S04.E10: Blood Debts

[Starfish35]

This season I've seen episodes 1, 8, 9, 10 and the last part of 5 (I'm a late comer to Arrow). So, I haven't really seen much of Sara Deathzombie or whatever. That said, what Laurel did and what Oliver did were different thing. It seems to be that Laurel did what she did because she and her family, especially her father, were lost in agony. The only way they could end that agony was to recover what was lost, Sara. What Laurel did wasn't "right" but I can get it. And it eventually worked. Sara came back, ultimately in full.

Oliver isn't referring to Laurel bringing Sara back from the dead. He's referring to the fact that, when zombie!Sara got loose from her chains at the end of 404, Laurel let her run around for a week like that, killing people, before she told anyone that Sara had gotten loose.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Starfish35

[Kymmi]

I used to find the flashbacks somewhat interesting (S1) then somewhat over the top (S2) and then somewhat confusing as to the point (S3) and now I think they're just messing with me.  I would MUCH prefer they just took and intermission and played music and showed a picture of a curtain - it would be more interesting.  I can't even muster the interest to hate them.  They're so bland.

[Chaser]

I don't want to get into a debate that has already been had, but Laurel and her Dad were not lost in agony. It was a over a year after Sara had died. They had moved on with their lives. Laurel caused agony by opening up her fathers old wounds and she put her sister through hell because Laurel wanted something.

 

Laurel chained her feral sister to a freaking pipe in a basement (without even a blanket) instead of getting help and she continued to keep Sara a secret when she knew that Sara could kill someone.

 

I won't say that Oliver was right in what he did, but I will say that Laurel should choose an argument that doesn't drip of self-righteous hypocrisy. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by Chaser

[looptab]

You know there's a problem when Laurel is clearly in the right and Oliver isn't, yet I still sided with Oliver. I don't know if the problem is with the show or with me, but there's one, haha.

[BunsenBurner]

I've got a real hospital bed stored in my garage I would like to let Arrow prop people use because that thing that Felicity is laying on has got to be a gurney it's a pathetic prop.

 

Every fanfic that I have read has Oliver laying down on the bed with Felicity and if he did it in the hospital he would be laying on the floor!

Edited January 21, 2016 by BunsenBurner

[Chaser]

You know there's a problem when Laurel is clearly in the right and Oliver isn't, yet I still sided with Oliver. I don't know if the problem is with the show or with me, but there's one, haha.

 

The problem comes from the fact that you can see where Oliver comes from. Putting bad guys in cages? Not something he hasn't done before. Letting Anarchy out to go after DD? Plan is stupid and wrong, but you understand where he is at emotionally.

 

Laurel? She talks and you think about how she doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Chaser

[tangerine95]

The problem with Laurel trying to preach about moral to Oliver imo besides the hypocrisy, is her tone and the way she talks to him.She's rude and agressive right from the start.And Oliver is supposedly her friend and the woman he loves is in surgery,he's clearly not okay and getting desperate and thats how she acts towards him in a moment like that.Its a huge difference to how Diggle talks to him right after and manages to somewhat get through to him even though Digg himself isn't okay at all.

I was expecting a pep talk from Laurel but they totally wrote her unable to get through to Oliver and he's still has that look of wanting her to go away.I loved when he shut her down and threw what she did to Sara in her face.Makes me think the only reason they didn't have Laurel face consequences for it is that they have no interest in giving her a storyline or character growth anymore.

[dtissagirl]

You know there's a problem when Laurel is clearly in the right and Oliver isn't, yet I still sided with Oliver. I don't know if the problem is with the show or with me, but there's one, haha.

 

That's pretty much what's been going on since the pilot for me: she can be totally in the right, and intellectually I know she's right, and but I have negative empathy for Laurel, and there's no hope of connecting to her in any possible way, so I side with whoever she's fighting with every. single. damn. time.

 

That's the That's So Laurel pitch for cable right there: She's right, but you don't care.

Edited January 21, 2016 by dtissagirl

[bethy]

On whether Laurel will continue to butt heads with Oliver over his "end justify the means" approach, WM:  

"I think so. I mean, she has really come into her own as Black Canary, and we really like that she and Oliver are on a completely new footing this season. She’s become a superhero in her own right on the team, someone with an equal voice and someone with power — and Oliver respects her. She has the ability, just like Dig had in previous seasons, to really put the brakes on things and make him think about his decisions. We really love that dynamic."

 

 

I'm sorry, but what? 

Oliver respects her. She has the ability, just like Dig had in previous seasons, to really put the brakes on things and make him think about his decisions.

That's not what I saw on screen at ALL. Maybe it develops as they go, but in this episode, what I saw was the exact opposite.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Arrow Looses Mere Anarky Upon The World
An old villain returns to declare war on a new villain, and Team Arrow is caught in the middle.

[statsgirl]

Maybe the nurse took the ring off in the ER so it wouldn't screw up the MRI machine?  Or maybe she knows,unlike Oliver, that things go missing in the hospital around unconscious patients.

 

The prison Reiter put Oliver and Poppy into had sunlight coming in through the windows so I wasn't ARGUS' prison, which is deep underground.

 

Oliver said that now that Quentin's given up when he used to meet Darhk, it's not safe for him to go home but there's room in the bunker for him to stay. Okay, that should be interesting.  And how are they going to keep Donna safe now that she's dating Quentin?

 

Thea threatening Machin that she was going to shoot an arrow into his eye...love those family traditions.

 

How exactly did Oliver get a tracker on Machin?  He was nowhere near the guy and his only arrow at him broke the handcuffs.  Did he put it on while they had Machin captive and he was planning all along to let him go to get Darhk?

 

When Diggle started to play cards with Andy, he used his height to try to sneak a peek at Andy's cards.  it's a subtle look at how they must have been as boys.

 

If Mr. and Mrs. Darkh die/go to prison, who would be willing to look after their daughter? With those genes and that upbringing, she makes The Bad Seed look like a piker.

 

I do have to say they seemed REALLY COLD to each other in the FF. Which makes me hate the writers for the unneeded drama bullshit and for what looks like more season 3 like bullcrap.

Provided they play it out well, I think it's a good tease like the flash forward in the premier.  What I liked about it is that when Oliver asked Felicity is she's okay, she replied "Are you?"  She maybe be furious with him, but she still cares.

 

Felicity was so supportive of Oliver all through this episode, too supportive considering his behaviour, it has to be something really, really bad to cause Felicity to go so cold toward him.  The speculation goes on....

[arjumand]

I've got a real hospital bed stored in my garage I would like to let Arrow prop people use because that thing that Felicity is laying on has got to be a gurney it's a pathetic prop.

 

Every fanfic that I have read has Oliver laying down on the bed with Felicity and if he did it in the hospital he would be laying on the floor!

 

That's hilarious! Both this week's Flash thread and the Arrow thread have been full of complaints about obvious reuse of locations, not even disguised a little (even oblivious me, who doesn't usually notice these things, and who wasn't looking forward to the ep because stupid paralysis, recognized that lamp-lit path which was supposed to be the drive of Dahrk's fancy ass mansion) - if you say that's not even a hospital bed, well damn. Where's all the money going? Is it the effects for the stupid magic stuff? Seriously, I am SO OVER the freaking magic. Don't want it, don't need it.

 

Re the episode. Eh. It was filler. It gained some points with the final, FELICITY LIVES (mic drop) shot, if only for the fact that it will shut up all the assholes who've been saying it's definitely her in the grave.

 

But the rest - I've been in denial about the paralysis since I was spoiled for it. And I hate it. It just reeks fifties melodrama*. Just as badly as the baby mama drama reeks of soap opera.

I'm just stamping my feet at the moment, screaming "But I don't want it!" Someone stop me before I start getting nostalgic for the League of Assholes- whoops. Too late.

 

Oh, and in before "but it was part of the Batman comics? animated show?" because I. Don't. Care.

 

*A specific An affair to remember smell

Edited January 21, 2016 by arjumand

[statsgirl]

Maybe the decision of whether family is allowed in the recovery room or not is based on the architecture of the hospital?  When I had day surgery a few years ago, we were shuffled over to lie side by side like infants in a nursery while the nurses waited to see if we were going to react badly to the effects of the anesthesia.  Having family members in there would have hindered the nurses as they were working on multiple patients taking vitals etc, and I cringe at the thought of them bringing all those germs in.

 

In a bigger operation, when my father had his bypass surgery, it took three days for him to be able to recognize us.  It sounds like Felicity had a pretty big operation with The Doctor from Central City, so it doesn't make sense to me to let family in so they can watch her be unconscious. They can do that when she's in her room in  a couple of hours.

 

I liked the hospital room set. It seemed very realistic to me, enough that I wondered if they had shot it in a real hospital room.

 

Since I'm on the subject, I was really not impressed with Oliver's screams. I felt like they were too middle of the road and either quiet heroic suffering or primal animal screams would have worked better.

I assumed he was screaming to play to the Conklin and Reiter audiences. If they don't get their pain, they would just up the torture but too many screams and they wouldn't believe it of this tough guy.

Edited January 21, 2016 by statsgirl

[Last Time Lord]

Can Anarchy take over as the season villain? Please? He is so much more interesting than Darhk.

[blackwing]

I'm so tired of the flash forward gimmick.  Seems like a very lazy trope that all the "hot" shows (How to Get Away with Murder, Quantico, etc) are using, and I'm disappointed it has come to "Arrow".  We already had to suffer through the flashback scenes every episode, and now we are going to get these flash forwards which reveal a minutia of info each week.  Enough already.  I actually don't care who dies, just as long as they get on with it.

 

I'm also really tired of Damian Dahrk.  The character is so one note and I'm tired of his telekinesis.  Clearly he is super powered, so why doesn't Oliver just call Barry over to team up so they can fight super powers with super powers?  Why doesn't Oliver bring Laurel to the fight?  At least with her stupid Canary Cry he might have a chance of disabling Dahrk.  Shooting arrows and punching at him just isn't cutting it.

 

Interestingly, Dahrk called his wife "my Ruve", and Neal McDonough's wife is named Ruve according to Wikipedia.

[Happy Harpy]

I don't know if this was mentioned, but UGH at Reiter calmly saying something like "whatever Oliver does in the woods to satisfy his needs is none of my business". 

 UGHx10

I don't think it was, but it's probably because an interesting number of posters seem to FF the flashbacks :D

(PS: I looove your profile picture. The King of Snark!)

[johntfs]

 

Provided they play it out well, I think it's a good tease like the flash forward in the premier.  What I liked about it is that when Oliver asked Felicity is she's okay, she replied "Are you?"  She maybe be furious with him, but she still cares.

 

Felicity was so supportive of Oliver all through this episode, too supportive considering his behaviour, it has to be something really, really bad to cause Felicity to go so cold toward him.  The speculation goes on....

Maybe something's wrong with my emotional perceptions, but I didn't see FlashForward Felicity as being cold to Oliver so much as Felicity trying to hold onto the ragged edge of her own self-control.  Here's a question.  Where does Felicity wear her ring?  A good part of her right hand was concealed.  Also, she and Oliver apparently rode in the same vehicle.  Maybe they're not quite as broken up as people think.  Unless, of course, there's been confirmation of the break-up in previous episodes.  Which seems unlikely since it was this episode that confirmed Felicity as not being dead in the FlashForward.

[AyChihuahua]

Maybe something's wrong with my emotional perceptions, but I didn't see FlashForward Felicity as being cold to Oliver so much as Felicity trying to hold onto the ragged edge of her own self-control.  Here's a question.  Where does Felicity wear her ring?  A good part of her right hand was concealed.  Also, she and Oliver apparently rode in the same vehicle.  Maybe they're not quite as broken up as people think.  Unless, of course, there's been confirmation of the break-up in previous episodes.  Which seems unlikely since it was this episode that confirmed Felicity as not being dead in the FlashForward.

Engagement rings are worn on the left hand, which was clearly visible...and bare.

 

Additionally, as mentioned by others, one of the two showrunners, Wendy Mericle, confirmed that the flash-forward is exploring Oliver and Felicity being "cold and distant."

 

I'm more curious re why they need to explore that AGAIN. That was nearly all of S3. I am halfway convinced that this is all just Guggie's revenge for the audience not enjoying S3. He'll just give it to us again.

Edited January 21, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[statsgirl]

Wendy Mericle confirmed that Felicity is not wearing her ring in an interview.

 

Given how touchy/huggy they are as a couple, I expected some sort of physical connection if only Oliver reaching out for Felicity's hand, if they were good.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, they leave a gigantic distance between them in the limo, that's staged to give the viewer pause and go, "why aren't they touching?" And then you realize they barely look at each other, and Felicity isn't wearing the ring.

[kes0704]

I finally watched the episode and it was...okay. It's certainly not going to dethrone 408 in my thinking as the worst episode of the season. The biggest problem I had was that it was kind of boring. I kept checking the time to see how much longer it had to run, which I've never really done before in an episode of Arrow.

I'd prepared myself for all of the "heartbreaking" moments the cast and reviewers teased before the episode aired but they flashed by so quickly or were intercut with random fight scenes that they lost some of their resonance for me. I also wasn't completely floored by the end minutes as hyped by early reviewers. I was just happy to see Felicity alive so that I could take a character off the death watch 2016 list.

There was so much to story mine in terms of character moments after 409 so I'm disappointed with what we got. It just didn't feel particularly balanced to me, probably because I expected something so much better. When did this show become so incredibly predictable?

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, they leave a gigantic distance between them in the limo, that's staged to give the viewer pause and go, "why aren't they touching?" And then you realize they barely look at each other, and Felicity isn't wearing the ring.

It couldn't have been more obvious that they've split if Felicity had turned to glare at Oliver and said "Hey, remember how I dumped you a couple months ago and returned your mother's engagement ring because you lied to me about your kid?"

 

If it's going to this late in the season, I am curious how/if they can fix it before the finale. If they won't, or they'll just do what they did last season, have them be back together for no real discernible reason five minutes from the very end. Really starting to think they won't end the season together, but then it'd be tough to set them up for a (maybe failed) wedding in the 100th episode.

[Mauison]

Overall, a somewhat boring episode (especially the flashbacks - don't care about them anymore) but I'm glad they quickly revealed that it wasn't Felicity in the grave.  I was almost positive it wasn't Felicity since the earlier flashback in the season showed Barry showing up late to the funeral.  If it had been Felicity, there's no way he would've been late.  When they showed the scene of the entire graveyard, I thought military graveyard right away, since all of the headstones looked in perfect order by rows and columns.  Then they showed the closeup of the one headstone with some sort of possible military insignia on it.  I thought Diggle right away, or maybe even Lyla, since they're both former military.  But Felicity's reaction makes me think Diggle but I really hope not.

[Moya the Leviathan]

At this point he'd better be PHENOMENAL in bed, bc he doesn't have anything else going for him.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED. forscience.

[bijoux]

Maybe the nurse took the ring off in the ER so it wouldn't screw up the MRI machine?  Or maybe she knows,unlike Oliver, that things go missing in the hospital around unconscious patients.

 

Oliver said that now that Quentin's given up when he used to meet Darhk, it's not safe for him to go home but there's room in the bunker for him to stay. Okay, that should be interesting.  And how are they going to keep Donna safe now that she's dating Quentin?

 

.

Don't they remove jewellery before operation? I've been told that even nail polish is removed.

I wonder how it's going to play when Donna wants to go back to his place. 'Oh, it's a mess. I haven't run a vacuum cleaner in three years. Let's hop on over to a hotel.'

[Genki]

Episodes that come back form Hiatus are used to move past the lingering storyline/cliffhanger and set up the plot going forward, which usually leads to them not  being as enjoyable since they fail to live up to expectations and are usually set-up episodes.

 

For me it was a good episode. I kind of like that we didn't see the trope Oliver not leaving Felicity's side, shown in almost all fanfics where Felicity is injured. I understood his motivation and reasoning, and I loved all 3 scenes between Oliver and Felicity.

 

I loved seeing Lyla an Dig and I hope we see more of her, I've missed her. Diggle talking down and getting through to Oliver was nicely played and I'm not that interested in Andy, but there was some good work by DR.

 

Laurel was so Laurel and KC's acting choices continue to cause a disconnect for me as a viewer. She is just so cold, when Donna hugs her, sure you're taken aback but you know her, she was crying and her daughter is in surgery...-_- (Although her teasing her Dad was cute) I enjoyed Oliver calling her out.

 

She is a terrible mentor for Thea, she gave nothing in that scene with Thea. I think (hope) they are setting up Thea's storyline to be torn between the her bloodlust (Anarky) and normality (alex). I really quite enjoy the Thea/Anarky dynamic this episode much more interesting that Alex. There was some good chemistry between WH and Anarky.

 

The reveal of Mrs Darhk being all Lady McBeth was good and contrasted well with the Olicity Hospital Scene preceding it only to segued into a parallel with Felicity/Oliver in the Flash Forward. It intrigues me going forward.

 

So for me overall, a set-up episode but not so terrible and not that boring (except for the flashbacks, even shirtless Oliver could save them) on rewatch.

[bijoux]

I find it surprising that the scenes with Oliver and Felicity in the present day didn't include more touching. Especially to contrast with the flash forward.

[tv echo]

Incidentally, when they cut to Oliver walking to the limo in the flash forward scene, there was a glimpse of part of a tombstone with the name "Brie Thorpe" on it.  Does that name have any significance in the DC universe?

Edited January 21, 2016 by tv echo

[bijoux]

No clue about Brie Thorpe, but how are Felicity and Oliver still riding in the back of a limo without having panic attacks?

[statsgirl]

For me it was a good episode. I kind of like that we didn't see the trope Oliver not leaving Felicity's side, shown in almost all fanfics where Felicity is injured. I understood his motivation and reasoning, and I loved all 3 scenes between Oliver and Felicity.

I'm glad that they had him react in an Oliver-type way, and that Felicity understood him enough to know that.  And it leaves room for them to emotionally grow Oliver slowly.

I wonder how it's going to play when Donna wants to go back to his place. 'Oh, it's a mess. I haven't run a vacuum cleaner in three years. Let's hop on over to a hotel.'

 

I'd like to see Quentin get out of that one.  Maybe Donna suggests the loft guest bedroom, if Oliver stays at Felicity's bedside.

 

I think they take off nail polish so that they can monitor the oxygen level. If your nails turn blue, it's not enough.  Nail polish also interferes with the finger probe.

Edited January 21, 2016 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

I'm glad that they had him react in an Oliver-type way, and that Felicity understood him enough to know that.  And it leaves room for them to emotionally grow Oliver slowly.

 

You could even see him grow throughout the episode. He thought that leaving her in the hospital without him was 'unforgivable', which means that if Felicity were to ever be in the hospital again, he'd be right by her side. I think in the end I was okay with what he did because he learned in the same episode that what he did was wrong and doesn't plan on really doing it again. 

[Delphi]

No clue about Brie Thorpe, but how are Felicity and Oliver still riding in the back of a limo without having panic attacks?

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-beast-presidents-limo-2015-2

In regards Thorpe it could be a nod to Sable Thorpe from Batman Beyond or the UK comic distributor Thorpe & Porter.

[johntfs]

 

For me it was a good episode. I kind of like that we didn't see the trope Oliver not leaving Felicity's side, shown in almost all fanfics where Felicity is injured. I understood his motivation and reasoning, and I loved all 3 scenes between Oliver and Felicity.

 

I think those fanfics kind of miss the point of Oliver.  If somebody hurts Felicity, Oliver isn't going to wait by her side at the hospital.  He's going to suit up and try to kill the fuck out of whoever put her there.  He'll come back to hug and cuddle after he's turned them into a dead pincushion.

[AyChihuahua]

I think those fanfics kind of miss the point of Oliver.  If somebody hurts Felicity, Oliver isn't going to wait by her side at the hospital.  He's going to suit up and try to kill the fuck out of whoever put her there.  He'll come back to hug and cuddle after he's turned them into a dead pincushion.

He said himself that leaving her was unforgivable, and by the end of the episode supposedly learned not to leave her again. So I think saying they miss the point of who he is is pretty unfair.

 

I don't see why they couldn't have gone middle ground. He doesn't have to sit by her bedside the whole time. That should be obvious. This is an action show. But the show went out of it's way to show how disconnected he was from her. Maybe they'll get the balance better in the next few episodes. Until she dumps him, I mean.

Edited January 21, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[lemotomato]

There's hope that slowly but surely, Oliver will stop being a big dumb pine tree and become a real boy.

[dtissagirl]

I expect him to be a real boy from mid-May to mid-December every year, but then around Christmas time every single year, something will happen that'll dumb him down until next May again. For as long as he shall live.

 

Hey, last year he was a real boy from mid-May to early October, that's two and a half extra months he put in this time around.

Edited January 21, 2016 by dtissagirl

[AyChihuahua]

There's hope that slowly but surely, Oliver will stop being a big dumb pine tree and become a real boy.

I think my main problem is that he forgets whatever he's learned as soon as plot requires him to. He learned that he's better off with his team (1) v. MM at the end of S1; (2) v. Slade at the end of S2; and (3) v. RAG  at the end of S3. Why'd he forget the first two times? He learned that lying to his loved ones does not end well how many times now? (I give him a pass re lying about being the Arrow, because, duh, it's a superhero show.) So yeah, by the end of the episode he learned that when someone he loves has been shot and is in the hospital, he should, to the maximum extent practicable, stay with that person. How long will that lesson last? Until plot demands he have another poorly-planned Hulkfest rageout?

 

It would be nice if they at least had him make new mistakes to learn from, but it's pretty much the same several things over and over and over. 

I expect him to be a real boy from mid-May to mid-December every year, but then around Christmas time every single year, something will happen that'll dumb him down until next May again. For as long as he shall live.

That is so disheartening.

[dtissagirl]

Sorry. I've adjusted my expectations when I realized that, when they said this season was gonna be lighter, what they actually meant was the first 9 episodes of the season were gonna be lighter. So I find it funny now.

[lemotomato]

I expect him to be a real boy from mid-May to mid-December every year, but then around Christmas time every single year, something will happen that'll dumb him down until next May again. For as long as he shall live.

Hey, last year he was a real boy from mid-May to early October, that's two and a half extra months he put in this time around.

I think that with the exception of 408, he has pretty much stayed on the path to becoming a real boy all of this season, even last night's episode. How much longer it will last and how much of it sticks, I don't know, but after enduring last season, I'll take what I can get.

[dtissagirl]

I do have hopes for Oliver. Barring the demon spawn of stupidity, he's been a delight of solid A+ characterization for me.

 

I just don't have any expectations that the writing will suddenly stop making him dumb if the plot demands it, at selected points related to sweeps and/or premieres/finales. So I'm choosing to find it funny as hell, because that's how I cope with bad writing.

[Genki]

I think Oliver is so used to compartmentalising and sacrificing his wants and needs for the greater good, it's second nature to him, and that is what he was doing by not visiting Felicity in hospital.

 

If you view it as a continuation from 4.09

- Dahrk attacked the Bay event.

- Dahrk Attack the Holiday party and abducted Felicity, Diggle & Thea, Oliver agreed to and exchange, was double-crossed, used his back-up plan for everyone to get away.

- Then Dahrk orders a flat-out attack on Oliver and Felicity's limo.

 

From that point of view I can see Oliver is on a mission to get Dahrk off the playing board. Even if Felicity pulls through, for Oliver, it doesn't guarantee her safety form Darhk. So for Oliver the urgency to get rid of Dark, is there IMO, but in the end he failed to get him and fail to give Felicity the reassurance that Dark was no longer an issue, and therefore acknowledged that staying away for so long was not the right thing. Which is growth...

Edited January 21, 2016 by Genki

[johntfs]

He said himself that leaving her was unforgivable, and by the end of the episode supposedly learned not to leave her again. So I think saying they miss the point of who he is is pretty unfair.

 

I don't see why they couldn't have gone middle ground. He doesn't have to sit by her bedside the whole time. That should be obvious. This is an action show. But the show went out of it's way to show how disconnected he was from her. Maybe they'll get the balance better in the next few episodes. Until she dumps him, I mean.

 

"I'm a killer. I'm a murdering bastard, you know that. And there are consequences to breaking the heart of a murdering bastard." Bill from Kill Bill Volume 2

 

Oliver is not a "middle-of-the-road" guy.  He'll try to be, sometimes.  He'll make efforts for the sake for Felicity and people for whom he cares (or simply to maintain an appearance of harmless normality).  At Oliver's center is a barbed wire streak of loathing for what he perceives to his failures and inadequacies.  Consider his catchphrase, "You have failed this city!"  Not "You have hurt this city!" or even "You have betrayed this city!"  To Oliver, the ultimate crime is failure.

 

Oliver's time on and off the island, didn't really change him so much as revealed himself to himself and gave him the skills, knowledge and tools to channel his feelings outside of himself.  Without the island I figure that Oliver would likely have killed himself either deliberately or "accidentally" through a drug overdose or a car accident.  As the Hood, Arrow and now Green Arrow, Oliver can vent the anger he feels at himself toward deserving targets.

 

Of course Oliver wasn't going to simply sit in the hospital and wait for news.  He wouldn't have been able to hear anything over the mental din in his head crying "You did this!  "You failed her!" "She was hurt because of you!"  It's interesting that Oliver says that leaving Felicity's bedside was unforgivable even as she is clearly forgiving him.

[AyChihuahua]

"I'm a killer. I'm a murdering bastard, you know that. And there are consequences to breaking the heart of a murdering bastard." Bill from Kill Bill Volume 2

 

Oliver is not a "middle-of-the-road" guy.  He'll try to be, sometimes.  He'll make efforts for the sake for Felicity and people for whom he cares (or simply to maintain an appearance of harmless normality).  At Oliver's center is a barbed wire streak of loathing for what he perceives to his failures and inadequacies.  Consider his catchphrase, "You have failed this city!"  Not "You have hurt this city!" or even "You have betrayed this city!"  To Oliver, the ultimate crime is failure.

 

Oliver's time on and off the island, didn't really change him so much as revealed himself to himself and gave him the skills, knowledge and tools to channel his feelings outside of himself.  Without the island I figure that Oliver would likely have killed himself either deliberately or "accidentally" through a drug overdose or a car accident.  As the Hood, Arrow and now Green Arrow, Oliver can vent the anger he feels at himself toward deserving targets.

 

Of course Oliver wasn't going to simply sit in the hospital and wait for news.  He wouldn't have been able to hear anything over the mental din in his head crying "You did this!  "You failed her!" "She was hurt because of you!"  It's interesting that Oliver says that leaving Felicity's bedside was unforgivable even as she is clearly forgiving him.

Of course she forgave him. She ALWAYS forgives him. That is her primary function on the show half the time. That doesn't change the fact that what he did was wrong. (Thank god she WON'T forgive him for the BMD so quickly.)

 

Oliver Queen is not Bill. Bill was a very definite villain. Oliver is a budding superhero. He wants to marry Felicity. If he doesn't learn leaving her when she's hurt is wrong, why in the world would she marry him? She gives birth to his child, and he runs away bc he can't deal with her pain? She has a cancer scare and he runs away bc he can't deal with her pain and fear? She gets in a car accident and he can't deal with her pain?

 

Bill was a character in a two-part MOVIE. They cannot keep Oliver static forever, bc it's a tv show. It's not a snapshot, it's a documentary. And this show is not only about Oliver beating people up. It would have been cancelled long ago if it were. They also need to build him as a character and build his relationships and part of that includes growing and changing. I'm satisfied, more or less, that he seemed to learn not to do it again. Because if he didn't, if he continues to run away every time something happens, Felicity would be absolutely insane to continue in a relationship with him, and frankly, so would the rest of the team.

Edited January 22, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[johntfs]

The point isn't that Bill and Oliver are the same.  They are, however, characters who are true to their natures.  Bill could be kind, generous and even loving, but he was, at heart, a murdering bastard.  And when The Bride broke his heart that murdering bastardy was unleashed.

 

Felicity has a generous, forgiving nature.  She can be vengeful and angry, but she returns to her nature.  A mild illustration of this comes early in the third season when she decides to work for Ray after setting all his devices to emit porcupine farts.

 

I don't any of these character can truly change their natures, but they can choose to express other aspects of who they are.  If Felicity is in the hospital I think he will sit with her and worry.  He'll probably still step away to beat the holy living fuck out of the "deserving" at least some.  That's still his nature.  And I think Felicity accepts that.

 

Two points:  First, unless you're privy to something that I am not about the nature of the universe, Arrow is not a documentary.  It's still fiction, like a movie, albeit in longer form with more time to let things play out.  Character may change or reveal more about themselves, but their cores should remain fairly constant.

 

Secondly, what is BMD*?  For my own amusement I'm assuming it stands for Bowel Movement Dispute and portends Felicity and Oliver clashing over whether or not the toilet seat is left up or down.

 

*Seriously, folks, you're not being charged by the letter.  Just type stuff out.

[kismet]

Oliver ran away to Lian Yu when his best friend died. He didn't show up for his mother's funeral, abandoning Thea who had just watched her mother get murdered in front of her to give himself up to Slade, thinking that he was also going to get killed basically leaving Thea with no brother too. He immediately went into hunt-down-the-killer mode when Sara was killed. I have no doubt he loves Felicity, but we've been shown again and again that this is how he copes. It's selfish and unhealthy, but it seems like this time, he's acknowledged that it's wrong instead of defending it (Mr. "If I grieve, no one else gets to."). So we'll have to disagree that his not being there for Felicity is out of the norm for him. I also think that relationships, like life, are about making mistakes and learning from them, not a "three strikes and you're out" system, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I agree that this is how he copes... I do appreciate that he apologized, it was a little bit of development. What I had hoped is that the writers could have moved a O/F sooner in the episode with her encouraging him to go into the field & get Darhk. They still could have had all the emotionally poignant scenes along with some top heavy action scenes at the start of the show. But if they had put it earlier in her hospital course it would have shown that OQ is learning. For drama purposes it had to be later in the episode, which frankly made the characters look bad and the pacing seem off. However, I'm trying to accept that the writers have limitations and I either need to learn to accept their limitations or move on.

 

If this were any other show, I'd totally be down with him making some mistakes and learning and growing from that experience. I'd eat it up with a spoon.

But this is Arrow. I have no confidence the writers will actually have the lesson 'stick' since they get such great mileage out of Oliver regressing over and over again in the exact same ways. And when that happens all the stuff we went through with Oliver as he was learning those lessons becomes pointless. So, to me, Felicity laying in the hospital and worrying that Oliver didn't want to be with her anymore isn't worth Oliver learning a lesson that will probably only last as long as the writers need it to.

That's probably the most annoying part is that it is just crappy writing. I feel like if this was real life or another show, Oliver would learn and show character growth - but Oliver is not permitted to learn because these writers have a horrible track record on showing & writing character growth. It's not the characters, its the writers that have a problem.

[wonderwall]

Secondly, what is BMD*?  For my own amusement I'm assuming it stands for Bowel Movement Dispute and portends Felicity and Oliver clashing over whether or not the toilet seat is left up or down.

 

*Seriously, folks, you're not being charged by the letter.  Just type stuff out.

baby mama drama :)

 

Ugh typing stuff out... so lazy :p

[kismet]

Don't they remove jewellery before operation? I've been told that even nail polish is removed.

Yes, they generally remove them to try to limit sources of infection during the operations. Also in this day and age of shady people & lawsuits, a lot of hospitals remove things of value and either lock them in a safe or give them to family so they are not lost or stolen and then the hospital is held responsible. A hospital can save your life, but sometimes that is not enough for people.

 

Nail polish is removed so that sensors, esp. oxygen sensors can get an accurate reading.

 

That being said, initially I was mad that OQ/SA made that comment - but then I thought perhaps he is trying to use humor & snark to cut through the awkward energy. 

[AyChihuahua]

*Seriously, folks, you're not being charged by the letter.  Just type stuff out.

Um, no?

Edited January 22, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Starfish35]

I have some theories about what's gone wrong with the flashbacks, and I sympathize - it's not easy to replot after other factors have forced you to deviate from your original plans, especially when you're fairly tied into an ending.

I'd like to hear your theories. Would you be interested in elaborating? :) Perhaps in the Bitterness thread?

[johntfs]

Um, no?

YR.  TIWS

 

 

Super pumped to find out Felicity's okay!!  I was really worried there for a while about the grave.  She is so great and brave in the hospital.  SHE is the strong one on the team. Her heart and light makes the team strong and this show will ABSOLUTELY fail without her!!  I don't even want to think about what happened for she and Oliver to be like that in the limo. But Oliver looked like he was in pain which I think is emotional pain about what him and Felicity are going through in that scene. 

 

I think it means the whole situation is fallout from Oliver releasing Anarky.  Whatever he does, I can't see Felicity demanding death and blaming Oliver over Damien Darkh.  Darkh was an established enemy.  The only way to avoid him being an enemy would have been for them to knuckle under or flee the city and leave it to Darkh.  With Anarky, there was very much a choice.

 

There was an interesting episode of Elementary where Sherlock negotiated with the leader of an anti-government militia - a person who despised the police and their agents as "lackeys of a corrupt system."  However, Sherlock pointed out that while he and the police where "lackeys," they were the only ones in a position to capture and punish the person who'd betrayed the leader to them in the first place.

 

Putting Anarky in Iron Heights might have loosened his tongue once he understood that Team Arrow eere the only ones positioned to get him his revenge against Darkh.  Instead Oliver released him and ultimately let him get away at the end.  In his impatience and desire to both avenge Felicity and make sure that she's safe, Oliver has made a mistake that's going to haunt them all.