Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[BlackberryJam]

I don't think that her character is "lacking."  It's the writer's fault, they're the one's that felt like this was the ONLY way possible to "giver her agency."  There were no other non-rapey possibilities in their minds.  I've seen/read rape plotlines in other materials that we're done well.  It's difficult, but it can be done.  The problem here is not just with their "we cannot think of anything else" attitude, it's that they have in no way proven that they have to talent/finesse to execute a plot line like this well.  Heck they were so inept that they apparently didn't even realize that they were writing a rape scene last season, they were that clueless.

 

And no, GRRM having Sansa be raped in a future book would not make it better, because:

 

-Martin himself is no infallible and I've disagreed with certain things that he's done in the books as well (including the equivalent of this particular plot).

-It happening in the book doesn't then mean that it suddenly works in THIS context.

It also leads to the uncomfortable thought that they might have just been waiting for Sophie Turner to turn 18 in order to do this scene. 

 

Are you suggesting they shouldn't have cast Sophie Turner at age 13 but instead cast a different actress who was say 15 when the show started so she'd be 20 instead of 18 when it came time for this story? That's troublesome and a disservice to Sophie. "Sorry Soph, X story which is going to end up as a tough scene for viewers to watch would be set to film when you're 18, and we think it would be better if the actress is 20, so we aren't going to hire you, even though you're totally awesome. NEXT ACTRESS!" 

 

This story, for whatever reason, is important for endgame. D&D have cut the stuff that is not important, like the Greyjoys, the Vale lords, Lady Stoneheart, the Northern conspiracy, Tyrion's wanderings, where whores go, and condensed plots, such as Dorne. 

 

You're reasoning backwards here. You're saying:

 

1.  D&D love rape.  

2.  Jeyne Poole, Ramsay torture, Theon finding Theon again and Sansa losing her virginity have no value towards endgame. 

3.  D&D kept the story of Jeyne Poole, Ramsay torture, Theon finding Theon again and Sansa losing her virginity and combined them into one making Sansa the key player instead of keeping Sansa a pure, precious snowflake.

4. This was done only for purposes of shock value.

5. Therefore D&D love rape.

 

D&D have put a lot of time and effort into this story. It's not a throwaway scene like Pod the Sex God. This is a big, important story, the marriage, the North, Sansa, Theon, Ramsay, the Boltons, this is big for endgame. This isn't a throwaway plot for funsies.

Edited May 19, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Pete Martell]

It is because Sansa matters that they put her here. I think I remember Joss Whedon saying that putting Kaylee in horrible circumstances was how he made the audience care about what would happen. Heck, Theon got castrated and it was a source of jokes regarding a dick in a box. White Rat got his throat slit while cuddling with a woman he couldn't have sex with due to mutilation as a child, and people complained that we could briefly see the woman's naked body. When bad things happen to characters we care about, we become invested in that story.

 

I can't help wondering if one of the reasons they had Sansa raped is not because she mattered, but because they feel that she would only matter if she were raped. 

 

Her stories have been truncated and rarely seemed to be about her (even her reaction to the murder of her mother and brother was more about poor poor Tyrion trying so hard to be nice to her). Even her escape last season, which should have been a very exciting plot, was more about her reacting to Baelish or "learning" because of him. She continued to be a bystander most of this season until she was raped. 

 

She is repeatedly defined by men who control and abuse her, and now the suggestion from Bryan Cogman seemed to be (at least my interpretation) that this was a watershed moment because she had now moved into accepting and controlling her sexual assault, in order to have Winterfell.

 

I think they may believe the character is only worthwhile because of her rape. I also think that may be why they talk about her tied to Theon, as they also likely only ever saw his arc in terms of when he would be tortured and assaulted (the main difference being that this was source material). 

 

It's also why I wonder if there will be any kind of escape attempt at all, or if they will both just suffer, being brainwashed and assaulted, until one of the "bad-ass" characters, like Brienne, arrives to rescue them.

[Happy Harpy]

Sansa was empowered before her wedding night. She made a choice with the cards she was dealt. Her hand was shitty, but all the Starks had shitty hands from the moment Jon Aryn was murdered. Or rather, from the moment trout-blooded Catelyn was stoopid enough to ask Brandon to spare Creepyfinger. 

 

The traumatic bedding is a trial imo, not a mean, not an end. Sansa happens to live in a world where men need her womb to establish their power, a world where as a woman, a noblewoman, a Stark of Winterfell, she isn't seen as anything else but a walking incubator (and oh, you know what? It's still the same nowadays in most parts of the world). She pays the horrifying price for who she is, and it's horrible and unfair.

The rape isn't the source of her determination. It isn't the source of her evolution. Because all that, imo, was established before. For what I've seen, it's not something thats supposed to elevate her, it's something that won't take her down. Big difference. That is, if GRRM made her an end-game character in the books and not one of those many, many others who had pointless, horrible destinies after you rooted for them to survive as unscathed as possible.

 

Now I'm going to light candles for Shireen, knowing it will be in vain and cursing myself for watching this show in the first place, and finally I'm going to hope that Gendry is still rowing because from the moment he's back on the show, I'm going to fear for his survival. 

I'm going to be naive and hope that the Tarth mention means that Jaime and Brienne are meant to meet each other again...since I'm certain that somehow, the escape from Winterfell will happen and that Brienne, Podrick or both are going to die for it. 

[DigitalCount]

I disagree that her escape and the fallout was about Baelish. He was the guy sitting in the background while Sansa engineered their salvation by playing the Vale Lords like fiddles, mingling truth and lies to win them over.

[Bats27]

Are you suggesting they shouldn't have cast Sophie Turner at age 13 but instead cast a different actress who was say 15 when the show started so she'd be 20 instead of 18 when it came time for this story? That's troublesome and a disservice to Sophie. "Sorry Soph, X story which is going to end up as a tough scene for viewers to watch would be set to film when you're 18, and we think it would be better if the actress is 20, so we aren't going to hire you, even though you're totally awesome. NEXT ACTRESS!" 

 

This story, for whatever reason, is important for endgame. D&D have cut the stuff that is not important, like the Greyjoys, the Vale lords, Lady Stoneheart, the Northern conspiracy, Tyrion's wanderings, where whores go, and condensed plots, such as Dorne. 

 

You're reasoning backwards here. You're saying:

 

1.  D&D love rape.  

2.  Jeyne Poole, Ramsay torture, Theon finding Theon again and Sansa losing her virginity have no value towards endgame. 

3.  D&D kept the story of Jeyne Poole, Ramsay torture, Theon finding Theon again and Sansa losing her virginity and combined them into one making Sansa the key player instead of keeping Sansa a pure, precious snowflake.

4. This was done only for purposes of shock value.

5. Therefore D&D love rape.

 

D&D have put a lot of time and effort into this story. It's not a throwaway scene like Pod the Sex God. This is a big, important story, the marriage, the North, Sansa, Theon, Ramsay, the Boltons, this is big for endgame. This isn't a throwaway plot for funsies.

No they didn't "put a lot of time" into it.  If they had, then the set-up for it wouldn't have come across as so contrived.  And I'm sorry, but this notion that "we NEEDED to have her be raped in order to make her important" is something that I just don't buy.  It's the safe failback for lazy writers who don't know how to do anything else.  There are plenty of other ways that this could have been done without resorting to yet another rape plot with yet another female character.  Change it up guys.

Sansa was empowered before her wedding night. She made a choice with the cards she was dealt. Her hand was shitty, but all the Starks had shitty hands from the moment Jon Aryn was murdered. Or rather, from the moment trout-blooded Catelyn was stoopid enough to ask Brandon to spare Creepyfinger. 

 

The traumatic bedding is a trial imo, not a mean, not an end. Sansa happens to live in a world where men need her womb to establish their power, a world where as a woman, a noblewoman, a Stark of Winterfell, she isn't seen as anything else but a walking incubator (and oh, you know what? It's still the same nowadays in most parts of the world). She pays the horrifying price for who she is, and it's horrible and unfair.

The rape isn't the source of her determination. It isn't the source of her evolution. Because all that, imo, was established before. For what I've seen, it's not something thats supposed to elevate her, it's something that won't take her down. Big difference. That is, if GRRM made her an end-game character in the books and not one of those many, many others who had pointless, horrible destinies after you rooted for them to survive as unscathed as possible.

 

Now I'm going to light candles for Shireen, knowing it will be in vain and cursing myself for watching this show in the first place, and finally I'm going to hope that Gendry is still rowing because from the moment he's back on the show, I'm going to fear for his survival. 

I'm going to be naive and hope that the Tarth mention means that Jaime and Brienne are meant to meet each other again...since I'm certain that somehow, the escape from Winterfell will happen and that Brienne, Podrick or both are going to die for it. 

And they needed a rape scene to do this? That was essential?  All of the other crap that she's gone through over the last 4+ seasons (that's basically been her whole story up till now) was enough, we had to add rape into it?  Nope, not buying it.

[BlackberryJam]

I didn't argue they needed a rape to make Sansa important. I argued that the story of Jeyne Poole's rape/torture and the resulting fallout is important, so to invest the reader, the put Sansa in the role because for most likely very good reasons, what goes on with Sansa in the Vale was cut. The Vale is probably gone because it has no importance to endgame. And it's boring. I'd rather they send Sansa on a mission to Dorne to rescue Myrcella than watch the snorefest of unimportant Vale stuff. "Next on Game of Thrones, Sansa babysits, eats lemoncakes and chats with Myranda Royce!" Ugh.

 

We are still seeing the set up of the Winterfell story, and so far, it's been pretty damn interesting. You've got Baelish setting all sides against each other. You've got the Boltons isolated with no allies in Winterfell and you've got Stannis on the move, all the while playing out an alliance through marriage story that could go horribly wrong. And we still don't know exactly what game Baelish is playing, but he's got the Vale knights on the move and Cersei emotionally invested.  

 

Again, GRRM never promised Sansa a happy ending, nor did he promise to keep her safe. Or empower her. Or give her any badass moments. Come on, GRRM has planned death, pain and destruction for everyone. So, why should Sansa be immune?

 

And you pretty much didn't address any of my points except saying D&D didn't put a lot of time into it. How much screen time has Sansa and the rest of Winterfell had this season? Hasn't Sansa been in every episode?  

Edited May 19, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Avaleigh]

I don't think that her character is "lacking."  It's the writer's fault, they're the one's that felt like this was the ONLY way possible to "giver her agency."  There were no other non-rapey possibilities in their minds.  I've seen/read rape plotlines in other materials that we're done well.  It's difficult, but it can be done.  The problem here is not just with their "we cannot think of anything else" attitude, it's that they have in no way proven that they have to talent/finesse to execute a plot line like this well.  Heck they were so inept that they apparently didn't even realize that they were writing a rape scene last season, they were that clueless.

And no, GRRM having Sansa be raped in a future book would not make it better, because:

-Martin himself is no infallible and I've disagreed with certain things that he's done in the books as well (including the equivalent of this particular plot).

-It happening in the book doesn't then mean that it suddenly works in THIS context.

 

 

So then it makes no difference if D&D chose to do this because of what happens to Sansa in the next book? D&D should choose to ignore Sansa's rape in the books (assuming this is what made them make this choice) because that's the only way that Sansa's story can be told in a meaningful way? I think ignoring something like rape, if it happens to the character in the books, would be a disservice to the character because something like that shouldn't easily be swept under the rug as though it didn't happen. Surely a rape would have a huge impact on future decisions the character would make not to mention how it would impact her emotionally. I can totally see why they wouldn't want to ignore that. 

 

Again, GRRM never promised Sansa a happy ending, nor did he promise to keep her safe. Or empower her. Or give her any badass moments. Come on, GRRM has planned death, pain and destruction for everyone. So, why should Sansa be immune?

 

 

Exactly. This is what I'm struggling to understand. They're all being shipped off to hell together--why should Sansa be any different? Again I'm seeing it stated that Sansa has already been through too much so it's essentially overkill and unimaginative to have her character be a victim again even though IMO it makes sense within the story considering that Sansa is now married to a sadistic monster like Ramsay. 

 

I feel like the bottom line is that Sansa can only be interesting for some if she's winning and doesn't have anything else bad happen to her for the remainder of the story. I disagree that the only way to make Sansa interesting is to make her go cannibal on the Boltons/Freys or for her to kill as many people as possible. 

[Happy Harpy]

And they needed a rape scene to do this? That was essential?  All of the other crap that she's gone through over the last 4+ seasons (that's basically been her whole story up till now) was enough, we had to add rape into it?  Nope, not buying it.

Did Theon need to be tortured and castrated? Did Daenerys need to be fucked like an animal until she couldn't walk? Did Gilly need to be raped by her own father? Did Gendry need to be raped by Melisandre? Did Talysa need to be stabbed in the belly? Did Arya need to be whipped? Did Cersei need to be beaten by Robert? Did Brienne need to be assaulted by Locke and his men? Etc. Was all this essential? 

 

Edit: And I didn't say they used a rape to do anything, so I don't understand your question? 

Edited May 19, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[MrWhyt]

Did Theon need to be tortured and castrated? Did Daenerys need to be fucked like an animal until she couldn't walk? Did Gilly need to be raped by her own father? Did Gendry need to be raped by Melisandre? Did Talysa need to be stabbed in the belly? Did Arya need to be whipped? Did Cersei need to be beaten by Robert? Did Brienne need to be assaulted by Locke and his men? Etc. Was all this essential? 

 

Did the Targaryens need to invade Westeros?

[Amtosbm]

Hey fellow posters. This is my first time posting even though I signed up right before TWOP went down.  I was going to put this in the episode thread but after thinking about all the discussions going on thought here was more suitable.

 

I read the books about a year before the show started. I started reading them because a coworker had read about the show and was talking up the books. I loved the first three books. So when the show started I was initally pissed that all these details like The Tower or Joy, the importance of the Blackfish, the underusing of the Brotherhood was being left out. ( I never missed the lack of Ironborn). I now accept its a different format and requires some adaptations to fit this mold. It took awhile though.

 

But after the last two books dragging on, I realize now I am perferring the show. Things get left out that still tick me off ( I like Val! I want dead Freys!) but it also doesn't feel like I am slogging through mud or endless meals and miles of road. My favourite character was Tyrion in the books but I love Brienne on the show. The shorter focus and the perfection the actress plays her with means I never skip her scenes. Which is not true in the books.

 

I could go on but want to just comment on this.

 

I can understand why people are angry with the show for bringing Sansa into a position of tormented victim again. It is very upsetting to see. But I'm personally not mad about it because Sansa doesn't have any book story at this point. The books are putting all the stark characters at the wayside for the moment and the show suffers because of it.

I feel the same way. I could give two craps about Sansa in the books but since she has been on consistently the last five years I have grown to not really like her, but I do care about her. It doesn't mean I think losing her virginity and being forced to marry Ramsay was ok (yuck) but I am engaged with the story and like how it is tying so many characters together.  I think it also helps that I feel show Ramsay is coming across as more intelligent and somewhat charming (can't believe I wrote that) than book Ramsay who was like something dragged from hell and looked like it.

 

I love hearing the different points of view. No one I know currently has read the books due to their immense size so its so interesting to read about what other book readers think.  I love that we have a forum to compare the two, hopefully I will be posting more and lurking less.

 

 

[Winnief]

But after the last two books dragging on, I realize now I am perferring the show. Things get left out that still tick me off ( I like Val! I want dead Freys!) but it also doesn't feel like I am slogging through mud or endless meals and miles of road.

 

Blasphemous to say it but I agree.  I'm here until the end.  BUT, I really REALLY hope that's the last time we see Sansa being victimized and I think if she doesn't flee soon, and the Bolton's don't die by the end of the season they'll have a mutiny on their hands.  Five Freaking Seasons of watching Starks suffer has been way, WAY more than enough thank you very much. 

[Pete Martell]

I disagree that her escape and the fallout was about Baelish. He was the guy sitting in the background while Sansa engineered their salvation by playing the Vale Lords like fiddles, mingling truth and lies to win them over.

 

To me that was mostly in one episode, while the rest was her reacting to his schemes. Looking back, even that one episode was more about Baelish than I realized, because the Hot Topic makeover ended up being about him and how he wanted to see her (the shot of him ogling her on the stairs), just as her new look is about how Ramsay wants to see her.

[SeanC]

I'm increasingly thinking the Pink Letter is out of the show.  Granted, this wouldn't be the first time the show has had things happen still while removing most of the reasoning, but look at the text:

(1)  Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.
(2)  Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

(3)  I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

(1)  The idea of Jon endangering the Watch via association with Stannis has been completely dropped from the show.  Nobody warns about that, the Boltons aren't even talking about him, and, indeed, show!Jon hasn't actually given Stannis any advice, etc. that would be contrary to his oath (unless I'm forgetting something).  The conflict between Jon and the other Watchmen that leads to his assassination has, in the show, been exclusively about his outreach to the Wildlings, not his endangering the Watch's neutrality.

(2)  There's no Mance Rayder, and thus no involvement by Jon in the plot.

(3)  All of those people have either been cut from the show, or are actually with Stannis.  Granted, it's possible that Sansa could be sent off like Jeyne is, and thus be bound there, but it's much more slender in terms of connection.

 

On the show, as it stands, the Pink Letter would basically be Ramsay out of nowhere deciding to send Jon a letter saying "ha ha ha, I raped your sister."

[DigitalCount]

Couldn't it be rewritten to be about Sansa escaping with Theon instead, perhaps with an assist from Brienne? We can be pretty sure that they get away at some point, and maybe they even take Myranda with them. And Ramsay wouldn't have to be a genius to assume that they would seek shelter at the Wall. For all they know, his brothers are there too, as they haven't heard from Locke in a while.

I think we still have enough motivation for Ramsay to antagonize Jon, and it's such a classic set-up of counterparts that I cannot imagine it being passed up. This is especially true since the shocking conclusion is shocking.

[Winnief]

I agree with SeanC.  The way it's set up on the show there's no need for the Pink Letter.  And while I appreciate the way the books dealt with the tensions of accepting support from Stannis while having to maintain the appearance of 'neutrality,' I do think for the purposes of the show it made more sense to keep the focus on the Wildling issue and why that would be so hard for so many of the Crows to accept.  Though, it is entirely possible even likely that Jon eventually does hear about Sansa's marriage to Ramsay from someone else and I can't imagine he'll be happy to hear it.

 

What I am hoping will happen is that once Sansa escapes/flees the Boltons with Theon, she approaches Stannis to assist him in taking Winterfell-possibly by leading him through the Winterfell crypts.  I'm not saying that it would reconcile me to That Scene but it would be a good direction for the future at any rate.  Then my guess is that while the Bolton's are defeated in battle, Stannis might be killed and/or mortally wounded as well. 

[magdalene]

I thought the showrunners were actually quite restrained with the Sansa scene. When I watched the episode Sunday I was still in shock and reeling from a horrificly brutal and pornographic episode of OUTLANDER . It made me quite grateful Ron Moore is not the showrunner on Game of Thrones.

 

I believe Sansa will survive this and will become stronger from it. And hopefully Ramsay won't live much longer. 

 

There are a lot of things I don't like about this TV adaptation but since I don't believe that the books will ever be finished the TV show is now the only game in town for those of us who want  a pay-off and a conclusion to this story universe. All I can hope for is that they don't fuck it up too badly.

[Avaleigh]

I thought the showrunners were actually quite restrained with the Sansa scene. When I watched the episode Sunday I was still in shock and reeling from a horrificly brutal and pornographic episode of OUTLANDER . It made me quite grateful Ron Moore is not the showrunner on Game of Thrones.

I actually feel like the showrunners don't get enough credit for refraining from including a lot of the nastiness that's in the books. 

 

Show!Lollys is basically a happy, carefree woman whose biggest concern is planning her wedding. 

 

Characters like Pia and the dusky woman are nonexistent. The showrunners passed on the opportunity for some gratuitous sex by having the character of Taena Merryweather included. Same with the Kettleblacks. 

 

Brienne and Jaime come upon some prostitutes who were lynched but it's still a drop in the bucket compared to the horrible shit that Brienne sees during her travels in AFFC where she's seeing dead women who've been ravaged and had their breasts chewed off. 

 

We don't have Littlefinger delivering boys to Lyn Corbray. 

 

A lot less rape from the Dothraki.

 

This isn't even getting into the restraint they've shown in terms of violence. I definitely think that the showrunners deserve more credit than they're given in terms of supposedly being over the top when it comes to things that are potentially shocking to viewers. 

[InsertWordHere]

I thought the showrunners were actually quite restrained with the Sansa scene. When I watched the episode Sunday I was still in shock and reeling from a horrificly brutal and pornographic episode of OUTLANDER . It made me quite grateful Ron Moore is not the showrunner on Game of Thrones.

Having stomached my way through the first book of that series, most of what was shown wasn't invented by Ronald Moore. The book really is that brutal and pornographic. While a case could be made that ASoIaF is just as brutal and violent as Outlander, I believe that Sansa's show story has now eclipsed the brutality of her story in the source material, restrained or not. If we look at Sansa as Jeyne Poole's replacement in this adaptation, then I definitely agree it could have been much worse. It still could be worse on the show, but I hope it isn't.

[leoff]

I'm increasingly thinking the Pink Letter is out of the show.  

 

I'm not sure of that. The show made Jon send a letter to the Boltons, so the Boltons know for sure a Stark bastard lives nearby with a small army. Davos told Jon the North would be better without the Boltons and the Night's Watch vows shouldn't prevent Jon of doing something about it. Also several hints of something bad happening to Stannis. I can picture a scenario where Brienne helps Sansa and Theon to scape, Stannis is seemingly defeated and Ramsay thinks Sansa went to Jon. As soon Jon is back from Hardhome, Ramsay's letter inform him Sansa was his captive wife and Stannis is dead. Enraged about Sansa and guilty about not helping Stannis, Jon decides to march against the Boltons and then... Knifes in the dark.

Edited May 21, 2015 by leoff

[Winnief]

I'm not sure of that. The show made Jon send a letter to the Boltons, so the Boltons know for sure a Stark bastard lives nearby with a small army. Davos told Jon the North would be better without the Boltons and the Night's Watch vows shouldn't prevent Jon of doing something about it. Also several hints of something bad happening to Stannis. I can picture a scenario where Brienne helps Sansa and Theon to scape, Stannis is seemingly defeated and Ramsay thinks Sansa went to Jon. As soon Jon is back from Hardhome, Ramsay's letter inform him Sansa was his captive wife and Stannis is dead. Enraged about Sansa and guilty about not helping Stannis, Jon decides to march against the Boltons and then... Knifes in the dark.

 

Possible Leoff but I don't see Ramsay surviving the season, and I don't know how he'd have a chance to get the pink letter out first.

 

BTW, given the (relatively) slow pace so far, and the number of climaxes they appear to be building to, (not to mention all the upcoming character deaths,) I'm going to be curious to see how they fit everything in during the final episodes 

[Happy Harpy]

About the Pink Letter, I agree with @leoff about the Boltons being aware of Jon's existence. They went as far as including him in Locke's contract on the Stark children's head. With the show well into its second half, if they spent screentime on it it's probably significant. 

 

On the other hand, I agree with @SeanC that the discontent and Jon's isolation were established enough already to justify FTW...especially if I believe the promo for episode 7.

 

On the other other hand (?) I could see Olly grudgingly accept to swallow his parents' murder because he respects Jon being a principled man, until the moment Jon refuses to accept something bad happening to his own family, making him an hypocrite in Olly's eyes.

 

The other thing against the Pink letter imo is that in the books, the Jon/Arya bond was so strong, and there were many reminders of it. It made sense that he would forsake everything for his beloved sister Arya of all people.

Personally, even when I relied only on the show, I just had to see Needle to remember the scene of the gift (it's really incredible, actually, how powerful it was to me as an Unsullied) and their bond. Same when I saw Arya hide her sword, it's the first image that came to me when I saw her on the verge of tears on the pier. 

I don't remember that Sansa and Jon even had screentime together, and contrary to the books, she wasn't mentioned in his refusal of the North. So Jon going for Sansa and not Arya would have imo less impact, in a show that tries otherwise to heighten the emotional resonance.

Unless it's another shortcut and there's some Jon/Sansa ahead in the books (which I would like as much as Tyrion would like rehab, but well, Jon and redheads). 

Or maybe, Jon just knows that it's "his sister" and thinks it's Arya, in what would be adapting in a way the Alys Karstark/Arya confusion. 

 

Sorry for the lack of sense, just writing my ideas as they come. But definitely, will all those possibilities, I'm very interested to see how it will play out. It's actually the fun of adaptations when they deviate from the original story. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[sev]

[...]   I don't  like the idea that a crime defines the VICTIM.   It will ALWAYS say more about the perpetrator than the victim IMO.

 

You're absolutely right. The rape doesn't imply Sansa was weak nor diminishes her previous accomplishments. Nevertheless the crime does affects the victim, in terms of story arc it's relevant because what happens to characters is defining for their story as it is a work of fiction.

 

It's true, we don't know what will happen in the books, but as the situation was constructed in the show, it is contrived plot-wise (LF marrying her off) and it's lazy and redundant in what the story wants to communicate (Ramsay very bad, now Sansa & co will really really have revenge).

[nksarmi]

I'm not sure of that. The show made Jon send a letter to the Boltons, so the Boltons know for sure a Stark bastard lives nearby with a small army. Davos told Jon the North would be better without the Boltons and the Night's Watch vows shouldn't prevent Jon of doing something about it. Also several hints of something bad happening to Stannis. I can picture a scenario where Brienne helps Sansa and Theon to scape, Stannis is seemingly defeated and Ramsay thinks Sansa went to Jon. As soon Jon is back from Hardhome, Ramsay's letter inform him Sansa was his captive wife and Stannis is dead. Enraged about Sansa and guilty about not helping Stannis, Jon decides to march against the Boltons and then... Knifes in the dark.

I suspect the show is not going to go there. 

 

First, I am not 100% sure we are going to get knifes in the dark.  I know it seems like such a huge plot point in the book and we have had years to debate rather or not Jon Snow lives.  So it seems like the show runners would have to put the unspoiled through the same cliffhanger.  However, I think that might be exactly why they WON'T do it. 

 

The show runners are now at the point where they get to surprise even book readers.  They know what role Jon plays in all of this and if his cliff hanger death isn't important - they might figure, why bother?  Without Mel at the Wall to warn him of his fate and/or play a part in reviving him - I can't help but wonder if they are changing Jon's story a bit. And can you imagine the love they could get from readers if they just go ahead and answer the question of Jon's fate this season?

 

So with that said, IF we get knifes in the dark - I think (hope) they will either resurrect him immediately or at least show us how it will be done.  And IF we do get knifes in the dark, I think it's going to be to setup just how right Jon is about needing to unite with the wildlings against the white walkers.  So to make that clear to the viewers, I think they are going to cut out what might be a reasonable explanation to the Night's Watch betraying him.  And I feel like we are way overdue for a reminder about what the real threat to Westerous is in this story.

 

Therefore, I imagine this playing out like Jon has made the argument that the danger of the white walkers is too great, some of the Night's Watch betray him, and then a white walker attack happens, and Jon leads them in a fight while injured - maybe we even get to see some wildlings save some crows in the process.  So while Jon might be dying of his injuries at the end of the season with ghost by his side or something along those line - I think it will play out very differently than the betrayal in the books.  This is going to be used to show that Jon is right and cement the alliance going forward - I think.

Possible Leoff but I don't see Ramsay surviving the season, and I don't know how he'd have a chance to get the pink letter out first.

 

BTW, given the (relatively) slow pace so far, and the number of climaxes they appear to be building to, (not to mention all the upcoming character deaths,) I'm going to be curious to see how they fit everything in during the final episodes 

I agree about Ramsey's death - this show needs to kill a big villain this season.  My partner keeps talking about how this season has a slow pace and they only have four episodes left to make an impact.  I can't believe for a minute that Ramsey matters in the long run of these books.  Assuming Sansa does in some capacity, letting her have her revenge and be the instrument of Ramsey's death would be very rewarding to the viewers this season.

[Silje]

I think this review has some pretty good points about why people are pissed off by what the show did regarding Sansa's story. 

 

The HBO showrunners thought they could throw Sansa into Jeyne's place, simplify the narrative, and give Theon his redemptive "moment of clarity" at the expense of a character who not only has an independent story of her own, but almost certainly a more important one. The result was the butchery of Sansa's character, and for what? So Ramsay could look more evil? So Theon could look more tormented? So Sansa could, once again, play the role of the eternal victim? I thought Game of Thrones was better than this, and so did a lot of other people I know. It saddens and angers me to learn that we were wrong.

 

I'm no writer but if Harry the Heir and the Vale end up not being important and Sansa will head up North somehow, there must have been other ways of achieving that than having her be, as the reviewer put it, "a prop for the Reek's Redemption angle". Because what happened on the show made no fucking sense.   

 

How could Sansa get any revenge by marrying Ramsay? If Littlefinger knew about Stannis, why the flying fuck would he bring Sansa to the Boltons before Stannis had a chance of taking Winterfell? 

 

The one thing that stood out for me was that Littlefinger wants the Vale army to take Winterfell in the show like in the books. Does this mean Sansa gets married to Harry and have the Vale army march North? If they are working toward that on the show wouldn't it make more sense for Sansa to stay engaged to Robin in the Vale and get the Vale support that way (Robin was pretty keen on killing people for Sansa), instead of the bullshit the show is serving us?

[Holmbo]

Nice to see there's more varied opinions about the grey wedding (or should it be white wedding?) than I first thought. When I first came here after having watched the episode it seemed to me like everyone was hating it. So I just posted a small "I didn't hate it" and left again because honestly I really didn't have that much interest in discussing this episode as a whole. To me it was one of the worst episodes of the show. Maybe even the worst. Because of the horrible Dorne plot and also the Arya plot (which most people seem to enjoy ok but I really dislike).

 

Anyway I feel like with Sansa's plot one of the main reasons of complain people have is that we where promised Sansa finally taking some agency this season. The suddenly we're back to her meekly going along with other peoples plans for her and seemingly doing nothing to affect her situation.

The reason I don't mind this is that I still expect her to do influence the plot. if she just waits around the entire season for Stannis to arrive then I'll be pissed. But right now I still think there are lots of things she can do to affect her situation. There are no guarantees though. Maybe she will indeed be just helpless woman this entire season. I just think it's too early to tell.

 

I'll add another final point related to DigitalCounts post. Plots become so much more interesting when we have someone to root for in them. Right now I'm really not interested in KL because why do I care if Margaery beats Cersei or not? By having Sansa in Winterfell I'm invested in what's happening in that plot. This then means I'm more invested in Stannis because he's actions will affect the situation in Winterfell.

[Advance35]

Well I think everyone is pretty set in their viewpoint on the whole thing.  Those that hated it will continue to do so, those who see it as another plot point in an ongoing story will continue to do so.   I thought the scene was well acted by all and I am curious as to where Sansa is going to go from here.

 

The audience was shown that Sansa CHOSE to go along with LF and his idea of ingratiating themselves to House Bolton.   She didn't like him but she chose to go along with him.   A choice she made.   She said she would rather die than marry a Bolton and she could have at the Wedding Ceremony but she chose to go through with the marriage.    She stood up to creepy Myranda.  I think Sansa has plenty of agency but I don't think having agency means coming out ahead in every sitation that presents itself.   That would make her a Deus Ex-Machina.   She'll win some she'll lose some.   That doesn't make her weak or meek IMO.

 

I can't get with this idea that Sansa's character has been butchered.   The only thing that's changed is her virginity status, and for me, that wasn't a defining aspect of her character. (Shrug)

[Hecate7]

For the record for me,  this is more about HOW these writers choose to portray and use rape and has less to do with Sansa or her story being "ruined". It's that ZERO VALUE has been added *to* Sansa's story just to incite THEON to action. It's that Sansa a main, POV character is being collapsed into a relatively random, minor character in the form of Jeyne Poole, who is left pretty much a gibbering bag of wibber after her experience with Ramsay.

 

Sansa has already dealt with the murder of her family, physical abuse at the hands of Joffrey, nearly raped by a mob, he marriage to Tyrion, set up for Joffrey's murder, nearly raped by the singer, molested by Petyr, and indeed we were shown and TOLD by the narrative this year that Sansa is becoming  a "player", she is trying to take some agency over her life, and the exact moment she expresses a real backbone to anyone in this case Myranda, she is punished for it by being raped. Haha poor dumb stupid dumb Sansa, what a joke she thought she could play The Game of Thrones. This time is special and unique, because all that other trauma wasn't enough to enrage her, to wise her up, to learn her good.

 

On a purely META level I'm never going to get over it, how gross it was, how lame and cliche and tacky and cheap. In terms of Sansa's arc, in show, of course I'll have empathy for her, of course I will still ROOT for her, but before this episode I wanted dead eviscerated Ramsay, and after this episode I wand dead eviscerated Ramsay. Before this episode I wanted Sansa to break free of her captors, and after I still want her to break free of her captors. So I'm never going to agree they had to go there, and going there was a choice, and an offensive terrible gratuitous choice at that.

 

I think what's really getting to me is the idea that trauma is supposed to wise someone up? Like Sansa's only getting raped because her character's not developed enough yet? I don't get this idea that at some point the universe magically decides that you've suffered enough, and brings no more trauma your way. That's not what happens, not in life and not in fiction.

 

A difference in how Sansa handles her trauma, is probably something we'll see gradually, but it won't be some kind of Karate Kid moment.

[Holmbo]

Well I think everyone is pretty set in their viewpoint on the whole thing.  Those that hated it will continue to do so, those who see it as another plot point in an ongoing story will continue to do so.   I thought the scene was well acted by all and I am curious as to where Sansa is going to go from here.

 

The audience was shown that Sansa CHOSE to go along with LF and his idea of ingratiating themselves to House Bolton.   She didn't like him but she chose to go along with him.   A choice she made.   She said she would rather die than marry a Bolton and she could have at the Wedding Ceremony but she chose to go through with the marriage.    She stood up to creepy Myranda.  I think Sansa has plenty of agency but I don't think having agency means coming out ahead in every sitation that presents itself.   That would make her a Deus Ex-Machina.   She'll win some she'll lose some.   That doesn't make her weak or meek IMO.

 

I can't get with this idea that Sansa's character has been butchered.   The only thing that's changed is her virginity status, and for me, that wasn't a defining aspect of her character. (Shrug)

No I definitely didn't mean she'll have to succeed. I just don't want her to be a passive victim. The show had two scenes where I think it was suggested that she made a choice to marry Ramsay but in both cases I find one could just as well view it as her having no alternative. If LF really cared about her opinion on the whole thing he would have asked her about it before they left on the trip. And if She refuses to marry Bolton what use is she alive to them? Sure she's been a bit sassy talking to Myranda and smirking and Ramsay. But she hasn't actually made any attempt to influence the situation to her advantage. Choosing to not kill herself doesn't count IMO.

 

I don't think that being raped butchers Sansa's character but I think it would be problematic to her character if she spends this entire season as a passive victim. There are only two seasons left of the show after this one. If Sansa is supposed to be a person of importance by the end of the story they need to have her actually do something. I'm not saying this can't happen in further episodes. Just that I don't feel we've seen it so far.

[Happy Harpy]

Well I think everyone is pretty set in their viewpoint on the whole thing.  Those that hated it will continue to do so, those who see it as another plot point in an ongoing story will continue to do so.   I thought the scene was well acted by all and I am curious as to where Sansa is going to go from here.

 

I can't get with this idea that Sansa's character has been butchered.   The only thing that's changed is her virginity status, and for me, that wasn't a defining aspect of her character. (Shrug)

Pretty much. What resonated with me was a character being deprived of what little she had left of her innocence, and to be honest it was more efficient in matter of "no one is safe" than Ned's beheading. They do kick puppies and kittens on this show, actually they rape puppies and kitten.  

 

If one character was butchered because of rape on the show, for me, it's a man. Jaime has one redeeming feature imo: He can't stand the rape and abuse of women. This was taken away from him. I know I'm supposed to ignore it in universe but I unfortunately can't unwatch the scene. 

I hate Cersei, whereas I pity Sansa. I was disturbed by the Jaime/Cersei scene, whereas I had trouble even watching the screen during the bedding scene. And yet looking back, I'm more pissed off by the Sept scene because it was completely out of character, which made it gratuitous and contrived and it was imo one of the biggest mistakse the show ever made.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Winnief]

I don't think that being raped butchers Sansa's character but I think it would be problematic to her character if she spends this entire season as a passive victim. There are only two seasons left of the show after this one. If Sansa is supposed to be a person of importance by the end of the story they need to have her actually do something. I'm not saying this can't happen in further episodes. Just that I don't feel we've seen it so far.

 

Well said!  I'm starting to process my initial abhorrence of that scene and while I'll never be completely fine with it, I *might* be able to reconcile myself to it...but it all depends on what happens next for Sansa this season. 

 

Basically if the rape scene was the final low point, for Sansa before she becomes a power player in her own right, then that's one thing, but if we continue to see her as a pawn/victim for another freaking season, that's something else.

[Avaleigh]

I was disturbed by the Jaime/Cersei scene, whereas I had trouble even watching the screen during the bedding scene. And yet looking back, I'm more pissed off by the Sept scene because it was completely out of character, which made it gratuitous and contrived and it was imo one of the biggest mistakse the show ever made.

So much of this. I could understand why people were frustrated. It was a completely WTF and it seemed like not everyone involved was on the same page as far as whether it was or wasn't supposed to be rape. It's a situation where I honestly wish they'd had Lena dub in a couple of extra words of dialogue so that they could have changed it for the DVDs. Agreed that it's easily one of the biggest mistakes the show has ever made. I also get the argument that in this case it was unnecessary because the matter is never referred to again and is treated as though it didn't happen. Presumably because a rape didn't actually happen in showverse even though a rape scene was filmed that included dialogue that supports that interpretation so much so that most reviewers interpreted it that way.

 

When I think of things both big and small that have annoyed me in the past about the show these are the top things that comes to mind:

 

Septgate

Sexposition specifically that ridiculous scene with Littlefinger and the prostitutes

Shireen being blonde after all the damned emphasis on hair color in this series (Seriously, this one was just dumb.) 

Balon Greyjoy being left in the air

Bloodraven having two eyes (Petty, I know, but whatever.)

Ellaria being made into a bloodthirsty fool

Tywin not having the sense to call Cersei on her bluff when she threatened to blow up their house. Yeah right. 

Tyrion practically crying as he killed Shae. 

Melisandre being shown in the tub without wearing the necklace. It might not turn out to be anything but I think it's significant that we've never seen her without the ruby in the books.

The full title for the monarch of Westeros not including the Rhoynish people. It especially annoys me now that they're putting so much time into Dorne. Honestly if it weren't Jaime and Bronn in Dorne I'd totally fast forward because I agree with the general consensus that this storyline isn't working.

 

I think what's really getting to me is the idea that trauma is supposed to wise someone up? Like Sansa's only getting raped because her character's not developed enough yet? I don't get this idea that at some point the universe magically decides that you've suffered enough, and brings no more trauma your way. That's not what happens, not in life and not in fiction.

 

A difference in how Sansa handles her trauma, is probably something we'll see gradually, but it won't be some kind of Karate Kid moment.

The bit in bold is what it is for me in a nutshell. It's like the idea is that it's unfair to have a character suffer if they've already suffered. It's bad writing because it means that the character/s are supposedly in the same place that they've been in for x amount of seasons and that this shouldn't be the case because Sansa is apparently due to start kicking ass on some level, Sansa apparently being due because she's suffered in the past.

[SeanC]

The bit in bold is what it is for me in a nutshell. It's like the idea is that it's unfair to have a character suffer if they've already suffered. It's bad writing because it means that the character/s are supposedly in the same place that they've been in for x amount of seasons and that this shouldn't be the case because Sansa is apparently due to start kicking ass on some level, Sansa apparently being due because she's suffered in the past.

It's nothing to do with her being "apparently due", and everything to do with that being the tenor set by both the source material and (ironically) even more strongly by the show itself.  Sansa's already had the "helpless victim of the world" arc.  And it's especially bizarre because the show, in 408, after neglecting her development since the end of season 1, suddenly pushed her way head of even where the book character is at the equivalent point.  And then completely forgot about it the following season, where the only trace of 408's big leap forward is her wardrobe change (which is also gone now, seemingly).

[benteen]

No I definitely didn't mean she'll have to succeed. I just don't want her to be a passive victim. The show had two scenes where I think it was suggested that she made a choice to marry Ramsay but in both cases I find one could just as well view it as her having no alternative. If LF really cared about her opinion on the whole thing he would have asked her about it before they left on the trip. And if She refuses to marry Bolton what use is she alive to them? Sure she's been a bit sassy talking to Myranda and smirking and Ramsay. But she hasn't actually made any attempt to influence the situation to her advantage. Choosing to not kill herself doesn't count IMO.

 

I don't think that being raped butchers Sansa's character but I think it would be problematic to her character if she spends this entire season as a passive victim. There are only two seasons left of the show after this one. If Sansa is supposed to be a person of importance by the end of the story they need to have her actually do something. I'm not saying this can't happen in further episodes. Just that I don't feel we've seen it so far.

 

I agree with this.  We keep hearing that Sansa made the choice to go to the North.  She did only after Littlefinger managed to change her mind.  I don't believe for a second though that Sansa had a real choice...LF would have found some way to bring her up North.

 

In any event, Sansa went up North after LF told her to avenge her family.  But once she gets up North, she does nothing but sulk.  She isn't actively plotting anything, except maybe to wait until Stannis arrives.

 

The show might have made Sansa chose to go North and not be a victim.  But she doesn't come across as anything other than a victim on her wedding night, just like she has in previous seasons.  This is a failing of the show.

[Portia4844]

It’s been hard watching Sansa go from being so loved and protected that she could have the luxury of romantic illusions to being victimized over and over and over again.   I want her to reach a place where she becomes clever and calculating and whatever else it takes for her to survive this.  I want her to discover who she can trust and who she can work with so that she can escape and/or destroy Ramsey and Roose.  

 

I view the wedding night as the last illusion shattered.  There’s no longer any chance of losing her virginity in a relationship where she is loved and treated with kindness.  Her journey to becoming someone different than how she started out was never going to happen quickly.  She has, however, survived the endless abuse and survived having her illusions shattered without becoming completely broken.   I want her to change because it’s uncomfortable watching her continually being abused.   It’s realistic that it would take time for her to become clever and calculating and to know who is trustworthy enough to work with her in escaping and/or in destroying Roose and Ramsey. 

 

It has to be a daunting task to reduce these books to 10 episodes per season while developing and changing specific characters to where they need to be for the final outcome.  Everyone who will survive until the end has to go through an entire personality change.  I can wish that a particular person would grow and change quicker or that the writers would choose another way for someone to become who they need to be…..but, I still know that whatever the experience, it’s all leading to the personality change that’s needed.

[mac123x]

Nice to see there's more varied opinions about the grey wedding (or should it be white wedding?) than I first thought. When I first came here after having watched the episode it seemed to me like everyone was hating it. So I just posted a small "I didn't hate it" and left again because honestly I really didn't have that much interest in discussing this episode as a whole. To me it was one of the worst episodes of the show. Maybe even the worst. Because of the horrible Dorne plot and also the Arya plot (which most people seem to enjoy ok but I really dislike).

 

Anyway I feel like with Sansa's plot one of the main reasons of complain people have is that we where promised Sansa finally taking some agency this season. The suddenly we're back to her meekly going along with other peoples plans for her and seemingly doing nothing to affect her situation.

The reason I don't mind this is that I still expect her to do influence the plot. if she just waits around the entire season for Stannis to arrive then I'll be pissed. But right now I still think there are lots of things she can do to affect her situation. There are no guarantees though. Maybe she will indeed be just helpless woman this entire season. I just think it's too early to tell.

 

I'll add another final point related to DigitalCounts post. Plots become so much more interesting when we have someone to root for in them. Right now I'm really not interested in KL because why do I care if Margaery beats Cersei or not? By having Sansa in Winterfell I'm invested in what's happening in that plot. This then means I'm more invested in Stannis because he's actions will affect the situation in Winterfell.

 

Bolded part got me to thinking -- during the Battle of the Blackwater, Cercei advised Sansa that one of their biggest dangers was traitors inside the walls.  It'd be a nice call-back if Sansa turns out to be the traitor inside Winterfell who opens a postern door for Stannis's army.  Plus it'd give her some active participation in her own rescue.

[SeanC]

I view the wedding night as the last illusion shattered.  There’s no longer any chance of losing her virginity in a relationship where she is loved and treated with kindness.  

There's been nothing to indicate she had such an illusion.  Indeed, she'd already agreed to the marriage explicitly out of revenge.

[MrWhyt]

It's nothing to do with her being "apparently due", and everything to do with that being the tenor set by both the source material and (ironically) even more strongly by the show itself.  Sansa's already had the "helpless victim of the world" arc.  And it's especially bizarre because the show, in 408, after neglecting her development since the end of season 1, suddenly pushed her way head of even where the book character is at the equivalent point.  And then completely forgot about it the following season, where the only trace of 408's big leap forward is her wardrobe change (which is also gone now, seemingly).

Character development does not always go in a straight line, who says she can't have more than 1 "helpless victim of the world" arc. I admit it would be boring if she returns to exactly the same character place, but there's nothing wrong with her returning to the neighborhood.

[SeanC]

Character development does not always go in a straight line, who says she can't have more than 1 "helpless victim of the world" arc. I admit it would be boring if she returns to exactly the same character place, but there's nothing wrong with her returning to the neighborhood.

She's in literally the same place, except with rape:  trapped in a castle, hostage to a family that killed her family, and waiting to be rescued by Stannis.

[Skeeter22]

She also has a secret ally sending her messages with the promise of help just like in her book plot. I guess D&D realized it was mistake to eliminate Sansa actively plotting with Dontos in season 2 and 3 and now they are letting her reach out to Theon and Brienne. They are rehashing her King's Landing story now with more rape and 12% more agency. Maybe we should be grateful.

[MrWhyt]

She's in literally the same place, except with rape:  trapped in a castle, hostage to a family that killed her family, and waiting to be rescued by Stannis.

She's back in her home, with allies both known and unknown to her, a position she's never been in before.

[BlackberryJam]

Well. It's not the Sansa Stark Show, although they see her story as important enough for her to be in every episode. She is certainly not the weeping huddled delusional mess she was before. I'd love a couple of Sansa free episode. There is so much more exciting stuff to see.

Has it ever been verified that Episode 10 is titled Winter?

[SeanC]

She's back in her home, with allies both known and unknown to her, a position she's never been in before.

It being her home is really not that important when the Boltons control it.  She had allies in KL, too (indeed, the show went out of its way to make it look like she had tons of friends there).

[MrWhyt]

It being her home is really not that important when the Boltons control it.  She had allies in KL, too (indeed, the show went out of its way to make it look like she had tons of friends there).

Who did she have in King's Landing? Littlefinger and the Tyrells were/are both in it for themselves/their family. Tyrion and her were starting to get along but he was powerless once Tywin came into the picture. The best she could hope for with him was a comfortable life back in Casterly Rock. Friends aren't allies, the people of Winterfell will follow her over any Bolton because she is a Stark. The Boltons have a tenuous grasp on The North, having a Stark back in Winterfell, combined with Stannis's attack could be all that is needed to start a revolt against them.

[Portia4844]

There's been nothing to indicate she had such an illusion.  Indeed, she'd already agreed to the marriage explicitly out of revenge.

 

Fair enough.  Once she agreed to the marriage, she would have had to let go of that fairy tale.   However, it seems unlikely that revenge is the only motivator in agreeing to marry Ramsey unless she has that much faith in Littlefinger, Stannis, or her own ability to make it happen.   It's a rather bold move for someone who has been extremely passive.  

[SeanC]

Littlefinger and the Tyrells were/are both in it for themselves/their family.

The show portrayed the Tyrells (or Marg, at least, the only Tyrell she ever interacted with meaningfully) as her sincere friends, cutting the whole point of that arc, where Sansa realizes that they don't give a damn about her.

[MrWhyt]

The show portrayed the Tyrells (or Marg, at least, the only Tyrell she ever interacted with meaningfully) as her sincere friends, cutting the whole point of that arc, where Sansa realizes that they don't give a damn about her.

Her sincere friends who used her to smuggle in the poison that killed Joffery, and then let Littlefinger set her and her husband up as the murderers.

[DigitalCount]

Yeah, I have a serious problem with calling the Tyrells Sansa's friends. That's like, well hey, Roose Bolton is such a great friend to Robb right until it's time for the reception. They had to know she'd be blamed for murdering the king; she actually had more evidence pointing against her than Tyrion until Joffrey antagonized him. She was wearing the necklace, and she peaced out when the sheep shift hit the fan.

[SeanC]

Hey, I'm not saying it's logical, I'm saying that's how the show presented it (they also made Margaery completely unaware of the Purple Wedding plot, so she's not to blame for that anyway).  Hence, they cut the whole point of the Sansa/Tyrell arc for Sansa's character, where she realizes that they don't care about her.

[snowblossom2]

So then it makes no difference if D&D chose to do this because of what happens to Sansa in the next book? D&D should choose to ignore Sansa's rape in the books (assuming this is what made them make this choice) because that's the only way that Sansa's story can be told in a meaningful way? I think ignoring something like rape, if it happens to the character in the books, would be a disservice to the character because something like that shouldn't easily be swept under the rug as though it didn't happen. Surely a rape would have a huge impact on future decisions the character would make not to mention how it would impact her emotionally. I can totally see why they wouldn't want to ignore that.

Exactly. This is what I'm struggling to understand. They're all being shipped off to hell together--why should Sansa be any different? Again I'm seeing it stated that Sansa has already been through too much so it's essentially overkill and unimaginative to have her character be a victim again even though IMO it makes sense within the story considering that Sansa is now married to a sadistic monster like Ramsay.

I feel like the bottom line is that Sansa can only be interesting for some if she's winning and doesn't have anything else bad happen to her for the remainder of the story. I disagree that the only way to make Sansa interesting is to make her go cannibal on the Boltons/Freys or for her to kill as many people as possible.

I think it's clear that the idea didn't come from some future plot but that they decided to use Sansa instead of Jeyne Pool for Jeyne Pool's marriage to Ramsey storyline to have that storyline have more impact.

[Pete Martell]

The funny part is that if Baelish had not been so blase about leaving Sansa with butchers, Olenna's plan would have actually protected Sansa more than it did her own family, who were left to be destroyed by a lunatic while Olenna took a breather to find yet more witty rejoinders.