Legends of Crush Objects, Partners, Teammates, (and Everything Else): The Relationship Thread

[scarynikki12]

The Legends never refer to themselves as heroes while simultaneously acting like the Big Bad.  They don't refer to themselves as heroes at all so they'll always be better than Barry. 

[Starry]

On 9/4/2018 at 2:45 AM, BaggythePanther said:

I’m so glad someone else sees this. I was starting to worry that I was alone in this ship.

Not alone. I like them as well. It’s strange because I usually don’t like it when geek characters are paired together as most shows portray those couples as too corny for my taste. But Zari is not as dorky as Ray, she has a sarcasm that makes their scenes more balanced and enjoyable.

Brandon and his wife’s adorableness translates well to the screen but I’m not here for Ray and Nora for the sole reason that he first bonded with her when she was a kid and he an adult.

I think I can get on board with almost anything because I liked the little we saw of Zari and Jonah. I was not the biggest fan of Nate and Amaya but the last two episodes have been good for them. They work pretty well when they tone down his obnoxious frat boy attitude. The scenes with old Amaya were adorable.

I am okay with Avalance as well. Despite the rushed relationship Ava is so smitten and appreciative of Sara. It’s cute, lol.

[wingster55]

7 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I love the Legends but I think they've screwed up just as much as Barry has.

Let's be real...they've screwed up more. Like way more. 

The Legends are the best team easily...not sure if Sara is the best leader though. 

 

I can't stand "AvaLance". 

Edited April 11, 2018 by wingster55

[shantown]

If I want to discuss the various teams in the Arrowverse and how they rank against each other - is there a thread to do that? (I feel I'm gonna get too off topic replying here). Cause I think that could be a really fun and interesting discussion!
I know it's probably difficult to do a thread in one forum that all for shows link to, but is that a thing? Mods?

[Starfish35]

The Mind Your Surroundings thread in the Arrow forum has traditionally been the place for that kind of discussion, I think.  It's for discussion of all comics-related shows/movies.

[BaggythePanther]

Someone on the AV Club forum was complaining that the writers couldn’t let Zari get through one season without giving her a love interest. Meanwhile I’m over here grumbling because the writers are blowing holes in my Zari/Ray ship. Unfortunately (fortunately?) I can see the chemistry in Ray/Nora and Zari/Jonah. I’m just grumpy it’s not what I was rooting for.

[Starry]

Doesn't every character get a love interest in the span of a season though?

Someone in the episode thread mentioned the possibility of a Constantine/Gary pairing and I'm so here for it!

[Proteus]

7 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

Someone on the AV Club forum was complaining that the writers couldn’t let Zari get through one season without giving her a love interest. Meanwhile I’m over here grumbling because the writers are blowing holes in my Zari/Ray ship. Unfortunately (fortunately?) I can see the chemistry in Ray/Nora and Zari/Jonah. I’m just grumpy it’s not what I was rooting for.

I understand how you feel. I really like Ray/Nora and Jonah/Zari but I get being disappointed that the show didn't go with Ray/Zari.

I'm so excited about Ava/Sara though. I just love Caity & Jes together and am glad I have a ship to root for on this show now.

[legaleagle53]

8 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

Someone on the AV Club forum was complaining that the writers couldn’t let Zari get through one season without giving her a love interest. Meanwhile I’m over here grumbling because the writers are blowing holes in my Zari/Ray ship. Unfortunately (fortunately?) I can see the chemistry in Ray/Nora and Zari/Jonah. I’m just grumpy it’s not what I was rooting for.

I wouldn't exactly call Jonah Hex a "love interest."  Sure, sparks flew when they met, but it's not as though they're going to be dating on a regular basis.  Zari simply won't have time to go traipsing off to 19th-Century Salvation any time she feels like it.  And if Jonah's story holds true to the comics, he himself becomes an anachronism when he's stranded in the mid-21st Century for quite a while and has to adjust to life there before he finally gets back to his own time.

Edited April 12, 2018 by legaleagle53

[wingster55]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

 

Doesn't every character get a love interest in the span of a season though?

 

Jax. Mick. They didn't. 

[Starry]

Jax had a crush on Kendra that went nowhere. Mick's OTL is obviously Leonard, lol.

All jokes aside, Mick not having a love interest is the exception, not the rule. With "love interest" I mean someone character X is attracted to or has romantic tension with even if nothing comes out of it.

[Lady Calypso]

6 hours ago, Starry said:

Doesn't every character get a love interest in the span of a season though?

Not necessarily. Besides Mick, Jax didn't have a love interest in the second season (and I wouldn't count his two episode crush on Kendra, personally so Jax ended up single throughout his run). Gideon didn't have a love interest in the first or third season either (and yeah, I totally count Gideon as a character)! Sara was mostly single in the first season until Snart's death episode, so I wouldn't even say that Sara had a love interest in the first season. Hell, even the second season, she was sleeping around with women but she didn't really have a love interest (I think except for that one episode set in the 50s with the nurse). 

But even with these romantic pairings, or romantic moments, they haven't overtaken the show much. I mean, Kendra/Ray did in the second half of season 1, and Nate/Amaya have been on and off as a major thing for two seasons, and Sara/Ava have gotten their big romantic moments, but other than that, it's nice that their romantic relationships don't dominate the show like so many others. These characters are individual characters first, and THEN romantic partners second. 

1 hour ago, Starry said:

All jokes aside, Mick not having a love interest is the exception, not the rule. With "love interest" I mean someone character X is attracted to or has romantic tension with even if nothing comes out of it.

I think having a love interest, for me, is different than being attracted to someone. How I see it is having a love interest means that something will transpire out of it. While an attraction is something that sure, a character may feel about a person, but it doesn't mean it'll lead anywhere. Jonah/Zari are hinted at forming a future relationship with each other because of their mutual attraction and the fact that the writing made it blatantly clear that there was something there that will probably be explored next season when they bring Jonah back. While Jax's attraction toward Kendra, for example, was something that was briefly touched upon but nothing ever transpired because they headed for a Ray/Kendra pairing soon after. Jax never actually had romantic moments with Kendra, or any romantic tension. Also, like Helen of Troy being the object in men's affections, but I wouldn't call her anyone's love interest, as it was all superficial. Also, Sara's multiple sex partners in season 2 didn't really lead to anything deeper or meaningful; for her, many of those episodes were just her sleeping with women and men because she was attracted to them. 

[Miss Dee]

Y'all think *you* have problems. Try being a Ray/Mick shipper. ?

In all seriousness: surely someone, somewhere, thinks Purcell is good for more romance than an infestation of STDs. Right?

[Princess Lucky]

1 hour ago, Miss Dee said:

Y'all think *you* have problems. Try being a Ray/Mick shipper. ?

In all seriousness: surely someone, somewhere, thinks Purcell is good for more romance than an infestation of STDs. Right?

Me. That's why I can't wait for the next (potential?) season of Prison Break, so I can enjoy watching him with yet another one-and-done love interest :)

I do agree Mick should get a little something on LoT too, but I wonder, is there a chance TPTB think he's too old? Like Harry on The Flash? (although HR did have a love interest). We've had a lot of different types of characters, but we haven't really had an older woman on this show. And by "older" I mean, like, mid-thirties. Am I wrong to say that Tala Ashe is the oldest main female character to join the show, at the tender age of 32/33?  Or, wait, Jes McCallan is 35! An old lady by CW standards. Anyway, I think there's a chance Mick is considered too old to get the CW ship treatment. To which I say, nope. He should totally get some action.

Speaking of ages, though, and relatively random (yet totally valid) ships, I was thinking about Nate/Wally. My first thought was that Wally is too young for Nate, but Keiynan is older than Maisie, so I'm just gonna ship away to my heart's content #kisstheboy

(I gotta say, Ray and Nora are really messing with a lot of ships, I've always been partial to both Ray/Mick and Ray/Nate)

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Princess Lucky said:

Me. That's why I can't wait for the next (potential?) season of Prison Break, so I can enjoy watching him with yet another one-and-done love interest :)

I do agree Mick should get a little something on LoT too, but I wonder, is there a chance TPTB think he's too old? Like Harry on The Flash? (although HR did have a love interest). We've had a lot of different types of characters, but we haven't really had an older woman on this show. And by "older" I mean, like, mid-thirties. Am I wrong to say that Tala Ashe is the oldest main female character to join the show, at the tender age of 32/33?  Or, wait, Jes McCallan is 35! An old lady by CW standards. Anyway, I think there's a chance Mick is considered too old to get the CW ship treatment. To which I say, nope. He should totally get some action.

Speaking of ages, though, and relatively random (yet totally valid) ships, I was thinking about Nate/Wally. My first thought was that Wally is too young for Nate, but Keiynan is older than Maisie, so I'm just gonna ship away to my heart's content #kisstheboy

(I gotta say, Ray and Nora are really messing with a lot of ships, I've always been partial to both Ray/Mick and Ray/Nate)

Matt Ryan  (John Constantine) turned 37 April 11, 2018.  So, he was 36 when his and Caity's characters fucked in the mental institution laundry room.  Dominic Purcell turned 48 in February, but could easily pass for ten years younger just in his bearing.  Besides, the "rules" are different when it comes to men and women in romances in TV and Movies.  I recall Sean Connery (then 68-69) as the romantic lead with Catherine Zeta-Jones (then 28-29) in 1999s Entrapment.  Given that Gideon noted that Mick was acquiring various STDs in Aruba, I see no barrier to Mick getting some love next season.

[tennisgurl]

I struggle because I always end up shipping people who dont get together on this show. I shipped/ship Sara/Rip, Mick/Ray, Ray/Zari, Amaya/Zari, and I am even kind of into Gary/Constantine, at least until John breaks his poor little heart. None of them happened, or now probably wont happen. Now I am kind of liking Nora/Ray, but I dont want to jinx it. I also was into Snart/Sara, and while they did get together for a minute, we all saw where THAT ended up. I am ship cursed!

[Proteus]

4 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

Me. That's why I can't wait for the next (potential?) season of Prison Break, so I can enjoy watching him with yet another one-and-done love interest :)

I do agree Mick should get a little something on LoT too, but I wonder, is there a chance TPTB think he's too old? Like Harry on The Flash? (although HR did have a love interest). We've had a lot of different types of characters, but we haven't really had an older woman on this show. And by "older" I mean, like, mid-thirties. Am I wrong to say that Tala Ashe is the oldest main female character to join the show, at the tender age of 32/33?  Or, wait, Jes McCallan is 35! An old lady by CW standards. Anyway, I think there's a chance Mick is considered too old to get the CW ship treatment. To which I say, nope. He should totally get some action.

Speaking of ages, though, and relatively random (yet totally valid) ships, I was thinking about Nate/Wally. My first thought was that Wally is too young for Nate, but Keiynan is older than Maisie, so I'm just gonna ship away to my heart's content #kisstheboy

(I gotta say, Ray and Nora are really messing with a lot of ships, I've always been partial to both Ray/Mick and Ray/Nate)

I think the bigger problem with all of those ships is that Wally, Nate, Mick, and Ray are all straight. Legends does a good job with LGBT characters since we currently have Sara, Ava, Constantine, & Gary all onscreen. I doubt any of the others guys will be written as bi or gay.

[legaleagle53]

9 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, like Helen of Troy being the object in men's affections, but I wouldn't call her anyone's love interest, as it was all superficial. 

And I don't think Helen would even want to be anyone's love interest, since she's repeatedly seen what happens when men start falling for her -- they start wars over her.  Helen actually hates having that effect on men, which is why she refused to go back to Troy and instead jumped at the chance to live on Themiscyra where her power wouldn't affect anyone.

[Princess Lucky]

5 hours ago, Proteus said:

I think the bigger problem with all of those ships is that Wally, Nate, Mick, and Ray are all straight. Legends does a good job with LGBT characters since we currently have Sara, Ava, Constantine, & Gary all onscreen. I doubt any of the others guys will be written as bi or gay.

Wait till you hear I also ship Amaya and Zari, heh!

Seriously though, I appreciate all the non-straight characters the show has given us. I wouldn't say no to more (like, say, Maisie's new character, or Wally being revealed as, say, bi) but I am happy with what we have. I'll just keep shipping my ships in my head. After all, this is a show with so many viable canon and non-canon ships. I eventually came to adore Nate/Amaya (and I'm still holding out hope for them), but does that mean I don't also ship Nate/Ray, Nate/Mick and, now, Nate/Wally? Nope!

[BaggythePanther]

13 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

Wait till you hear I also ship Amaya and Zari, heh!

Seriously though, I appreciate all the non-straight characters the show has given us. I wouldn't say no to more (like, say, Maisie's new character, or Wally being revealed as, say, bi) but I am happy with what we have. 

I went on the LoT tag on Tumblr for the first time about a week ago and I was surprised at the popularity  of the Amaya/Zari ship. I’d never thought about it but now I can’t unsee it.

I think it’d be really interesting to at the very least  have 

Spoiler

Maisie’s new character 

 be gay or bi, but I wouldn’t wan the character to have too much in common with the actress. They already have Brandon and his wife’s characters getting close I wouldn’t want it to become a habit. 

[treasaigh]

I have to say I really wish I liked Ava more.  But I just can't get into her or Avalance.  I don't hate her, I just think she's boring.  Which is fine, if not great, for a real life relationship, but not so great for TV relationships.  

I worry this will end up being Sara's OTP because of the backlash of breaking up a somewhat popular LGBTQ relationship.  

Which is why I really wish I liked her more. (sigh)

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, treasaigh said:

I have to say I really wish I liked Ava more.  But I just can't get into her or Avalance.  I don't hate her, I just think she's boring.  Which is fine, if not great, for a real life relationship, but not so great for TV relationships.  

I worry this will end up being Sara's OTP because of the backlash of breaking up a somewhat popular LGBTQ relationship.  

Which is why I really wish I liked her more. (sigh)

I don't consider Ava to be boring, but she is very much the straight man (in the vaudevillian sense, thank you Baskets) in their relationship.  I think they balance each other quite well.

[Proteus]

9 hours ago, treasaigh said:

I have to say I really wish I liked Ava more.  But I just can't get into her or Avalance.  I don't hate her, I just think she's boring.  Which is fine, if not great, for a real life relationship, but not so great for TV relationships.  

I worry this will end up being Sara's OTP because of the backlash of breaking up a somewhat popular LGBTQ relationship.  

Which is why I really wish I liked her more. (sigh)

I think Ava is Saras OTP. I can't see the show bringing on anyone else for Sara. I don't think Ava is boring. I love the character and Ava with Sara. I can't see Sara with anyone else. I know I would never support a Sara pairing with someone other than Ava now.

[Starfish35]

I don’t think Ava herself is boring, but I do find the pairing exceedingly tedious.  They rushed it far far too fast, and then brought up a lot of issues (Sara’s guilt over her past, Ava’s feelings about being a clone) and didn’t resolve them at all in favor of giving them a cutesy happy ending to the season.  And I still feel like Ava is the exact opposite of the kind of character that Sara would go for.  It’s frustrating for me because Sara is my favorite character and I want to be able to root for whatever pairing she’s in, but Avalance just does absolutely nothing for me.  And as I said in the other thread, I can’t even hope for the show to break them up, because I don’t want the negative publicity that would bring for the show.  I just wish it wasn’t such an entirely boring pairing for me. :(

Edited July 29, 2018 by Starfish35

[Proteus]

4 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

I don’t think Ava herself is boring, but I do find the pairing exceedingly tedious.  They rushed it far far too fast, and then brought up a lot of issues (Sara’s guilt over her past, Ava’s feelings about being a clone) and didn’t resolve them at all in favor of giving them a cutesy happy ending to the season.  And I still feel like Ava is the exact opposite of the kind of character that Sara would go for.  It’s frustrating for me because Sara is my favorite character and I want to be able to root for whatever pairing she’s in, but Avalance just does absolutely nothing for me.  And as I said in the other thread, I can’t even hope for the show to break them up, because I don’t want the negative publicity that would bring for the show.  I just wish it wasn’t such an entirely boring pairing for me. :(

Who do you picture that Sara would go for?

[Starfish35]

As I said before the season started, someone with a bit more of a edge.  Time pirate instead of time cop.  A Catwoman, or River Song type.  I feel like Sara’s trying to grab onto “normal” by dating Ava.  As she said herself, Ava’s the “nice girl” that you bring home to the parents.  (Because she was designed to be perfect.)  I don’t see Sara with someone like that.  I see her with someone who has a wild side, maybe even a dark side.  

Obviously, each to their own, mileage varies, different strokes, and all that.  I just personally find the Avalance relationship to be incredibly boring.   

Ava herself can be interesting, but the time I liked her the most was with Constantine and Gary, not around Sara.  

[Miss Dee]

I guess that depends on how you look at it, though. Something I find interesting: Ray and Mick are almost complete opposites, and you would think that would mean they should end up with opposite types of love interests as a result - yet almost everyone I've seen in fandom wants both of them to end up with a "badass" or "bad girl". Which makes one wonder why a woman who is a "good girl" or at least less traditionally "badass" isn't seen as an acceptable alternative for either character, even though they're so different. To me it plays into the anti-feminist notion that there's only room for a certain kind of female in superhero shows (although I don't think you feel this way, @Starfish35). "Good" or studious or law-and-order types of female characters are not automatically boring unless the writers themselves feel they have no intrinsic worth and therefore don't bother to write them interestingly.

So it doesn't bother me that Sara's interested in a more law-and-order type this time around. Sometimes opposites attract; sometimes birds of a feather flock together. Both can be written realistically. But I like Jess McCallen and feel she adds a lot to the role, so maybe I just enjoy Ava more than most. I also haven't seen the early Arrow seasons so I don't have a Nyssa/Sara relationship in my mind to compare it to.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Miss Dee
Clarity

[Proteus]

26 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

I guess that depends on how you look at it, though. Something I find interesting: Ray and Mick are almost complete opposites, and you would think that would mean they should end up with opposite types of love interests as a result - yet almost everyone I've seen in fandom wants both of them to end up with a "badass" or "bad girl". Which makes one wonder why a woman who is a "good girl" or at least less traditionally "badass" isn't seen as an acceptable alternative for either character, even though they're so different. To me it plays into the anti-feminist notion that there's only room for a certain kind of female in superhero shows (although I don't think you feel this way, @Starfish35). "Good" or studious or law-and-order types of female characters are not automatically boring unless the writers themselves feel they have no intrinsic worth and therefore don't bother to write them interestingly.

So it doesn't bother me that Sara's interested in a more law-and-order type this time around. Sometimes opposites attract; sometimes birds of a feather flock together. Both can be written realistically. But I like Jess McCallen and feel she adds a lot to the role, so maybe I just enjoy Ava more than most. I also haven't seen the early Arrow seasons so I don't have a Nyssa/Sara relationship in my mind to compare it to.

There's no Sara/Nyssa relationship for anything to be compared with. That whole relationship happened off screen and Caity Lotz barely worked with KL.

I usually don't have a certain type I like my fave with. It all depends on the character and chemistry. I wanted Sara with Snart in s1. Now I like her with Ava. So I like her with both types of characters. I wanted Mick/Amaya and now Ray/Nora as well.

3 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

As I said before the season started, someone with a bit more of a edge.  Time pirate instead of time cop.  A Catwoman, or River Song type.  I feel like Sara’s trying to grab onto “normal” by dating Ava.  As she said herself, Ava’s the “nice girl” that you bring home to the parents.  (Because she was designed to be perfect.)  I don’t see Sara with someone like that.  I see her with someone who has a wild side, maybe even a dark side.  

Obviously, each to their own, mileage varies, different strokes, and all that.  I just personally find the Avalance relationship to be incredibly boring.   

Ava herself can be interesting, but the time I liked her the most was with Constantine and Gary, not around Sara.  

Thanks for explaining. I buy that Sara would fall for Ava. But I understand that she's not the type of character you'd wish for Sara. 

[Sakura12]

I wish I liked Avalance more. I don't mind them and I like Ava but I'm just not feeling their relationship right now. For me it's probably the way it was written in the beginning. I didn't see the i hate you but really love you chemistry. That and Ava's turnaround was so abrupt that it made me not have time to even see anything develop. 

Sara's my favorite character so I'm a little more picky with her love interests. I've enjoyed all her previous ones, even when they were one offs. Maybe Avalance will grow on me this season. 

[treasaigh]

There is one way they could break them up.  Jess would have to leave the show, *her* decision, and they NOT kill her off.  Otherwise, I can't see how Avalance doesn't make it to the end of the series.

I think the speed of the relationship is a huge problem.  The chemistry wasn't allowed to build and evolve as Sakura12 mentions.  But I also didn't see the changing of the attitude in Ava for Sara.  The episode with Constantine gave the two of them different viewpoints of Sara.  Ava saw a good person, Constantine saw a damaged person.  (Yes, that is an over simplification, but you get the idea, I hope.)  In that episode, Constantine is right.  In the future?  Maybe Ava is right.  At the end of that episode I just couldn't get over the idea that Ava wasn't really seeing all of Sara, just the good parts.  

Having a partner that sees the best in you is great, but that puts a lot of pressure on Sara to always be perfect.  What happens if she isn't perfect one day?

I'm sure I was supposed to see Ava's positive vision of Sara as a good thing, but for me, I just thought she was someone who had blinders on.  I don't like that as a foundation for a relationship.

Also, Ava?  Best-est woman ever?  That whole clone thing just felt weird.  Not that she was a clone, it's scifi/fantasy, I can totally buy clones.  It's the best-est woman part that feels icky for some reason I just can't quite articulate.

That being said... Sara and River?  I would so ship that!

[Sakura12]

River Song is Sara's mother. That's why I couldn't ship Sara and Rip. He's her grandfather. Lol.

I don't think Sara needs someone like her. But I did want someone that understands that she has darkness in her. Its great that Ava sees the good in Sara, but she can't ignore the damage in her. Constantine for all his faults saw the pain and darkness in Sara and told her she can rise above it. Ava is either ignoring it or doesn't see it. She's surprised when someone calls Sara damaged and surprised that Sara has nightmares. She's only seeing one side of her and maybe that's why can't see them as this amazing couple. Thats fine for a one off relationship, not for Sara's OTP. 

Even Alex Danvers saw Sara's damage. They haven't given Avalance time to grow, they went from hating each other to being in love. Just putting characters together is not enough for me to ship them. I need a journey to follow them on. 

[Miss Dee]

The journey might start after their relationship does. Learning to accept the worst as well as the best about each other would at least give them something to do that's neither "boring happy couple" or breaking up.

[treasaigh]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

River Song is Sara's mother. That's why I couldn't ship Sara and Rip. He's her grandfather. Lol.

I don't think Sara needs someone like her. But I did want someone that understands that she has darkness in her. Its great that Ava sees the good in Sara, but she can't ignore the damage in her. Constantine for all his faults saw the pain and darkness in Sara and told her she can rise above it. Ava is either ignoring it or doesn't see it. She's surprised when someone calls Sara damaged and surprised that Sara has nightmares. She's only seeing one side of her and maybe that's why can't see them as this amazing couple. Thats fine for a one off relationship, not for Sara's OTP. 

Even Alex Danvers saw Sara's damage. They haven't given Avalance time to grow, they went from hating each other to being in love. Just putting characters together is not enough for me to ship them. I need a journey to follow them on. 

Ava isn't *just* surprised.  There's surprise combined with denial.  As I remember it, whenever anyone mentions Sara's darkness Ava denies it's there.  That isn't a basis for a healthy relationship.  That being said, I'm sure we're supposed to be happy that someone sees Sara as a person full of light.  Personally, I prefer the recognition combined with the belief they can rise above.  

 

19 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

The journey might start after their relationship does. Learning to accept the worst as well as the best about each other would at least give them something to do that's neither "boring happy couple" or breaking up.

But the thing is I have no idea why the relationship started.  They gave us nothing on screen to show why Ava's attitude changed or why Sara cared that Ava started liking her.  They needed more time together to see beyond what they've already seen and start to appreciate it.  Not just wake up one day and want to set up house together.

[Proteus]

Ava has never been given the chance to deal with Saras darkness. She does not deny that it isn't there. Ava told Sara they could deal with it together at the end of 3/15 and Sara instead broke up with her & shut her out.

I don't think Ava puts Sara on a pedestal. She knows who she is & all about her past since she said she read her file. I think Ava just doesn't have a problem with it. There's nothing to say that if Sara opened up to Ava about her demons that Ava would have a problem with Saras past.

[MarkHB]

On 7/30/2018 at 1:09 PM, treasaigh said:

But the thing is I have no idea why the relationship started.  They gave us nothing on screen to show why Ava's attitude changed or why Sara cared that Ava started liking her. 

I saw it in the fight that started the whole thing.  My own story: one high school summer day at a campground, I wound up in a pseudo-game of tag with a girl, that ended with me trapping her at the end of a dock.  Adrenaline. competition hormones... later that day, it led to my first kiss.  So I totally got that the fight led to... something else.

[BaggythePanther]

Random but I just completed a series rewatch. This is the first time I’ve rewatched season one episodes since they aired. So it wasn’t until I watched season one’s Jonah Hex episode that I was reminded that Jonah gave Rip his infamous duster. Fast forward to the season three finale and Jonah is giving Zari his hat. 

I don’t think the writers were necessarily making a correlation, but I think it’s funny that when Jonah connects with someone he gives them a piece of his clothing to remember him by.

[johntfs]

13 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

I don’t think the writers were necessarily making a correlation, but I think it’s funny that when Jonah connects with someone he gives them a piece of his clothing to remember him by.

Presumably his truest love is the one who gets his undies.

[MarkHB]

On 8/19/2018 at 6:50 PM, johntfs said:

Presumably his truest love is the one who gets his undies.

I am not at all sure that I would want anyone's undies from before the invention of Tide. :)

[treasaigh]

So I've finished watching, and I have to say I'm still not in love with Avalance.  And for the same reason as before.  I just don't think Ava *gets* Sara.  The episode they caught Charlie, Ava thought they captured her for questioning.  Totally missing Sara hadn't killed her yet because of her heart. That's the best way I can think about it I guess.  Then there is her letting Rory keep the book.  Sara is a lot more lenient, soft, understanding, and willing to look the other way than Ava seems to think she is.  

What will Ava do when/if those rose colored glasses she's looking at Sara through ever break?

[johntfs]

11 hours ago, treasaigh said:

So I've finished watching, and I have to say I'm still not in love with Avalance.  And for the same reason as before.  I just don't think Ava *gets* Sara.  The episode they caught Charlie, Ava thought they captured her for questioning.  Totally missing Sara hadn't killed her yet because of her heart. That's the best way I can think about it I guess.  Then there is her letting Rory keep the book.  Sara is a lot more lenient, soft, understanding, and willing to look the other way than Ava seems to think she is.  

What will Ava do when/if those rose colored glasses she's looking at Sara through ever break?

I don't think that's quite true.  Ava Sharpe is pretty, well, sharp.  It wouldn't surprise me to learn that she deliberately misunderstood why Sara hadn't sent Charlie to Hell to give Sara the time and space to better understand and articulate the reason herself.  Also, Ava fully approved of Charlie becoming a member of the Legends.  She was also quite willing to overrule Sara when it came to Mick keeping the book.  She gets that Sara is the captain, has a team and tends to focus on her team.  Ava has to take the longer view of "No, we're not going to let Mick keep something that can alter reality just because he might be less grumpy with it."

Edited December 15, 2018 by johntfs

[Starfish35]

12 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Ava seems to feel and experience emotions just fine when it involves her issues. She just suddenly can't when it involves Sara's. Their entire relationship revolves around Ava. Whenever it involves Sara's issues its either rushed through or Ava makes it about herself. Then they have Sara make a big romantic gesture and everything is all good. When to me it looks like Sara's issues are just forgotten and pushed under the rug. 

Yep.  I’m just really tired of it.  I don’t dislike Ava outside of Avalance, but I’m really really tired of it being all about Ava.  I’m on record as not being a fan of Nyssara, but at this point I’d be thrilled if Nyssa joined the Waverider crew and Ava left to find herself or something.  Too bad KL is now on another show. 

[Sakura12]

I'd take Nyssa or a new love interest. Ava just doesn't seem right for Sara. Because she doesn't accept Sara for who she is or understand her at all. If she did know Sara she'd know Oliver was so much more than just an ex boyfriend. Even Ray knows that. Ava had to ask him why Sara was depressed. You'd think they'd want to show her girlfriend showing concern and wanting to be there for her. Instead they made if it about Ava's jealousy. 

Ava's "apology" was all about her, there was nothing in there saying I'm sorry you lost someone you cared about. And then Sara had to make Ava feel better afterwards. Sara comforted Ava when she was crying about being a clone or Sara not agreeing with her. But Ava can't do the same for her? Why would I want this woman to be Sara's endgame. 

If Ava being a clone is an issue for her then the best thing for her would be to go out in the world and find out who she is away from what she was programmed for. Sara can't help her with that especially if all she does is enable Ava to keep acting the same way. 

[Featherhat]

23 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

If she did know Sara she'd know Oliver was so much more than just an ex boyfriend. Even Ray knows that. Ava had to ask him why Sara was depressed. You'd think they'd want to show her girlfriend showing concern and wanting to be there for her. Instead they made if it about Ava's jealousy. 

Ray got his heart a bit battered by being in the middle of Olicity angst and still has a good (if distant) relationship with both of them now. I guess he actually knows Oliver rather than just reading about it in a file which helps. But even reading the file and seeing Sara visibly upset are massive clues this isn't an ordinary ex. Let alone the fact that they are still even friends after all that. Ava called to offer her condolences about Stein in the infamous first "hair down = love interest" scene and to also make sure they didn't mess up about Beebo so she's more than capable of knowing and feeling human emotions.

It wouldn't be such an issue but it feels like 99% of their relationship we see is Sara doing the heavy lifting and yeah Ava not really getting that whilst does have a lot of light, fun and great side in her now she also has a lot of darkness and shit to deal with and about five lifetimes worth of baggage to carry: that she *wants* to carry as she said to Mallus!Nora. I wouldn't advocate anyone having a romantic relationship with John Constantine, that can only end terribly but I like the fact that they get each other and their friendship based on that. She and Snart got each other as Killer and Klepto both eventually embracing a second chance.

Nyssa was the other way around, so much of their relationship was based on the LOA, even as it was a patch of happiness in a difficult 5 years. It's also difficult to judge as we saw a total of about three scenes together but they did love each other. Sara at least has grown passed it and Nyssa now has the League of Heroes with her sister and Thea. Even if she hadn't got cast in H50 I don't think KL would be getting on the Waverider anytime soon. But I do think it's interesting that she's talking about Nysara again.

I like JMC and I like Ava but not really the relationship. Doesn't help that someone pointed out Sara is basically dating early Laurel and now I can't unsee it. 

[Sakura12]

What I got from what Rip did, was program Ava to be a better version of Sara. One that would follow his orders and directions, with Sara's fighting skills. So Sara is dating a type A version of herself. 

 

 

[Proteus]

2 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Ray got his heart a bit battered by being in the middle of Olicity angst and still has a good (if distant) relationship with both of them now. I guess he actually knows Oliver rather than just reading about it in a file which helps. But even reading the file and seeing Sara visibly upset are massive clues this isn't an ordinary ex. Let alone the fact that they are still even friends after all that. Ava called to offer her condolences about Stein in the infamous first "hair down = love interest" scene and to also make sure they didn't mess up about Beebo so she's more than capable of knowing and feeling human emotions.

It wouldn't be such an issue but it feels like 99% of their relationship we see is Sara doing the heavy lifting and yeah Ava not really getting that whilst does have a lot of light, fun and great side in her now she also has a lot of darkness and shit to deal with and about five lifetimes worth of baggage to carry: that she *wants* to carry as she said to Mallus!Nora. I wouldn't advocate anyone having a romantic relationship with John Constantine, that can only end terribly but I like the fact that they get each other and their friendship based on that. She and Snart got each other as Killer and Klepto both eventually embracing a second chance.

Nyssa was the other way around, so much of their relationship was based on the LOA, even as it was a patch of happiness in a difficult 5 years. It's also difficult to judge as we saw a total of about three scenes together but they did love each other. Sara at least has grown passed it and Nyssa now has the League of Heroes with her sister and Thea. Even if she hadn't got cast in H50 I don't think KL would be getting on the Waverider anytime soon. But I do think it's interesting that she's talking about Nysara again.

I like JMC and I like Ava but not really the relationship. Doesn't help that someone pointed out Sara is basically dating early Laurel and now I can't unsee it. 

Nyssa wasn't involved with the LOH thing with Thea and Talia.

[Starfish35]

5 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

They do have chemistry, not sure if I'd want them to pair up because everyone Constantine loves dies horribly or worse but it would be more interesting than "Steelhacker". I don't know why Nate has always had a romance on the show, NZ's best work has been without one (4A). I mean I get why in theory but it hasn't worked out that "the beefcake" 🙄 of the show has the hottest chemistry with people, IMHO anyway. 

I agree.  I like Nate far better in his non-romantic relationships.  I don’t hate Nate/Zari, but...I don’t really see the point of it either.  I don’t see any chemistry there, and it feels very... oh I can’t even think of the word.  Like, this is required so they’re just going through the motions.  I mean, I can get into a good friends-to-lovers relationship, but...this doesn’t really feel like that.  

I think Nate/Amaya had much better chemistry; with them it was mostly just the doomed/starcrossed lovers aspect that made it annoying.  Well, that, and Nate becomes kind of insufferable when he’s in a relationship. 

[Featherhat]

38 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I don’t see any chemistry there, and it feels very... oh I can’t even think of the word.  Like, this is required so they’re just going through the motions.  I mean, I can get into a good friends-to-lovers relationship, but...this doesn’t really feel like that.  

It feels like for whatever reason they need NZ to be in a ship on screen, whether it's part of what sold him on the show/contract (main romantic hero) or just Klemmer's personal preference. Because they already had Avalance who are popular albeit not with me and could have done a lot more with Ray/Nora both last season and this season. With Nate/Zari it just felt like she was the only woman of appropriate age and sexuality so slap them together, formulaic and done. Oh and now it's "tragic" a love where they don't remember. 🙄 If they'd taken longer to build it up and make it unique it might have worked better but LOT rolls on instant! relationships quite a bit.

Nate/Amaya just suddenly happened as well, I like them a lot more, yeah when they backed off the tragic stuff and had some fun (as we got to experience through poor Zari herself!).  

Edited April 28, 2020 by Featherhat