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maraleia

By maraleia
in Sleepy Hollow [V]

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jenrising
jenrising
cynic
cynic

Oh, I have no doubt that Beharie wanted to leave. My issue is the laying of blame at Beharie for wanting to leave without considering why she wanted to leave. It was pretty clear two and a half years

Badsamaritan
Badsamaritan

I don't believe a word from FOX. Look how they treated Orlando Jones, by far their biggest cheerleader. And the fact that he has still been supporting Nicole tells me he knows what the fuck really hap

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netlyon2

netlyon2

In addition to missing Joe on the show, I'm going to miss Zach A on Twitter. Obviously, no one could replace OJ, but Zach was fun during live tweets. Some highlights:

- on Jenny's reaction to her new trailer: https://twitter.com/zachappelman/status/705973017671823360

- on which Sleepy Hollow monster has scared him the most: https://twitter.com/zachappelman/status/708460890962710528

- on turning into Wendijoe and slashing Pandora: https://twitter.com/zachappelman/status/708470226577465349

- on his line after saving Ichabbie from the Eternal Soldier: https://twitter.com/zachappelman/status/713533319242063872

And lastly,

- on Ichabbie in "Dawn's Early Light": https://twitter.com/zachappelman/status/716053920410370054

  • Love 5
netlyon2

netlyon2

Putting all the post-finale reporting (so far) in one spot:

TV Line:  http://tvline.com/2016/04/08/nicole-beharie-leaving-sleepy-hollow-abbie-dead-season-4-interview/

TV Line extended interview:  http://tvline.com/2016/04/08/sleepy-hollow-abbie-dies-nicole-beharie-leaving-season-4/

THR:  http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/sleepy-hollow-nicole-beharie-exits-882206

Variety:  http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/sleepy-hollow-nicole-beharie-abbie-dead-killed-1201749574/

 

 

I see that Orlando is biting his tongue and keeping it professional:

.@NikkiBeharie is 1 of the most phenomenal talents I've ever had the pleasure to work with. Cannot wait to see what she does next.

 

thuganomics85

thuganomics85

Heh, even The AV Club; who tends to enjoy this show; gave this sucker a D.  I think the only reason it was even that high is because usually giving anything a F these days means it's bad, but bad in such an insane way that you almost have to watch it.  The finale didn't even live up to that.  But my favorite part what this from the review about Abbie's death:

 

 

Really, it betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of who this story is really about. Apparently the writers considered Ichabod to be the lead, and Abbie an important but not necessarily vital element. Sure, there’s some hand-waving about a potential fourth season plot that has Ichabod tracking down someone who inherits Abbie’s job as Witness—taking on her soul, which actually sounds a little creepy if you think about it. But Nicole Beharie won’t be around for that, which is, quite frankly, absurd. I’m not sure if there were behind-the-scenes issues we aren’t privy to, but Beharie’s a critical element of the series. Tom Mison is a fine actor, but without the two of them together, what’s the damn point?

That's really is my biggest issue when all is said and done.  It just felt like that the episode showed that TPTB don't consider Ichabod and Abbie the co-leads, but that Ichabod is the lead and everyone else is expendable.  And that's bullshit.  I enjoy Ichabod and Tom Mison is fantastic, but Abbie is just as significant.  Arguably even more at times.  The whole thing just pisses me off.

  • Love 16
Enero

Enero

I know Orlando loves to troll, but he knows how invested viewers were in Abbie (and Nicole) and how screwed they must be feeling right now.  So I'm glad he's not acting goofy about it and just wishes Nicole well.

Agreed. He's wisely not fanning the flames. And at the end of the day he's gotta eat. I'm sure he don't want to stir the pot too much.

  • Love 4
CocoaGoddess

CocoaGoddess

I honestly feel gutted. They tried to take away every ounce of dignity both Nikki and Abbie had, and I honestly feel as if they're punishing us for not accepting their struggle witch narrative. The audience is Pandora and Fox/Sleepy Showrunners is the vengeful, dickhead abusive husband. 

 

I ranted about this for a good hour on Twitter, but it just occurred to me that the only thing Fox cares about is the fact that this show has been the number 1 trending topic going on three hours now. I won't give them another second of my attention.

 

They could throw money at Nicole to bring her back for season 4 and I still wouldn't come back, because the trust is broken forever and they can never earn it back. How many times have they sacrificed Abbie's character? They just managed to make it stick this time, and I'm certain these assholes loved every second of it. I'm sure Goffman is somewhere twirling his mustache maniacally.

 

Fool me once ....

  • Love 3
netlyon2

netlyon2

(edited)

That's really is my biggest issue when all is said and done.  It just felt like that the episode showed that TPTB don't consider Ichabod and Abbie the co-leads, but that Ichabod is the lead and everyone else is expendable.  And that's bullshit.  I enjoy Ichabod and Tom Mison is fantastic, but Abbie is just as significant.  Arguably even more at times.  The whole thing just pisses me off.

What's really sad to me is that they just don't get it.  I started watching this show because you and other posters at TWOP lauded it as a show with a black female lead who was well-developed and allowed to have complex relationships with other characters of color.  That's why I tuned in--and that's what I got for a season or so.  For me, Ichabod was a nice surprise and a character that I grew to love, but Abbie was the draw and the heart.  Man, this sucks so much.

 

Side note:  This just occurred to me--if NB's exit was determined back in the fall, I wonder how bittersweet it was for her to get a shout-out from Viola Davis at the Emmy's.  Oops, just made myself even sadder.

 

ETA:  @phoenics

How could they be so stupid when Ichabod led all of S2 with Abbie sidelined and the show TANKED in ratings?!?! Idiots!

IKR!  I'm gleefully imagining a scene where Danny says, "Abbie Mills deserves better" and Nicole punches him in his fucking face (sorry, Lance, you seem like a nice guy).  Sharp jab right to the nose.  (I swear I'm not a violent person!)

Edited by netlyon2
  • Love 4
phoenics

phoenics

Heh, even The AV Club; who tends to enjoy this show; gave this sucker a D.  I think the only reason it was even that high is because usually giving anything a F these days means it's bad, but bad in such an insane way that you almost have to watch it.  The finale didn't even live up to that.  But my favorite part what this from the review about Abbie's death:

 

That's really is my biggest issue when all is said and done.  It just felt like that the episode showed that TPTB don't consider Ichabod and Abbie the co-leads, but that Ichabod is the lead and everyone else is expendable.  And that's bullshit.  I enjoy Ichabod and Tom Mison is fantastic, but Abbie is just as significant.  Arguably even more at times.  The whole thing just pisses me off.

How could they be so stupid when Ichabod led all of S2 with Abbie sidelined and the show TANKED in ratings?!?! Idiots!

Ugh I'm so mad! WHY WON'T THESE PILLS KICK IN AND KNOCK ME OUT?!?!?!

  • Love 3
catrox14

catrox14

Looks like Nicole Beharie left because SHE wanted too, not the show or FOX....

 

SH Post Mortem

 

Interesting - the mid-season finale was supposed to be her actual "exit".

 

 

Respectfully, even if she left of her own accord, they fucked Abbie over last season so who could blame her. And really who knows what the truth is? 

 

If she was supposed to leave in the mid-season finale, why didn't they just do it then? Because they wanted to bait the Ichabbie shippers and Abbie fans into sticking around for the ratings to get a renewal and make it a new show without Abbie in s4.  Assholes.

  • Love 18
phoenics

phoenics

It's not like they gave Nicole much choice.

Remember how disrespectful Fox PR and Sleepy Hollow PR were to Nicole for 2 straight years? And then they pretend tried to clean it up for the last couple of S2 episodes? But then left Nicole off the S2 DVD Commentary? And then started S3 with promotion featuring SEXY BETSY ROSS?!!?

No wonder she left.

I guess she had less patience for mistreatment than we did. I don't blame her for leaving. What a horrible working environment for 2 years. I wonder if she was hoping the show was done after S2 and then when they started with the S3 nonsense promotiong Shannon and Nikki, she was just like I'm done with this.

There are better shows to be on. Black producers are proving that they can produce HITS and the black leads on those shows RUN their ish. I hope NB has something amazing lined up.

I hope TM has something amazing lined up. I guess all I can hope for is a TM/NB reunion a la Tut (featuring the leads from Twisted that got screwed by their show too).

  • Love 7
Enigma X

Enigma X

Looks like Nicole Beharie left because SHE wanted too, not the show or FOX....

 

SH Post Mortem

 

Interesting - the mid-season finale was supposed to be her actual "exit".

Still done with this show.

 

I will say, if Nicole left on her own accord, I will not blame her, the show, or the network for that (unless it was some unfair salary disagreement). The chemistry (platonic or hopefully romantic) between Beharie and Mison is what kept me watching this show. It is now dead.

  • Love 4
Rina99

Rina99

If she was supposed to leave in the mid-season finale, why didn't they just do it then? Because they wanted to bait the Ichabbie shippers and Abbie fans into sticking around for the ratings to get a renewal and make it a new show without Abbie in s4.  Assholes.

 

Or, they were hoping that she would change her mind.  If the truth is that Nicole was just done and wanted out, then the writers don't really have much choice but to shift to Ichabod as the primary lead in the narrative, even if that's not how it started, if they want to continue on with a Season 4. 

 

As a non-shipper, I'm simply sad that I won't get to watch them on screen together anymore as Ichabod and Abbie.  It wasn't perfect, but this season was much improved from last year as far as their interactions, and they were truly adorable and hilarious together.

  • Love 2
Sparkling Beth

Sparkling Beth

The thing is, the writers can't possibly blame anyone but themselves for this.  They had access to the Internet so they know that fans have been screaming for two years about the way Nicole was marginalized in the show.  Even tonight, when Abbie allowed herself to be sucked into the box, I thought, "Why is it always Abbie who has to sacrifice herself for the greater good?"  That was when I was still under the delusion that Crane would find a way to get her back before the end of the show. 

 

Damn it all to hell.  This show was about Abbie and Ichabod.  Ichabod and Abbie.  Equals.  No one watching wanted anything different.  The writers screwed us--and Nicole--over big time in season two when they seemed to be trying to replace Abbie with Katrina, and while it got better this year, there was still the implication that Abbie wasn't as necessary to the situation as Crane.  The viewers have never accepted that premise and that's why we're all so furious and upset tonight.

 

Get the torches and pitchforks!

  • Love 13
catrox14

catrox14

 

Or, they were hoping that she would change her mind.  If the truth is that Nicole was just done and wanted out, then the writers don't really have much choice but to shift to Ichabod as the primary lead in the narrative, even if that's not how it started, if they want to continue on with a Season 4.

 

And nothing I said is contrary to that. 

 

The writers had a choice to write her exit in a way that does not diminish Abbie to a helpful guide to Ichabod when she was his EQUAL. She could have stayed an equal until the bitter end. I never wanted to hear the fucking words of " You took Crane as far as you could" That's the insult to this viewer.

  • Love 12
Rina99

Rina99

And nothing I said is contrary to that. 

 

The writers had a choice to write her exit in a way that does not diminish Abbie to a helpful guide to Ichabod when she was his EQUAL. She could have stayed an equal until the bitter end. I never wanted to hear the fucking words of " You took Crane as far as you could" That's the insult to this viewer.

 

Well, I'm not saying that they did it WELL, but I get the reasoning.  IMO most of the missteps from this season came from some very uneven writing, and the lack of writers who really *got* this genre of show.  However, the impact of how it came across, regardless of intent, is very real to many, and I hope that there is some real care taken in looking at the reactions of the fan base and, if there is a Season 4, I hope that the writers don't trample all over Abbie's memory and what she meant to the show in order to prop some new character as a "super" witness.

vanarnd1

vanarnd1

And nothing I said is contrary to that. 

 

The writers had a choice to write her exit in a way that does not diminish Abbie to a helpful guide to Ichabod when she was his EQUAL. She could have stayed an equal until the bitter end. I never wanted to hear the fucking words of " You took Crane as far as you could" That's the insult to this viewer.

Yeah from that dialogue and the CC interview,  I think there still was a gap between how important TPTB thought of Abbie and how the fans felt about her. The only way they could think of to have Abbie exit was to frame it as her assisting Crane and not her own journey. It is the same underlying problem as Season 2 just packaged differently.

 

We will never find out, but I will always be curious about how the behind the scenes stuff played out. Maybe Nicole just wanted to move on no matter what, but I certainly didn't get the impression from the writing in the first half of the season that CC was trying to appease her.  And they had a lot of notice she was leaving so they could have written her out in many different ways. even leave the door open for Nicole to return, but went with the sacrificing trope for the 50th time. It is disappointing on so many levels.

  • Love 6
jhlipton

jhlipton

(edited)

What can you do, when one of the leads wants to leave the show?

 

You don't have Abbie tell Crane that her job was to carry him forward, and now her job is done.  It was never her job to carry him -- she's not a damn pack mule.  Have her say that she's sorry she has to leave him; that she has to do this because her job, their job, is to save the world. 

One small change would make a huge difference. 

 

Campbell is an ass, part 1:

"She wasn’t just someone who brought him along."

Then why have her say so?

 

"We didn’t get much of the Mills sisters’ relationship in the finale. Was there any reason for that?"

"There’s always more we would have liked to have done."

Busty Ross, Danny, and The Organization In Every Damn Show were more important.

 

Part 2:

"There’s certainly the possibility, given our really good relationship with Nicole and how much she’s help build us these past three seasons, that reflections of her will be around and that the idea of her will be around"

What does this even mean?  Bolded part mine to show that he's a lying ass.

 

"[W]ere there [scenes] any you or [episode writer] M. Raven Metzner wanted to squeeze in but didn’t have time for?"

"There was just no real time."

See above.

 

"Then her job was done, and she did what all Witnesses apparently do, which is to pass the essence of their soul on through the bloodline."

If you''re going to make her Buffy, give her the respect of Sarah Mitchel Geller, asshole.

Edited by jhlipton
  • Love 13
BestestAuntEver

BestestAuntEver

ITA, that Abbie was made subservient and secondary in her own damn story as a witness.

Part 2:

"There’s certainly the possibility, given our really good relationship with Nicole and how much she’s help build us these past three seasons, that reflections of her will be around and that the idea of her will be around"

What does this even mean? Bolded part mine to show that he's a lying ass.

It means, please watch the show. We are willing to bait you. Please watch the show. We may show occasional pictures or flashbacks of Abbie. Please watch the show. If we are lucky, NB will come do a scene. Please. Watch. The. Show!

I'm adding CC and his crew to Goffman and other writers/producers that I will never watch a show they are involved in, in any fucking way ever again.

  • Love 8
jhlipton

jhlipton

I just had a thought...  If the show-runners had wanted to kill Abbie at mid-season, they had a couple of months to figure out how to do that, so that Abbie would die in the Catacombs, or shortly after being rescued.  I think the furor over the possibility that they were going to do another extended Purgatory scenario made them realize that they wouldn't get to the end of the season if they did that.

  • Love 4
blixie

blixie

 

What can you do, when one of the leads wants to leave the show?

 

She wanted to leave the show because they treated both her and her character like shit/constant disrespect, and they wrote her death as magical sacrificing negro for her white male partner who she was  ultimately in service to. You could NOT do that, you could really try not do that.

  • Love 14
Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

(edited)

She wanted to leave the show because they treated both her and her character like shit/constant disrespect, and they wrote her death as magical sacrificing negro for her white male partner who she was ultimately in service to. You could NOT do that, you could really try not do that.

QFT

I really do think this comes down to the studio/network/producers had no idea what made SH work. The show was an X-Files redux in the sense that it was the partnership/chemistry between the TWO leads that made the show work. Instead (from what I can see) the Network/Studio/Producers thought theythey had a show about a Fish Out of Water and, how he was the real lead and just needed a good supporting cast (this happens a lot in TV).

My opinion is that NB either wanted out or wanted better treatment and was forced out. Both are quite possible in this type of situation. NB goes in and demands equal treatment or she's walking and the EPs say bu-bye because they don't value her as someone necessary to the show...it's Crane's story afterall.

I'm just waiting for all the juicy gossip to leak, we'll have to wait for a couple of years post series finale but it'll come out eventually.

Edited by Morrigan2575
  • Love 7
Free

Free

I just had a thought...  If the show-runners had wanted to kill Abbie at mid-season, they had a couple of months to figure out how to do that, so that Abbie would die in the Catacombs, or shortly after being rescued.  I think the furor over the possibility that they were going to do another extended Purgatory scenario made them realize that they wouldn't get to the end of the season if they did that.

 

I thought so too, it seemed like they were itching to get rid of her for the last 2 or so seasons and tried to replace her with Katrina, Betsy, Sophie, etc.

  • Love 3
cynic

cynic

I just had a thought...  If the show-runners had wanted to kill Abbie at mid-season, they had a couple of months to figure out how to do that, so that Abbie would die in the Catacombs, or shortly after being rescued.  I think the furor over the possibility that they were going to do another extended Purgatory scenario made them realize that they wouldn't get to the end of the season if they did that.

If she was supposed to die mid-season, but then the show changed course, it would explain why the writing felt so muddled and rushed. 

catrox14

catrox14

If she was supposed to die mid-season, but then the show changed course, it would explain why the writing felt so muddled and rushed. 

 

If they were going to kill her mid-season....then they knew at least 8 to 10 episodes ahead of the finale she was leaving. Seems like enough time to write few lines of dialogue that left her as an equal partner to Ichabod in life and death. They could have found some stupid way to find a New Witness for Ichabod or just send Ichabod off on his new adventure in Not!X-SPNFILES. Remove his status as a Witness too. Let Abbie die a hero, an equal and her own soul intact.  Man, I'm still so salty about this.

  • Love 4
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