All Seasons Talk: Votons and Humans on a Terraformed Earth

[maraleia]

A place to discuss particular episodes, arcs and moments from the show's run. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics and other places for show-related talk.

Edited July 29, 2015 by stacey

[Scarlett45]

There's a season 1 marathon on today if anyone is interested. I do like seeing all the episodes in a row.

[ramble]

They're also on Amazon Prime. I've been working my way through them when I remember. I'm hoping to make it all the way through before season 2 begins.

They were recently available OnDemand (Cox) until poof! they up & disappeared one day. Now it just shows the short web eps for the in between time as available. Odd.

[johntfs]

I really liked Doc Yewll killing Mayor Nikki.  There was such an "And... you're done" quality about it.

[Grammaeryn]

I'm all caught up thanks to Amazon. I dub this show Defiance: God Put Some Clothes on That Poor Girl. I have a couple questions. Mayor Nicki was an Indogene like the astronaut. But why did she bleed red blood and he didn't? Also, the Votan ship at the bottom of the mine is 3000 years old, right? How did the Earth Republic find out about it? I don't know if I missed something, these are legit plot holes, or just set up for future seasons. 

[Crim]

Mayor Nicki was an Indo-sapiens, so a hybrid. Maybe her red blood helped her infiltrate.

 

I forgot how the Earth Republic found out about the Votan ship. Didn't Mayor Nicki tell them at some point before the show began? Damn, I forgot so much about certain plot lines.

[DittyDotDot]

I recently got caught up as well--I don't think they ever said how the Earth Republic learned about the ship...maybe that's some of the backstory they will be giving us this season.  There were quite a few things that I wouldn't exactly call plot holes, but there was some definite backstory that they never covered in the show proper. There was a bunch of information they released for the video game that gave the backstory and explained this world better. I was so late to the party, that I instead read the thread over at TWoP to fill in some of these things. But I believe they are planning to delve into the history of this universe in the second season.

 

And yes Mayor Nikki was a hybrid, just like the astronaut guy--didn't he have red blood as well, though. He needed to be able to blend in and not get noticed when he had physicals, maybe just assumed his blood was red.

[TVSpectator]

I'm all caught up thanks to Amazon. I dub this show Defiance: God Put Some Clothes on That Poor Girl. I have a couple questions. Mayor Nicki was an Indogene like the astronaut. But why did she bleed red blood and he didn't? Also, the Votan ship at the bottom of the mine is 3000 years old, right? How did the Earth Republic find out about it? I don't know if I missed something, these are legit plot holes, or just set up for future seasons. 

 

I don't remember them explaining this on the show but I think we are supposed to take away that the two are not 100% alike. As with the Votan ship, yeah, I think that they did come here earlier but who really knows what the writers are planning on doing.

[shapeshifter]

Didn't Mayor Nicki smoke a hookah or something that transformed her body into human?

Edited to correct "Mayon" to "Mayor" because I was sleep typing after staying up late to download threads and witness Tubey's execution (hoping in vain for at least a temporary stay of execution)

Edited June 2, 2014 by shapeshifter

[TVSpectator]

Didn't Mayon Nicki smoke a hookah or something that transformed her body into human?

 

I don't remember that (although, you could be right) but I thought that she was on some kind of oxygen tank (or some kind of breathing mask). So, she was either sick or she wasconstantly  breathing through that thing.

[BungalowSummer]

 

Mayor Nicki was an Indo-sapiens, so a hybrid.

 

I must have missed something, because I don't recall this at all. Is this actual info from the show or the game, or an inference? I had assumed that Mayor Nicki was either a full Indogen who had been altered like the astronaut to have a human body, or a human who had somehow formed an alliance with Doc Yewll back when she was first elected Mayor. As for her inhaler, I figured she was suffering from emphysema because of smoking.

Edited June 2, 2014 by BungalowSummer

[DittyDotDot]

I thought they "grew" the astronaut from some original DNA-like a clone hybrid. Maybe I just inferred that though. And maybe I just assumed that Mayor Nikki was created in the same-ish way. Gosh I can't remember the specifics now. The inhaler and oxygen tank was supposed to be because she was suffering from emphysema, but it also could be that something was wrong with her because of her altered state...I really don't remember. She did smoke a hookah, but I assumed that was their way of showing the new and old traditions and values changing in this melding world. I didn't think it was the hookah that transformed her, but it very well could have been, I guess. I hope they do a better job of explaining some of this stuff in S2. I usually hate a lot of exposition and explanations, but they really didn't develop this world very well, did they?

[BungalowSummer]

They left a lot that awaits explanation, I think. Considering how many different players, plot threads, races and cultures and years of history there are to cover, I thought they did quite well.

At least they engaged my imagination enough that I do care about the characters, their fates and what happens in this world. I couldn't understand why it had lukewarm reviews and so much commentary was so harsh.

Much of the criticism seemed to center on the idea that a lot of Defiance is derivative from older sci-fi series. That didn't bother me at all. Most stories have been told and retold. I thought the re-telling in Defiance was original enough and I love the characters. Datak and Stahma are totally Shakespearean. I may be the only viewer who thinks Irisa is beautiful. The relationship between Nolan and Irisa is, IMO, a solid foundation for the show and it also works beautifully as a gateway to Votan cultures.

[DittyDotDot]

I agree about the characters being very well defined and interesting--I think Irisa is lovely as well--and I wouldn't be planning to watch S2 if I didn't.  I would agree that it is derivative of other sci fi, but that doesn't bother me too much as long as they put their own unique spin on it and make it interesting and able to stand on its own merit.  The main problem I had was I just didn't understand a lot of the history that the show never covered. I filled it in by reading the tread at TWoP, but if I was just a casual viewer and didn't seek out the more info, I doubt I would have continued watching past episode three. I just think they have a lot of balls in the air and at times have dropped a few--but hopefully they'll pick those back up this season.

[BungalowSummer]

The main problem I had was I just didn't understand a lot of the history that the show never covered. I filled it in by reading the tread at TWoP, but if I was just a casual viewer and didn't seek out the more info, I doubt I would have continued watching past episode three.

I agree that a casual viewer would start to flounder when trying to follow the cross-currents and back stories of all these characters and races. This is a show that demands a certain commitment. Part of that is because of the gaming tie-in. The viewer needs to engage in learning and understanding the characters and action almost as much as a gamer.

Personally, I don't mind the investment in energy and attention because I'm satisfied with the payoff in viewing pleasure. In this, Defiance owes a heckuva lot to the actors. IMO, the cast of Defiance is one of the best ensembles currently on tv.

I found the Wikipedia entry on Defiance had a lot of background "historical" info that helped me in the first few weeks of Season One. Syfy's show site was also helpful. (Syfy does many things wrong, but they generally have pretty good show sites with some solid extras.) Since I'm not a gamer, I had to rely on third-person reports for info from the game.

[GaT]

 

I found the Wikipedia entry on Defiance had a lot of background "historical" info that helped me in the first few weeks of Season One. Syfy's show site was also helpful. (Syfy does many things wrong, but they generally have pretty good show sites with some solid extras.) Since I'm not a gamer, I had to rely on third-person reports for info from the game.

This bothered me a lot. I ended up reading Wiki too, & there is a ton of information that never made it on to the show. Syfy says that you don't have to play the game to watch the show, but if they aren't going to give people the entire backstory, the show is just confusing. I shouldn't have to go other places to get background info on a show I watch on TV.

[DittyDotDot]

This bothered me a lot. I ended up reading Wiki too, & there is a ton of information that never made it on to the show. Syfy says that you don't have to play the game to watch the show, but if they aren't going to give people the entire backstory, the show is just confusing. I shouldn't have to go other places to get background info on a show I watch on TV.

 

That's where I found the show lacking also and can understand why it got a cool response and why the ratings weren't so great. Average viewers aren't going to invest that much time in the show, they'll watch it or they won't. I didn't have time to read the full Wiki and really was never that invested in the show to make me want to find the time. I found the discussions at TWoP to be very fascinating though, so I read through the whole thread and learned enough backstory to fill it in for me. Not all the information was necessary to enjoy and understand the show, but some was. Just the basic background on how the terraforming happened by accident made me view certain aspects of the show differently--that was never covered in the show proper, IIRC.

 

However, I did wonder if this was exactly how TPTB wanted me to feel--confused and conflicted--because I imagine that a great deal of humans and/or aliens in this new world feel this way as well. Do they all really know and understand what really happened to their planet? The history has only been 30ish years--with most of those years spent fighting wars--right? Has there really been time to reflect and work out the history and teach it to the population? How we look back on slavery and race relations now are a product of many generations of teaching our own history to the younger generations and slowly changing people's viewpoints. I guess what I'm saying is that even though I did find the show lacking, I am hoping that this was a conscious choice by TPTB to try and make me feel like one of it's own people--if that makes any sense--and I'm also hoping that once they fill in the history that it will make me see it all in a different light.

[johntfs]

I think the lack of in-show exposition dumping is deliberate and realistic.  In your own life do you ever say "My car's low, I need to go get gas." and then follow it up with "Because gas, also known as gasoline, is the fuel that drives the internal combustion engine that allows my car, aka automobile, to move?"

[DittyDotDot]

Well, no, but I also already know this information. I was talking about important plot points that they didn't explain, like the terra forming being an accident and not a deliberate attack by the aliens, which is what I assumed before I read the extra information not established in the show proper. This changed vastly how I viewed the race relations on the show once I found it out and made the show make a heck of a lot more sense in hindsight.

 

But like I said, it wasn't like I just couldn't follow it, I just found it lacking some. But since the characters were interesting I was willing to give them a bit of a pass for now and see where it leads.

[johntfs]

Well, no, but I also already know this information. I was talking about important plot points that they didn't explain, like the terra forming being an accident and not a deliberate attack by the aliens, which is what I assumed before I read the extra information not established in the show proper. This changed vastly how I viewed the race relations on the show once I found it out and made the show make a heck of a lot more sense in hindsight.

 

But like I said, it wasn't like I just couldn't follow it, I just found it lacking some. But since the characters were interesting I was willing to give them a bit of a pass for now and see where it leads.

 

 

That's the point, though, that you already know this.  And so do the people with whom you're talking.  Put it another way, in your life do you ever say something like "In a few days we're going to commeratre 9-11, which was when Islamic terrorists hijacked airplanes and crashed them into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, killing thousands of people and starting what we call the War on Terror?"

 

Basically, do you speak as though there is some audience of aliens watching and listening to you who need constant primers on Earth history and culture?  No?  Neither do I.  And for the most part, neither to the people on Defiance.  If you want context and information that isn't directly presented in the show, you can go to the Wiki.

[DittyDotDot]

I understand that, but not everybody has the time to go to the Wiki and wade through it. Basically, someone up-thread said they didn't understand why the ratings weren't higher and I was saying I understood because the show requires a lot more effort than the average viewer is willing to go through to fully understand and appreciate this universe.

Edited June 3, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[TVSpectator]

I understand that, but not everybody has the time to go to the Wiki and wade through it. Basically, someone up-thread said they didn't understand why the ratings weren't higher and I was saying I understood because the show requires a lot more effort than the average viewer is willing to go through to fully understand and appreciate this universe.

 

IMO, it seems to be the general complaint from a lot of the viewers who did not (or still do not) played the video game (that I have heard)---- was that in the Pilot, their was too much of a general background info gap that ended up making the viewer confused, conflicted, and frustrated with the show.  Overall, I would say that this show didn't have a really great start (although, SyFy promoted this show like it was no tomorrow) to it and if the general audience has to go to a Wiki to fill in missing gaps, then I think their is a problem with the writing.

 

In my opinion, SyFy (and the other shows in the NBC Universal ownership) tends to handled their online contents, amazingly.  They, know how to do webisodes and also how to handled other online content (and also they are awesome with their printed material), but all of it is just optional and not mandatory for to understand the basics of a TV show.

[Grammaeryn]

Maybe the problem is that we didn't have an entry-point character who was the audience proxy? That is usually an easy avenue to explain the world being built.  There's no John Crichton or Skye we can latch onto in Defiance. That could be why I really liked the astronaut episode because they finally explained a lot about the world.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Grammaeryn

[teixeira]

From what I remember, the astronaut was like a version 1.0 of the indogene human hybrid and the indogene got better at making the hybrids more human while Nikki was not breathing oxygen but something else. Nitrogen?

[millahnna]

Something like that.  But I agree he was a great character for finally getting to some of the world building on the show.  I love the extra content in the game (which, admittedly, I've not played much of due to wonky internet) and online, but they've got to get some of it into the show or those who aren't into that sort of thing will flock away in droves. 

 

As far as I can recall, they still haven't stated in show that the terraforming stuff was an accident have they?  I'll grant that the backstory allows for some room for interpretation (there's an awful lot of room for the theory that the "accident" was on purpose by some faction) on that one.  But from my own experience in the first season, knowing that rather radically changed my interpretation of pilot and I can see where it would have colored my view of the rest of last season had I not read up on backstory on the various wikis. 

[Grammaeryn]

I thought shenanigans when the Voton fleet exploded so that could be some type of terrorist group alien or human...

[millahnna]

It's been awhile since I read up but IIRC, it's been confirmed in the off show stuff (and I think mentioned in passing on show) that it was a terrorist thingy that started the arcfall.  But it hasn't been revealed who did it so they could go humans who screwed themselves or small cabal of aliens who screwed the rest of their people (i.e. most Votons wouldn't be involved or have knowledge of it at all).  Based on what they've laid out so far, I'm leaning towards the latter. 

[TVSpectator]

 

Maybe the problem is that we didn't have an entry-point character who was the audience proxy? That is usually an easy avenue to explain the world being built.  There's no John Crichton or Skye we can latch onto in Defiance. That could be why I really liked the astronaut episode because they finally explained a lot about the world.

 

Something like that.  But I agree he was a great character for finally getting to some of the world building on the show.  I love the extra content in the game (which, admittedly, I've not played much of due to wonky internet) and online, but they've got to get some of it into the show or those who aren't into that sort of thing will flock away in droves. 

 

As far as I can recall, they still haven't stated in show that the terraforming stuff was an accident have they?  I'll grant that the backstory allows for some room for interpretation (there's an awful lot of room for the theory that the "accident" was on purpose by some faction) on that one.  But from my own experience in the first season, knowing that rather radically changed my interpretation of pilot and I can see where it would have colored my view of the rest of last season had I not read up on backstory on the various wikis. 

 

Oh, I totally agree that they have to get the backstory (one way or another) onto the show. IMO, they need a Fish Out of Water type of character or they need to have a narrator narrate the show somehow (like how the main character on Burn Noticed did). They did try to do this with Irisa's dairy/journal entries but I don't remember ever hearing anymore voice overs past the Pilot episode.

 

Yeah, probably a Fish Out of Water type character could do it but if they do this, by this point, it seems kind of pointless. I mean, they are already going to have a new character (and probably more new characters since the Earth Republic is going to control Defiance) but the show is pointless without something there to explain the backstory.

 

As with the Archfall, I think that they did explain it was an accident and/or terrorists act by a human on the show but they also hinted that the Votans' hands were not clean either (and I think that it was hinted that it was a Votan plan along). So, I hope that they do come up with a story that it was a Votan spy (disguised as a human, like Mayor Nikkie) that caused the Archfall and I also hope that they won't reveal that the evil/shadowy Earth Republic did it to gain power (because, IMO, that would be just too stupid of a plot point. It would be a Revolution-ish type plot that I hope they would avoid).

Edited June 10, 2014 by TVSpectator

[jhlipton]

Since the whole "Tommy vs Nolan" kerfuffle started in Season 1 and spilled over to Season 2, I think this might be a better place to discuss it.

Others have said that Nolan regards loyalty highly. But I don't recall him ever being loyal (or even very nice) to Tommy. He was pretty condescending from the get-go, and now he expects Tommy to kow-tow and even ignore his duties as LawKeepeer just because Nolan says so. It's all one-sided.

So, yeah, Tommy hit him a second time, and this time break something!

Edited August 18, 2014 by jhlipton

[maczero]

Since the whole "Tommy vs Nolan" kerfuffle started in Season 1 and spilled over to Season 2, I think this might be a better place to discuss it.

Others have said that Nolan regards loyalty highly. But I don't recall him ever being loyal (or even very nice) to Tommy. He was pretty condescending from the get-go, and now he expects Tommy to kow-tow and even ignore his duties as LawKeepeer just because Nolan says so. It's all one-sided.

So, yeah, Tommy hit him a second time, and this time break something!

For the most part Nolan treated Tommy like a subordinate in season 1.  Which is what he was in relation to their jobs.  I don't recall any animosity that he showed toward Tommy.  If there was any animosity in their relationship it might have been from Tommy since it was pretty clear that he would've been chief lawkeeper if Nolan hadn't shown up.

Season 2 is when their problems start.  Nolan comes back to Defiance and takes Tommy's job within the span of a few hours.  Now becoming the lawkeeper was not Nolan's intention.  He was pretty much strong armed into the position by Amanda and Pottinger.  In any case Tommy's demoted and has to serve under Nolan again.  After that there's the incident where Nolan tries to hide evidence of the miners' involvement in a crime.  Tommy tells Pottinger what's up and Nolan sees this as a betrayal.  At this point, Nolan starts doing things like leaving Tommy out of investigations.  Tommy has enough and quits.  Nolan sleeps with Berlin and I guess it becomes a regular thing.  A normal guy would probably feel Tommy's had enough.  I mean you took his job and you're sleeping with his ex.  Not Nolan.  He actually taunts him with it like they're in high school.  And honestly the only reason he didn't hit Tommy back was because he wanted Tommy to snap and yet still put him in his place with a follow up threat.

Edited August 19, 2014 by maczero

[thewhiteowl]

I don't think many men really like the guy who first bangs their daughter. I think that's where it went bad for Nolan and Tommy.

[MDKNIGHT]

Remind me...do we know that Tommy was Irisa's first? 

 

I'm kind of confused as to why the ship that is talking to Irisa is underground and has been there for thousands of years.  That part of the mythology is hazy to me.  The Votans knew thier system was going to be destroyed (by their sun going nova was it?) 5000 years ago so they sent the first ship to do what?  And the Votans that looked like Irisa and the Jewish Irathian did something they weren't supposed to and whatever they were supposed to do they didn't.  From Irisa's visions I THINK what happened was they were supposed to terraform earth to Votan specifications but Proto Irisa saw there were people on the planet so she skuttled the ship.  Then after 5000 years in stasis the Arks come in and when they get blown up the terraforming goes wonky.  Am I right about all that?I don't get how the underground ship got here before the other ships.  And if Proto Irisa cared about the humans why is the ship running around making only Votans immortal or whatever?

[thewhiteowl]

@MDKNIGHT, I don't know that they ever stated it but it seemed pretty clear to me that Tommy was her first. YMMV

[BungalowSummer]

I'm not sure where to post this, as it's from a scene in "Doll Parts," but it's something that touches on the entire premise of the show: can humans and aliens learn to live together? It's a poignant question, since recent events show how hard it is for humans to live together.

Arkbrained Irisa screams at Nolan that he's killed so many Votans, that their lives mean nothing to him. She says that the Earth is an abomination, not because of Arkfall or terraforming, but because of humans. That's why we have to be destroyed, to remake Earth into a Votan paradise.

To that, I say "Fuck you Irisa, and your Kaziri, too." Votans were no angels back in their old star system. They had their own history of conquest, brutality and subjugation.

I want to know why, when the supposedly enlightened Votans got here and found the planet already occupied, they couldn't terraform the Moon, or Mars, or a moon of Jupiter or Saturn. Or damn well find another system among the thousands they probably passed on their way here.

Once the Pale Wars broke out, were the only atrocities committed by humans? Weren't billions of humans killed by Votans? Aren't they planning more? Didn't the godawful terraforming destroy the entire planet's ecology?

Irisa's rant enrages me. It especially enrages me that she puts all that on Nolan. Yes, Nolan killed a lot of Votans. But he was also one of the few who finally put a stop to the killing. He was born in the old world and lost everything. I find his forbearance and generosity amazing, given the circumstances of his life.

I know it's the Arkbrain talking more than Irisa, although she seems to have largely bought into it. I really want to see Nolan kick the Arkbrain's ass. EMP that sucker.

[CoderLady]

Agree with all of this. The Arkbrain is a dangerous, homicidal (literally homicidal, since it's focusing on only eliminating humans) monomaniac with advanced weaponry operating from a well-entrenched position. Too bad they can't nuke it from orbit -- that is, if anyone could actually get a ship into space -- without causing serious damage to Earth. It will have to be outsmarted, which is always much more interesting.

[Irishmaple]

I won't see the episode till next week, but I've been dreading that scene since I saw it in the preview because it is beyond unfair.  It enraged me for the same reasons it did you, Bungalow Summer.  The Castithans conquered the Irathients but now the Castithans are better than humans?  Doc Yewll carried out experiments on unwilling humans and that makes her more worthy than someone like Amanda who kept her sister alive when they were both young, and now preserves her sister's memory and her business?  I've watched the Tarrs prey on their fellow Votans since episode one and some of Yewll's science is still not in the public interest.  Both species have a history of darkness and a history of great achievement.  I'll be grinding my teeth when the show airs here next Thursday night.  I'm really struggling with the characterization of Irisa this season.  Manipulating and infecting Tommy did not make me happy.  She shows no reluctance or hesitation or regret any more.  If the 'real' Irisa is still in there, I don't see her anymore.

[Chaos Theory]

Arkbrained Irisa screams at Nolan that he's killed so many Votans, that their lives mean nothing to him. She says that the Earth is an abomination, not because of Arkfall or terraforming, but because of humans. That's why we have to be destroyed, to remake Earth into a Votan paradise.

I want to know why, when the supposedly enlightened Votans got here and found the planet already occupied, they couldn't terraform the Moon, or Mars, or a moon of Jupiter or Saturn. Or damn well find another system among the thousands they probably passed on their way .

But its and old sci fi trick and not the first time it has been done this way by angry child to their "parent". See Cavil's rant on Battlestar Galactica. Hell the whole cylon plan was because humans were so vile and kinda deserved it. And part of the plot was....did they have a point?

Now we have voltans looking at humans and being both and exaggeration of some of our customs and a critic of others.

When you have aliens or robots on a show it is only a matter of time before one of them calls the human race a bunch of assholes that deserve to be wiped off the face of the universe. (Because we are....and we kinda do.)

Doesn't make Irsa right though. It never does.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[Izeinwinter]

This cliche kind of needs the critiquing party to have their house in better order in *some* respect or other, and going off what we have seen of votan society so far? Not so much. On the other hand, I am seriously doubting even the *kaziri* means what it is saying - That entire scene in the tent was contrived as fuck. Tommy magically cures himself while he has Nolan dead to rights, then none of the people with arkbrain in them notice he isn't one of them anymore? That's just.. quite hard to swallow. It seems more likely the AI is working Nolan, and from that perspective, the speech is about maximum emotional impact to unbalance him. 

 

But.. why not just infest Nolan, then? Gah. Confused.