S10.E05: Big Family Changes

[Wellfleet]

The child is 4. It's a bit much to label her a moody maladjusted hostile adult with no friends. 

 

Tens of 1000s of studies have shown that the personality is basically in place by the age of 5. And that a great deal of general temperament appears to be genetic. So at roughly 4½ Zoey pretty much has most of what she's going to get to work with. Now she needs the shaping, guidance and form of wise parenting.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I really like Dave and Judy and will miss them, although their move is understandable.

I get a kick out of Judy's deep, raspy voice--I wonder if she was a smoker at some point. You see the depth of her feelings for Jen when she tears up here and there. I can only imagine how many difficulties they faced raising Jen, and to have her turn out to be such a success story with a a wonderful family--no wonder Judy gets emotional. She should be very proud, she and Dave did a great job.

 

I wondered the same thing about whether she was/is a smoker.  I guess Jen won't miss NaiNai giving the kids whatever they want.  I was thinking of the scene at the kitchen table eating ice cream or cake and Zoey asks more more, Jen says no and Judy goes ahead and gives it to her.  Jen's A-type controlling personality (her admission!) won't miss those moments!  Poor Jen gets undermined by Judy and Bill does nothing so she is left being the only one doling out discipline when it is convenient.  

Dave and Judy were divorced for a few years and he remarried IIRC (from their book) and I wonder how they parented during those difficult times.  Maybe the same tensions were building and they decided to put each other first this time.  Good for everybody!

[Veronique Bette]

Tens of 1000s of studies have shown that the personality is basically in place by the age of 5. And that a great deal of general temperament appears to be genetic. So at roughly 4½ Zoey pretty much has most of what she's going to get to work with. Now she needs the shaping, guidance and form of wise parenting.

Even if “tens of thousands" of studies do conclude that personality traits are set by the age of five, these traits would have been assessed through ongoing observations and reports from parents, teachers and possibly clinicians and not from watching glimpses of a child on 45-minute episodes of a reality show’s brief season each year.  Viewers are free to form impressions but these do not count as valid profiles or assessments of what a child “is working with”.

[Kohola3]

How is it easier for parents of newborns to adjust to being parents, versus parents of toddlers or pre-schoolers? 

 

Being with a child from the time it's born allows parents to become familiar with the subtle clues about the child's temperament.  Many parents say that they can tell one type of cry from another, e.g the hungry cry vs. the "change diaper" cry.  As the child matures, the parents have a baseline of behaviors that are a point of reference as the child gets older.

 

Without sounding crass, it's like adopting an older dog from the shelter vs. a puppy.  With an older animal, you have no idea of how the prior history might affect temperament in the long run.

 

Bill and Jen took on kids that had already endured a lot of hardship.  They have done a great job working with them and helping them to blossom.

[leighroda]

I actually used to work for Texas children's and gave shots all the time (I was at a different office than the one featured) especially with 4 year olds I had to be quick because once they realized what I was doing all bets were off... It's funny because I now dont do shots very often, but I'm still fast, I forget that I probably don't have to be as quick with an adult getting 1 shot. The nice thing is usually once they get 4 yr shots they don't need anything else until they are 11 (generally... Obviously not the case for everyone). To be honest it's actually usually the medicine that stings more than the actual shot, but there is no negotiating that point with a 4 year old.

[minx]

That seemed like a wonderful, caring pediatric group. Very skilled at shot giving, it seemed, although we didn't see the actual shots, IIRC.

I loved everything about this episode. Some of this season has been a little tedious but this one was pure pleasure. Zoey making googly eyes at Dr. Ho, goofing with Bill at lunch, dressing up as Minnie! Will was adorable too, and it was a nice send off episode for Judy and Dave.

Also, count me as one who LOVES Zoey's short hair. You can see more of her beautiful little face, her eyes. and her expressions. She wears girls' clothing so she looks like a girl, even without pierced ears.

[mbutterfly]

How is it easier for parents of newborns to adjust to being parents, versus parents of toddlers or pre-schoolers? If anything, IMO it seems like all the physical care a newborn requires, coupled with the sleep deprivation the parents experience, makes adjustment more difficult for people with newborns. Not to mention the fact that parents have to wait a long time before their infants can tell you just what the problem is - LOL  I think Bill and Jen were smarter to adopt pre-schoolers. Or maybe luckier than no little-person infants were available, since I bet they might have taken on a baby if they had that option.

I gave birth to two of my children and we adopted two of our children as toddlers. In my experience the former was easier -- not a lot easier, but easier. 

[TEEVEE]

I'm sure she'd be fine.  Kids seem to jump back faster from pain.  As a kid as I had my ears pierced very young, I've broken my arm (which I'm sure hurt like hell) had to get stitches in my knee and finger and probably other painful childhood things, but I'm pretty sure I was never given pain meds for anything and I don't remember anything being that terrible.

 

Now as an adult just getting my teeth cleaned makes me a whiney biatch the entire day because gosh darn it, it makes my gums hurt ALL DAY LONG!! lol 

 

And maybe if Zoey is scarred from having her ears pierced at a young age then maybe it will cause her to rethink ridiculous piercings when she's a teenager. ;)

You may have an unskilled hygienist.  Do you go every 6 months, use tartar control toothpaste, and floss?  I hate to have it done, but it does not hurt.  And certainly not all day.  However, if you are like some people who wait and go when the plaque is visible and starting to look like another tooth, then yea, it will probably hurt a lot.  A cleaning and scaling are 2 different things.  You could ask for a topical anethesthic, but again, if your teeth are in bad shape, then I suppose when that wore off, your gums would still hurt.

[TEEVEE]

I wish the activities were tailored to the comprehension level of Will and Zoey.  The lemonade stand was a cute photo op and nothing more.  Give those kids candies/sugar and they will smile and do whatever the producers want.  Grating crayons and ironing?  I guess this is Jen's idea of "family time."  How about letting the kids play in their playroom with the thousands of dollars of toys they have.  Has anyone ever seen Zoey or Will cook off that stove.  How about the kids make dinner for themselves on the play stove or bake a cake/cookies, make pasta.  I would enjoy watching them interact with each other not Jen and Bill.  Jen and pinterest are too old for them and boring.  Bill's eye rolling was evident and him ironing was an added bonus.  Jen just tries too hard and doesn't know how to be a kid.  Everything appears forced whether it be helping them add ingredients into the mixer for smoothies or water fights.  Bill is a kid himself and unfortunately has no clue how to discipline the kids.  

 

I did like the educational portion of the show about the importance of vaccines.    

This activity-I kept waiting for Zoey to grate a chunk of skin off.  Every time I use a grater, I grate a knuckle. And I think crayons would take more force than cheese!

[Foghorn Leghorn]

This activity-I kept waiting for Zoey to grate a chunk of skin off.  Every time I use a grater, I grate a knuckle. And I think crayons would take more force than cheese!

 

I have caught a knuckle myself!  OUCH!  I wonder how the waxy residue from the crayons came off. 

Edited February 7, 2016 by Foghorn Leghorn

[BitterApple]

This activity-I kept waiting for Zoey to grate a chunk of skin off. Every time I use a grater, I grate a knuckle. And I think crayons would take more force than cheese!

Oh my Lord, I know. Hopefully they just had her do a few quick passes for the camera and took the grater away shortly after. I've caught a knuckle before and it hurts like hell.

Edited February 7, 2016 by BitterApple

[Wellfleet]

That seemed like a wonderful, caring pediatric group. Very skilled at shot giving, it seemed, although we didn't see the actual shots, IIRC.

I loved everything about this episode. Some of this season has been a little tedious but this one was pure pleasure. Zoey making googly eyes at Dr. Ho, goofing with Bill at lunch, dressing up as Minnie! Will was adorable too, and it was a nice send off episode for Judy and Dave.

Also, count me as one who LOVES Zoey's short hair. You can see more of her beautiful little face, her eyes. and her expressions. She wears girls' clothing so she looks like a girl, even without pierced ears.

 

I agree. Zoey's hair is adorable - those eyes look even bigger. IMO, everyone looks better with shorter hair. It dawned on me years ago that I tend to notice the WHOLE person - male or female - right away when the hair is worn shorter. If the hair is shoulder-length or longer, I tend to focus on it. I'd say that faces - and personas - just "pop" more when there's less hair. Weird maybe, but try it sometime. For a whole week, look critically at everyone you meet, everyone you see in magazines, on TV, online etc. Which people "pop" right away for you? Maybe Coco Chanel was really right when she said that all women over the age of 30 should wear their hair chin-length or shorter?

[BitterApple]

If anyone needs proof of "long hair isn't necessarily better" take one look at the Duggar girls.

With that said, I don't really care for the pixie on Zoe, but it's not my kid. If she's happy with it, then that's all that counts.

[gunderda]

You may have an unskilled hygienist.  Do you go every 6 months, use tartar control toothpaste, and floss?  I hate to have it done, but it does not hurt.  And certainly not all day.  However, if you are like some people who wait and go when the plaque is visible and starting to look like another tooth, then yea, it will probably hurt a lot.  A cleaning and scaling are 2 different things.  You could ask for a topical anethesthic, but again, if your teeth are in bad shape, then I suppose when that wore off, your gums would still hurt.

One should not assume, but yes I go every 6 months.

I know people who need to have the laughing gas just for their cleanings and others that need to take valium.  Everyone's mouth is different.

I wouldn't say I have an unskilled hygienist, I think I have a VERY thorough hygienist combined with me having sensitive gums.  I can tell the older I get the more sensitive they get. 

And my teeth are in very good shape, thank you very much ;)   I haven't had a cavity in probably 15 years, never had a root canal or any other major dental procedure, haven't even had to re-do any of my fillings from when I was younger. 

[Absolom]

Shaving the crayons made me nervous.  I'm guessing Jen was being extra careful with Zoey and the grater.  They seemed to get through it with no problems.

 

Some diseases and disorders make even teeth cleaning painful and require medications. 

[BW Manilowe]

I actually used to work for Texas children's and gave shots all the time (I was at a different office than the one featured) especially with 4 year olds I had to be quick because once they realized what I was doing all bets were off... It's funny because I now dont do shots very often, but I'm still fast, I forget that I probably don't have to be as quick with an adult getting 1 shot. The nice thing is usually once they get 4 yr shots they don't need anything else until they are 11 (generally... Obviously not the case for everyone). To be honest it's actually usually the medicine that stings more than the actual shot, but there is no negotiating that point with a 4 year old.

I'm a "chronic" hospital patient due to issues related to birth defects I have/had (I also was hospitalized at TX Children's, for a special type of surgery they don't/didn't do closer to my home, in the mid-1970's). I was most recently in my local hospital for 2 weeks this past October, & I've hated "medical" needles as long as I can remember (I'm 52 now). When I was there, the nurses, etc., who had to stick me for IVs/meds, blood, etc., said that shots usually stung because the alcohol from the wipe hadn't dried enough on the skin (the person giving the shot should wait 30 secs. between the alcohol & the needle stick, they said) before the needle stick. But, yeah, the medicine stings sometimes too.

[mbutterfly]

Tens of 1000s of studies have shown that the personality is basically in place by the age of 5. And that a great deal of general temperament appears to be genetic. So at roughly 4½ Zoey pretty much has most of what she's going to get to work with. Now she needs the shaping, guidance and form of wise parenting.

I have to question how these studies are defining general temperament. I was adopted. Have since met my birth family. I'm pretty certain that behaviorally, I'm far more like my adoptive family. But, as I say, I don't know what instruments were used for general temperament. 

[leighroda]

I'm a "chronic" hospital patient due to issues related to birth defects I have/had (I also was hospitalized at TX Children's, for a special type of surgery they don't/didn't do closer to my home, in the mid-1970's). I was most recently in my local hospital for 2 weeks this past October, & I've hated "medical" needles as long as I can remember (I'm 52 now). When I was there, the nurses, etc., who had to stick me for IVs/meds, blood, etc., said that shots usually stung because the alcohol from the wipe hadn't dried enough on the skin (the person giving the shot should wait 30 secs. between the alcohol & the needle stick, they said) before the needle stick. But, yeah, the medicine stings sometimes too.

Yeah for sure, and everyone is different so what I consider a sting may not so much to everyone... And as the shot giver it's hard to know if it's the poke, alcohol, or medicine that is making someone scream at me... I just know there were some shots I could give and there would be no reaction (for ex I could usually give dtap to a baby without them noticing/crying, but if a child was old enough to know they are getting a shot the usually cried anyway.) and some that made people cry no matter what (prevnar which is a pneumococcus shot)

[SistaLadybug]

My daughter and I finally got to watch this episode and our vote is unanimous - the pixie is darling.  I love that it makes Zoey look like, well, a little pixie!  Those huge, dark, expressive eyes are even more prominent.  She's such a gorgeous little girl.

[eributterfly]

I actually thought they were prolonging getting the shot by trying to reason with a 4 year old. I went with my friend to get her son his shots and she said just do it. He was crying and she was given the option to hold him which Bill could have done instead of Zoey lying flat but his pants were already off at that point and she was overwhelming him with kisses and the other nurse was doing peek a boo, which I thought was not age appropriate but he was cracking up in between cries. But, to sit there saying look at the butterflies on the wall or it won't hurt or you won't have to get another one for along time seemed like they were just as scared as she was.

[gunderda]

I actually thought they were prolonging getting the shot by trying to reason with a 4 year old. I went with my friend to get her son his shots and she said just do it. He was crying and she was given the option to hold him which Bill could have done instead of Zoey lying flat but his pants were already off at that point and she was overwhelming him with kisses and the other nurse was doing peek a boo, which I thought was not age appropriate but he was cracking up in between cries. But, to sit there saying look at the butterflies on the wall or it won't hurt or you won't have to get another one for along time seemed like they were just as scared as she was.

 

You could tell they held her down, Jenn was still sort of holding her arms when they cut back from after the shots.   It's how they did it when she was first adopted, one parents held her arms and one held her legs.  I'm sure just that alone can be traumatizing but must be the best way for them to handle it because obviously looking at butterflies doesn't work and they know that but they have to try lol

[Honey]

You could tell they held her down, Jenn was still sort of holding her arms when they cut back from after the shots.   It's how they did it when she was first adopted, one parents held her arms and one held her legs.  I'm sure just that alone can be traumatizing but must be the best way for them to handle it because obviously looking at butterflies doesn't work and they know that but they have to try lol

My daughter had to be physically restrained for every single shot after her first ones.  Even when she was much older she still screamed at the top of her lungs and had to be held.  She is simply terrified of shots. It doesn't bother me at all.  I don't even flinch, so I don't know where she got that fear from.  I didn't like Zoey's short hair when I saw the first pic a few weeks ago.  Now, I think it's adorable.  There is no chance people would ever think she's a boy. You could dress her in boy's clothes, and you would still know she's a girl.  She's so beautiful.

[Wellfleet]

My daughter had to be physically restrained for every single shot after her first ones.  Even when she was much older she still screamed at the top of her lungs and had to be held.  She is simply terrified of shots. It doesn't bother me at all.  I don't even flinch, so I don't know where she got that fear from.  I didn't like Zoey's short hair when I saw the first pic a few weeks ago.  Now, I think it's adorable.  There is no chance people would ever think she's a boy. You could dress her in boy's clothes, and you would still know she's a girl.  She's so beautiful.

 

Agree. Short hair, long hair, no hair - anyone who could mistake Zoey for a boy is just not very observant. 

[leighroda]

My daughter had to be physically restrained for every single shot after her first ones. Even when she was much older she still screamed at the top of her lungs and had to be held. She is simply terrified of shots. It doesn't bother me at all. I don't even flinch, so I don't know where she got that fear from. I didn't like Zoey's short hair when I saw the first pic a few weeks ago. Now, I think it's adorable. There is no chance people would ever think she's a boy. You could dress her in boy's clothes, and you would still know she's a girl. She's so beautiful.

TBH, when I gave shots I would have the parent restrain no matter what, some would say "they won't fight" but it wasn't a chance I was willing to take, especially when they are getting more than 1 shot it's safer for everyone because in the event that the child starts fighting, my first reaction would be to get the needle away from the child to avoid injury, which could mean myself or the parent being stuck, and if I got stuck with a needle, a shot would no longer be an issue because that kid would be sent to get mandatory blood work ( I would too but blood work doesn't bother me)

I also hated when parents wanted to reason or bargain with the child, albeit somewhat selfishly, at any given time I had a running list of tasks to complete so I didn't really want to stand in a room for 20 minutes negotiating something that was not really negotiable. The funniest negotiation I ever whitnessed was a girl who was probably 7-8, and needed a flu shot. The mom was bargaining when I came in the room, and the bargaining tool was the girl wanted her ears pierced. I kept my mouth shut, but I wanted to laugh, because getting your ears pierced hurts way more than one flu shot.

I haven't seen the whole thing yet, but were the shots shown? I used to work at TCH and I swear there was a policy about not filming procedures, but now that I think about it they have filmed Jenn doing stuff in the NICU, so I'm probably making that up. But I still wouldn't want to be filmed on national television giving a shot and have my technique picked at incessantly. Especially because TCH is very big on comfort measures for shots, it was a running joke at my office that the people who made these guidelines had never given a shot, and I'd have to look to see how Jenn is holding Zoey, but someone mentioned her arms being held back and that was a no no... You were supposed to have the child sit on the parents lap facing the parent and straddling with one leg on either side, have them hug the parent and then the parent hug them back but managing to hold the arms, disguised as a bear hug ( my personal issue with this was that it left the legs, which was the appendage I would be sticking a needle in, unsecured, yes I could hold it with my other hand, but when several shots are being given its hard to do it safe and effectively, because Time is of the essence but with this method I would have to stop halfway through to move to the other side.)

[BitterApple]

Why all the drama and coddling over a stupid shot? When I was little my mom just said it'll hurt like a hard pinch, then you're done. I honestly think it makes it worse for kids when adults make something unavoidable into a huge, drawn out process.

Leighroda, I'm not directing this at you by any means, just commenting about how ridiculous some parents have become. Their kid's not going to die because they experience five seconds of discomfort.

Edited February 10, 2016 by BitterApple

[lookeyloo]

Reminds me of when I was a kid many moons ago before disposable syringes and the doctor and my parents had to chase me around the little room (I think I was old enough to know better and believe me, not pampered) and when he finally cornered me under a desk (this was the olden days) I squirmed so much I broke the syringe and my parents had to pay for it and they were Not Pleased.  I still hate a shot but behave better.  When my kids were little I told them it would pinch for a second and they were allowed to cry.  they are grownups now and don't seem to be traumatized by it.

[ginger90]

When I would take my girls for immunizations, I gave them Tylenol before we left the house.

l eighroda , they didn't show the actual shot being given.

[Honey]

With my daughter, it wasn't just 1 parent holding her.  It was a whole team of people holding her down.  Man, that child was strong.  She still is.

[leighroda]

Why all the drama and coddling over a stupid shot? When I was little my mom just said it'll hurt like a hard pinch, then you're done. I honestly think it makes it worse for kids when adults make something unavoidable into a huge, drawn out process.

Leighroda, I'm not directing this at you by any means, just commenting about how ridiculous some parents have become. Their kid's not going to die because they experience five seconds of discomfort.

lol I completely understand...and agree, I had to comply, simply because I didn't have a choice but it drove me crazy... I'm more in the "you don't want the shot because it's gonna hurt? Ok, let me know when contract meningitis and require a spinal tap" camp... But being sarcastic with 12 yr olds is frowned upon. I can't even tell you how many times I was asked if we had emla cream (it is supposed to numb the skin, but is not always effective, makes proper cleaning of the site difficult, and does nothing for the tissue under the skin, meaning it still hurts).

[eributterfly]

I enjoyed his episode as well, the lemonade stand was so cute but, once they saw the problem with the filling of the cups and the kids sipping from all of the cups, simply take the cups away and have them where customers pay for their items and then Will and Zoey could fill it and be done. Jen laughs at everything but, I also assume it's when she nervous or sad as well, she was talking with her mom about moving and all she did was giggle. I am not sure if anyone caught this but me, because I am weird, when Jen stated that her parents had wanted to retire and move to Florida for as long as she had known them. Kind of odd talking about your parents. Maybe, all of my life or since I could remember. I'm feeling Deja vu. Have I already typed my comment on this episode.? If I have, I apologize, I have lupus and suffer from what's called lupus brain or brain fog. I'll end here.

[BitterApple]

I am not sure if anyone caught this but me, because I am weird, when Jen stated that her parents had wanted to retire and move to Florida for as long as she had known them. Kind of odd talking about your parents. Maybe, all of my life or since I could remember.

It was a strange comment, especially considering Jen grew up in Florida. Dave and Judy were just moving back to where they'd lived for years. It's not like they're from up North and fulfilled a lifelong dream to retire in sunshine and warm weather.

[CousinAmy]

It might just have been a joke. I once gave my mother a Mother's day card that said, "For Someone Who Has Been Like a Mother to Me" because, she was. Just a bit of family humor.

[truebluesmoky]

I think Jen is just awkward when she has to talk a lot in talking heads (and this is coming from someone who likes her).

[Wellfleet]

I think Jen is just awkward when she has to talk a lot in talking heads (and this is coming from someone who likes her).

 

Yep, I think Jen meant to say something more along the lines of "My parents have been talking about retiring on a warm, sandy beach in Florida for as long as I can remember..." and it just didn't land. Her sentence came out instead. I have heard people say "...for as long as I've known them..." about their own parents or sibs before. It's just what an English major or an editor would probably call "awkward." Doesn't quite hit the right note.

[eributterfly]

Yep, I think Jen meant to say something more along the lines of "My parents have been talking about retiring on a warm, sandy beach in Florida for as long as I can remember..." and it just didn't land. Her sentence came out instead. I have heard people say "...for as long as I've known them..." about their own parents or sibs before. It's just what an English major or an editor would probably call "awkward." Doesn't quite hit the right note.

Nope, I don't buy that because I think Jen is very meticulous about what she says and how she says it because she doesn't want to come off in a non perfect way. I believe she fully thinks out every word and probably has rehearsed it prior to. This is my opinion. There have been other instances where she has said things that I thought, why would she say it that way, it makes no sense and it wasn't even a smooth delivery it was almost like it was rehearsed.

I just thought of something else, they were saying that Zoey was having her first "crush" or starry eyed look at the doctor. I think it may have been because he actually looked like her. He was brown skinned, well minus the makeup and had her dark hair. She looked more like WOW he looks like me. Just a thought.

[eributterfly]

What are the thoughts about Tuesdays episode??? I was so anxious to see how the kids have grown and progressed and I was highly disappointed.  I think Will is 6 or 7 and Zoey is 4 or 5. When Zoey was telling everyone no, including her grandparents without being corrected that that isn't nice behavior, I was floored. They are spoiled brats. In the castle, going into places after being told not to or being told come here and completely ignoring Bill, primarily was shocking. They clearly have no control or very little because they try to be lenient as far as discipline goes. My mom said not all kids are easily disciplined and some kids are badder than others and it takes time. I get that but I also feel had Bill and Jen nipped little things in the bud when they happened when they first got them it would be a lot easier at this point. I have a feeling Will and Zoey are going to run the household.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

27 minutes ago, eributterfly said:

What are the thoughts about Tuesdays episode??? I was so anxious to see how the kids have grown and progressed and I was highly disappointed.  I think Will is 6 or 7 and Zoey is 4 or 5. When Zoey was telling everyone no, including her grandparents without being corrected that that isn't nice behavior, I was floored. They are spoiled brats. In the castle, going into places after being told not to or being told come here and completely ignoring Bill, primarily was shocking. They clearly have no control or very little because they try to be lenient as far as discipline goes. My mom said not all kids are easily disciplined and some kids are badder than others and it takes time. I get that but I also feel had Bill and Jen nipped little things in the bud when they happened when they first got them it would be a lot easier at this point. I have a feeling Will and Zoey are going to run the household.

There is a new season thread for Tuesday on the forum!