S01.E04: The World In The Walls

ElectricBoogaloo · February 2, 2016

Quentin panics when he wakes up in a mental hospital; upset over her fight with Quentin, Julia commits herself to learning more powerful spells.

ElectricBoogaloo · February 3, 2016

Oh, good, so the Buffy episode Normal Again.

grandemocha · February 3, 2016

Oh, good, so the Buffy episode Normal Again.

Unpopular opinion time ;) - I loved Normal Again. In the overall flow of the season, yeah, it was probably a pointless episode since it didn't lead to anything, but Normal Again was one of my favorite Season 6 episodes. In this case though, unlike Buffy who seemingly had 7 years of her life in Sunnydale turn out to be a hallucination, Quentin has only been at Brakebills 3-4 months, wouldn't he just think "Okay, let me act completely normal so they stop thinking I believe in magic and then I can get out of here and investigate"?

Edited February 3, 2016 by grandemocha

ElectricBoogaloo · February 3, 2016

Normal Again is not one of my all time favorite episodes but I appreciated it for what it was. No, it didn't lead to anything new but it gave us that Sliding Doors peek into another possibility. Even though I knew that Buffy would eventually choose to go back to the world where she was the slayer and fight (mostly because it wasn't a season finale episode so duh, it's not like they were going to show Buffy being catatonic for the rest of S6), it was interesting to see her struggle to choose. Quentin doesn't have quite the same history interacting with the supernatural world (and I really wish they would clarify the timeline because I didn't realize a few months had passed between episodes 1 and 3 until someone mentioned it in the episode thread), but he does have a history of being in the psych ward (in the first episode, Julia says she knows that he was there again while he was missing) so it seems like he would know what to say and how to act to get himself released.

But my previous comment was less about my feelings about Normal Again and more about another derivative plot point in The Magicians. Honestly, I feel like at least half of each episode reminds me of something else I've already read or watched.

Crim · February 4, 2016

We knew what Buffy's choice would be, but imo this choice, built upon her characterization and themes of the show, was about more than the unsurprising resolution itself in a way that can't be the case in the 3rd episode of a show. Also, I'd be more enthusiastic about the episode if Quentin's psychiatric history hadn't been about his "woe, life is meaningless" depression. I understand that he feels that losing Brakebills would mean his life is shit, so it could be a fabrication (plus there is the fact that some of it is based on children's books), but... come on, there's just such a leap from what we previously saw to this supposedly utterly psychotic break and him being medicated into zombie mode that I agree it feels more derivative than an organic development. I suppose it could be something one of the show runners wanted to explore, and the show could surprise us by being insightful. (The writer is John McNamara. That tells me nothing.)

Edited February 4, 2016 by Crim

KaleyFirefly · February 9, 2016

I was a little confused by the abrupt ending. So what happened to Kady, did Marina (Queen Hedge Witch) kill her? And why did Marina give Julia the Special Magic Stars on her arm, only to cut her off? Or did she cut her off? I'm confused.

MVPs of the episode: Penny, Elliot, and the Dean

blugirlami21 · February 9, 2016

Jules continues to disappoint me. I could understand her doing the spell if she didn't know the recipient which is still bad but I thought that Quentin was still someone she cared about.

Penny is definitely turning into one of my favorites. I also love that he and Quentin are starting to become friends.

Marina knew that Jules and Kady didn't do what they were supposed to. She still has Kady under her thumb but Jules is a liability. I'm guessing she did a spell to take away all the power Jules has gained so far and has kicked her out.

kat165 · February 9, 2016

I didn't see that Buffy episode or even watched Buffy at all so this ep was somewhat "fresh" for me, and I enjoyed it. It did seem to be misplaced though/shown out of order as it didn't seem to connect much at all with the previous episode. I like the whole concept of being trapped inside your head. Something to ponder, but in my head I'd go to a much nicer place and have a much better time!

I would like to know what happened to Kady or what Marina did to her, but hopefully we'll find out next week.

I liked that Quentin sang that song to call Penny to him. Clever idea. That bug crawling into his mouth at Brakebills and then coming out of his mouth in the hospital was kind of cool.

Quentin doesn't bother me, I guess because he's a welcome relief from all those slick,

well groomed vampires/werewolves that are popular now. He looks very Seattle 95

and I like that.

Kaley, Marina was pissed that Jules ratted her out so, as blugirl says above, she tossed her out &

possibly took away her powers or at least (it seems like) she's closed her off from the hedge witches.

Edited February 9, 2016 by kat165

WildPlum · February 9, 2016

I don't think Quentin's internal world would have been that bleak if just Julia had been designing the "acid trip" - Marina was the one who really wanted to punish Quentin for coming to get the book. I also suspect they were dragging bits out of Quentin's mind and turning them against him (ragingly horny Alice and Dream Penny)

Lol, Penny's reaction to Dream Penny was pretty amusing.

As far as the order of episodes, I think this channel has been known to show things out of order (ie: Firefly), maybe that happened. Pretty sure the show Dresden Files was also shown out of order - that was a kind of episode-of-the-week show though, so it didn't have a lot of running plot. That was a show that slowly grew on me, riiiiight up until it was cancelled.

kat165 · February 9, 2016

Good point, WildPlum. And when Jules was speaking to him when
they were sitting on the couch, how she laughed, I think that
was Marina laughing through Jules.

Penny's reaction to dream Penny was hilarious plus calling
Quentin a racist because of how dream Penny was being portrayed.
And how creepy for him (Penny) to find a sort of replica of himself there.

When Q met up with his father I didn't see anything weird or
different/noticeable about his face. Since we have like no
background on these characters I thought maybe his father was
dead and that's why he seemed so surprised to see him.

Maybe they are being shown out of order. Nothing Scify does
surprises me anymore. ANd sorry your show got cancelled. That
happens to me all the time. As soon as I really get into a
show that's when the axe falls.

grandemocha · February 9, 2016

As far as the order of episodes, I think this channel has been known to show things out of order (ie: Firefly), maybe that happened.

Maybe they are being shown out of order.

This episode doesn't appear to be show out of order though? They referenced things that happened last week, specifically Elliot and Q going back to retrieve the second book.

ElectricBoogaloo · February 9, 2016

Definitely a lot of Normal Again similarities (and the scorpion entering/exiting Quentin's mouth reminded me of the S7 episode where there was some weird thing that entered Spike's nose sp they could figure out his weird fugue states) but the episode was worth it just to watch Quentin run around singing "Shake It Off" in music therapy.

Edited February 9, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

FiveByFive · February 9, 2016

Oh, good, so the Buffy episode Normal Again.

That's the first thing I thought when I started watching it. Then again that idea was done even before Buffy and was done on Supernatural. I love this show but I'm honestly kind of sick of that recycled plot idea. Anytime there is a scifi show set in the "real world" with supernatural beings I wait for this plot to come up. "Oh so now you have to choose between the real world and the fake magic world!"

The one thing Buffy did, however, was have it be slightly appealing to stay in the other world by having Hank and Joyce together and Joyce being alive so at least with that one you could see why she'd want to stick around. Quentin didn't have that issue.

Jules continues to disappoint me. I could understand her doing the spell if she didn't know the recipient which is still bad but I thought that Quentin was still someone she cared about.

From what I got from watching, Jules didn't think the spell would be as powerful as it was. She just wanted to "mess with him" ala the witches (initially) vs. Sarah in the Craft but just like in that film Nancy/Marina had other ideas and the choice is whether to stand with her or turn against her. My problem is, that while Jules felt remorseful after she "learned" that Quentin could stay in dream land forever - it took some prompting before she moved her butt to even attempt to help him. Kady seemed to care about the repercussions of the spell from the get-go once she learned them even helping the gang find Quentin.

Jules your friend told you off ... he didn't try to attack you psychically.

ANd sorry your show got cancelled. That

happens to me all the time. As soon as I really get into a

show that's when the axe falls.

They are the worst with that. After Alphas' cancellation I'm still too nervous to truly fall in love with any show on SyFy. At least "Being Human" got an ending.

paulvdb · February 9, 2016

I stopped watching this show because I didn't like any of the characters, but based on the description some variation of the concept has been done on half the scifi/fantasy show that I've watched. You know it's not original any more when the concept is used on two different shows on the same day (the other one is Supergirl).

wayne67 · February 9, 2016

Well this episode was the most I laughed. Surprisingly enough from Quentin. He got some really good moments this episode.

"Penny a dick in every reality." Is definitely amusing

Then the terrible renditions of Taylor Swift songs. Hilariously bad. Like real karaoke. Also the magical impotence when he was trying to show off his miniature sun.

As for Julia and the hedge witches they're dead to me. Psychic rape is so not cool. It's worse since Julia knows what it's like to have her mind tampered with and yet she decided messing with her supposedly best friend's sanity because he was callous to her about her rejection and she's beyond the moral horizon for me. The fact that it took her so long to do something about Quentin's condition makes it worse.

I think it's more that she was so wish washy about it. If you're going to screw over your friends go all Mystique and ditch them completely don't snipe at them and then be all pathetic about the consequences of your own actions.

I honestly don't know where Kady ended up. I guess it really depends on whether she's alive next episode and if we ever get an explanation for her being an errand girl to Marina.

ElectricBoogaloo · February 9, 2016

It looks like they had so much fun shooting the Taylor Swift scene!

Trisan · February 9, 2016

Well, seems I'm in the minority as I loved it !

I'm actually co-writing and acting in a web-series taking place in a (weird-as-shit) asylum and I saw there a few themes we used, so it amused me (and it's a kind of "game with the audience" I really like) so I'm biased, but I really enjoyed the shit out of this episode !

HunterHunted · February 9, 2016

Jules seems to be part of that subset of society, which includes reality TV stars and Donald Trump, who don't seem to understand what a joke is. You can't just say and do heinous stuff and make excuses that it was a joke when people get mad. Quentin was a dickish to Jules, but she thought the appropriate response was to lock Quentin in a prison of his own mind where he thought he was delusional? Her response was completely outsized to his transgression. It makes you wonder what she would have done if Quentin had gotten into Yale and hadn't. Maybe frame him for murder? It also reveals that her smug superiority has been the defining characteristic of their friendship probably for the last couple of years.

paramitch · February 9, 2016

I really liked the episode, and was relieved that it had very little to do with "Normal Again," nor did it really hearken back to that at all to me. It's a trope, but while "Normal Again" just felt like a cheap one-off (and a cheat, given the Buffyverse we had already encountered at that point -- a sharp left turn teasing us that everything we've seen is a lie is a great way to piss me off as a viewer, but I hated Season 6 anyway), SO...

I disagree with those who found this just a "Normal Again" reference. I don't agree at all. The asylum storyline fit seamlessly with who Quentin is, and who he was when the story started, when he was desperate for any kind of meaning, and so depressed that he checked himself in. The fear that he never left would be terrifying, as would the realization that magic was a lie.

So what I liked here was that it was all about the strength of Quentin's belief. How unshakable is his BELIEF in magic? In his belief in Fillory? In himself?

This really put him to the test in new ways, and I found the ways he got around the puzzle to be genuinely fresh and interesting. I loved his using the throwaway moment with Penny from last week as an important plot point here, and his 'waking' Penny in sheer fury and annoyance was brilliant.

Plus, the scene of Quentin singing and dancing with a delirious group of mental patients to Taylor Swift was for me worth the entire episode. Even if this entire episode would have sucked (and it didn't), I'd have given it an A+ for that scene alone. I laughed until I almost cried when I realized the song was "Shake it Off." And best of all, it was actually really kind of adorable, sweet, joyful, and fun. Shine on, Quentin, you funny little star.

My other favorite moment was when Alice is throwing herself at Quentin, as they rip her way and she's going, "I'll still mate with you! I'll still mate with you!" Eliot is over to the side going, "Me three! Me three!" So funny! (Also, if you rewatch this episode, Insane-Eliot's hair is occasionally freaking hilarious. It's a fro. Seriously.

I wasn't sure what to think at first, but once I got into the episode and it was established that no, Quentin was not actually even remotely being painted as actually crazypants (BUFFY), any even faint similarity to "Normal Again" left and it was obviously something very different. The asylum was so sad -- I felt so bad for Quentin's silent roommate, who kept carrying around that pink bunny (and then later we see him tucked into bed with it!), and I liked it as a setting because I do think it's where Quentin feels he would be if he had to live without magic again. It's too much a part of him now.

I also liked Julia's realization that she had crossed a line (in part because she hadn't known how dark or ruthless Marina was willing to go), as well as the way this was mirrored in Quentin's final talk with the Dean (a lovely scene), when he said (paraphrased). "I don't need you to tell me whether I should do magic. I need you to teach me magic and let me decide that for myself."

I admit that I was disappointed that Marina went so dark this episode. I kind of love her, and I like her better as a badass versus just going totally bad, but her magical 'amputation' story was pretty awful, and it was an interesting mirror to Julia's own situation. But the fact that she was willing to use Julia to permanently incapacitate her best friend (and without her really understanding what was happening) was pretty awful. But I also enjoyed the drama of her absolute ruthlessness -- the moment when Marina removed Julia's tattoos (I think?) and then threw her out into nowhere to fend for herself was shocking and brutal. Julia already had it rough, so this was tough to watch.

I did like the evolution of Quentin's relationships here and the peeks into his mind. We saw from his subconscious that he's got some guilt toward his Dad (leaving to study magic?) and that he's definitely interested in Alice, and also how much the Physical Kids seemed to care that he was in danger. I also really love the complexity of his friendship with Penny. Penny can't stand Quentin but you still could see that he cares about him in his weird way. This entire episode was just Penny for the win (and I also loved his disgusted reaction at realizing he had been reduced to an Indian stereotype in the orderly character Quentin had him playing).

Last but not least, I enjoyed the constant Narnia (FILLORY<cough>) references throughout here. We again had the beautiful moments of entrance to Brakebills through this forest of green and flowers (this time, by Julia and Marina), which was so Narnia-like to me, and I liked the fact that Quentin's love for the Fillory stories was what ultimately helped him to figure out how to beat his magical prison. I also liked the continued appearance of Jane Chatwin from the Fillory stories as a real presence to Quentin.

I don't think Quentin's internal world would have been that bleak if just Julia had been designing the "acid trip" - Marina was the one who really wanted to punish Quentin for coming to get the book. I also suspect they were dragging bits out of Quentin's mind and turning them against him (ragingly horny Alice and Dream Penny)

This. I think Marina used Julia to play a "prank" on Quentin (and Quentin said some pretty cruel things to Julia last episode, including, to paraphrase, "I know people who can fly and do amazing things, and all you can do is a party trick. So let it go."). Julia was happy to embarrass Quentin or even give him a nightmare, but I don't think she intended to truly hurt him, and she certainly immediately did everything she could to save him. I was shocked when she actually went to the Dean himself.

It looks like they had so much fun shooting the Taylor Swift scene!

Thanks so much for sharing those -- I suspected that it must have been a blast, and it was! Also, this cast is really fun to watch in these featurettes and interviews. They all come across as pretty funny, quirky people.

Meanwhile, I'm still enjoying the show, and am glad it's been renewed already for Season 2. So lots more magical shenanigans ahead!

iMonrey · February 9, 2016

Anytime there is a scifi show set in the "real world" with supernatural beings I wait for this plot to come up. "Oh so now you have to choose between the real world and the fake magic world!"

Yup. Buffy, Supernatural, Charmed, and even Supergirl had the same premise this week. Jeez. I don't know if this happened in the book or not but either way it's far from an original idea at this point. What are they thinking, doing an episode like this only four episodes into the first season? What, the writers have never seen any other TV show before and thought this was original?

That said, it was a bit more cohesive than the first three episodes and didn't feel like huge chunks of it were missing, which is the problem I've had with this show so far. And yeah the "Shake it off" number was pretty funny.

ElectricBoogaloo · February 9, 2016

Hahahaha, now I kind of hope that Quentin will deliberately sing Taylor Swift in his head whenever Penny's around and try to get him to sing along. I would also settle for Quentin singing Britney Spears at the top of his lungs (aloud!) every time he sees Penny. I bet he could at least get Eliot to yell things like "WE ARE NEVER EVER EVER GETTING BACK TOGETHER!" when Penny walks by.

Y'all, I wrote this after last week's episode and then it basically happened, so let me just state for the record that I would like to win the lottery but without suffering from the lottery curse. It doesn't even have to be a crazy powerball win, just enough so I can buy an awesome beachfront house and retire.

stillshimpy · February 9, 2016

Plus, the scene of Quentin singing and dancing with a delirious group of mental patients to Taylor Swift was for me worth the entire episode. Even if this entire episode would have sucked (and it didn't), I'd have given it an A+ for that scene alone. I laughed until I almost cried when I realized the song was "Shake it Off." And best of all, it was actually really kind of adorable, sweet, joyful, and fun. Shine on, Quentin, you funny little star.

That was one of the funniest and most unexpected call-backs of all time, as far as I'm concerned. At first I thought it was Penny doing that to Quentin and was really ticked off at Penny's character, until Penny showed up, being demonstrably Penny. I like what they're doing with that character. He makes for a good Frenemy character and I liked that he simply plunged back into Marina's psycho trap for Quentin, to help save him, even though Quentin and Penny aren't exactly born to sing a duet.

I admit that I was disappointed that Marina went so dark this episode. I kind of love her, and I like her better as a badass versus just going totally bad, but her magical 'amputation' story was pretty awful, and it was an interesting mirror to Julia's own situation. But the fact that she was willing to use Julia to permanently incapacitate her best friend (and without her really understanding what was happening) was pretty awful. But I also enjoyed the drama of her absolute ruthlessness -- the moment when Marina removed Julia's tattoos (I think?) and then threw her out into nowhere to fend for herself was shocking and brutal. Julia already had it rough, so this was tough to watch.

I was more comfortable with them making Marina into a complete and total wackjob and Julia being thrown out into the cold, because I wasn't loving the idea that Julia had done something so vicious to Quentin, having any idea at all how dangerous it could be. That she thought it was just supposed to give him a bad dream, but not permanently ensnare him, while unkind, at least seem proportionate to Quentin's actions in this story -- where he didn't tell anyone the mindwipe failed to work so that Julia would have to be punished with the knowledge that Brakebills existed and she couldn't get in -- that Quentin's motivation was cruel, and Julia trying to give him a terrible nightmare was cruel ,but supposed to last a night, vs. the rest of his existence. Yikes that was chilling.

I felt for Julia at the end, but she really was the architect of her own misery there. Marina apparently has something on Kady that is compelling enough that Marina knows she won't talk. Kady came off as being someone you'd actually want around and on your team. Leading me to believe that Marina doesn't have something on Kady: she has someone because Kady led Penny directly to Quentin when Elliot was being dismissive and also went to get Julia.

So whatever is going on with Kady, being a sociopathic motherfucker is not part of her gig. Apparently it is for Marina and whereas I felt for Julia being cast out into the cold, mostly I was just appalled that she hadn't left on her own after understanding what Marina was capable of doing.

I loved the evolution of Jane Chatwin from a very two dimensional representation in the first appearances -- like a character on a page -- into someone who interacts with Quentin in an increasingly believable, more layered fashion as she helps him fight his own way out of the dream, using the story.

Great work by all the young actors though. The casting director on this project deserves huge kudos and I'm in danger of actually liking Penny, which is nothing short of miraculous.

Y'all, I wrote this after last week's episode and then it basically happened, so let me just state for the record that I would like to win the lottery but without suffering from the lottery curse. It doesn't even have to be a crazy powerball win, just enough so I can buy an awesome beachfront house and retire.

Yeah, but since you said it in response to my saying I wished that Quentin would throw back his head and sing "I don't know about you, I'm feelin' 22!" at the top of his lung, you're going to owe me half your winnings ;-)

Edited February 9, 2016 by stillshimpy

ElectricBoogaloo · February 9, 2016

Leading me to believe that Marina doesn't have something on Kady: she has someone because Kady led Penny directly to Quentin when Elliot was being dismissive and also went to get Julia.

I thought that Kady taking Penny to Quentin was part of Marina's plan. She needed the people at Brakebills to find Quentin and see that he was under that spell so that Dean Fogg would have to temporarily remove the wards around the school to allow that thing that started with an M enter the grounds to help remove the spell. Before Marina and Julia left for Brakebills, Marina made a comment to Kady about doing her part in this plan and mentioned Penny.

Ha, if I win the lottery, the first thing I will do is buy each of us a Taylor Swift album!

stillshimpy · February 9, 2016

Y'all, I wrote this after last week's episode and then it basically happened, so let me just state for the record that I would like to win the lottery but without suffering from the lottery curse. It doesn't even have to be a crazy powerball win, just enough so I can buy an awesome beachfront house and retire.

Oh that's right, but she also went and got Julia, so she did seem to actually care about what happened to Quentin, which Marina most decidedly did not. When Marina said that Kady wouldn't talk, that struck me as interesting, seeing as Kady was the person recognizing that Marina is a psychopath. So since Kady seems to actually know that about Marina, I'm assuming there has to be a reason she still does her bidding.

Ha, if I win the lottery, the first thing I will do is buy each of us a Taylor Swift album!

Deal, as long as you also buy us earplugs ;-)

Primetimer · February 9, 2016

Reigning champion 'The Name Game' from AHS: Asylum takes on newcomer 'Shake It Off' as performed by a psychologically damaged magician.

Read the story

gaby4ever25 · February 9, 2016

Julia was a horrible friend to Quentin. I don't understand how she considered the spell a joke. It didn't really matter if it turned out worse and that she tried to help. She trapped him in his mind and used one of the worst experiences against him. I just hope the writers haven't set her up to be shamed by everyone especially Quentin. I can't stand her poor me demeanor. Quentin should forgive her and move on.

stillshimpy · February 9, 2016

From the recap, which I agreed with in parts and disagreed with in others (although, gods and monsters, man, Chicken Fried? You have my audio-sympathy forever):

When, two-thirds into the episode, we see Penny and Julia wake from their separate trips to Quentin's fantasy asylum, my first thought was, "Okay, this episode has fourteen minutes to redeem itself." It totally doesn't; a lot of the remaining time is spent standing around Quentin's limp body, and the ultimate reveal -- that Marina placed a spell on Quentin so powerful that Dean Fogg's only solution was to disarm the wards protecting the campus in order to retrieve an insect demon capable of waking him, thereby allowing Marina and Julia access to the campus, and the memories Brakebills stole from Marina when she was expelled three months before her graduation -- is as clunky as it sounds. The episode does end on a surprising plot-shakeup for Julia, as Marina exiles her from the Hedge Witches for attempting to save Quentin, but the destination is not worth the journey.

I admit, I liked this in part because it was better than that normal Scifi/Fantasy Trope that Buffy and a couple of other shows have visited, BtVS with Normal Again but it's far from the first story to go there. So because it didn't suck-inside-out I liked it. Then it genuinely had some delightful stuff with that musical number, but here's what really, really bothered me about "Marina knew that Fogg would have to take down the wards in order to summon the evil, evil, buggy thing" ....why didn't they just take Quentin outside of the wards instead?

That was one of those plot resolutions where I kind of had to agree to go along with several ludicrous leaps on non-logic. Marina knew that Fogg would drop the gates entirely rather than ....have Quentin carried off campus? Huh?!?

Julia, having realized that she has not played some malicious, but intended to be only one night's bad dream, revenge play on Quentin....in response to Quentin's own "I take revenge upon you for never returning my romantic feelings by making you live with the knowledge that you couldn't get in (see who's not special enough now?!?)" petty bullshit....which I'm willing to forgive on both sides because it does seem to be fairly age appropriate jackassery on both their parts, if overly cruel as a punishment in both cases. Anyway...the problem I had was that Julia realizes that Marina not only decidedly did NOT give even half a flying fuck if she'd basically tricked Julia into extinguishing Quentin's participation in the world....damning him to some hellish coma-world...that Julia didn't make great tracks to get the fuck away from Marina.

That's not "Hey, it's magic, I can see the appeal...." that's "don't stand next to the powerful psycho with a now proven track record of lying to you....haul butt to anywhere but there...."

It's a story about magic being real, there's always going to be some suspension of disbelief required, but those Marina accurately guessing that Fogg would respond in a way that no one with magical abilities actually would "Let's open up the door to every manner of horror and creepy thing, because god knows I didn't just have my eyeballs plucked directly from my damned head the last time that happened...." It also required me to believe that Julia didn't immediately say "Oh hey, that was an interesting ...uh....field trip....but I need to get home ....." and make like roadrunner beep-beeping.

Crim · February 9, 2016

Well, I guess this settles it then. I loathe Brakebills. The show seems to expect me to believe they are the good guys, but I don't see any evidence of that.

I was so thrilled when it was revealed that Quentin was stuck in a prison of his own making, because the alternative was the show going for such horrible cliches all around. (Penny's "you racist mofo" line was the best line of the episode.) I had no reaction to his horror, to the fact that he couldn't wake up (it was obvious he would), or that he rescued himself (duh).

Only 2 scenes meant anything to me: the one where Marina was looking for the box - I found it tense because there was a possibility she would be thwarted, which I did not want - and the one where Julia is thrown out, which was awful, but understandable. Julia meant well, i.e. she meant to save the Main Male Character, despite the fact that he ditched her in a haze of wounded, resentful pride and entitlement, but she did betray Marina, so there is that. I understand her decision, but I think it was silly. As for Marina's motivation in all this? The thing that makes the most sense to me on the show so far: unlike Julia, she had magical knowledge, she has so many memories still, but it was all taken from her and her memory wasn't wiped. I don't see Brakebills as the fair place that is necessarily in the right for kicking her out; that's just not a moral authority I am willing to confer it at this point. If the show wants me to see her as the villain, have someone explain why she was kicked out; maybe she burned puppies or summoned baby-eating demons, something that would explain the horrible thing they did to her. What evil has she done with the hedge magic she had? We were shown nothing of the sort. What evil did she announce as the plan when she got herself back? She planned to teach more magic to people. Well, I just ain't seeing her villainous ways, really. We saw how fucked up Julia was by being in a lesser situation. I just don't blame Marina for being willing to sacrifice a stranger to heal herself. Many people would say that this is a horrible, unforgivable act. Maybe it's because morality is just something that I will never understand on a more than intellectual level, but I don't believe that they wouldn't do the same. Julia had it easy, comparatively, finding a group to teach her, but now she doesn't have it anymore. It's awful, but fair.

Also, I was amused and irritated by how stupid Quintin was in the hospital, since he wasn't actually mentally impaired. He didn't even try to cooperate and pretend to obtain the things he needed. His arrogance just didn't allow him to play along, no matter what the cost. He told the nurse he was certain he made her up? I laughed at how excellent that line was for the character.

Anela · February 9, 2016

I've never seen Normal Again, but I figured it was Jules getting her own back in a really nasty way.

Loved the "shake it off" bit. I knew I recognized it from somewhere, and like someone above, started to laugh when I realized what it was.

I don't like Marina. She was fine with him stuck in that insanity, as long as she got what she wanted.

I have all three books out of the library, so now I can read and join in with the book thread at some point.

wayne67 · February 9, 2016

Julia, having realized that she has not played some malicious, but intended to be only one night's bad dream, revenge play on Quentin....in response to Quentin's own "I take revenge upon you for never returning my romantic feelings by making you live with the knowledge that you couldn't get in (see who's not special enough now?!?)" petty bullshit....which I'm willing to forgive on both sides because it does seem to be fairly age appropriate jackassery on both their parts, if overly cruel as a punishment in both cases. Anyway...the problem I had was that Julia realizes that Marina not only decidedly did NOT give even half a flying fuck if she'd basically tricked Julia into extinguishing Quentin's participation in the world....damning him to some hellish coma-world...that Julia didn't make great tracks to get the fuck away from Marina.

That's not "Hey, it's magic, I can see the appeal...." that's "don't stand next to the powerful psycho with a now proven track record of lying to you....haul butt to anywhere but there...."

The editing had Julia complaining about not knowing Quentin would suffer that much to let's get on a field trip to get more magic. Not exactly showing much contrition for her actions. Maybe if we had a voice over from her POV or she had a sounding board I could take her actions to mean "I'll do a Richard Reeds and try everything I can to fix what I sort of unintentionally did to my best friend". Unfortunately it just came off as while she didn't mean for it to go that far she didn't really care enough to harass Marina into fixing it immediately.

Edited February 9, 2016 by wayne67

stillshimpy · February 9, 2016

Julia meant well, i.e. she meant to save the Main Male Character, despite the fact that he ditched her in a haze of wounded, resentful pride and entitlement, but she did betray Marina, so there is that. I understand her decision, but I think it was silly. As for Marina's motivation in all this? The thing that makes the most sense to me on the show so far: unlike Julia, she had magical knowledge, she has so many memories still, but it was all taken from her and her memory wasn't wiped.

Yeah, it's hard to tell precisely what Marina's motivations are at present, but she did deceive Julia from jump on what she was doing, so I can't say that the whole "Julia betrayed Marina" carries any weight with me. Quentin's not exactly a lovable dude, but Marina was willing to treat him as disposable, or like some kind of casualty in a war that Julia didn't even know she was helping to fight.

By the same token, I agree with you that Brakebills weird elitism is very off-putting -- because there is just nothing to say that they are the arbiter of magical knowledge or the true judge of affinity or talent, but they clearly believe they have that right -- it's hard to say whether that's because they actually are some moral authority, vs. having more power that they very closely guard.

However, Dean Fogg, who had suffered a fair amount the last time the school was breached, didn't even pause to consider a selfish motivation like "Oh hey, I'd like to not die" and neither did Penny when he went into that world after him.

So whatever Marina did or didn't do, she's not working by any of the rules of good that are recognizable to me and since we don't know her motivation yet, it's hard to say if she's justified. Quentin might be a drip, but she doesn't actually get to decide that he's so unworthy that it's okay if he's just locked in some dreamworld and not have that matter.

Edited February 9, 2016 by stillshimpy

grandemocha · February 9, 2016

I really enjoyed this episode, and the ending was great. Marina is a very interesting character to me. I wouldn't outright characterize her as a EVIL nonredeemable person right now but man did she go darker this episode. She, along with Julia and Kady set Quentin up to be trapped in his own mind and eventually just succumb to the insanity of the fake mental institute. First off, Brakebills seems to suck hard at wiping student's memories. Marina was 3 months from graduation when she was cast out, so she had to have done something so horrible that the staff saw no choice but to remove her access to Brakebills and magic. She seems to know the inner workings of Brakebills and how the Dean would behave in the situation she set up, so I am incredibly interested to learn more about her and how she changed. Marina doesn't even seem to have anything against Quentin specifically, she just considers him collateral damage and doesn't give a shit if he dies..which doesn't make her nice exactly.

What Julia did or participated in against Quentin was pretty fucked up. She clearly knows his history with mental issues and I kind of agree with Elliot that she did it to get even with Q for what he said to her last episode. She's not a teenager so she really should've known better, it seems as though her quest for magic is leading her to ignore every other aspect of her life, she has tunnel vision right now and anyone who gets in her way can go to hell. It was clear or it should have been clear to Julia from the moment she met Pete and Marina that she shouldn't trust them at all, and she paid the price at the end by getting her hedge witch progress burned off her arm and being banished.

I'm liking Penny more and more, and I am loving his traveler ability. It's almost like astral projection except I think he's able to affect the other environments he travels to at will? He really is a decent person seeing as how he immediately tried to help Q out once he woke up and called Julia out on her fucked up behavior. I did crack the hell up when he called Quentin a "racist motherfucker" for giving illusion Penny such a stereotypical accent and behavior.

I'm curious as to why Marina specifically said Kady "can't talk" after Julia and Kady backed out on her at the last minute about leaving Quentin trapped. Why exactly can't she talk? Is Marina using magic to keep Kady silent or is it just good old fashioned blackmail?

Edited February 9, 2016 by grandemocha

FiveByFive · February 9, 2016

I thought that Kady taking Penny to Quentin was part of Marina's plan. She needed the people at Brakebills to find Quentin and see that he was under that spell so that Dean Fogg would have to temporarily remove the wards around the school to allow that thing that started with an M enter the grounds to help remove the spell. Before Marina and Julia left for Brakebills, Marina made a comment to Kady about doing her part in this plan and mentioned Penny.

I went back for a rewatch because -- I kind of like this show. From what I gathered, Marina and Jules knew that Quentin had managed to contact Penny because they were observing him when they were putting him under the spell. When they came out of it, she sent Kady to lead Penny to Quentin. The weird part here is, what would they have done if Quentin didn't have that connection with Penny and had not been able to contact him to start him on the hunt? Elliot was the one who mentioned they should get the Dean.

I will say that while I don't think Jules wanted to permanently incapacitate Quentin initially the fact remains that she knew it was a possibility this could happen from Marina. She still went along with Marina to the school while Quentin was trapped in his mind cage and she only went to help when Kady reiterated how bleak things looked because as Kady said, "I didn't sign up for this shit!"

As for what Marina has on Kady: it could be as simple as, "if they find out Kady is a double agent they will take her memories and boot her out." So, she "can't" talk. One thing I did notice is that Kady had no problem mouthing off to Marina in the car a few episodes ago and calling her a psychopath in this one.

Also: Total American Horror Story Asylum vibes when everyone broke out into a Taylor Swift dance fest ala The Name Game dance sequence.

Edited February 9, 2016 by FiveByFive

stillshimpy · February 9, 2016

As far as I could tell from the episode, Julia thought she was giving Quentin a bad dream. A really not nice nightmare that was unfairly playing with areas she knew were going to be very difficult for him. But she meant it to last for the space of a dream. Unpleasant as hell and not something it would be okay to do to someone, but nowhere near the scope of what Marina seemed okay with condemning Quentin to.

Plus, the very first thing she does when she realizes, "I have all this knowledge and power!" is to hurt Julia with it in the way she knows will hurt her the most: casting her out, presumably taking any magical ability from her: essentially doing to Julia what Brakebills did to Marina, but apparently leaving her with the psychological pain of it. Marina just seems down with letting people suffer emotionally and whereas it doesn't make her irredeemable, it sure as hell makes her a dangerous person to allow to have any magical ability.

Remember Quentin saying to Alice last episode "did you ever burn ants with a magnifying glass?" and Alice, appropriately says "Ew, no. That's gross." That's what Marin immediately using her power to hurt Julia in some sort of "burning things out of her" way reminded me of, it's literally the first thing she does.

First off, Brakebills seems to suck hard at wiping student's memories. Marina was 3 months from graduation when she was cast out, so she had to have done something so horrible that the staff saw no choice but to remove her access to Brakebills and magic. She seems to know the inner workings of Brakebills and how the Dean would behave in the situation she set up, so I am incredibly interested to learn more about her and how she changed. Marina doesn't even seem to have anything against Quentin specifically, she just considers him collateral damage and doesn't give a shit if he dies..which doesn't make her nice exactly.

Bolding mine, because good lord, yes, how can y'all be so bad at this when apparently you have to do it pretty constantly??? Also, because it made me laugh aloud for a good thirty seconds or so grandemocha. This show apparently would run short of plots quickly if Brakebills could quit sucking hard at stuff they attempt to do.

Edited February 9, 2016 by stillshimpy

clack · February 9, 2016

Philip Dick and Afred Bester showed more wit and inventiveness when they were inventing and developing the Dream/Or Is It? Asylum trope 70 years ago. (It was already old hat when Buffy got around to deploying it).

The key to executing this ancient premise well is in the cleverness and imagination in which the 2 realities entwine with and bleed through into each other. Here, it all seemed a bit dull.

stillshimpy · February 10, 2016

Well in fairness to the episode, clack, the episode doesn't actually try to sustain the "is it a dream or is it real" pretty much at all. There isn't a lot of "is it real?" time spent in it, it's more "how is Quentin going to get out of there?"

I will admit that I would have been just as happy if they'd spent more time outside of Quentin's dream trap. I wonder if it ended up being more potent because of The Beast?

ElectricBoogaloo · February 10, 2016

I went back for a rewatch because -- I kind of like this show. From what I gathered, Marina and Jules knew that Quentin had managed to contact Penny because they were observing him when they were putting him under the spell. When they came out of it, she sent Kady to lead Penny to Quentin. The weird part here is, what would they have done if Quentin didn't have that connection with Penny and had not been able to contact him to start him on the hunt? Elliot was the one who mentioned they should get the Dean.

I think Kady was always part of Marina's plan because she needed someone to alert Dean Fogg about Quentin so that he would lower the wards, allowing her to enter Brakebills to retrieve her memories. I'm assuming that Kady is the one who put him in that closet in the first place and that she was originally supposed to be the one to find him. Quentin managing to contact Penny put a slight wrinkle in Marina's plan because she needed to be near the school once Dean Fogg rolled out the supernatural welcome mat and if Penny found Quentin before Marina could get there, then she might have missed her chance to get into the school. Once Marina found out that Penny knew that Quentin needed help was to have Kady make sure that Penny found Quentin once Marina was in position near the school.

paramitch · February 10, 2016

(Snipped for specific items)

That was one of the funniest and most unexpected call-backs of all time, as far as I'm concerned. At first I thought it was Penny doing that to Quentin and was really ticked off at Penny's character, until Penny showed up, being demonstrably Penny. I like what they're doing with that character. He makes for a good Frenemy character and I liked that he simply plunged back into Marina's psycho trap for Quentin, to help save him, even though Quentin and Penny aren't exactly born to sing a duet.

I loved the evolution of Jane Chatwin from a very two dimensional representation in the first appearances -- like a character on a page -- into someone who interacts with Quentin in an increasingly believable, more layered fashion as she helps him fight his own way out of the dream, using the story.

Great work by all the young actors though. The casting director on this project deserves huge kudos and I'm in danger of actually liking Penny, which is nothing short of miraculous.

First off, you can't say stuff like that because now ALL I WANT is for Quentin and Penny to sing a duet. Bonus points if it's "Up Where We Belong." Seriously. (Where is my darling Lorne's fictional karaoke bar when I need it?)

I agree that Jane Chatwin's appearance here was really interesting. She felt like a real person here, like someone who cares about Quentin and was interacting with him in these very believable new ways. I loved the fact that his love of the books helped to save him -- it's Quentin's superpower, and that's really charming -- just his belief, and his knowledge of Fillory. Just as mine would, of course, be quoting Eowyn or flirting with Aragorn.

Now that we've settled into the show, I absolutely love the casting and am pretty much on board for everyone. I especially love Arjun Gupta as Penny, but most of all, I just think Jason Ralph is the show's MVP and that he is absolutely killing it as Quentin. The floppy hair! The goofy klutziness! The willingness to commit to Quentin's utter geekitude! The little bits of inspired physicality! Like when he edged around the tree last episode when Penny called him out on the Taylor Swift, or the way he vamped in the doorway at Penny on the song here, and a dozen others. I think he's absolutely fantastic in the role.

I thought that Kady taking Penny to Quentin was part of Marina's plan. She needed the people at Brakebills to find Quentin and see that he was under that spell so that Dean Fogg would have to temporarily remove the wards around the school to allow that thing that started with an M enter the grounds to help remove the spell. Before Marina and Julia left for Brakebills, Marina made a comment to Kady about doing her part in this plan and mentioned Penny.

Great detail that I'd actually missed... and Kady does mention that she already knows where Quentin went to fall asleep, so it works for me because if they hadn't been impelled to find him, she would have been able to lead them to him as required anyway as part of the plan, so that Marina could gain entrance.

....why didn't they just take Quentin outside of the wards instead?

That was one of those plot resolutions where I kind of had to agree to go along with several ludicrous leaps on non-logic. Marina knew that Fogg would drop the gates entirely rather than ....have Quentin carried off campus? Huh?!?

That's a nice bit of logic and I wondered about that too, especially given The Beast's spectacular previous visit and what we know of the Dean and Eliza's previous worries about something big and bad on the horizon. However, I fanwanked while watching this that since the insects appeared to be caged within Brakebills, they had to stay there or be used there, somehow? Eh. It was kind of like the bezoar situation in "Harry Potter" -- a messy and risky solution to an urgent and rare situation. I'm okay with this kind of tenuous logic this time, but I just hope it doesn't become a constant.

Also, I agree that the episode was badly missing the scene in which Julia confronts Marina and basically yells "WTF?" at her. I did like that it all led to Marina banishing Julia, and I'm very interested to see what happens from there.

As for Marina's motivation in all this? The thing that makes the most sense to me on the show so far: unlike Julia, she had magical knowledge, she has so many memories still, but it was all taken from her and her memory wasn't wiped. I don't see Brakebills as the fair place that is necessarily in the right for kicking her out; that's just not a moral authority I am willing to confer it at this point. If the show wants me to see her as the villain, have someone explain why she was kicked out; maybe she burned puppies or summoned baby-eating demons, something that would explain the horrible thing they did to her. What evil has she done with the hedge magic she had? We were shown nothing of the sort. What evil did she announce as the plan when she got herself back? She planned to teach more magic to people. Well, I just ain't seeing her villainous ways, really. We saw how fucked up Julia was by being in a lesser situation. I just don't blame Marina for being willing to sacrifice a stranger to heal herself. Many people would say that this is a horrible, unforgivable act. Maybe it's because morality is just something that I will never understand on a more than intellectual level, but I don't believe that they wouldn't do the same. Julia had it easy, comparatively, finding a group to teach her, but now she doesn't have it anymore. It's awful, but fair.

What I liked about Marina's revelation was that it showed that she had not only been able to empathize with Julia pretty fiercely, but that she had in fact been far more violated and wronged by the school. That made her rage and risk more understandable to me. I do think what she did here was pretty dark, and I do blame her for being willing to kill a stranger just to regain her memories. However, I understood what she did and why she did it, and I'm kind of hoping she wouldn't in fact have let Quentin die inwardly (although it was a pretty close call, honestly). I thought what she did to Julia was devastating and it really shocked me... but I understood it. I think Marina's an interesting character, and I would actually like it if she is shown to be both good and bad. I've liked Kacey Rohl in the part thus far so I'd like for the character to be explored further.

So whatever Marina did or didn't do, she's not working by any of the rules of good that are recognizable to me and since we don't know her motivation yet, it's hard to say if she's justified. Quentin might be a drip, but she doesn't actually get to decide that he's so unworthy that it's okay if he's just locked in some dreamworld and not have that matter.

What made this more interesting to me in the end was the obvious continuing elitism on the part of the Brakebills folks all the way through the end, with some really nasty remarks by Eliot (who I otherwise love), calling Julia "Hedge Bitch" and basically continuing those he made last episode as well. The dividing line between the hedge witches and the Brakebills folks seems bigger than ever after this, although I did like that the Dean was pretty gentle with Julia, and also with Quentin in the end as well (I love Rick Worthy in this role so much).

What I wanted the Dean to have to address, or for Julia to address, was -- if Julia was capable of helping to cast a pretty powerful spell, Brakebills was WRONG for excluding her. And I just wanted someone to bring that up, even once.

Meanwhile, while I wasn't thrilled about Julia punishing Quentin this way, I thought it was a pretty clever (if horrible) way to make him suffer just a little of what she went through. She gave him a nightmare in which JULIA is happy and successful, off at school, and meanwhile he's left thinking his own powers were a delusion. I don't hate her if she thought it would just be a nightmare. Quentin said some awful things last time they spoke, and they were not only unkind, they were untrue.

I'm liking Penny more and more, and I am loving his traveler ability. It's almost like astral projection except I think he's able to affect the other environments he travels to at will? He really is a decent person seeing as how he immediately tried to help Q out once he woke up and called Julia out on her fucked up behavior. I did crack the hell up when he called Quentin a "racist motherfucker" for giving illusion Penny such a stereotypical accent and behavior.

I love Penny thus far, and especially love the balance to the character between total asshole and misunderstood loner. He's a nice mix of the two so far -- he's got a lot of attitude, but I like that his actions have oftentimes thus far surprised me -- he didn't hesitate to try to help Quentin here, and I liked that a lot. His 'traveler' powers are also the coolest we've seen thus far to me, along with Alice's light-bending magic abilities -- I especially love that he seems to be able to travel both physically or mentally, as required.

Plus, the very first thing she does when she realizes, "I have all this knowledge and power!" is to hurt Julia with it in the way she knows will hurt her the most: casting her out, presumably taking any magical ability from her: essentially doing to Julia what Brakebills did to Marina, but apparently leaving her with the psychological pain of it. Marina just seems down with letting people suffer emotionally and whereas it doesn't make her irredeemable, it sure as hell makes her a dangerous person to allow to have any magical ability.

Remember Quentin saying to Alice last episode "did you ever burn ants with a magnifying glass?" and Alice, appropriately says "Ew, no. That's gross." That's what Marin immediately using her power to hurt Julia in some sort of "burning things out of her" way reminded me of, it's literally the first thing she does.

I rewatched the episode and can actually see it both ways. I think what Marina does to Julia in the end is pretty terrible, and the fact that she has that kind of power (just as Brakebills does) is all wrong. But I can also almost see it as a kind of tough love, as well. Marina knows nothing will stop Julia from continuing to try to learn magic. So in a way, I felt like she might be trying to set Julia back to the beginning of the chessboard, to say, "You think magic is tough and requires tough choices? Good luck. Try it NOW." But all of this is going to be contingent on whether we see Marina again or not. I'd like her not to be totally bad, and I'd especially like it if she ended up regretting how ruthless she has been thus far. But we'll see. I was disappointed at how far she was willing to go here, because I had fun with the concept of such a young woman wielding so much power (and Brakebills being so clueless about it all).

Speaking of which: This means Marina is now a postgraduate, basically, of Brakebills, so she should be 2-3 years older than all the other magic kids. Instead, she's much younger, and looks it. It made me wonder if she had been a prodigy admitted earlier than usual or something.

What I do like about this episode is that it seems to have kicked Quentin into high gear in the right way. Jane Chatwin has been pushing him to buckle down and learn as fast as he can, and this seemed to have provided him with the clarity to simply say, "No more screwing around, I need to learn, so get out of my way." I liked his final conversation with the Dean, very much.

ETA: As far as the awesome recap, I do want to note that while Jessica Lange did kick ass on "The Name Game," she was actually dubbed when playing Patsy Cline in "Sweet Dreams."

Edited February 10, 2016 by paramitch

stillshimpy · February 10, 2016

What I liked about Marina's revelation was that it showed that she had not only been able to empathize with Julia pretty fiercely, but that she had in fact been far more violated and wronged by the school.

The thing is, we don't know what she did, paramitch.

Outside of the sorely obvious: Whoever is in charge of mindwipes there needs to have an official sit-down with HR, like....whoa. We have no idea why she was forced to leave three months prior to graduation. It is interesting to me, and again, I don't think accidental that at this point it is exclusively women who have had to fight against the power structure of Brakebills. Alice, just to get in. Julia, rejected for not having it....when she clearly does have magical abilities. The Girl Who Tried to be Prettier (oh jebus) Emily and then ....whatever the hell went down with Marina.

But Marina is exerting some kind of unpleasant force over Kady. Kady has called her a psycho and it really doesn't seem like Kady is working with Marina willingly. She does't seem to be part of a Scoobie gang, she seems to be coerced.

I know you're super fond of the actor playing Marina, but she could actually just be older than the other students and actors actually like playing villains, so I don't know. The evidence thus far doesn't point towards Marina being on the side of any angels. Her first move with Julia was to trick her and to pretend to be something she wasn't. Marina seems to be coercing Kady to do something against her will and against her character and then I was fucking appalled by what she did to Julia and not just in casting her out. That scene in the bathroom when Julia cuts herself free was disturbing because her shirt had been stripped off first. That scene when Marina's very first move upon getting back whatever knowledge was taken from her was to violate Julia in a really horrible manner. She knows precisely what has hurt Julia in the past and she does it again to the power of ten. For Tough Love to be a possibility, there has to be love present in the first place and what did Julia do wrong there?

I think Marina might turn out to be a made monster, vs. a born one but the story that Quentin has to remember seems to have been a purposeful inclusion.

The only thing Julia did that Marina could be upset about was that she tired to save Quentin. That's all she did, paramitch. That's what Marina took as a betrayal? Yeah, I can't see it both ways on that one.

But I am with team "Write Up For Mindwipe Professor!"

I do think the direct contrast to Marina is Emily, who could recognize Brakebills students. Her magical exploits got another student killed, not as a foreseeable repercussion of what she was doing, but if Marina was forced to leave, chances are awfully good whatever she did was much worse and from what we've seen of her thus far, I would say the evidence supports that. She lied to, manipulated, used and then punished Julia whose only crime in that instance was not being willing to let Quentin die for all intents and purposes. That doesn't warrant a casting out, that warrants an "I get why you did that and I'm sorry it went so far wrong. Hug it out? Also, look what we got!"

But again, it's not that I'm on team Brakebills here because there is something going on and I am looking forward to finding out whatever might have happened there.

Both Julia and Quentin have both had to meet empathy for the other face first.

Edited February 10, 2016 by stillshimpy

xaxat · February 10, 2016

First off, Brakebills seems to suck hard at wiping student's memories.

They also seem to suck at creating effective protective wards. It feels like every week someone is finding a weakness to exploit.

I like Penny.

Edited February 10, 2016 by xaxat

theatremouse · February 11, 2016

I need somebody else who hears to help me out with this episode. So, last week I mentioned I felt like I had to listen really hard just to hear the characters, even though the score seemed a totally reasonable volume.

Is my TV dying/am I losing my mind, or was part of this episode a reallly loud kind of high pitched uncomfortable sound/score between scenes? Because I still felt like the dialogue was too quiet, but damned if I would turn my TV up since the horrible whatever-it-was was nearly unbearable. But it worked with the whole "think you're crazy" torment deal going on in the spell. Totally effective sound effect.

But now I just want to make sure I'm not the only one who heard it?

paramitch · February 11, 2016

The thing is, we don't know what she did, paramitch.

Outside of the sorely obvious: Whoever is in charge of mindwipes there needs to have an official sit-down with HR, like....whoa. We have no idea why she was forced to leave three months prior to graduation. It is interesting to me, and again, I don't think accidental that at this point it is exclusively women who have had to fight against the power structure of Brakebills. Alice, just to get in. Julia, rejected for not having it....when she clearly does have magical abilities. The Girl Who Tried to be Prettier (oh jebus) Emily and then ....whatever the hell went down with Marina.

But Marina is exerting some kind of unpleasant force over Kady. Kady has called her a psycho and it really doesn't seem like Kady is working with Marina willingly. She does't seem to be part of a Scoobie gang, she seems to be coerced.

I know you're super fond of the actor playing Marina, but she could actually just be older than the other students and actors actually like playing villains, so I don't know. The evidence thus far doesn't point towards Marina being on the side of any angels. Her first move with Julia was to trick her and to pretend to be something she wasn't. Marina seems to be coercing Kady to do something against her will and against her character and then I was fucking appalled by what she did to Julia and not just in casting her out. That scene in the bathroom when Julia cuts herself free was disturbing because her shirt had been stripped off first. That scene when Marina's very first move upon getting back whatever knowledge was taken from her was to violate Julia in a really horrible manner. She knows precisely what has hurt Julia in the past and she does it again to the power of ten. For Tough Love to be a possibility, there has to be love present in the first place and what did Julia do wrong there?

I think Marina might turn out to be a made monster, vs. a born one but the story that Quentin has to remember seems to have been a purposeful inclusion.

Oh, I'm definitely not defending Marina here. I certainly agree that this was a line that the character crossed that takes her to a pretty dark place, and makes her a potential villain. But I don't lay all of the hedge witch tests at her doorstep. Pete's test was disturbing and icky (I wasn't a fan of the sexual assault scenario), but he also expressed immediately that they were specifically going for a fight-or-flight response, and it did result in Julia showing some pretty serious skills (and that she would have absolutely destroyed her potential rapist, which makes me happy). The test in the freezer I actually thought was pretty clever, and also didn't think Julia was ever in real danger there.

The thing is, I liked the big reveal about Marina early on, especially that she pretended to be a goofy scared teenager, then turned out to be the "top witch in New York." I liked the way that subverted expectations and it made me interested in her character (and as a "Hannibal" fan, I do love Kacey Rohl). I don't mind if she goes full-on villain, but if she does, I do think her revelation to Julia at least makes her more interesting and believable in her ruthlessness. I really, really hate that Brakebills' go-to move is to mindwipe people. I just think it's incredibly twisted, violating and disturbing.

What she does to Julia in the end is horrible. But again, we don't know if it's momentary or if she plans to leave her in that state forever, which would serve to somewhat mitigate just how villainous Marina ends up being. Either way, yeah, it's shitty, especially since all Julia did was try to ensure that Quentin (her best friend, even if not on the best terms at the moment) would survive.

I'm just disappointed Marina appears to be bad, versus bad-ass. I didn't mind that she was a bitch -- I do mind if she's a brat, if that makes sense. I'm also wondering what Pete will think of what she did to Julia as well (or if that will ever be addressed).

As far as the character's youth, I feel like Marina was presented as being very obviously younger, and deliberately so right away -- the kid-clothes, the pastel teenager outfits, etc. Then with the reveal, she's since been very slick and polished (and lots of black outfits of course), but she still looks several years younger to me than the other characters. It could just be a character thing (and another way Marina is playing with people's expectations) but I'd actually like it if we get an explanation for it at some point.

I wonder if Quentin's having to remember the story was a loophole necessary for the spell -- that the victim has to be given a chance to find their own way out? That would be interesting.

I need somebody else who hears to help me out with this episode. So, last week I mentioned I felt like I had to listen really hard just to hear the characters, even though the score seemed a totally reasonable volume.

Is my TV dying/am I losing my mind, or was part of this episode a reallly loud kind of high pitched uncomfortable sound/score between scenes? Because I still felt like the dialogue was too quiet, but damned if I would turn my TV up since the horrible whatever-it-was was nearly unbearable. But it worked with the whole "think you're crazy" torment deal going on in the spell. Totally effective sound effect.

But now I just want to make sure I'm not the only one who heard it?

Theatremouse, I'm not encountering this sound problem in viewing the episodes at all, and I watch On Demand as well as online. To me both have had fairly normal sound levels.

Can you check your TV's sound settings? Maybe you inadvertently set them to 'surround' or 'theater' or something weird.

grandemocha · February 11, 2016

A good choice by the actress playing Marina IMO was that last bit before she burned the progress stars off of Julia's arm, the way she delivered that line "You think Brakebills cut you off from magic? You don't know cut off" was brilliant. To me it was like she was saying to Julia "You think you felt like your life was empty and nothing was important anymore after you didn't get admitted into the school, well imagine almost graduating, getting a shoddy memory wipe done, and losing those years of magical instruction from the best of the best AND then you'll know what I went through".

I still think Marina had to have done something especially heinous to get expelled and to have her memory poorly altered, probably with a few other students involved in her year since #1 I saw other boxes of memories in that room #2 I think there was talk about the previous graduating classes being small? I absolutely got the intensity of emotion in that moment, almost as though Marina experienced what Julia did but 10x worse. The underlying tone of desperation, anger, you can really get a sense or almost reach the conclusion that Marina had to claw her way up the ladder of hedge witches after she was thrown out of Brakebills 3 months before graduation. Great line delivery on the part of Kacey Rohl!

I just can't get with the idea that Brakebills are awful because they are the establishment and the hedge witches are so cool and in the right because they are rebels, still learning magic.

I don't think the staff at Brakebills are awful, I like the actress playing Marina and I'm curious to learn more about the character, but I think she must've done something awful to get kicked out. If anything, I think the staff have mostly shown that they care about the welfare of the students..in a way? Also, the way Dean Fogg reacted when he told Quentin that Q should've told him Julia wasn't properly memory wiped, does that mean it was an unusual occurrence and hasn't happened often?

Edited February 11, 2016 by grandemocha

TiffanyNichelle · February 11, 2016

I thought Marina said that because she'd gone so far that Brakebills couldn't do a full memory wipe. Not that they did a messed up job on the memory wipe. I think it was part of her punishment for whatever she did that was so bad to get herself expelled.

I just can't get with the idea that Brakebills are awful because they are the establishment and the hedge witches are so cool and in the right because they are rebels, still learning magic.

Edited February 11, 2016 by TiffanyNichelle

ElectricBoogaloo · February 11, 2016

I just can't get with the idea that Brakebills are awful because they are the establishment and the hedge witches are so cool and in the right because they are rebels, still learning magic.

I think that the hedge witches definitely have that attitude but on the other side of the spectrum, we have Eliot bragging about being classically trained and referring to the hedge witches as desperate and sad. I can see why each group views the other negatively in a sort of witch class warfare thing, but I am on the fence about who is more in the right. I think that magic, like any skill, should be taught responsibly, especially since magicians have the power to kill or hurt other people (both intentionally and unintentionally) so it's a bit more responsibility than learning, say, how to play the piano (since bad piano playing won't actually kill anyone). But I don't think that means Brakebills is the only place that should be allowed to teach magic.

At least in the Harry Potter books, they established that there were other schools that taught magic. So far on this show, it seems the options are official magic learning at Brakebills or groups like Marina's hedge witches. And in Harry Potter, we understood that there were consequences for unauthorized magic because there was a separate magical governing body. On The Magicians, it seems that there is no consequence for doing harmful magic (like hurting others) or doing magic in front of humans. The only consequence we have been told about so far is that if you get kicked out of Brakebills, they take away your magical memories.

I'm not saying that the world of The Magicians needs a ministry of magic, just that since there don't appear to be any consequences for non-Brakebills people to teach/learn/do magic, why wouldn't people like Julia or Marina keep trying to learn through unofficial channels? But I also don't think that makes them cooler than Brakebills magicians. That's like saying someone who didn't go to Juilliard is automatically cooler than someone who did. Similarly I don't think that Brakebills is awful or the establishment just because they have rules and teachers and structure. If they just had a hundred kids running around campus in a magical anarchy, it would be a mess so I understand why a school has a schedule and a hierarchy and rules.

wayne67 · February 11, 2016

At least in the Harry Potter books, they established that there were other schools that taught magic. So far on this show, it seems the options are official magic learning at Brakebills or groups like Marina's hedge witches. And in Harry Potter, we understood that there were consequences for unauthorized magic because there was a separate magical governing body. On The Magicians, it seems that there is no consequence for doing harmful magic (like hurting others) or doing magic in front of humans. The only consequence we have been told about so far is that if you get kicked out of Brakebills, they take away your magical memories.

I'm not saying that the world of The Magicians needs a ministry of magic, just that since there don't appear to be any consequences for non-Brakebills people to teach/learn/do magic, why wouldn't people like Julia or Marina keep trying to learn through unofficial channels? But I also don't think that makes them cooler than Brakebills magicians. That's like saying someone who didn't go to Juilliard is automatically cooler than someone who did. Similarly I don't think that Brakebills is awful or the establishment just because they have rules and teachers and structure. If they just had a hundred kids running around campus in a magical anarchy, it would be a mess so I understand why a school has a schedule and a hierarchy and rules.

Yeah it would be great to get some world building info on if there's any rules about magic use in the Muggle world or not. At this point it comes across as half baked. Magicians learn magic at Brakebills or if they get kicked out or rejected they end up as Hedge Witches and ... unknown what or where they go from there.

Do classically trained/ self taught magicians have covens where they cast higher order spells? Do either side have a over reaching agenda? Global conquest? Accumulation of magic/power?

So far all I learned from this episode is that Brakebills needs a more effective method of dealing with ex students and they have shitty security. Also how does Kady keep her double agent status secret from all the telepaths at that school ? That and according to Marina post memory restoration, the hedge witches are a league behind what the Brakebills are offering in terms of magic.

zxy556575 · February 11, 2016

Do classically trained/ self taught magicians have covens where they cast higher order spells? Do either side have a over reaching agenda? Global conquest? Accumulation of magic/power?

No idea! Maybe some of this will be explained later, but currently there isn't any purpose to having magic. Excepting the instructors at Brakebill's, no one makes a living out of it. What do students do after Brakebills? Set up psychic hot lines or go into sidewalk busking? We're supposed to buy into Quentin's belief that his life had no meaning before magic and now does, but what then?

I assume we'll eventually learn why Marina was expelled but it doesn't really matter to me. All schools have rules and boarding schools more than most; I'm okay with just knowing she broke one or more of them. As for the ex-spelling part, I see it more as a kindness, if Quentin's and Julia's life-consuming freakouts are anything to go by. But again, why exactly? To lie around and create mini fireworks or bend light seem to be nothing more than parlor tricks for one's own amusement, with no value in people's lives as insurance agents or nurses. The psychics have a bit more scope for police work or family counseling.

Why is having magic so awesome and life-changing? Nothing yet has convinced me of its benefits.

Edited February 12, 2016 by lordonia

ElectricBoogaloo · February 11, 2016

Because it's super cool!

stillshimpy · February 11, 2016

I don't mind if she goes full-on villain, but if she does, I do think her revelation to Julia at least makes her more interesting and believable in her ruthlessness. I really, really hate that Brakebills' go-to move is to mindwipe people. I just think it's incredibly twisted, violating and disturbing.

That's always one of those devices in stories that is incredibly problematic, because it's inherently violative, paramitch. It's not the only thing about the Brakebills process that is more than a little bit fucked-up though. As goofy as the "On your 11th birthday, you will receive a letter from Hogwarts!" thing is (those were some nimble owls) at least there was choice involved. Brakebills magically abducts people with no warning, or their consent. Then if things don't work out, they mindwipe that same person as if it's a no-harm-done situation.

There have been a couple of science-fiction shows that used to use the technique too. TNG did when someone saw technology they weren't supposed to. I think it was kind of an interesting solution in scifi and fantasy to "but why do the mere mortals not know about space-travel-techology/magic/elves/unicorns but I really dig that the most recent generation of writers structure in how deeply unsettling and problematic that is. I actually think the TV series has done a reasonably good job with exploring that. Particularly since they couldn't actually take on the gargantuan task of removing all knowledge of Brakebills existence and her time there from Marina's mind without destroying her. Instead they just removed all knowledge acquired there which potentially more destructive. Does make the series use of a tree growing on that wall an interesting thing.

I'm not team "Yay, Brakebills!" or "Go, Hedge Witches!" but part of the reason I think Marina needs to be the architect of her own fate there is that the tale would be unbalanced otherwise. Basically the series needs to give Brakebills an actual leg to stand on when it comes to Hedge Witches, because at present they are sneeringly unpleasant about the concept for no reason other than snobbery.

Marina did present herself as younger, more innocent, but it was part of a deception. Wow, I'd somehow managed to block out that I'd seen her on Hannibal, that must be part of the reason I had shields set to "be prepared to be freaked the hell out at any moment" the whole time she was onscreen.

theatermouse I watched the most recent one from the syfy site, because I wasn't sure if my DVR was cooperating or not yet. No volume issues there and they thoughtfully caption everything in Spanish, including all swear words, which amused me. But I did check the DVR recording last night to see if there were volume issues for me....I'm not having any. It could be your TV, or it could be your provider. For instance, for ages everything on Showtime broadcast with a completely different sound quality than any other show and we'd practically deafen the household if we forgot to turn that sucker down before changing channels. So it can be channel specific too.

I'm not saying that the world of The Magicians needs a ministry of magic, just that since there don't appear to be any consequences for non-Brakebills people to teach/learn/do magic, why wouldn't people like Julia or Marina keep trying to learn through unofficial channels?

It seems like they sort of do need some kind of regulating forces, ElectricBoogaloo because the biggest problem with the Hedge Witches seems to be not fully understanding the power that they are wielding. Julia was horrified when she realized she wasn't just giving Quentin a bad night's sleep. Plus, some of the things that Brakebills has already done -- mindwipes being the most "Uh....yeah, that's not okay to do to anyone...surely you know that?" -- are problematic as hell.

Honestly, Julia's little ATM trick also was illustrative of another. Someone mentioned that "Oh, those things are always under video surveillance" but if they've got something to manipulate a machine into spitting out cash, I have to imagine they've got something that can disrupt the video feed.

It hasn't been framed as such, but there's an implied lawlessness that is made possible by having access to magic, lawlessness combined with power is potentially dangerous and destructive to more than just the individual trying to wield it.

I guess the thing that troubled me the most about Marina's action was that she's furious that she had knowledge removed from her without her consent, cutting her off from that world. Mind-tampering is hugely violative....but that's exactly what she enabled Julia to do, tamper with Quentin's mind without his consent...without giving her any idea that it was a giant wrong vs. a relatively smaller one.

Marina seems to demonstrate why Brakebills takes such a dim view of Hedge Witches, but didn't even attempt to answer why they don't have a more tiered approach to it. If not everyone can get into the Harvard for Wizards and Witches, surely there ought to be states schools, etc.

Edited February 11, 2016 by stillshimpy

Crim · February 11, 2016

Many questions asked here are very, very pertinent and answered in the books. I don't know if the show will be interested in answering them, or if the show runners have decided to provide a different, less bleak picture. Let me just say that my dislike of Brakebills is informed by the author's depiction of it as what seems to be a critique of education - of academia, I'd say - and that students being put in situations where they are unable to provide informed consent is an issue that goes way beyond their recruitment. (*)

Similarly I don't think that Brakebills is awful or the establishment just because they have rules and teachers and structure. If they just had a hundred kids running around campus in a magical anarchy, it would be a mess so I understand why a school has a schedule and a hierarchy and rules.

But Brakebills is a mess. Students don't seem to go through guidance except for classes, but they have access to dangerous magic and items, and use them badly, with awful consequences. Brakebills rejected not just Julia - and we have no idea why - but also didn't invite Alice, which might have been the right decision since she is a danger to those around her, but wait, then they accepted her... as she already had access to magic (via her family), and when her actions repeatedly led to death and dismemberment, she wasn't expelled or magically neutered nor, apparently, counseled or placed under supervision. Then she just walked out of there to be at large in an unsuspecting world? How is Brakebills the arbiter of order it pretends to be?

Yeah it would be great to get some world building info on if there's any rules about magic use in the Muggle world or not. At this point it comes across as half baked. Magicians learn magic at Brakebills or if they get kicked out or rejected they end up as Hedge Witches and ... unknown what or where they go from there.

Since this is not related to the episode, or the previous episodes, I've moved my reply to http://forums.previously.tv/topic/38488-ask-a-magician-questions-from-non-book-readers-answers-from-book-readers/

(*) ETA:

It took some time, but I managed to find this quote: something happens, with absolutely NO prior warning, and one of the students asks if it's optional because she is disturbed by it, to which the dean replies curtly: "If that bothers you, then you should have gone to beauty school." But that's the thing, no? On top of being a shit thing to say as an educator, it also implies that she did have a choice, but she had no idea, so it's a choice she never had a chance to make. Also, I don't even rate this as the most disturbing thing Brakebills forces them into; that time they can't even complain.

Edited February 12, 2016 by SilverStormm
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