Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Hecate7]

 

OTOH, the Kindly Man is still with us. He's the only one I can think of unless Sam counts.OTOH, the Kindly Man is still with us. He's the only one I can think of unless Sam counts.OTOH, the Kindly Man is still with us.

Sam might not count because she doesn't actually know him.

 

As for the Kindly Man, he could be a different FM every day, all wearing the same face. We have no way of knowing who that really is.

[Winnief]

So it looks like Varys is actually heading to Essos with Tyrion and that is sure as hell a big change...but probably a good one now that I think about it. His interactions with Tyrion will go a long way toward improving the storyline of Tyrion's travels, it would be a tragedy to have Conleth Hill disappear for nearly a whole season, Varys with Dany and Barristan is sure to be a hoot, and Kevan and Pycelle can be killed by some other party just as easily.  Perhaps LF's agents, maybe someone from Dorne-plenty of possibilities that work.

 

Also, I'm taking this as another indication they aren't doing the fAegon storyline which is all for the good.

 

Things are progressing very rapidly for Bran and Dany-not so much vis a vis the Ironborn, (when will Balon ever die?!?)

 

Also it seems they will save Jon's promotion for next season along with LSH-which may be their way of adding a little more interest to that season in terms of developments.  

[benteen]

I still think Varys will bail on Tyrion at some point...he's not going to let go of his precious Realm.  Besides, if he runs into Jorah, it could get very ugly for him.

[Scarlett45]

Yes I think Varys will meet up with Illyio in Pentos and then make his way back to Kings Landing to kill Kevan and set things in play for season 6. He just needs to get out of Kings Landing post Tywin's murder.

Tyrion will have an interesting journey with Jorah I think as they make their way back to Dany. I wonder if we will still have her plot regarding marrying into Mereen's nobility.

[Winnief]

Also with Tormund AND Mance already on hand as prisoners, it won't take as much time or exposition for Jon to negotiate a peace treaty with the Wildlings-hell he was already on the brink of it when Stannis arrived.  This again helps push Jon's storyline along faster to ensure we get his death-and in all likelihood his resurrection next season with the Big Reveal.  Also like how they established with just a quick exchanged look that Melisandre is immediately interested in Jon.  

 

 

Tyrion will have an interesting journey with Jorah I think as they make their way back to Dany. I wonder if we will still have her plot regarding marrying into Mereen's nobility.

 

Almost certainly, since we already met Hizdahr-what I'm more curious about is whether they bother to include Dany's detour back to the Dothraki sea with Kal Jaqo or whether D&D decided it was unnecessary filler and prefer to concentrate on getting to the Battle of Mereen and the aftermath-with Dany meeting Tyrion (possibly even Varys as well,) and finally get moving to Westeros.  I'm betting the latter.

 

Edited to add, I just saw this chat with D&D online

 

 http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-tyrion-kills-tywin-711956

 

It's an interesting read but to me the most telling bit was at the very end...

 

 

As for season five, we're still figuring out how we can afford everything we want to do. There are a few sequences that are absolutely terrifying from a production standpoint.

 

Sure as hell sounds like they're going for Battles of Mereen and Winterfell next season!

Edited June 16, 2014 by Winnief

[benteen]

Good lord, Entertainment Weekly has posted a picture of Lady Stoneheart with an article by a writer saying how much of a good idea it was not to have her appear.  He's acting like she's not going to appear which is very unlikely.  Way to spoil things for the Unsullied, EW.

[Winnief]

Seriously.  EW owes us all an apology.  

[benteen]

I suppose Varys going with Tyrion will also take any suspicion away from Jaime in regards to letting Tyrion go.  Although I suspect Cersei will be just as blind as her father was toward their incest in suspecting her brother/lover.

[Winnief]

 

I suppose Varys going with Tyrion will also take any suspicion away from Jaime in regards to letting Tyrion go.  Although I suspect Cersei will be just as blind as her father was toward their incest in suspecting her brother/lover.

 

That too.   I do suspect we're going to see Jaime grappling with some serious guilt next season.  

 

Wonder if perhaps one reason, Balon hasn't yet died on the show is they're also planning on saving that whole IB plot for next season too.  

[benteen]

Balon!  I guess what is dead truly never dies in his case!  I think his luck will finally be over next season but I can't believe how long he's survived.

I've seen it speculated here that Sam and Gilly will be taking Shireen with them to Oldstown.  It's clear they're not establishing a child for Mance.

 

EW has taken down the Lady Stoneheart art but they still have a picture of Catelyn attached to their Lady Stoneheart article.  Seriously, EW, there were better ways to do that than spoiling it for others.  She's going to have to appear because of the way Jaime and Brienne's storyline left off.  Unless they do send Jaime to Dorne for the entire season and change everything.

Edited June 16, 2014 by benteen

[loki567]

I wonder if they'll keep Balon over Euron. You have to figure the Ironborne is the plotline that's going to get shredded all to hell. You keep Balon alive, you avoid the Kingsmoot and the various brothers. I have no idea what they'll do with Yara, maybe sent her East in Victarion's place. After the way her story ended this year I can't imagine them sending her after Theon again.

 

So I guess no Val. Tormund will fill her various duties of gathering what remains of Mance's army. Or are they doing that storyline? They were really unclear about what happened with the rest of the Wildlings.

 

I'll say it again. It was a huge mistake to try and make The Watchers on the Wall into an episode nine. Jon and Stannis' plotlines would have benefitted so much from a collision early in the season. Could have avoided so much meaningless filler. Jon's storyline is going to be overstuffed with him becoming the LC and getting killed all in the same year. Jon and Stannis are two characters the writers have pretty much always fumbled on.

[Advance35]

I think next season is going to be beyond awesome.   Maybe it's because I feel like I've waited years to see certain characters proceed  a.k.a Sansa/Alayne (sorry Martin you've had years) and compared to the wait for WoW, waiting til next season will be a cake walk.

 

I liked how this episode made the season feel like a real closing in a way.    The Wall/Jon Snow is being tied to the ongoing conflict for the Iron Throne VIA Stannis Baratheon.   Arya letting go of the past and heading toward a possible future.   Sansa is out of Kings Landing and is allied with Littlefinger and seems willing to aide him in his plans  to seize even more power and influence in exchange for his protection from the Lannisters.   Roose and Ramsay ascending to control of the North and moving into Winterfell.   Tyrion escaped his execution while as someone else put it "possibly becoming the monster his family always said he was" leaving Westeros.   Joffrey and Tywin are both dead, Cersei and Jaimie have reunited just in time for House Lannister to come crashing down around them.    It just weirdly feels like there was so much advancement.

 

I think we will see more deviations next season.   For starters I fully expect Loras Tyrell to die on screen in Kings Landing through some machination of Cersei's.    And that's just off the top of my head.

 

I think they will cast Harry the Heir and I think we'll have Littlefinger and Sansa working as partners in crime to further dominate and gain power in the Vale, while Cersei/The Tyrell's still think Littlefinger and The Vale are loyal to the Iron Throne.

 

Alex Graves said that the writers know where all this is going but that A LOT still has to happen to get a lot of these characters to the end of their journeys.   I'm excited.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Advance35

[patchwork]

I think if the R+L=J theory is true we'll be getting hints of it via Mel next season, the way she was looking at him through the flames was downright creepy even for her. 

 

There's a lot going on in the North so I wouldn't be surprised if things like Val, Mance's son and Sam leaving aren't streamlined or dumped altogether. As Jon knows his younger brothers are alive there's even less reason for him to be tempted by Stannis' offer. In the books more was made of his desire to be a true Stark. The reason he gives Mance for joining the Wildlings is that he wasn't good enough to sit at with his siblings when important guests were visiting in the show it's about the White Walkers. Not that it would stop D&D but the build-up isn't there for the promise of Winterfell to be as alluring as it was in the books.  

[ElizaD]

Cersei/Jaime has been so odd this season. I thought it was building up to their separation, but instead their arc starts with Cersei rejecting Jaime/Jaime raping Cersei and ends with Cersei coming on to Jaime/Jaime choosing oathbreaking sex with her over the Kingsguard book. It's a golden hand-kissing reunion! Cersei doesn't even try to manipulate him and it's like they're more in love than ever. Now it's just going to fall apart because of the murder of Tywin even though Cersei doesn't know about Jaime's role in Tyrion's escape and Jaime doesn't know about Cersei screwing Lancel and friends?

 

They wrote this season last year and the showrunners said 7 seasons before the premiere aired, so they couldn't have known about season 4's great ratings when they plotted all this out. If this was indeed done with 7 instead of 8 seasons in mind, some plots have been surprisingly slow. Cersei and Jaime haven't broken up, Jon isn't LC. Stoneheart isn't around but Balon the immortal Greyjoy is!

[Avaleigh]

I keep seeing the speculation that Jaime will spend the bulk of next season away from KL. Is there any reason he shouldn't stick around for the first half of the season? Ideally the first episode would contain reactions and the funeral. There's Tommen and Margaery's wedding, plus he'll likely need to interact with Loras (assuming Loras joins the KG) , Bronn, Tommen, and maybe Lancel in addition to whatever scenes he'd have with Cersei. I don't know, I do agree that losing Tywin, Tyrion, and Jaime from KL is going to be tough.

Curious about what Jojen's death does to the Jojen paste theories

[Winnief]

 

 

I think next season is going to be beyond awesome.   Maybe it's because I feel like I've waited years to see certain characters proceed  a.k.a Sansa/Alayne (sorry Martin you've had years) and compared to the wait for WoW, waiting til next season will be a cake walk.

I liked how this episode made the season feel like a real closing in a way.    The Wall/Jon Snow is being tied to the ongoing conflict for the Iron Throne VIA Stannis Baratheon.   Arya letting go of the past and heading toward a possible future.   Sansa is out of Kings Landing and is allied with Littlefinger and seems willing to aide him in his plans  to seize even more power and influence in exchange for his protection from the Lannisters.   Roose and Ramsay ascending to control of the North and moving into Winterfell.   Tyrion escaped his execution while as someone else put it "possibly becoming the monster his family always said he was" leaving Westeros.   Joffrey and Tywin are both dead, Cersei and Jaimie have reunited just in time for House Lannister to come crashing down around them.    It just weirdly feels like there was so much advancement.

 

Agreed.  I'm still impatient to see what happens next but unlike the books, I actually feel like we're making real progress here.  We'll be getting new material for Bran and especially Sansa next season and I'm pumped.  I also think we'll actually see either the Battle of Ice, the Battle of Mereen or both and learn the aftermath.

 

 

 

I think if the R+L=J theory is true we'll be getting hints of it via Mel next season, the way she was looking at him through the flames was downright creepy even for her.

There's a lot going on in the North so I wouldn't be surprised if things like Val, Mance's son and Sam leaving aren't streamlined or dumped altogether. As Jon knows his younger brothers are alive there's even less reason for him to be tempted by Stannis' offer. In the books more was made of his desire to be a true Stark.

 

They will definitely be bringing in R+L=J next season.  I don't think Sam's going anywhere either-no one's mentioned an Oldtown set and he can do research just as easily at the Wall.  No Mance's baby switcheroo, no Val (Jon already has Mance and Tormund on hand to negotiate with anyway,) and even if Stannis does offer Jon WF it won't be that big a deal.  My guess is they want to keep moving so they can get Stannis and his men moving on WF, get Lord Commander Jon to make peace with the Wildlings, and then have him assassinated-with Mel probably bringing him back in Episode 10 with the help of a human sacrifice.  (Pray to the Old Gods and the New it won't be Shireen but rather Theon in front of a Weirwood tree to put him out of his misery.) They've clearly set it up for Mel to at least try to sacrifice Shireen-whether she succeeds or not.  

 

 

I think they will cast Harry the Heir and I think we'll have Littlefinger and Sansa working as partners in crime to further dominate and gain power in the Vale, while Cersei/The Tyrell's still think Littlefinger and The Vale are loyal to the Iron Throne.

Depends how important Harry is to the story or not.  The prophecy suggests Sansa will take down LF, but other than that, I have no idea where Sansa's story in the Vale is going-and that's what makes it so exciting!

[KatWay]

 

he prophecy suggests Sansa will take down LF,

which prophecy is that? The only one I can think of that related to Sansa is where she might slay a giant (whatever that means) in a castle of snow and I never thought that might refer to Littlefinger. He's like the opposite of a giant. But I'll freely admit I don't especially pay attention the million prophecies in ASOIAF, mostly because I dislike them and find them a really cheap way of foreshadowing and giving people motivations.

[ElizaD]

So Margaery's last S4 appearance was in 4x06 and her last proper scene was in 4x05. The Tyrells fell off the face of the earth in the second half of the season after being so prominent in the first. Ellaria didn't appear in 4x10 to give any foreshadowing of Dorne's reaction. Sansa and Theon missed the last two episodes. And that's before the addition of new players in Dorne/Iron Islands/Braavos in S5. Trying to make all the structural/timing issues work is going to be such a challenge.

 

I'm glad that Varys will be part of Tyrion's plot for at least a couple of early episodes. It's possible that he skips the middle ones and returns to do some murdering in the finale.

 

I keep seeing the speculation that Jaime will spend the bulk of next season away from KL. Is there any reason he shouldn't stick around for the first half of the season? Ideally the first episode would contain reactions and the funeral. There's Tommen and Margaery's wedding, plus he'll likely need to interact with Loras (assuming Loras joins the KG) , Bronn, Tommen, and maybe Lancel in addition to whatever scenes he'd have with Cersei. I don't know, I do agree that losing Tywin, Tyrion, and Jaime from KL is going to be tough.

I guess it's assumed that he will leave KL early so that the Dorne plot can get started and finished in a way that allows undercover Jaime to be reachable again by late S5 (Cersei's letter, but then, does that need to be cut if there's no time for a nasty breakup that would make Show Jaime reject Cersei?; Brienne if Stoneheart isn't her S5 finale) and for Doran to reveal the real Martell plan. If they have 8 seasons, Jaime could spend all season first chatting in KL and then sneaking to Dorne where Myrcella's rescue is his finale. If there's 7, it just feels strange IMO that Jaime would be so focused on content that's a mix of TV only-filler and book B-plots.

 

At this point, it feels like Show Loras isn't joining the KG. He's the Tyrell heir and Tywin is no longer around to force Cersei to marry him.

 

Sansa prophecy: the sigil of Littlefinger's father was the Titan of Braavos. The giant-killing could be that (epic version), or it could be the doll in the snow castle scene (down to earth version).

[Winnief]

 

Sansa prophecy: the sigil of Littlefinger's father was the Titan of Braavos. The giant-killing could be that (epic version), or it could be the doll in the snow castle scene (down to earth version).

 

Thank you for posting that for me!  The former version seems more likely because elsewise why bother with the prophecy at all if it was about something as unimportant as a doll?!?  And certainly the show is establishing that she's becoming a player in her own right...

 

That's the thing with the Stark sisters-they're so completely different in most ways but one thing they do have in common...they're both Quick Studies.

 

 And Survivors.

[KatWay]

 

Sansa prophecy: the sigil of Littlefinger's father was the Titan of Braavos. The giant-killing could be that (epic version)

I feel like that's too obscure though. Usually the prophecies are actually pretty straightforward from what I remember, And the titan is not Littlefinger's sigil, only his father's, so why would it point to him? Not to mentiont he wording was "giant" - I feel like if it had meant Littlefinger, at least they should have used the word titan. If it had been Sansa slaying a bird, that would have been more interesting, because it could have meant Littlefinger or Sweetrobin.

[Minneapple]

Cersei/Jaime has been so odd this season. I thought it was building up to their separation, but instead their arc starts with Cersei rejecting Jaime/Jaime raping Cersei and ends with Cersei coming on to Jaime/Jaime choosing oathbreaking sex with her over the Kingsguard book. It's a golden hand-kissing reunion! Cersei doesn't even try to manipulate him and it's like they're more in love than ever. Now it's just going to fall apart because of the murder of Tywin even though Cersei doesn't know about Jaime's role in Tyrion's escape and Jaime doesn't know about Cersei screwing Lancel and friends?

Yeah, I bitched about this in the episode thread a bit, but both of these characters have been all over the place this season and I just don't get what the writers are trying to do with them. I was completely annoyed by Cersei's characterization in this finale. Cersei threatening to give up her position of power to protect her kids? But I complain about this after like every episode, so I think I just need to accept that TV Cersei is not Book Cersei and move on.

 

Next season I can see them having a falling out if Cersei finds out that Jaime helped Tyrion escape. Especially if Jaime feels guilty enough that he confesses everything to her. Otherwise I don't know. There's no Lancel and Kettleblack and Moon Boy involved here.

 

I hope they do start at least building up to R+L=J next season (well, if the theory is true), because otherwise it will wind up as some large info dump in the series' penultimate episode or something like that. O BY THE WAY Jon's parents are these people we've hardly talked about before, but it turns out his parentage is kind of a big deal!

[KatWay]

I wonder if Margaery might tell Jaime about Lancel? I suppose Varys could have whispered it to her and she might enjoy the opportunity to break up the Lannisters for good. There needs to be a falling out and it really should come from Jaime not Cersei (though that could happen once she hears about Tyrion's escape).

[Meredith Quill]

Alex Graves talks about Lady Stoneheart's absence - WiC.net article

[KatWay]

Well, that comes across as being really dismissive of the storyline overall - makes me wonder if they know more than we do, namely that Lady Stoneheart doesn't do anything important after all and ultimately has little impact on the story overall, or if they just don't care.

[Meredith Quill]

My question from reading that article is this: What would be the point of introducing the fact that Beric has been resurrected X amount of times if not as a preempt for LS?
To ‘prove’ the LoL has real powers? We already know that via Mel’s antics.

 

If they have/had no intention of including LS, why bother with the Beric resurrection storyline at all? Why not just have it that he's been wounded but survived or similar? Doesn't make sense.

[Dev F]

My question from reading that article is this: What would be the point of introducing the fact that Beric has been resurrected X amount of times if not as a preempt for LS?

To ‘prove’ the LoL has real powers? We already know that via Mel’s antics.

 

If they have/had no intention of including LS, why bother with the Beric resurrection storyline at all? Why not just have it that he's been wounded but survived or similar? Doesn't make sense.

 

Oh, I assume we'll get LS eventually. They've laid too much groundwork for it to just drop the storyline altogether. Not just Thoros's resurrection powers (and Arya's reaction to the same) but the mention of Catelyn being thrown into the river, the fact that the map in the opening credits specifically shows that the Inn at the Crossroads is right downstream from the Twins (even though it's never been a highlighted location), Bran's dream of Lady Catelyn turning deathly gray as she screams at her son to "promise me!" and the conspicuous edit in season 2 that cuts from Arya going down her revenge list to Catelyn staring with icy hatred at Littlefinger as he comes to deliver her husband's bones.

 

Indeed, I could imagine that the finale could lead directly into that storyline next season, if Brienne and Pod go searching for Arya and think she might behind a new series of rumors about someone murdering Freys in the Riverlands . .

Edited June 16, 2014 by Dev F

[Mya Stone]

I am truly disappointed that we didn't get a LS reveal, however...having given this a lot of thought, I think it makes more sense to stall her arrival into next season. Brienne and Pod were in the Eyrie, somewhere (un)Cat was not, as she was stalking the Riverlands looking for Freys to kill. Brienne and Pod's side adventure this season had a lot of talk of Cat, and now that they know Arya is alive (and disappeared from Brienne), this gives an additional layer of rage for LS to exact her vengeance upon Brienne with.

 

I think (and I say this as a fan of George) that the show did well by Brienne's story by not making her into a complete numpty. I really think her chapters had the most wheel-spinning in AFFC, and this side adventure showed a) her physical prowess, b) her ability to listen to others council, and c) her ultimate loyalty to both Cat and Jaime.

 

With that said, I fully expect the Brotherhood to show back up next season while Brienne maybe looks for Arya and Sansa around Riverrun/the Twins (as this is truly where her last living relatives are being held). If LS is not a part of the story then, I believe the characterization of Beric and Thoros will be for naught, and I don't think D&D waste storylines and characters (that badly). Given their penchant for blood and vengeance, it would be a complete wasted opportunity to not have LS in the story. I expect her to be more built up, with brief mentions here and there of dead Freys, building the tension of "Who the eff is killing Freys? It's not Arya, she's in Braavos. Is it the Blackfish?" only to have LS be the reveal at or towards the end of the season.

Given that they are sending Jaime to Dorne this makes the most sense to fluff out next season's story, with a bit of intrigue and mystery added.

[Haleth]

From the WiC article:

But to bring back Michelle Fairley, one of the greatest actresses around, to be a zombie for a little while — and just kill people? It is really sort of, what are we doing with that?

 

She wouldn't be killing people.  She'd be killing Freys.  And wouldn't all viewers want to see that?

[Winnief]

 

My question from reading that article is this: What would be the point of introducing the fact that Beric has been resurrected X amount of times if not as a preempt for LS?

To ‘prove’ the LoL has real powers? We already know that via Mel’s antics.

 

To play devil's advocate, it could be they're just setting it up Jon's eventual resurrection on the show-with him perhaps not suffering the same residual effects as Beric IF his resurrection is also coupled with a sacrifice-remember they made it clear that Lady's death was enough to snap Bran out of a coma.  Imagine what the use of King's blood could do...

 

But actually I'm more in the camp that says they're just saving LSH for next season.  He wasn't being dismissive of LSH-he was dismissive of the idea of her only being a killer zombie and they prefer to use her when she'll have more to do and a larger story arc.

 

 

I hope they do start at least building up to R+L=J next season (well, if the theory is true), because otherwise it will wind up as some large info dump in the series' penultimate episode or something like that. O BY THE WAY Jon's parents are these people we've hardly talked about before, but it turns out his parentage is kind of a big deal!

 

I would argue they were setting it up during the finale-Mel was staring at Jon so hard because she could sense the King's blood in him.  I'm betting Bran's visions next season, will also be dropping hints.  

[Meredith Quill]

I took it that Mel was staring at Jon because she's seen him in her flame visions.

[patchwork]

To play devil's advocate, it could be they're just setting it up Jon's eventual resurrection on the show-with him perhaps not suffering the same residual effects as Beric IF his resurrection is also coupled with a sacrifice-remember they made it clear that Lady's death was enough to snap Bran out of a coma.  Imagine what the use of King's blood could do...

 

But actually I'm more in the camp that says they're just saving LSH for next season.  He wasn't being dismissive of LSH-he was dismissive of the idea of her only being a killer zombie and they prefer to use her when she'll have more to do and a larger story arc.

 

 

I want to see Lady Stoneheart and some Frey killing but I wont be surprised if the show keeps the resurrection to Beric and Jon. It does potentially cheapen death by making it so easy to come back, easy might not be the right word but they might consider 3 people being brought back from the dead thanks to the Red God a bit of a cop out.

 

For the same sort of reason only Bran gets to be warg, only Jon (the tradition hero) will cheat death.

 

Book readers might get thrown a bone and some background character speculates why Freys mysteriously dying but we don't see it on screen.

LSH is possibly another deadend storyline that D&D don't bother with. 

[John Potts]

I never expected LSH this Season, for purely practical reasons: they'd never keep the fact that Michelle Fairley was filming scenes quiet. The only possible way to do LSH would be to have somebody (Brienne?) dragged before a cloaked figure who looks at her, cue astonished look on Brienne's face, "But... that's impossible!" and cut to black. Combine that with filming 24 this year, and it's probably easier just to push her back to next Season (assuming they keep her in at all).

[ElizaD]

Yeah, I bitched about this in the episode thread a bit, but both of these characters have been all over the place this season and I just don't get what the writers are trying to do with them. I was completely annoyed by Cersei's characterization in this finale. Cersei threatening to give up her position of power to protect her kids? But I complain about this after like every episode, so I think I just need to accept that TV Cersei is not Book Cersei and move on.

Though TV Cersei is a more genuinely loving mother than Book Cersei, at least that part of the adaptation is pretty consistent, like Saint Tyrion. But TV Jaime is just weird. I hate him in the books and don't buy his redemption because he cares much more about his image than the suffering he's caused to others, but I still feel that he's going backwards on TV. It's like half the time he's not even trying: this week he casually breaks his oaths with Cersei when in the books the sept scene was the last time they had sex.

Book readers might get thrown a bone and some background character speculates why Freys mysteriously dying but we don't see it on screen.

LSH is possibly another deadend storyline that D&D don't bother with. 

If Stoneheart doesn't take Riverrun from the Freys, who does it? Will both Jaime and Brienne survive her? If she really is so easily deleted from the adaptation, GRRM should never have resurrected her at all and invited comments about the revolving door of death that clash with ASOIAF's previous reputation for killing major characters. But he did, and he should make it worth it. The Red Wedding has been the moment of the series. I don't want to see it treated as irrelevant history, I want it to continue to matter and I want the Freys to pay. Stoneheart is the only character who's working on that. Stannis focuses on the Boltons in the North with some Frey ally casualties, but he's GOT's Unfavorite and they might not even bother to show non-Walda Freys in that plot.

 

I never expected LSH this Season, for purely practical reasons: they'd never keep the fact that Michelle Fairley was filming scenes quiet.

The returns of Balon and Aemon were kept quiet in S3, and I think it was only right before the S2 finale that speculation about Drogo's return started on TWOP.

[Coconuts]

My question from reading that article is this: What would be the point of introducing the fact that Beric has been resurrected X amount of times if not as a preempt for LS?

To ‘prove’ the LoL has real powers? We already know that via Mel’s antics.

 

If they have/had no intention of including LS, why bother with the Beric resurrection storyline at all? Why not just have it that he's been wounded but survived or similar? Doesn't make sense.

But does he, really? Mel told Thoros he shouldn't be able to do that, and if there's a Weirwood internet, there could be some kind of Fire (or something) internet, with someone pulling those strings, too.

[ElizaD]

EW interviews the showrunners

 

Weiss: Well, I don’t think Tywin is a villain.

Benioff: That’s a fair point. If you read the story from the Stark point of view…

Weiss: …then I guess he would be a villain.

Benioff: But Tywin isn’t torturing prostitutes for pleasure. He’s not a sadist. He’s ruthless, for sure. But there’s an argument to be made that Westeros needs ruthlessness. You look at Daenerys across the sea — she’s crucifying 163 masters; she’s pretty ruthless, too. So you love Daenerys even when she’s killing people and condemn Tywin. I think somebody asked Charles about that in an interview and he was quite resistant to the idea of Tywin as a villain. I think Dan’s right. I don’t think of him as evil.

Weiss: I would call him Lawful Neutral.

 

Ordering a teenager brutally gangraped and making your son participate to prove a point isn't sadism? Encouraging the torture and slaughter of civilians as a deliberate strategy isn't evil? Breaking the greatest taboo of your society is lawful? Almost every character in this faux-medieval world thinks that Tywin is a brutal man who goes too far and one of those utterly unnecessary instances of brutality ultimately got him killed by his son. Tywin's approach is the reason why Westeros is full of houses that want to see the Lannisters go down and are eager to murder even his grandchildren in the name of revenge. I'm not surprised, but it's still sad to have confirmation that the showrunners buy into the Hard Man Making Hard Choices hype and don't get that war crimes aren't just idle chatter about abstract morality, if they're accepted and become standard practice the way they were for Tywin it can cause society to break down instead of saving it with awesome ruthlessness.

 

But if that's what they say about Tywin, no wonder the show ended up with Saint Tyrion. He's the lesser evil in the books; on the show, that makes him Lawful Good.

[Hecate7]

I keep seeing the speculation that Jaime will spend the bulk of next season away from KL. Is there any reason he shouldn't stick around for the first half of the season? Ideally the first episode would contain reactions and the funeral. There's Tommen and Margaery's wedding, plus he'll likely need to interact with Loras (assuming Loras joins the KG) , Bronn, Tommen, and maybe Lancel in addition to whatever scenes he'd have with Cersei. I don't know, I do agree that losing Tywin, Tyrion, and Jaime from KL is going to be tough.

Curious about what Jojen's death does to the Jojen paste theories

Confirms them, I should think.

 

Season 1 will probably start with the paste. Jojen is dead on the show because he's dead in the books, too. He's a sacrifice and knew it from the start in both versions.

[Meredith Quill]

But does he, really? Mel told Thoros he shouldn't be able to do that, and if there's a Weirwood internet, there could be some kind of Fire (or something) internet, with someone pulling those strings, too.

 

I'm basing my logic on the facts as presented to us thus far, which is that Thoros has resurrected Beric numerous times. If that turns out to be inaccurate, that's a whole other conversation :)

[CrashTextDummie]

It cannot be overstated what a stroke of genius it was to have Brienne run into Arya and the Hound. It has improved her storyline, as well as Arya's, by orders of magnitude. A much more satisfying end for the Hound than him succumbing to a scratch wound as well. In the book, it was kind of a no-brainer that Arya would go to Braavos, in a "where else would she go" kind of way. Here she actually had a choice, with Brienne representing a link to her mother and her past life and she actively rejected it.

[jjjmoss]

T10 moments I’m looking forward to in S5:
Cersei berates Tommen about Margaery, Cersei visits Margaery, Cersei’s capture, Cersei is shorn
Arya meets the kindly man, Arya can’t quite give up Needle, Arya dons her first disguise, Arya makes her first assassination, Arya kills someone on her list
*Sansa goes down the bucket to depart the Eyrie (likely to not happen)

 

If the writers pull these off, and come up with new kickass Sansa material, S5 could be quite good actually.

Perhaps further helped if Arianne and/or Melisandre go beyond book 5 too...

[KatWay]

 

Here she actually had a choice, with Brienne representing a link to her mother and her past life and she actively rejected it.

To be fair, Brienne also carried a Lannister sword. Arya had no way of knowing she spoke the truth. Going from being one person's hostage to another one's probably wasn't very enticing to her. She still wanted to up to the Wall to Jon after she got away, only when that also wasn't an option did she choose Braavos.

 

By the way, in the Vulture interview they said why they ended the season on Arya on the ship: Because production was only willing to pay for it (and they wanted to have the wide shot of the ship on the ocean with Westeros behind) if it was the last shot of the season.

[benteen]

Agreed completely ElizaD.  D and D's assessment of Tywin was wrong but then again, look at what we got with Jaime and Cersei in the sept this season.  We also had the comment by Weiss back in Season 2 that "Jaime is a monster who loves killing."  Tywin might not do it for shits and giggles like Ramsay, Joffrey, and the Mountain but he's a monster too.

 

GRRM was also interviewed though he talks about the scene where Tyrion kills Shae and Tywin as he wrote it in the book.  He does say that killing Shae is the darkest mark in Tyrion's life so he doesn't give him an out.  He said he'll be haunted by it and Tywin's death for the rest of his life.  The next question was interesting...it seems to dispel the idea that Shae was a Tywin plan all along but GRRM adds something at the end...

 

 

Q: Right, and there’s also the surprise at Tywin’s hypocrisy when he finds her in his bed. Did Tywin know she was a prostitute [in the book version that's not clear]? Or did he just not care?
GRRM: Oh, I think Tywin knew about Shae. He probably figured out she was the same camp-follower that he expressly said “you will not bring that whore to court,” and that Tyrion defied him again and did bring that whore to court. As to precisely what happened here, that’s something I don’t really want to talk about because there’s still aspects of it I haven’t revealed that will be revealed in later books. But the role of Varys in all of this is also something to be considered.

 

The rest of the interview...

 

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/

 

You know, maybe it's Varys who tells Tyrion the truth about Tysha (if D and D haven't completely given up on the storyline).  Tyrion's first marriage wasn't exactly a secret.  LF knew about it in the book and on the show, Bronn mentions hearing men talk about it in the Lannister war camp.  Varys likely knows what went down with Tyrion's wife as well.  Why would he tell Tyrion the truth?  Because he would want to poison Tyrion against Jaime and make him want to help Dany even more.  Just an idea.

Edited June 16, 2014 by benteen

[Minneapple]

I hate him in the books and don't buy his redemption because he cares much more about his image than the suffering he's caused to others, but I still feel that he's going backwards on TV. It's like half the time he's not even trying: this week he casually breaks his oaths with Cersei when in the books the sept scene was the last time they had sex.

I sort of agree. I mean, I love Book Jaime and I love his redemption. TV Jaime on the other hand -- you're right, he's all over the place. I think that annoys me more than anything else. The Kingsguard book that he casually tossed aside to have sex with Cersei was supposed to be an important symbol of his change and of him making the right choices.

 

I really want them to have the falling out next season. Jaime will probably be in King's Landing for at least a few episodes (he has to be there for Tywin's funeral at least) before he leaves. Perhaps he will go to Dorne as has been speculated rather than the riverlands.

[Maximum Taco]

Agreed completely ElizaD.  D and D's assessment of Tywin was wrong but then again, look at what we got with Jaime and Cersei in the sept this season.  We also had the comment by Weiss back in Season 2 that "Jaime is a monster who loves killing."  Tywin might not do it for shits and giggles like Ramsay, Joffrey, and the Mountain but he's a monster too.

 

GRRM was also interviewed though he talks about the scene where Tyrion kills Shae and Tywin as he wrote it in the book.  He does say that killing Shae is the darkest mark in Tyrion's life so he doesn't give him an out.  He said he'll be haunted by it and Tywin's death for the rest of his life.  The next question was interesting...it seems to dispel the idea that Shae was a Tywin plan all along but GRRM adds something at the end...

 

 

The rest of the interview...

 

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/

 

You know, maybe it's Varys who tells Tyrion the truth about Tysha (if D and D haven't completely given up on the storyline).  Tyrion's first marriage wasn't exactly a secret.  LF knew about it in the book and on the show, Bronn mentions hearing men talk about it in the Lannister war camp.  Varys likely knows what went down with Tyrion's wife as well.  Why would he tell Tyrion the truth?  Because he would want to poison Tyrion against Jaime and make him want to help Dany even more.  Just an idea.

 

I always thought the theory of Shae working for Tywin all along was ridiculous.

 

Bronn was bought super easily, Tywin could have easily bribed Tyrion's guards or Bronn himself if he really wanted to spy on him. Tyrion was pretty easy going with most information. Letting Tyrion keep Shae around was actually contrary to Tywin's plans. Tyrion had less reason to consummate his marriage with Sansa when he had a little Shae-side-action to relieve his frustration.

 

This interview pretty much confirms what I figured all along, Book!Shae was just a whore. She stayed with Tyrion because he kept her in a manse and gave her pretty things and when his star fell she decided to cash out her chips when Cersei offered her a marriage to a knight. Then I'm guessing Tywin decided he'd rather have her, and it's more profitable to be the Hand's whore than it is to be some landed knight's wife.

 

It sounds like what they were going for with TV!Shae was that she's much more like Tysha, she did love Tyrion, but he broke her when he tried to send her away and called her a whore, so she became what he called her.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[MichaelaRae]

I think D and D don't understand what makes a villain if they think Tywin's psychological torture of at least one of his sons for his entire life isn't...you know, villainous. His treatment of Tyrion, show or book, is inarguably abusive. The twisted games he plays with his other children's futures is just about as bad. I admit that I am colored by a strong like of Tyrion (and not just the version I got on the show, I actually prefer the rather grayer version in the book), but part of why I keep trying to find a way to like Jaime in spite of his awful deeds is because of his love for his brother, and part of the reason I hate Cersei is that, despite the dedication she has to her children and her professed loyalty to family, she blames an infant for killing her mother and would kill him dead herself in an instant if she could. There is always talk about how Tyrion is Tywin's "true" son because of their logical, shrewd minds, Cersei is REALLY Tywin's son because of her complete lack of scruples and a hypocritical view of what family is.

[ShadowHunter]

When it comes to the show I find that being a Jaime fan is one of the hardest things because they messed up so much of what made him great to read in the books. I can never shake the feeling that D and D do not like Jaime as much as they do other characters. I just feel like they do not understand him. As someone who belongs to a lot of social media sites I will see posted many times people saying they love Jaime when he is with Brienne or Tyrion then they hate him when he is near Cersei. The ones who post that are mostly TV fans who don't read the books. My tumblr is a mix of Jaime/Brienne shippers who fight with Jaime/Cersei shippers. I like Jaime with Brienne also and was so glad in the books when his relationship with Cersei turned sour but the fact that on tumblr and twitter his character thanks to the show has been reduced to shipping wars is nuts. I know many book readers who feel that they have destroyed his character on the show which is sad to me. I agree but I am still trying to be supportive of the character. The books do so much more of a better job getting inside his head and actions then the show does. Last season was good for him show wise but this season he was all over the place. I like that the show made the Tyrion and Jaime relationship even stronger and the deal he made with Tywin was beautiful. That was a great Jaime moment to me that never happened in the books, and I like that he visited Tyrion on the show more. I don't understand why they can do good things like that for him but screw him up in other area's. It's like Jaime has a split personality on the show. I am actually interested in the idea of him going to Dorne and would love for him to interact with his daughter but other then that I am confused and worried about what they will do with him next season. 

[jjjmoss]

To be fair, many great, strong characters on TV are reduced to being part of shipping wars on the Internet cuz, well, that's just the Internet. Doesn't inherently mean they're not complex, realistic people. 

 

Though personally I haven't found Jaime in particular compelling enough on either the show or the books for me to find his POV essential reading. GRRM originally planned to have no POVs outside of those in book 1, which probably was a big factor in how he could possibly have thought the series could be wrapped up as a mere trilogy. While there are later POVs I do find illuminating and entertaining enough to accept his changing his mind, Jaime's is just not one of them.

Edited June 17, 2014 by jjjmoss

[ShadowHunter]

Yes I agree about the shipping wars it will always happen. 

[benteen]

I watched Season 1 before I started reading the books.  I found the character of Jaime to be the closest (that season) to his book counterpart and NCW does that really well.  When they stick to the books, Jaime shines like he did in Season 1 and Season 3.  When D and D go into business for themselves, you get crap like Jaime killing his cousin and raping Cersei (and having sex in the White Tower).  When Jaime's not around Cersei, he's great.  When he's around Cersei, D and D bring the worst out of him.  As for Cersei, well...I don't know what they are doing with her.  She is not supposed to be a sympathetic character and she's had some serious white-washing too.

 

They are going for a harder redemption for Jaime but I think they damaged him severely with the sept scene.  To D and D, I would only say one thing.  One on the Lannister brothers is a rapist and it isn't Jaime.  Now Jaime is an attempted child murderer and a sister******* whose illicit affair with his sister helped to trigger a devastating war.

 

But in the books he's my favorite character because he's a charismatic, complex, and compelling person.

Edited June 17, 2014 by benteen

[Dev F]

You know, maybe it's Varys who tells Tyrion the truth about Tysha (if D and D haven't completely given up on the storyline).  Tyrion's first marriage wasn't exactly a secret.  LF knew about it in the book and on the show, Bronn mentions hearing men talk about it in the Lannister war camp.  Varys likely knows what went down with Tyrion's wife as well.  Why would he tell Tyrion the truth?  Because he would want to poison Tyrion against Jaime and make him want to help Dany even more.  Just an idea.

 

While I remain optimistic that we'll see Lady Stoneheart eventually, I don't expect the writers to return to the Tysha deception. The more I think about it, the more I'm coming around to the idea that the show doesn't need to establish that Tyrion had this great and true love whom Tywin turned into a whore -- because that's exactly what they just showed us with Shae. Once they decided that Shae's love for her lion was real, Tysha's original purpose becomes redundant.

 

More than redundant, in fact. In the books, the point of the Tysha double-cross is to reveal to Tyrion how he got so twisted up that he thought a gold-digging whore like Shae was his true love: because once he did have a true love, and his father deceived him into believing she was just a gold-digging whore. That's what enraged Tyrion enough to send him after his father on a mission of revenge -- the idea that this wrong committed long ago is what led him to his current state of depredation. If show-Tyrion is still genuinely capable of finding true love with Shae, the Tysha deception is no longer something that scarred him forever and led directly to his current woes, it's just a random awful thing his father did to him before the story started.

 

Better to have Tyrion go after Tywin for what he's done to him in the course of the tale, and for Tysha's role to become subordinate as Shae's becomes more significant. Tyrion's first wife becomes, then, the hopelessly naive teenage folly he fears he has repeated with Shae. I'm not sure it's meaningful for her to be more than that in this version of the story.

 

And, really, we should have suspected they might go this way after Shae's reaction to the Tysha story back in season 1: "You should have known she was a whore. . . . A girl who is almost raped doesn't invite another man into her bed two hours later."

Edited June 17, 2014 by Dev F

[Minneapple]

My tumblr is a mix of Jaime/Brienne shippers who fight with Jaime/Cersei shippers.

Seriously, I cannot imagine shipping either couple, not in a "happy ever after" romantic sense anyway. Jaime/Cersei is totally toxic and wrong, and not just because they're siblings. Jaime and Brienne...okay, well, maybe TV-wise I can see it, mostly because of the actors. But book-wise? No, just no. And since I tend to stick to "the books are canon," I will continue to not ship them.

 

In fact all shipping on this show/in the books is just weird to me, considering any character could bite it at any second and the series doesn't exactly lend itself to a forever type of romance. I have trolled through the fics at AO3 and I read a few like The North Remembers, but some of the shipping tags really put me off. I see a ton of Sansa/Sandor and Arya/Gendry and I KNOW that's heavily motivated by the show. A bunch of the Sansa/Tyrion fics also seem to be heavily motivated by Show Tyrion rather than Book Tyrion, that is to say, Sansa is apparently a fool for not falling in love with Tyrion after being forced to marry him against her will. I did read one multi-chapter Jon/Sansa fic (subscribing to R+L=J to make the cousincest a little less creepy than the usual ol' incest) that was pretty well-done. But by and large I can't get behind the shipping in this series.

 

As for Cersei, well...I don't know what they are doing with her.  She is not supposed to be a sympathetic character and she's had some serious white-washing too.

The thing with Book Cersei is that GRRM really gets into her head and lays out all of her motivations. Her hatred of Tyrion, for example. Show viewers just think she irrationally hates Tyrion because he "killed" their mom -- while in the books, it's laid out that the prophecy is making her mad with fear, she thinks Tyrion is the valonqar who will kill her. I think the show has this issue with a lot of things in general, they try to arrive at similar conclusions, but skip a lot of little things that add up, so the real emotional impact or explanation is lost.