Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[benteen]

They could cut back on Quentyn at least...not waste all that time with his journey.

[Oscirus]

Book!Jaime, for that matter, at least thought it could be true.  That's one of the big differences between the book and the show -- in the show, none of the major characters apart from Cersei believe Tyrion actually did it; but in the books, the frame-job is much more widely-accepted.

 

 

 

I saw it in a different way. We know Margery at least thought he was capable, Jamie appeared to be in doubt about Tyrion's guilt until he talked to Tyrion. I also have a hard time believing that Tywin would want regicide attached to his name unless he thought that it might be true.

 

I think that the downfall of the Tyrells is going to be tied to the purple wedding ( it's always bad to make emotional decisions on this show) for the following reasons:

a) Even under the best circumstances, they're removing the two people that the Lannisters hated.  With Tyrion and Sansa gone, who else were the Lannisters going to turn their hatred on?

b) Show Margery at least had some control over Joffrey and while she might not have been able to control all of his insanity, I do believe that she would've been  able to at least keep him tolerable. Joffrey was a loose cannon that was willing to turn on his family if they didn't recognize his power. It wouldn't have been a bad thing to have him in the Tyrell back pocket. Tommen on the other hand, is much more susceptible to his family's suggestions.

c) At best, you put Dorne one step away from the iron throne meaning the Tyrells get shutout. At worst, you cause another war over the throne. Which benefits nobody at King's landing.

 

 

[Winnief]

They won't bother with Qwentyn-even if they do keep the failed courtship of Dany ending in a roasting, it will be Trystane.  And really I don't know if they even need that; perfectly plausible for some bad guys in Mereen to foolishly make a move on Dany's dragons too, or to have a good guy release them if things go sour in the city. That way we are spared the spectacle of a member of house Martell being one for the Darwin awards.

 

 

Take away Quentyn and Aegon though and we we're basically down to the Arianne tries to crown Myrcella and Myrcella's romance with Trystane with some sort of Jaime interlude to pad things out..

Unless of course the Sand Snakes are going to KL this season on Doran's request to put things in motion to hurt the Lannisters.  

 

 

The main reason I want them to keep Aegon is for Varys. I'll be disappointed if show!Varys has been all about Dany all this time because I don't feel they've done much to indicate or set that up. Not in an obvious way but surely at least bookreaders should have picked up on something. Why would Varys harp on the dragons during a small council meeting so that Tywin Lannister might actually do something about them? What if Varys's warnings had lead to Tywin hiring a Faceless Man?

 

To play devil's advocate, it could be that Varys was canny enough to figure that reports would reach Tywin sooner or later anyway, and it would look awfully suspicious that his spymaster never mentioned anything to him.  Varys could have been betting that Twyin Lannister having little use or belief in the metaphysical wouldn't pay much heed to 'curiosities on the far side of the world.' Even in the event he did, Tywin would be going through Varys for any measures so Varys could head him off.  

 

I think ViewersOnly might be a bit disappointed actually to hear Varys was working for an unknown quantity like Aegon this whole time especially since the kid ain't that impressive and his royal heritage is disputable.  Why people will ask themselves is Varys backing this likely imposter when there's a bonafide Targaryen princess out there who's acquired her own army of badass warriors AND has three dragons?!?  It would just seem dumb.  And Varys is traveling with Tyrion-will it be a matter of Varys introducing Tyrion to Aegon, and then Tyrion saying, "Sorry but you can stay with him and JonCon-I'm going off to meet Daenerys.  Oh by the way, I convinced the boy to try to invade Westeros on his own without his aunt, her army, or her dragons."  I just don't see that working.  

 

Moreover, speculation about Aegon kinda steals Jon's thunder too.  "Wow a lost Targaryen heir...fooled you!  He's a fake.  But look here's another lost Targaryen heir and this one is for real we swear!"  They may have been leaving it open in the first season to include Aegon, but I think since then they've decided to screw it.  They certainly haven't done any set up for the possibility of a baby switch back in the day or references to JonCon etc.  The only thing they've mentioned is the Golden Company; and that can easily be used for something else like say Dany deciding she needs more forces to invade, or Stannis or the Iron Bank hiring them.

[benteen]

Yeah, the Lannisters were too busy destroying themselves.  That infighting was brutal and a lot of it was because of Tywin and Cersei's irrational hatred for Tyrion.

Edited July 13, 2014 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

I really can't see them including Quentyn. Even while reading ADwD  I thought, "Well that was all completely pointless!" (once he died, that is). Given the cuts they've already made, I can't see him making it to screen.

 

 

He really only needs three scenes. I don't see how it's a waste of time. We could have a scene of him in the throne room explaining his purpose and the deal between the two families. Should take all of five, six minutes tops. He gets rejected, he's present during the scene where Dany rides Drogon, and then he's roasted for trying to claim a dragon for himself. It gives us a comparison to see that dragon taming isn't something that anyone can do, even if they do have Targaryen/Valyrian blood, it makes Dany riding Drogon more impressive, it provides conflict with Dorne who would have been her ally, and it causes some immediate chaos in Meereen. I'm just not seeing the drawbacks to including this character. Nor do I think it makes any sense whatsoever to blend his character in with Trystane's. 

 

What would be the point in creating a character to fill the function of Quentyn when we could just use Quentyn? We don't have to spend a lot of time on him to make it happen. 

 

Yeah, the Lannister were too busy destroying themselves.  That infighting was brutal and a lot of it was because of Tywin and Cersei's irrational hatred for Tyrion.

 

 

Seriously. It wasn't even really all about Tyrion although of course he factored in. So frustrtating that they learned positively nothing from the mistakes of the infighting of House Baratheon. 

Edited July 12, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Holmbo]

The main reason I want them to keep Aegon is for Varys. I'll be disappointed if show!Varys has been all about Dany all this time because I don't feel they've done much to indicate or set that up. Not in an obvious way but surely at least bookreaders should have picked up on something. Why would Varys harp on the dragons during a small council meeting so that Tywin Lannister might actually do something about them? What if Varys's warnings had lead to Tywin hiring a Faceless Man? I just haven't got the vibe that Varys has been helping Dany all this time as he supposedly has been for Aegon. Dany is a wildcard that nobody initially banked on not even Jorah or Illyrio. For Varys to have secretly been all about her all this time just doesn't work for me after four season of without so much as a hint.

That's what I feel too. The great thing with having a series with a somewhat decided ending (unlike most shows who make it up as they go along) is that they can do build ups that actually pay of. For Varys to just have a read candidate for the throne tucked away, I think that's a reveal in the level with the build up his been getting.

I think the inclusion of Aegon depends on what role he's supposed to play in the story. We don't know at this point. I think most people assume he's not gonna be important in the end game since he's introduced so late in the story and is not tied to any of the other main characters. If he has an interesting enough part to play in the story I think they show will include him. If not then they'll probably cut him and pretend that Varys was somehow supporting Dany all this time.

[ElizaD]

The rumored casting of Keisha Castle-Hughes (even if she hasn't done much after Whale Rider, she's still an Oscar nominee) as a Sand Snake and Indira Varma's daughter really makes me consider the possibility that Aegon has been cut, which has led to Arianne being cut because her future POV chapters will be about him, and the Myrcella plot has been given to the Snakes who will help cause an even bigger Lannister/Tyrell implosion in TWOW.

[Oscirus]

If not then they'll probably cut him and pretend that Varys was somehow supporting Dany all this time.

 

 

 

I doubt it since Varys wanted to assasinate her in season one and even gave Jorah the order.  There's also the fact that Varys  has been warning everybody who listens against Dany and her dragons. They'd have a lot of explaining to do.

 

 

I wonder if Tyrion will be with  Varys when they run into Jorah and at what point Varys heads back.

 

Seriously. It wasn't even really all about Tyrion although of course he factored in. So frustrtating that they learned positively nothing from the mistakes of the infighting of House Barathe

If Tywin wasn't such a megalomaniac, he would have known that family or no family,  there were certain lines that his kids wouldn't cross ( Jamie not breaking his vows, Cersei not leaving her kids, Tyrion not raping a little girl). The fact that he whiffed on all three kids is just tragic.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Oscirus

[Winnief]

 

I doubt it since Varys wanted to assasinate her in season one and even gave Jorah the order.

 

But Jorah stopped the assassination remember?!?  He caught on right away to what the wine seller was up to-almost like he'd been warned in advance.  Hmmm.  And how exactly did Barristan Selmy get all the way from KL to Essos to find Dany and join up with her for that matter?!?

 

Like I said, Varys could have figured that word of the dragons was bound to leak anyway, and it would look a tad suspicious he never said anything about it-but he may have gambled that the Lannister's being the Lannister's would ignore the issue.  (With the exception of Tyrion but of course Tyrion's had more immediate problems to deal with.) 

[Hecate7]

Good point. It could be that Varys was employing a bit of reverse psychology re: the dragons. And it's quite likely he either warned Jorah, or at least described the scene to him.

[Winnief]

 

Good point. It could be that Varys was employing a bit of reverse psychology re: the dragons. And it's quite likely he either warned Jorah, or at least described the scene to him.

 

Precisely.  Varys is clever enough to want to find ways to assist Dany, while outwardly seeming like he's serving the Lannister's as devotedly as ever.  So he technically follows Robert's instructions but makes sure the attempt is foiled.  And really if Varys of all people had truly meant for Dany to die in the Dothraki sea don't you think it would have happened?!?  I mean he can get a sorcerer from Lys transported to the Red Keep in a box with his lips and hands bound so he can't do spells,  but Varys couldn't arrange a  competent precision assassination for one little Khaleesi?!? In fact, all the failed killing did was convince Kal Drogo it was a good idea to invade the Seven Kingdoms after all. Sure on Tywin's instructions word is sent to Mereen so Jorah is separated from Dany but Ser Jorah is ultimately expendable.  And Jorah's only been sent away-he ain't dead and Varys can use him again if he has to.  And curious that Varys proves that his birds can get into Mereen yet he doesn't suggest another attempt at assassination either of Dany or her lieutenants.  

 

Now, Varys was quite sincere in helping Tyrion defend the city against Stannis Baratheon, but again that's not inconsistent with Varys ultimately siding with Dany.  Varys  hates magic, and doesn't want Mel near the Red Keep and at the same time he might have assumed it would be easier to effectively undermine the Lannister's and pave the way for Dany to invade then it would be against King Stannis.  After all, the Lannister's are so good at tearing each other apart.  

[jeansheridan]

I prefer the show interactions in general.  The plotline is tighter.  I hate the lardiness of the books.  But that said, this was not Tyrion' s best season when it should have been great.  The failure to have a Lannister family dinner kills me.  Tyrion on trial was horrible.  Tyrion at the wedding wasn't angry or drunk enough.  And the scene with Tywin wasn't great.  Peter had an off season alas.  Brienne & the Hound & Davos had a great season.  It might be a problem when side characters are more interesting than the leads.  Everyone can die but if Brienne, Pod, the Hound, Davos, three wolves & three dragons make it I am good.  

 

Just realized there are only three official wolves alive.  Arya' s is rogue like her.

WinnieF I love your take of Varys as a badass.  He hasn't made that many errors.  He knew Tywin would sack the City.  He knew Tyrion could save it.  Did he know Joffrey would die?  I don't think so.

[SeanC]

But Jorah stopped the assassination remember?!?  He caught on right away to what the wine seller was up to-almost like he'd been warned in advance.  Hmmm.

He wasn't warned in advance.  We see Jorah in the market.  He's given his pardon, and then the kid leaves; from that, he guesses what's going to happen.

 

There's no way Varys could have predicted that.  It would hinge entirely on Jorah's character development, which Varys would have no way of observing.

[patchwork]

Perhaps the poison would have been enough to make her ill and lose the baby but not enough to kill Dany herself.

It would keep Varys' chess piece - in this case Dany- on the board but maintain his usefulness to Robert who only sent assassins after he heard about her pregnancy. 

[Oscirus]

And how exactly did Barristan Selmy get all the way from KL to Essos to find Dany and join up with her for that matter?!?

 

I don't think it would be that hard for a soldier like Selmy to track a woman with a dothraki army and dragons.

Varys could have figured that word of the dragons was bound to leak anyway, and it would look a tad suspicious he never said anything about it-but he may have gambled that the Lannister's being the Lannister's would ignore the issue.

 

That's a pretty interesting theory and one I'm not outright dismissing. However there are a few things that nag at me:

a) Varys seemed to be the person that was working the hardest to convince Ned that Dany needed to be killed. Maybe that was a cover. However:

b) The kill order had to go through Varys since he was the only person with connections to that part of the world. Why wouldn't he just not give the order and say that the assassination attempt failed?

c) Finally, the question that keeps coming back to me is why would he repeatedly warn everybody? I get Robert because he was the king, and even Tywin who was also a pretty powerful man, but why Tyrion? As awesome as he was as the hand of the king, at that point in the story, nobody of importance was taking Tyrion seriously. To me it just came across as Varys was trying to get somebody to take this threat seriously.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I like the change from the book of having Varys being a willing participant in Tyrion's escape and bringing him along for Tyrion's journey. That will likely give a laser like focus to the story and get rid of all the whorehouse stuff.  I do wonder if Varys will lead Tyrion to Jorah or if they just happen to run into him by mistake.

 

 

[Avaleigh]

Perhaps the poison would have been enough to make her ill and lose the baby but not enough to kill Dany herself.

It would keep Varys' chess piece - in this case Dany- on the board but maintain his usefulness to Robert who only sent assassins after he heard about her pregnancy.

 

 

I feel like this might be reaching a little bit only because there are so many things that have the potential to go wrong in a scenario like that. I think the poison was supposed to have been fatal. If he's backing Dany all of this time, why wouldn't he want her to have the baby? Why be in favor of the alliance with the Dothraki and Khal Drogo in the first place if he's against any children from the union? What if it did cause Dany to lose the baby but then she also accidentally ends up in Lysa Arryn territory? I just can't see Varys being okay with putting Dany at risk in so many ways if he's always supposed to have been her main supporter in Westeros. 

 

Regarding the dragons--

Why wouldn't Varys at least downplay it all? Varys should have been the one reminding the small council that they're only "baby dragons" as Cersei did, but no, he reminds them that this is real and that the dragons are growing larger every year.

 

Then there are Varys's issues with magic which haven't really been referenced much (at all?) on the show and that's another reason why I'm hesitant to believe that he's been backing Dany all of this time. 

 

He wasn't warned in advance.  We see Jorah in the market.  He's given his pardon, and then the kid leaves; from that, he guesses what's going to happen.

There's no way Varys could have predicted that.  It would hinge entirely on Jorah's character development, which Varys would have no way of observing.

 

 

IA. I don't see how Varys would have known for sure that Jorah would thwart the assassination attempt. He hardly knows Jorah, that'd be one hell of a gamble to make. I just can't see that happening if Dany has supposedly been his ace in the hole this entire time. Why would he risk that?

[Skeeter22]

I  think Varys, like many other political players, has simply been backing the wrong horse. He's brilliant, but like everyone else, he isn't infallible. Aegon will probably be his downfall, just like Sansa will be Littlefinger's. I think the idea that Varys is Dany's double secret supporter is kind of like the theory that Littlefinger was behind Bran's failed assassination. It's taking the idea that Littlefinger and Varys are behind everything a little too far.

 

The show might have Varys support Dany, because I think they've softened him a bit. Littlefinger is the mustache twirling villain, and Varys is his more reasonable counterpart. It would make sense for Varys to side with one of the heroes.

[Winnief]

I agree that having Varys have been supporting Dany all along rather than Aegon would be a stretch for the writing team-thing is I think they might prefer that at this point to including Aegon and JonCon at this point.  Even with the high death rate, the show's bursting at the seams at this point in terms of casting.  There's a limit to how many new characters they want to include and again Aegon and JonCon might be seen as stealing Dany's thunder.  I think they might prefer to bite the bullet on plot holes, (or just say that Varys came to switch loyalties but was always playing a double game hence his talk with Magister Illyrio,) then bring in that subplot.

[benteen]

I prefer the show interactions in general.  The plotline is tighter.  I hate the lardiness of the books.  But that said, this was not Tyrion' s best season when it should have been great.  The failure to have a Lannister family dinner kills me.  Tyrion on trial was horrible.  Tyrion at the wedding wasn't angry or drunk enough.  And the scene with Tywin wasn't great.  Peter had an off season alas.  Brienne & the Hound & Davos had a great season.  It might be a problem when side characters are more interesting than the leads.  Everyone can die but if Brienne, Pod, the Hound, Davos, three wolves & three dragons make it I am good.  

 

Just realized there are only three official wolves alive.  Arya' s is rogue like her.

WinnieF I love your take of Varys as a badass.  He hasn't made that many errors.  He knew Tywin would sack the City.  He knew Tyrion could save it.  Did he know Joffrey would die?  I don't think so.

 

Great bit about not having a Lannister family reunion.  That was such a missed opportunity.  Having Brienne in King's Landing early didn't do much favors either.

 

When I think about missed opportunities, I think about the fact that the writers never had a scene with Tyrion sitting on the Iron Throne.  This stunned me, especially with the way D and D love the character.  He has a scene where he sits on the Iron Throne in the book but the subject matter discussed (Robb's peace term and more men for the Night's Watch) was moved to a session of The Small Council.  They had ONE chance to have Tyrion on the Iron Throne (though I won't be surprised if he gets close to it again by the end of this story) and they didn't do it.  A completely missed opportunity.

[jeansheridan]

Queen Elizabeth passed too!  Sitting on the throne.  Can't quote easily from my kindle.

[Avaleigh]

Benteen, regarding your point about Tyrion never being on the throne---it's especially odd when I think about the season 1 promos of the show where we had IIRC shots of Ned, Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei, and others on the throne.

I don't think she is ever on the throne in the books (apart from that nightmare she has where she imagines the throne to be eating her) but it'll be interesting to see if she ever sits on the throne in the show during her short reign as Tommen's Regent. Will all of her foolish decisions be limited to scenes with the small council and select family members or are we also going to see her getting crazy on people in public in the throne room?

[Oscirus]

I think Tyrion not being on the throne yet is basically a case of delayed gratification.

 

but it'll be interesting to see if she ever sits on the throne in the show during her short reign as Tommen's Regent.

 

I assume she  would (probably not as regent though) since that scene of her with Tommen on the throne at the end of Blackwater screamed foreshadowing as to Tommen's fate.

[Pete Martell]

On the show, I feel like we're supposed to think Tyrion doesn't want the Throne or anything attached to it. Even in season 2 when he was at his most powerful, it seemed like it was spun as being more about helping the people/wanting to be good at his job than being about power.

 

The main problem with Tyrion's material this season is that Tyrion on the show is not an ambiguous character. As a result when you adapt ambiguous material to being black and white, it loses something. By and large I thought the Lannisters just weren't that well written this season. Everything was very choppy and uneven. 

Edited July 15, 2014 by Pete Martell

[jeansheridan]

I think Jaime had a decent season aside from the rape.  I liked seeing him negotiate for Tyrion' s life and interact with Bronn & Brienne.  And Tyrion.  Jaime is usually gold in most scenes.

 

The PW was a mess.  They need a new director.  Alan Taylor come back!

Edited July 16, 2014 by jeansheridan

[DigitalCount]

Wow, really? I thought the PW was fine, with incredible tension. I haven't read Storm in a while though, so that could be influencing my take.

[benteen]

Yeah, I thought the PW episode was great, especially the second half.

 

The Jaime character thrives on this show whenever Cersei is not involved.

[BlackberryJam]

I think NCW is a chemistry machine and most of his scenes are gold, but with LH, at least in Season 4, he got pretty whiny.  I don't think that LH and NCW have the same chemistry as say, NCW and Finn Jones, or Jerome Flynn, or Charles Dance.  NCW is off the charts with the Peter Dinklage chemistry and the Gwendoline Christie chemistry.  Maybe it's because Jaime is in the subservient role with Cersei that the chemistry doesn't sing.

[jeansheridan]

PW felt off to me because there was this clunky stage direction.  It felt too theatrical.  If the RW was Macbeth, then PW was community theater.  Cercei looks across the space and sees Brienne.  Jaime sees Cercei and Brienne.  Jaime & Loras bump into each other!  Seriously back into each other like clods.  Tyrion was too restrained.  In the books I felt he was so drunk he could barely be diplomatic.  I felt he was spiraling.  I loved it because he lacked caution.  It scared me.  I think the show can't balance that many actors in one scene.  When I think of the pilot ep and how all those actors enter Winterfell and it felt natural and stately.  It wasn't stiff like PW.  I think their new director is not good at this sort of show.  They used the same person a lot this season.  

Edited July 18, 2014 by jeansheridan

[jjjmoss]

Red Wedding was boring.

[PeteMartell]

I think NCW is a chemistry machine and most of his scenes are gold, but with LH, at least in Season 4, he got pretty whiny.  I don't think that LH and NCW have the same chemistry as say, NCW and Finn Jones, or Jerome Flynn, or Charles Dance.  NCW is off the charts with the Peter Dinklage chemistry and the Gwendoline Christie chemistry.  Maybe it's because Jaime is in the subservient role with Cersei that the chemistry doesn't sing.

 

I think part of the problem is that Jaime is not really that much of a character within the Lannister family unit, at least on the show. He certainly should be, but other than a few scenes with Tyrion near the end of the season, I felt like there was a disconnect in all of his interactions with everyone. One of the few times I felt something outside of the finale with Tyrion was his last scene with Cersei, and then early in the season, when Joffrey was humiliating him.

 

The show sees Jaime as a good guy, but they don't seem to know how to write him as such. To them that means cardboard. And then there's the sept scene which has been dug up so many times that Aerys Targaryen will probably awake to haunt us all if I bring it up again, but...yeah.

Red Wedding was boring.

 

The end was chilling, and so impeccably acted.

 

The leadup and the moment where Catelyn saw Roose's armor was also great.

 

I think the whole thing with Talisa's stabbing was so terribly done that it took away a lot of the power.

[Brn2bwild]

Was just thinking about D&D's insistence that the show will only go 7 seasons.  I don't think it should happen -- not just because it will outpace the books, but also because I just don't see how this series could be wrapped up in just 3 more seasons.

 

End of Season 5 (if it tracks the books): Dany is in the Dothraki sea, Jon is stabbed, Tyrion has just arrived in Meereen, Cersei is in prison, Arya and Sansa are still training for whatever it is they're going to do.  The Sand Snakes will be headed to King's Landing to cause trouble.  Oh yeah, and that whole Aegon thing.  

 

In just 2 more seasons, Dany needs to get to Westeros, have meaningful interactions with at least some of the characters, and deal with Aegon.  Jon needs to be resurrected and learn his heritage.  And there's that whole ice zombie threat... does anyone think it won't consume at least 3 or 4 episodes?

 

I think D&D are bluffing when they say that the series will be just 7 seasons, as a way of letting Martin know they aren't going to wait for him.  I also think there's some wistful thinking going on.  They would probably need 8 or 9 seasons to do the series justice -- that is, the television series they created, never mind the book series. 

Edited July 20, 2014 by Brn2bwild

[Winnief]

 

End of Season 5 (if it tracks the books): Dany is in the Dothraki sea, Jon is stabbed, Tyrion has just arrived in Meereen, Cersei is in prison, Arya and Sansa are still training for whatever it is they're going to do.  The Sand Snakes will be headed to King's Landing to cause trouble.  Oh yeah, and that whole Aegon thing.

 

I think the operative words there are "if it tracks the books."  D&D I think are going to be more and more willing to take a different approach than Martin did and accelerate matters.  Frankly the last two books had far too much filler anyway, and I really really doubt they'll include fAegon.

 

 I'm thinking that they will have Dany meet Tyrion and possibly get ready to sail to Westeros by the end of Season Five or certainly early Season 6.  Unlike Martin they're just not going to let her meander forever in Mereen.  

 

Sansa's storyline in the meantime will already be in TWOW territory, (and Seven only know what's going to happen.) Bran's story will probably get to TWOW stuff too.  Arya's training in Braavos can happen during Season Five but events could conspire to bring her back to Westeros in Season 6.  

 

And I think the Sand Snakes will already be in KL by the end of Season Five causing trouble.  We know they're gonna have Jaime in Dorne first then the Riverlands for whatever happens there.  

 

And lastly, from the sounds of things it looks like they're setting it up for the Big Reveal about Jon to take place next season.  Thank the Old Gods and the New!

[Oscirus]

Tyrion was too restrained.  In the books I felt he was so drunk he could barely be diplomatic.

 

Strangely enough, the one thing I thought, when, he was interacting with his nephew at the wedding, was that he needed to STFU he was just making things worse.  Which is the feeling I think they were going for.

 

I think the purple wedding was brilliant in the storylines it set up. Cersei desperately attempting to regain the power that she is losing over the two most important men in her life thanks to Brienne and Margaery. Tyrion's inability to keep his mouth shut even when it would behoove him to do so. A king that was so power hungry that he was willing  to humiliate his allies for his own amusement ( I especially like the change where in the show, the midget show was Joffrey's idea).Some more bonding between Sansa and Tyrion as the wedding cements that  as highborn outcasts, they're all each other's got in Kings Landing.  Finally, as he's poisoned I saw a lost kid swallowed up by a game that he had no business playing.

 

While Tyrion wasn't a standout character in season 4, that was by design since he spent the majority of the season in jail. I found it more problematic that Jon didn't have more of a standout season given all the things that he got to do this season.That's just a nitpick on my part. My only real problem with this season was that the reveal that Littlefinger was the man responsible for killing Jon Arryan was downplayed so much, that, It felt like a throwaway line when Lysa said it.

[Winnief]

 

 

I think the purple wedding was brilliant in the storylines it set up. Cersei desperately attempting to regain the power that she is losing over the two most important men in her life thanks to Brienne and Margaery. Tyrion's inability to keep his mouth shut even when it would behoove him to do so. A king that was so power hungry that he was willing  to humiliate his allies for his own amusement ( I especially like the change where in the show, the midget show was Joffrey's idea).Some more bonding between Sansa and Tyrion as the wedding cements that  as highborn outcasts, they're all each other's got in Kings Landing.  Finally, as he's poisoned I saw a lost kid swallowed up by a game that he had no business playing.

While Tyrion wasn't a standout character in season 4, that was by design since he spent the majority of the season in jail. I found it more problematic that Jon didn't have more of a standout season given all the things that he got to do this season.That's just a nitpick on my part. My only real problem with this season was that the reveal that Littlefinger was the man responsible for killing Jon Arryan was downplayed so much, that, It felt like a throwaway line when Lysa said it.

 

Agree on all points, except the LF reveal; from what I saw that sent shock waves through the Unsullied community, so while they may not have especially highlighted that particular revelation it certainly had the necessary effect.

 

And yeah, watching Cersei's level of spite and pettiness during the Purple Wedding was just delicious.  Lena does Cersei at her bitchiest so well-it's one of the things I look forward to most next season.  

Edited July 20, 2014 by Winnief

[Brn2bwild]

 

 

I think the operative words there are "if it tracks the books."  D&D I think are going to be more and more willing to take a different approach than Martin did and accelerate matters.  Frankly the last two books had far too much filler anyway, and I really really doubt they'll include fAegon.

I'm thinking that they will have Dany meet Tyrion and possibly get ready to sail to Westeros by the end of Season Five or certainly early Season 6.  Unlike Martin they're just not going to let her meander forever in Mereen.

 

But even if they don't, Tyrion still needs to get to Meereen, and Dany still needs to get out (the riding on Drogon scene seems inevitable).  I can't imagine that Dany's flight happening any earlier than Episode 9.  Then she needs to meet Tyrion somehow and resolve whatever ugliness is in their histories, at least temporarily.  That will take at least a few episodes in Season 6.

 

If they do 7 seasons, I could see there being a 7a and 7b, with each being 8 episodes or whatnot, and 7b being released a year later, so it was really like a Season 8 after all.  

[cambridgeguy]

 

If they do 7 seasons, I could see there being a 7a and 7b, with each being 8 episodes or whatnot, and 7b being released a year later, so it was really like a Season 8 after all.

Actor contracts might be a big impediment to doing more than a ten episode season seven, regardless of how they split it up.  While we all like to joke about how many characters end up dying the truth is that the majority of the current main characters will most likely still be alive until close to the very end.  If everybody is unsigned beyond season 7 then it will probably take a king's (or queen's) ransom to get all of the important players back. 

[Avaleigh]

Actor contracts or not, eight seasons just seems more likely especially if the final (7th) season ends up having a part A and B as shows like The Sopranos, Sex and the City, Entourage ended up doing. Yes, the budget for this show is entirely different but it's worth pointing out that at least three of the actors on The Sopranos held out for substantial increases on their salaries and eventually worked out a sweet deal--the success of the show made the increase worthwhile at the end of the day to HBO so I can see something similar happening for GoT provided the show continues to do as well as it has. Also again, I don't care what they say, HBO is so not above milking a show for all it's worth. They know this sort of success doesn't come around every day.

I don't think Dany is going to head to Westeros next season. Dany riding Drogon is going to be her big moment next year so I'm guessing season six is all about the journey to Westeros and taking some part of it once she gets there. I can see her first stop being Dragonstone and after that probably/hopefully the Wall.

I think Dany is going to be busy with Hizdahr and the Harpy and all of that stuff. They did a nice job of setting up Hizdahr's character this year so I can't see them skipping over the marriage and assassination attempt and since the Meereen story likely won't even be featured in every episode, that's a lot of action to expect to take place in one season not to mention if they ffwd to the sailing for Westeros part they'd also need to throw her together with Tyrion (and Jorah) and Khal Pono's tribe before that. (Even if we take away the Dothraki that's still a lot.)

It also looks like Grey Worm and/or Missandei are being set up as important deaths and I'm assuming that has to be for next season. Idk, I think trying to get Dany to sail for Westeros is a pretty tall order for next year's finale even if they skip over things like the Khal Pono detour or the character of the Green Grace. There's also Quentyn and I've given my arguments for why I think he should be includedaand why there is no reason to think his character would need a lot of screen time in order to still be dramatically effective to the story.

I'm also not totally convinced that just because characters like Bran and Sansa are ahead in their storylines necessarily means that we have to fast forward with every other character in order to get them in TWOW territory. In other words, as much as I'd love to know the outcome of the trials of the two queens, I'm not expecting to see a verdict reached in either trial next season.

Similarly, I'm one of the people who is cool with Balon's death being put off even though for all intents and purposes it ought to have happened by now. I guess I like this because I feel like it lends weight to the idea that Melisandre's leeches didn't really have anything to do with it and that the three kings would have died soon anyway whether she'd cast the spell or not.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Avaleigh

[benteen]

Outside of Sansa and Bran, everyone else has enough storyline left for Season 5 to avoid dipping into The Winds of Winter.  After that, it's all new territory (providing that GRRM doesn't finish the book).

 

D and D and HBO had stuck pretty firmly to seven seasons and there hasn't been any wiggle room mentioned so far.  D and D talk about how 10 episodes is the most the production can do.  If they want another season, HBO would have to renegotiate.  Although I have heard about shows deciding to split a season up into two as a way to avoid that (Haven comes to mind).  And of course, AMC broke up Breaking Bad's final season into two parts.  Dean Norris was furious about that although for the show, it was the best thing because the second half of Season 5 (Season 6 technically) did massive ratings.

[lawless]

Similarly, I'm one of the people who is cool with Balon's death being put off even though for all intents and purposes it ought to have happened by now.

I was thinking that if the Show is going to introduce Euron, and I'm getting the sense that he is necessary to the big picture, maybe it makes sense to have Balon die next season, and then immediately do some Greyjoy- succession focused stuff and the Kingsmoot, then the reaving, and so on, all in one season.  If Balon had died already but the Show didn't do anything about his succession this season or last, that whole plotline would be a lot choppier and wouldn't make a lot of sense.  If they are going to do it, it makes sense to start it with Balon's death, then the Kingsmoot and succession, Yara flees, Victarion et al. get to reaving, the Tyrell's freak and demand help from Cersei, Cersei semi-secretly delights in the Tyrell's problems with the Iron Islanders, which plays into the larger feud between Margaery and Cersei, and then we're set up with Euron as a new menace, and Victarion heading for Dany.  Spreading this stuff out over several seasons wouldn't have worked very coherently.  It wasn't my favorite stuff in the Books, but that was mostly because I was impatient to read about the characters I already knew and was invested in.  However, it may be easier to follow on the Show, and, with the passage of time, I have become more tolerant of the Greyjoy stuff, especially since there now seems to be some relationship to the larger story.  If they tighten it up, cast charismatic actors, and finally make the Iron Islanders a real force to be reckoned with rather than easily defeated by Ramsey the sadistic Hobbit, it could be good on the screen.

 

Or it could be boring and confusing as hell, but I'm hoping good casting and writing will make it work.  The Show made me get behind Allister Thorne at the Wall, so I'm trying to be hopeful that it can be done right.

[benteen]

Ramsay the sadistic Hobbit, heheh.  My name for him is Evil Peeta Mellark.

[Brn2bwild]

 

D and D and HBO had stuck pretty firmly to seven seasons and there hasn't been any wiggle room mentioned so far.  D and D talk about how 10 episodes is the most the production can do.  If they want another season, HBO would have to renegotiate.

I think the "We are doing seven seasons, dammit" approach from them is designed for two things:

 

1.  To tell George RR Martin that they are not going to wait for him.

2.  To send a message to HBO that either THEY won't be going beyond seven seasons (thus turning over Season 8 to a successor to oversee), or if they do come back, HBO will have to pony up big time.

[Hecate7]

That's the thing. They signed on to do a job. They're just as entitled to be paid for their work as GRRM is, and I think that's something he loses sight of. It's not fair to stall when they have already lost the battle to stay ahead of Isaac Hempstead-Wright's voice changing. Some roles can be recast, but Bran isn't one of them.

[patchwork]

If Dany flies away on Drogon in episode 9 in episode 10 she could torch the allied army and the last scene is of her sailing to Westeros.  Jorah and Tyrion get enslaved early and there's enough time for them to take over the mercenaries and either offer their service to Dany or sail to Westeros separately. Then later making the offer when she needs help badly enough to take it from two people she considers traitors. 

 

I think for most of the season Dany is going to keep with the books but near the end it's going to be pure D&D/GoT territory which is either brilliant or bloody awful, there's no middle ground. 

[Avaleigh]

Outside of Sansa and Bran, everyone else has enough storyline left for Season 5 to avoid dipping into The Winds of Winter.  After that, it's all new territory (providing that GRRM doesn't finish the book).

 

D and D and HBO had stuck pretty firmly to seven seasons and there hasn't been any wiggle room mentioned so far.  D and D talk about how 10 episodes is the most the production can do.  If they want another season, HBO would have to renegotiate.  Although I have heard about shows deciding to split a season up into two as a way to avoid that (Haven comes to mind).  And of course, AMC broke up Breaking Bad's final season into two parts.  Dean Norris was furious about that although for the show, it was the best thing because the second half of Season 5 (Season 6 technically) did massive ratings.

My understanding is that 10 episodes is the most production can handle if they want the have the new season debut every April. For whatever reason they're resistant to the idea of a later start date even though they would hardly be the first show to push back their premiere date.

I'm not sure which person over at TWoP first called Ramsay a deranged , crazy-eyed hobbit but ever since I read that description I've seen him as some kind of sadistic hobbit Middle Earth refugee with daddy issues.

[SeanC]

And lastly, from the sounds of things it looks like they're setting it up for the Big Reveal about Jon to take place next season.

Based on what?  There's really no reason to think they would do that; it goes completely against their narrative style.

[Oscirus]

There's really no reason to think they would do that; it goes completely against their narrative style.

 

As of right now, Bran really has nothing to do but fill in the relevant backstory that will propel the story into it's final two seasons ( Maggie , Jon's parents, etc).

That and the fact that Sean Bean is actually acknowledging the theory. I don't think the show would be cool with that if the reveal wasn't happening somewhere in the next season.

 

If they do 7 seasons, I could see there being a 7a and 7b, with each being 8 episodes or whatnot, and 7b being released a year later, so it was really like a Season 8 after all.

 

I don't see this show going past a solid seven seasons. Other then the obvious aging problems of the young adult actors. It doesn't seem feasible to expect the cast wants to put their careers on hold for another year when they were given a firm number.

They might do a prequel spinoff with a brand new cast. But this story is likely done four years from now.

[KatWay]

Haven't everyone and their grandmother acknowledged the theory though? I mean, that is going to be the least shocking "reveal" ever. I imagine the reaction would be a resounding "DUH", and D&D might be aware of that since they barely mention the theory. They might think they don't have to foreshadow anything since practically everyone knows about it anyways. 

[SeanC]

As of right now, Bran really has nothing to do but fill in the relevant backstory that will propel the story into it's final two seasons ( Maggie , Jon's parents, etc).

We have no clues as to what Bran will be doing, but the show does not drop big pieces of information like that into the narrative well before they have any significance to the story.  They've been pretty consistent on that.

 

 

That and the fact that Sean Bean is actually acknowledging the theory. I don't think the show would be cool with that if the reveal wasn't happening somewhere in the next season.

Bean hasn't been involved with the show for years.  He was asked about it recently, and commented on it.  I don't read anything more into that.

[Ripley68]

I can see GRRM having planned on making Jon Rheagar's heir, but he's taken so long and so many people think that is the case, he will now do a big "FU" and totally change it.  A previous poster commented on Varys hatred of magic - because of that I can't see him backing dragons as they are the reason there is magic in the world (according to the books).

 

There are serveral plot points that I feel the show has changed fundamentally from the books:  Jon knows that Bran and Rickon are alive - that will change how he reacts to things; Balon is still alive; Sansa is looking to seduce Mr. Pervy mustache; Varys is with Tyrion; the guy who eats the honey locusts at the pits isn't with Dany (so who gets poisoned at the opening of the pit?); Rattleshirt is dead - so who does Melisandre burn?  There doesn't apper to be any baby Mance - Gilly and Sam don't need to take a baby to safety anywhere; 2 of Jon's biggest supporters died at the battle on the wall in the show; and the biggest ones - Cersei and Jamie seem to be together, and Tyrion doesn't hate Jamie.  As I see it, Sansa and Littlefinger have 1 or 2 chapters left from books 4 and 5, Bran has 1 chapter left, Arya and Tyrion have all of their chapters, Dany has half of her chapters, Jon, Sam, Cersei and Jamie have all of theirs.

 

I could live with out Arianne being in the show, but want Quentyn  - not only does he free the dragons, but he shows Dany that she does have some support in Westeros.  I HATED the ironborn chapters, could live without those, but we probably need Victarions horn.  Want Tyrion's travels REALLY condensed, though I liked all Arya's chapters.  I also want fake Arya, she is kind of pivotal to Winterfell and Theon storyline. Plus it would be great to see some characters reactions when they meet her and they know who the real Arya is (maybe that is why Brienne met her in the show?)

 

I hope the dragons become more tame.  Laughed with my husband that I didn't get upset over any characters death's in the books, but got teary when Dany locked up her babies.

[benteen]

My understanding is that 10 episodes is the most production can handle if they want the have the new season debut every April. For whatever reason they're resistant to the idea of a later start date even though they would hardly be the first show to push back their premiere date.

I'm not sure which person over at TWoP first called Ramsay a deranged , crazy-eyed hobbit but ever since I read that description I've seen him as some kind of sadistic hobbit Middle Earth refugee with daddy issues.

 

While I would like more episodes per season, I'm glad the show always starts on time every year.  The last thing I would want to see is the show take Sopranos-like breaks (which I'll admit are a LOT shorter than GRRM's breaks between books).  Without a new book to fill the gap, it really would suck.  Audiences proved that with The Sopranos, they would wait.  But I think for a variety of reasons D and D and HBO don't want to wait.  I don't blame them and I'm glad they don't.