Phillip are not sociopaths, incapable of empathy. 

 

I think the writers have done ok with portraying the psychological toll that Phillip and Elizabeth are paying; even Elizabeth is starting to show some cracks. I also think the show would be better if it moved more in that direction. LeCarre's novels are so frequently great at portraying the terrible psychic cost inflicted on spies.

[Bannon]

We did a lot of underhanded nasty things in the cold war  too, and a lot of people died from them. Ours hands are not clean. And like the USSR we were one of few westernized countries who executed criminals... Ours got more due process, but still

  Was that Elizabeth and her Mom in the flashback, because it sure looked like Mom was dying? Looked like TB or something. The nElizabeth immediately wanted to call page.. Hmm

For sake of perspective, it should be noted that the Soviet regime murdered, by many estimates on the conservative side, 15-20 million of it's own citizens between 1917 and 1991, with larger estimates running as high a 60 million victims. Yes, after Stalin died in 1953, the murder rate fell dramatically, but make no mistake, the regime that Elizabeth and Phillip were working for really doesn't have an American parallel.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Bannon

[JennyMominFL]

For sake of perspective, it should be noted that the Soviet regime murdered, by many estimates on the conservative side, 15-20 million of it's own citizens between 1917 and 1991, with larger estimates running as high a 60 million victims. Yes, after Stalin died in 1953, the murder rate fell dramatically, but make no mistake, the regime that Elizabeth and Phillip were working for really doesn't have an American parallel.

No It's definitely not. But the USSR of the 80's was very very different than the one prior to Stalin's death.  

I'm a history major focused on the Cold War, so believe me, I know what the USSR has done.

[Darren]

Ask that of people who napalm bombed entire villages, full of women and kids.  Ask it of our current drone strikes, taking out innocents as well as the guilty.  Ask it off the bombing of Dresden, London, and Berlin.  Ask it of the guards at Auschwitz.  Ask it of the Japanese soldiers who raped and murdered their way across China.  Ask it of any soldier, general, or head of country why innocents die.  Ask it of the US decision to drop nuclear bombs on Japan.  Ask it of the pogroms in Russia.  Ask it of the people who crash planes into sky scrapers, or shoot down airlines.

 

Human beings kill each other, constantly, and from practically the very beginning.  Usually in the name of country or cause.  It's who we are as a species.

 

Philip and Elizabeth are soldiers in their minds, they were indoctrinated into this, and feel they are fighting for a just cause.  Although we have seen signs that Philip is starting to look at the world view as more of an "they are all assholes, it's all lies, we are pawns" way.  Still, push comes to shove and many, many people do what their country and leaders tell them to do. 

I know someone who was in the Vietnam war. And I know he still has nightmares over things that happened there - things he was told to do by his government. My point is not to question that nasty things happen in wars (cold or not). Of course they do. But it destroys people. Even the people doing the killing. That's what I want to see more of with Philip.

[SunnyBeBe]

For a minute  last night, I wondered if Elizabeth might have been pregnant.  I mean, William did seem to think it was something other than what Gabriel had that was making her sick.    That would put a kink into the whole thing.  Nice distraction though.  

 

I like that actor who plays William, He's quite believable.  Of course, so is the actor who plays Gabriel.  So many talented actors on this show.  

 

The concern we see on Stan's face when he thinks that P & E are away from home a lot, could be concern, because he was the same way when his son was younger.  Maybe, he hopes they won't regret it the way he does. However, he has suspected them before.  Recall when he went and checked out their car trunk?  What was he hoping to find inside?

[JennyMominFL]

I know someone who was in the Vietnam war. And I know he still has nightmares over things that happened there - things he was told to do by his government. My point is not to question that nasty things happen in wars (cold or not). Of course they do. But it destroys people. Even the people doing the killing. That's what I want to see more of with Philip.

This is why I am anti-DP.  Not because I'm so sympathetic to the executed, but because I  worry about  what it does to the people involved and what it does to the psyche of Americans when people are executed in their name. The DP had been banned in the USSR at various and in the 80's it had been reduced to the punishment for, I think 5 crimes when it had at one point been used for 20. The plan was to phase out executions  completely as true communism was  achieved. They really did believe that the method used was humane.

The USSR in the 80's had 4 squads that did the executions. When it became known that one group was making the condemned kneel down, the whole group was fired as making the condemned kneel was considered dehumanizing.

  Russia has not executed anyone since 1996.

 I was in the military in the late 80's when the USSR was failing. I once attended a rodeo on Camp Pendleton with a group of Soviet Solders. Talk about weird when my whole life they had been the enemy.

  I do believe Elizabeth and Phillip believe that what they are doing is for the greater good. While I don't think we will see them experience the fall of the Warsaw Pact nations. I'm curious to know if we will see them react to Gorbachov, Perestroika, glasnost , etc.

Edited April 7, 2016 by JennyMominFL

[Umbelina]

It is, however, far, far, easier to compartmentalize/dehumanize those you are killing, when they are thousands of feet below you, or you put them in a camp, or you simply sweep into their city or village, and butcher them, than it is to do when you live among them as normal people, living a normal life, for years on end. Elizabeth and Phillip are not sociopaths, incapable of empathy. 

 

I think the writers have done ok with portraying the psychological toll that Phillip and Elizabeth are paying; even Elizabeth is starting to show some cracks. I also think the show would be better if it moved more in that direction. LeCarre's novels are so frequently great at portraying the terrible psychic cost inflicted on spies.

Well, my examples were certainly not all about air strikes.  However, you can go back to Charlemagne, or the Crusades, or clearing Ireland of the snake (witches) tortured and drowned, burned in the name of God.  God, country, whatever, people kill people, and always have, and to me, the excuses the leaders give for that, unless they admit to power and money, is all pretty much bullshit.  Soldiers are trained to do what they've been told to do.  And they do.

 

Yes, though, I do see Philip at least thinking about all of that now, and that's a good thing.

[Darren]

As a young adult I was visiting Berlin soon after the Wall fell, and was able to walk right into East Berlin. I still remember how stark the contrast was between east and west. I ended up coming home with a piece of the wall (yes, it was legit, not from someone's backyard :). I also ended up with a soldier's cap from one of the east German guards. That hat looked a lot like the hats the guards who executed Nina were wearing last night.

[AllyB]

I'm ok with Nina's story in the last 1.5 seasons. I think that it's portentous of what will happen to the rest of the characters. In the past seasons despite big things happening, everything always more or less reset back to the staus quo. Nina's appearances in season 3 subliminally gave the audience the impression that would keep happening. She provided a false sense of security. Like sure, Stan refused to turn for her and she was arrested and sent home, but look she's still on the show, she's going to end up back in America. If not because of Zenaida's arrest and trade, because of something else. So Martha realising Clark isn't FBI and even Paige being told the truth and telling Pastor Tim won't really change anything. The audience is left wondering how they will work out these big new problems, not if they will.

But now Nina's dead, the false sense of security her presence provided is gone. Now we know that the characters are never, ever going back to any sense of what they think of as normal. Martha's inevitable arrest or death is no longer something in her eventual future, it's closing in fast. Philip and Elizabeth think they can have Tim and Alice know their secret and keep living with their cover? Ha, that's a fantasy and we all know it. Dennis is the only one who stands a chance of coming out of all this unscathed and even that's going to take a lot of luck.

Reading that Q & A, led me to read about the book that reveal that method of execution, which led me to read about the guy the book was written about which took me to wikipedia.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Vetrov

 

I'm putting it here because the timeline jives with RIGHT now on the show, with this KGB guy giving away all of the technology information to the west, and makes me think about two things.  One, the guy the Russian's captured, and Nina dreamed of rescuing, and Two, spies were being really burned by this guy, but mostly in his own department.  Still, leaky leaky about exposing people.  I wonder if more than just the execution style will tie into the show?

I think that the show has already headed down this road. IRL Vetrov gave up information on Line X. In the show, Oleg is the head of Line X. IRL the Americans used Vetrov's information to plant false technological information where KGB spies would find it, ensuring the Russians wasted time and resources on fake technology, and is an alleged reason behind the trans-Siberian pipeline explosion in 1982. In the show, P&E found faulty plans for components of a submarine that were deliberately planted by the Americans for KGB spies to find, and it would have been 1982 in the show's timeline. So it seems like the show introduced Oleg in that particular job in order to link it to the Farewell Dossier and it's fallout.

Edited April 7, 2016 by AllyB

[beeble]

Oh Nina. I gasped. What a sad, lonely, and needlessly bureaucratic death. Oleg will disavow his father for this. 

 

Martha - good gravy, where did those acting chops come from? She must know he knows, but he doesn't know she knows he knows.  Anyway, I'd give Agent Aderholt a date anytime.

 

Stan was feeling the major ick as he looked at the Kama Sutra, then looked at her bed, then back at the book.

 

This was a good episode for the actors. Good stuff all around. (Although casting could've tried just a little bit harder to find an actress who looked more like a young Keri Russell. That girl looked nothing like Felicity.)

[Umbelina]

I'm ok with Nina's story in the last 1.5 seasons. I think that it's portentous of what will happen to the rest of the characters. In the past seasons despite big things happening, everything always more or less reset back to the staus quo. Nina's appearances in season 3 subliminally gave the audience the impression that would keep happening. She provided a false sense of security. Like sure, Stan refused to turn for her and she was arrested and sent home, but look she's still on the show, she's going to end up back in America. If not because of Zenaida's arrest and trade, because of something else. So Martha realising Clark isn't FBI and even Paige being told the truth and telling Pastor Tim won't really change anything. The audience is left wondering how they will work out these big new problems, not if they will.

 

But now Nina's dead, the false sense of security her presence provided is gone. Now we know that the characters are never, ever going back to any sense of what they think of as normal. Martha's inevitable arrest or death is no longer something in her eventual future, it's closing in fast. Philip and Elizabeth think they can have Tim and Alice know their secret and keep living with their cover? Ha, that's a fantasy and we all know it. Dennis is the only one who stands a chance of coming out of all this unscathed and even that's going to take a lot of luck.

 

So very true.  I hope they kill off the Pastor and wife soon, and the KGB comes down a bit harder on the Jennings for even thinking they can tel them what to do about such a huge security risk.  It should make some big problems for them both.

 

Part of me really hopes this show will continue until the fall of the Soviet Union, and show us what becomes of the Jennings family.  I doubt it will, but I'm hopeful.

 

 

 

I think that the show has already headed down this road. IRL Vetrov gave up information on Line X. In the show, Oleg is the head of Line X. IRL the Americans used Vetrov's information to plant false technological information where KGB spies would find it, ensuring the Russians wasted time and resources on fake technology, and is an alleged reason behind the trans-Siberian pipeline explosion in 1982. In the show, P&E found faulty plans for components of a submarine that were deliberately planted by the Americans for KGB spies to find, and it would have been 1982 in the show's timeline. So it seems like the show introduced Oleg in that particular job in order to link it to the Farewell Dossier and it's fallout.

 

THANKS AllyB, I missed all of that.  Wow, this should be good.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

Was that Elizabeth and her Mom in the flashback, because it sure looked like Mom was dying? Looked like TB or something. Then Elizabeth immediately wanted to call page.. Hmm

 

 

That was a flashback to what Elizabeth talked about in S2. When she was 14 her mom had diphtheria and she nursed her for 10 months. It was in response to this that Philip originally started telling the story about the milk. Funny how her story is about caring for her mom alone and Philip's is about killing people. But he related to her story because she had to take care of stuff on her own with no one to help her.

 

Btw, Elizabeth and her mom's apartment always looks really nice. She said it was communal--I assume that means it was the kitchen that was communal? It's flashbacks like that that make me think again how they all give us information about Elizabeth's previous life and we know zero about Philip's situation. We also learned here that she had cousins that we can add to the uncle her mother mentioned. She has family in Russia.

 

This was a good episode for the actors. Good stuff all around. (Although casting could've tried just a little bit harder to find an actress who looked more like a young Keri Russell. That girl looked nothing like Felicity.)

 

 

She may have looked more like her when first cast in S1. Her hair seemed to have darkened to me. But I cut them some slack since they can't really make looks the priority. She had to speak Russian too. (They lucked out with a Russian-speaking Philip who looks so much like Henry.)  But still, it would have been great if they went for a Felicity wig...

 

However, he has suspected them before.  Recall when he went and checked out their car trunk?  What was he hoping to find inside?

 

 

Timoshev!

 

Yes, though, I do see Philip at least thinking about all of that now, and that's a good thing.

 

 

It was interesting when in S2 after bugging the Arpanet Philip was frustrated about how he just couldn't even understand what he was doing--this was "a bunch of 1s and zeros. Later he was reading PC magazine, maybe trying to find out. He definitely gets more passionate when he can see a direct connection between what he's doing and some good.

[Alaskacie]

We saw Clark look at the wedding photo when he went to get Martha a glass of water the morning after she fell asleep on couch. Later, we can see it in the background on a piece of furniture in his apartment.

Agreed that the ring seems to be unaccounted for.

The other piece that makes me wonder is if they are tapping her phone, then they'd hear Clark's outgoing message and seems hat Stan would easily recognize Philip's voice.

I'm still confused by her telling the story of married lover. It makes her a liar -- she said there was nobody during the Taffet questioning.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Alaskacie

[JennyMominFL]

That was a flashback to what Elizabeth talked about in S2. When she was 14 her mom had diphtheria and she nursed her for 10 months. It was in response to this that Philip originally started telling the story about the milk. Funny how her story is about caring for her mom alone and Philip's is about killing people. But he related to her story because she had to take care of stuff on her own with no one to help her.

 

Btw, Elizabeth and her mom's apartment always looks really nice. She said it was communal--I assume that means it was the kitchen that was communal? It's flashbacks like that that make me think again how they all give us information about Elizabeth's previous life and we know zero about Philip's situation. We also learned here that she had cousins that we can add to the uncle her mother mentioned. She has family in Russia.

 

Thanks! Makes sense. Re "communal".  In the 50's and 60's, there were major housing shortages. Most people lived in Khrushchyovka, named after Kruschev. The were 3 to five-story apartment buildings with shared kitchens and bathrooms. The average apt was about 350 so feet for one room and about 650 SQ feet for two rooms. In the book, I am reading for class right now called " Soviet Baby Boomers, most people remember the communal living fondly. I guess Elizabeth grew up in one. Starting in the 70's people were often given much bigger apartments.

[stagmania]

Well, now I feel like a real dick for saying I wanted Nina's story to end. Like others here, I audibly gasped; it was just so sudden.

 

Really loved the conversations between Phillip and Elizabeth this episode. It seemed to me that she's developed some empathy for Phillip's desire to get out of this life and live as Americans, even if she could never do it herself. And it's clear that while Phillip does want that, he really only wants it with her. Just a really lovely, natural way to check in with them and deepen our understanding of what they want and how it's changing.

[Bannon]

We saw Clark look at the wedding photo when he went to get Martha a glass of water the morning after she fell asleep on couch. Later, we can see it in the background on a piece of furniture in his apartment.

Agreed that the ring seems to be unaccounted for.

The other piece that makes me wonder is if they are tapping her phone, then they'd hear Clark's outgoing message and seems hat Stan would easily recognize Philip's voice.

I'm still confused by her telling the story of married lover. It makes her a liar -- she said there was nobody during the Taffet questioning.

The way people get caught in their lies is quite often them not being, when presented with situations they didn't anticipate, consistent with their dishonesty. Martha hasn't spent a lifetime being a highly disciplined liar. It'll be good writing if this inconsistency is noted by the FBI agents.

[Alaskacie]

Yes I think so. The guy who questioned spent a lot of time on romantic involvement. An earlier poster suggested that maybe she could have met someone since, but I'm not sure how much time has passed -- seems as though was only a week or so.

Although maybe none of the other agents knew she denied romantic involvement.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Alaskacie

[Umbelina]

Well, maybe that's why she said he was married.  Most would deny that.

[sistermagpie]

Well, maybe that's why she said he was married.  Most would deny that.

 

 

Yeah, on one hand it fits because she would have lied. But otoh, there’s a reason Taffett asked about romantic relationships. If she’s got a married boyfriend that’s somebody to look into.

[lucindabelle]

So sad for Nina. But also. Given the west knows about her, isn't it premature to kill her instead of random ing or bargaining?

[scrb]

Wasn't it also kind of abrupt when she was shipped back to the USSR? FBI refused to do a deal and Arkady said fine, she's gone.

The Nina character wasn't suppose last beyond season 1 originally.

Guess they were straining to fit her into the main plot. If they kept her in the US, then Stan would be preoccupied with her, trying to rescue her, instead of directly pursuing the illegals.

Maybe Stan wasn't suppose to get separated either. You have to think it would affect his work in some way, after Sandra left her.

[babyPhat279]

Why does Phil and Liz always act like defecting is their fall back option? I see a lot of problems with this:

• Phillip would ostensibly have to give the US some valuable intel to still not be thrown in prison. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy to want to give up info on his handlers/assets.
• The US could try to turn him like they did Nina, he still wouldn't be "normal."
• Stan could just flip his shit again like he did with that other guy in season 1 and shoot you in the head.

 

Sorry to see ya go, Nina. I'll pour one (can of caviar) out in your honor. Your eyebrows were a masterpiece.

[Superpole2000]

I'm ok with Nina's story in the last 1.5 seasons. I think that it's portentous of what will happen to the rest of the characters. In the past seasons despite big things happening, everything always more or less reset back to the staus quo. Nina's appearances in season 3 subliminally gave the audience the impression that would keep happening. She provided a false sense of security.

...Or a true sense of boredom. It was bleak, dull, disconnected, and lingered too long. If you are going to branch off a storyline and character then you better make it good. As is, this was almost always a waste of time and dragged down the show. Rewatching those episodes will be much less fun now that I know the Nina scenes lead to an uninspiring dead end.

[sistermagpie]

So sad for Nina. But also. Given the west knows about her, isn't it premature to kill her instead of random ing or bargaining?

 

 

She's not important enough to either side to bargain for. Especially the west, since she was actually working against them.

 

Why does Phil and Liz always act like defecting is their fall back option? I see a lot of problems with this:

 

 

 

 

Totally agree. Sometimes you'd almost think the US is just like retirement village, the place where you go when you give in and admit you love the Milky Ways and then you're invited to take a seat by the fire. But I noted that whatever plan Elizabeth was imagining here, it wasn't a thought-through defection. She was telling Philip to blame her for Pastor Tim--iow, he'd be protecting his cover by killing him--and then raise the kids as Americans without Henry even ever knowing they weren't. Neither of those things go along with defection or witness protection. So it almost seemed like she was saying he'd be doing the same as always, but refusing to go along with the second generation Illegals plan. 

 

It makes sense more just as Elizabeth saying the things she'd like to say rather than offering any real concrete plan for him.

[Bannon]

She's not important enough to either side to bargain for. Especially the west, since she was actually working against them.

Totally agree. Sometimes you'd almost think the US is just like retirement village, the place where you go when you give in and admit you love the Milky Ways and then you're invited to take a seat by the fire. But I noted that whatever plan Elizabeth was imagining here, it wasn't a thought-through defection. She was telling Philip to blame her for Pastor Tim--iow, he'd be protecting his cover by killing him--and then raise the kids as Americans without Henry even ever knowing they weren't. Neither of those things go along with defection or witness protection. So it almost seemed like she was saying he'd be doing the same as always, but refusing to go along with the second generation Illegals plan. 

 

It makes sense more just as Elizabeth saying the things she'd like to say rather than offering any real concrete plan for him.

It is kind of interesting to think of Phillip and Elizabeth defecting from the Soviets, but not to the U.S., but simply to themselves and their kids. They would need to do so before the FBI discovering their identities, and the fact that a FBI counterintelligence agent knows them as a neighbor makes disappearing much, much, harder, but I actually think it would be an interesting direction for the show to go in, even if it seems we're just about at the point where that choice gets closed off. Whitey Bulger was the FBI's most wanted man for 20 years, before being discovered in plain sight in Santa Monica. If Elizabeth and Phillip and kids were to disappear before the FBI knew who they were, it could be pulled off, it seems to me. Enough so that it makes the attempt plausible, perhaps with their identities being discovered not too long after, leading to the FBI, CIA, and KGB in a desperate race to find them.

 

The more I think of it, I think the show's creators/writers made an error in having Stan be a neighbor to our favorite communist spies. I understand the temptation, with so many scenes thus so easily written, but I think it meant that Stan had to be written as kind of a dope, otherwise the show ends. Dopes shouldn't be given as much screen time as Stan has received, because dopes aren't interesting (they are trying to fix that this season, it seems to me). This show would have been improved if Stan had been a hyper-competent counterintelligence agent, with a hideous family life, who was convinced he had a mole in his office feeding information to illegals, but couldn't get the bureucracy to cooperate in turning the office upside down to discover who it was.  

Edited April 8, 2016 by Bannon

[sistermagpie]

The more I think of it, I think the show's creators/writers made an error in having Stan be a neighbor to our favorite communist spies. I understand the temptation, with so many scenes thus so easily written, but I think it meant that Stan had to be written as kind of a dope, otherwise the show ends.

 

 

Has he been a big dope in this area, though? It seems to me Stan actually has been written somewhat as you said, as the guy who knows more than anyone else but can't prove it. He's the one who sniffed out the Connors as Illegals. He's never been convinced the Illegals he shot at were killed. He's the one who thinks Martha's up to something. And he's got no more reason to think this than anyone else in his office. 

 

When it comes to the Jennings it's not like he's been looking at suspicious behavior and ignoring it. He really does only see them when they're in their regular family mode. When he told Sandra Philip was "a good guy" I think he was supposed to be speaking accurately, seeing the good part of Philip. 

[Bannon]

Stan's been written much better this year, but  think about some elements from previous years. I almost quit the show at the end of season one, when the writers had Stan and the rest of the FBI crew execute a simple stake-out about as well as a dozen drunks looking for dropped car keys in a dark parking lot. Sheesh, it still irritates me. The idea of a guy who successfully operated undercover with the Aryan Brotherhood, for years, getting played for an utter sap by an asset, because the asset is gorgeous, and the handler is lonely with a crappy home life, seems utterly ridiculous to me. I could go on. In any case, they've drawn back from some of that nonsense this year, to the show's benefit.   

[RedHawk]

I don't see Stan as a dope. In the early episodes the Jennings family was hiding in plain sight, which made them easier to miss. Why would Stan have suspicions that they were Russian illegals? But then he did have suspicions, and thus checked out their garage and car trunk. He found nothing so let it go.

 

The way I see it is that Stan simply has a huge blind spot when it comes to his good friends across the street. He likes them; Philip seems to be his best friend; they invite him into their home all the time. And still, there are little things that niggle at his brain. The conversation with Henry about their parents suddenly leaving them on their own and going out of town when a family vacation had been scheduled -- it played both ways. Stan appeared suspicious but also just concerned, because he really likes Henry and does see him as a younger version of Matthew, the Matthew that Stan missed out on while he was undercover. Stan then went to chat with Paige, who seemed uneasy and evasive. So Stan has to ask himself, is she just being a private and independent teenage girl or is there something more? He knows that there were problems in the marriage, and Philip has told him that he and Elizabeth still have disagreements over the kids. So while Stan sees things are "off" in that household, it's easy for him to believe (convince himself?) that it's just typical work and family stuff that he happens to have an inside view of. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by RedHawk

[bad things are bad]

Well, kids, THAT is how you kill off a major character. Looking at you, Walking Dead

 

Poor Nina, poor Martha, poor Paige. And even poor P&E. Other than Henry, everyone on this show is justifiably miserable. 

[Chaos Theory]

I am actually worried about Martha for the first time. I still don't think the show will kill her off. There was a justifiable reason to kill off Nina. Her story like the scientists work had hit a brick wall that was beyond the writers skill to get around. Martha on the other hand can go either way and when a character can go either way it is usually preferable to keep them alive.

The Pastor Tim story also has plenty of juice in it so he and his wife will probably be a thorn in P&E's side at least through the season. Keeping them alive is far better storyline at least for now then killing them off.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[Loandbehold]

Killing Nina? Damn you, showrunners! Damn you to hell! Actually, I agree with those who said that her story went on too long once she returned to the USSR. All that they discussed in the linked interviews upthread could have been handled during season 3. I understand the cliche of having a big death at the end of the season not being quite as shocking, so they could have killed her in episode 9 or 10. It was just too much of having her separated from every other main character. I'm going to miss the actress, but her character had out-lived (sorry) her story.

 

As for Oleg, I also believe that dear ol' dad withdrew his support of keeping Nina alive. Once Oleg agreed to stay in Moscow, Nina was no longer needed. Actually, she was now a serious problem. As dad told Oleg, he doesn't want to associate with a traitor, but, after Oleg said he wanted to see Nina, he knew that Oleg wouldn't let that go. This would reflect poorly on Oleg, and probably on dad as well. Since he did have a very important job, I can see that he was able to keep Nina alive, and, now, with Oleg back, he could have her sentence carried out. Of course, Oleg will find out that, not only has Nina been executed, but dad had a role in the sentence being carried out, which will lead to some fireworks between the two. I wonder if Oleg, without his dad's support, would have enough power or authority to get himself sent back to D.C. Arkady wasn't his biggest fan, so I can't see him bucking dad's wishes.

[Bannon]

I am actually worried about Martha for the first time. I still don't think the show will kill her off. There was a justifiable reason to kill off Nina. Her story like the scientists work had hit a brick wall that was beyond the writers skill to get around. Martha on the other hand can go either way and when a character can go either way it is usually preferable to keep them alive.

The Pastor Tim story also has plenty of juice in it so he and his wife will probably be a thorn in P&E's side at least through the season. Keeping them alive is far better storyline at least for now then killing them off.

It really isn't credible that Martha would be left alive. The show has already stretched suspended disbelief to the limit, with how understated the FBI response to the discovered bug/"suicide"  development has been, and now we have Martha admitting to a covert sexual relatioship, that she previously denied having in the polygraph sessions. If they leave her alive, or aren't writing the finale to this show, as Martha tells all to the FBI, then she has to be killed off, unless the writers are going to ask the viewer to believe that the FBI's central counterintelligence office is run incredibly incompetently. No, they weren't always good at their job, but somebody like Martha would have her security clearance pulled, and would be forced to identify who she was having an affair with.

[sistermagpie]

As for Oleg, I also believe that dear ol' dad withdrew his support of keeping Nina alive. Once Oleg agreed to stay in Moscow, Nina was no longer needed.

 

 

Oleg agreed to stay in Moscow on the condition his father saved Nina in some way. So I'd think she would totally be needed to keep him in Moscow. If she's dead that deal's over, much like the "Go to EPCOT and we'll kill the pastor" plan. I'd be surprised if Oleg is gone from the US story now because of that promise when his father didn't help Nina.

 

Also I know many people have made this connection, but it seems odd to me to have Nina dying because of something that we saw her do, something the last few eps have been leading up to, and then have it really down to the Minister of Railways stepping in as the bad guy. It'd be suspicious if she was just plodding along as a model prisoner and then suddenly after Oleg talked to his dad they decided to execute her, but it seems like this was already happening because of Nina's actions and adding an evil Minister of Railways for Burov family drama is a little off. 

 

I mean, it would be a flipside of the Jennings, of course. They let Pastor Tim live for Paige and Oleg's dad kills Nina for Oleg. But it could also be just more futility.

 

I wonder if Oleg, without his dad's support, would have enough power or authority to get himself sent back to D.C. Arkady wasn't his biggest fan, so I can't see him bucking dad's wishes.

 

 

Arkady did exactly that to keep Oleg in D.C. I think he's come to respect Oleg a lot and realizes he's not just somebody trying to trade on his father's power. As of now Oleg has a job in DC so doesn't need to be sent back.

[shopper73]

I don't know. I think he did want to his son to come back and that Nina had already pissed off the higher ups into fast tracking her execution.

‘The Americans’ Star Annet Mahendru on Nina’s Last Stand

[RedHawk]

The hope and excitement in Philip's voice when he said to Elizabeth, "So you want to run?" and then his falling shoulders when she said, "No, we'll just have to work Tim and Alice" -- wow, I felt that weight hitting him. For one moment, Philip saw a day when he might stop feeling like shit "all the time". I don't know what Philip imagines when he says "run" -- where to, how, etc. It seems he has a false hope, extremely unrealistic, and yet maybe it keeps him going in his darkest moments. One day he and his family will be "normal" Americans, free and safe and happy. He talked about retiring to Odessa, but whether he admits it to himself or not, I don't believe he has any desire to return to the USSR.

[shopper73]

I think that is an interesting theory, but my take is that if the KGB executed their own operative that was supplying them with good information and still helping them move forward with Anton, then why would they hesitate to take care of/kill Paige, another traitor? I think it is a story line that adds to the sense of pending doom for our other characters who are in prison, after all.

I think that is an interesting theory, but my take is that if the KGB executed their own operative that was supplying them with good information and still helping them move forward with Anton, then why would they hesitate to take care of/kill Paige, another traitor? I think it is a story line that adds to the sense of pending doom for our other characters who are in prison, after all.

[scrb]

Yeah one of the S1 episodes he talked about how everything worked in the US, in contrast to the USSR.

 

Elizabeth dismissed that saying something like there are more important things than conveniences and luxuries.

 

They've lived most of their adult life in the US, with access to all manner of nice consumer goods which aren't available in the USSR.  In fact someone once deadpanned that the Soviet Union fell because they couldn't make a good VCR (or insert some other modern good).

 

How would they not be at least enticed by the lifestyle?  Philip rewarded himself with a sporty car and Elizabeth has access to all kinds of fashion.  Of course they left the USSR as young adults so they may think things are much better than they used to be, if they bought into the Soviet propaganda.

 

But supposedly there was a huge black market for Western goods like Levis jeans and Beatles records.

 

Slate did a podcast in which they interviewed the show runners as well as a real illegal, from East Germany.  He said at the end of his service, there was about $50k available to him in an account back home.  But he told them he had AIDS and just left.  This was after the Berlin Wall had fallen so maybe they didn't care as much about defectors.  The guy still lives in the US.

 

It might be more dramatic to show Philip and Elizabeth as true believers, loyal to the end but it may not be realistic.  Also, probably not the huge dilemma it's being portrayed, the way Elizabeth is struggling with the decision.

 

Working in Washington is a very coveted post for the Russians so they know the lifestyle is a lot better here.  I can understand Philip and Elizabeth has all these memories of deprivation as kids and the war stories their parents told them.  But does that mean they wouldn't pursue a better life for themselves and their children?

 

Did Holocaust survivors or their children not seek better lives because to do so would be to ignore or deny the tragic family history?

[sistermagpie]

I don't know what Philip imagines when he says "run" -- where to, how, etc. It seems he has a false hope, extremely unrealistic, and yet maybe it keeps him going in his darkest moments. One day he and his family will be "normal" Americans, free and safe and happy. He talked about retiring to Odessa, but whether he admits it to himself or not, I don't believe he has any desire to return to the USSR.

 

 

The Odessa plan is what he meant by running. Not necessarily Odessa, but wherever the Centre settled them, presumably back in the USSR. He doesn't particularly want to return there--Elizabeth pointed out the obvious huge difficulty this would be for the kids--but when he says "do you want to run" he means run back to being Mischa and Nadia, no longer Illegals in the US. There's just nothing else it can mean. He's not talking about defection to her, obviously, and running on their own away from the Centre is tantamount to being short-term fugitives followed by capture and jail, maybe execution.

 

I think that is an interesting theory, but my take is that if the KGB executed their own operative that was supplying them with good information and still helping them move forward with Anton, then why would they hesitate to take care of/kill Paige, another traitor?

 

 

 

But Nina was no longer helping them move forward with Anton and Paige isn't a traitor. She's the daughter of two of their highly valuable and loyal Illegals who they hope to one day have as an asset. The Centre is often totally off in how they do things, but they understand that Paige matters.

 

 

I can understand Philip and Elizabeth has all these memories of deprivation as kids and the war stories their parents told them.  But does that mean they wouldn't pursue a better life for themselves and their children?

 

 

I think both the Jennings are trying to do this with their kids. I don't think either of them thinks they need to be patriotic Americans to do that. Philip is the kind of parent who wants to give his kid everything he didn't have but Elizabeth thinks it would be irresponsible of her as a parent to teach her kids that "better life" means a more comfortable one with more material goods. 

[Umbelina]

Why does Phil and Liz always act like defecting is their fall back option? I see a lot of problems with this:

• Phillip would ostensibly have to give the US some valuable intel to still not be thrown in prison. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy to want to give up info on his handlers/assets.
• The US could try to turn him like they did Nina, he still wouldn't be "normal."
• Stan could just flip his shit again like he did with that other guy in season 1 and shoot you in the head.

 

Sorry to see ya go, Nina. I'll pour one (can of caviar) out in your honor. Your eyebrows were a masterpiece.

 

I could have missed it, so sorry if I did.  Have either of them EVER talked about defecting?  As in giving information about the KGB to the FBI/CIA?  I can't really even imagine them doing any such thing.  I could see them running though, and especially Philip staying in the west.  The problem is that they would then be hunted by the KGB, it would mean new identities, which they would no longer have access to obtaining, all kinds of issues.  Without backing, how would they do it? 

 

They've been gone a long time from the USSR, but they have access to information about how things are for people there now.  It's possible they think it's all propaganda I suppose, but seriously?  Maybe they feel they would be treated better than average citizens there?  Dragging their kids into that closed world though, I have to admit I was shocked when Philip said Odessa.  It never occurred to me that he would consider taking Paige and Henry to a place with little food, less medicine, and deprivation they had never known.

It really isn't credible that Martha would be left alive. The show has already stretched suspended disbelief to the limit, with how understated the FBI response to the discovered bug/"suicide"  development has been, and now we have Martha admitting to a covert sexual relatioship, that she previously denied having in the polygraph sessions. If they leave her alive, or aren't writing the finale to this show, as Martha tells all to the FBI, then she has to be killed off, unless the writers are going to ask the viewer to believe that the FBI's central counterintelligence office is run incredibly incompetently. No, they weren't always good at their job, but somebody like Martha would have her security clearance pulled, and would be forced to identify who she was having an affair with.

I think Martha is fated to be arrested by the FBI.  I think that could be a really good counterpoint to Nina being arrested by the KGB. 

 

--

I don't really think Stan has been portrayed as a dolt.  I don't think agents routinely look at their neighbors and start investigating them all as possible spies from other countries either.  He came back, pretty shell shocked, and was absorbed at home with marriage and family issues.  At work, he still seemed pretty sharp to me.

[Tetraneutron]

I think that is an interesting theory, but my take is that if the KGB executed their own operative that was supplying them with good information and still helping them move forward with Anton, then why would they hesitate to take care of/kill Paige, another traitor? I think it is a story line that adds to the sense of pending doom for our other characters who are in prison, after all.

I think that is an interesting theory, but my take is that if the KGB executed their own operative that was supplying them with good information and still helping them move forward with Anton, then why would they hesitate to take care of/kill Paige, another traitor? I think it is a story line that adds to the sense of pending doom for our other characters who are in prison, after all.

Nina wasn't really providing them with much information. Her whole plotline this season was that she was no longer doing what people told her to do. She wasn't working Anton like she was Evi. We saw, in fact, that she was hiding that Anton had hit a wall in his research. Add to that that she was defying them, and she was expendable.

 

Paige isn't a traitor. Paige is the most important thing to two spies who are providing them with insanely valuable intel. Plus, if they want the second-generation illegals program, she's basically perfect. She's smart, left-leaning, passionate, takes risks and can lie well enough to fool and FBI agent. Plus she has impeccable credentials that would stand up to any background check. It's worth it for them to keep her alive and P and E happy. Honestly, if they do kill Paige, Philip almost certainly defects and Elizabeth might too.

 

To me, the interesting part of all this is for the first time Elizabeth is putting something above the cause. For most of the show, she tried to have it both ways, assumed she could raise her kids to be loyal to the USSR. Now she's seeing that probably won't happen and this season is about her having to choose one or the other. Look at what she said to Philip - if she dies he has permission to defect. Right now she still thinks it will all work out (she can turn Pastor Tim and the spying is something she can joke with Paige about), but she's going to find out it's not.

 

Philip is in a way more settled. He knows he wants Elizabeth and his family above his job or his ideology. Elizabeth's struggling with that and it's really her story now.

 

I'm confused about where they're going with Oleg. I don't think he had this mad, passionate love for Nina that would cause him to be a double agent in her honor. So how will his death affect her?

 

ETA Umbelina Philip talked about defecting in the early episodes. Elizabeth accused him of getting soft and falling in love with American luxuries. Now I think his goals are more whatever keeps the family together, whether in the US or Russia (his discussion about retiring to Odessa). It would actually be quite doable to defect. Zinadia was treated as a hero and she was just some mid-level bureaucrat. P and E could supply the CIA with enough intel and names to make them extremely valuable.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Tetraneutron

[Umbelina]

Nina would have probably been shot as a traitor right after they got any information they could from her about Stan and the FBI.  As it turned out, they had Anton, and needed something from him, so decided to use Nina for that purpose.  Delay her punishment only, because nothing would have made them release her, other than a super high value trade offered by the west, which would never happen for a nothing like Nina.  Neither side had any further use for her, she was a pawn, not a player.

 

She was, from the moment they took her from the USA, a dead woman walking.  Frankly, she was dead from the moment she was burned.

 

I think there will be a great deal of fallout from the whole Nina/Anton/Oleg story, as we've talked about earlier in this thread.  I'm going to tag it, since the speculation came from the interviews, which yeah, technically not a spoiler, more of speculation, but I'll tag it anyway.

The whole Vladimir Vetrov story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Vetrov which will probably tie in both Oleg and Anton. 

http://www.amazon.com/Farewell-Greatest-Story-Twentieth-Century-ebook/dp/B004GKNIWM/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_img_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0B70KMG2WQXTP1ZD1ERJ

Edited April 8, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

She's smart, left-leaning, passionate, takes risks and can lie well enough to fool and FBI agent.

 

 

Gotta say, lying is one area I don't think she's particularly good at. Henry's a much much better natural liar. But lying is a pretty standard human thing so she could certainly get better at it. Elizabeth doesn't seem to be a natural liar either (in that she doesn't like lying) but she got good at it.

 

Maybe they feel they would be treated better than average citizens there?  Dragging their kids into that closed world though, I have to admit I was shocked when Philip said Odessa.  It never occurred to me that he would consider taking Paige and Henry to a place with little food, less medicine, and deprivation they had never known.

 

 

I think they probably would be treated fairly well--they're heroes. But besides that I think both of them can't help but project their own feelings onto others. Compared to what Philip would have experienced in his childhood he probably thinks their life in Russia now would probably be great. If nothing else his kids would have a stable family to look out for them. For all Elizabeth worries about his attachment to material goods, he's adaptable imo. For him being with family is the most important thing so he wouldn't see losing all those beautiful as a big tragedy. Material goods to Philip, I think, can come and go. He'd do anything to keep his family together so he feels like other people would too.

 

Umbelina Philip talked about defecting in the early episodes. Elizabeth accused him of getting soft and falling in love with American luxuries.

 

 

Philip did talk about it in the pilot (when his plan was to trade Timoshev for Witness Protection and that's it--no "giving speeches"--whether he thought about turning in his colleagues is unclear) but they haven't talked about it since. Except for when they were kidnapped in Trust Me and Philip thought Elizabeth had ratted on him for that--and she revealed no, she'd just been telling their bosses for years his enjoyment of luxuries spelled traitor. It seemed like killing Timoshev was the moment he basically said there would be no defection unless she wanted it.

 

So he suggested defection and she said no. No he's suggested running back to the USSR and she said no. Maybe next is running. All of these things are also reflected in other characters: Timoshev defected and was murdered. Gregory was an American offered a cushy relocation to Moscow and chose to be killed instead. Irina tried to run away and disappear (maybe--who the hell knows if anything about Irina is true?) and got thrown in jail and possibly executed.

[scrb]

There were defections for propagandistic reasons too, like famous athletes, maybe dissident journalists and writers.

 

Maybe some low-level KGB agents wouldn't have such value.

 

Considering how much killing Philip and Elizabeth did, they may be allowed to defect, unless the White House tried to parade them for propaganda reasons over the objections of the FBI.

 

I think they could just use their skills and create their own witness protection program, moving somewhere and changing their names, doing boring jobs.

 

Or if they can name some other illegals or key spies, then the FBI might be willing to put them into witness protection.  But they'd probably fare better on their own.

[SlovakPrincess]

I ... should not have watched that after having a shitty work day. Now I'm even more depressed!

:( Oh, Nina. :'(

I did love that her dream was not just to save herself, but to save Anton, too. :'(

I am wondering if this will lead to Oleg turning on his country. Or if his story is kinda over now, too?

So I wonder what Gabriel offered the Centre to back off the plan to kill Tim and Alice ...

I really liked William in this episode. And Elizabeth acknowledging that she knows Philip would rather live a normal life in America, and that she has empathy for those feelings.

Martha thinks on her feet pretty well!

Ok, gonna need a drink after that episode!!

[Tetraneutron]

So I wonder what Gabriel offered the Centre to back off the plan to kill Tim and Alice ...

I really liked William in this episode. And Elizabeth acknowledging that she knows Philip would rather live a normal life in America, and that she has empathy for those feelings.

Martha thinks on her feet pretty well!

Ok, gonna need a drink after that episode!!

We saw that. Gabriel offered to say that not killing Pastor Tim will pay off when they recruit Paige. In other words, the Centre is back to expecting P and E to groom Paige as a spy.

I actually thought Martha made a dumb move. Won't Stan and Aderhold now look into Martha's married lover? I assume she's not really married, that Philip never filed the paperwork. But a few days of tailing her will reveal that the man she's in a relationship is "married" to another woman. And it's Stan's neighbor.

[babyPhat279]

I'm surprised so many people think Nina's story went nowhere. It wasn't as action packed as the other storylines, but I thought what we got to see was Nina coming to terms with herself. I think, based on her discussions with Anton, that she felt she had redeemed herself. Not in the eyes of the USSR, but as part of her personal morality. She touched someone emotionally and vice versa (as evidenced by her smiling at Anton's letter last week), and not as part of some sexual or spy-related relationship. She tried sending the note to his son to do something that she felt was right, not some action that was dictated to her by either the Rezidentura or the FBI. Of course she was still upset to find out she was going to be executed (most people would be), but I think by then she at least found peace with herself.

 

I think this was also meant to be like a slap of reality to the audience about how the Soviet Union operates. Maybe it was humane to do it so quick, but it's still pretty harsh. It makes me wonder why, since the beginning of the show, the Jennings' have felt comfortable pushing back on their handlers. Are they not afraid of some sort of punishment for not being good little soldiers? Or are we supposed to think they are the "best of the best" and so have the leeway to speak their mind?