S04.E01: Glanders

[RedHawk]

I'd like this to go even a step further- that Pastor Tim thinks Paige is genuinely disturbed and that's part of his motivation for trying to get her parents in. He knows they don't like him, but surely, surely, they care enough about their daughter to understand that she's a deeply troubled girl who with some bizarre beliefs?  

Because no matter how seriously you take the Cold War and Russian Spies, the idea of them showing up in your own little backyard is faintly ridiculous... even when it's not.

Unless you live in Falls Church, VA, in 1983? The spy game was quite real to residents of the DC area, many of whom knew people who worked for the FBI, CIA, or NSA. 

 

I can't tell what Pastor Tim thinks about the whole situation. If he really did think Paige's parents were Soviet spies, I think he would be worried about her welfare. I guess we didn't see her whole chat with him -- for example, did she tell him that they straight out told her they were working for their country, the Soviet Union? Wouldn't he have asked for more details and info? Hmmm... I need to re-watch.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Paige Is A Potential Powder Keg In The Premiere Of The Americans
Philip and Elizabeth are trying to deal with an asset who could get Soviets closer to developing a bioweapon, so Paige's wavering BS is, like, the last thing they need added to their list of hassles.

[lucindabelle]

Pastor Tim creeps me the hell out. He's encouraging Paige to turn on her parents. Did we know Nina was married?

[madam magpie]

Pastor Tim creeps me the hell out. He's encouraging Paige to turn on her parents. Did we know Nina was married?

I didn't! Glad it wasn't just me.

Pastor Tim has to be some kind of undercover agent, right??

[sistermagpie]

Did we know Nina was married?

 

 

She said she was to her cellmate, but at the time we had no way of knowing if she was telling the truth or not.

[shura]

Pastor Tim creeps me the hell out. He's encouraging Paige to turn on her parents.

 

I don't know if he is, necessarily, but all right. What would you pick, your parents or your country and your way of life? That scene where Paige is waiting out the Pledge of Allegiance - what does it mean? Is she ready to turn on her country because she doesn't want to lose her parents?

[J-Man]

Why is Paige in a class with all Down syndrome children?

[VCRTracking]

Nina: "I want to see my husband."

 

Damn, I was more surprised when she said that than when she said she was pregnant with an alien baby in the X-Files revival!

 

It's clear by now that while Elizabeth is the more ruthless when it comes to duty to her country, Phillip is the darker soul. It was there before he was trained by the KGB.

 

They're blatantly making the wigs a  sight gag at this point. They must be!

Edited March 18, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Hecate7]

The question has always been does Philip love Martha? I flip flop on that often. Right now I am on yes. Maybe not enough to leave his family. Maybe he views Martha the way a man views his mistress. Yes I love you but why are you asking for more? It's a bad example but the only one I can come up with.

<---edited because I typed this on my phone during my lunch break.

 

Philip loves Martha WAY more than a man loves a mistress, or a wife. He loves her in the way a good, decent man loves a dog, those dear, amazing, uncomprehending creatures who simply gaze at us adoringly, occasionally astonishing us with their intelligence but mostly just being loyal and devoted, good and true. Most of us feel all the way down to our centers that the worst, most horrible sin in life is to betray that pure, innocent love and loyalty, or to repay it with cruelty or indifference.

 

Many people who would not kill for any other reason, would kill to protect their pets. Philip loves Elizabeth like a wife and a sister, an equal. He's got her back and he wants no secrets if possible. But Martha...she's loyal and trusting and loving and pure and good and true, and she's HIS responsibility. I hope for his sake he never has to choose between her safety and that of his family, because I don't know if he'd ever get over it.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

ITA that Philip loves Martha the way people love their loyal adoring pets who are dependent upon them to be taken care of. At first she was just another asset but due to the long con he has played with her and all that she has done for him, he now sees her as his responsibility, someone who must be protected because it's his fault she's in this situation. I also agree that the only way this situation will end for her is being killed, most likely by Philip, and he is going to sink into some seriously deep dark self-loathing when it happens. It might not be for years, but I think it's inevitable. The Soviets aren't going to leave a loose end like that. Once she is no longer useful to them, she will be deemed a liability (someone who can give details about Philip and all the things he asked her to do) and they will dispose of her.

 

During the Paige/Pastor Tim scene, I thought the only thing worse than Paige talking to Pastor Tim about this would be Paige going to an EST seminar with Pastor Tim and then having these conversations about her parents with him through that lens. Similarly, hilarious when Stan's friend with benefits told him that he should talk to his boss about his truth. I can totally see that going well at the FBI.

 

Totally loved when Tatiana basically told Arkady that what she was doing was above his pay grade and that she wouldn't be telling him anything. You know that burned him because that's usually what he tells the underlings.

I see. Well, I hope Stan is more analytical and evidence-oriented in his FBI work than he was here. He knows that Sandra and Philip were friends before his marriage fell apart. He knows all of them went to EST at one time or another and they just might have bumped into each other there again. He knows Sandra has that Arthur guy in her life. He shouldn't rush to judgement and start beating up people and ending friendships just because his girlfriend thinks she saw something. Love, I suppose. At least he was considerate enough not to accuse Philip in front of his wife.

I was cracking up that Stan, who is sleeping with another woman, had the gall to ask Philip if he was sleeping with his wife. Bros before hos, blah blah blah, but the bottom line is Stan and his wife are separated. He knew she was LIVING with another man. Stan is now hooking up with that other woman. He knows that both Philip and Sandra have been to EST seminars. Yet he jumps to the conclusion that they are sleeping together because his fuck buddy said she saw them out in public together? And even when Philip denied it, Stan still didn't believe him. So yeah, Stan can eat a dick.

 

Wonderful to have the show back in our lives! It gave us so many things to think about, but the laugh-out-loud moment for me was when P & E were waiting for the bio-terrorism contact and started talking about Henry's terrible cologne. Moments like that are emblematic of the show's wonderful blend of the conflicting businesses of spying and parenting.

I was totally cracking up during that scene. Elizabeth can come off as a bit cold and stand offish because she is so focused on the mission and maintaining her persona, but that was such a normal parent conversation to have.

[AlliMo]

Phillip has always been less devoted to "the cause" than Elizabeth, and more emotionally conflicted about the things that he has to do. I could see him being put in the situation where Martha had to die as being the thing that finally broke him. I'd find it more likely that someone else kills her and he's unable to forgive himself for having put her in danger.

[albaniantv]

Agree with you, AlliMo and just hoping that it's not Elizabeth or Paige who has to kill Martha. I want to be wrong because I find Martha fascinating, but to save the fab four,  would give her up.

 

I think but am not 100% sure Claudia was in the previews and whenever she shows up, bodies tend to accumulate at a higher rate.

[RedHawk]

Why is Paige in a class with all Down syndrome children?

That was the oddest-looking bunch of random kids. Some didn't even appear to be teenagers.

[txhorns79]

It's clear by now that while Elizabeth is the more ruthless when it comes to duty to her country, Phillip is the darker soul. It was there before he was trained by the KGB.

 

I'd say it's more that Phillip has a much darker history than Elizabeth.  In terms of his soul, he clearly is torn and almost overwhelmed by guilt over the things he has done.  I would think someone with a dark soul wouldn't spend their time agonizing the way Philip does.  They would just kill whomever they needed to, and move on without regret.   

[Anne Elk]

Hooray, my show is back! 

 

I guess I shouldn't have been surprised about Phillip's adolescent murder spree. The show has pointed out many times that what makes him such a good spy is his incredible ability to compartmentalize. Ruthless, brutally violent killer one minute, blandly ordinary family guy the next. The KGB probably had some psychological tests that picked up on that kind of personality and that's how Phillip got their attention. Languages, technology, sexual prowess -- all that can be taught. But they didn't have to teach Phillip how to be a cold-blooded killer, that came naturally. 

 

Amazing how the Martha/Clark relationship that seemed so predictable when it started has developed in so many surprising ways. And it is interesting that Phillip can't confide in Elizabeth or Gabriel -- who seem increasingly concerned that he's less effective as an agent -- and now he's lost even the minor outlet he had with Sandra and EST. Martha is the only one left he can share his inner turmoil with. No wonder he wants to protect her.

 

I wondered if Pastor Tim might be thinking he can use his pastoring skills on Paige and her parents to win them over and  then promote himself as some kind of peace movement leader. 1983 was right around the time of Samantha Smith and her trip to the Soviet Union, and many people were protesting against nuclear buildup and in favor of detente. It could be he's sincere in his beliefs, just naive about the people he's up against.

 

Power games at the Rezidentura! I hope they develop this plot, I like the Russian actors and I feel like they don't get enough to do plotwise. And I want to find out who Nina's husband is before the show writes her off, as I fear they will soon do.

 

How ironic would it be if Phillip ended up dying at the hands of the local FBI agent -- because of some ridiculous imaginary jealous love triangle? They seem to be going all in on making Stan a total asshole. So now I'm rooting for the brutally murderous KGB operative to defeat the asshole FBI agent. Nice job, show.

[SlackerInc]

The thing with everyone "hating" Stan at the office, I'm fuzzy on.  He says his boss wants to execute him, but his boss's boss wants to give him a medal.  Was that about Vlad?  Something to do with going around Gaad to go look at that Defense Dept. computer?  Getting beat up by Oleg?  Or something else I'm forgetting?

 

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Paige Is A Potential Powder Keg In The Premiere Of The Americans
Philip and Elizabeth are trying to deal with an asset who could get Soviets closer to developing a bioweapon, so Paige's wavering BS is, like, the last thing they need added to their list of hassles.

 

I enjoyed that, especially the long series of meme-style pics of Stan and Martha at the copier.

[AllyB]

The thing with everyone "hating" Stan at the office, I'm fuzzy on.  He says his boss wants to execute him, but his boss's boss wants to give him a medal.  Was that about Vlad?  Something to do with going around Gaad to go look at that Defense Dept. computer?  Getting beat up by Oleg?  Or something else I'm forgetting?

It's because he secretly worked with Oleg to prove Zenaida was KGB. He also worked Oleg with a view to being able to blackmail him into becoming a KGB asset. All with an ultimate plan to bring Nina back to America.

 

From Gaad's point of view his agent secretly ran a very dangerous, potentially very compromising operation all by himself at a time when the security of their department was compromised by a KGB mole. And Stan could very easily be being used by the Russians because ultimately he is thinking with his dick. Stan is a loose cannon who has been at the root of many problems for Gaad. While he forgave him for killing Vlad, that on top of how he worked through series 3 and the discovery of the bug, means that Gaad can't trust him. So even though Stan has good instincts and outed Zenaida, Gaad feels he operates too dangerously, and has messed up loyalties so he wants him gone.

 

But Gaad's ultimate superior, the Director Attorney General, cares more about results than process. Stan outed Zenaida, he has a chance to completely compromise Oleg Burov and turn him into a reluctant, extremely valuable asset. So he praised Stan, told him his job was safe and that he'd remove any obstacles Gaad tries to put in front of him. Further infuriating Gaad, because his whole position is so completely undermined.

[benteen]

Really good episode.  I'm so glad The Americans is back.

 

Martha is totally committed to this train wreck now.  She really was/is the perfect mark.  I don't think Phillip loves her but I do think he cares about her.  The dog analogy is a good one.

 

Stan is an ass and a hypocrite.  Way to make sure everyone hates you, jackass!

Pastor Tim is a creep and I think he really believe he can "save" the Jennings.

 

I laughed at the whole exchange about Henry and his awful cologne.  The two of them don't know that the kid who really could be a great spy is his son.

[SlackerInc]

It's because he secretly worked with Oleg to prove Zenaida was KGB. He also worked Oleg with a view to being able to blackmail him into becoming a KGB asset. All with an ultimate plan to bring Nina back to America.

 

From Gaad's point of view his agent secretly ran a very dangerous, potentially very compromising operation all by himself at a time when the security of their department was compromised by a KGB mole. And Stan could very easily be being used by the Russians because ultimately he is thinking with his dick. Stan is a loose cannon who has been at the root of many problems for Gaad. While he forgave him for killing Vlad, that on top of how he worked through series 3 and the discovery of the bug, means that Gaad can't trust him. So even though Stan has good instincts and outed Zenaida, Gaad feels he operates too dangerously, and has messed up loyalties so he wants him gone.

 

But Gaad's ultimate superior, the Director Attorney General, cares more about results than process. Stan outed Zenaida, he has a chance to completely compromise Oleg Burov and turn him into a reluctant, extremely valuable asset. So he praised Stan, told him his job was safe and that he'd remove any obstacles Gaad tries to put in front of him. Further infuriating Gaad, because his whole position is so completely undermined.

 

Thanks, that was very helpful.  Can you remind me how he ended up outing Zenaida?  I remember she left a message in a diner bathroom, but I didn't think Stan found that.

 

Also, why would "everyone" at the office hate Stan now?  Isn't all of that stuff too secret for anyone but Gaad to know?

[Milburn Stone]

I don't know, I just can't buy that Martha would switch from naive-dupe-in-love to totally-knowing-spy-against-her-country. She now must know that Clark is not a government oversight guy as he originally presented himself, but instead an agent for an enemy power. And so she must know now that she is a traitorous spy. Maybe it happens in real life that people turn all their values and loyalties upside down for love (even at the cost of spending the rest of their lives in prison), but for some reason I'm having a hard time believing it in this case.

 

The actor playing the kidnapped Russian Jewish scientist now working in Siberia--he looked like a different actor to me than the guy who was playing him previously. I know I must be wrong since no one else is mentioning it.

[AllyB]

Thanks, that was very helpful.  Can you remind me how he ended up outing Zenaida?  I remember she left a message in a diner bathroom, but I didn't think Stan found that.

 

Also, why would "everyone" at the office hate Stan now?  Isn't all of that stuff too secret for anyone but Gaad to know?

Stan and Oleg worked together to form a very elaborate trap. Stan allowed Oleg to get into Zenaida's hotel room and threaten her, pretending to be a KGB agent who was unhappy with her constantly denouncing the USSR. If things had gone easily they hoped she'd crack and tell the KGB agent that she was also KGB but she held her cover. However, she reported back to the KGB that through some sort of miscommunication, a KGB agent had been sent after her. So Rezidentura agents were called to a meeting and told to make sure they and their agents only ran operations approved of by the Rezidentura. Once Oleg had that order it was a simple deduction that the reasoning behind it was to stop KGB agents from threatening Zenaida and that she was still active for the KGB.

 

Stan secretly taped Oleg telling him that Zenaida was KGB in the hopes of eventually being able to turn him into an FBI asset similar to what he thought he had in Nina. And in reality this was also a carrot/stick to the FBI to try and make sure they secured Nina's release. Ie, release Nina and we can secure an asset in the Rezidentura. So it was obvious to Gaad that Stan's loyalty was at least as much to Nina as it was to the FBI. And Gaad (and Aderholt) thinks Stan is a fool for trusting her as he has serious doubts about Nina's motivations and whether or not she was the 'good woman' Stan thinks she is.

 

What could bite Stan in the ass with the Russians though is that Oleg is listening to the Mail Robot tapes and is bound to eventually hear this conversation with Stan and Aderholt from ep 3:12;

Aderholt: I have a few more questions about Nina.

Beeman: What is with you?

Aderholt: I don’t know, Stan. There was something going on with you and Nina. That much is clear to me.

Stan: What are you accusing me of?

Aderholt: Did you plant the bug?

Stan: No. And you are not as smart as you look. You read all those files. Let’s say the woman I shot didn’t actually die. Maybe she’s the one who beat the shit out of you and Gaad. Maybe she even killed my partner, Chris Amador. Our office is a target of The Illegals. The best, most dangerous officers the KGB has. Now they got to somebody inside, and it wasn’t me. Work on that.

 

All said by a hallway as the mail robot was heard passing.

 

So Oleg will likely soon know that Stan is under suspicion in the FBI because of his relationship with Nina. And that Stan actually has great instincts, which would make him extremely dangerous to Directorate S agents if he was respected on his team. Couple that with his powerlessness based on how he couldn't come through on his promise to save Nina (and possibly Oleg will find out by then that Nina is fairly safe).  I can see the KGB further attempting to work Stan into an asset while he tries to work Oleg, with both thinking they have the upper hand. And perhaps once they know that Stan's feelings for Nina can still be used against him, she will be sent back?

 

Though I could also see Nina never setting foot outside of the USSR for as long as it exists/or the rest of her life, whichever is shorter.

Edited March 18, 2016 by AllyB

[windsprints]

I'm so glad to have this show back finally. I thought it was a strong premiere and I can't wait to see what happens next. I had to go read some recaps from last season after watching because I couldn't figure out what I had forgotten about and what we didn't know (Nina's husband). 

I think Martha will be killed before the end of the season. Stan is really good at believing his gut feelings and I think his gut is going to continue telling him that something is up with Martha and it is not only going to lead back to her spying on the FBI but also to Philip's cover. Philip will have to kill her and it will break his heart.

Agree with you, AlliMo and just hoping that it's not Elizabeth or Paige who has to kill Martha. I want to be wrong because I find Martha fascinating, but to save the fab four,  would give her up.

I think Martha will die at some point. I have no idea when but I keep thinking that every thing that happens could be the end for her. Perhaps its at the end of this season. If she does end up being killed I think it will be Elizabeth that kills her and that would set up a divide in the Jennings marriage going into next season.

Pastor Tim has to be some kind of undercover agent, right??

Pastor Tim is Willy Wonka. (sorry, I just keep seeing it every time they show Pastor Tim).

Edited March 18, 2016 by windsprints

[Clanstarling]

I don't know if he is, necessarily, but all right. What would you pick, your parents or your country and your way of life? That scene where Paige is waiting out the Pledge of Allegiance - what does it mean? Is she ready to turn on her country because she doesn't want to lose her parents?

In previous seasons, Paige has annoyed the crap out of me. But I have to say, right now, I feel for her. She's in an impossible position. What a terrible position to be in at so young an age.

The pastor creeps me out. But his probing questions, and his repeated encouragement to find out "what do they DO" makes me suspicious that he's some kind of agent himself (I don't really recall how Paige got into this specific church, but I think I remember there being some discussion about whether or not she was targeted).

On the other hand, some of the upthread posts came up with far more logical reactions - particularly the one where the pastor doesn't really believe Paige. Still, he creeps me out. I keep expecting him to do something inappropriate.

[margol29]

 

Poor Martha. She's getting sucked deeper and deeper into this whole thing. At least now she's getting some honesty from Philip so that's at least some comfort. But I'm still worried about her dying.

 

When Martha and Phillip were talking in his apartment, I was screaming at the TV for Phillip to check her for a wire. Especially when she was asking him details about Gene's death. I'm afraid this will end very badly for Martha

[sistermagpie]

I don't know if he is, necessarily, but all right. What would you pick, your parents or your country and your way of life? That scene where Paige is waiting out the Pledge of Allegiance - what does it mean? Is she ready to turn on her country because she doesn't want to lose her parents?

 

 

I think she's questioning where that line would be drawn. Is just not turning them in treason to her country? Which is her country if her parents have been secretly Russian all along? I think her focus is still herself now, who she is, who she wants to be, how she should act to be the person she wants to be.

 

With Pastor Tim, that is an intriguing question, what exactly he's trying to get her to do. I think he and Paige are both a bit clueless and make moves without being able to see the longterm results. Just as Paige talked to her Pastor the way she would about anything else, Pastor Tim's handling this as business as usual: reassure the kid, get her to confide, then bring up the Christian values they live by about doing good in the world. In this case he doesn't see it in geopolitical terms (he doesn't immediately say they're Russians and therefore working against them) but he does bring up them potentially "hurting" people. That's the type of thing they talk about in the group--lying, cheating, stealing, murdering, maiming. These would be things that good people would blow the whistle on. They question the ends justifying the means about maybe to stuff they do, like Pastor Tim getting arrested to protest nuclear arms, but I think they both expect everybody to stay firmly within the bounds of middle-class standard behavior. It was Elizabeth that brought up that possibility to Paige.

 

But I don't know if, when he brought up their responsibility, he was really making plans for what this would mean to Paige. Like, I don't know if he's trying to prepare her for life as a ward of the church or the state. I think, given his suggestions about talking, he might even think he can housebreak her parents. Allow them to continue their jobs but curb them of anything they might do about which he disapproves. Or something. So far I guess I have to just accept that he really is able to be okay with them being Illegals while also thinking it's his responsibility to make sure they follow all the school rules while doing so. And hopefully convert them and be a hero, probably.

 

Philip loves Martha WAY more than a man loves a mistress, or a wife. He loves her in the way a good, decent man loves a dog, those dear, amazing, uncomprehending creatures who simply gaze at us adoringly, occasionally astonishing us with their intelligence but mostly just being loyal and devoted, good and true.

 

 

I love this analogy. There's so many times I've almost said it but worried it would sound like I was calling Martha a dog. But I usually think of it whenever people talk about how Philip gets more comfort from Martha than cold, mean Elizabeth because she's a better wife being more soft and openly emotional. I always think well, yeah, that's why people get so much comfort from their dogs. It's still not the same as having a human being.

 

Maybe it happens in real life that people turn all their values and loyalties upside down for love (even at the cost of spending the rest of their lives in prison), but for some reason I'm having a hard time believing it in this case.

 

 

I don't know how much she's turned her loyalties upside down. It's hard to know what Martha is thinking because she really does hide quite a lot from everyone. She, like Clark/Philip, seems to be somebody who feels values through people rather than abstracts or ideals. She wants to adopt foster children who need help, she loves Clark, she cares about Gene being murdered. She also cares about her country, but when she discovered she'd already betrayed it and thought Clark was being pressured by "them" to get more info, she went with Clark. I think she sees them both as victims of people threatening them. Stan almost made a similar choice with Nina when he considered handing over the plans to Echo, but Stan ultimately wouldn't do that. He is in the end more about codes of behavior--and that has its drawbacks. Martha sees herself as saving Clark.

 

The pastor creeps me out. But his probing questions, and his repeated encouragement to find out "what do they DO" makes me suspicious that he's some kind of agent himself (I don't really recall how Paige got into this specific church, but I think I remember there being some discussion about whether or not she was targeted).

 

 

The thing is, if he was an agent he probably *wouldn't* be asking her these things. Actual agents have much better ways of getting the info they want. They now know these are two Illegals. They can bug their house, send other agents to watch and follow them, just arrest them already. There's zero reason for an actual professional organization to send a child in as a spy, or even to think the parents are going to give her information. What, after all, would they tell her? They told her they're Illegals and that's the biggest thing they've got. They're not going to tell her the details of what the Soviets are currently doing.

 

In fact, we even have an example of how an agent would do this with Jim. He hangs out with Kimmie so he can change the tapes but he's not telling her to ask her Dad what he does at work, where he's going out of town, etc. As far as she knows he has no interest in her dad outside of how he makes her feel.

 

As a regular guy, though, he would see Paige as his only source of juicy information here. She already gave him some, and he's curious and wants more. I think honestly he is incredibly curious without even realizing, actually. Dude runs a youth group where kids routinely talk about their parents affairs and petty crimes. He's probably a pretty practiced gossip--albeit one who only listens and doesn't pass on the info. People tell him secrets and he likes it. It's the most natural thing in the world to ask Paige to find out what's going on with her parents and talk to him about it.

 

As for Paige being targeted, there's really nothing that says she was targeted by anyone else than a Christian girl who targeted her as a potential convert because she was a kid searching for understanding and meaning. She brought her to the church group. Paige was ultimately more interested in the meaning of life and Pastor authority with the answers than any particular girl also in the group. There's really nothing special about this church--it leans left rather than right, but lots of churches would. It having a pastor like this is a definite complication, but not a very suspicious one. Any church with a youth group was going to have somebody in that role. 

 

When Martha and Phillip were talking in his apartment, I was screaming at the TV for Phillip to check her for a wire. Especially when she was asking him details about Gene's death. I'm afraid this will end very badly for Martha

 

 

But the FBI knows the details of Gene's death and Clark already confessed it to her. They wouldn't need him on tape doing anything. He's a spy, not a guy they're trying to gather evidence on to put on trial.

[Clanstarling]

I think she's questioning where that line would be drawn. Is just not turning them in treason to her country? Which is her country if her parents have been secretly Russian all along? I think her focus is still herself now, who she is, who she wants to be, how she should act to be the person she wants to be.

 

With Pastor Tim, that is an intriguing question, what exactly he's trying to get her to do. I think he and Paige are both a bit clueless and make moves without being able to see the longterm results. Just as Paige talked to her Pastor the way she would about anything else, Pastor Tim's handling this as business as usual: reassure the kid, get her to confide, then bring up the Christian values they live by about doing good in the world. In this case he doesn't see it in geopolitical terms (he doesn't immediately say they're Russians and therefore working against them) but he does bring up them potentially "hurting" people. That's the type of thing they talk about in the group--lying, cheating, stealing, murdering, maiming. These would be things that good people would blow the whistle on. They question the ends justifying the means about maybe to stuff they do, like Pastor Tim getting arrested to protest nuclear arms, but I think they both expect everybody to stay firmly within the bounds of middle-class standard behavior. It was Elizabeth that brought up that possibility to Paige.

 

But I don't know if, when he brought up their responsibility, he was really making plans for what this would mean to Paige. Like, I don't know if he's trying to prepare her for life as a ward of the church or the state. I think, given his suggestions about talking, he might even think he can housebreak her parents. Allow them to continue their jobs but curb them of anything they might do about which he disapproves. Or something. So far I guess I have to just accept that he really is able to be okay with them being Illegals while also thinking it's his responsibility to make sure they follow all the school rules while doing so. And hopefully convert them and be a hero, probably.

 

 

I love this analogy. There's so many times I've almost said it but worried it would sound like I was calling Martha a dog. But I usually think of it whenever people talk about how Philip gets more comfort from Martha than cold, mean Elizabeth because she's a better wife being more soft and openly emotional. I always think well, yeah, that's why people get so much comfort from their dogs. It's still not the same as having a human being.

 

 

I don't know how much she's turned her loyalties upside down. It's hard to know what Martha is thinking because she really does hide quite a lot from everyone. She, like Clark/Philip, seems to be somebody who feels values through people rather than abstracts or ideals. She wants to adopt foster children who need help, she loves Clark, she cares about Gene being murdered. She also cares about her country, but when she discovered she'd already betrayed it and thought Clark was being pressured by "them" to get more info, she went with Clark. I think she sees them both as victims of people threatening them. Stan almost made a similar choice with Nina when he considered handing over the plans to Echo, but Stan ultimately wouldn't do that. He is in the end more about codes of behavior--and that has its drawbacks. Martha sees herself as saving Clark.

 

 

The thing is, if he was an agent he probably *wouldn't* be asking her these things. Actual agents have much better ways of getting the info they want. They now know these are two Illegals. They can bug their house, send other agents to watch and follow them, just arrest them already. There's zero reason for an actual professional organization to send a child in as a spy, or even to think the parents are going to give her information. What, after all, would they tell her? They told her they're Illegals and that's the biggest thing they've got. They're not going to tell her the details of what the Soviets are currently doing.

 

In fact, we even have an example of how an agent would do this with Jim. He hangs out with Kimmie so he can change the tapes but he's not telling her to ask her Dad what he does at work, where he's going out of town, etc. As far as she knows he has no interest in her dad outside of how he makes her feel.

 

As a regular guy, though, he would see Paige as his only source of juicy information here. She already gave him some, and he's curious and wants more. I think honestly he is incredibly curious without even realizing, actually. Dude runs a youth group where kids routinely talk about their parents affairs and petty crimes. He's probably a pretty practiced gossip--albeit one who only listens and doesn't pass on the info. People tell him secrets and he likes it. It's the most natural thing in the world to ask Paige to find out what's going on with her parents and talk to him about it.

 

As for Paige being targeted, there's really nothing that says she was targeted by anyone else than a Christian girl who targeted her as a potential convert because she was a kid searching for understanding and meaning. She brought her to the church group. Paige was ultimately more interested in the meaning of life and Pastor authority with the answers than any particular girl also in the group. There's really nothing special about this church--it leans left rather than right, but lots of churches would. It having a pastor like this is a definite complication, but not a very suspicious one. Any church with a youth group was going to have somebody in that role. 

 

 

But the FBI knows the details of Gene's death and Clark already confessed it to her. They wouldn't need him on tape doing anything. He's a spy, not a guy they're trying to gather evidence on to put on trial.

You make good points, and I believe you are right that the pastor is not an agent. Once I read and absorbed the forum reactions, I thought other scenarios were more likely (and liked them more than my vague suspicions). As for the "targeting" of Paige, I did not remember what happened, just that there was some discussion about whether the girl had other motives than the obvious ones. Thanks for clarifying. Edited March 18, 2016 by clanstarling

[Umbelina]

Martha talking about adopting the children who needed help "We have SO MUCH..." was, I think, the moment Philip started to really care about her.  In a very real way, Martha was saying the kind of things that make him still want to believe in his cause, she was the "real thing" there, the good of it all.  Meanwhile, at home, Elizabeth was being all gung ho about getting Paige into the spying world, something Philip was horrified by.

 

So, I do like the "dog" analogy, and feel there is a lot of truth there, but there is more than that to this couple than that.  I think Philip has genuine feelings for her, they talk about things, she is is extremely loyal to him, whereas Elizabeth has always been "cause first" even though she's finally showing him affection now that her lover is gone.  Two different marriages, but yes, I think, emotionally at least, both are real in their own way.  Part of Philip seemed to really think of what it would be like to be married to Martha for real, bring his kids there, keep them safe from the KGB, where pretty much all Elizabeth could see is "Yay!  Now I can bond with my daughter, FINALLY, we'll work together for the cause!"  This was also right after folding a girl up into a suitcase that wasn't much older than Paige.

 

Those previews gave away almost too much, now I want it all to happen, although we've now seen the real reason Stan slams Philip against a wall, and it wasn't that he found out Philip was KGB.

 

From the moment the girl on the bus and the pastor came on this show I've thought he was KGB, and it made even more sense to me after the whole "recruit Paige" and "recruitment gone bad of their friend's son who killed his parents and sister."  When that happened, and Philip was resistant to bringing Paige into the KGB, I felt like "that's why they have the pastor back up plan" just like, with the teenage boy they had the honey trap agent working him.  That didn't work out well, teenage emotions being what they are, so they went another way.

 

However, the showrunners deny it, and really, the whole God talk is so counter KGB ideology it makes sense that there is no way that would be a recruitment ploy.

 

I'm putting myself in the Pastor's shoes for a moment, we grew up around the same time, I was slightly leftist leaning, and couldn't stand Reagan.  However leftist I was though?  Hearing about embedded KGB spies would flip that switch, there isn't any conceivable way I would not call the police or FBI, especially if I lived in a DC suburb.  I would.  He's not a catholic priest with a vow of the confessional after all, he's just a lay minister, and seems pretty loosey-goosey at that.  One outweighs the other though, I might disagree with my government's actions and policies, and believe me, I did.  I still wouldn't knowingly allow the USA to be spied on, it just would never happen.

 

We now have 5 good possibilities posed.  Because of the awkwardness with him telling her to bring him more information though?  I think he did contact someone.  If it were the FBI, we'd probably know it, since we see the FBI office at this show, and Stan lives NEXT DOOR, so he'd be the logical one to check it out.  So, my best guess is the local cops, who probably think he's a nut, or the teenager is mistaken/crazy/playing a joke, so told him to "get more information."  The second best choice to me is that he doesn't WANT to look like a nutcase, so he's getting more information before he risks telling the authorities about what may be a fantasy.

 

Tell or not tell though?  Leftist or not?  My bet is that he'll tell, or already has.  Your country is even more your country when you are face to face with a direct threat to it.

 

Oh, and I think the reason we haven't seen the son on the show yet is, yes, he shot up, so we got the whole cologne conversation to prepare us for his growth spurt.  Ha. 

Edited March 18, 2016 by Umbelina

[shura]

Oh, and I think the reason we haven't seen the son on the show yet is, yes, he shot up, so we got the whole cologne conversation to prepare us for his growth spurt.  Ha.

 

Or Stan found his "Mrs. Beeman" picture and there is no Henry anymore.

[sistermagpie]

Part of Philip seemed to really think of what it would be like to be married to Martha for real, bring his kids there, keep them safe from the KGB, where pretty much all Elizabeth could see is "Yay!  Now I can bond with my daughter, FINALLY, we'll work together for the cause!"  This was also right after folding a girl up into a suitcase that wasn't much older than Paige.

 

 

JMO, but I think Philip would consider being married to Martha a complete nightmare. At best he'd be doing penance by fully becoming the fantasy this woman wanted so he can give her what she wants (even if some of those things he would love to, like having kids). At worst he'd be constantly staring at somebody whose life he ruined. I don't think he particularly clicks with her in many ways either. That is, I think his interest in her is mostly professional and that he just wouldn't enjoy hanging out with her the way he does with Elizabeth. I honestly can't think of a scene where Philip seemed to just enjoy being with Martha the way he does Elizabeth.

 

I do think Philip had a very primal reaction to Martha's talk about foster children and that he does see her in many ways as the person he'd like to be fighting for here. But I also think that he sees Elizabeth as loving Paige as fiercely as he does and isn't just putting her second to the cause by wanting to recruit her. Plus, it's not like he thinks this is a bad cause. He devoted his life to it too. As much as he hates the idea of her having this life, he gets thinking the cause is right.

 

Hearing about embedded KGB spies would flip that switch, there isn't any conceivable way I would not call the police or FBI, especially if I lived in a DC suburb.  I would.

 

 

But I also think Pastor Tim has other things in his life that would put him in a different place when he made that call. At the very least, we know he's coming at this as a youth pastor whose primary focus is Paige who came to him for help. That alone is going to make him reluctant to just pull the plug on her whole life and proceed cautiously.

 

But besides that, like I said, I think the show has always known he was going to be the person Paige told and they've loaded him up with lots of psychological reasons for not telling that most people don't tell, and most of those reasons have to do with his personal psychology and agenda as a Christian Pastor Shepherd and would-be hero. 

 

The second best choice to me is that he doesn't WANT to look like a nutcase, so he's getting more information before he risks telling the authorities about what may be a fantasy.

 

 

But what more information would he be getting that would make him look less crazy? Unless Paige literally came in with a bug or something there's probably nothing she could say that couldn't be a lie as much as her previous stories about them telling her they're Russian, them speaking Russian to her once, her and mother recently returning from an impromptu trip to Germany to meet her grandmother. If she asks them what they do all she can do is relay more second-hand spy stuff to him--they gather information, they meet with people.

 

I mean, as was pointed out above, the guy works in a suburb of D.C. He's probably got government employees in his church. Hell, he probably knows that Paige lives literally across the street from a counter intelligence guy. If he thinks these people are the real deal even if he did choose to go to the local police instead of the FBI, why would he feel like he had to prove things to him if they didn't believe him rather than just go to someone else? Why would he even think he could prove something to them by bringing them more stories from the 15-year-old they didn't believe before? And really, why would he even worry too much about looking like a fool? All he's doing is passing on a tip that somebody told him. He's not responsible if it doesn't turn out to be true. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I am just waiting for William to do something shady. I can't trust the guy who played creepy Colin Sweeney!

[Umbelina]

All the pastor really needs is Paige's passport.  That little loose end is going to come back to bite them.  That cover isn't deep at all, it's not even a real cover, since Philip did it behind the KGB's back, and without their resources.

 

I see real affection from Philip to Martha, and visa versa.  I also remember how horrified he is/was at Elizabeth being so willing to sacrifice Paige for the cause.  I think that's when Philip started having more feelings for Martha, real feelings, and wondering about his own life and choices.  Well, he was wondering about that before, but until Martha started talking about taking in less fortunate kids and caring for them, he, IMO of course, began to look at Martha differently.  Martha was living the cause he used to believe in when she talked about that.  Meanwhile, Elizabeth was more and more, just a fanatic. 

 

Elizabeth being so happy at Paige being a KGB agent broke something in Philip, all of his doubts about what he's really doing with his life came up again right then.  He's a man who has to continually convince himself that what he is doing is good.  Elizabeth never shows any doubts. 

 

I do think the suitcase event happening so close to Elizabeth's "Yay!  Paige is going to join us for the CAUSE!" horrified Philip, and then there was Martha, who wanted children, and to give them a safe and happy and secure place to grow up.  They shared that wish, not to adopt, but because Philip already has children, unknown to Martha of course, and right about then?  Wished they had someone who felt like Martha rather than like Elizabeth, about their futures.

[lucindabelle]

I don't know if he is, necessarily, but all right. What would you pick, your parents or your country and your way of life? That scene where Paige is waiting out the Pledge of Allegiance - what does it mean? Is she ready to turn on her country because she doesn't want to lose her parents?

I'm Jewish so I'd pick my family every time, with the possible-- only possible-- different choice if we lived in Israel. Too many countries and governments have betrayed my people for it to be logical to do anything else. What is a way of life? So many people have had to immigrate for various reasons. You only get one set of parents.

[sistermagpie]

All the pastor really needs is Paige's passport.  That little loose end is going to come back to bite them.  That cover isn't deep at all, it's not even a real cover, since Philip did it behind the KGB's back, and without their resources.

 

 

What would her passport do? Isn't it just Paige Jennings' actual valid passport going to Germany?

 

I see real affection from Philip to Martha, and visa versa.

 

 

Me too--but I don't think it's affection that makes him want to be married to her.

 

They shared that wish, not to adopt, but because Philip already has children, unknown to Martha of course, and right about then?  Wished they had someone who felt like Martha rather than like Elizabeth, about their futures.

 

 

I do think he was horrified at Elizabeth wanting Paige to be like them, but not in a way that made him doubt her love for him, imo. When it comes to loving his own kids I think he knows Elizabeth loves them in ways Martha never would. I think when he wished he had someone more like Martha in that moment he was just wishing Elizabeth was more like Martha in that way, not that he was with Martha instead. This is the way their whole marriage works, it seems to me, with the two of them working around the ways they're fundamentally opposed to each other. 

 

I'm Jewish so I'd pick my family every time, with the possible-- only possible-- different choice if we lived in Israel.

 

 

 

I think part of what we get from Philip's flashback and his perspective throughout is that he's the same way. I could be corrected in future flashbacks, but I feel like he sees the world as full of things that exploit others and only really expects trust from individuals he knows. Remember back in S1 when he was shocked--shocked!--that Elizabeth had talked shit about him to the KGB. On one hand it was almost funny because you'd think he'd know Elizabeth was like that. But otoh I think it said something about how he looked at the world. I wonder if when he joined the KGB that was the closest he had to family but naturally the real thing was more important. She, otoh, had a mother who basically told her that the Cause came before family every time.

Edited March 18, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

What would her passport do? Isn't it just Paige Jennings' actual valid passport going to Germany?

 

Who goes to Germany for a day, two at most?  Who accompanied her?  She was a minor after all, AND she crossed into East Germany as well. 

 

So any real inspection of her little trip would raise eyebrows, certainly among the FBI and CIA, who, by the way, probably had more agents in both sides of Germany than in any other country on earth. There are cameras and spies everywhere, not as sophisticated as the stuff we have today of course, but probably the most watched border in the world at that time.  Not to mention getting through customs both ways...

 

I just think that Philip's sloppiness, and Elizabeth's over-confidence there is going to bite them in the ass.  I could, of course, be wrong.  (sing song voice here, ha: but I don't think so....)

 

There is a reason their handler is so pissed at them, and brought it up again.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Umbelina

[margol29]

 

But the FBI knows the details of Gene's death and Clark already confessed it to her. They wouldn't need him on tape doing anything. He's a spy, not a guy they're trying to gather evidence on to put on trial.

 

Martha could have had an off screen talk with Gaad about her suspicions that her new and secret husband is a spy. He wants her to wear a wire to get him to confess things so they can build a case against him. Maybe even take down some higher ups in the organization. Also she could relay information to Gaad, like copying the report for stake out on virus man.

[Dev F]

I do think the suitcase event happening so close to Elizabeth's "Yay!  Paige is going to join us for the CAUSE!" horrified Philip, and then there was Martha, who wanted children, and to give them a safe and happy and secure place to grow up.  They shared that wish, not to adopt, but because Philip already has children, unknown to Martha of course, and right about then?  Wished they had someone who felt like Martha rather than like Elizabeth, about their futures.

 

I actually read the two wives' reactions as parallel rather than disjunct. That is, hearing Martha talk about how she wanted kids to share what she and Clark had made Philip realize that Elizabeth wanted to bring Paige into the KGB for exactly the same reason. Thus, there's a subtle change in Philip's perspective subsequently; he goes from mostly blaming Elizabeth for going along with an idea he clearly thinks is crazy, to primarily blaming Gabriel and the Center for using Elizabeth's foolish but heartfelt desires to get their own way.

 

I think part of what we get from Philip's flashback and his perspective throughout is that he's the same way. I could be corrected in future flashbacks, but I feel like he sees the world as full of things that exploit others and only really expects trust from individuals he knows. Remember back in S1 when he was shocked--shocked!--that Elizabeth had talked shit about him to the KGB. On one hand it was almost funny because you'd think he'd know Elizabeth was like that. But otoh I think it said something about how he looked at the world. I wonder if when he joined the KGB that was the closest he had to family but naturally the real thing was more important. She, otoh, had a mother who basically told her that the Cause came before family every time.

 

Interestingly, I think this is another point I'm tempted to read in exactly the opposite way. To me, one of the main things the flashback suggests about Philip is that he hasn't come to terms with the idea that the world is a cruel and unfair place. Elizabeth's past is all about having to bear up under constant hardship: "When I was fourteen, my mother had diphtheria. I took care of her for ten months. No one helped me." And Philip's response to hearing that is to start to tell the story we finally saw the end of in this episode -- that when he was young he found himself in an unfair situation, so he beat it to death with a brick.

 

As he tells Elizabeth, "I just decided, 'That's it. No more.'" I actually think, perversely enough, that those are the actions of an optimist rather than a cynic, someone who can't stand for the world to be unjust, even in the worst of times, and might erupt with righteous fury when someone betrays his sense of how things ought to be.

[Chaos Theory]

This show is so much about duality. We see it from Elizabeth and Philip so often but we are startled when we see it from others. Can someone be two things at once even if they directly contradict each other? Paige wants to be a good Anerican/Christian but she also wants to be a good daughter right now being both are in direct contradiction to each other. Martha is so many things at so many times you ask ten different people on this board alone you will get a different answer from all ten. I find that fascinating because I think that is exactly why Philip picked her in the first place. Without meaning to or intending to she understands the duality in what she is doing and that right now she is in direct contradiction to who she intended to be and the marriage she intended to have and yet it is that duality that is making her a very apt spy for her "husband".

Edited March 18, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[Umbelina]

I agree with your first excellent point Chaos Theory, but not the second.

 

Martha was chosen because she was an unhappy spinster with incredible access to information, so her personality of being lonely and probably longing for romance and sex dictated the "honey trap" method.  Had she been someone deeply in debt, they might have tried bribery.  Had she been someone with a secret, shameful life?  Blackmail.  If she was ideologically opposed to the FBI?  Play on that.

 

I really don't think her personality entered into their decision to use her, other than which vulnerability she showed.  She was, and is, still an incredibly well located spy. 

 

Philip's feelings came later, as he got to know her.  His grooming of her, at first by rote, just an act to get what he needed, has morphed into more because of who she is as a person though.

 

ETA Went to read recaps, and yes, the mother crossed the East/West Berlin boarder, not Paige.  I still think that whole trip would supply concrete evidence if the Pastor talks to officials, and the very least, questions.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Umbelina

[JennyMominFL]

Who goes to Germany for a day, two at most?  Who accompanied her?  She was a minor after all, AND she crossed into East Germany as well. 

 

So any real inspection of her little trip would raise eyebrows, certainly among the FBI and CIA, who, by the way, probably had more agents in both sides of Germany than in any other country on earth. There are cameras and spies everywhere, not as sophisticated as the stuff we have today of course, but probably the most watched border in the world at that time.  Not to mention getting through customs both ways...

 

I just think that Philip's sloppiness, and Elizabeth's over-confidence there is going to bite them in the ass.  I could, of course, be wrong.  (sing song voice here, ha: but I don't think so....)

 

There is a reason their handler is so pissed at them, and brought it up again.

Did she cross into Eastern Berlin? I  thought they brought her mother out to her hotel in Kreuzberg, in West Berlin.

 

BTW. are fans of this show also watching Deutschland 83?

Edited March 18, 2016 by JennyMominFL

[AllyB]

Who goes to Germany for a day, two at most?  Who accompanied her?  She was a minor after all, AND she crossed into East Germany as well. 

She never crossed into East Germany, they spent the whole trip in West Berlin. They were there for roughly one week and Philip and Elizabeth created the paperwork to show that the trip was booked by a client who cancelled. She's the child of a travel agent visiting a popular tourist spot in an allied country. That's about as suspicious as Philip's squash playing.

BTW. are fans of this show also watch Deutschland 83?

Yeah I couldn't help but watch the scenes in Kreuzburg in D'83 and wonder how close they were to where Paige and Elizabeth had been just months before. And I watched The Americans last night thinking about how Martin would just about be being overwhelmed by western supermarkets at the same time that P&E were lamenting Henry's cologne.

Edited March 18, 2016 by AllyB

[Umbelina]

Did she cross into Eastern Berlin. I thought they brought her mother out to her hotel in Kreuzberg, in West Berlin.

 

BTW. are fans of this show also watch Deutschland 83?

I think they smuggled the mother (if it really even WAS Elizabeth's mother that is) from East to West Germany, still a stretch and incredible risk.  I remember people familiar with that area talking about it here last season, they met very very near the border.  So, yeah, watched without doubt.

 

Still, as I said, lots of questions with that passport as a start.  It was messy, messy, messy.  The very short trip, Paige not telling people about her great "vacation" with mom and all the museums or whatever she saw?  WHY would they go? 

 

It's a long loose end to me, and concrete evidence to raise official eyebrows if they were clued into Paige's claims.

 

Yeah, sorry!  It was the mother that crossed the East/West border, not Paige.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

Who goes to Germany for a day, two at most?  Who accompanied her?  She was a minor after all, AND she crossed into East Germany as well.

 

 

I think her Mom accompanied her as herself and they only went to West Germany. The mother was brought over from the east.

 

But you're totally right that it was still a risk and could have gotten them in trouble. They were doing something shady so that could have been seen. I just don't think any of it shows up on a passport. A week is a pretty normal time to spend in Germany and they've got the excuse of just using a trip that was booked by somebody else. Even a couple of days would be fine in that context. 

 

Martha could have had an off screen talk with Gaad about her suspicions that her new and secret husband is a spy. He wants her to wear a wire to get him to confess things so they can build a case against him.

 

 

I don't think they would need to build a case against him--especially not by having Martha wear a wire and get him to confess he made Gene go quick. They already know there's a mole. Martha would have told them who the mole is. Now they just need to put professionals on him.

 

The FBI is salivating at the idea of getting near an Illegal. When they thought they might have one in the car chase scene the entire FBI practically came out to watch just to be there when she got grabbed. 

 

As he tells Elizabeth, "I just decided, 'That's it. No more.'" I actually think, perversely enough, that those are the actions of an optimist rather than a cynic, someone who can't stand for the world to be unjust, even in the worst of times, and might erupt with righteous fury when someone betrays his sense of how things ought to be.

 

 

I actually agree with that--I don't think he's cynical. I think he sees himself as trying to be a protector to all the good people in the world against the bad people who make them suffer. If he was cynical I don't think he'd have lasted this long or have the relationship he has with Elizabeth. They both, imo, have a real innocence about them despite their hard lives, so they can both have their trust betrayed. Elizabeth just gets more angry in situations like in Trust Me with the Centre while Philip is upset in the same ep with Elizabeth betraying his trust. They even say this outright to each other when they both say they were betrayed by the thing they'd put all their trust in.

 

So I think he does see the world as full of terrible people and he fears he might be one of them, but he's never lost sight of the good people in the world he's trying to protect imo. Paige, Henry, Martha--I think most of the people in his life go in that group. Even Stan, I imagine.

 

BTW. are fans of this show also watch Deutschland 83?

 

 

I do!

[maczero]

Why is Paige in a class with all Down syndrome children?

That's horrible.  Still I have to admit there were some fugly looking kids in that class and I actually appreciated that.  I'm tired of shows trying to pass off twenty-something models as typical American teenagers.

[Umbelina]

I think her Mom accompanied her as herself and they only went to West Germany. The mother was brought over from the east.

 

But you're totally right that it was still a risk and could have gotten them in trouble. They were doing something shady so that could have been seen. I just don't think any of it shows up on a passport. A week is a pretty normal time to spend in Germany and they've got the excuse of just using a trip that was booked by somebody else. Even a couple of days would be fine in that context. 

 

Were they even gone a week though?  If so, the show didn't mention it, it seemed like a very quick trip.

 

Yes, my point was Elizabeth was the one to go with her, on her own passport!  With a completely faked ID!  So far, no one has looked into the fact that she probably died 20 years ago, but anyone looking into it would find out.  (Assuming the KGB used a faked identity of a real person, dead, which was common.)  I'm just saying that the trip, combined with the pastor telling someone in law enforcement, would justify further investigation.

I don't think they would need to build a case against him--especially not by having Martha wear a wire and get him to confess he made Gene go quick. They already know there's a mole. Martha would have told them who the mole is. Now they just need to put professionals on him.

    The FBI is salivating at the idea of getting near an Illegal. When they thought they might have one in the car chase scene the entire FBI practically came out to watch just to be there when she got grabbed.

 

   Yes, but to have Martha wear a wire, they need a reason to think Paige isn't just some fanciful teenager making up stories for attention or because she hates her parents, or has a mental issue.  The passport, for me, supplies that.

 

I actually agree with that--I don't think he's cynical. I think he sees himself as trying to be a protector to all the good people in the world against the bad people who make them suffer. If he was cynical I don't think he'd have lasted this long or have the relationship he has with Elizabeth. They both, imo, have a real innocence about them despite their hard lives, so they can both have their trust betrayed. Elizabeth just gets more angry in situations like in Trust Me with the Centre while Philip is upset in the same ep with Elizabeth betraying his trust. They even say this outright to each other when they both say they were betrayed by the thing they'd put all their trust in.

    So I think he does see the world as full of terrible people and he fears he might be one of them, but he's never lost sight of the good people in the world he's trying to protect imo. Paige, Henry, Martha--I think most of the people in his life go in that group. Even Stan, I imagine.

 

 

I don't see Elizabeth quite so much as naive or trusting, I see her as a completely brainwashed, dyed in the wool, commie, who hates the evil USA.  Philip though, seems to like the USA, or at least parts of it, and he has very real doubts at times about what they are doing.

 

That's what makes this show so rich, the interplays between a husband and wife, and the interplays between a spy team. 

 

I haven't seen Deutschland 83, but now I want to!  I have a bookshelf full of spy novels about Germany though, (currently mostly non-fiction, but I love the fiction novels too, especially when penned by former agents) and before buying a ton after this show started, I devoured my library copies for decades.  Hopefully I can find episodes on line somewhere. 

 

ETA they aren't ALL about Germany, but since it was a real hotbed, especially Berlin, sooner or later it's usually touched on.  Many are about Russia, England, France, and of course the KGB, and our various spying groups, how they evolved, grew.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Umbelina

[Knuckles]

That border thing is odd...that the "mother" crossed the border from east to west is already interesting. Russians or East Germans did not pass easily and not without official approval. Those who did not have approval did not cross...and those who tried to circumvent the wall were shot. Simple as that.

 

As an American, you could cross Checkpoint Charlie, with a passport, and having listed every coin in your jeans pockets...down to the last pfenning. You were charged an odd amount for a day visa...no longer can remember, but around $50, in hard currency, and had 6 or 8 hours to walk around. I remember that coffee could not be found, (just ersatz watery stuff), there was literally nothing in any shop to buy, and the highlight was walking over to the Soviet Embassy to watch the changing of the guard. It was bleak, very grey.  When you crossed back to the west, the world went back to full color. And the east German guards were not a friendly bunch.

[RedHawk]

Or Stan found his "Mrs. Beeman" picture and there is no Henry anymore.

You know, our last sighting of Henry was with Stan, playing the football board game. Maybe Henry slipped up and asked, "How's Mrs. Beeman?" one time too many. It's been only a couple of days since then, right? Stan then could have sneaked into the Jennings' house, sprayed Henry's cologne all over the upstairs area, and no one would would realize he was missing...

[JennyMominFL]

I think they smuggled the mother (if it really even WAS Elizabeth's mother that is) from East to West Germany, still a stretch and incredible risk.  I remember people familiar with that area talking about it here last season, they met very very near the border.  So, yeah, watched without doubt.

 

 

Smuggling yes, but not as unique as you would think. It wasn't all that uncommon, especially for family or business. You had to go through a ton of stuff, but it happened.

ETA, I forgot Elizabeth's Mom was Russian and not just coming from East Berlin. Duh

 

 I was in the Marines in the late 80's  and would hear talk from other military people, about how easy it was, for American soldiers to go into East Berlin. The U-Bahn actually would go through parts of East Berlin, in going from some parts West, to other Parts west, with the East German stations closed down.  They were ghost stations. That's because West Berlin  wasn't really west and east Berlin wasn't really east. The wall was coiled like a snake, going back and forth east to west with little or no sense to how or why it was built

  I was in Kreuzberg 2 years ago. It was not very nice when the wall was there.  It's lovely now.

 

 83 was an interesting year for the Cold War. We have Korean airlines being shot down, Able Archer,  and Samantha Smith.  Plus we know  now that there was a very close call in September, when the Soviet Warning System accidentally picked up, what they thought were incoming missiles. NO, the general public didn't hear about this, but KGB agents might have. I'll be interested to see if the show touches on any of this.

Anyone interested in the  state of the cold war should watch the British Movie ,Threads. It's not on yo tube, but it's online via the search engine. amazing movie. I'm doing a paper on it right now

Edited March 18, 2016 by JennyMominFL

[CrashTextDummie]

Is no one else excited that Dylan Baker is on the show? He's such a fascinating actor and I'm really looking forward to what he does with this role of senior deep cover agent. Already you get the sense that's he's a lot more hardcore than what we've seen so far. An inspired casting choice in my opinion.

 

Really hoping they manage to tie Nina back in with the main storyline, cause her stuff just isn't very compelling (even though she herself is as a character). I don't want to wish they'd killed her off, but my patience is wearing thin.

 

Noah Emmerich does that thing where he squints his eyes, and you think it means he noticed or deduced something, but sometimes it doesn't. I like it as an acting choice, keeps me on my toes about Stan.

 

The talk about Henry felt like the show is trying to soften the blow of discovering the actor is a fully grown man now.

 

Welcome back, Americans!

[RedHawk]

I agree that we're all going to gasp when we see how much Henry grew "overnight".

[Dev F]

I don't see Elizabeth quite so much as naive or trusting, I see her as a completely brainwashed, dyed in the wool, commie, who hates the evil USA.  Philip though, seems to like the USA, or at least parts of it, and he has very real doubts at times about what they are doing.

 

It's perhaps partly indoctrination and partly just that Elizabeth has a more conventionally Russian attitude: Of course life is hard, but it's always been hard, and I've always been strong enough to deal with it. That seems like a fairly common theme in the Russian literature I've read and among the Russian people I've met. It's probably why she's not as good at fitting in among the Americans as Philip is, since Phil somehow, without even trying, developed a more traditionally Western worldview: Life should be easy and safe and carefree, and if you try to make it hard I'll kill you!