S09.E15: The Valentino Submergence

[CherryAmes]

Penny looked quite a bit older than 30

 

I thought she looked her age which to me is pretty damn young!

 

With regard to the ma'am thing, it's been an issue for many women for a long time.  In terms of TV sitcoms I can recall an episode of Mary Tyler Moore that dealt with it "Today I am a Ma'am" and that was from back in 1970.  Anyway I usually feel bad for front line customer service people because they can't win, some women are going to get angry if they are addressed as "Ma'am" and others will get angry if you use their first name or say Ms when they want Mrs or Miss.  The simplest solution is to try not to use any form of address at all, but that's not always practical.

[PinkRibbons]

I can't say I quite get the "Ma'am" thing. In my experience everyone in customer service uses that term for women, just like they use "Sir" for men. The first time someone called me Ma'am I was 11 (granted it was over the phone, but still.) I've had everyone from paramedics to college registration office workers call me Ma'am, and I use it all the time when speaking to a woman I don't know. I always thought of it as basic politeness.

 

(I'm also a life-long Angeleno, so the idea that Penny wouldn't have been called Ma'am at least once by now strikes me as rather absurd. Has she never had to talk to a cop?)

 

Edit: My mother just told me that she took it hard when she went from "Miss" to "Ma'am" but that was almost 30 years ago. I think this might be the writers showing their age? The usage has changed in the past few decades.

Edited February 15, 2016 by PinkRibbons

[Homily]

With regard to the ma'am thing, it's been an issue for many women for a long time.  In terms of TV sitcoms I can recall an episode of Mary Tyler Moore that dealt with it "Today I am a Ma'am" and that was from back in 1970.

 

Speaking of which Mary was supposed to be 30 the first year of that show and Mary Tyler Moore was actually only a few years older than her character but watching that show now it's hard to think of her and Rhoda as only being 30 years old.  30 has gotten a lot younger in the last 40 years!  In terms of appearance and dress style but also in terms of interests and approach to life.  Which is not a bad thing. 

Edited February 15, 2016 by Homily

[Mom x 3]

Like watching paint dry.

 

Show should have made Amy pregnant after their ONS Shamy had, not Bern and Wallowitz..

I don't mind the Bernie baby as long as they stick to Howard as the caregiver, but I would love Amy being pregnant, because I think it will affect Sheldon more.  It would be good for both guys, actually, because neither of them seemed to have good dads.  

 

Maybe Stuart can be the baby's nanny?

This made me laugh, and at first I was on board, but I want his store to be successful.  Maybe if he made a bunch of money selling the store and didn't know what else to do.  I think he'd make a great Nanny though.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Has she never had to talk to a cop?

Probably not since she left Nebraska (in her teens).

[anna0852]

I really hope the baby is a girl. I feel like that would knock Howard out of his comfort zone a little and I'd love to see the former sleaze-bag (and he was!) trying to teach his daughter how to avoid what he used to be. Plus I think a boy would tempt the writers too much to hint at the same kind of mother/son relationship that Howard had with his mother (minus the Dad-taking-off part). We don't need a second generation of that!

[PinkRibbons]

Probably not since she left Nebraska (in her teens).

 

LOL, but seriously, while this isn't necessarily the gang-infested warland that it is often portrayed as, there are situations when you need to talk to the police for reasons that may have nothing to do with you yourself. Off the top of my head I've talked to the LAPD about the abandoned house on the block that was attracting squatters, filed a report about a lost wallet, asked officers why a street I use was blocked off, and recently let a nice young cop use my bathroom when what looked like half the force used our street as part of what looked like a giant manhunt complete with dogs. Every time they call me ma'am and my father sir.

[Quof]

Most of my friends became pregnant multiple times while taking birth control pills,

What??? 

 

Reminds of working at our university health clinic when I was a student.  A young woman came in because she thought she was pregnant.  I took the info for the chart, and asked if she was using birth control. She said she was on the pill.  I asked if she took it properly. "Oh, yes.  I took it every time we did it.  Sometimes I even took it when I thought we were going to do it, but we didn't."  Seriously, people. Over 92% effective with typical use, over 99% effective when used as directed.

[aemom]

Howard probably needs a tetanus shot more than anything else.

[mrspidey]

However the pregnancy turns out, this was a really funny episode tonight.  Hit on just about every cylinder.

 

BTW, I agree that Howard wasn’t overreacting.  You get bitten by a rabbit, you go to the hospital IMMEDIATELY.  Bernadette is insane for thinking that to be an overreaction.

Honestly, I think the whole rabbit situation was orchestrated by Bernie to lead into a baby discussion and then a "Well, as it happens..."-reveal. If that's true she most likely knew the rabbit was rabies-free. 

[Homily]

As far as we know Howard does go to the ER, that's certainly where he said he was going and really while Bernadette was minimizing the chances of something being wrong she was right there probably is nothing to worry about (even in a real life scenario).

[Saylii]

I got pregnant while on birth control. My OB said the only way to really be effective during marriage is birth control + condoms + spermicide lube. If you don't want a baby, you need at least two forms of birth control, even if you have a tubal ligation or vasectomy.

I would guess though that Bernie probably stopped her birth control but wasn't trying to force a pregnancy. I got the impression she and Howie had come to a "if it happens, it happens" conclusion.

I'm glad that it wasn't a Shamy pregnancy. I see very few laughs coming from Sheldon being a dad.

[shura]

LOL, but seriously, while this isn't necessarily the gang-infested warland that it is often portrayed as, there are situations when you need to talk to the police for reasons that may have nothing to do with you yourself. Off the top of my head I've talked to the LAPD about the abandoned house on the block that was attracting squatters, filed a report about a lost wallet, asked officers why a street I use was blocked off, and recently let a nice young cop use my bathroom when what looked like half the force used our street as part of what looked like a giant manhunt complete with dogs. Every time they call me ma'am and my father sir.

 

Hmm, you've got abandoned houses with squatters, disappearing wallets, streets blocked off for giant manhunts... Good thing it's not a gang-infested warland ;).

[PhysNerd]

Reminds of working at our university health clinic when I was a student.  A young woman came in because she thought she was pregnant.  I took the info for the chart, and asked if she was using birth control. She said she was on the pill.  I asked if she took it properly. "Oh, yes.  I took it every time we did it.  Sometimes I even took it when I thought we were going to do it, but we didn't."  Seriously, people. Over 92% effective with typical use, over 99% effective when used as directed.

 

My friends were pre-med and a couple were in medical school.  They all had been taking birth control pills since they were in high school.  They're the type of people that follow every rule and direction very precisely.  Yet, they still got pregnant while on the pill.  People forget that birth control doesn't mean you can never become pregnant.  It just means your chances are reduced.  The only way to guarantee that you won't get pregnant is to not have sex.  

The funny thing is that my friends who used Natural Family Planning did not get pregnant until they wanted to have kids.  Go figure. 

[LoneHaranguer]

 

She said she was on the pill.  I asked if she took it properly. "Oh, yes.  I took it every time we did it.  Sometimes I even took it when I thought we were going to do it, but we didn't."  Seriously, people. Over 92% effective with typical use, over 99% effective when used as directed.

There is a type of pill you use like that, so she may have just been confused about terminology.

[Quof]

This was 30 years ago.   There was no morning-after pill.

[Dobian]

Pretty funny ep, but the line of the night belonged to Kripke.  "Is my pole flag-related?"  Mwahahahahahaha!!!!

[terrymct]

It's possible they were trying to have a baby. I know several couples where the father is the primary caretaker, and Bernie and Howard discussed this. This is going to be good.

 

Six months ago, I'd have guessed that Stuart would be their nanny.   I'm glad his shop is finally open.   Bernie and Howard both make decent money and can afford day care.

[Homily]

I will be very disappointed if the big argument around the pregnancy storyline is who had to quit their job.  It's just not realistic at all and the writers should know that.

[Dobian]

I think Howard quitting his job to be the stay-at-home daddy is the obvious choice for comic mayhem.

[Homily]

I really hope they don't go there mainly because given how shrewish they've made Bernadette you just know he won't be able to do anything right and even if she says she wants to leave the child raising to him she isn't going to be able to let him make any decisions on his own.  In fairness though that's because up to know most of his decisions have been pretty stupid ones!

[LADreamr]

Sheldon/Amy baby raising would be fascinating. I'd love to see how they went about that.

[Driad]

Shamy baby? Maybe a Skinner box.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

[Hecate7]

So are we supposed to believe Bernadette planned a pregnancy without discussing it with Howard? Because I hate when tv shows intelligent people who get pregnant by accident (yeah, I'm looking at you ER where no doctor knew how to use birth control).  Yes, I know birth control isn't 100% effective, but it's pretty damned close when used properly and intelligent people who don't want to get pregnant use it properly. 

 

As long as none of them ever get sunburned, use antibiotics, antidepressants, retroviral medicine, or get the flu.

[Hecate7]

I got pregnant while on birth control. My OB said the only way to really be effective during marriage is birth control + condoms + spermicide lube. If you don't want a baby, you need at least two forms of birth control, even if you have a tubal ligation or vasectomy.

I would guess though that Bernie probably stopped her birth control but wasn't trying to force a pregnancy. I got the impression she and Howie had come to a "if it happens, it happens" conclusion.

I'm glad that it wasn't a Shamy pregnancy. I see very few laughs coming from Sheldon being a dad.

 

 

My guess would be that Bernadette took her pill an hour earlier or later than usual, or had the flu, or forgot that antibiotics given to her for a strep throat or something like that, would short-circuit the pill. I don't think Bernadette wanted kids or was likely ever to just stop the pill/shot/whatever it is she uses, but there are actually a lot of surprising things that can interfere. The usual thing is oversleeping or being away from the pills, and having to take an extra one the next day. But most people don't know that a sunburn or flu can ruin the pill even if you're taking it perfectly, and antibiotics can counteract the pill or the shot. So can Saint John's Wort. Bernadette knows Howard wants kids, so she told him instead of just taking a morning after pill when she found out, even though she's ambivalent.

 

Bernadette wasn't conflicted enough to just stop and see what happened, and if she had been I think she'd have told Howard that's what she was doing.

[Homily]

Bernadette is a microbiologist with a phd who works for a major pharmaceutical company I really hope that BBT wasn't trying to tell us that she was incapable of taking a birth control pill properly.  I suspect, based on what other characters have said in the past, that she probably wasn't on the pill.  If someone like Penny who really really doesn't want kids least of all when she was not in a serious relationship with Leonard was still relying on a trip to the drugstore before a night out I think the writers are telling us that women in their world do not take the pill.  Also based on where and when she conceived it sounded more like they had sex without being prepared (because as well all know people who've been married for a few years and live minutes away from their friends apartment can't wait 10 minutes to go home) and took a chance.  Which also suggests she wasn't on the pill.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Homily

[CherryAmes]

Absolutely, Homily, but also if Bernadette had been on the pill Howard would have said something about it and he never even mentions it.  I know it's a sitcom and of course they are under no obligation to have dialogue that resembles real life but I don't really believe for one minute that a husband who knows his wife is on the pill wouldn't say something if she got pregnant.  That they never went there tells me that the writers never even considered that Bernadette might have been on the pill.  As an aside it's stuff like this that makes me wonder how many women actually write for this show and if they get to have any say in the storylines that affect the women because I think most women would have spared a thought for how Bernie got pregnant if she was taking steps not to.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Bernadette knows Howard wants kids, so she told him instead of just taking a morning after pill when she found out, even though she's ambivalent.

By the time she knew, it would have been too late for a morning after pill. There are abortion pills, but she would have been going against her religion in addition to Howard's wishes.

[PinkRibbons]

I've said it before, I'll say it again -- there are a ton of reasons not to be on hormonal birth control, several of them health related, and it is in no way a universal drug for every woman of childbearing age who doesn't want children. Birth control is an individualized choice for every woman. Remember Elaine and the sponge?

[anna0852]

I was going to say, birth control doesn't automatically mean the Pill. The Pill gives me such horrible mood swings that I'm afraid to even try the patch or depo shots. I  have to use barrier methods if I don't want to end up on a 72-hour psych hold. I'm not exaggerating when I say that. Hormonal BC is not used by every woman. 

[Hecate7]

Absolutely, Homily, but also if Bernadette had been on the pill Howard would have said something about it and he never even mentions it.  I know it's a sitcom and of course they are under no obligation to have dialogue that resembles real life but I don't really believe for one minute that a husband who knows his wife is on the pill wouldn't say something if she got pregnant.  That they never went there tells me that the writers never even considered that Bernadette might have been on the pill.  As an aside it's stuff like this that makes me wonder how many women actually write for this show and if they get to have any say in the storylines that affect the women because I think most women would have spared a thought for how Bernie got pregnant if she was taking steps not to

 

Yes, but Howard probably wouldn't. That's not as surprising or outrageous as you think. For some reason almost every man asks, "Is it mine?" (which I think is kind of insulting), but most never think about birth control at all. It's never been his problem before, so why would he mention it now?

I was going to say, birth control doesn't automatically mean the Pill. The Pill gives me such horrible mood swings that I'm afraid to even try the patch or depo shots. I  have to use barrier methods if I don't want to end up on a 72-hour psych hold. I'm not exaggerating when I say that. Hormonal BC is not used by every woman. 

 

Very true.

 

But barrier methods also fail, probably about 12-32% of the time, so getting pregnant using them isn't that much of a surprise.

[Homily]

Yes, but Howard probably wouldn't. That's not as surprising or outrageous as you think. For some reason almost every man asks, "Is it mine?" (which I think is kind of insulting), but most never think about birth control at all. It's never been his problem before, so why would he mention it now?

 

Men in stable committed relationships do not ask "is it mine?".  That wouldn't just be insulting it would be suicidal. 

[Driad]

Yes, if Howard had asked if it was his, he would have found out what a cage match with a wolverine is really like.

Bernadette's possibly accidental pregnancy does not bother me compared to some medical dramas (looking at you, ER) in which many women doctors became pregnant, usually at particularly inconvenient times. It started to look as if the writers kept running out of ideas so they threw in the same old story line again.

If the baby is a girl, and they name her Deborah after Howard's mother, I hope they can restrain the fat jokes.

[Crs97]

Bernadette said

they were talking about having children and got careless one evening at Sheldon's place (in his bed!). It sounds like they were both open to the possibility. Also sounds like she was not on the pill.

Edited because I am not sure if I have to add spoiler tags for an episode that has already been shown, but is after this one. Just being careful here.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Crs97

[Catlyn]

The way Bernadette told the story, it sounded a little like Howard was ticked off at Sheldon for some reason and that's why he wanted to do it in Sheldon's bedroom. Usually, Howard says, "don't go in there."  

[Crs97]

Usually, Howard says, "don't go in there."

 

 

I think the "there" in that instance was the bathroom, meaning Howard just stunk up the place.

[Catlyn]

But this time, he said, let's go in ...

[Hecate7]

What??? 

 

Reminds of working at our university health clinic when I was a student.  A young woman came in because she thought she was pregnant.  I took the info for the chart, and asked if she was using birth control. She said she was on the pill.  I asked if she took it properly. "Oh, yes.  I took it every time we did it.  Sometimes I even took it when I thought we were going to do it, but we didn't."  Seriously, people. Over 92% effective with typical use, over 99% effective when used as directed.

 

Unless: 

 

1) you get a bad batch--women all over town got pregnant that way one year. Face it, Manufacturing is mostly automated and hit or miss, and so a few hundred or so pills might roll off the assembly line missing their active ingredients before anyone notices. I've purchased frozen lasagnas that were missing the sauce, or the cheese, moisturizers which were actually sealed and packaged without anything in the bottle, and sodas which were bottled and sold as a completely different flavor from what they actually were. I'm sure the same thing happens all the time with pharmaceuticals. Maybe this batch works, maybe it doesn't.

 

2) You have a sunburn. It can make the pill or shot or any hormone based contraceptive stop working.

 

3) You are taking amoxycillin, tetracyclin, or any other common antibiotic--those all interfere with the pill.

 

4) You drank some tea or took a supplement containing St. John's Wort.

 

5) You're just in that other 5% the pill just doesn't really work for. I know a woman who was on the pill, AND using a diaphragm and spermicides, who conceived. The daughter is now 29.

 

It is actually very common for the pill to fail. I'm not sure why so many people think it's so infallible because it's not.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Hecate7

[Quof]

All of those possibilities are factored into the scientifically proven statistics of typical use and perfect use.  Really, the pill is highly, highly effective. Frankly, I think all the women who claim to have been taking the pill when they got pregnant are just too embarrassed to admit how careless they were about taking it as directed.

 

And then there are those women who say "the pill just wasn't strong enough for my system" as if God, or evolution, decided their genetic material was so super special that it had to be perpetuated, birth control be damned. 

Edited April 1, 2016 by Quof

[LADreamr]

Then how about men grow up and wear a fucking condom, and take some responsibility in preventing an unwanted outcome.

[Hecate7]

All of those possibilities are factored into the scientifically proven statistics of typical use and perfect use.  Really, the pill is highly, highly effective. Frankly, I think all the women who claim to have been taking the pill when they got pregnant are just too embarrassed to admit how careless they were about taking it as directed.

 

And then there are those women who say "the pill just wasn't strong enough for my system" as if God, or evolution, decided their genetic material was so super special that it had to be perpetuated, birth control be damned. 

 

That's a pretty big assumption, especially considering that plenty of women are completely up-front about not taking it "as directed." There are plenty of reasons to miss a dose, and normally it's not a problem--doctors always told me that if you miss one, just take two the next time, but if you miss two it probably won't work. Of course, if you have the flu, or you are hung over, you might end up throwing up the pill before it gets in your bloodstream, but even then I think most women tell the truth about how it didn't get in their bloodstream.

 

The women telling about how they got pregnant ON THE PILL are genuinely surprised. They want to help other women not have that experience. They want to help doctors know the facts so that they can be more accurate in their instructions on how to take the blasted thing. That antibiotic thing was NEVER factored in. Doctors didn't even know about it until women starting getting pregnant in droves in the eighties, and even then, they resisted telling women, so that it continues to be a huge problem. It's a PILL. It's just a man-made, hormonal pill, and it does fail. 

 

The shot also fails, and people never forget to take it--it's just in there. Unless of course you get sunburned, or take an antibiotic, or drink St. John's wort....or, it just mysteriously fails because you're in that 1% who just get pregnant using it as directed. They never account for sunburn, antibiotics, or St. John's wort--that's not using it as directed, you see. But they never, ever, ever warn you about it or include that in the instructions, so women continue to be amazed that they got pregnant on the pill or shot or whatever.

 

Every woman I know who got pregnant on the pill, and I know a great many who have, WAS taking it as per her doctor's instructions. It's just that the doctor's instructions are very incomplete. They make it sound like if you just take it every day, it'll work, but that's not the whole truth. It's very effective, but it's not 99%. It's not even 95%. And sometimes the pill isn't strong enough for some women. It's not about her being "super special," it's about the fact that a one-size-fits-all hormonal birth control pill isn't really possible.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Hecate7