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Spoilers and Spoiler Discussion: How's Your Head?

formerlyfreedom

By formerlyfreedom
in Sleepy Hollow [V]

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blixie

blixie

(edited)

Goffman appears to know he's fucked in the fandom universe, he made his bed and he has to lie in it, so now it's just managing "expectations", he even uses that to chastise people for daring to have expectations when the show is "always changing and growing".  This show and certainly Goffman in particular hasn't *earned* the trust of the audience, it's clear their success was just stupid luck,and from the minute they hired Goffman he's been determined to correct and learn fans that this show was ALWAYS about Epic Crane Love, which will broaden that fan base. Funny how all he's done is winnow it away in droves.

 

Shut the entire fuck up.

Edited by blixie
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The Cake is a Pie
The Cake is a Pie

I'm an optimist. Why not a Henry-Katrina murder-suicide?

DJG1122
DJG1122

Is that statue of Grace Dixon really Grace or is it Abbie?

catrox14
catrox14

I do not care about Hawley past. I care about Ichabod and Abbie being witnesses. This is why the order of 18 episodes is problematic for the show. Because this is a filler. And I am becoming increasin

Miss Dee

Miss Dee

I have to admit, while I saw a lot of ducking direct answers in that interview, the way he talked about Katrina made me think they're doing something with her that's a game changer. If I had to bet, I think it would be that she's going Full Evil. That could be why they needed to shoehorn her in so much on the first half, because they needed the audience to spend time with her to get us invested (which happened, but possibly not in the way they expected). That could also be why they're doing flashbacks, to show us how this makes sense for the character.

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BigEasygirl

BigEasygirl

(edited)

Goffman decided to ruin SH to make a failed character relevant. What a gross miscalculation. They had a chance to make Katrina interesting after the Weeping Lady episode without turning the show on its head with consecutive poorly written episodes full of misogynistic tropes and racist overtones.

Most viewers watch this show for the Apocalypse, Crane and Abbie (with a side of Jenny, Irving and Corbin), all of which has been adversely effected by this need to promote Katrina. I will forever resent the intentional dumbing down of Crane and the Apocalyptic theme, the marginalization of Abbie, and the sidelining of Jenny and Irving to prop this character. So no, I don't care if she's evil or not. The price the show paid in quality wasn't worth it, and I'm not sure it can get back on track after all the damage that's been done to it. At least not with Goffman and his Katrina loving buddy Kim at the helm.

Edited by Reese
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Amethyst

Amethyst

I have to admit, while I saw a lot of ducking direct answers in that interview, the way he talked about Katrina made me think they're doing something with her that's a game changer. If I had to bet, I think it would be that she's going Full Evil. That could be why they needed to shoehorn her in so much on the first half, because they needed the audience to spend time with her to get us invested (which happened, but possibly not in the way they expected). That could also be why they're doing flashbacks, to show us how this makes sense for the character.

 

I hope you're right, Miss Dee.  Viewers have no reason to care about Katrina, much less trust her.

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savinggrace

savinggrace

(edited)

I've been trying to get clues from social media about who bites it. I read that filming is going on until January so whoever is still on set right now is making it.

 

Nicole and Tom are the quietest on social media but obviously aren't going anywhere. John Noble is also confirmed to be still filming from various articles.

 

Katia Winter is unfortunately still filming so she ain't going nowhere.  A week ago she instagramed a picture of herself on set with Orlando Jones and Jill Marie Jones -- the actress who plays his wife. It's not obvious whether Orlando and Jill were filming or just visiting the set.

 

Lyndie Greenwood (Jenny) has been suspiciously quiet. Her instagram has a lot of recennt personal pics with relatives --like she's possibly back home-- and no suggestion that she is on set. Makes me wonder. If they kill her off there will be a shitstorm of epic proportions.

 

I surmised from twitter that Matt Barr (Hawley) may have wrapped filming last week. Someone --from North Carolina where they film-- posted a pic with him and said they were glad to meet him and were going to miss seeing him around.  I guess it's possible he's survived the finale and exits in a later episode unless they have an incredibly short lead time from filming to airdate. It's also possible the person's pic posted belatedly and Matt is long gone.

Edited by savinggrace
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phoenics

phoenics

If they kill off Jenny there will be hell to pay. The ratings will literally fall into the toilet and I will be so glad.

I'll feel badly for Lyndie - but part of me wants to tell her "I told you to stop pimping Katia!" because she should have known that KW would be fine and that SHE was fair game to be axed.

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DearEvette

DearEvette

(edited)

http://www.screenspy.com/tv/sleepy-hollow-scoop-10-things-know-akeda/

 

#5 makes me happy

 

#8 makes me really nervous.  It has already been speculated here, but I am so afraid for Jenny now. 

 

I wondered during the season premiere if that fake out, wasn't just a little prophetic.  If Jenny and Katrina were dead by Season's end and Ichabod and Abbie go into killer training mode.  On the one hand that would be kinda cool because it makes the series go a bit darker (and Katrina would be dead), but on the other hand...I don't want Jenny to die. 

 

There is this one picture of Abbie looking like she is in incredible pain and Ichabod is holding her from behind.  I just assumed she'd been hurt but what if she's crying because of Jenny? 

 

Please, please tell me they wouldn't do that to us? 

 

eta: found the picture:

 

Ichabbie_zps27927686.jpg

Edited by DearEvette
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savinggrace

savinggrace

That pic does look like Ichabod is trying to console her. Like I posted above, it does not appear that Lyndie Greenwood is still filming.

 

I'd be okay with Jenny dying only if Crane also suffers a monumental loss, namely Katrina. I don't think Henry would count as a loss as he is a psycho. Since it doesn't seem Katrina is going away Jenny's death would be another unfair sacrifice for the Mills family and a devastating blow for Abbie. The writers had better avoid social media that night if they kill off Jenny.

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Indi

Indi

#1 We'll see.

 

#2 Typical Ichabbie teasing without meaning.

 

#3 YAY!

 

#4 I don't think it's possible to emasculate him even more. His luuuv for Katrina has done more than enough damage.

 

#5 Oh please! Ichy has no trouble going indignant on his wife's ass one episode and trusting and declaring his undying love the next. That means that on episode 12 he'll be licking her boots.

 

#6 That's the only Jenny mention, which makes me fear #8

 

#7 Meh.

 

#8 If it's Jenny, it better not be a permanent thing.

 

#9 I wonder what bullshit Ichy has to say to Abbie about sacrifice. Maybe something like "I sacrificed you once for my family and I'll do it again with ease!"

 

#10 They won't kill him. John Noble is a regular. *yawn*

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HalcyonDays

HalcyonDays

Oh man, that looks really good. It sounds good. I know they hype of these things of course, but tying up the loose ends and answering questions  - finally.

 

#5  Makes me so giddy happy. Just let the bloody mess end. And make it permanent.

#8  Makes me very worried.

#9  Is a LONG time coming and l'm looking very much to this. Very much!

 

Maybe this show isn't lost completely (yeah right)

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topanga

topanga

The ep looks good. But how does Abbie end up on a motorcycle? I know I'll find out on the 1st, but she's never been around a motorcycle in 1 1/2 seasons. In my mind, Abbie wouldn't ride one because she recognizes how dangerous they are. But maybe I'm reading too much into this...

 

Ichabod and Abbie on a motorcycle does make for a pretty screen shot, however.

 

Will Abbie finally make Crane put his money where his mouth is when it comes to Henry and Katrina? Or will she once again be the voice of reason who then allows Crane to do the exact opposite of what she said in order to save Katrina and try to redeem Henry? I sure hope this isn't another fake-out.

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BigEasygirl

BigEasygirl

(edited)

Okay, this is more like it. I'm stoked that the CFD crap is finally ending and hopefully a-hole Crane with it. I want real Ichabod back. I'm worried about Jenny though too. But if she dies (hopefully it isn't permanent), WhisperWitch better be right behind her.

Edited by Reese
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chrisvee

chrisvee

I'm seriously concerned for Jenny. If they kill her but leave Katrina alive...fandom may actually explode.

Crazy idea here but what if Ichabod gets close to defeating/binding Henry but Powerful!Witch!Katrina makes a return (finally) and saves Henry?

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savinggrace

savinggrace

Okay, this is more like it. I'm stoked that the CFD crap is finally ending and hopefully a-hole Crane with it. I want real Ichabod back. I'm worried about Jenny though too. But if she dies (hopefully it isn't permanent), WhisperWitch better be right behind her.

 

Nah. I think they need to commit to deaths on this show. The deaths won't mean much if the audience knows the person is going to pop up as a friendly ghost later.

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HalcyonDays

HalcyonDays

Personally, I am putting my money on Irving right now.

 

Watching that Movie Trailer, if you watch the scene right after Tom Mison's name is shown, you'll see Crane standing there, saying something. If you look at his left hand and to the left of his hand, you can make out the leg, boot and hand of someone lying on the broken church pew.

 

I believe it's Irving.

 

If I am correct...what a waste.

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DkNNy79

DkNNy79

Personally, I am putting my money on Irving right now.

 

Watching that Movie Trailer, if you watch the scene right after Tom Mison's name is shown, you'll see Crane standing there, saying something. If you look at his left hand and to the left of his hand, you can make out the leg, boot and hand of someone lying on the broken church pew.

 

I believe it's Irving.

 

If I am correct...what a waste.

I was worried for Jenny, but your theory makes a lot of sense.  If Irving dies, it doesn't mean he won't be on the show anymore, it just means that he would be one of Moloch's soldiers since Henry owns his soul.

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BigEasygirl

BigEasygirl

(edited)

Personally, I am putting my money on Irving right now.

 

Watching that Movie Trailer, if you watch the scene right after Tom Mison's name is shown, you'll see Crane standing there, saying something. If you look at his left hand and to the left of his hand, you can make out the leg, boot and hand of someone lying on the broken church pew.

 

I believe it's Irving.

 

If I am correct...what a waste.

 

Although killing Irving sucks too, things could get interesting since Henry owns his soul (although I prefer him as the police Captain).

Edited by Reese
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savinggrace

savinggrace

^Normally, I would agree. But in this case, I'm willing to fanwank it for Jenny.

 

Normally I'd be fanwanking with you but there are already 4 people on the show who technically should be dead: Ichabod, Abraham, Katrina and Henry. There are way too many Walking Dead on the show already.

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chrisvee

chrisvee

Personally, I am putting my money on Irving right now.

 

Watching that Movie Trailer, if you watch the scene right after Tom Mison's name is shown, you'll see Crane standing there, saying something. If you look at his left hand and to the left of his hand, you can make out the leg, boot and hand of someone lying on the broken church pew.

 

I believe it's Irving.

 

If I am correct...what a waste.

Crap. I think you're right. That gets him out of his somewhat unsolvable prison problem and sort of replaces the Andy role.

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BigEasygirl

BigEasygirl

But that's just the thing.  Three out of those 4 are completely unnecessary to the show's narrative--at least in my opinion.  I think Jenny is worth more than Abraham (unless he's headless Headless) and certainly Katrina and Henry (especially in his guise as the Crane's whiny brat of a son).  Just on principle, I don't want Jenny sacrificed because the show unwisely used up all their "undead" cards on characters I think it could have done without.

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Danny Franks

Danny Franks

Hey showrunners, make sure you kill one of the awesome, interesting characters of colour, but keep the bland white folks alive! You know which side your bread is buttered on.

 

Honestly, I don't even like Jenny that much, but if she's killed while that lanky streak of nothing, Hawley sticks around, I'll be seriously annoyed.

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phoenics

phoenics

I can't even talk right now - the thought of them killing off Jenny or Irving makes me literally fly into a blind, mute rage.

I remember thinking the premiere was going to be prophetic - and that the show would kill off Katrina and Jenny. Katrina I was like "Okay!" about, but Jenny I was like "Noooooooo!".

If they do kill off Jenny, Katrina better be DEAD DEAD DEAD at the end of the season.

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Amethyst

Amethyst

I'm tentatively excited for The Akeda, going from that synopsis.  Automatically a plus if they wrap up the CFD bullshit.

 

#8 may not imply Jenny's death, but could be a number of things.  Jenny having her soul taken away, becoming a Horseman, or being hauled off to Purgatory or even Hell.  Has Hell been addressed on the show?  

 

I know they said "fatal" but I don't even want to think about losing Jenny.  Especially if both Katrina and Henry are still around.  I think the death will be Hawley.

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HalcyonDays

HalcyonDays

I swear, if it's Jenny dies and freaking Katrina is still breathing at the end of this episode...

 

You know damn well that with Goffman at the helm, Katrina will be there for a long time. In fact, she'll be the one to bury Ichabod and Abbie once they've completed their Witness duties and inevitably die., all the while Abraham is drooling at her heels, repeating "yes dear" over and over again....God, I'm bitter.

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Amethyst

Amethyst

So, the EW has a spoiler that there will be a "departure of a beloved character". That really sounds like someone is going to be gone gone, not just converted into the undead. I swear, if it's Jenny dies and freaking Katrina is still breathing at the end of this episode...

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/11/28/spoiler-room-sleepy-hollow-once-spoilers/

 

The "beloved" part is what worries me.  Bad enough that Irving and Jenny have been benched all season, but to kill off one of them in midseason finale, no less... that's just painful.  Still hoping they mean Hawley.

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savinggrace

savinggrace

(edited)

I'd love to believe it's Hawkey but in what universe is he beloved?

 

I thought I was in the minority in liking Hawley but apparently only hardcore Sleepyheads--many of whom are on Tumblr-- hate him. The response to Hawley on Facebook is overwhelmingly positive. Even several of the fancasts have come around to liking him after the Heartless and Mama episodes.

 

That said. I doubt Hawley is the "beloved" departing character. To me the spoilers imply someone we've known a while which brings us back to Jenny or Irving. Killing Hawley would not have the sort of emotional resonance described in that first spoiler article. I also think that article dropped a hint "You hurt us to the core" that suggests it's a core member of the team and not the newbie.

Edited by savinggrace
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chrisvee

chrisvee

I thought I was in the minority in liking Hawley but apparently only hardcore Sleepyheads--many of whom are on Tumblr-- hate him. The response to Hawley on Facebook is overwhelmingly positive. Even several of the fancasts have come around to liking him after the Heartless and Mama episodes.

Liked is not beloved. That label only fits Ichabod, Abbie, Jennie, and Frank Imo espcially given the context of the article which is about how the finale mitigates the season's missteps.

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DearEvette

DearEvette

Yeah, I think only 'beloved' can mean Abbie, Ichabod, Jenny and Irving.  And Since Abbie & Ichabod can't die. That leave Jenny and Irving on the chopping block.

 

The only way "beloved' could in any way refer to Katrina is if they are using it ironically or if they were quoting verbatim from a press release from Goffman.

 

I actually hope of the two it is Frank.  Only because I would be sure he is coming back.  Jenny...not so sure.... unless she is a witch in which case...hmmmm

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

So the spoiler about Katia playing dual roles.... is that a real spoiler? Or someone's speculation?

because JFC. What a frakking joke if that is the case. Is Winter going to have different levels of whisper speak?

So Mison and Beharie who are arguably the best actors currently in the cast who could easily handle dual roles, are stuck with character assassination/marginalization and Jones and Greenwood are reduced to less than supporting characters and we get saddled with MORE winter? Really?

Even if she is great with the dual roles I Do Not Care. No, show! I want the Sleepy Hollow that was clever and irreverent and fun and oddly creepy with the great stuff between Abbie and Ichabod, not the Katia Winter Show. /head desk head desk head desk

Edited by catrox14
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savinggrace

savinggrace

So the spoiler about Katia playing dual roles.... is that a real spoiler? Or someone's speculation?

because JFC. What a frakking joke if that is the case. Is Winter going to have different levels of whisper speak?

 

Katia Winter posted a pic of herself on set in costume with a blonde wig with the caption "Meet Helena Van Tassel" so sadly it's probably a real spoiler.

 

I'm starting to think there is truth to the speculation the showrunner is in love with Katia. Either that or the doubling-down on her screen time is a middle finger to those who question his judgement in expanding her character. It's like the more fans -- and journalists-- complain the bigger her role gets.

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fantique

fantique

I really liked this article. this following bit really resonated with me.

 

Last season, the show was historically driven by the presence of Washington’s Bible, yet we haven’t seen many episodes referring to it this season, nor have we seen Ichabod and Abbie following the cases Sheriff Corbin was tracking. I thought they would go that route having found his files and it would lead our witnesses to the dark Coven mentioned, other cases with biblical references to the Apocalypse, uncover more about Abbie and Jenny’s family connection, etc… Maybe this is something that is coming for the second half of the season.  Now that Ichabbie is armed with Ben Franklin’s journal, Grace Dixon’s journal, as well as George Washington’s Bible, hopefully we’ll see roads leading back to some of Corbin’s old cases.

 

 

I have to admit, while I saw a lot of ducking direct answers in that interview, the way he talked about Katrina made me think they're doing something with her that's a game changer. If I had to bet, I think it would be that she's going Full Evil. That could be why they needed to shoehorn her in so much on the first half, because they needed the audience to spend time with her to get us invested (which happened, but possibly not in the way they expected). That could also be why they're doing flashbacks, to show us how this makes sense for the character.

My only problem with this is that a lot of people have been saying "bitch is shady" since before halfway through season one. He talks about loving to surprise us...Nothing has been a surprise to me this season. Even last season, I knew Katrina was alive and able to be rescued. As soon as Abbie got pulled into a vision with Katrina with the creepy crib, I knew they had a son and after the Sanctuary episode I suspected it was "Henry" and definitely knew in 'Golem'. Now I wasn't expecting him to be War until halfway through the season 1 finale so good for that because I think people guessed one or the other. What I liked about those reveals is that it waseasy to pinpoints the hints upon re-watch and that is great plotting and attention to details, meaning they didn't pull it out of their ass and it's not a fluke (ha!). I liked the writing style and the acting. It was about having fun. What makes me laugh is I consider myself to be a more than casual viewer (I'me here aren't I?) and I am not here for the drama and "depth". I'm here for the fun and if they want to go deep, they need to back it up to make me give a shit. They say "core" viewers like certain episodes (I'm guessing Katrina absent ones and Abbie centric ones) but it's just fucking low to assume that one must be really a Sleepy Hollow fanatic to enjoy Abbie/Nicole Beharie. The guys at Afterbuzz TV said it best, this is more Abbie's story. She's our way in. That's the same reason why ACD was a genius to write Sherlock Holmes through Watson's eyes, otherwise it would have never worked from Sherlock's perspective. It would have been boring (I love me some OG Sherlock but ways to ID 150+ tobacco ash? NO!) and out of the reach of "normal" people. Just like we are not living in the 18th Century during the revolutionary war so we have to appreciate Crane through his contrast with Abbie.

 

I actually predict the blow is Irving being turned over to Moloch in some shape or form and Abbie is distraught because she let him down. OMG, just thought of Joe Corbin!!!!!! 

 

I'd be okay with Jenny dying only if Crane also suffers a monumental loss, namely Katrina. 

I would not be because her story has potential. Just imagine, a world of supernatural artefact dealer. It has some much "awesomeness" potential and batshit crazy shady people who live on the wild side, trying to sell crap to Crane who earnestly tries to trade with them and Abbie looking less than impressed as an officer of the law.

 

Maybe Irving becomes a horseman? I could enjoy an evil Irving. Maybe Headless headless and Horseman Irving team up against Henry? Maybe the horsies become unicorns and impale Katrina?

First of all, that could be cool and kind of surprising. Second, you need to stop being so funny, my roommates think I am batshit crazy because too many of your posts make me laugh to tears. 

 

Haven't watched last week's and I won't until this episode airs, if Jenny dies, I'm 100% out.

That's actually a good idea, I wanted to do that but I was too curious. Honestly the season arc has been lacking and I will do a re-watch this winter to see if watching them together helps. I am hoping to see they have a bunch of little clues leading up to next year.

 

My hope is that they like to play on words like when John Noble said Crane and Henry would have a father and son relationship and everyone thought "Oh, he will mentor him". Maybe it's a character that is beloved but not by us? Crossing the fingers!!!!!

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savinggrace

savinggrace

 They say "core" viewers like certain episodes (I'm guessing Katrina absent ones and Abbie centric ones) but it's just fucking low to assume that one must be really a Sleepy Hollow fanatic to enjoy Abbie/Nicole Beharie.

 

See this is why I initially had a hard time warming up to Jenny. I don't dislike her character  and admit she's well-acted by Lyndie Greenwood but I've always felt like the writers added a "sexy" bad-assed sister who happened to look bi-racial because they didn't think Abbie/Nicole Beharie as a Black woman could have those characteristics.They even ret-conned the younger Mills Sisters who were both originally dark-skinned so that one looked bi-racial like Lyndie. The writers still seem surprised that people love Abbie.

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fantique

fantique

See this is why I initially had a hard time warming up to Jenny. I don't dislike her character  and admit she's well-acted by Lyndie Greenwood but I've always felt like the writers added a "sexy" bad-assed sister who happened to look bi-racial because they didn't think Abbie/Nicole Beharie as a Black woman could have those characteristics.They even ret-conned the younger Mills Sisters who were both originally dark-skinned so that one looked bi-racial like Lyndie. The writers still seem surprised that people love Abbie.

I guess that's a fair enough concern, I felt like they just chemistry tested and went with the one that worked the best with Nicole though.

I don't think they retconned the sisters, I think they just got actresses who they thought could look like NB and LG because the other 2 were when they were 11 & 12, I think. One thing that killed me though is that the actress who played 12 yrs old Abbie was (or at least seemed to be) taller than Nicole. I thought "Really? You guys couldn't find a 12 yrs old that was shorter than 5'1"? Poor Nicole, I just watched the SDCC interviews not too long ago, she had to sit on her knees in the chair because she was too short to reach the mic. Lol, it's adorable".

 

Honestly the casting of two kid actors we might never see again doesn't really bother me. I didn't know Lyndie Greenwood was bi-racial. Honestly North American black people confuse me, the melting pot kind of throws off any odds here. In Africa (and I do mean the continent, not using it as a generic term like it's a country and all those cultures are the same. THAT drives me nut), there is not doubt which region you come from, if you have even a drop of foreign blood, etc.

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HalcyonDays

HalcyonDays

You know that Screen Spy spoiler about the Crane's marriage falling apart. I'm extremely happy with it, because I am sick and tired of Ichabod being a complete moron over his useless wife, and the fact that she's never had to answer for all of the lies, shady, behaviour...

 

But you know what's really going to happen, right? Just like Crane got angry about Mary Wells, then the next episode seems to have completely forgiven her, the next episodes after the break will be Crane going back to Katrina, then breaking up again, then back to her, ad nauseum. And at the very end, they will be together because "Love Conquers All", as a trail of bodies and blood line the path of their love.

 

I feel it in my Goffman-hating bones.

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Sepia

Sepia

But you know what's really going to happen, right? Just like Crane got angry about Mary Wells, then the next episode seems to have completely forgiven her, the next episodes after the break will be Crane going back to Katrina, then breaking up again, then back to her, ad nauseum. And at the very end, they will be together because "Love Conquers All", as a trail of bodies and blood line the path of their love.

 

I feel it in my Goffman-hating bones.

 

Was there ever any doubt? lol

 

Goffman lives for the Crane Family Drama.

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savinggrace

savinggrace

(edited)

So now Ichabod, Abraham and now Hawley are impressed with Katrina? Can you be a DiD and a Mary Sue? The most specialist woman to have ever lived.

 

I rolled my eyes so hard when I read that part of the teasers. These writers really think Katrina is the shit. They have to hammer home that EVERY man thinks she's amazing yet we have seen no evidence of anything but a basic failure of a witch.

Edited by savinggrace
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