Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Danny Franks]

Anyone else think that a 2h HBO flick (or 3-4h miniseries) about the Robert rebellion would be fantastic?  I trust GRRM to write a truly badass script.  Imagine the Trident, the drama during the sack of King's Landing, the siege of Storm's End, and then Tower of Joy, which is really the part that would lend an epic dimension to the story.  Oh and also the smuggling of Dany and Viserys out.

 

 

I'd love to watch a miniseries on Robert's Rebellion. Starting with the Tournament at Harrenhal and ending with Ned riding into Winterfell with Jon in his arms, it would be an epic, epic story to tell.

 

Seeing Brandon ride into Kings Landing, demanding Rhaegar's head, and the dominos falling as a result. Seeing Jaime forced to stand and watch the Starks burn, Jon Arryn raising his banners in rebellion rather than hand over Robert and Ned, the Battle of the Trident and Robert defeating Rhaegar, Jaime killing Aerys. But most of all, I want to see the scene outside the Tower of Joy:

 

"Now it begins."

"No. Now it ends."

 

Great scene, and I think that GRRM really excels at writing evocative little snippets like that. It's just his long form writing that tends to become unwieldy and fall apart.

[blixie]

 

Hopefully more exposition will come tonight.

 

Can they find a way for Sansa to be naked while LF does it though? Seriously though I don't  know how you embark on Sansa at the Eerie w/o having him laying out everything he did, leading up to his pushing Lysa out the Moon Door. It's pretty much Little Fingers School of Manipulation, and Sansa's time to get savvy. They already robbed Sansa of kind figuring out for herself that her necklace/hairnet was the key to poisoning Joffrey, not having that scene where she turns the gears herself, undermined LF's "confirmation" when he smashed the necklace. God only knows how they'll respond to LF fingering QoT, I'm not sure any amount of "tell" will reconcile what they showed or didn't, in either Joff's case or the rape.

 

I care a bit less about the Joffrey sent the assassin bit, because it seemed like an afterthought reveal in the books as well, I think GRRM just needed to motivate Cat to do something catastrophically stupid, and kidnapping Tyrion.

[ebevan91]

Tonight's episode is a Bryan Cogman episode. He has a pretty good track record so far, so I'm hoping his 2 episodes this season will be good as well.

[Haldebrandt]

i feel like whenever they take too long to disclose information like this in the show, the audience is apt to forget the significance of what happened.  I'm not sure why I feel this is the case - maybe because there is so much action, and so many characters.  It seems like you are encouraged more to anticipate 'what happens next?!' than mull over what just happened and how it all fits in.

 

An example of where this can be problematic is the whole Tysha problem, where I honestly think you'd be hard-pressed to find a show-only viewer who remember the name, the anecdote, and its significance.

 

I don't mean it as a snobbish book/show comparison - because it's not.  I enjoy the pace of the show, and I'm always still on the edge of my seat at the end of each episode, but I think the pace/eventfulness might pose problems when you're asked to recall stuff that happened way back in season 1.

 

Yeah I basically agree.  Some have felt that the Joff-Bran thing should have been revealed way back in S2 or 3.  But both in the book and in the series, I think it was important to wait until Jaime's "rehab", since he was the primary suspect and they didn't want to undermine his one-dimensional villain character just yet.  That's done now so...

 

As for Tysha, I trust that they will rehash the story this season, perhaps in another one of these long, rambling, and tedious monologues D&D are so fond of.  Or more elegantly, it may come up during the trial.

[Lady S.]

On another note altogether, are they ever gonna disclose who sent the assassin to kill Bran?  And will they ever clarify the Joffrey stuff?  Why are they dragging out mysteries in a story that is already stingy with its rewards?

I'm 95% sure the answer is never, since they left out Joffrey's line about Valyrian steel. I don't think it likely Tyrion and Jaime work it out on their own in the midst of everything else.

[Independent George]

I'm glad the Unsullied have picked up on the massive plot hole that is the magic necklace conspiracy, because it's bothered me since I first read it. I love the fact they picked up on something that not even many bookwalkers saw.

 

Everything that's wrong with it, summarized:

 

1. There is no need for the Tyrells to involve Littlefinger. If they want to poison Joffrey, they can do so without any assistance - he exposes them while offering nothing unique.
2. There is no need to use a poison necklace. It requires an unnecessarily long chain of events where everything needs to go right - Sansa has to wear it, Olenna has to snag the poison without anyone noticing, and she doesn't know if she'll have the opportunity to poison Joffrey after taking it.
3. The Tyrells could not have known that Dontos was going to run off with Sansa - so if (as they expect) she remained, the Lannisters would have found the fake jewelry with loose stone. From there, they can trace it back to Dontos, who could expose the conspiracy.
4. On the show, the Tyrells and Littlefinger were already at cross-purposes with regard to Sansa back in S3 (when they sabotaged her escape on his ship, and he sabotaged their attempt to marry her to Loras). This didn't happen in the books, so it's less of a hole, but that still leaves...
5. The Tyrells have to know that Littlefinger is behind Sansa's disappearance. Her escape depended on the chaos surrounding Joffrey's death, and clearly wasn't a coincidence; since their Littlefinger was evidently their co-conspirator, he's the only one who could have planned for it. Therefore...
6. The Tyrells know exactly where Sansa is, and Littlefinger's plans depend on it being a secret.

[Joystickenvy]

The hairnet/necklace thing wasn't an airtight plan, but I don't think it's a "massive" plot hole either. Bringing LF/Sansa in gives the Tyrells two more people to throw under the bus if Tyrion doesn't take the rap and the Tyrells fall under suspicion. In the book they did a bit better job of making sure Sansa had reason to wear the hairnet than the show did with the necklace.

If Olenna just handles it herself, there's more risk that she gets caught holding the bag, with this plan it's more the word of a lying liar who lies that she has to fear than actual evidence. Plus I think she wanted Sansa to be a suspect, but not actually hang for the crime & the LF plan gets her safely away from KL, while still having her as an option to blame if it comes to that. Plus we don't actually know who approached who with this plan to begin with.

I still think Tywin was also involved and consented to the Tommen/Marg match before the PW.

[Wilowy]

Cool article from the AV Club:

 

http://www.avclub.com/article/well-actually-books-15-differences-text-tv-game-th-203713

[blixie]

 

There is no need for the Tyrells to involve Littlefinger.

This presumes the idea to kill Joffrey emanated from the Tyrell's instead of from LF, after he a-bombed their attempt to marry Sansa to Wylas. I don't get how they are *less* exposed if they obtain the poison themselves, carry it on their persons into the wedding, and kill the King.

 

 

unnecessarily long chain of events

 

?? It's two, at most three steps: Give Sansa the poison, take poison from Sansa., poison Joffrey. QoT is on the dias with her target, she clearly DOES have the opportunity and knows it.

 

 

The Tyrells could not have known that Dontos was going to run off with Sansa

 

I think Olenna absolutely knew, and that it was one of LF selling points to her about the plot. He would spirit Sansa out, keep her "safe", but also cast suspicion away from them onto her, and LF tosses suspicion onto Tyrion in to boot.

 

 

The Tyrells know exactly where Sansa is,

No they know who she is with, not where she is, and again, both conspirators have something on the other, classic prisoners dillema, but essentially (as I think "The Tyrell's" boils down to Olenna and bit of Margery) I think the QoT much like the honey badger don't give a fuck. She's ready to pay the price.

It's a bummer that Olenna is willing to sacrifice Sansa in a hot second for it, but it's no less than I would expect of anyone in the game. Me and mine before you and yours, unless you are Ned and then you die.

[that one guy]

 

Who cares about Tysha? No one that I know of, including Tyrion. Does anyone even remember Tysha, in terms of the show? Shae is the relationship people have invested in, I think

 

This was my problem with the books! Tyrion murders his girlfriend, a character I like, and then is off whining about some girl who's not a character in the books whom he was married to for two weeks many years ago. He's like "oh, Tysha, Tysha," and I'm all "The hell with Tysha, what about Shae, you asshole? Die!" and I lost all sympathy for him. I really, really hope they don't go with that scene the same way on the TV show, because I felt like it was a major misstep in the books. GRRM has said he wants to make Tyrion a morally neutral character as opposed to a "goodguy" or "badguy," but killing Shae just made him irredeemably bad. It's the whole horrible "disposable sex worker" thing, I guess. I stopped watching True Blood after they had Bill procure a stripper to kill, I think it was partway into the 3rd season. I had read the books, and the book character would never do anything like that. And the show tried to make it "okay" by having him determine that she was just a sex worker, with no family. In other words, not a real person with value. But sex workers are people too, and killing one is no less wrong than killing a bank teller or social worker or UPS delivery guy. And my hatred for the character I'm supposed to forgive only increases the more the show tries to tell me the victim was worthless. Shae has no power and her life is in danger. What the hell is she supposed to do, be bravely tortured to death defending her man? F*** that. And f*** book Tyrion too. The show has a chance to do better.  

 

[Lady S.]

4. On the show, the Tyrells and Littlefinger were already at cross-purposes with regard to Sansa back in S3 (when they sabotaged her escape on his ship, and he sabotaged their attempt to marry her to Loras). This didn't happen in the books, so it's less of a hole, but that still leaves...

Yes, in show, the Tyrells only approached Sansa for a betrothal because of Varys. But Littlefinger did ruin the Sansa/Willas match in the book, so they were working at cross-purposes even if the Tyrells did so unintentionally. They don't know that Littlefinger sabotaged them. The Varys thing is a complication, but I guess Olenna never cared that much about stopping Littlefinger from being king of the ashes and/or she didn't see how Sansa could be useful for that after being an accessory to regicide.

 

IA with blixie that in the show, at least, Olenna deliberately helped Littlefinger get what she knew he wanted, after involving her in regicide. In-book, I don't get why Olenna wouldn't pick up on Sansa/Littlefinger after the PW at the very least, it was his idea to involve her with the poison, he had to have told Olenna to find the poison on Sansa, then Sansa escapes right after Joffrey is poisoned. I doubt Olenna buys the smallfolk story that Sansa turned it into a bat and flew out the window. But it's in the Tyrells' best interests for Sansa to stay gone and anyway they can't reveal how they know what happened to her even if they wanted to.

I think the timeline went something like this

1. Littlefinger plants the whispers of Joffrey's cruelty to Sansa when he's negotiating the marriage, which makes Olenna want to check things out with Sansa. He also convinces Mace to have Loras in the Kingsguard protecting Marg, which is a recipe for "Kingslayer stew" as he calls it.
2. Olenna and Marg meet Sansa, and learn the whispers were true. Littlefinger offers his help to Olenna in preventing Kingslayer stew with Loras, pretending he hasn't started already plotting this by giving Sansa the hairnet through Dontos. At the same time, the Tyrells take it upon themselves to try to snatch up the key to the North when she's right in front of them, and Littlefinger puts the kibosh on that while letting them think the Lannisters found out some other way because King's Landing is full of spies.
3. After Sansa is Tyrion's wife, Littlefinger lets Olenna know how the poison will get into the wedding, acting like this is a finishing touch and not something he arranged months ago, before the Tyrells ever met Sansa and learned the truth about Joffrey.

And we know from ADWD, that somewhere in there Littlefinger hired Penny and Groat and helped Joffrey plan their entertainment, maybe even joking that Tyrion should be involved.

 

It's still a complicated plan but isn't that also true of having Lysa kill Jon Arryn so Littlefinger could start a civil war and get his revenge on the Starks? Anyway, I wouldn't classify it as a definite plot hole.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Lady S.

[Carrie Ann]

Making sure that no one person would obtain, carry, and administer the poison might seem unnecessarily complicated, but it ensures silence on all sides. It keeps Sansa quiet, should she have wanted to tell someone to try to save Tyrion, because she was a part of the murder whether she knew it or not. Cersei wouldn't believe that she wasn't aware of the plan. I do think QoT and maybe Marg knew Sansa would be fleeing immediately, but I don't know what details they knew about that. Maybe I just love those Tyrells too much, but I do think they honestly cared about Sansa and wanted her to be safe, while also being willing to take some risks to her safety in executing the plan.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[mac123x]

I do think QoT and maybe Marg knew Sansa would be fleeing immediately, but I don't know what details they knew about that. Maybe I just love those Tyrells too much, but I do think they honestly cared about Sansa and wanted her to be safe, while also being willing to take some risks to her safety in executing the plan.

 

I agtee with that.  Since we haven't had a Littlefinger or Olenna PoV chapter, we don't really know the details of their arrangement.  It's possible that Littlefinger told the QoT that after Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is out of the way (either he's dead or it's dissolved because it hasn't been consumated), he'd ship Sansa to Highgarden to marry Wilas.  Basically he'd be promising Olenna the only claimant to Winterfell / the North (given all the other Starks are presumed dead).  He wouldn't need to tell her that he actually plans to marry Sansa to Harry the Heir.

[Independent George]

This presumes the idea to kill Joffrey emanated from the Tyrell's instead of from LF, after he a-bombed their attempt to marry Sansa to Wylas. I don't get how they are *less* exposed if they obtain the poison themselves, carry it on their persons into the wedding, and kill the King.

 

That makes it even worse. Littlefinger is a complete stranger who just arrived to broker a marriage with Joffrey. So this complete stranger arrives full of praise for Joffrey, and then he steps aside and proposes to assassinate him? Why on earth would they take him up on it? Littlefinger himself says he has no motive to do so - so why would the Tyrells trust him? 

 

The Tyrells are less exposed if they poison Joffrey themselves because they control the entire chain of events. There is minimal risk in carrying a poison from Highgarden to King's Landing, and a great deal of risk in first procuring it in the capital from a complete stranger, and transporting it via a chain of unreliable actors they have no control over, the last step of which is in front of dozens of witnesses and just minutes before the assassination. 

 

?? It's two, at most three steps: Give Sansa the poison, take poison from Sansa., poison Joffrey. QoT is on the dias with her target, she clearly DOES have the opportunity and knows it.

 

It's not just three completely unnecessary, highly risky steps instead of zero - (1) Littlefinger to Dontos, (2) Dontos to Sansa, (3) Sansa to Olenna, instead of Olenna just carrying it by herself. The fourth step - Olenna to Joffrey - is the same regardless of how she obtains it. There is no need to involve three unreliable intermediaries who have no allegiance to you whatsoever. Littlefinger and Dontos can be caught at any time, and Sansa has no idea she's involved an can behave in unpredictible fashion. Heck, she even asks to be excused from the reception - exactly the kind of unpredictable action that would throw the plan into turmoil if she'd done it earlier. 

 

I think Olenna absolutely knew, and that it was one of LF selling points to her about the plot. He would spirit Sansa out, keep her "safe", but also cast suspicion away from them onto her, and LF tosses suspicion onto Tyrion in to boot.

 

That takes even more control out of her hands, and gives a huge asset (Sansa) to an untrustworthy competitor (Littlefinger). And, once again, it's completely unnecessary - keeping Littlefinger out of the loop gives them more control, less risk, and a greater opportunity for reward.

 

No they know who she is with, not where she is, and again, both conspirators have something on the other, classic prisoners dillema, but essentially (as I think "The Tyrell's" boils down to Olenna and bit of Margery) I think the QoT much like the honey badger don't give a fuck. She's ready to pay the price.

 

But she very much gives a fuck. She didn't want to be involved in the war to begin with, and keeping Margaery safe is very much a priority for her. You know what's better than mutually assured destruction? A monopoly. Cut Littlefinger out, and they still have Tommen, but without anyone having leverage over them.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Independent George

[Jalyn]

That makes it even worse. Littlefinger is a complete stranger who just arrived to broker a marriage with Joffrey. So this complete stranger arrives full of praise for Joffrey, and then he steps aside and proposes to assassinate him? Why on earth would they take him up on it? Littlefinger himself says he has no motive to do so - so why would the Tyrells trust him? 

 

The Tyrells are less exposed if they poison Joffrey themselves because they control the entire chain of events. There is minimal risk in carrying a poison from Highgarden to King's Landing, and a great deal of risk in first procuring it in the capital from a complete stranger, and transporting it via a chain of unreliable actors they have no control over, the last step of which is in front of dozens of witnesses and just minutes before the assassination. 

 

 

It's not just three completely unnecessary, highly risky steps instead of zero - (1) Littlefinger to Dontos, (2) Dontos to Sansa, (3) Sansa to Olenna, instead of Olenna just carrying it by herself. The fourth step - Olenna to Joffrey - is the same regardless of how she obtains it. There is no need to involve three unreliable intermediaries who have no allegiance to you whatsoever. Littlefinger and Dontos can be caught at any time, and Sansa has no idea she's involved an can behave in unpredictible fashion. Heck, she even asks to be excused from the reception - exactly the kind of unpredictable action that would throw the plan into turmoil if she'd done it earlier. 

 

 

That takes even more control out of her hands, and gives a huge asset (Sansa) to an untrustworthy competitor (Littlefinger). And, once again, it's completely unnecessary - keeping Littlefinger out of the loop gives them more control, less risk, and a greater opportunity for reward.

 

 

But she very much gives a fuck. She didn't want to be involved in the war to begin with, and keeping Margaery safe is very much a priority for her. You know what's better than mutually assured destruction? A monopoly. Cut Littlefinger out, and they still have Tommen, but without anyone having leverage over them.

 

There were other pieces to the plot other than delivering the poison though. Littlefinger set up Tyrion to be the patsy by getting Joffery to hire Penny and her brother in an obvious slight that would be likely to make him blow up and become the most obvious suspect. This both keeps suspicion from them and opens the Master of Coin position. We also don't know the full details of the plot at this point - there might still things that Littlefinger offered to sweeten the deal or did to set up the circumstances that we don't know about.

 

I guess they handled losing the "Tyrion dumps the wine to try to protect his wife that he assumes is guilty" by losing the "assumes his wife is guilty" bit as well. Shame, I always liked that character bit. As much as Tyrion can be a complete ass about women, he had no issues trying to back Sansa's move as far as he could and having absolutely no issues with her having done it. It was almost reminiscent of Ned backing Catelyn taking Tyrion which I'm pretty sure is my favorite "relationship" moment in the entire series.

[ebevan91]

^^ Heh, I remember watching season 1 for the first time (before reading the books), and when Ned said "He was taken at my command.", I said "WTF NED NO HE WASN'T, YOU'RE GOING TO GET YOURSELF KILLED!"

 

And then eventually "Ser Illyn, bring me his head!" happened.

 

Sad day.

[Lady S.]

^^ Heh, I remember watching season 1 for the first time (before reading the books), and when Ned said "He was taken at my command.", I said "WTF NED NO HE WASN'T, YOU'RE GOING TO GET YOURSELF KILLED!"

Speaking of Jaime's ~character assassination, his attack on Ned is one scene that actually comes off worse in the book. On the show, after Ned reminds Jaime that killing him puts Tyrion's life at risk, Jaime decides to kill Ned's men and take him alive. On the page, Jaime leaves Ned there with no attempt to capture him and instructs his men to kill Ned's, knowing that will accomplish nothing.  There's a certain cruelty and cowardice that we don't see on the show in killing men purely for spite and not even bothering to do it himself. But the way it happened on the show was a lot cooler to watch so I completely understand that change. However, I do think it's even more clear in that scene that Jaime just wants someone, anyone to pay for Tyrion's capture and Ned choosing to take the hit for that didn't make a lick of difference. I think Jaime wasn't going to just say "oh, sorry for the misunderstanding then" and leave with no bloodshed on the show either, but I feel it's pretty damn certain he wouldn't have in the book.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Lady S.

[Haldebrandt]

The dialog made it clear that Stannis needed men, so that explains why he isn't furiously heading North.  So there is nothing wrong per se with the Iron Bank development.

The problem is that the dialog also inexplicably focused on retaking the throne rather than going North, suggesting that the former was the more immediate goal -- which contradicts last season finale.  Go figure.

Quoting an earlier post of mine.  I just watched the scene again, and Stannis had just learned of Joffrey's death.  This huge, unexpected, and positive development would have been a game changing opportunity if he had had his army.  The plan is still the Wall, he was just frustrated at a missed opportunity that he could have exploited but for Davos's "incompetence."

Edited April 30, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[Which Tyler]

Personally I always just assumed that QOT used LF as her supplier of lethal poison whilst in a hostile environment and under intense scrutiny.

Sansa was the delivery mule and potential fall-guy; and the chances are that QOT didn't have a say in the matter.

Tyrell plans for Sansa had already been ditched, so they had no further use for her.

If the Tyrells had known they intended to assassinate Joff before arriving in KL, they'd have brought their own, once there though, they need a supplier.

 

Tyrell thoughts on the Convoluted plan:

We can't get our hands on what we need here.

LF supplies us with some strangler; he's told us it will be on a hairnet worn by Sansa.

If any suspicion comes towards us, we discover that Sansa has a hairnet full of poison, and every motive in the world for wanting Joff dead.

Sounds good.

 

LF thoughts on the Convoluted plan:

OK, I'll supply the Tyrells with some strangler;

I'll implicate Sansa and save her from certain death.

No-one will believe she had the wit to do this on her own, suspicion will naturally fall on her far more intelligent husband, who also has every reason in the world to want Joff dead.

No way Cersei will let Tyrion go to the wall, so that'll be head on spike time; releasing Sansa of those pesky marriage vows.

Later on, the Lanisters will be gone from power, and no-one will care about Sansa being implicated in Joff's murder, especially as someone's already died for it; so I'll be free to marry her in a few years time.

I like the sound of Lord of the Riverlands, Lord of the Vale, Lord of the North. Next target - the Stormlands.

[Haldebrandt]

Just watched a GRRM interview where said that the Bronn/Hound confrontation of the Blackwater episode was added by D&D.  I am not at all surprised.  Although he praised the scene, it always stood out to me as totally random and an example of the kind of redundant, information-free dialog the show has too much of.  Quite vindicating to learn that it's the blatant "fan service" it always seemed.  D&D probably realized that we've never seen (or read) Bronn and the Hound interact so they arranged a meeting, but forgot to write dialog that advance the story or explores the characters.

[Haleth]

But it gave them yet another opportunity to show a naked woman.  And that's all that really matters, right?

Edited April 30, 2014 by Haleth

[Fen]

Does anyone think we still might get Jeyne Pool in some shape or form, or is that out the window now?

[Haldebrandt]

Does anyone think we still might get Jeyne Pool in some shape or form, or is that out the window now?

I'd guess so, just that she won't be Jeyne Poole?  All we need is some random girl named "Arya." But then why would Theon risk his skin (hahaha) saving some random girl?  I guess they can clear that up with two lines of dialog.

[Lady S.]

I feel bad for wanting to see Jeyne Poole, but all of the crackpot suggestions of who could replace her as Ramsay's wife would really hamper Theon's story. Leaving the marriage out entirely removes the basis for Jon's conflict with the Boltons. Jeyne Poole has been mentioned before on the show and was a nonspeaking extra in the pilot, I don't think not having her in King's Landing really changes things. If she's been in the North the whole time, they just need to find a way to introduce her to the plot.

 

Personally I always just assumed that QOT used LF as her supplier of lethal poison whilst in a hostile environment and under intense scrutiny.

Availability of the poison is a good point. Tyrion was accused of stealing it from Pycelle's stores, not buying it at ye olde murder supply shoppe. The person we saw previously use this poison was Maester Cressen. And as for the tears of Lys, that turned out to be another murder arranged by Littlefinger.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Lady S.

[blixie]

 

Tyrion was accused of stealing it from Pycelle's stores

 

Right and Pycelle doesn't have the Strangler in his stores anyway, he's a joke he couldn't identify either Joffrey's poison or The Mountain's.

[John Potts]

blixie Pycelle doesn't have the Strangler in his stores anyway, he's a joke he couldn't identify either Joffrey's poison or The Mountain's.

 

Given that Pycelle stays alive by practicing Obfuscating Senility, he's unlikely to pipe up and admit that he totally should be considered a suspect when that's likely to mean torture and death.

[Fen]

I feel bad for wanting to see Jeyne Poole, but all of the crackpot suggestions of who could replace her as Ramsay's wife would really hamper Theon's story. Leaving the marriage out entirely removes the basis for Jon's conflict with the Boltons.

 

I'm really interested to see how the show will deal with this.  I'm assuming Jon's conflict with the Boltons might now come from discovering that they sent Locke to try to find Bran and Rickon - but Jeyne's absence would have an impact on Theon's arc.

 

I wish the show would show some more of the details of Dany's story.  It's not remotely apparent that there have been huge issues in keeping her band of followers fed and watered.  Or that Meereen was so fearful of her approach that they adopted a scorched earth approach around the city, and deliberately used the markers to dissuade her.

[Wilowy]

I wish the show would show some more of the details of Dany's story.  It's not remotely apparent that there have been huge issues in keeping her band of followers fed and watered.  Or that Meereen was so fearful of her approach that they adopted a scorched earth approach around the city, and deliberately used the markers to dissuade her.

 

THANK YOU! That's why, in some of the threads where people are wishing Dany would get "taken down a peg or two", I'm like - "BUT NO! You have no idea what this woman has been through! What she goes through every single day and still manages to keep her strong sense of right! She's a hero!"

[Haldebrandt]

I know the show is as popular as ever, but I fear the high ratings won't survive the next season or two, and the introduction of ever more characters.  (Val & Co, more Greyjoys, more Dornish, and worst of all, the insufferable Meereen crowd).

 

Looking back at the unsullied thread at TWOP, it's amazing how each episode in the second half of S1 significantly advanced the story compared to later seasons.  There has never been another stretch like 6-episode run from the Wolf and the Lion to Fire and Blood.  Nowadays we are lucky to get two excellent episodes in a row like And Now His Watch Is Ended and Kissed by Fire, or Two Swords (by far the best premiere since the pilot) and The Lion and the Rose.

 

I wish D&D would just have the balls to dramatically par down AFfC & ADwD to a single season (VERY doable) and then take a hiatus for a year or two until the next book.

[ElizaD]

I wish D&D would just have the balls to dramatically par down AFfC & ADwD to a single season (VERY doable) and then take a hiatus for a year or two until the next book.

 

They can't take a hiatus because that would mean losing the huge cast and crew to other jobs and never finishing the series (IIRC, it's what killed Rome and Deadwood reunions; Spartacus did one prequel season with the same cast, crew and sets to give the lead actor a chance to recover from cancer but when his cancer returned they had to recast because they couldn't wait any longer, and that was a much smaller production). Even if HBO considered it, there's no guarantee that GRRM would keep whatever TWOW deadline they originally agreed to (and they'd still have to finish without ADOS). But 7 seasons of GOT, which is what the showrunners are talking about now, would mean finishing the rest of AFFC/ADWD in S5; if they later decide on 8 seasons, it's easier to stretch out the presumably eventful ending based on GRRM's outline than to spend season 5 and half of 6 on ADWD and then face having to finish it all in 1 1/2 seasons if something happens that means they can't go beyond 7 after all.

[Fen]

 

I know the show is as popular as ever, but I fear the high ratings won't survive the next season or two, and the introduction of ever more characters.  (Val & Co, more Greyjoys, more Dornish, and worst of all, the insufferable Meereen crowd).

 

I think we'll see them heavily employing their tactic of 'collapsing' two characters into one whenever possible (like Edric and Gendry).  Anything not fully relevant to the 'main' plots of central characters will probably be excised, too. 

 

I was reading over the first half of A Storm of Swords recently, and you can really see this at play in how they edited Arya's story after Harrenhall, to the point where she is kidnapped by the Hound.  Couple of chapters of simply wandering with Hot Pie and Gendry?  Cut.  About two-thirds of the stuff with the Brotherhood (Lady Smallwood, etc)?  Cut.  It's a good example of how you can be pretty ruthless but still get much of the story across.

[Mr. Simpatico]

I feel bad for wanting to see Jeyne Poole, but all of the crackpot suggestions of who could replace her as Ramsay's wife would really hamper Theon's story. Leaving the marriage out entirely removes the basis for Jon's conflict with the Boltons. Jeyne Poole has been mentioned before on the show and was a nonspeaking extra in the pilot, I don't think not having her in King's Landing really changes things. If she's been in the North the whole time, they just need to find a way to introduce her to the plot.

 

I don't think it would be terribly hard to introduce the Jeyne Poole subplot even at this late date. Basically she's someone who a) grew up on Winterfell and knew the Starks and Theon and b) who the Boltons are trying to pass off as "Arya" to the world to give them some legitimacy and c) this rouses the anger of the North and of Jon when he hears about it and d) it gives Theon a chance to redeem himself by saving herself from Ramsay. Given the number of non-canon characters the show has introduced (Ros?), Jeyne Poole (might as well keep the name since they didn't use Jeyne Westerling) is not a difficult sell to viewers.

[Holmbo]

Wow seems like the show are giving us lots of confirmations of book speculations. The white walker does turn the babies into something like them. The mines in casterly rock are dry.
I wonder what we'll get next. What would you guys want to know if you could choose?

[Fable]

When talking to Margaery, Cersei referenced Joffrey as her first born, but back in the first episode she told Cat about a son she had with Robert who had died.  I don't think it was ever addressed in the book, but were we supposed to assume that was a lie or the truth?   I think that would be a hard to lie to cover up when you consider that the heir apparent died.  It seems like that would be common knowledge.

[GreyBunny]

Good question.  Either a lie or a continuity error.  In the book when Robert got her pregnant she had an abortion.

[Wilowy]

I always thought it was a lie she told to make Cat soften towards her some. Yes, whenever she'd get pregnant by Robert she'd drink the moon tea. 

[Lady S.]

When talking to Margaery, Cersei referenced Joffrey as her first born, but back in the first episode she told Cat about a son she had with Robert who had died.  I don't think it was ever addressed in the book, but were we supposed to assume that was a lie or the truth?   I think that would be a hard to lie to cover up when you consider that the heir apparent died.  It seems like that would be common knowledge.

Yeah, but it's also weird that the Starks never even heard about Robert's heir apparent, when that would be pretty big news. I think it was meant to the truth in s1 because Cersei mentions their dead first boy in her scene with Robert, and even Robert shouldn't be that out of it to not know how many sons he had with Cersei. But I also think that was one of the plotpoints abandoned in s2 (like Frey giving Robb his army as well as letting him cross the bridge or Alliser Thorne going to King's Landing), when Joffrey was aged to 17 the timeline became pretty tight to have him and baby #1 before him. So, yeah, continuity error.

 

It's sounding like we may get adventures in Dorne next year after all, with the ironic foreshadowing line about little girls not being hurt there. I wonder if the boat will be made to play into that or if was just another humanize Cersei through maternal feeling moment.

[Fable]

I always thought it was a lie she told to make Cat soften towards her some. Yes, whenever she'd get pregnant by Robert she'd drink the moon tea.

 

 

That was my initial interpretation, but I had to question it because it seems to me that a queen's pregnancy would be a big deal and the death of a crown prince would attract some attention. 

[GreyBunny]

I'm wanking it as infant mortality being so high, even among royals, that a baby isn't officially presented until it had lived for a little while and has a good chance of thriving.  If it dies right after being born, it "doesn't count" (to put it a little harshly).    

Notice they say "name day" instead of "birthday" when marking the passage of time.  I'm guessing the name day is a matter of days or perhaps weeks after they're born.  The wildlings wait two years.

 

ETA:  I was reading a bit of history of my city and even in the 1800's women were advised not to bond too closely with their children for the first four years because infant and young child death rates were so high.  In my own family one of my direct ancestors had eleven children and only four made it to adulthood.

Edited May 6, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Joystickenvy]

I might be mixing it up with an entirely different story, but I thought I remembered getting the distinct impression that we were supposed to think the story was a lie because she talked about what a sickly pitiful little thing it was and then the book goes on about how robust all Roberts bastard kids were. Though the thought occurs that it might have been born and not died of natural causes, given Cersei's determination to not have Robert's kids.

However, I'm not sure at all any of that actually happened. Guess I need to re-read one of these days.

[Holmbo]

This was my problem with the books! Tyrion murders his girlfriend, a character I like, and then is off whining about some girl who's not a character in the books whom he was married to for two weeks many years ago. He's like "oh, Tysha, Tysha," and I'm all "The hell with Tysha, what about Shae, you asshole? Die!" and I lost all sympathy for him. I really, really hope they don't go with that scene the same way on the TV show, because I felt like it was a major misstep in the books. GRRM has said he wants to make Tyrion a morally neutral character as opposed to a "goodguy" or "badguy," but killing Shae just made him irredeemably bad. It's the whole horrible "disposable sex worker" thing, I guess. I stopped watching True Blood after they had Bill procure a stripper to kill, I think it was partway into the 3rd season. I had read the books, and the book character would never do anything like that. And the show tried to make it "okay" by having him determine that she was just a sex worker, with no family. In other words, not a real person with value. But sex workers are people too, and killing one is no less wrong than killing a bank teller or social worker or UPS delivery guy. And my hatred for the character I'm supposed to forgive only increases the more the show tries to tell me the victim was worthless. Shae has no power and her life is in danger. What the hell is she supposed to do, be bravely tortured to death defending her man? F*** that. And f*** book Tyrion too. The show has a chance to do better.  

Interesting take. I only watched a small part of true blood but that doesn't sound good.

With Shae I don't think anyone sees what Tyrion did was justified. She revealed that she didn't care about him one bit. And why should she? She had no reason to be loyal to him.

But I don't think Tyrion killed her because he thought less of her. She hurt him and he was mentally unstable from the trial and also it does seem like he was suffering from a depression since the battle. Not defending just stating his motives as they seemed to me.

I want Tyrion to kill Shae in the show because it would be totally unexpected.

But on the other hand I'm not sure the show could make it seem believable. Show Tyrion would have to slide pretty low in just a few episodes for it to work. Killing Tywin, no problem to get him to there. But Shae, I don't know. I bet the show will have him do it though. They try to keep all the chocking moments even if the don't have the context to back it up. Like with the sept sex.

 

[Fable]

I want Tyrion to kill Shae in the show because it would be totally unexpected.

But on the other hand I'm not sure the show could make it seem believable. Show Tyrion would have to slide pretty low in just a few episodes for it to work. Killing Tywin, no problem to get him to there. But Shae, I don't know. I bet the show will have him do it though. They try to keep all the chocking moments even if the don't have the context to back it up. Like with the sept sex.

 

 

I truly hope he doesn't, although I'm afraid he will, if only for the emotional impact.  I didn't like it in the book, and I would really dislike it on the show.  At least in the books it was somewhat understandable, but the show has painted a completely different picture of Shae, and there is no background to support Tyrion killing her.  Killing Shae would be completely out of character for him given what we have seen of him and the nature of their relationship on the show so far, and I will be very disappointed if it comes to that.

[mac123x]

I can see this as the show's modification of the Shae / Tysha bit: Shae has been captured by Cercei / Tywin off-screen, and is forced to testify against Tyrion. (She'll probably show signs of having been beaten, because this show likes it's violence against women). The show follows the book plot all the way through Tyrion sneaking into Tywin's room. the subsequent confrontation involves a lot of tense conversation about Shae, ending with Tyrion asking what happened to her.

"She's no longer in Kings Landing"

"Where did she go?"

"Where ever whores go" - whang! crossbow bolt to the bowels.

That's a little more plausible then Tyrion pining over a girl he knew for a couple of weeks two decades ago.

Edited May 6, 2014 by mac123x

[KarlieSchaefer]

I found this article that covers some of the changes from the book to TV

http://www.infobarrel.com/Game_of_Thrones_Season_4_Book_to_Screen_Changes

[Lady S.]

Guys, they added two lines in s3 about Tysha for no real reason. That reveal from Jaime will definitely play into Tywin's death, and with the extra building up of Jaime/Tyrion that rift is just waiting to come in the finale.

And then there's this shot from one of the s4 promos, which was not what happened in Tyrion/Shae's scenes so far, meaning it's from a later ep.

I'm inclined to believe Dinklage does mean the double murder when he keeps comparing s4 Tyrion to Walter White in interviews. It's happening.

[Haldebrandt]

If the following is out of bounds for this forum, then obviously the mods will delete it (with my sincerest apologies). Otherwise, here goes:

 

Like many, Unsullied reactions anywhere are a great part of the pleasure  I get from watching the show.  Over at westeros.org, there is a thread dedicated to commenting on Unsullied threads (namely, TWOP/PTV, but also NeoGaf): http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/108373-tvbook-spoilers-ptv-unsullied-thread-part-8/  . It's interesting because it shows the die-hard fans' reactions to the Unsullied's reactions... And it's also evidence of how much intimate knowledge of the books blinds many fans to the different demands and dynamics of a TV show.  D&D have done a lot of things wrong (and many more right), but also many book fanatics get unreasonably frustrated at Unsullied perceptions, failing to recognize that those perceptions are entirely reasonable in the context of the show.

 

Lately, there's been this idea that the NeoGaf Unsullied thread is a lot more fun that the PTV Unsullied thread because the former remains much more enthusiastic about the show, whereas the latter is "obsessed" with Rapegate and Cersei's character.  I am fascinated by this line of discussion because it misses one glaring (and to me, obvious) element:  NeoGaf is a video game site, geared toward the "hardcore gamers, enthusiast press, and video game industry developers and publishers".  Its core audience is significantly younger and more male than the PTV Unsullied (e.g., the routine, casual and adolescent sexism that pervades the place). They are more enthusiastic about violence and forgiving of D&D's baser instincts.  In contrast, the PTV Unsullied, many of whom have spent years dissecting TV shows at TWOP, are far more sophisticated viewers, and are much better at digging into characters and catching plot holes.  I much prefer the latter (I am dude but my teenage and college years are well behind me), but it seems the hardcore ASOIAF fandom prefers the former.

 

ETA: Or they just want approval and will favor anyone who gives it.  That's one of the more curious aspects of those who follow the Unsullied:  they want the Unsullied to arrive at the same conclusions as seasoned Bookwalkers.  Any departure from this is considered very disappointing (e.g., when the overwhelming majority of Unsullied thought that Cersei or Tywin were behind Joff's murder).

Edited May 7, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[joliefaire]

^  I'd like to respond.  I am the one who started the TWoP Unsullied thread at Westeros back in season one.  (My username is different at Westeros).  And I 'policed' that thread day in, day out, for years.  It was a new, meta concept, one site following and reporting on the posts of another site, and it took time to settle.  At first, random Westeros members would view the TWoP Unsullied and then come back to the Westeros thread and start 'outing' obvious bookwalkers, by name.  The mods there closed the thread a couple of times, and rightfully so.  I negotiated with them to establish rules and guidelines for the thread, and over time, regular viewers of the thread have stepped forward to chastise and report anyone who violates those rules.  It's been a learning process.

 

One thing to keep in mind, well, two things actually, re the recent comments about the NeoGAF unsullied vs. the TWoP/PTV Unsullied.  Its not an either-or situation.  Many posters at Westeros are also young male fantasy fans, just like those at NeoGAF.  I know some of the young, male Westeros users who frequent that thread--they are enthusiastic college students, from France, from Australia, Germany, Jamaica, Brazil, etc.  So, of course, they lean more toward the NeoGAF type of input.  My guess is, too, though I don't know it for a fact, that language may be an issue in some cases.  For those to whom English is a second, or third, language, its easier to read and understand the short surface comments at NeoGAF than it is to understand the sometimes lengthy, in-depth analyses at PTV.  But many of us (ahem) older regulars in that thread understand perfectly the difference between the NeoGAF commenters and the TWoP/PTV Unsullied who dissect and analyze and ponder every nuance in the show to the nth degree.  Its what we love about the TWoP/PTV Unsullied and its why we've followed them for years and continue to follow and enjoy their input.

 

GoT fans cover a wide spectrum, from teens to oldies like me and others.  And they join in with their opinions from around the world, from many different societies and cultures.  There's room for all, I think.  Again, its not either-or.  Its both.

Edited May 8, 2014 by joliefaire

[Holmbo]

Guys, they added two lines in s3 about Tysha for no real reason. That reveal from Jaime will definitely play into Tywin's death, and with the extra building up of Jaime/Tyrion that rift is just waiting to come in the finale.

 

I'm inclined to believe Dinklage does mean the double murder when he keeps comparing s4 Tyrion to Walter White in interviews. It's happening.

I suppose so. I'm a bit torn. I like that it's not what people expect to happen. Also I enjoy how much of a hypocrite it shows Tywin to be that Shae is in his bed. A lot of people like him in the show and I understand why. He is entertaining to watch but on the same time I think he is as despicable as Walder Frey and really deserves a humiliating death. I hope they keep that part with his corpse stinking too.

 

On the other hand I feel that if the show just writes it as "Shae humiliated Tyrion so he kills her" they are missing the point. This is not why he does it in the book IMO. He does it because his hurt by her complete betrayal (in his eyes) and the revelation that she never cared about him the slightest. Plus just all the other stuff that had nothing to do with Shae but that made him pretty unhinged at this point in the story.

Show Tyrion will have no reason to think that Shae didn't have genuine feelings for him. If she humiliates him he'll know that she does it as revenge for him humiliating her in ep 2. Plus of course due to death threats from Cersei.

Show Tyrion is also much more balanced overall.

Also I can not see how it all would work practically. Is Shae just gonna lay there? The more I think about the less I feel that it would work. But anyways I agree it will happen (unless this is a giant ruse to trick book readers).

If anything it will be interesting to see how they set it up. How does show Shae end up in Tywin's room anyway?

Edited May 7, 2014 by Holmbo

[Haldebrandt]

Oberyn's volunteering to fight for Tyrion was a great moment in the book, because I never saw it coming.  But viewers might predict that Oberyn would volunteer when Cersei names the Mountain as the Crown's champion, somewhat ruining the surprise.  So here is a proposed alternative: have Oberyn & Tyrion hatch the plot.

 

Before Cersei names the Mountain, or before even Tyrion asks for trial by combat, Oberyn tells him that he will fight for him on one condition: the opponent must be the Mountain.  This preserves the surprise and even enhances Oberyn as a player of the game.  Then Tyrion makes it happen by asking Jaime to suggest it to Cersei.

 

Just a thought...

Edited May 7, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[Haleth]

I dunno.  I like how utterly unpredictable Oberyn is.