S03.E03: XXI

[Bort]

Flint pushes Silver to the limit while stranded at sea; Rackham seizes the reins as Nassau readies to repel an invasion and Max gets her house in order; Vane faces defeat and must make a difficult choice.

[WatchrTina]

Ooooooh. that was GOOD.

 

This shows just gets better and better.

[Neurochick]

Ooooooh. that was GOOD.

 

This shows just gets better and better.

 

 

I agree.  Silver telling Flint that he stole from him; Flint sitting stock still and then just turning his head, Silver going for the harpoon, because he just knows he's fucked....and when Silver said, "without these men, all I am is an invalid."  Damn, I've watched three times today and that scene slays me every time...Luke Arnold is killing it.  Silver was right, when they're partners, there's nothing they can't do, but when they're at each others throats, everybody suffers.  Kind of like when your parents are fighting and the kids are all upset.  

 

But who are those men on that island?  When I watched it the second time, I realized the man had a telescope (?) or whatever that was.  And I was like, wait a minute, where are they?  Actually, when I first saw them I thought, "Fuck, why are the Unsullied on this show?" (Game of Thrones reference)

[Tabasco Cat]

My favorite episode of maybe the entire series so far.

But who are those men on that island?  When I watched it the second time, I realized the man had a telescope (?) or whatever that was.  And I was like, wait a minute, where are they?  Actually, when I first saw them I thought, "Fuck, why are the Unsullied on this show?" (Game of Thrones reference)

 

I think they're natives of the unfriendly type. The spyglass, one in the background wearing a tri-corner hat. Spoils of war or things they've taken from other crews that were unfortunate enough to land on their island.

[ulkis]

It's getting a little "perils of Pauline" at this point. They're in a storm! Then they get stranded! Now they've landed on an island with men who look like they want to start a fight! I'm not complaining per se, it's just funny. But given all that, definitely don't blame the other pirates for turning over their weapons. Which, nice call by Eleanor to send Hornigold.

At this point, I'm starting to think Max is just trying to dump Bonny gently, heh. So far every episode it's been, "our paths are going to separate!" Especially since Bonny is definitely not the type to worry about whether they're going to break up before they actually break up, so it just seems like a weak excuse, or at least, it's more about Max worrying about having to break up with Bonny than her actually worried about Bonny's feeling.

I was kinda disappointed that Flint catching the shark was just to get some food. In the promos it seemed like he was having some sort of Captain Ahab moment. It was kinda funny though watching him munch so heartily on the shark.

It was freaky how big that whale was. I know it was just CGI but I didn't realize how big the whale actually was supposed to be until they actually got next to it.

Also kinda surprised Flint wasn't like, "yeah I figured" when Silver told him about cheating him out of the Urca gold. Maybe he just wanted to hear him say it.

Well, jeez, if Teach had stayed with with one of his wives for longer than a year maybe he would have managed to father a son by one of them. Or maybe he was married to them all at the same time, heh. And I don't even like Rackham that much but it seems Teach is being a bit over aggressive when it comes to him.

Edited February 7, 2016 by ulkis

[Neurochick]

Also kinda surprised Flint wasn't like, "yeah I figured" when Silver told him about cheating him out of the Urca gold. Maybe he just wanted to hear him say it.

 

 

I wondered about that too.  Then I realized that Flint thinks himself to be above the crew.  He probably thought Silver was just an annoying little shit, cunning but not smart enough to fool HIM.  

 

I wonder about those natives on the island.  The camera lingered on the spyglass a long time.  Let's not have this show turn into "Jungle Goddess."  I mean the "unfriendly natives" trope has been done to death.

 

Also the camera lingered on that man's face and I wondered if we were supposed to remember him.  

[WatchrTina]

 

At this point, I'm starting to think Max is just trying to dump Bonny gently,

It's funny, some people were snarking on Max on Twitter too but that scene between Max and Anne was the first time I thought they actually made that relationship look real to me.  Until now I've always assumed Max was playing Anne.   And I remain open to that possibility.  But maybe, just maybe, she actually loves Anne.

 

I was a bit surprised to see Flint up on deck in a hammock eating shark sushi.  He has a very nice cabin below, with a comfortable bed.  I found it bit odd that he was hanging out on deck.  But that's nit picking.

 

Okay, somebody with better anthropological credentials than me is going to have to explain the natives we saw in the final scene.  Those didn't look like any depictions of 18th century native Americans that I'm familiar with but maybe my notions are all based on movie depictions of plains Indians.  Is that what native Americans of the Florida / Central America / Caribbean area looked like?

Edited February 7, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Tabasco Cat]

Max needs to depart from this show; she stopped being interesting about halfway through last season.

 

The inhabitants of that island don't look anything at all like the native Americans of Florida or the Caribbean. Perhaps survivors from the wreck of a slave ship?

[Neurochick]

I loved this episode because I love the Flint/Silver relationship.  Their relationship has gone through so many twists and turns since episode 101.  

 

I think Flint knew Silver was shady, but he didn't realize he was also smart, smarter than him.  I think Flint, probably because he had a formal education, sees himself smarter than his crew, most of the men probably can't read and write.  Billy was right when he told Silver the only way Flint would listen to him is if Flint thought they were equals and Silver knew that if he told Flint about the gold, Flint would either respect him or kill him.  It's such a cool scene because Silver is really talking to Flint's back, and it's not until Flint turns his head that Silver goes for the harpoon, knowing that he might have to defend himself.  

 

I think Flint "got it" when Silver told him why he gave up his claim to the gold, that without the men all he is, is an invalid.  That line broke my heart, because I got what Silver was saying, especially for that time.  I mean even today people with disabilities are treated, by a lot of people, like they are not "complete" people, that they don't have the same feelings and desires as non disabled people, and are sometimes treated like they don't exist.  I'm sure that in the 18th century it was a million times worse.

 

I was a bit surprised to see Flint up on deck in a hammock eating shark sushi.  He has a very nice cabin below, with a comfortable bed.  I found it bit odd that he was hanging out on deck.  But that's nit picking.

 

I think Flint was there because that's where he ended up, he was probably too exhausted to take another step, fishing took everything out of him; just like Silver, in that same scene was lying on the floor, Silver probably couldn't even get up into the hammock.

 

The inhabitants of that island don't look anything at all like the native Americans of Florida or the Caribbean. Perhaps survivors from the wreck of a slave ship?

 

When I first saw them I was like, "where are they?" because those men looked like they could be from an African country.  Then I wondered if they either came off a slave ship, overtook a slave ship and ended up on that island, or were slaves on an island and overtook their "masters."  I wouldn't be surprised if they're not what we think they are.  I thought it was interesting that one man had a spyglass and that the camera lingered on it and then lingered on the man's face.  

[nodorothyparker]

The scene in the boat was magnificent and should hopefully lay to rest two seasons' worth of complaints about John Silver not being up to a particular line in Treasure Island

that Silver was the only man Flint ever feared.  You can read feared any number of ways there, and if you read it as in feared and respected as his equal this scene absolutely nailed that.

 I loved that even knowing where they end up in the original story they played it as if you weren't quite sure watching them in that moment whether Flint might turn and try to murder Silver or if Silver might finally have to harpoon him in the back.  It was clear Silver didn't quite know either.  I'll give Toby Stephens full credit here because it has to be tough doing most of a scene with your back to the camera and still conveying so much of Flint working through his rage and processing just how badly he'd underestimated Silver all along.

 

The scene also worked to finally answer the question of why Silver stuck around and told him the "truth" about the Urca gold in the first place.  Without the men and his place with them, he's an invalid in a time when most disabled people were objects of pity and scorn.  There's probably also the simple practicality that as a new amputee he would have had a hard time making a getaway with any amount of the gold without stronger people simply taking it, but that's ultimately what it boiled down to.  The gold is less important to him than having a place in the world and you could see that Flint understood that.

 

The pirates on the beach continue to be pirates thinking of their own necks first.  Imagine that.  I also liked the impending sense of doom throughout this episode rolling off Woodes and Co. that they need to wrap this up quickly before the Spanish come bearing down on them over the lost Urca gold.  I've been waiting to see if that shoe would drop.

Edited February 7, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[ulkis]

It's funny, some people were snarking on Max on Twitter too but that scene between Max and Anne was the first time I thought they actually made that relationship look real to me. Until now I've always assumed Max was playing Anne. And I remain open to that possibility. But maybe, just maybe, she actually loves Anne.

I was a bit surprised to see Flint up on deck in a hammock eating shark sushi. He has a very nice cabin below, with a comfortable bed. I found it bit odd that he was hanging out on deck. But that's nit picking.

Okay, somebody with better anthropological credentials than me is going to have to explain the natives we saw in the final scene. Those didn't look like any depictions of 18th century native Americans that I'm familiar with but maybe my notions are all based on movie depictions of plains Indians. Is that what native Americans of the Florida / Central America / Caribbean area looked like?

I think at this point, it probably smells rank as hell anywhere below deck on the ship, and probably on the deck as well (and maybe feels claustrophobic down there to boot). Or maybe Flint was just using some guy's hammock.

Re: Anne and Max, I don't necessarily think Max doesn't care about Anne, it's just funny how she's all "we're gonna break up!! Let's just do it now!!!" every episode.

Edited February 7, 2016 by ulkis

[Ankai]

The pirates on the beach continue to be pirates thinking of their own necks first.  Imagine that.  I also liked the impending sense of doom throughout this episode rolling off Woodes and Co. that they need to wrap this up quickly before the Spanish come bearing down on them over the lost Urca gold.  I've been waiting to see if that shoe would drop.

That was a nice little twist: I was wondering whether the Spanish would get involved at some point. At the same time, I am not sure how that would work. If Rogers fails to pacify Nassau in time, then the Spanish will come with 1500 men to attack both the pirates AND Rogers? Did I hear that correctly? Wouldn't the pirates plus Rogers be 1700 men? Men with no illusions about the possibility of negotiation? And the Spanish would have only two more ships than Rogers? Sure, the pirates and Rogers may not be able to put up a united front, but I would not imagine that the Spanish would be able to actually get the gold back with that plan. At most, they would just destroy the town and the gold will get buried under rubble.

[Neurochick]

I think the Spanish told Rogers that if he failed to secure Nassau and get their gold, or what was left of it, they were going to level Nassau and Rogers would basically be on their shit list, i.e. he'd never get any money from them again.  Also, Nassau would be a Spanish territory, instead of British.   To me I read it as, Rogers wants to be governor so badly he's borrowed money from the mob.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Neurochick

[nodorothyparker]

That was the impression I got too.  I know from reading other histories of this time period that if you loaned someone money, as the Spanish have apparently done here in a fairly sizable amount, and you failed to live up to the terms of the loan that was usually a one-way ticket to financial ruin and debtor's prison.  That is if they don't just come and cannonball your ass off the island you apparently want very badly to be governor of.

 

I did notice from what Woodes said that it's now common belief that somebody on Nassau has the Urca gold.  So the Spanish are probably betting that unless the pirates have been unusually efficient at shipping it out elsewhere it's still likely to be sitting on the island and thus retrievable.

[peacefrog]

I have to give credit to the makeup people for this episode. They made Silver's face gaunt. In one scene even Flint looked gaunt, then he was back to normal the rest of the time.

So why is Flint so torn up about Amanda like she was the love of his life? Guilt? I always got the impression from him that he just tolerated her because she knew about his relationship with Thomas. He sort of trusted her but Thomas was the love of his life. I never got he was interested in her other than her connection to Thomas.

[Ankai]

Maybe he still holds out hope that Thomas is alive, whereas there is no ambiguity with Amanda. It is not so much love as it is guilt. 

I think the Spanish told Rogers that if he failed to secure Nassau and get their gold, or what was left of it, they were going to level Nassau and Rogers would basically be on their shit list, i.e. they'd never get any money from them again.  Also, Nassau would be a Spanish territory, instead of British.   To me I read it as, Rogers wants to be governor so badly he's borrowed money from the mob.

I guess that that makes sense. So, they do not plan to attack so much as destroy, even worse than in last year's finale. If they don't get the gold they will make sure that none of the people currently on Nassau will get it either, because they will be all dead. But, say Rodgers fails to take control in time. Does he have a plan B? I mean, he has his eight ships and his 700 men. If he gets branded no better than a pirate, then what is stopping him from switching sides and leading the counterattack himself?

 

On the subject of transferring the gold, is that a known thing on the island? The triumvirate had only recently agreed to start doing it in secret, but now with Rodgers right there, would it be stopped? And what about if someone on the island finds out about the Spaniards?

[WatchrTina]

 

So why is Flint so torn up about Amanda like she was the love of his life? Guilt? I always got the impression from him that he just tolerated her because she knew about his relationship with Thomas. He sort of trusted her but Thomas was the love of his life. I never got he was interested in her other than her connection to Thomas.

Well, we saw the two of them having sex in season one so they were lovers after Thomas' death.  My take is that they had a true Ménage à trios -- Miranda really loved her husband and wanted him to be happy and so she loved Flint because he made her husband happy.  I think Thomas loved them both (Miranda and Flint) and I think Flint and Miranda loved each other too, though their love was born out of shared grief.  Flint and Miranda were in a close relationship there on the island for a long time.  It doesn't surprise me that her death, coupled with the end of all of Thomas' hopes for Nassau, would be enough to push him over the edge.  

 

ETA: Changed Mrs. Barlow's name to Miranda (thanks nodorothyparker)

Though we could just agree to call her Melissa Louisa Amanda Miranda Cynthia Jane Barlow :)

Edited February 9, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Tabasco Cat]

I did notice from what Woodes said that it's now common belief that somebody on Nassau has the Urca gold.  So the Spanish are probably betting that unless the pirates have been unusually efficient at shipping it out elsewhere it's still likely to be sitting on the island and thus retrievable.

 

Mostly for convenience of the writers, I think. Word would have had to have gotten out. NOT bringing the Urca gold to your home base would seem to be the smart thing to do. Oh! We'll take it back to Nassau, world-reknown pirate hangout, no one will ever think of looking for it there! Plus there are any number of better places to hide it between the site of the Urca shipwreck and Nassau.

 

Were Ann and Max sitting in the treasure room with that scale? Is all the gold gone, having been exchanged for black pearls (or whatever)?

[attica]

Shark Week! Whee!

 

I'm finding this season's episodes fly right by. The black credit card comes up and I'm all: what, that's it? Has it been an hour already?

[nodorothyparker]

IMBD lists the character as Miranda, for whatever that's worth, although the way they say it I could see hearing it either way.

 

It's been hard to get a precise read on the James-Thomas-Miranda relationship because so much of it is colored by their grief over how they were separated and then losing him forever.  It clearly was a three-way thing and they did all seem to love each other.  So while it does come off as the real passion being between James and Thomas with Miranda almost being the third wheel, it's impossible to know for certain if that was truly the case or whether it's romanticized because he's gone and James and Miranda were left to mostly go through the motions.    Either way, they've been together for years as confidants and at least occasional lovers.  Now in losing her in the same very brief window of time his old friend Ashe betrayed him he's lost his last links to who he was before James Flint.  His head's not a very good place.

[Neurochick]

I have to give credit to the makeup people for this episode. They made Silver's face gaunt. In one scene even Flint looked gaunt, then he was back to normal the rest of the time.

So why is Flint so torn up about Amanda like she was the love of his life? Guilt? I always got the impression from him that he just tolerated her because she knew about his relationship with Thomas. He sort of trusted her but Thomas was the love of his life. I never got he was interested in her other than her connection to Thomas.

 

I believe her name was Miranda, that's why I use closed captioning.  I think that though Flint was in love with Thomas; their relationship was brief.  Flint was with Miranda longer than he was with Thomas.  Miranda was his best friend, she loved him but knew he loved Thomas, she loved them both.  Flint and Miranda were more partners than lovers, that's why Miranda's murder hit Flint so hard, he's lost his partner, someone he considered his equal.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Neurochick

[tennisgurl]

Land Shark! 

 

Another really gripping episode. I am always impressed by how they can make the political stuff just as exciting as Flint and Silver fighting a shark. Speaking of which, Flint and Silver find mutual respect through the hunting and killing of a shark! That is just great stuff. Not many shows can do that, but by God this show can, so it did. 

 

I am guessing the people on the island are survivors from a wrecked slave ship, or they took over a slave ship and landed on an island. If its not one thing its another for our intrepid crew of pirates! 

 

I think Max does care about Anne, but I think they are kind of a relationship of convenience. She is already looking to get out without a lot of fuss, but Anne just will not let go without a fight!  Personally, while I like Anne and Max and their relationship, I am looking forward to Max and Silver meeting up again. I wonder what she would make of the newer, more mature, one legged Silver? 

[CatMack]

I've always found it a bit odd how difficult people find it interpreting the Flint/Mirana/Thomas relationship.  As a bi woman with a friends group that's like 90% polyamorous (they all date multiple people, often each other, and everyone is cool with it) it doesn't seem that complicated to me.  Flint can be sexually and/or romantically attracted to both Miranda and Thomas at the same time.  Sure there can be nuances to that - he might love them for different reasons, in different ways, get different things from the relationships, etc - but it's entirely a thing that happens in real life to love more than one gender, more than one person.  And I think that's why Flint was so confused - he loved them both but Miranda's death has hit him harder and he couldn't comprehend why.  Imagine loving and losing too people but feeling like one death meant more than the other - there could be some pretty massive guilt involved.  He needed the dreams/hallucinations to delve into his own psyche and get a grip on it.  It wasn't about loving her more or anything like that, it was that she played a bigger part in making him who he is.  I didn't take her "I was mother" line to mean she literally had a maternal relationship with him, but that she guided him and helped him through so much change and growth that she helped mold him, she helped create Captain Flint, and that support is now gone.  He didn't just lose a friend or lover this time, he also lost his mentor, in a way.  

 

I love Max so much.  She's grown so much since season 1.  In season 1 her storyline was...I'll be generous and say not my favorite.  She felt less like a real person than any of the other characters, more like a pawn I could see the writers moving her around.  I don't feel that anymore.  She feels like such a complex, tragic figure.  Her entire life has been surviving in a world where no one wants her.  She's a woman, she's black, she's a bastard - she just doesn't have anything going for her by the standards of the society she lives in.  But she's smart, she knows how to play the long game, and she's managed to eek out some small place for herself.  But she doesn't trust it.  She's never had anything permanent, why would that change now?  I don't know how Max feels about Anne, and I don't think Max does either.  I think Max really did love Eleanor, and that just turned out spectacularly awful for her, so I don't think she's really letting herself think about relationships like that again.  In her mind people don't stay, they don't chose her, not when it really matters, so breaking up with Anne now on her terms removes the opportunity for Anne to hurt her down the road.  It gets to be her choice this time, and I don't think Max has gotten a lot of choice in her life thus far.  She's desperate to maintain as much control as she can, now that she finally has some.

 

I find myself far more interested in Woodes Rogers than Blackbeard, as far as new characters go.  Blackbeard just seems like a cranky grandpa who complains about kids these days.  Rogers is more of a wild card.  He seems so far like a relatively honorable man, compared to the other British men we've encountered, but we know he has a past that may or may not include him doing bad shit.  He's definitely an antagonist to our protagonists, but antagonists aren't necessarily villains, and so far Rogers doesn't seem like a villain.  I do know some of his real life history, but it doesn't really make me feel like I know where they're going with him.  These writers aren't afraid to play loose with history.  

 

I think right now Eleanor is helping him because she's trying to survive, but I think that allegiance will end up being fairly permanent.  Because if you think about it, Rogers succeeding is her best chance at this point.  Her position of power was always precarious, and it was only possible in the first place because of her father's position.  Her own determination, intelligence, and moxy played a huge part, obviously, but it would be pretty damn hard for a random girl to walk into Nassau and take over.  She was in a position to leverage the power wielded by her father and it's to her own credit that she knew how to do it and was successful in doing so but it's not something she's going to be able to repeat now that she's been turned out of power once already.  The pirates feel no loyalty to her and she knows it.  If she wants to return to power now she has to ingratiate herself with power.  Might there come a day where she could betray Rogers and the British and still keep a position of power on the island?  Maybe, but not any time soon.  So I think Eleanor will be pretty "loyal" to the British for the time being.  Which should be pretty entertaining.  Hell, if all her intel and plans work out as well as sending Hornigold did she might not have to betray or manipulate to get power - Rogers might just be impressed enough to give her what she wants, lol.

[ulkis]

Mostly for convenience of the writers, I think. Word would have had to have gotten out. NOT bringing the Urca gold to your home base would seem to be the smart thing to do. Oh! We'll take it back to Nassau, world-reknown pirate hangout, no one will ever think of looking for it there! Plus there are any number of better places to hide it between the site of the Urca shipwreck and Nassau.

I don't know if it's just for the convenience of the writers . . . they could hide it elsewhere but I don't think any of them trust the others that much. Maybe they're afraid the men guarding it would run off with it or something. Plus, while Nassau is the most obvious place it's also the best defended place. I don't know, I can see both the pros and cons.

Re: whether Flint loved Miranda more than Thomas or not, I can see it simply being hard for him because she was the last link to his old life, and also guilt over bringing her to Charles Town in the first place (even though she did insist).

[peacefrog]

I've always found it a bit odd how difficult people find it interpreting the Flint/Mirana/Thomas relationship.  As a bi woman with a friends group that's like 90% polyamorous (they all date multiple people, often each other, and everyone is cool with it) it doesn't seem that complicated to me.  Flint can be sexually and/or romantically attracted to both Miranda and Thomas at the same time.  Sure there can be nuances to that - he might love them for different reasons, in different ways, get different things from the relationships, etc - but it's entirely a thing that happens in real life to love more than one gender, more than one person.  And I think that's why Flint was so confused - he loved them both but Miranda's death has hit him harder and he couldn't comprehend why.  Imagine loving and losing too people but feeling like one death meant more than the other - there could be some pretty massive guilt involved.  He needed the dreams/hallucinations to delve into his own psyche and get a grip on it.  It wasn't about loving her more or anything like that, it was that she played a bigger part in making him who he is.  I didn't take her "I was mother" line to mean she literally had a maternal relationship with him, but that she guided him and helped him through so much change and growth that she helped mold him, she helped create Captain Flint, and that support is now gone.  He didn't just lose a friend or lover this time, he also lost his mentor, in a way.  

  I don't think it's complicated like you say. I'm just not seeing him acting like he cared much for her the past 2 seasons. To me he appeared too barely tolerate her, even when he was sleeping with her. So I just never thought he showed anything other than obligation to her for Thomas's sake. However I like what you say here that he didn't realise that he did care for her all along and has to deal with that now. Completely agree about her mother comment also. The genders of these people involved don't really figure in to it, compare with below:

I think Max really did love Eleanor, and that just turned out spectacularly awful for her, so I don't think she's really letting herself think about relationships like that again.

I agree and feel like both Max and Eleanor had real feelings and Eleanor had complicated feelings for Vane as well. I think the show just showed it better in this storyline.

Apologies about calling her Amanda. I did know her name was Miranda and usually on this show everything is hard to hear but her name was clear, I just had a brain fart.

[henripootel]

Were Ann and Max sitting in the treasure room with that scale? Is all the gold gone, having been exchanged for black pearls (or whatever)?

They traded around 46,000 pieces for black pearls, far easier to transport, and Max wanted Anne to witness that she was dividing them into two equal shares.  My guess is that this didn't even represent the majority of Anne and Max's cut together, although it is a staggering amount of money.  Were I them I'd light out for ... anywhere.  That kinda cash should be able to set them up for life somewhere fancy, Paris or for that matter, Spain. Nassau's about to get a bit warm, one way or the other.

[Garnett7]

Great episode. All the cast gave amazing performances. Bravo to them.

 

I agree, though, with the poster who said Max is just not interesting anymore. They need to do something more with other than fret over her relationships or her standing. Scheming Max of season 1 was good. Mopey Max is dull.

 

On the Flint/Thomas/Miranda front -- I think Flint didn't realize how much Miranda meant to him until she died. It wasn't the same romantic love of his life feeling he had for Thomas. But it was still a hugely significant relationship. It was more of a partnership. Losing Thomas kept them together. They leaned on one another, although I do think there were times he sorta resented her. That was clear in 205 when he said the only thing he was ashamed of, regarding his relationship with Thomas, was that he listened to her and left England instead of trying to save Thomas.

 

Miranda was all the things to him that she said in his vision -- lover, wife, and mother. We know they had a sometimes sexual relationship. She offered him the support and understanding in a "wifely" role. And she was "mother" in that she helped give birth to and form Captain Flint. She helped focus his rage after losing Thomas. Miranda knew both elements of him -- James McGraw and Captain Flint and loved both those people. Now that she is dead, he's feeling very alone and lost. There's also the guilt he feels over her. It's clear he blames himself. And it's got to have been pretty traumatic to see someone you've known and loved for over a decade get their brains blown out all over you and then see them mocked and degraded in their coffin.

 

As for Rogers and Spain . . . .(history "spoiler")

Spain and England will be back at war soon which will probably take the heat of Spain off him a bit. But it will also take the backing of England away. So he'll be pretty much on his own in the Rogers vs. Pirates battle over Nassau.

[Trisan]

Amazing episode as always ! 

 

You guys said all there was to say (more or less), but I'll just add that now, there's one relationship between characters I really look forward to see evolve : Blackbeard and Rackham.

The apparent contempt of the first for the other is... well, I see Blackbeard point somehow, but I hope he'll get to see more of Rackham's qualities, silvertongue and intelect. Sure, for the cracky grandpa (kuddos CatMack for that one) that Blackbeard is, Rackham may appear as a "lower kind of pirate", but truly, I think Rackham is most suited for the current situation than Teach. And I hope he'll get to respect him one way or the other.

[Fable]

So why is Flint so torn up about Amanda like she was the love of his life? Guilt? I always got the impression from him that he just tolerated her because she knew about his relationship with Thomas. He sort of trusted her but Thomas was the love of his life. I never got he was interested in her other than her connection to Thomas.

 

I wondered this as well, but I think it was the line about being his mother that made me realize she was much more than just a friend.  I do feel Thomas was his true love, but I think Miranda pushed him to explore himself and spread his wings so to speak, to recognize the things that really drove him and not to bend to convention.  In essence, she set him on the path he is on today, and has remained with him as a partner through the years since leaving England, hence the strong bond between them.

[hammaboo]

Well, we now know the name Eleanor gave.  I don't know if I am surprised or not. 

[DarkRaichu]

I was a bit surprised to see Flint up on deck in a hammock eating shark sushi.  He has a very nice cabin below, with a comfortable bed.  I found it bit odd that he was hanging out on deck.  But that's nit picking.

 

Okay, somebody with better anthropological credentials than me is going to have to explain the natives we saw in the final scene.  Those didn't look like any depictions of 18th century native Americans that I'm familiar with but maybe my notions are all based on movie depictions of plains Indians.  Is that what native Americans of the Florida / Central America / Caribbean area looked like?

 

Flint was outside (as well as Silver) when they discussed the whale.  He was probably outside of his cabin to show solidarity with the crews.  Since he was outside when they were hungry, why wouldn't he be outside for the feast??

Btw, technically it was shark sashimi (since there was no rice component) ;)

 

To me the islanders looked like African descents.  Since the storm veered them east, could Flint and crew reach west Africa?  This could be the Treasure Island, maybe the island was closer to west Africa than to the Caribbeans?

[ganesh]

When they pulled up to the beach, there was a shot of the tall mountain peak, and I thought the same thing. 

[Scaeva]

Okay, somebody with better anthropological credentials than me is going to have to explain the natives we saw in the final scene.  Those didn't look like any depictions of 18th century native Americans that I'm familiar with but maybe my notions are all based on movie depictions of plains Indians.  Is that what native Americans of the Florida / Central America / Caribbean area looked like?

 

The man with spyglass had African features, although he was wearing some kind of paint on his face.

 

My guess is that they landed on an island populated by Maroons. 

 

Some of the African slaves brought to the Caribbean were able to escape the plantations and form independent communities on relatively uninhabited islands or in stretches of jungle away from colonial settlements. Others joined up and intermarried with Native American bands. The Spanish called both groups Cimarrones, and that word was later anglicized to Maroon when the English encountered them in Jamaica. Some of the more populous or better armed communities were able to resist European encroachment for awhile, and occasionally even raided plantations or European settlements. They were also occasionally enlisted by buccaneer or pirate crews or employed as 'native' guides by them. Francis Drake famously used Maroon guides to lead him through the jungle to capture the Spanish silver train coming up from Peru to Nombre de Dios in Panama.

 

On that last note I'm wondering if Flint & company might end up recruiting them for the defense of Nassau.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Scaeva

[Ravenya003]

Hostile natives? Really?

 

I suppose we only caught a glimpse of them, so I can't hurry to judge what the show has in store for them. Perhaps they've landed on the as-yet-unnamed Treasure Island? 

 

Loved Max's backstory. And given what she was called by the gross merchant dude on the beach, I'm still hanging onto my theory that

she'll be the future Mrs Silver (since it was the same term Stevenson used to describe Silver's off-screen wife throughout Treasure Island). 

 

I was a bit disappointed in fandom's response to Flint's words about Miranda (granted it was on Tumblr, but still). He loved Thomas, but he spent TEN YEARS with Miranda, were she was essentially his rock and conscience. I don't think his admission that he was destroyed by her death in any way takes away from his love of Thomas (contrary to what most stories try to sell us, love is neither singular nor finite) and I can easily believe that he roared and raged but was galvanised over Thomas's death, but now just feels broken without Miranda, in a sort-of "don't know what you've got till it's gone" kind of way. 

 

Speaking of Tumblr, a few posters seem utterly convinced that Flint/Silver is going to become a thing. Hey, it's Starz so I suppose it could happen, but I'm not going to be the one to tell them Flint's fate in Treasure Island.

Edited February 10, 2016 by kariyaki
Book spoiler

[Neurochick]

Hey Ravenya003, I was thinking that very same thing when they called

Max a negress, because she's called that more than once in Treasure Island.  

 

I think the Flint/Silver thing is because

there was a rumor about this season, that Flint has a relationship with someone unexpected, so everybody was like, it's Silver!  

 

I have read Treasure Island but we're still 20 years away from that so...

[tricksi]

I can see the Flint/Silver thing but knowing what we've seen of Silver so far and what we know about him in Treasure Island in regards to his personal life, that would mean another bi-sexual main character.  Can't we have someone who is just gay? I mean Max might be but she has threesomes with Rackam and Anne so it's possible she's also fluid in her sexuality when it suits her. 

 

I know that the producers said Flint finds romance from an unexpected source. I think it's Billy. How unexpected would that be? And certainly fits in with 20 years later Flint giving him the treasure map as he's dying. Something has to change between them to get to that point and that relationship (even if just platonic) must endure. Remember when Silver (?) made a comment about Flint being out of control when coming back on ship after killing the magistrate and his wife and Billy said "he's fine". Billy for some reason continues to be loyal to a man who hasn't returned that loyalty. Why? And I remember the dream where Miranda says "and you will realize the truth". Well that could cover a lot of areas but one area could be in regards to love - that it's not done with him yet if he'd just open his eyes and see it before him.

 

But then again, that could just be MY wishful thinking. 

Edited February 11, 2016 by tricksi

[Neurochick]

tricksi, that's very interesting.  

 

I think Silver would have to really have to trust someone to sleep with them at this point, because of his leg and that he might see himself as an invalid and assume that whomever wants him feels sorry for him or something like that.  

Edited February 11, 2016 by Neurochick

[ganesh]

If it was Max or Anne, I wouldn't care if they were doing me out of pity. Or both.

[ecubed]

This article: 

http://collider.com/black-sails-season-3-toby-stephens-interview/ leads me to believe Silver is the love interest (I don't think the use of the word "penetrate" is a coincidence).  I would prefer Billy.

[Garnett7]

I don't think Flint will have a romance this season myself. The articles I read,

TPTB didn't say a romance for him, but that "someone unexpected" would get through to him and help pull him out of this state he's in. Could that be romance, I guess, but I'm not really counting on it. I think Silver will just become someone he trusts and confides in, another Gates or Miranda. They'll have a friendship of sorts for awhile, before their falling out leading to TI.

[tricksi]

ecubed - I think you might be right.  

 

Here's the article I referenced earlier:

http://www.fashionnstyle.com/articles/78520/20160107/black-sails-season-3-spoilers-ep-jonathan-steinberg-discusses-flint-heartbreaking-journey.htm

     

The thing is, if Flint finds romance and an emotional connection with Silver and then is betrayed next season, wouldn't that be another loss on top of Thomas and Miranda?  How would he not then again sink back into despair to some degree?  

I guess I'll just have to wait and see. I rewatched this episode a few times and I'm loving Silver and how his character is evolving.  

 

 

[Fredward]

I can definitely ship Silver/Flint.

 

I haven't read Treasure Island but I think I can guess where it goes

 

 

Flint definitely dies, right? Silver kills him? If I had to guess.

 

So just imagine this right, Flint loses the people he loves. As he loses them he loses bits of his humanity too, Tomas' death birthed him as Captain Flint (sorry Miranda, midwife maybe) the guy we knew in the first two seasons. Hard but still somewhat honorable. Then he loses Miranda and super, ruthless flint is born. He's lost these two beacons in his life that both reminded and reinforced his humanity. 

 

In this episode we see Silver being sort of pressured to get a leash on the guy cuz he's just too much edge now. Silver succeeds and Flint now sees him as an equal, imagine this developing further. Somehow Silver becomes aware of Flint's... inclinations and he exploits them for the sake of the crew who will always be at the forefront of his mind. This continues, emotions becoming suitably confused and muddled until one day Flint does something that will lead to the inevitable death of the crew that Silver is totally and unequivocally loyal to, Silver tries his damnedest to convince him with his masculine wiles but since the healing power of love is not actually a thing and Flint does not budge, too much of his humanity has been shorn away through what he's lost and what he's done.

 

And... Silver kills him.

 

I mean. We often fear the people we love right? Well, okay, not often. But some people do. Or at least the effects of love. Fear the effect love for someone can have over our beliefs, our resolve, our autonomy. That would be a kind of fear for Flint. Loving someone and having that love interfere with his burning desire to avenge a different love and just fuck England's shit up in general.

 

ALSO. The pathos payload. Tell me this kind of pathos would not be absolutely perfect for this show. Flint loves two people, Flint loses two people. These people were the best of him, reminding him of his humanity, vibrance, love etc. he thinks he's lost it forever but then discovers a guttering spark for someone else but learns too late that a guttering spark is not enough and then he DIES.

 

 

It's perfect.

[Neurochick]

I can definitely ship Silver/Flint.

 

I haven't read Treasure Island but I think I can guess where it goes

 

 

Flint definitely dies, right? Silver kills him? If I had to guess.

 

So just imagine this right, Flint loses the people he loves. As he loses them he loses bits of his humanity too, Tomas' death birthed him as Captain Flint (sorry Miranda, midwife maybe) the guy we knew in the first two seasons. Hard but still somewhat honorable. Then he loses Miranda and super, ruthless flint is born. He's lost these two beacons in his life that both reminded and reinforced his humanity. 

 

In this episode we see Silver being sort of pressured to get a leash on the guy cuz he's just too much edge now. Silver succeeds and Flint now sees him as an equal, imagine this developing further. Somehow Silver becomes aware of Flint's... inclinations and he exploits them for the sake of the crew who will always be at the forefront of his mind. This continues, emotions becoming suitably confused and muddled until one day Flint does something that will lead to the inevitable death of the crew that Silver is totally and unequivocally loyal to, Silver tries his damnedest to convince him with his masculine wiles but since the healing power of love is not actually a thing and Flint does not budge, too much of his humanity has been shorn away through what he's lost and what he's done.

 

And... Silver kills him.

 

I mean. We often fear the people we love right? Well, okay, not often. But some people do. Or at least the effects of love. Fear the effect love for someone can have over our beliefs, our resolve, our autonomy. That would be a kind of fear for Flint. Loving someone and having that love interfere with his burning desire to avenge a different love and just fuck England's shit up in general.

 

ALSO. The pathos payload. Tell me this kind of pathos would not be absolutely perfect for this show. Flint loves two people, Flint loses two people. These people were the best of him, reminding him of his humanity, vibrance, love etc. he thinks he's lost it forever but then discovers a guttering spark for someone else but learns too late that a guttering spark is not enough and then he DIES.

 

 

It's perfect.

 

Actually no,

Flint dies from drinking too much rum.