Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[benteen]

I always thought Margarey legitimately liked Sansa but ultimately, all that matters was the family business.  Like LF might like Sansa too but securing power is his most important goal.

[sunflower]

moved from Unbowed episode thread:

 

There's been a consistent campaign by D&D to eliminate any trace of questionable or unlikeable behavior from Tyrion while making other characters worse. 

 

The Jamie and Tyrion throughline is the perfect story comparison because Jamie is the character who gets a literal redemption arc that got upended by D&D's changing of his story.  He killed his cousin?!  He raped, not raped Cersei?  He's in Dorne instead of the Riverlands, doing boring lame shit.  I believe when having to choose my favorite overall character, I always choose Jamie, book and show.  Interestingly, I love Book Bran, the ending of A Clash of Kings, my favorite.  The show screwed up Jamie's arc by the elements of whitewashing both Tyrion and Cersei.  In the books,Tyrion is gray and I like him.  I don't dislike Book Tyrion at all.  OTOH, I despise Book Cersei and find her to be a moronic asshole, but that's the character.  TV Cersei just comes across as weakly written at times because they're not giving her her true book story. 

Of the three siblings, i really believe Jamie is supposed to be the best person in a weird way despite pushing Bran out the window, the Mad King, and the incest.  Doesn't his aunt basically say something about him being more like his uncles and not Tywin?

[Winnief]

Doesn't his aunt basically say something about him being more like his uncles and not Tywin?

 

That was one of the few bits of AFFC, I really liked...Aunt Genna is worrying about who will look after House Lannister now that Tywin's gone, and Jaime reminds her that Tywin left a son, (and one interesting bit about that book was how much Jaime was trying to step into his father's shoes and  it was killing him until he left with Brienne-I think he was secretly dying for a chance to get away by that point because he was just disgusted with the whole Lannister legacy.  We haven't really seen that yet on the show but fingers crossed that we will.) 

 

But when Jaime says "He left a son," Genna's response.

 

"Aye he did.  Truth be told that's what I fear the most."  Jaime of course wants her to explain that, and here comes the kicker...

 

"Jaime, sweetling, I've known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast.  You fight like Tyg and smile like Ger and there must be some of Kevan in you as well or you wouldn't wear that cloak.  But Tyrion is Tywin's son not you."

 

Basically, Jaime got Uncle Tyggett's fighting skills, his Uncle Gerion was a charmer known for making wisecracks a lot, and Kevan was always the dutiful one who put loyalty to his family above all else...but Jaime doesn't have the political skills of Tywin or Tyrion and more importantly doesn't really want them.  He's not ambitious.  Far from wanting power he tries to avoid it.  Personally I think he would have been happiest had he joined the NW-and that might be his end game.  But Tyrion besides inheriting Daddy's mad wheeling dealing skills also I think got at least some of his father's ruthlessness as well, which we've yet to really see.  It was always a great irony that Tywin's favorite son was actually very, VERY different from him while the kid who took most after him was the one Tywin hated.  That at least translated perfectly from page to screen. 

[benteen]

Ah, Genna Lannister.  Another character I wish had made the show.  It was nice to see an example of a smart Lannister woman and one who had a good relationship with Jaime.

 

I would say Jaime proved himself pretty good at playing politics in AFFC but I don't think he's built for it in the long run.  Genna is right about Tyrion and Tywin.

Edited May 25, 2015 by benteen

[Pete Martell]

moved from Unbowed episode thread:

 

The Jamie and Tyrion throughline is the perfect story comparison because Jamie is the character who gets a literal redemption arc that got upended by D&D's changing of his story.  He killed his cousin?!  He raped, not raped Cersei?  He's in Dorne instead of the Riverlands, doing boring lame shit.  I believe when having to choose my favorite overall character, I always choose Jamie, book and show.  Interestingly, I love Book Bran, the ending of A Clash of Kings, my favorite.  The show screwed up Jamie's arc by the elements of whitewashing both Tyrion and Cersei.  In the books,Tyrion is gray and I like him.  I don't dislike Book Tyrion at all.  OTOH, I despise Book Cersei and find her to be a moronic asshole, but that's the character.  TV Cersei just comes across as weakly written at times because they're not giving her her true book story. 

 

I think the problem with Cersei on the show is that they must have felt like she was too harsh and too destructive of those around her, but if their solution was to make everyone she does wreak havoc on less complex or sympathetic (the Tyrells, Jaime, et al.) it's just made me not really care about any of them. At this point I'm not even sure why Jaime is still on the show. The Ishtar follies with Bronn are an embarrassment. If they were going to just make up random silly stories, they should have had him become a nude model instead.

[Avaleigh]

Ah, Genna Lannister.  Another character I wish had made the show.  It was nice to see an example of a smart Lannister woman and one who had a good relationship with Jaime.

I would say Jaime proved himself pretty good at playing politics in AFFC but I don't think he's built for it in the long run.  Genna is right about Tyrion and Tywin.

My suspicion is that they felt Genna would somehow take away from Olenna. It bums me out too. I would have put Lindsay Duncan in the role even if she doesn't necessarily resemble book Genna. It's more that I can see her being a sister to and holding her own with Charles Dance. 

[Winnief]

Tyrion met Dany!

 

Tyrion met Dany!

 

TYRION FUCKING LANNISTER MET DANY!!!

 

Sorry, but I'm just so gleeful that this finally happened.  We'd been waiting nearly 20 years in the books, and D&D whatever else their flaws got to it, in less than five and for that I'm so, very, very grateful.

 

Also, I thought they handled Aemon's final moments and death quite well.  That actor did an awesome job.

 

Also, yeah, it looks like Sam, Gilly, and Little Sam are heading out to Oldtown.  I hear the show's been location scouting in Girona Spain for a three week shoot in Season 6, and the pics of the town certainly make it look like a credible stand-in to me. 

[nksarmi]

I was literally on the edge of my seat to make sure Tyrion was going to in fact meet Dany.  Whatever happens next, I'm just so bloody glad we have three episodes left to explore it.

[benteen]

We should have gotten Tyrion meeting Dany in ADWD but GRRM chose to revel in world-building.  Very glad to finally have it here.

 

Are Sam and Gilly going to be sent down to the Citadel or what?

[Winnief]

I was literally on the edge of my seat to make sure Tyrion was going to in fact meet Dany.

 

I know!!! I was so terrified it was going to be a fake out/near miss of characters being near one another but not meeting each other...again.  And then it actually happened, and having Tyrion be "The Gift," (which I was almost positive would refer to the FM,)...well I was ready to swoon.

 

So yeah, now Westeros has come to Dany, and she'll be coming to Westeros I wager by Season 6.  Things are finally moving!

[benteen]

I do like too that Tyrion is already sticking his neck out for Jorah.  TV Tyrion and Jorah are already a thousand times better together than their book counterparts.  That was another disappointment of ADWD.

[magdalene]

I hate to say this because Jaime is one of my favorites but unless they pull some kind of ace out of their ass soon his story line this season is a big disappointment.

[Winnief]

I do like too that Tyrion is already sticking his neck out for Jorah.  TV Tyrion and Jorah are already a thousand times better together than their book counterparts.  That was another disappointment of ADWD.

 

Seriously.  ShowTyrion and ShowJorah are a fantastic buddy/buddy pair which is only to be expected when you have the combined charisma of Peter Dinklage and Iain Glenn on screen together.  And now I'm panting to see what Peter and Emilia are like together but I'm sure it will be awesome.

 

Also, happy they had Olenna with the High Sparrow.  The Queen of Thorns may have finally met her match. 

 

One other detail-though she learns it from a different source this time around, Sansa is still surprised-and interested to hear about Jon's advancement to LC.  Yep, that's gonna be an important reunion there. 

 

Since they're clearly setting up Oldtown for next season, I think we can expect the IronBorn again then too....but are they going to save Balon's death for Season 6, or just have someone casually mention that Balon died but word only got back to the mainland recently?!?  I wonder if they're planning on actually showing Balon's murder for the show.

[benteen]

I hate to say this because Jaime is one of my favorites but unless they pull some kind of ace out of their ass soon his story line this season is a big disappointment.

 

Agreed.  I loved Jaime's AFFC storyline and it finally showed him being a responsible leader.  But God forbid D&D can show that when they can show him raping his sister instead...

[tennisgurl]

But giving Jaime too much story might possibly take away from Saint Tyrion...

 

I am a little bitter about the never ending love fest that the writers feel for Tyrion, I still love the guy, and I literally did a fan girl squeel when he met Dany. I have no idea where this i going, and I am pumped! 

[benteen]

The only way they can justify the Sansa storyline is if she stays in the North and manages to become the Stark leader of the North.

[Pete Martell]

After this season I've never been less sure that Sansa is capable of leading anything. She's been manipulated by Littlefinger with zero voice of her own, and was then dropped into a situation where she's basically poked a lunatic with a stick and is only still alive by the miracle of the show suddenly deciding Ramsay is Joffrey with dark hair and a tighter ass. 

 

As for Tyrion, I tend to wonder what he can even do to help Dany. It feels like an eternity since he had a role beyond pity partier in chief.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Pete Martell

[GreyBunny]

My show predictions for this season:

 

I hope Brienne will tell Pod to disguise himself as a servant/stable boy and go into Winterfell and try to make contact with Sansa. 

 

The Lannisters will be rejected by the Iron Bank because Stannis got there first.  Mace will find out his kids are in jail and come back to King's Landing with an army.  Cersei gets a Walk of Shame.  Then Cleganebowl. 

 

Arya kills Meryn Trant. 

 

Jon gets to Hardhome, finds wildlings that want nothing to do with him.  Then Zombie Apocalypse!  Most of the ships on loan from Stannis will be damaged or sunk. Jon comes home with heavy causalities, making his men angrier.  Jon orders Sam to go to the Citadel to forge a chain so he can take Aemon's place and take Gilly and the baby with him.  Ollie and possibly Thorne and others gang up on Jon and try to kill him.

 

Stannis shows up at Winterfell, fighting ensues.  Theon and Sansa make a runner for it.   I hope Shireen survives, I'd hate it if things got desperate and Stannis actually considers murdering his daughter.

 

Dany accepts Tyrion but Jorah will need to fight in the pits and win if he wants to come back into her service.  During the fights there's an assassination attempt and Hizdar is killed. Jorah joins Daario and the others with rescuing Dany, Drogon shows up, wreaks havoc, Dany jumps on his back and flies away (last scene of the season).

Edited May 25, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Avaleigh]

I'll be surprised if we ever see Mace again. It's not that Meryn Trant is all that but I feel like something could very well happen to Mace if his top guard is taken out. 

 

I think Arya is going to end the season going blind and the Unsullied are going to think she's being punished for killing Trant. 

[Happy Harpy]

I'll be surprised if we ever see Mace again. It's not that Meryn Trant is all that but I feel like something could very well happen to Mace if his top guard is taken out. 

 

I think Arya is going to end the season going blind and the Unsullied are going to think she's being punished for killing Trant. 

It would make sense, but...

Since the absence of foreshadowing of Jon warging into Ghost, whereas 5x07 gave a perfect opportunity for it, as I said in the episode thread I began to think there won't be any Stark warging except for Bran on the TV show. And since imo, Arya going blind was mostly about her warging, I think we might not see it at all.

 

Arya gets imo the partial Bran treatment this season, meaning she's mostly MIA on accelerated training. I start to think she wasn't cut altogether mostly because she's a fan favorite and what she learns at the House will come into play in the future. But how much of it will be cut? And what shortcuts will they take? When will she be back in Westeros?

Because honestly, I don't see her spending lots of time next season at the HoBW. If at all. Not with officially only two seasons left, all the shortcuts taken so far and the main characters getting together at different center points (North, Mereen).  

 

So, Arya being on her way to leave the House in the season finale is a possibility I seriously begin to envision.

Nope, she wouldn't have stayed long enough to have become a master ninja assassin, but I don't believe that FM are master ninja assassins (no more than I believe that Sansa is to become a Joan of Arc/Elizabeth I mashup). I see Arya having had enough time to master the change of face -big scene in episode 9, for example- and some poison/basic killing techniques by season end; after all, the road is longer to Braavos than to anywhere else it seems, considering that Mace and Trant still haven't arrived there (compare with the other travelers this season).

I also had always thought that Arya would go East to come back to Westeros, too, and join the Dany/Tyrion contingent, and concluded from all of them being in Braavos that she'd kill Trant and Mace would be a collateral damage. But...

A crazy notion came to my mind -bear with the ridiculousness of it, but I can't help: What if she actually comes back to Westeros with Mace? By killing Trant, she could very well save his life. I could imagine several scenarios with that outcome, one being Mace wanting to go back upon learning of his daughter and son's predicament and Meryn laying it bare that he was sent to prevent his return, bloodily if necessary. I could see Mace and Arya having coinciding interests, namely offing Cersei. And killing someone on her list might make Arya realize that she'll never be no one and part from the HoBW -amicably or not is left to be seen.

I know it's way, way off base, but if D&D need Arya back in Westeros for accelerated plot reasons, it could be a shortcut.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[ElizaD]

Once again Cersei mentions burning cities for her children. The writers are either aware of the theory and deliberately trolling readers or it's totally going to happen.

 

The show cuts the Riverlands and the Vale for B-movie femme fatales and rape but apparently keeps Oldtown. Huh. Maybe they'll introduce a Greyjoy uncle after all, or maybe it'll be a relatively cheap set where Sam finds some kind of information about how to fight the undead.

 

I could see Arya finding some way to return to Westeros on Mace's ship. It would make her training quite short, but if they still want 7 seasons (or even a split season of 7 and a half), neither Arya nor Dany will have time to do much in Westeros if they don't leave in the first half of season 6.

[blixie]

 

After this season I've never been less sure that Sansa is capable of leading anything.

 

I so agree, she only seems capable of getting herself into deeper more unpleasant shit. Tries to influence Theon, he rats her out to Ramsay, and now her one TRUE ally in WF is dead with the skinned flayed off her. I guess she as smart enough to grab a weapon while she was allowed out of her chambers, and I did like her attempt to sow dissent between Roose/Ramsay, but if he doesn't make her pay horribly for it in private than that's not consistent with either book or show Ramsay.

 

If Ramsay makes it out of this season alive, I just don't know if I can hang next year.

[Danny Franks]

If Ramsay makes it out of this season alive, I just don't know if I can hang next year.

 

If he died, they'd just create another, even more comically evil and omniscient character to take his place. Hell, he'd probably abuse Sansa too. That's how things roll in this show, it seems.

[elzin]

I have sooooooooooooooooo many problems with this season, but I'm going to just vent here about little changes that make no sense. Why couldn't Jon have said "geez, Aemon's dying. Sam, you take Gilly and gtfo, ok?"  Sending Sam away to Maester school kind of seems like a job for the real LC. I thought before they weren't going to send Sam, but now it seems like they  might, so was the only reason so that Gilly could be assaulted?  Jon could have given the order and they were still there for Aemon's passing or they could have had Aemon pass before Jon left... Some changes have to be made, but some I just kind of scratch my head at, wondering why they have to make things 10 times more complicated. Not more interesting. Just more complicated.

[benteen]

Jon needs to be the one to send Sam to the Citadel, I agree.

[Funzlerks]

I still hate that they've stripped all the crazy things happening in Westeros like wolves everywhere packing up and eating people. All the magical stuff is Essos or North of the Wall and it ruins the atmosphere to me. It also makes the Starks seem more isolated and down. Why on earth would show-only watchers believe Jon will rise up (and he fucking better)?

There are no creepy things happening everywhere. They should take a page from Ghostbusters. It wasn't like blah normal NYC then all the sudden Gozer. When stuff like this happens there is a general rise in the levels of crazy stuff across the board - Free and brimstone, the dead rising from their graves, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria. I could sort of see why the small folk would want a cleansing fire in the books.

With a Stark at Winterfell now, does it matter for any of the theories about the pact? Because the white walkers started while Ned was there and they aren't stopping now that Sansa is there.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Funzlerks

[SeanC]

After my prior skepticism about the Pink Letter being in the show, Jon gets brought up in Sansa's storyline completely out of nowhere, so perhaps it is in after all.

[Oscirus]

To me, the show's been working towards making Sansa the queen. Hell one of the less talked about parts about Blackwater (as far as I've seen) is her flawlessly taking over Cersei's  queen duties until she was pulled away. The difference between this predicament and her king's landing one is that she doesn't  have anybody to protect her here.  In their own, rapey way, the writers are giving Sansa her heroic moment by  having her answer the perpetual "locked door mystery." How is she going to get out when the only key seems to be the one around Ramsey's neck? At the moment she's playing two separate games. The first is playing on Theon's guilt to try and get him to help her and the second is to get into Ramsey's ear and ramp up his insecurities. Also the big difference between this storyline and Jeyne Poole's is that she's the one who will wind up influencing Theon's return, not her predicament.

 

The only thing that actually bothers me is the lack of Kevan. We have three episodes left, I don't see how he's going to have the time to fix all of Cersei's messes and get killed for his competence by the time the finale rolls around.

[cambridgeguy]

 

The only thing that actually bothers me is the lack of Kevan. We have three episodes left, I don't see how he's going to have the time to fix all of Cersei's messes and get killed for his competence by the time the finale rolls around.

He doesn't actually need to fix anything, he just needs to show up and talk about what he wants to do (i.e. the exact opposite of Cersei), perhaps have a scene with Oleanna that shows she approves, and then have Varys speechify at him while the poor guy is bleeding out.

[Winnief]

To me, the show's been working towards making Sansa the queen. Hell one of the less talked about parts about Blackwater (as far as I've seen) is her flawlessly taking over Cersei's  queen duties until she was pulled away.

 

That's what I believe too.  Cersei *thinks* the YMBQ is Margaery and her attempts to destroy her have backfired spectacularly, but in reality the YMBQ is and always has been the 'little dove,' who Cersei never suspected...not even after her involvement in Joffrey's death.  I think it's also significant that on the show they made a point of having Sansa and Cersei converse in the very first episode, and Cersei clearly condescending to Sansa in that smug Cersei way. 

 

My theory is that Sansa is going to marry Jon after the Big Reveal, and that's another reason D&D were so anxious to get her to the North-and why they had a point of Sansa hearing about Jon's promotion. 

 

Admittedly the YMBQ could be Dany.  It could always be Dany though, I don't fancy the notion and I really don't want her to marry Jon....but it would make dynastic sense I suppose. 

 

And no I don't think its accidental that Cersei talks about burning cities-she's going to burn KL, I'm sure of it. 

 

I do like the idea of Arya heading back to Westeros with Mace Tyrell...but she might also hitch a ride with the Queen of Dragons who may have to make a pit stop in Braavos on her way to Westeros in Season 6. 

 

If he (Ramsay) died, they'd just create another, even more comically evil and omniscient character to take his place.

 

I think that's gonna be Euron Greyjoy in Season 6.  Fortunately he won't be anywhere near Sansa...unfortunately Sam and Gilly will have to deal with him in Oldtown.  Not sure if Jon will be sending them to Oldtown, or if Sam will just decide they need to go before Jon gets back from Hard Home...which of course leaves Jon with fewer allies against Thorne. 

[nksarmi]

Hmmm, the show has 2 more seasons in theory, correct? Since at this point, they are all but caught up and surpassing the books - I think we are in pure speculation mode.

 

I hope next season turns the corner for heroes so that season seven can be about the unification of heroes to battle the real threat of the whitewalkers.  I think - or rather hope - that minor villains like the Boltons are dealt with long before then. So rather or not Stannis wins the battle at Winterfell, I believe Ramsey or Roose will die.  I think they might save one of them for next season, and I do hope its Ramsey who bites it because I want Sansa to stay in Winterfell not need to escape it. If Roose has a male heir he might not even mind if Ramsey dies though he might try to kill his wife and marry Sansa himself. 

 

But as is, I don't think they need anymore villains - I don't even know if they need to go back to the Greyjoys.  If they save Roose to kill next season, he and a batshit crazy Cersei might be enough for season six.  Plus they still have the mutinous NW to deal with and the zealous FM.

 

Then that leaves dragons, the price that was promised, the lord of light, the faceless god, and whitewalkers to deal with in season seven.

[jeansheridan]

My show predictions for this season:

 

I hope Brienne will tell Pod to disguise himself as a servant/stable boy and go into Winterfell and try to make contact with Sansa. 

 

The Lannisters will be rejected by the Iron Bank because Stannis got there first.  Mace will find out his kids are in jail and come back to King's Landing with an army.  Cersei gets a Walk of Shame.  Then Cleganebowl. 

 

Arya kills Meryn Trant. 

 

Jon gets to Hardhome, finds wildlings that want nothing to do with him.  Then Zombie Apocalypse!  Most of the ships on loan from Stannis will be damaged or sunk. Jon comes home with heavy causalities, making his men angrier.  Jon orders Sam to go to the Citadel to forge a chain so he can take Aemon's place and take Gilly and the baby with him.  Ollie and possibly Thorne and others gang up on Jon and try to kill him.

 

Stannis shows up at Winterfell, fighting ensues.  Theon and Sansa make a runner for it.   I hope Shireen survives, I'd hate it if things got desperate and Stannis actually considers murdering his daughter.

 

Dany accepts Tyrion but Jorah will need to fight in the pits and win if he wants to come back into her service.  During the fights there's an assassination attempt and Hizdar is killed. Jorah joins Daario and the others with rescuing Dany, Drogon shows up, wreaks havoc, Dany jumps on his back and flies away (last scene of the season).

Sounds good.  I think Shireen will survive.  Davos adores her.  He'll do a lot to protect her.  More importantly, I think Shireen has a lot of storytelling potential.  She is a combo of Sansa and Arya.  She's spunky and charming (genuinely charming).  She endures her rather horrible mother with good cheer.  But her life will be very much at risk if her father fails.  Where can she go?  Technically she is the cousin of King Tommen, but what are her other natural kin?  I suspect we'll find out next week when Stannis sends her away (can Lord Manderly be a relative?  He's not in the books, but why not the show?).

 

I will be interested to see if everyone who is upset at Sansa's handling will be offended by Cercei's walk of "shame"?  I know she's a horrible person in many ways but parading her through the streets shaved and naked bothered me in the books and it will bother me a lot on the show too.  Lena might be able to play it tougher than Book Cersei.  Here's the thing for me.  I want to believe that at her core Cersei has a genuine toughness and ruthlessness.  I don't need to like her, but I want to believe that she has rock solid confidence in herself as a person.  The book strips all of this away.  Granted I don't think she's really truly defeated at the end of ADWD.  I think she has the learned the power of laying low a bit.    A defeated Cersei is no fun.  But the walk is horrible.  She is being shamed for having sex, not for murdering the king.  Or being a bad ruler.  Just for having sex.  Much like Loras is going on trial for having sex. 

 

I remember reading the Walk and hoping that Cersei would kill all the nuns someday.  It made me root for her.  So if that was the plan, then well done.  I'm curious to see how non-book readers will react.  Will it be glee?  Will it feel like more piling on, given Sansa's plot?  Or do viewers just hate her and whatever happens, she deserves? 

[Danny Franks]

I will be interested to see if everyone who is upset at Sansa's handling will be offended by Cercei's walk of "shame"?  I know she's a horrible person in many ways but parading her through the streets shaved and naked bothered me in the books and it will bother me a lot on the show too.  Lena might be able to play it tougher than Book Cersei.  

 

They should be. The books are every bit as problematic, in their own way, as the show is. It's just that, on paper, it's not quite as in-your-face. Seeing Cersei slutshamed (let's face it, that's what it is) by the entire city, at the command of religious zealots? I would hope that everyone who has a problem with the writing for Sansa (and the writing of the Ramsay/Jeyne stuff in the books), has a problem with that.

[SeanC]

I have to say, from my observations of the Unsullied/general audience reactions, the changes made to the Winterfell storyline have not done Theon any favours.  This is the arc where he really reclaimed audience sympathy, but the general tenor of audience attitudes toward him, that I've seen, is contempt at his perceived continual failure to do anything to help Sansa, on whom the arc has been recentered. 

[Cheshrkat]

I'm just going to be so shattered if the show has Stannis actually making the decision to sacrifice Shireen.  For one thing, I think it wholeheartedly guts the book character - he is not even truly willing to sacrifice his bastard nephew, let alone his own daughter (who he commands be seated on the Throne even if he dies in battle).  For another, I will question the entire point of the show-invented scene where he describes how he went to every possible length to save her, because she is "his daughter". 

 

For Stannis in the course of a few episodes to go from that scene to a willingness to follow Melisandre on this issue isn't a surprise - it's outright deception and misdirection.  Even the best surprises need to be grounded in what comes before them - I just cannot fathom a scenario where Stannis voluntarily agrees to Shireen being sacrificed.  Now, Melisandre or Selyse taking it upon themselves... that's another story.

[GreyBunny]

This'll never happen but I'd love for Sansa and Theon to escape with Brienne and Pod. meet up with Shireen, then that group runs into Sam, Gilly, and the baby and all of them go south to Oldtown.  Now that Bran is a tree, his direwolf Summer doesn't have anything to do.  He can go with them too.

Edited May 25, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Funzlerks]

They can all live in a loft and have their lives taped. Real World: Oldtown. Their jobs will be marketing interns at the Citadel. Maybe Balon and Thoros can be their bosses.

[Pete Martell]

I have to say, from my observations of the Unsullied/general audience reactions, the changes made to the Winterfell storyline have not done Theon any favours.  This is the arc where he really reclaimed audience sympathy, but the general tenor of audience attitudes toward him, that I've seen, is contempt at his perceived continual failure to do anything to help Sansa, on whom the arc has been recentered. 

 

I doubt most of those fans would have ever changed their opinion of him anyway, as it doesn't matter what Theon went through, they saw him as a joke and as deserving whatever he got (and even now, many fans are far less bothered by Ramsay beating and raping Sansa than they are by Theon and his "manpain" and daring to suffer from a year or more of brainwashing and torture instead of just being Sansa's BFF - I guess being a hottie with a body and being seen as "love to hate" and "always bad anyway" means you can do whatever you want!), but I wouldn't care about audience opinion if the changes worked. Instead, the changes have made his entire seasons 3-5 story utterly pointless, and have made his character totally irrelevant. They've also made Sansa irrelevant - made her nothing more than a generic revengebot who is there to be victimized until she can somehow get her due, It's Arya all over again - cheering of the idea that she needs to make everyone pay,

cheering of her telling Theon she wishes she could have tortured, castrated, and raped him like Ramsay did

. It made Arya a hollowed out cipher, only getting audience interest when she is paired with male viewer favorites like The Hound and Jaqen. And Sansa is more hollowed out by the episode, to a point where I no longer recognize her. Even if she chops Ramsay to pieces, she's the one the show has pretty much killed with this material.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Pete Martell

[magdalene]

It disturbs me that some folks in the episode threads are rooting for and cheering  for the High Sparrow and his religious fanatics.  These are not the kind of group one roots for no matter how hateful Cersei is and how much she deserves a comeuppance. I am not looking forward to Cersei's walk of shame with any kind of gleeful excitement. 

[Avaleigh]

It disturbs me that some folks in the episode threads are rooting for and cheering  for the High Sparrow and his religious fanatics.  These are not the kind of group one roots for no matter how hateful Cersei is and how much she deserves a comeuppance. I am not looking forward to Cersei's walk of shame with any kind of gleeful excitement. 

So much of this. It creeps me out. I'm fine with Cersei getting arrested and paying consequences but I am not excited to see a person shamed because their sexuality doesn't happen to go in line with a particular religion. Cersei was not made to walk because of the horrible things she'd done IMO. There's something about the KL audience participation in the walk that is truly awful and in the book it seems like there's a very real chance that a massive gang rape is about to take place and it just made me feel horrified and uncomfortable and made me feel firmly on Cersei's side in spite of everything she'd done. I don't think a walk is okay for anyone and didn't like that the former High Septon was made to go through one either. 

 

Whether the High Septon ends up being burned by wildfire or dragonfire or gets his head ripped off by Frankengregor, I won't feel sorry for him at all. He's a power hungry and prejudiced fanatic who is going to be dangerous to anyone who doesn't happen to completely share his beliefs. Just because he isn't a materialistic person doesn't mean that he isn't also an incredibly dangerous opportunist. 

[BlackberryJam]

I'll be surprised if we ever see Mace again. It's not that Meryn Trant is all that but I feel like something could very well happen to Mace if his top guard is taken out. 

 

I think Arya is going to end the season going blind and the Unsullied are going to think she's being punished for killing Trant. 

 

 

I was under the impression that Cersei sent Meryn with Mace so Meryn could ensure that Mace never made it back. Cersei wants all the Tyrells gone, it makes sense she would send a henchman with Mace to protect him, but really just kill him. If Arya kills Meryn, I think she'll end up saving Mace.

 

On to Theon. I was also under the impression Theon had done something to get a message out for Sansa and that he gave up the old woman in order to cover his actions. I think whatever he's done to help, he's had to bury it so deep and confess something to Ramsay because of his fears of confessing all. 

 

Maybe I am reading more into these scenes, Cersei's eye contact with Meryn, and Theon's walk of resolve to the tower, but I really felt like more was going on there.

 

As to Sansa and books and show and women and rape, someone on Tumblr did a study, (UGH) just straight statistical analysis, and the books have 400% more rapes than the show to date. We can all refute what that means, but the data is pretty clear. 

 

I am not looking forward to the Walk, although if it were any other sort of non-naked, not weirdly sexualized punishment, I would totally be into it. Cersei contracted for random dwarf decapitation. No matter what other crimes can, or cannot, be laid at her feet, that one is clearly hers. In "real world" punishment, that's murder for hire, punishable by either life in prison or death penalty, depending on your locality. She deserves punished for that. Or am I having too much empathy for the dwarfs because they aren't POV characters?

[Pete Martell]

It disturbs me that some folks in the episode threads are rooting for and cheering  for the High Sparrow and his religious fanatics.  These are not the kind of group one roots for no matter how hateful Cersei is and how much she deserves a comeuppance. I am not looking forward to Cersei's walk of shame with any kind of gleeful excitement. 

 

This is another major writing failure. I saw the "newbie" AV Club reviewer basically saying that High Sparrow and his followers represent "a majority of Americans" and seemingly trying to put them in some type of "one percenter" wheelhouse.

 

I can't help wondering if D&D were worried about being seen as criticizing social conservatism or hardcore fundamentalism, since this show has many conservative viewers, and went out of their way to make sure viewers would feel no sympathy for Loras, Margaery, or Cersei, so that they wouldn't have to deal with articles about the "liberal agenda" and "Big Hollywood agenda" of GoT. Margaery having sex with someone who still looks like a boy (and is the age of a boy, even if the show is vague about it), and being smug and silly about it, Loras sleeping around with a male prostitute, and not caring whether he gets caught or whether it causes his family any trouble, Cersei...being Cersei. They also made sure there would be little to no suggestion that it's wrong to punish people for being gay, as the only other character we know in KL who is gay is Olyvar, who is basically Shae 2.0, only with even more shallow writing.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the average viewer sitting at home wants Loras, Margaery and Cersei to all pay.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Avaleigh]

This is another major writing failure. I saw the "newbie" AV Club reviewer basically saying that High Sparrow and his followers represent "a majority of Americans" and seemingly trying to put them in some type of "one percenter" wheelhouse.

 

I can't help wondering if D&D were worried about being seen as criticizing social conservatism or hardcore fundamentalism, since this show has many conservative viewers, and went out of their way to make sure viewers would feel no sympathy for Loras, Margaery, or Cersei, so that they wouldn't have to deal with articles about the "liberal agenda" and "Big Hollywood agenda" of GoT. Margaery having sex with someone who still looks like a boy (and is the age of a boy, even if the show is vague about it), and being smug and silly about it, Loras sleeping around with a male prostitute, and not caring whether he gets caught or whether it causes his family any trouble, Cersei...being Cersei. They also made sure there would be little to no suggestion that it's wrong to punish people for being gay, as the only other character we know in KL who is gay is Olyvar, who is basically Shae 2.0, only with even more shallow writing.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the average viewer sitting at home wants Loras, Margaery and Cersei to all pay.

Oh FFS, really? 

 

I can't tell you how depressing I find that to be. ETA: To the point where I almost wish I hadn't read it, lol. 

Edited May 25, 2015 by Avaleigh

[benteen]

That's what I believe too.  Cersei *thinks* the YMBQ is Margaery and her attempts to destroy her have backfired spectacularly, but in reality the YMBQ is and always has been the 'little dove,' who Cersei never suspected...not even after her involvement in Joffrey's death.  I think it's also significant that on the show they made a point of having Sansa and Cersei converse in the very first episode, and Cersei clearly condescending to Sansa in that smug Cersei way. 

 

My theory is that Sansa is going to marry Jon after the Big Reveal, and that's another reason D&D were so anxious to get her to the North-and why they had a point of Sansa hearing about Jon's promotion. 

 

Admittedly the YMBQ could be Dany.  It could always be Dany though, I don't fancy the notion and I really don't want her to marry Jon....but it would make dynastic sense I suppose. 

 

And no I don't think its accidental that Cersei talks about burning cities-she's going to burn KL, I'm sure of it. 

 

I do like the idea of Arya heading back to Westeros with Mace Tyrell...but she might also hitch a ride with the Queen of Dragons who may have to make a pit stop in Braavos on her way to Westeros in Season 6. 

 

I think that's gonna be Euron Greyjoy in Season 6.  Fortunately he won't be anywhere near Sansa...unfortunately Sam and Gilly will have to deal with him in Oldtown.  Not sure if Jon will be sending them to Oldtown, or if Sam will just decide they need to go before Jon gets back from Hard Home...which of course leaves Jon with fewer allies against Thorne. 

 

If D&D can make Sansa be victimized by Euron, they'll move heaven and earth to try to make that a reality!

 

I suspect Euron will become a major villain in the next season.  Like the books, the show is suffering from the death of Joffrey and Tywin.  They really were the big bads that people wanted to see brought down.  Tywin die a fitting death at the hands of his hated son and Joffrey's death was at least painful but it wasn't a "righteous justice" death (Robb, Sansa, or Ayra killing them would have been).  They were really the forces that drove the hate against the Lannisters.  They left a huge void that the story has struggled to fill.  Cersei certainly can become a big bad although D&D have done almost everything they can to make her a sympathetic villain.  The Boltons are good bads but I don't see them lasting till the end.  Littlefinger of course but I have no idea how that storyline will progress.  He's a big bad but not openly bad to Westeros at large.

[Holmbo]

I'm just going to be so shattered if the show has Stannis actually making the decision to sacrifice Shireen. For one thing, I think it wholeheartedly guts the book character - he is not even truly willing to sacrifice his bastard nephew, let alone his own daughter (who he commands be seated on the Throne even if he dies in battle). For another, I will question the entire point of the show-invented scene where he describes how he went to every possible length to save her, because she is "his daughter".

For Stannis in the course of a few episodes to go from that scene to a willingness to follow Melisandre on this issue isn't a surprise - it's outright deception and misdirection. Even the best surprises need to be grounded in what comes before them - I just cannot fathom a scenario where Stannis voluntarily agrees to Shireen being sacrificed. Now, Melisandre or Selyse taking it upon themselves... that's another story.

I too would hate it if Stannis burn Shireen. I just can't see any plot purpose for it. To make the viewers hate Stannis? Why?

Maybe to make Davos abandon Stannis. But I don't know why that would be. We've seen nothing pointing to him doing so in the books and there's no apparent plot purpose for that either.

The only reason I'm considering it a possibility is because of what Mel told Stan in season 2 (I think it was) that he would betray everything, his family, his bannermen etc. And it would all be worth it.

By the way if Jon is AA could that mean this prediction of Mel is actually for Jon. He sort of betrayed his family and the people following him. Of you go into some technical reasoning about the vow breaking and such.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Holmbo

[Happy Harpy]

I just cannot fathom a scenario where Stannis voluntarily agrees to Shireen being sacrificed.  Now, Melisandre or Selyse taking it upon themselves... that's another story.

That's the most likely scenario at this point, imo. Stannis sacrificed Renly but he didn't love Renly -and at least on the show, it wasn't established that he ever loved him as a kid IIRC. I do believe that Stannis loves Shireen more than anyone else, actually she's the only individual I feel that he truly loves, but I don't know if Stannis is truly able to love anyone unconditionnally. Will he choose his daughter over his sense of entitlement born out of a life of frustrations ? I don't know. I hope he does, I believe he will, but I can't swear he will. 

 

 It made Arya a hollowed out cipher, only getting audience interest when she is paired with male viewer favorites like The Hound and Jaqen.

Forgive me, but is this a fact? 

Personally, I thought that Arya got the audience interest  on her own perfectly well from the pilot, when she was that original cute little girl with a helmet who was so eager to see the Imp, and then when she was that hunted girl finding Needdle in her stuff, killing to survive and escaping via a road she found by herself, etc, etc...until she was the only character in the last scenes in S4, scenes that I have often seen praised. 

Moreover, I saw many people state that they were looking forward to her Braavos storyline before Jaqen was ever mentioned as returning.

Finally, I was rather under the impression that Arya contributed at least for 50% in the popularity of her "pairings". But personally again, I never liked the Hound as a "person" before he interacted with Arya, although I appreciated him as a charismatic character, and I wasn't -and still isn't- in on the Jaqen hype. 

 

Now, Theon/Reek

Theon was deshumanized, so I have trouble to understand the hate. He isn't human at this point, actually any reaction close to human is a feat in itself. His tears were the first indication that he wasn't just a shell, after the razor stopping for a second back in the beginning of S4.  

I now begin to get why so much graphic torture was needed in S3. Sorry, D&D...I didn't enjoy it at all, but now I see why it was there. TV is a visual media and if it hadn't been so heavy, so memorable, I wouldn't understand the extent of Reek's "he can always be worse". Like, I wouldn't imagine Ramsay do to Sansa what they do to little girls in some parts of the world or in some families everywhere in the world and that is the closest thing of what Ramsay did to Theon. 

I do think that Sansa will manage to sway Reek and get Theon back, but in the light of the torture brainwash from S3, it would be completely unbelievable imo if he had been with one shocking scene and one heartfelt plea. 

[SeanC]

It disturbs me that some folks in the episode threads are rooting for and cheering  for the High Sparrow and his religious fanatics.  These are not the kind of group one roots for no matter how hateful Cersei is and how much she deserves a comeuppance. 

Why?  They're no worse than any other group in the story, and in many respects they're much better.  They're the only political organization in the story trying to represent the interests of the common people, and they're completely correct that the ruling families and their apparatchiks have engulfed the continent in warfare out of a glorified family feud, leading to untold suffering, particularly in the Riverlands, which is where most of the Sparrows are from.  They are a populist religious movement in opposition to the corrupt aristocracy and church hierarchy, as regularly occurred in the Middle Ages.

 

They're not saints, by any means, but they're nowhere near the worst people in the story.  And I'd certainly side with them over Cersei.

 

This is another major writing failure. I saw the "newbie" AV Club reviewer basically saying that High Sparrow and his followers represent "a majority of Americans" and seemingly trying to put them in some type of "one percenter" wheelhouse.

 

I can't help wondering if D&D were worried about being seen as criticizing social conservatism or hardcore fundamentalism, since this show has many conservative viewers, and went out of their way to make sure viewers would feel no sympathy for Loras, Margaery, or Cersei, so that they wouldn't have to deal with articles about the "liberal agenda" and "Big Hollywood agenda" of GoT. Margaery having sex with someone who still looks like a boy (and is the age of a boy, even if the show is vague about it), and being smug and silly about it, Loras sleeping around with a male prostitute, and not caring whether he gets caught or whether it causes his family any trouble, Cersei...being Cersei. They also made sure there would be little to no suggestion that it's wrong to punish people for being gay, as the only other character we know in KL who is gay is Olyvar, who is basically Shae 2.0, only with even more shallow writing.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the average viewer sitting at home wants Loras, Margaery and Cersei to all pay.

That's a huge stretch.  If anything, the portrayal of the Faith Militant has used the focus on their gay-bashing Loras to paint them as much more evil to modern audiences than the Sparrows in the books.  I haven't seen anyone who's rooting against Margaery or Loras.

[Pete Martell]

I haven't really seen much of anyone who cares about Margaery or Loras either. I don't come away from this story feeling like we're supposed to be all that bothered by them as a group or be bothered by their beliefs. It's mostly been about Cersei being hoisted on her own petard, and some "witty" banter with Olenna and Littlefinger. 

[Winnief]

Euron will become a major villain in the next season.  Like the books, the show is suffering from the death of Joffrey and Tywin.  They really were the big bads that people wanted to see brought down.  Tywin die a fitting death at the hands of his hated son and Joffrey's death was at least painful but it wasn't a "righteous justice" death (Robb, Sansa, or Ayra killing them would have been).

 

Truth be told in retrospect, I think that was a major flaw in the books.  I get that Martin was subverting classic tropes by having Tywin die when he did, but his absence has created a major hole in the series that's been a struggle to fill on screen or on page.  Frankly, there's no one left in Westeros to seem like a *credible* threat to Dany anymore, (except the White Walkers of course.)  And really *not* getting to see Tywin's reaction to dragons and White Walkers seems like a missed opportunity. 

 

Now the Boltons at least are fun to hate on, but they're not long lived, (and typing this I think one reason they gave Sansa Jeyne's storyline was to make the Boltons seem more relevant to viewers by having them directly threatening a Stark) so that's another reason I think Euron's showing up in Season 6, because GoT *needs* human villains besides Cersei, (as fun as it is watching her self destruct.)  The problem is that again, while Euron's easy to hate, I'm not sure he poses much of a challenge for Dany.  That might be part of why Martin's stuck. 

 

Oh well, at least there's a good chance we'll see Sansa take down Baelish which would be fitting-and is she IS the YMBQ then that would be pretty satisfying indeed for a change.

 

And I agree with SeanC-the fact that they're playing up the anti-gay violence is proof the show doesn't want us to sympathize with the FM.  But JP is so good, he draws us in anyway, and while we don't like seeing them persecute Margaery or Loras, people can't help but feel that Cersei has brought it all down on herself.  I can't say I'm looking forward to the Walk of Shame-it was queasy on the page and will probably be more so when its on screen, but I *am* excited for Lena's performance. 

Edited May 25, 2015 by Winnief

[Avaleigh]

That's what I believe too.  Cersei *thinks* the YMBQ is Margaery and her attempts to destroy her have backfired spectacularly, but in reality the YMBQ is and always has been the 'little dove,' who Cersei never suspected...not even after her involvement in Joffrey's death.  I think it's also significant that on the show they made a point of having Sansa and Cersei converse in the very first episode, and Cersei clearly condescending to Sansa in that smug Cersei way. 

 

My theory is that Sansa is going to marry Jon after the Big Reveal, and that's another reason D&D were so anxious to get her to the North-and why they had a point of Sansa hearing about Jon's promotion. 

 

Admittedly the YMBQ could be Dany.  It could always be Dany though, I don't fancy the notion and I really don't want her to marry Jon....but it would make dynastic sense I suppose. 

 

And no I don't think its accidental that Cersei talks about burning cities-she's going to burn KL, I'm sure of it. 

 

I do like the idea of Arya heading back to Westeros with Mace Tyrell...but she might also hitch a ride with the Queen of Dragons who may have to make a pit stop in Braavos on her way to Westeros in Season 6. 

 

I think that's gonna be Euron Greyjoy in Season 6.  Fortunately he won't be anywhere near Sansa...unfortunately Sam and Gilly will have to deal with him in Oldtown.  Not sure if Jon will be sending them to Oldtown, or if Sam will just decide they need to go before Jon gets back from Hard Home...which of course leaves Jon with fewer allies against Thorne. 

Winnief, I think your predictions are on the money and I hope they're right. 

 

I particularly hope that you're right about Euron being a new big bad for the show after the Boltons are taken out after this season. I feel like we need a big bad that isn't connected to the white walkers or dragons. LF is good but he only interacts with so many characters and is altogether a different sort of villain. Euron has the capability to really introduce some immediate chaos, danger, instability, etc. There 

 

 

Why?  They're no worse than any other group in the story, and in many respects they're much better.  They're the only political organization in the story trying to represent the interests of the common people, and they're completely correct that the ruling families and their apparatchiks have engulfed the continent in warfare out of a glorified family feud, leading to untold suffering, particularly in the Riverlands, which is where most of the Sparrows are from.  They are a populist religious movement in opposition to the corrupt aristocracy and church hierarchy, as regularly occurred in the Middle Ages.

 

They're not saints, by any means, but they're nowhere near the worst people in the story.  And I'd certainly side with them over Cersei.

 

That's a huge stretch.  If anything, the portrayal of the Faith Militant has used the focus on their gay-bashing Loras to paint them as much more evil to modern audiences than the Sparrows in the books.  I haven't seen anyone who's rooting against Margaery or Loras.

I agree with you that they aren't the worst people in the story. That's about the best that can be said about them. Just take what the High Sparrow had to say about widows in the books--IMO it couldn't be more clear that the guy is a misogynistic douchebag. 

 

Frankly I don't think that the book HS cares anything about being just and right. He'd take the Lannister/Tyrell alliance over Stannis an dhis well known reputation for being just because Stannis is hooked up with the wrong faith. 

 

In the show, the HS isn't making KL better he's making it worse IMO. He's going out of his way to knowingly threaten their food supply, he's keeping loads of people from making money and spending money, he's having his Sparrows harass people in the streets, the sparrows are clearly (IMO) being encouraged to mutilate themselves, the jails are filling up, people are being persecuted for their sexuality, and he's done his best to isolate an underage king and make him more vulnerable than ever as if that's going to help their side. (HS isn't pro-Targ or Stannis because of the Lord of Light so Tommen is what they have left since they don't seem like they're trying to overthrow the monarchy--at least I haven't gotten that impression. I think he wants to have them under the thumb of the Faith is all.)

 

I'm not getting the impression at all that the HS genuinely cares about helping the smallfolk. I think he only cares about his agenda and that's all about getting people to fall in line with the Faith. I certainly don't think he'd give a damn about any common people in Westeros who follow a different faith.