S01.E12: Guilty

[WendyCR72]

Nurse Lockwood gets arrested for refusing to violate hospital policy and draw blood from a suspected DUI patient without his consent. Dr. Halstead discusses with his lawyer the severity of the pending lawsuit against him. Elsewhere, Dr. Manning and Sharon Goodwin deal with a single mother and her 6-month old, but when the baby's injuries come into question, concerns are raised. Meanwhile, Dr. Charles, who is dealing with some personal issues, and Sarah Reese attend to a patient that was hit by a car, but suspicions abound when they dig deeper.

[preeya]

After such a long layoff I would have expected a better effort. The hospital was a disaster and the episode sucked.

[scarynikki12]

Halstead 2.0 will never learn will he?  The worst.

 

For those who don't watch PD, the two seasons have had major supporting deaths towards the end.  The season 2 death character was introduced during season 1 so that the audience could establish a relationship and therefore care when the death occurred.  We cared about the season 1 death as that character was also introduced early enough to establish a relationship with the audience.  Well, PD is in season 3 now and, if the pattern holds, we're due for a death of a supporting/recurring character. 

 

I bring this up in the Med forum because I want to nominate Halstead 2.0.  He gets killed off and it can be crossover city like the season 2 death (crossed with SVU).  It would impact both shows, as both casts know and somehow like him and it would affect Halstead personally and give Intelligence a case to solve (cause it would so be murder given how he behaves). 

 

Because Med is setting up Halstead 2.0's murder for being stupid so perfectly that I wish it were real.  He still doesn't understand that he did anything wrong and we've reached the point where he has to be physically restrained so that he doesn't continue to cross lines he shouldn't.  He pisses people off in every episode so the list of suspects would be very long should he get killed.  It would be so perfect! 

 

I hope Dr. Charles gets his dosage right.  I only want good things for him.  And why do they keep assigning Reese cases and then remind us she's in her fourth year of med school?  They really should have made her a first year intern.  Then I wouldn't have to yell at my tv.  At least about this point.

[Margherita Erdman]

Halstead 2.0 will never learn will he?  The worst.

 

For those who don't watch PD, the two seasons have had major supporting deaths towards the end.  The season 2 death character was introduced during season 1 so that the audience could establish a relationship and therefore care when the death occurred.  We cared about the season 1 death as that character was also introduced early enough to establish a relationship with the audience.  Well, PD is in season 3 now and, if the pattern holds, we're due for a death of a supporting/recurring character. 

 

I bring this up in the Med forum because I want to nominate Halstead 2.0.  He gets killed off and it can be crossover city like the season 2 death (crossed with SVU).  It would impact both shows, as both casts know and somehow like him and it would affect Halstead personally and give Intelligence a case to solve (cause it would so be murder given how he behaves). 

 

Because Med is setting up Halstead 2.0's murder for being stupid so perfectly that I wish it were real.  He still doesn't understand that he did anything wrong and we've reached the point where he has to be physically restrained so that he doesn't continue to cross lines he shouldn't.  He pisses people off in every episode so the list of suspects would be very long should he get killed.  It would be so perfect!

Oh yes please kill Dr. Halstead. I don't care if it's a crossover episode, in any way integrated with the other Chicago shows, or makes any narrative sense at all. I don't care if we see any reaction from his brother or any other character. He could die offscreen and we could all pretend after the hiatus he never existed. Or he could just go back to Los Angeles.

At least spare us all the long angsty minutes devoted to his storylines. I feel like there's a new, extra boring mini show Chicago Law: Malpractice Edition now tucked in every episode set in Goodwin's office when we have to watch bickering about strategy and deposition prep over the stupid stupid DNR case.

Oh and now that he's discovered he hasn't "saved" her, he's going to magically flip his poor abused former patient from the control group to the group receiving the experimental treatment, in a double blind study? Good luck with that.

I'm in a clinical trial at a major teaching/research hospital for an IV-administered biologic drug seeking FDA approval, and the facility for all patients participating in new drug/treatment protocol research is totally separate from the main hospital. Separate building, separate staff, including separate pharmacy & pharmacist — I can't imagine there isn't a similar setup at other major academic medical centers.

And the Maggie arrest — I think my eyes rolled out of my head. Plus, am I the only one who remembers that Voight committed a number of felonies including stalking, menacing, and attempted murder, and actually served time in prison, trying to get his own son clear of a DUI? So maybe he's not in the best position to pull strings getting Maggie out of trouble (however ludicrous) for an action that will result in a drunk and reckless driver going scot-free.

And and, as long as I'm ranting, bland and dumb Dr. Manning with her condescension about the poor (in all senses) stressed out single mom, tut-tutting that there will be no support for her, then going back to whatever else doctor-y she was doing at the computer — I wanted to give *her* a good shake! If the show is going to be all preachy and provide public service announcement-style storylines about vaccinations and endogenous depression and the various manifestations of veterans' PTSD, then it has an obligation to note that once an infant or child is diagnosed with an illness, injury, or disability affecting normal childhood development, the child and family have access to a whole host of no- and low-cost supports and services, not just medical. The hospital social worker(s) would have been all over it, hooking the mom up with respite care, in home therapies and other interventions, an ongoing case worker, etc. By the time the baby was discharged, that mom would have been *plugged in*, not alone at all.

I hope Dr. Charles gets his dosage right.  I only want good things for him.

Oliver Platt is still my favorite thing about this show, and the most watchable, and probably what keeps it on the DVR list despite the awful redheaded troll. I have mixed feelings about the reveal that he is himself living with major depression (at least). Clichéd, boo, but explaining deep empathy and consistent with many gifted mental health professionals deriving insight from their own struggles, yay. Undermines his role as the wise man and mentor of the hospital (grubby stained shirt and going off meds on his own say-so), boo, but Nora Dunn as his psychiatrist, yay. I guess we'll see how it unfolds. Edited March 30, 2016 by Margherita Erdman

[starri]

I hate that this show keeps presenting things that aren't actually ethical dilemmas as such.  It doesn't matter what hospital policy is or isn't with respect to suspected child abuse, doctors are mandatory reporters.  I get that Natalie felt bad about reporting the woman for something that was ultimately baseless, but legally and morally, she was absolutely correct to do so.

 

If I didn't love Dr. Charles and Reese so much, their story would likely have annoyed me for the same reasons.

 

The charge nurse may be the boss of the nurses, but he or she is not the boss of the doctors.  I guess in the twilight realm of Chicago Med, the hospital without attendings, Maggie is the law.

 

Halstead...yeah, I got nothing.

 

Also, heparin does not work that way.

[Lady Calypso]

LOL, what an episode.

 

Dr. McDouche, welcome back! I didn't miss you! Now it's getting to the point where he has to be physically restrained from doing bad things. He's just so ridiculous, I'm so glad his blonde friend ratted him out to Rhodes. I still love the silent glare coming from the woman that he wrong. Yet, I still bet once she finds out she's on the placebo, McDouche still convinces them to put her on the real thing, she gets better, and then she thanks McDouche and drops the lawsuit altogether. It'll just take to the end of the season to get there. 

 

Dr. Charles! Reese! Still the best relationship on this show. So, Dr. Charles has depression. That's interesting. I knew something was off, but I couldn't tell what. I should have figured his storyline would align with his case's. 

 

It's nice to see that Rhodes is still in my list of favourites. I'll be honest, Colin Donnell made me really feel for Rhodes when he was telling Maggie his story in the car. And the show actually surprised me with how that story ended! 

 

Ok, Maggie getting arrested is stupid all around, but whatever. The police girl was in the wrong, Maggie was in the wrong, and I just rolled my eyes at all of it. I also rolled my eyes at everyone standing around when Maggie came back. Dudes, she wasn't kidnapped or on her death bed! She was just in jail for a few hours! Stop being overdramatic!

 

I was ok with Manning feeling for the single mother. She doesn't annoy me too much, especially when she's not around McDouche.

 

I think we saw Choi for a few seconds? I can't quite remember, but I missed him. 

[bioprof]

Don't understand why the blood used for typing & crossmatch ( prior to surgery ) couldn't be used for blood alcohol level testing. Also....tie all up with a nice bow...Dr. Chemo gets hit by the car driven by the precious little snowflake that got off the hook for drunken driving. Dr. Chemo gets hit as he runs across the street trying frantically to deliver the "real" chemo drug to the hospital before DNR patient gives up the ghost.....jes sayin'....

[blxckbird]

tbh halstead is acting like he's fresh out of med school or something with his moral complex... i mean, i know he's "only" there on a fellowship but still :/ i mean, telling someone they're on a placebo, really?

 

EDIT: sorry, i forgot, i think that rhodes is actually on a fellowship and not halstead :D

Edited March 31, 2016 by blxckbird

[starri]

tbh halstead is acting like he's fresh out of med school or something with his moral complex... i mean, i know he's "only" there on a fellowship but still :/ i mean, telling someone they're on a placebo, really?

I don't wish to be any more charitable to Halstead than I absolutely have to, but I THINK the reason he was trying to break the protocol was that, since the woman wasn't actually being helped by the drug, she could go home and spend whatever time she's got remaining with her family and not in the hospital.

 

Of course, the idiot didn't bother thinking through enough to realize that just because he ignored her wishes and got her enrolled in the trial, she wouldn't automatically be getting the drug...

 

 

Don't understand why the blood used for typing & crossmatch ( prior to surgery ) couldn't be used for blood alcohol level testing. 

Can't release patient information without a court order.

[SunnyBeBe]

I think I must like this show more than most of you.  I find it very interesting and I actually like most of the characters, though some can be frustrating.  It's one of my new favorite shows. 

[Texasmom1970]

I was pleading for Rhodes to let Halstead go tell. Losing his licence and getting booted would have made the episode for me!

[Ailianna]

Can't release patient information without a court order.

 

The physical blood isn't patient information.

[Xantar]

Even if they were required to get a court order, it wouldn't exactly be a difficult case to make to the judge.

 

"Your Honor, based upon the suspect's behavior at the scene of the crash statements from witnesses, I have probable cause to believe the suspect was intoxicated. Please issue a warrant to test his blood sample."

[MakeMeLaugh]

The plots were pretty obvious.

I can't believe this show is dragging out the Halsted malpractice stuff--just settle already like the real world would have. It is like the Boden persecution that turned Chicago Fire into a snore.

Maggie probably needed to call in a higher-up about the police demanding the blood before refusing and being arrested. I was surprised the demand didn't get escalated on both sides (I was sort of hoping she wouldn't ever be let out). I imagine the hospital would have tested for the BAC level so they could adjust medications, and the cops/prosecutors could no doubt go to court to get it.

[blxckbird]

I don't wish to be any more charitable to Halstead than I absolutely have to, but I THINK the reason he was trying to break the protocol was that, since the woman wasn't actually being helped by the drug, she could go home and spend whatever time she's got remaining with her family and not in the hospital.

 

Of course, the idiot didn't bother thinking through enough to realize that just because he ignored her wishes and got her enrolled in the trial, she wouldn't automatically be getting the drug...

 

Yeah, but still you don't tell someone they're on a placebo... if he really wanted to help her he could've tried to make them give her the real medication behind her back or something.. idk :D

[Xantar]

In real life, if there was clear evidence that the new drug actually was effective compared to the placebo, the drug trial would have to be stopped and the drug made available to all test subjects. That's just one of the ethical rules. So in reality, Halstead getting that patient on the real drug instead of placebo is probably useless.

[Calamity Jane]

Well, at least this show got it right that subjects are not told if they are receiving a placebo or the drug in a clinical trial.  I've seen so many where everybody knows who's getting the placebo, which in the real world, not even the doctor doing the trial is supposed to know, right?  Isn't that the meaning of "double blind"?

 

Just cannot stand how they have written Halstead.  Please, please fix that. 

[starri]

Just cannot stand how they have written Halstead.  Please, please fix that. 

Or send a rogue helicopter after him.  I hear that's a thing in Chicago.

 

Either or.

[Sandman]

Oliver Platt is still my favorite thing about this show, and the most watchable, and probably what keeps it on the DVR list despite the awful redheaded troll. I have mixed feelings about the reveal that he is himself living with major depression (at least). Clichéd, boo, but explaining deep empathy and consistent with many gifted mental health professionals deriving insight from their own struggles, yay. Undermines his role as the wise man and mentor of the hospital (grubby stained shirt and going off meds on his own say-so), boo, but Nora Dunn as his psychiatrist, yay. I guess we'll see how it unfolds.

 

I think the Charles-Reese relationship is my favourite one on the show. I'm liking the potential of Nora Dunn as "Danny's" therapist.

 

The physical blood isn't patient information.

 

But use of a sample given for one purpose to fulfill a different one could violate the rule against self-incrimination; I think they would still need a court order. But I agree that the resolution of Maggie's "dilemma" is not to send the Emergency Department Charge Nurse to jail -- even in Chicago.

 

Call me naïve, but I think the fact that Rhodes actually got through to Red Halstead might have been some kind of turning point in the Douche Chronicles.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Sandman

[NJ RadioGuy]

I think in the real world, any cop who tried to pull that kind of a stunt would be very clearly reminded that shot cops are treated by these same ER folks and they're not a group of people you want to piss off over what would be a relatively minor DUI case. Nobody died, the DoucheBro is probably in his late teens so likely isn't a repeat offender.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, and I certainly don't know Illinois laws at all, but the patient/suspect refused to give a blood sample in front of witnesses. In many places that in itself carries the same penalties as DUI, so the end result would be a conviction and loss of DoucheBro's license for a year or 6 months or whatever the actual penalty is. No way that case would end up with jail time, I'm sorry to say. Especially if RichDaddy hires a good attorney and pleads it out to something that keeps the DA happy.

 

As to the other story lines, good ghods, stop it with the anvils already. I don't give a shit about most of the main characters and I haven't gotten to know enough of the supporting characters yet for them to make a difference. I only like Reese, Charles and Rhodes in the entire place. Halstead is just awful and Saint Manning makes me wretch more often than not. Choi is so bad I fast forward through his scenes mostly.

 

Here's an idea. Have those three out at Molly's or maybe doing something at the 21st District station house and then drop a fleet of helicopters on Med and have done with it.

Edited April 1, 2016 by NJ RadioGuy

[SunnyBeBe]

Most sates have implied consent laws about drunk driving and blood tests and if you are driving within the state or have an operator's license you are consenting to have your blood drawn by law enforcement.  No court order is needed. IMO, the blood draw would have happened on the way to his surgery.  But, they had to have a script.  Their tech people don't always get it right.    

[MakeMeLaugh]

In Illinois/Chicago you can refuse the breathalyzer/BAC testing--you will automatically lose your license for several months as a result and may still arrested but it is not a conviction and will be harder to prove.

Edited April 1, 2016 by MakeMeLaugh

[statsgirl]

The blood test and Maggie arrest was just unnecessary drama. Either the patient had the right to refuse a blood test, in which case it was illegal to arrest Maggie, or he didn't, in which case Maggie shouldn't have said anything.  Story closed.

 

I knew Natalie was going to be wrong about the mother causing shaken baby syndrome.  In my province, there have been two coroners in recent years who sent parents to jail, sometimes for ten years or more, saying that they caused the baby's death and in reality it turned out to be an artifact of the way the EMTs tried to resuscitate the kid.  So many lives ruined, including the siblings who had to be put in other homes because their mother or father wasn't around.

 

The one case I rolled my eyes over was Charles diagnosing suicide attempts on such flimsy evidence because he's usually  much better than that. Then it turned out that he was suffering depression himself and it took one to know one.  I really liked that they put in the bit about the man not wanting to admit to being depressed because he has such a good life and he was ashamed of his feelings. That's very realistic and it should be known more to help end the stigma of mental illness.

 

I'm in a clinical trial at a major teaching/research hospital for an IV-administered biologic drug seeking FDA approval, and the facility for all patients participating in new drug/treatment protocol research is totally separate from the main hospital. Separate building, separate staff, including separate pharmacy & pharmacist — I can't imagine there isn't a similar setup at other major academic medical centers.

I was in an anti-cancer drug clinical trial, also at a major teaching hospital, and we got the IV drug right there in the main oncology daycare room.  It's an inner city hospital so there isn't really room for a separate building.

 

The thing about drug trials that people like Halstead forget is that sometimes getting the experimental drug actually makes things worse.  Mine did (fortunately only the side effects, not the cancer).  I volunteered for the study because I wanted to pay back the people who had volunteered for the drugs I was getting but it's a crap shoot if the drug will make you better or worse, even if you're in the drug group and not the placebo group..

 

tbh halstead is acting like he's fresh out of med school or something with his moral complex... i mean, i know he's "only" there on a fellowship but still :/ i mean, telling someone they're on a placebo, really?

 

EDIT: sorry, i forgot, i think that rhodes is actually on a fellowship and not halstead :D

Halstead is a resident like Manning, isn't he?  Rhodes, as a trauma fellow, outranks him.

[blxckbird]

Halstead is a resident like Manning, isn't he?  Rhodes, as a trauma fellow, outranks him.

Yeah, I mixed that up :$

[Ailianna]

Sandman said:

 

Ailianna, on 30 Mar 2016 - 11:12 PM, said:

 

The physical blood isn't patient information.

 

But use of a sample given for one purpose to fulfill a different one could violate the rule against self-incrimination; I think they would still need a court order. But I agree that the resolution of Maggie's "dilemma" is not to send the Emergency Department Charge Nurse to jail -- even in Chicago.

 

You would get a search warrant to seize the hospital treatment blood, but that isn't as time sensitive, because the alcohol (in this case) isn't being metabolized out of his system while you get it.  Not technically the same as a court order, but still reviewed by a judge. 

 

The sample doesn't violate the rule against self-incrimination, because that protection only applies to statements, not physical characteristics, not actions, not blood samples.  If it applied to anything you could get from a suspect's body, you could never get fingerprints or DNA either.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Ailianna

[KDB]

Curious about something: When Goodwin went to the police station to try to get Maggie released, why did she go to Voight instead of Platt. If it was a patrol officer who arrested Maggie, wouldn't the case be more under her authority?

[statsgirl]

I don't watch CPD but isn't Voight higher ranking than Platt?  You'd tend to go to the highest-ranking person you know, and she knows Voiight better than she does Platt, I think.  But what she really should have done is take the hospital's lawyer with her..

 

Biggest medical error of the episode:  Halstead realized that the woman was in the placebo group because she was given a drug that was contraindicated by (i.e. should not be used with) the experimental drug.  If the drug study was double bind, and it absolutely should have been to get it FDA approved, the treating doctors should not have known which group each patient is in.

[KDB]

I think both Platt and Voight are sergeants and have equal authority. Platt seems to be in charge of the patrol officers and Voight is in charge of the Intelligence unit.

Someone a while ago pointed out that the actress who plays Goodwin used to play a police lieutenant in the Law and Order universe. The means that it is possible that a future crossover episode with SVU could occur with a character who might have interacted with the actress in both roles.

[Netfoot]

Someone in the Props department needs to be fired.  Baby Grace's files were "signed" by three Consulting Radiologists:  Dr. Jane Doe, MD, Dr. John Doe, MD and finally, Dr. Dave Doe, MD.  

 

Everyone loves Dr. Charles... except me.  And that guy got put on a psych-hold on the flimsiest of evidence.  That needed to be a mistake, but I guess Dr. Charles has to be Dr. Infallible...

 

I knew it wasn't SBS the moment Dr. Manning said "I can not draw any other conclusion..."

 

Will someone please explain the "Helicopter Crash" references in the forum?

[starri]

Will someone please explain the "Helicopter Crash" references in the forum?

Dr. Romano was a rather...unpleasant...surgeon on ER.  One season, he was helping upload a patient from a helicopter, and managed to get his arm too close to the tail rotor, amputating his arm.

 

The very next season, he was standing outside the hospital brooding, and a different helicopter crashed on the hospital roof and ended up falling on top of him and crushing him to death.  If possible, this was even more absurd than it sounds.

[Netfoot]

Thank you for the concise explanation.  And especially for the YT video link which was... incredible, in the truest sense of the word.  

 

Yup, doctors / helicopters / Chicago?  Don't seem to mix well.

[SnarkySheep]

I think Sharon Goodwin went to Voight first because it seems everyone in Chicago at this point knows he can make things happen. He's the guy with the connections.

 

I don't claim to know anything about such things...but if there had been some area of concern seen in the baby's ultrasound following mom's car accident, wouldn't she have been told about it? It just seemed weird to me that mom had no clue until Manning saw it.

[Shades of Red]

On 3/30/2016 at 2:56 PM, bioprof said:

Don't understand why the blood used for typing & crossmatch ( prior to surgery ) couldn't be used for blood alcohol level testing. Also....tie all up with a nice bow...Dr. Chemo gets hit by the car driven by the precious little snowflake that got off the hook for drunken driving. Dr. Chemo gets hit as he runs across the street trying frantically to deliver the "real" chemo drug to the hospital before DNR patient gives up the ghost.....jes sayin'....

I just started watching this and catching up on the threads for this.  I used to work in a lab and can tell you that in order to draw blood for an alcohol level special procedures have to be in place.  The area the needle will puncture needs to be cleaned with something other than an alcohol swab, the tube the sample is collected in has to remain sealed until it gets to the lab for testing, which means the tube is parafilmed and no other testing is done on the sample.   Different tubes have different anticoagulants in them, so depending on the tests requested, there may not have been a correct tube taken.  Blood used for typing and crossmatching is taking in a tube with a different anticoagulant in it than the tube for testing alcohol levels.