Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[nksarmi]

I'm not sure I agree with her assessment, but for me the Sansa in Winterfell story that D&D have done come down to this - I care about Sansa for the first time ever!

 

I have disliked this girl since she lied to protect Geoffrey rather than siding with her sister and telling the truth and I HATE that Lady died.  I could not stand her as she proclaimed that Geoffrey will be a good king and that she loved the boy who was obviously mean and twisted from the moment we met him.  Yes there have been times where I pitied her, but I have never cared about her in all of GMMR's story telling.  Now, I do.

 

And it's not because she is being raped by her sick demented husband, but because she is the first Stark to sit in Winterfell since Bran and Rickon had to run for their lives.  I LOVE that there is a Stark in Winterfell and that she just might prevail over all of these a-holes if she is smart, cunning, and the fates help her out with Brie and Stannis.  I desperately miss the warging and wolf dreams this season and I live in hope that maybe Ayra's wolf will find Sansa and Ramsey will be foolish enough to try to hunt her and she will eat the sick little hobbit alive.

 

But I will say that now that the show has given me a Stark in Winterfell they sure as hell better not have her flee. However they need to do it, I want the story changed so that Sansa stays in Winterfell and prevails.

[benteen]

LOL about the Unsullied complaining about how slow the show is going.  In that case, I don't blame D&D because it's because of the source material.  GRRM ground A Song of Ice and Fire to a halt with his last two books, chasing new storylines and reveling in world-building.  D&D have been good at getting the characters closer together or just plain together like Tyrion and Dany.  They managed to do it seven episodes into one season while GRRM is going to take two books spread out over 5-6 years and probably about 2500 pages total.

 

Theon didn't rape the captain's daughter.  She came to him willingly.  The captain wasn't happy about it but could say nothing.  I also recall that he whipped two of his men bloody for raping a woman when he was at Winterfell.  I don't remember all the details regarding Kyra although pre-Reek Theon ending up a rapist wouldn't have surprised me, based on his attitude and the Ironborn culture.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I think the Game of Thrones itself lost quite a lot when Tywin died.  You just can't replace the level of gravitas he brought to the war/game.  To the show's credit, they've done a good job setting up the Boltons as villains as well as the High Sparrow.

[Pete Martell]

I'm not all that sure as to why Marcotte is surprised there would be attempted rape at the Wall. There has rarely been a woman at The Wall up to Gilly. Thorne is an honorable man (relatively speaking), but I doubt he cares about Gilly enough to order the men to stay away from her - it would just make him an enemy to people he wants to win over while Jon is gone. Most importantly, a number of men at the Wall went there in the first place because they were rapists. 

 

My problem with Gilly's attempted rape isn't lack of realism, it's that I don't think it added anything to the narrative, it cheapened her relationship with Sam (as if they weren't sure we actually felt that Sam was good enough for her or that we had enough reason to care about them, even after 4 seasons of development and bonding), and it felt like the show saying a woman is interesting mostly if she is in danger of being raped. 

 

As for the Sansa stuff, I'd still like to know how needling your rapist is "strength." That line of thinking really bothers me, because there are many women who shame and blame themselves and are shamed by other people because they don't fit the TV and movie trope of talking back and getting in some good digs while being assaulted. That this somehow makes them "weak." And the show is now just further perpetuating that image.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Pete Martell

[benteen]

As I recall in ADWD, Stannis had two of his own men gelded for raping Wilding women.  THEY were the ones attempting to rape.

[Elkins]

....but are they going to save Balon's death for Season 6, or just have someone casually mention that Balon died but word only got back to the mainland recently?!?  I wonder if they're planning on actually showing Balon's murder for the show.

 

I'm wondering if they're going to have news of Balon's death somehow reach Stannis's encampment just in time for Mel to use that piece of info to put even more pressure on him. I'm finding that plotline so anxiety-provoking.

 

The show cuts the Riverlands and the Vale for B-movie femme fatales and rape but apparently keeps Oldtown. Huh. Maybe they'll introduce a Greyjoy uncle after all, or maybe it'll be a relatively cheap set where Sam finds some kind of information about how to fight the undead.

 

Or hey, maybe they'll add some B-movie femme fatales and a few rapes to the Oldtown plotline! The show still hasn't managed to match Martin for fanservicey quasi-lesbianism, so how's about a scene where Sarella and her best friends, two other students who are also playing Sweet Polly Oliver at the Citadel (it's a little-known fact that there are, in fact, no male students at the Citadel at all), exposit about dragons and obsidian candles while fingering each other? Then the Ironborn can burst in and show us just how 'gritty' the world is by raping and slaughtering them all. It can help to motivate both Sam and the Dornish! Call me, HBO!

 

I will be interested to see if everyone who is upset at Sansa's handling will be offended by Cercei's walk of "shame"?  I know she's a horrible person in many ways but parading her through the streets shaved and naked bothered me in the books and it will bother me a lot on the show too. 

 

Oh, I am absolutely dreading that scene. Not only because it was such an upsetting sequence in the books already, but also because there are just so many ways they could screw up filming it. It's like a minefield with only one safe route to the other side. And I'm convinced that even if they do get it perfectly right, there'll still be a massive shitstorm. At this point I think they're in a no-win situation when it comes to anything that even so much as points towards the misogyny of the setting, but a scene in which a woman is being stripped and subjected to the voyeuristic gaze as a way of literally slut-shaming her? Oh, yeah, and also it's a kind of "hoist by her own petard" situation, so you can be sure there will be plenty of people using and then defending phrases like "she was totally asking for it?"

 

Oh, yes. This is going to be fun.

 

Ugh. I'm already cringing just thinking about it.

 

They're the only political organization in the story trying to represent the interests of the common people, and they're completely correct that the ruling families and their apparatchiks have engulfed the continent in warfare out of a glorified family feud, leading to untold suffering, particularly in the Riverlands, which is where most of the Sparrows are from. 

 

And that's what makes him far more interesting, IMO, than either a simple Good Guy Champion of the People or an outright Bad Guy Intolerant Bigot could ever be. The High Sparrow is the leader of a populist religious movement, and to my mind he's a perfectly fair example of the type. Far too many populist leaders really have been associated with fanning the flames of already-extant bigotries. It saddens me, as my own politics lean left, but there's a long and very nasty history of demagogues going precisely that route. The High Sparrow can both speak against the injustices visited upon the downtrodden masses and encourage them in homophobia, misogyny and intolerance; and if viewers are feeling torn about him because of that? Well, good! They absolutely should be! I don't think it's at all a bad thing for the show to present political forces in ways that encourage audience ambivalence.

[Winnief]

And that's what makes him far more interesting, IMO, than either a simple Good Guy Champion of the People or an outright Bad Guy Intolerant Bigot could ever be. The High Sparrow is the leader of a populist religious movement, and to my mind he's a perfectly fair example of the type. Far too many populist leaders really have been associated with fanning the flames of already-extant bigotries. It saddens me, as my own politics lean left, but there's a long and very nasty history of demagogues going precisely that route. The High Sparrow can both speak against the injustices visited upon the downtrodden masses and encourage them in homophobia, misogyny and intolerance; and if viewers are feeling torn about him because of that? Well, good! They absolutely should be! I don't think it's at all a bad thing for the show to present political forces in ways that encourage audience ambivalence

 

This.  I was initially worried about how the show was going to handle the High Sparrow who is a very complicated figure in the books as well.  Yes he's a zealot with some really nasty views on women...but he's not wrong about the Lannisters and his empathy for the long suffering smallfolk is completely genuine.  I was afraid they'd just make him some 2-D religious maniac like Melisandre.  People of faith don't fare well on the show.  But this time they got it right thanks in great part to Pryce's performance. 

 

And they definitely showed the populist angle there with "We are the many.  You the few.  What happens when the many stop fearing the few?"  Historically speaking, movements with origins in populism but darker sides of xenophobia and/or fundamentalism can gain a lot of traction during times of national crisis under a corrupt and decadent elite. 

 

I'm wondering if they're going to have news of Balon's death somehow reach Stannis's encampment just in time for Mel to use that piece of info to put even more pressure on him. I'm finding that plotline so anxiety-provoking.

 

That one's got everybody biting their nails at this point, Sullied and Unsullied alike.  I doubt they'd kill Shireen if she *didn't* die in the books, but the problem is there's no knowing what her fate in TWOW is supposed to be. 

[nksarmi]

I doubt they would cut the walk of shame and I'd bet money that Lena was actually looking forward to acting it.  I kind of feel sorry for D&D in this case, but I largely believe that Cersei is going to go batshit crazy at some point and this might be part of why that happens.  Hopefully, they will tame it and make it more about the hate of the crowds and less about nudity.

[Avaleigh]

This.  I was initially worried about how the show was going to handle the High Sparrow who is a very complicated figure in the books as well.  Yes he's a zealot with some really nasty views on women...but he's not wrong about the Lannisters and his empathy for the long suffering smallfolk is completely genuine.  I was afraid they'd just make him some 2-D religious maniac like Melisandre.  People of faith don't fare well on the show.  But this time they got it right thanks in great part to Pryce's performance. 

The bit in bold is what I disagree with. He didn't so much as blink when Olenna threatened to cut of the food supply that the small folk are desperately counting on. His issues with Loras's sexuality outweigh his desire to do right by the people.

 

I was definitely on Olenna's side when she was confronting the HS. As if Olenna or anybody from House Tyrell working in the fields is somehow going to make life for the smallfolk better. The Tyrells choosing to not labor their own lands and having people do it for them isn't why life in KL sucks for the smallfolk. Being insensitive to the plight of the smallfolk isn't why the Tyrells are now in this bad position wrt the Faith. Margaery Tyrell was one of the few highborn people on the show that we saw at least pretending to care about the smallfolk even if there was a level of phoniness to it and the smallfolk seemed to appreciate her efforts. The HS doesn't give a shit about stuff like this. He's focused on the idea that Margaery and Loras have somehow offended the gods with their behavior so he's fixated on that at the expense of the smallfolk. Loras helped save the lives of numerous smallfolk in the Battle of the Blackwater and this means absolutely nothing to the HS. We have evidence of three people in House Tyrell doing significant things that benefit the common people but it doesn't seem like any these efforts matter to the HS. 

 

If he genuinely does care about the common people then he's doing a terrible job of showing it IMO. 

[benteen]

Yeah, Jonathan Pryce is killing it as the High Sparrow.  We know what actions his Faith Militant take and that he's an intolerant bigot.  But you can't help but like the guy with the way he portrays the High Sparrow and he brings up some fair points about holding the ruling lords accountable.  The Faith Militant might be one-dimensional thugs but the High Sparrow is anything but and that's the most important thing in getting the storyline over.

 

I'm curious how the Walk of Shame will be perceived too, especially since they have bent over backwards to humanize Cersei more and take away a lot of her bad actions.  For the record, I think Book Cersei absolutely deserved the Walk of Shame.  I'm not just talking about what she did to Ned and helping to plunge the Realm into war with her bastard children.  I'm talking about stuff like killing Robert's bastards and allowing Qyburn to experiment on people, among a whole list of awful crimes.

[Pete Martell]

Sometimes I wonder if they've spent all these seasons making Cersei more sympathetic to try to stave off the image of millions of fans going online and cheering a woman being stripped naked, shaved, and paraded around in the street as various extras call her all kinds of slurs. 

 

If so, it was probably fruitless, just as it was fruitless to do that with Shae when the same viewers who once pitied her were happy to reduce her to a "ho" and talk about how they cheered when Tyrion choked her to death.

The bit in bold is what I disagree with. He didn't so much as blink when Olenna threatened to cut of the food supply that the small folk are desperately counting on. His issues with Loras's sexuality outweigh his desire to do right by the people.

 

Agreed. It's all pandering on HS' part. Well-acted pandering, but pandering. I think the idea of his being "pure" and "sincere" is seen as a breath of fresh air with so many morally compromised characters, but I can't see him as anything but a charlatan and a hatemonger.

[screamin]

I think Pryce is playing the High Sparrow like a genuine True Believer - just as dangerous as such a thing can be. I mean, Torquemada was sincere, too.

[SeanC]

The bit in bold is what I disagree with. He didn't so much as blink when Olenna threatened to cut of the food supply that the small folk are desperately counting on. 

Er, yes, because he doesn't think they will be able to do it -- which Olenna, after he responds, looks quite rattled by, suggesting that he is right.

 

I was definitely on Olenna's side when she was confronting the HS. As if Olenna or anybody from House Tyrell working in the fields is somehow going to make life for the smallfolk better. 

Having leaders who have an actual connection to the population would make the lives of the smallfolk better.  The Tyrells fed the city, but they also created starvation in the first place during the wars; the point being that they don't actually care about the people in the city, only what it can do for them.

 

If so, it was probably fruitless, just as it was fruitless to do that with Shae when the same viewers who once pitied her were happy to reduce her to a "ho" and talk about how they cheered when Tyrion choked her to death.

The show itself wanted that -- hence, why they played Shae's actions up as a lover's spite, and had her pull a knife on Tyrion, to make him justified in killing her.  They created a sympathetic Shae, but then blackwashed her to protect Tyrion in the end.

 

Agreed. It's all pandering on HS' part. Well-acted pandering, but pandering. I think the idea of his being "pure" and "sincere" is seen as a breath of fresh air with so many morally compromised characters, but I can't see him as anything but a charlatan and a hatemonger.

D&D and GRRM have both spoken of the HS as completely sincere in what he says.

Edited May 27, 2015 by SeanC

[Winnief]

Sometimes I wonder if they've spent all these seasons making Cersei more sympathetic to try to stave off the image of millions of fans going online and cheering a woman being stripped naked, shaved, and paraded around in the street as various extras call her all kinds of slurs.

 

I think they did.  And as said earlier, having the High Septon given the same treatment earlier was also done to make it seem a teensy bit less gender based.  Not sure any of it will work but I get that they *tried*.

 

I am starting to wonder that if my theory that Sansa is in fact the YMBQ is correct, then they may be setting up a deliberate contrast and that could be one reason for giving her Jeyne's story at WF.  Now in Blackwater, Sansa and Cersei were definitely foils to one another with the book and show very deliberately showing us a Sansa who was far more dignified, self-controlled, braver, and in every possible way more well Queenly, than the actual Queen.  The following exchange...

 

Sansa-"These people are your guests!  They're here under your protection."

Cersei-"It was expected of me!"  Like Cersei thinks Sansa's too dumb to grasp that point when of course Sansa does grasp it, and as Cersei prattles on about how everyone expects her to show courage, you can actually see Sansa thinking, "Well shouldn't you at least pretend to be doing that then?!?" 

 

Now we know about the prophecy and we know that Cersei thinks Margaery is the one who will overthrow her, (though she's almost certainly wrong.)  If it's truly Sansa that Cersei should be worried about, the showrunners will want to compare and contrast the two as much as possible, considering they're a thousand miles apart from each other and they'll want to re-iterate that Sansa is in fact the tougher of the two.  Both women have been under considerable stress, and both have suffered traumatic loss as well. So since Cersei suffered a pretty nasty wedding night and miserable abusive marriage they're making Sansa go through the same only much, MUCH worse, (during the same season that Cersei's starting to slide into total lunacy right before suffering a highly sexualized humiliation and form of assault of her own,) perhaps to showcase how much tougher the 'little dove' is than the Lioness, since unlike Cersei, Sansa probably isn't gonna be riding the crazy train anytime soon.

 

I'm not saying that's the best way for them to go about it, (how much suffering do we have to see this girl endure before we can admit she's a survivor?!?) but I am saying that might be what they're trying to do. 

 

Of course, the YMBQ could also be Dany.  It could always be Dany.

 

And yeah, the fact that the High Septon is indeed a True Believer, only makes him all the more dangerous. 

Edited May 27, 2015 by Winnief

[Pete Martell]

D&D and GRRM have both spoken of the HS as completely sincere in what he says.

 

I'm sure he believes in bigotry and hatred, and exploiting the poor, but the whole Occupy Wall Street/he speaks for a majority of viewers stuff that I'm seeing at places like AV Club - I don't think he's sincere about that at all.

[Avaleigh]

Yeah, Jonathan Pryce is killing it as the High Sparrow.  We know what actions his Faith Militant take and that he's an intolerant bigot.  But you can't help but like the guy with the way he portrays the High Sparrow and he brings up some fair points about holding the ruling lords accountable.  The Faith Militant might be one-dimensional thugs but the High Sparrow is anything but and that's the most important thing in getting the storyline over.

I think you've just pinpointed for me what sort of vibe I'm getting. The sparrows remind me of the fascist blackshirts that were led by Sir Oswald Mosley back in the 1930s. Young, mostly working class toughs whose thuggish tendencies are being given direction by a man they feel is best representing their interests. I even get a bit of StraightEdge/sXe vibe to be honest where a part of the appeal is tied into violence and fighting not to mention how superior they think they are. 

 

Er, yes, because he doesn't think they will be able to do it -- which Olenna, after he responds, looks quite rattled by, suggesting that he is right.

Right, I got that, SeanC. I agree that the HS thinks that they can't or won't be able but I think he's wrong if he truly believes that the Tyrells won't retaliate especially if Margaery and Loras end up being convicted. I think that Olenna is rattled because she sees that the HS is implacable and completely rigid. It's impossible to work with him so she's rattled because this puts her grandchildren in even more danger than she previously thought they were in. She's also likely upset that the guy is going to force her hand. Olenna, while certainly capable of cruelty, isn't the type to be unnecessarily cruel. She isn't the sort of woman who is going to have leftover wedding food kept from the common people for shits and giggles. I don't think she wants people to starve but she's going to play the cards that she has. 

 

She's probably wondering what sort of fallout she'd have to deal with if she had him killed and what sort of creature would pop up to take his place. 

 

Having leaders who have an actual connection to the population would make the lives of the smallfolk better.  The Tyrells fed the city, but they also created starvation in the first place during the wars; the point being that they don't actually care about the people in the city, only what it can do for them.

It isn't like Olenna is claiming to the HS that she has this great love of the common people. I don't think she's coming across as a hypocrite or anything. As far as creating the starvation in the first place--isn't that proof that the Tyrells can indeed cut off the food supply to KL and that the HS is putting the livelihood of all of these people at risk by deliberately attacking House Tyrell. 

 

D&D and GRRM have both spoken of the HS as completely sincere in what he says.

I have no doubt that the HS is sincere in what he says. He's a complete fanatic so that makes sense. Obviously though it doesn't mean that he's always right and it doesn't mean that he isn't still putting the lives of the common people at risk even if he sees himself as a kind of savior who is doing what the gods would want. He thinks that his values are the "right" values and he doesn't question himself or seem to have doubts. He's the sort of person who has complete confidence in whatever he does because he feels that there is always a correct Faith approved way to act so he (and his followers) don't really have many issues when it comes to expressing doubt about what they do. 

[benteen]

Oh yeah, I forgot they had a scene on the show where Cersei made sure the leftover wedding food didn't go to the smallfolk.  I do wonder though what the HS would do if Olenna cut the food supply off.

 

Speaking of Olenna, with Cersei and Margarey in custody, does she move into the role of Tommen's puppet master?  I would expect Kevan to use Littlefinger's jetpack to get back to King's Landing but Show Olenna is even more involved in things than her book counterpart by way of how much she's been at King's Landing.

Edited May 27, 2015 by benteen

[SeanC]

I'm sure he believes in bigotry and hatred, and exploiting the poor, but the whole Occupy Wall Street/he speaks for a majority of viewers stuff that I'm seeing at places like AV Club - I don't think he's sincere about that at all.

"Exploiting the poor"?  Why would he not be sincere?  His whole movement is borne out of colossal socio-economic chaos; he's lived his whole life ministering to the poor, and living a life of poverty and self-denial.

 

It isn't like Olenna is claiming to the HS that she has this great love of the common people. I don't think she's coming across as a hypocrite or anything. As far as creating the starvation in the first place--isn't that proof that the Tyrells can indeed cut off the food supply to KL and that the HS is putting the livelihood of all of these people at risk by deliberately attacking House Tyrell. 

Whether Olenna is a hypocrite is really not the question.  She is an aloof aristocrat with no connection to the people her house is governing by force.  This whole system is bad for the people, and has brought about the dreadful war that gave birth to the Sparrow movement.  Shouldn't the Seven Kingdoms be run by a government that puts ordinary people first?

 

And yes, they did during the civil conflict.  But the High Septon is basically threatening to call on the followers of the Faith throughout the Seven Kingdoms to throw off the aristocracy, a powerful message that has historically found a wide audience in the Seven Kingdoms (and in the real world).

Edited May 27, 2015 by SeanC

[Constantinople]

This.  I was initially worried about how the show was going to handle the High Sparrow who is a very complicated figure in the books as well.  Yes he's a zealot with some really nasty views on women...but he's not wrong about the Lannisters and his empathy for the long suffering smallfolk is completely genuine.

 

 

The bit in bold is what I disagree with. He didn't so much as blink when Olenna threatened to cut of the food supply that the small folk are desperately counting on. His issues with Loras's sexuality outweigh his desire to do right by the people.

I disagree with the disagreement.

I think the High Sparrow genuinely believes the peasantry of the Reach would side with him over the Tyrells, and thus putting Loras and Margaery on trial won't threaten the small folk of King's Landing.

I think he's wrong since I believe said peasantry have no reason to side with him -- at least not at this time -- but someone can sincerely believe something and still be wrong. 

 

I think Pryce is playing the High Sparrow like a genuine True Believer - just as dangerous as such a thing can be. I mean, Torquemada was sincere, too.

I agree.

In a way, he's an interesting flip side to Cersei. Just as she can't imagine she would be subject to discipline from the Faith Militant because she's Cersei Lannister, he can't imagine the Reach's peasantry not siding with him because he and his cause are so obviously righteous.

[Hecate7]

Wait, I guess I've forgotten--when did Theon rape someone?

EDIT: I guess it's a book thing. Lol, have I said that it's been a while since I read the books? I never really got that negative a vibe from him with that girl on the ship, but maybe she didn't have a choice in the book?

 

He didn't, I don't think. He had consensual if rude sex with the captain's daughter, who got a little too attached to him. He was a love 'em and leave 'em type. He'd had an affair with the miller's wife, and the Rickon substitute he killed might have been his own son.

[Avaleigh]

"Exploiting the poor"?  Why would he not be sincere?  His whole movement is borne out of colossal socio-economic chaos; he's lived his whole life ministering to the poor, and living a life of poverty and self-denial.

 

Whether Olenna is a hypocrite is really not the question.  She is an aloof aristocrat with no connection to the people her house is governing by force.  This whole system is bad for the people, and has brought about the dreadful war that gave birth to the Sparrow movement.  Shouldn't the Seven Kingdoms be run by a government that puts ordinary people first?

 

And yes, they did during the civil conflict.  But the High Septon is basically threatening to call on the followers of the Faith throughout the Seven Kingdoms to throw off the aristocracy, a powerful message that has historically found a wide audience in the Seven Kingdoms (and in the real world).

I don't see why the people of the Reach would want to throw over the Tyrells if they aren't feeling the brunt of the food shortage the way that the people in KL are. I haven't seen any indication that Olenna is going to try to starve the people from her region. 

 

I agree that the HS is sincere but I still think he's wrong if he thinks he's doing what is best for the people at large. Going after the people who aren't out to hurt the common folk and have actually been pretty helpful to them just makes little to no sense from my perspective. 

 

 I disagree with the disagreement.

I think the High Sparrow genuinely believes the peasantry of the Reach would side with him over the Tyrells, and thus putting Loras and Margaery on trial won't threaten the small folk of King's Landing.

I think he's wrong since I believe said peasantry have no reason to side with him -- at least not at this time -- but someone can sincerely believe something and still be wrong. 

I don't disagree with any of the above. 

 

I agree that the HS seems to think that the lowborns of the realm would be willing to side with him in this conflict but as I said earlier I agree with you that he's wrong in this belief. If he's going to start messing with their food supply then IMO people are going to blame the new guy in town just as they wrongly blamed the new guy Tyrion when they felt like shit was starting to go bad. I don't think it's going to be difficult to spread the message that the new policies of the Faith are to blame for KL being plunged into starvation. I can see people wanting the PR friendly Queen and the hero of the Blackwater to be freed so that they can start getting their food again.

 

In a way, he's an interesting flip side to Cersei. Just as she can't imagine she would be subject to discipline from the Faith Militant because she's Cersei Lannister, he can't imagine the Reach's peasantry not siding with him because he and his cause are so obviously righteous.

I agree. This is what I mean about this guy not having any doubts or having the ability to really question himself on whether or not he's doing the right thing. He's so confident in his righteousness that it comes across as arrogant to me. I'm not saying that he's arrogant in the same way that Cersei is arrogant but from what I've seen I don't think it would ever occur to him for even a moment that he'd done anything wrong if a conviction for the Tyrell siblings resulted in KL being starved out in retaliation. I don't think he has any moral qualms about the fact that Margaery is suffering in jail because she loves her brother and chose to be loyal to him and protect him rather than throwing him under the bus. All he sees is a sinner against the Faith so it's like he doesn't see a difference between somebody like Margaery or Cersei even though they're miles apart in terms of the things that they've done wrong. The thinking of the HS is so black and white that they're essentially one and the same to him even though IMO they couldn't be more different people. The way I see it to him there's a line: people who are on the side of the Faith and people who are on the other side of it. 

Edited May 27, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Holmbo]

I think people are over estimating the change to Cersei in the show. She's clearly a horrible person and I don't think any viewer thinks otherwise. I don't agree with the idea that the writers have somehow attempted to white wash her just cause they've tried to explore her motivation and because they gave Joffrey a bit more agency at her expense.

[Oscirus]

If Oleana withholds food, I don't see how the crowd won't turn on her and the Tyrells. I'd assume that the peasants view the arrest of Margery  for lying for her gay brother as "rich people problems." It's strange watching someone who is supposed to be as wise as the queen of Thorns flail around with toothless threats.

 

Oh my god, the Cersei walk of shame is going to inspire so many essays of misogyny on tv it's going to get boring. I'd imagine that the point of the walk of shame was to go too far so that some sympathy could be drummed up for Cersei in the books. On the tv show, they wouldn't have that problem, but I can't imagine the writers being allowed to ignore such an iconic scene.

[elzin]

If Oleana withholds food, I don't see how the crowd won't turn on her and the Tyrells. I'd assume that the peasants view the arrest of Margery  for lying for her gay brother as "rich people problems." It's strange watching someone who is supposed to be as wise as the queen of Thorns flail around with toothless threats.

 

Oh my god, the Cersei walk of shame is going to inspire so many essays of misogyny on tv it's going to get boring. I'd imagine that the point of the walk of shame was to go too far so that some sympathy could be drummed up for Cersei in the books. On the tv show, they wouldn't have that problem, but I can't imagine the writers being allowed to ignore such an iconic scene.

I adore Olenna, but I'm kind of disappointed in her this season. I kind of wish she had been left out because I'd rather have just her memory than watch them try to shove her in where she doesn't fit. And it's beating of a dead horse, but the show's original dialog often just falls flat and crumbles upon examination later. The "You can smell the shit" was funny for a bit and is awesome for the gifs, but when you think about it, why did she stop the carriage and then start it up? Just to say something badass? Sigh.

 

I think the walk of shame is not going to bring a huge amount of outcry IF it's done well.  It won't be a shock to readers and spoiler-readers and we saw it happen to someone else already this season.  It won't go uncommented on, but done properly it should be more thought pieces than ragequitting.

 

Knock wood, that is.  I don't like Cersei (love to hate kind of thing) and she did horrible things and that walk sort of makes me feel bad for her, like she didn't deserve it. Which was its point, I think... that however many bastard babies she killed watching her get broken was too much. But I didn't root for her or think it was unjust. I felt sad.  And I hope the show can handle it with gravitas and not grossness.

[Advance35]

For me Olenna goes back to GRRM and what he has in store for her.  He did say she has a part to play in the future novels, whether that part is a return to Kings Landing or a prologue or epilogue in Highgarden is another matter entirely.

 

I can see people wanting the PR friendly Queen and the hero of the Blackwater to be freed so that they can start getting their food again.

 

I can't see the people of the Reach turning on House Tyrell but I can see the people of Kings Landing doing it.   Margaery hasn't been shown to be doing her PR thing for a while, to busy in a Courtly wrestling match with Cersei.   We have seen the High Sparrow attending to the down and outs, the have nots.   I think THOSE people would turn against Loras and Margaery quite easily on the word of the High Sparrow.   I also think they would blame House Tyrell if the food were to be with-held.   He's tending to their sicknesses and than he announces to strike out at him the Highborn have decided to starve "the good people of this city."   The mob mentality would probably start calling for Loras and Margaery's heads in minutes.

 

It's also a matter of would Olenna have it in her to pull the trigger on the cutting off of the food supply while Loras and Margaery are in the custody of The Faith.   Like Cersei said, start a war with the Faith and guess who the first casualties will be.   Cersei has gotten EVERYONE into a fine mess this season.   I also believe things will really get crazy in Kings Landing because I think the season deneumont is going to be the death of Loras at the hands of the Faith.   It'll be a cliffhanger about the fate of Margaery and Cersei next season.   I don't think Kevan Lannister is the only High Noble to have his card punched this season.    Though with recent casting for Season 6 I'm thinking a few more people will have to bow out before this season is over to make room for all those coming onboard.   The one's in peril or who's lives are literally on the line at the moment are Loras, Margaery, Cersei, Bronn, Brienne, Pod, Ramsay, Roose, Sansa, Theon, can't really think of anyone else.

 

For the record, I think Book Cersei absolutely deserved the Walk of Shame.  I'm not just talking about what she did to Ned and helping to plunge the Realm into war with her bastard children.  I'm talking about stuff like killing Robert's bastards and allowing Qyburn to experiment on people, among a whole list of awful crimes.

 

That's why I couldn't feel for her.  I kept thinking of the mothers of those Children and whether THEY would show Cersei any sympathy if they were in that crowd.   The people of Kings Landing hate her for very good reasons.   But they took away what she did to Roberts Bastards, They nixed her giving innocent people to Qyburn for experiments, she has been massively declawed with her most awful actions being removed and giving her tearful "I love my children" soliliquys.     I fully think they'll be an outcry for Cersei to take the Iron Throne after the Walk.

[Holmbo]

I disagree. All viewers absolutely hate Cersei. The show has portrayed her as having absolutely no concern for anyone not a Lannister. The scene with the dwarf head is a good example of it from this season.

And since she herself caused the mess she's in I don't think anyone will feel much sympathy for her. I predict a reaction quiet similar to the one for Theon where the punishment is really totally unrelated to the crimes and some people will feel she deserved it while some will think it's too much.

Another separate complaint will be in regards to the whole concept of the slut shame walk which will depend on how the scene is handled. It would be smart to add some comment from Cersei about the hypocrisy of the whole thing.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Holmbo

[blixie]

 

t's also a matter of would Olenna have it in her to pull the trigger on the cutting off of the food supply while Loras and Margaery are in the custody of The Faith.

 

Agreed I think it was an empty threat and both the HS and Olenna knew it. It would be one thing to threaten a still in power Cersei/Tommen with taking action against the HS to get Margery and Loras freed, but HS isn't Cersei, and even if he isn't beloved, he is trusted and respected by the small folk of KL She mentions how he's not targeting the small folk for their lapses in behavior re: The Faith.  

 

 

I kept thinking of the mothers of those Children and whether THEY would show Cersei any sympathy if they were in that crowd.

 

I think for me, it was about the punishment fitting the crime, Cersei being locked up in a cell, her head shaved, and naked or in the meager clothing they gave her, being stripped of her vanity, and her power was very very satisfying, (listening to the batshit paranoia in her head was less fun), but the Walk of Shame makes it seem like her most heinous crime was fucking her brother/cousin/Kettleblacks  instead of all the murder, murder, murder, and torture she participated in/facilitated: Melara, Bran, Robert, the bastards, the dwarves, all the victims of Qyburn. Like her sexual transgressions weren't that big a deal to me, and her subsequent sexualized humiliation wasn't something I wanted to see , and the one bit of sympathy I have for Cersei in the book is located around the misogyny of the world she lives in and the way it pigeonholed her, limited her, and harmed her (marital rapes).

[nksarmi]

If Oleana withholds food, I don't see how the crowd won't turn on her and the Tyrells. I'd assume that the peasants view the arrest of Margery  for lying for her gay brother as "rich people problems." It's strange watching someone who is supposed to be as wise as the queen of Thorns flail around with toothless threats.

 

Oh my god, the Cersei walk of shame is going to inspire so many essays of misogyny on tv it's going to get boring. I'd imagine that the point of the walk of shame was to go too far so that some sympathy could be drummed up for Cersei in the books. On the tv show, they wouldn't have that problem, but I can't imagine the writers being allowed to ignore such an iconic scene.

The people of King's Landing might, but the people of the Reach will not.  What the High Sparrow has wrong is that Olenna has something to fear from HER people.  Perhaps the HS just doesn't understand who exactly is keeping KL's afloat.  But if the heir of High Garden and his sister - the Queen - are killed or long imprisoned, the people of the Reach will EXPECT their leaders to withdraw support from KL - especially since "Winter is Coming." 

 

What the show likely doesn't emphasize enough is that the 7 Kingdoms were once just that - 7 Kingdoms.  Only the Targs conquered them all (save Dorne) and they only did so because of Dragons (so says the North).  When the Targs were overthrown, it really was just a matter of time before the 7 Kingdoms started to wonder if they shouldn't be separate Kingdoms again.  The North choose it when Ned was killed.  The Iron Born are definitely considering it.  You really don't think the Reach will want it if such a blatant attack on their ruling family is made?

 

The HS makes the mistake of believing that all of the "many" are the same and they are not.  Besides, what did Tyrion (I think) once say the "little people" really care about?  Good harvest and healthy children?  If the ruling families can provide those things to their kingdoms - they will stay in power.  The little people aren't going to take a risk on a religious zealot if KL starts to starve. I believe the HS and FM is going to stay a KL problem and if Cersei does in fact go off the deep end and burns the city to the ground - they aren't going to be anyone's problem for long.

[Avaleigh]

It's also a matter of would Olenna have it in her to pull the trigger on the cutting off of the food supply while Loras and Margaery are in the custody of The Faith.

I don't think Olenna would fully retaliate unless Loras and Margaery are convicted. I think Olenna realizes after that conversation that a trial is going to happen and that they aren't getting around this. She wanted to feel the HS out to see if she could work with him somehow and found out that she couldn't. Now I think she's weighing her options. She also pretty much gave him fair warning of how it's going to go down if Margaery and Loras are convicted. Why on earth would she want to help the Faith after they harshly punish/kill her grandchildren? 

 

If anything I think Olenna should be turning it up a notch and calling in the men from the Reach at this point. Talk to Tommen, have the men from the Reach team up with the gold cloaks and KG and handle the sparrows that way. Kill whoever resists and send whatever is left to the Wall. No way could the sparrows handle taking on that many men. Just arrange to attack during the trial so that Loras and Margaery can be protected right away and not used as hostages by the Faith. If they have a trial surely the King would be allowed to attend and his guards would have to come with him. 

Edited May 27, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Pete Martell]

I think people are over estimating the change to Cersei in the show. She's clearly a horrible person and I don't think any viewer thinks otherwise. I don't agree with the idea that the writers have somehow attempted to white wash her just cause they've tried to explore her motivation and because they gave Joffrey a bit more agency at her expense.

 

I don't think there's been a huge change, I don't think all of it was a deliberate attempt to soften her (I think some just comes from the show's struggles to write for any female character beyond one and a half dimensions), but I do think they have toned down a fair amount, especially this season, where it felt less like a demented, delirious creature unleashed on King's Landing and more like a variety of unsympathetic, out of touch figures all played by the "populist" High Sparrow. Unfortunately I think rather than soften her it's just taken away anyone I might have cared about in the plotline, especially as a little of Olenna goes a very long way for me.

[mac123x]

The High Septon's "Workers of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!" appeal might work in the Riverlands, which have been devestated by this war.  It has far less appeal in the Reach, though, since their smallfolk haven't had their houses burned, women stampeded and cattle raped.  I'm sure there is some resentment about the number of conscripts marched off to war who won't be returning, but at this point the war has been pretty distant.

 

Regarding "how to do the Walk of Shame and keep the outcry to a minimum", I think it's all in the lap of the editor.  If they can keep it to a quick shot of Cercei from behind like they did with the former High Septon, then limit the rest of the shots to her face and the crowd's reaction, they can avoid charges of gratuitous titilation.  Lena Heady is a fantastic actor with her facial expressions, and it'd be a great opportunity for her to show Cercei going from defiant to broken, without having to say a word.

Edited May 27, 2015 by mac123x

[SeanC]

One issue I'm really wondering about Sansa's coming characterization on the show:  It's quite clear that Theon is, at some point, going to tell her that her brothers are alive.  Obviously a big moment for her, and she'd be happy for the news.  But due to the way the story has been changed, the writers have put Sansa in a very awkward position regarding the miller's boys (somewhat mirroring the show itself).  In the book story, Theon's killing the innocent boys was thematically setting up his rescue of Jeyne, another innocent who didn't matter.  But here, the framing is clearly Theon making up for his (alleged) crimes against the Stark family, as represented by, well, an actual Stark.  What is Sansa supposed to say, if anything, about the people Theon actually killed?  She didn't know them, and to her their deaths would really be quite a secondary consideration to the news that her brothers are still alive.

It's a very awkward situation for the show, which, if handled badly, could end up making both Sansa and the show itself seem dismissive of Theon's actual victims.

[Pete Martell]

I'd think all he'd have to say is, "Your brothers are still alive," and they wouldn't have to go into the rest. That could be left offcamera.  

 

Unless they regress Sansa even further than they already have this season, I don't think she would care about two children she never knew dying, and I'm not sure she'd ask about it. 

 

Based on the show's history of cutting from Sansa in reactions to her family, I wouldn't be all that shocked if Theon ends up telling Stannis or Davos or Brienne, and Sansa finds out offcamera. 

[SeanC]

Based on the show's history of cutting from Sansa in reactions to her family, I wouldn't be all that shocked if Theon ends up telling Stannis or Davos or Brienne, and Sansa finds out offcamera. 

I don't think so.  They've built up Sansa learning that as the big moment for both Theon and Sansa.

 

The fact that they're playing it this way (and presumably had this in mind for a while) does make her complete non-reaction to Bran and Rickon's deaths in seasons 3-4 rather bizarre writing choices, though.

[Constantinople]

Even if Theon tells Sansa that her brothers are still alive, would Sansa believe him without any kind of corroborating evidence?

[Avaleigh]

I can't remember, on the show did Sam tell Jon that he ran into Bran? Maybe that's how she could come around to the truth?

[SeanC]

Even if Theon tells Sansa that her brothers are still alive, would Sansa believe him without any kind of corroborating evidence?

From Sophie's pre-season interviews, it sounds like the answer is yes.

[nksarmi]

I can't remember, on the show did Sam tell Jon that he ran into Bran? Maybe that's how she could come around to the truth?

I want to say that on the show, he knows.

[The Mormegil]

I can't remember, on the show did Sam tell Jon that he ran into Bran? Maybe that's how she could come around to the truth?

Yes Sam told him.

[Pete Martell]

I can't remember, on the show did Sam tell Jon that he ran into Bran? Maybe that's how she could come around to the truth?

 

He did, which is why Jon went to look for him and that led into the Craster's Keep burning. 

[Umbelina]

I thought Cersei got off easy with only the walk of shame, then again, her crimes are much greater than the HS apparently realizes.

 

As for Highgarten, do we even know how the "little people" fare there?  I honestly don't remember.  As for the Kings Landing "little people?"  They were starving and searching for rats to eat before the war even began.  Maybe whatever there is of a middle class would suffer if Oleana cut off food supplies, and the Royals of course, but I doubt it would make a damn bit of difference in the daily lives of the poor in KL.

 

Aside from that, the whole country will be, or already are starving, after the burned crops and homes and goods, so attacking Oleana's place to grab some food might appeal to quite a few of the other warriors, and soon.  Maybe the HS will lead them there?

Edited May 28, 2015 by Umbelina

[blixie]

 

As for Highgarten, do we even know how the "little people" fare there? 

 

Yes it's stated in the books that The Reach has largely been untouched by the war of the five kings, at least until Euron shows up. On the show I think were supposed to believe much the same which is why Olenna was anxious to return there.

Edited May 28, 2015 by blixie

[Umbelina]

Yeah, but people were starving in KL before the war too.  I don't know that their poor are treated better.  ?

[cheyz]

The Reach is further south, so the climate is better. King's Landing is the largest city, so The Reach isn't as urban; people are closer to where food grows. Their taxes are lower too, because they haven't been throwing parties constantly for the last 20 years like Robert did.

 

They aren't as secure as the Vale, but they are better off than anyone else.

 

[SeanC]

The synopsis for episode 510 is out.  

 

Looks like Dany's Dothraki adventure is in.

Edited May 28, 2015 by SeanC

[Pete Martell]

Do you think they're going to

have Dany riding the dragon? I wonder how that will be shot. Or will Drogon just swoop in, char some unfortunate souls, and in the melee she decides to peace out?

[SeanC]

Do you think they're going to

have Dany riding the dragon? I wonder how that will be shot. Or will Drogon just swoop in, char some unfortunate souls, and in the melee she decides to peace out?

I think that's guaranteed.  I'm not sure how her ending up in the Dothraki Sea would work otherwise.  Dragon-riding is going to be the biggest CGI expenditure the show has had yet, but considering that there's presumably going to be three of them by the seventh season, they're going to have to make it work.

[Pete Martell]

I thought maybe she and Tyrion and Jorah (if he's still alive) could always end up being on a ship or ferry, but you're probably right.

[Constantinople]

Or perhaps like most high powered temperamental imports, they'll be in the shop most of the time.

[Winnief]

If Dany's Dothraki adventure is in, then I hope they at least keep it short,

 

But that makes me wonder when we'd get the Big Wheel Speech she gave in the promos-she was wearing a different outfit from the dress she's wearing in the photos of her scene with Tyrion in Hard Home. 

 

Certainly sounds like we get a big battle for Winterfell this season in the final episode.

[Notwisconsin]

Let's see...aside from Bran watching TV, Arya killing people here and there, and the Ironborn stuff, we're going to be just as "unsulleed" as the rest of them....