Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Avaleigh]

I considered the idea that Tywin is all about keeping up appearances and that this could be the reason for his inability to effectively deal with the family's financial situation. On one hand I agree that appearances mean a lot to Tywin and that he very much cares about people's opinions despite what he might have to say about lions not caring about the voices of the sheep or however it was he put it.

OTOH I'm also thinking about the scene he had with Olenna where he's chiding her over excess of the wedding. He tells her that people who blow their money on things like parties tend not to have their money long. To me, this doesn't sound like a man who is willing to bury his head in the sand when it comes to dealing with hard financial truths. It's also worth pointing out that he's making sure the next two weddings will be low key affairs.

Running with the idea that Tywin is similar to a British aristocrat from the early 20th century, Tywin hasn't taken the measures that a man like that should have taken if he wants to deal with the money issue. First thing---he's had 3-5years notice that the last mine is dry . So what does he do during this time? Does he find himself a young bride with a dowry, Roose Bolton style? Maybe look for a merchant's daughter in the east or maybe even a Hightower from Oldtown. Finding a bride for Tyrion would have been another temporary solution. Instead of doing something like that he chooses to contnue to fund Robert's bullshit in addition to paying for his own expensive war. He also doesn't bother to explain to his children about the lack of money so consequently we see each one of them spending in the way they normally would. Plus, even though Cersei knows that they aren't financially sound Tywin doesn't really make it seem like he plans on dealing with the situation when she questions him about how they might be able to go about making an arrangement of payment. It was a frustrating conversation and IMO it didn't really shed much light on what brilliant idea Tywin had to pay/fend off the Iron Bank. Is it that he truly has no solution?

[Aethermancer]

Benteen, I just made a similar post in the Preview thread. We apparently think a lot alike.

{slaps forehead}. It never occurred to me that the preview with Arya saying someone was coming would mean Brienne and Pod. Should be interesting. As jam packed as the epi will be I don't see how they will fit in Stoneheart. Bums me out because I've been waiting 2 years for her appearance. I thought last season would have been a good place for her to pop up. I'll be very disappointed if Dany gets the last scene again.

 

 

One thing that bugs me, unless they have Arya blurt it out (which is probably what will happen) I don't think Brienne or Pod have ever laid eyes on Arya.  She looks nothing like Sansa, and now that I think on it, they have never even seen Ned Stark either, so any recognition of Arya is going to have to come FROM Arya.

[Aethermancer]

Another thing of course is show Tywin's decision to not deal with the cash flow situation now that they no longer have any working mines. Furthermore, why was he constantly lending someone like Robert money for years if he knew they were running low on funds?

 

 

You lend money to earn interest on the money lent.  Lending to the Iron Throne when your son-in-law is King (and later Grandson), should normally be a very secure investment.  It would basically be a AAA investment in today's world.  The Seven Kingdoms, being an absolute monarchy, makes it VERY easy for the throne to pay back debts. 

 

If you are making no income off your holdings, then you move your assets into something that makes you money.  Even if the Throne has trouble paying back in gold, it can pay back in other lucrative ways.  Granting of lands, easement of taxes, granting authority to levy tariffs, bans on importing competing products...

[Azgard12]

There's been a lot of discussion about the various prophecies in the series.  Everyone really subscribes to all of them, but in my eyes, it would be just like George R R Martin to break one or have them never come true.  It could all just be a ruse.

 

Many think Circe safe, for example, as long as her children live.  Well...

[Dev F]

One thing that bugs me, unless they have Arya blurt it out (which is probably what will happen) I don't think Brienne or Pod have ever laid eyes on Arya.  She looks nothing like Sansa, and now that I think on it, they have never even seen Ned Stark either, so any recognition of Arya is going to have to come FROM Arya.

 

Except that Hot Pie told Brienne that she was with the Hound, who is one of the most immediately recognizable people in Westeros.

[Pete Martell]

When the show has stayed true to the books, Jaime's character has shined.  Particulary in Season 3.  When they've gone into business for themselves, you get scenes like Jaime killing his cousin and raping his sister.  I recall in the "Inside the Episode" segment for the episode for the cousin-killing episode, Weiss said that they wanted that scene to remind audiences that Jaime is "a monster who loves killing."  I'm pretty sure that's what she said and that shows they have no understanding on who the character is.  That description is worthy of The Mountain and Ramsay, not Jaime.  Jaime is certainly capable of monstrous acts....his crippling of Bran being a primary example.  But that was due to this twisted love of Cersei.  Not defending his actions at all of course.  But Jaime isn't a "monster who loves killing."

 

Excellent point brought up as well as how the show has never portrayed Jaime as the badass swordman he was.  Granted, a lot of his fighting happened off-screen.  We only hear about how he cut down 10 men in an attempt to get to Robb.  But his duel with Brienne was supposed to give us an indication of how good he is, or in that case was.  Because even locked up and chained for a year, he nearly beat Brienne in the book.  But they decided to prop up Brienne to superhuman levels by having her easily disarm him on the show in a much less dramatic confrontation.  Yet another action scene better in the books than in the movie.

 

And the scene didn't even really work on that level, because the whole thing was so oddly underwritten. He escaped, offcamera, for barely a moment of screentime, and then he was let go by Catelyn. They must have assumed that we'd need more reason to want the redemption story he would get in season 3, that viewers wouldn't already see him in a negative light for trying to kill Bran or for the contemptuous attitude he had. Yet I'm not even sure how many fans cared that he killed his cousin (someone we barely knew), other than Jaime fans who were annoyed at the poor writing. He certainly never mentioned it again, other than the oblique "I killed for you." So it was pointless shock value. Much like the sept scene.

[Attaboy000]

There's also:

• Tyrion murdering Shae
• Jamie and Varys help Tyrion escape from prison 
• Arya not killing the hound and boarding the boat to Braavos
• Jon's imprisonment by Janos (though I suspect that theis plot line may be dropped)
• Stannis' arrival at The Wall
• Stannis offering Winterfell to Jon
• Selection of the new Lord Commander of the Night's Watch

 

Jon can't be imprisoned because they already skipped that part. It was supposed to happen before they sent him out to meet with Mance. That was the whole point of sending him on a suicide mission!! Even non-book readers are saying that this doesn't make sense...well it would have had the show runners gotten their heads out of their arses.

 

Also I can't see Stannis offering Winterfell to Jon, or the selection of the new Commander. That's like 20 minutes right there.

 

I think the North story will end off with Stannis conveniently arriving at the Wall after spending a whole season with his thumb up his ass, asking for money, and then somehow finding said money to go North when the messages for help came last season.

 

We'll definitely get Lady Stoneheart, if Lena Heady's Instagram pic is anything to go by. But I seriously doubt Brienne will run into her. I think it will be the Epilogue from Book 3, not Brienne's chapter. That's way too early.

 

If I had it my way...we'd spend 10 minutes on the Wall; then move on to Bran, Arya and Tyrion.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Attaboy000

[blixie]

 

Except that Hot Pie told Brienne that she was with the Hound, who is one of the most immediately recognizable people in Westeros.

Yes, and that she was masquerading as a boy, right? So there will be no doubt of who she is if/when they cross paths. I still think Arya will slip away while the Hound/Brienne fight, I wonder if Arya will conk Pod on the head or if it will maybe be a BWB/LS, which would make Arya's slipping away perhaps a blessing, if only not to see her mother like that.

[jjjmoss]

I would prefer for it to be Brienne's chapter because the epilogue isn't very good aside from the surprise of the last page. 

And...it's like Brienne's only interesting chapter. 

[Fen]

 

One thought I had is that maybe we don't get Arya on a boat to Braavos at the end of this season, so that the writers can tease the idea that Fake Arya is Real Arya at the beginning of next season.

 

That's a good idea - I've been wondering if the fake Arya storyline was going to happen.

 

Do you think we'll get a quick P.S at the end of episode 10 (after all the stuff we've to get through) saying: 'By the way, Theon's dad died'.

[Maximum Taco]

That's a good idea - I've been wondering if the fake Arya storyline was going to happen.

 

I think it is going to happen.

 

After Ramsay takes Moat Cailin, Theon/Reek asks if they are going home and Ramsay says "To our new home." I assumed he meant Winterfell. And it looks like Winterfell they are riding to in the distance when he tells Reek that he'll "be needing a bath."

 

The only logical reason for them to be going to Winterfell is for the wedding, and perhaps he needs that bath for his impending nuptials?

 

Finally just as the showrunners never take out anything that makes us feel sorry for Tyrion, I doubt they will ever take anything out that makes Ramsay seem like a detestable monster, and the torture of Jeyne Poole is clearly his most horrible act to date.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Avaleigh]

You lend money to earn interest on the money lent. Lending to the Iron Throne when your son-in-law is King (and later Grandson), should normally be a very secure investment. It would basically be a AAA investment in today's world. The Seven Kingdoms, being an absolute monarchy, makes it VERY easy for the throne to pay back debts.

If you are making no income off your holdings, then you move your assets into something that makes you money. Even if the Throne has trouble paying back in gold, it can pay back in other lucrative ways. Granting of lands, easement of taxes, granting authority to levy tariffs, bans on importing competing products...

In the books it's easy to see how the Lannister family has benfitted from their close royal ties, but on the show Tywin and Cersei together make it seem like Tywin was propping up Robert financially and that Tywin was getting minimal to no return on his investments in the crown.

In the books Tywin is responsible for turning around the family's fortune. He makes them the wealthiest family in the kingdoms while his own father was going around lending people money without ever collecting it back. Now the show is making it seem as though Tywin is the one who is largely responsible for not doing anything about the family finances and that doesn't seem right to me somehow. I prefer the idea of the Lannisters having the money, resources, talent, strength, intelligence, looks, etc and *still* fucking it up even with all their advantages, and largely because of certain familial relationships. I don't want Tywin's inability to properly deal with the financial situation to really factor into the equation of the Fall of House Lannister. I'd prefer it to come about from his mistakes as a man on a personal level. His abominable treatment of Tyrion, his cruel disregard for Cersei, his blindness when it comes to Jamie's issues, ignoring the years long problem of the incest, his own hypocrisy, etc.

Eta

On the show I don't really see the proof that Tywin has been rewarded financially for repeatedly lending Robert money. We don't hear about the Lannisters increasing the size of the Westerlands with lands grants or certain people being showered with titles, or special taxes or ways to get extra income out of Lannisport or anything like that.

It's also annoying t o know that even as late as the epilogue of ADWD we know that Kevan is a very rich man and that there isn't really any reason to think that the Lannisters should be so dependent on the mines for the majority of their finances. I'm sure they make money in a variety of different ways and have done for years so I'm not really seeing how it's logical or necessary to introduce the idea that Tywin is struggling financially.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Maximum Taco]

It's also annoying to know that even as late as the epilogue of ADWD we know that Kevan is a very rich man and that there isn't really any reason to think that the Lannisters should be so dependent on the mines for the majority of their finances. I'm sure they make money in a variety of different ways and have done for years so I'm not really seeing how it's logical or necessary to introduce the idea that Tywin is struggling financially.

 

I agree.

 

It's stupid for the show to outright state that the Lannisters make all their money off of mining gold, they aren't Lord of the Rings style dwarves. That is where they started, no doubt, but they also own the third biggest port city in the Kingdoms, Lannisport (IIRC) is second only to Oldtown and King's Landing in size, and the Westerlands border the Riverlands and the Reach, probably the two biggest suppliers of food and other goods in the Kingdoms. The Lannisters should logically be titans of trade.

 

Unless Tywin is a colossal idiot (and we've obviously seen he is not) he should have started diversifying his interests, especially when the mines started running dry. Even if he's lending (read: giving) money to Robert with no return (also a stupid thing we would never expect Tywin to do) he should be able to keep his coffers full based on the strategic position of his Kingdom.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[benteen]

Tywin isn't the first one who has had his money-making abilities diminished on this show.  Littlefinger was a genius with money, being able to find three gold dragons for every one.  On the show, Tyrion finds out it's only because he's been taking out massive loans from the Iron Bank.  Now, this does make a certain amount of sense since if you want to destroy your enemies (in LF's case, The Crown), destroying their finances with debt is a good way to do it.  But it seems Tywin and LF's money-making abilities have been diminished in order to prop up the Iron Bank.

 

As pointed out, the Westerlands has a great strategic position.  It has one of the Five Cities in Westeros in Lannisport and the Lannisters have a lot of ships.  That should provide them with a soruce of income right there.

 

The idea that the Lannisters gold is running dry isn't an unrealistic idea.  In the books, it's mentioned that the Greatjohn raided three Lannister gold mines when Robb's forces started pillaging the Westerlands.  During the plunder of the Westerlands, their livestock was taken and their coasts were raided.  Add to that the massive costs of running the war and the fact that The Crown has yet to pay back at least three million dragons they loaned out, it's not wrong to assume the war has taken a big chunk out of the Lannister fortune.  If the show has used this, that would have worked a lot better.  But instead, the Lannister gold mines (which on the show is apparently the family's only source of income) dried up about a year before the war.  It just doesn't work.

 

Of course, Tywin could probably make addition money if he actually remarried.  Many lords would throw their daughters at him because of how rich and powerful he is.  Tywin remarrying is never even mentioned as an option and I have a feeling someone would pay for even suggesting that.  I think Tywin truly did love his wife and doesn't want to get remarried.  Although I wonder if some of the aversion of marrying again is the fear of having another dwarf son, making it look like something was wrong with Tywin's genes.  I recall one poster mentioning that while sister marrying isn't something he liked, he did marry a cousin in Joanna.  Maybe Tywin believes that only a Lannister is worthy of him.

Edited June 10, 2014 by benteen

[Andeleisha]

Do you think we'll get a quick P.S at the end of episode 10 (after all the stuff we've to get through) saying: 'By the way, Theon's dad died'.

 

Lol, I've been wondering if the show forgot they had to kill him! Joffrey's been dead for seven episodes, what are they waiting for?? 

[benteen]

Heheh.  I've been wondering this myself.  He's been a complete afterthought for so long.  Him and Mance seem to be in some kind of character limbo.

[Maximum Taco]

Lol, I've been wondering if the show forgot they had to kill him! Joffrey's been dead for seven episodes, what are they waiting for?? 

 

I'm hoping we get it from Ramsay. I want him to tell Theon while he just shovels calamari into his face. Cause he's all about the food symbolism..

[mac123x]

As pointed out, the Westerlands has a great strategic position. It has one of the Five Cities in Westeros in Lannisport and the Lannisters have a lot of ships. That should provide them with a soruce of income right there.

I'm drawing a blank, help me out. King's Landing, Old Town, Lannisport... and? White Harbor, Gulltown?

Do you think we'll get a quick P.S at the end of episode 10 (after all the stuff we've to get through) saying: 'By the way, Theon's dad died'.

And the audience shrugs. "Who? Oh yeah, right." I guess they can work in a scene of Yara getting back tothe Iron Islands to find Euron sitting on the Seastone Chair. Nah, no one would care. Hell, even in-show, Stannis, the man who blood-leech cursed Balon to die, would probably react with "oh, okay. Bigger issues to deal with right now, sorry, I'll get to that later."

[Avaleigh]

I'm wondering if they're trying to make it look like Melisandre is trying to take credit for something that had nothing to do with her leech spell. They had her talk about her potions with Selyse a few episodes back where she's not quite admitting that she is (or can be) a fraud, so I wonder if maybe they're spacing out the deaths to give less credence to the idea that she's as powerful as she says/thinks she is.

The babyshadow thing is impressive admittedly but she's almost a one trick pony apart from her apparent immunity to poison. That or having enough skill to read the flames in order to have already prepared herself with an antidote. I've always been suspicious of how powerful she really is.

OTOH her prediction for Arya seemed to be presented in a way that was meant to be taken as true, so that makes me think the show is going to make her more accurate when it comes to reading the flames than she is in the books

[benteen]

I'm drawing a blank, help me out. King's Landing, Old Town, Lannisport... and? White Harbor, Gulltown?

 

And the audience shrugs. "Who? Oh yeah, right." I guess they can work in a scene of Yara getting back tothe Iron Islands to find Euron sitting on the Seastone Chair. Nah, no one would care. Hell, even in-show, Stannis, the man who blood-leech cursed Balon to die, would probably react with "oh, okay. Bigger issues to deal with right now, sorry, I'll get to that later."

 

 

Yes.  Those are the five cities of Westeros.

[Pete Martell]

Gah, I have the same worry as you right now, Pete Martell, regarding the upcoming Jaime/Cersei scene. At this point I'm basically always worried about what they're doing with Jaime because I feel like they don't get him at all. Actually, it's more of a feeling like sometimes they totally get him and other times not at all so the writing for him feels uneven, plus there's that letdown factor--I feel like they get him in an awesome scene like with Catelyn and then they do something like having him kill his cousin because he "loves killing". It's like wait, what? We can get the awesome tub scene but then we also get something like the rape scene. (Even though I'm trying to pretend the rape scene didn't happen, it's kind of hard when you have Benioff flat out say in the Inside the Episode that it was force. It's like if you see it that way then how were you not writing about it with that in mind and how does it suddenly not effect the writing for those characters later on? I'm still in agreement that it's better to pretend that it didn't happen but with the preview scene I couldn't help but feel worried like they might throw anything at us just for shock value.)

I know there's been a lot of discussion about D&D favoring House Lannister but for me it doesn't really come across as lopsided and I feel like I had the Wtf-are-you-guys-doing? reaction at multiple points in every season particularly when it comes to Jamie's character but also sometimes with Tyrion, and Tywin. With Cersei, when they include moments like the Pycelle/kennels comment, I feel like the showrunners basically get her at the end of the day so I don't have any big complaints about her characterization or portrayal.

IMO we never got to see what an incredible swordsman Jaime was and it's still a huge gripe for me that we didn't get one scene to show, really show, how fucking good he was. That little display with Jory was only the tip of the iceberg. One of a thousand reasons for why the first season called for 12 episodes to be done properly. If I could have had just one extra scene added to s1 it would probably be one of Jaime taking out multiple Northmen before finally being taken down only because the numbers were impossible.

With Tyrion I agree with the comments about how he has been white washed (it's especially noticeable in the way they portrayed his marriage to Sansa and his relationship with Cersei) and also agree that the proof that something has gone terribly wrong in his characterization is demonstrated by the fact that loads of Unsullied to see him as the so-called moral center of the show. To me though this doesn't come across as the showrunners being hopelessly biased in favor of House Lannister as much as it comes across as making changes and characterization choices that are taking away from significant complexities that I feel GRRM established in the book. (I also haven't noticed viewers seeming like they're more pro-Lannister than they arguably should be.)At the end of the day I don't know that a lot of the changes made did anything to enhance House Lannister or make it more interesting.

The hint of Tyrion's monstrous side just isn't apparent to me on the show whereas in the books I felt like I saw flashes of that side of him in the first three books prior to the murder of Shae. While I was still shocked it seemed plausible that Tyrion was in a dark, murderous, blind rage. With the Light Tyrion they've given us on the show, I fully expect plenty of cries of this Sunday from those who are finding it hard to swallow that kind, funny Tyrion who has even repeatedly been shown to have sympathy for Cersei, had it in him to kill the woman he loved.

 

What will bother me is I'm pretty sure a lot of fans will just say Shae was a "bitch" who "deserved it," even though, as you said, the narrative has done little to explain why he would react this way.

 

Until this season, the few hints they've had of Tyrion's dark side have always felt overly theatrical to me, not real. This season, I do think Dinklage has sold some of the darkness, like his rant at the trial, and then the way he just absolutely broke when Oberyn told him what Cersei had done to him as a baby. I wish we'd had more of this in earlier seasons.

 

Sometimes the Cersei characterization is astonishingly good. Then I realize that the best Cersei material often seems to be GRRM episodes. D&D and Cogman have a more mixed track record for me. On the one hand, they take away some of her more negative moments, but they still keep enough to where she's just an object of easy fan hate, only now without the POV to help balance this out. 

 

Overall I'd still say I prefer her characterization this season to last season, as that was too much of the angry mother mode, but the sept scene was so damaging to her and silenced so much of the relationship that helps define her. From now on I don't think I can ever deal with a Jaime/Cersei scene. And the whole thing creates a lack of trust, because episodes like "First of His Name", I thought they did a good job of showing Cersei manipulating various people to get her way. Yet, viewers were so used to OOC writing that many fans seemed to think the show was trying to say this was actually who she was.

 

I think D&D enjoyed writing for the Lannister family bickerfest. The hilarious dysfunction of it all. They really expanded on this in season 3, you could tell they got a kick out of it, and for the most part I think it worked. The problem is this family isn't hilarious, it's toxic, and horribly damaging and self-destructive. And when it came time to take away cartoon villain Joffrey and actually write (relatively) real people, the wheels came off. 

 

I've seen fans say things like, "I only care about Jaime when he's not with the Lannisters," and it just shows the writing fail this season, because they spent 2 full seasons preparing us for what he should have been when he finally reunited with them.

[Holmbo]

The hint of Tyrion's monstrous side just isn't apparent to me on the show whereas in the books I felt like I saw flashes of that side of him in the first three books prior to the murder of Shae. While I was still shocked it seemed plausible that Tyrion was in a dark, murderous, blind rage. With the Light Tyrion they've given us on the show, I fully expect plenty of cries of this Sunday from those who are finding it hard to swallow that kind, funny Tyrion who has even repeatedly been shown to have sympathy for Cersei, had it in him to kill the woman he loved.

 

Generally I actually like the changes done to Tyrion in the show. Book and show Tyrion are two different characters really but I enjoy both of them and think they work well in their different medium.

But show runners should understand that changing Tyrion they can not have him act the same as book Tyrion and expect it to automatically make sense. It could still be believable that show Tyrion could snap and kill Shae IMO but her betrayal would have to be worse than in the book. The motivation for her actions would have to be something more than trying to save her own skin for Tyrion to snap and kill her. The problem is the show hasn't given any good reason for why Shae would do this. They seem to have gone with her being agry at Tyrion but I can't see this being a motivation for her to sleep with Tywin.

 

So I agree that there is a big risk many viewers will see it all as cheap shock value. Specially since it doesn't actually drive the plot in any way. The show could easily skip Tyrion killing Shae and his plot could still go exactly the same as in the book.

[Hecate7]

I hope the question of Aegon or fAegon is left unanswered, frankly, just for the fun of the mystery.  I lean towards fake, because I see Varys wanting to start with a clean slate to avoid the high chance of inbred crazy. 

 

However, I'm unconvinced by any arguments about it being important that the baby's head was smashed or that the exact shade of hair had to be obscured by blood. It was probably convenient for Varys, but what exactly where they going to do even if the baby was just stabbed?  Compare it to the many recent photographs of Prince Aegon lying around? Ask for verification from his undoubtedly dead nurse or other dead servants?  Had anyone in Robert's court or the Lannister forces, besides Jaime (unlikely to have paid much attention), ever even seen the baby?  Certainly none of them had seen him (again, besides Jaime) in close to a year, at the very least, during the Rebellion.  Newborns are relatively indistinguishable at any rate, for people who aren't close to them. 

It is still a lot more likely that Aegon is fake, because if you can smuggle a baby out of there you could also smuggle the 5 year old girl.

 The problem is the show hasn't given any good reason for why Shae would do this. They seem to have gone with her being agry at Tyrion but I can't see this being a motivation for her to sleep with Tywin.

As Shae would put it, she doesn't need a motivation, she's a whore, remember? The motivation that I can't fathom here, is Tywin's. Why Shae? Why Tyrion's leftovers, when he could have anyone, anyone at all? It didn't quite make sense in the book, either, and left me thinking the affair was not new, because Tywin would be more comfortable giving his leavings to Tyrion, than the other way around.

[that one guy]

But show runners should understand that changing Tyrion they can not have him act the same as book Tyrion and expect it to automatically make sense. It could still be believable that show Tyrion could snap and kill Shae IMO but her betrayal would have to be worse than in the book. The motivation for her actions would have to be something more than trying to save her own skin for Tyrion to snap and kill her. The problem is the show hasn't given any good reason for why Shae would do this. They seem to have gone with her being agry at Tyrion but I can't see this being a motivation for her to sleep with Tywin.

 

My prediction is that viewers and reviewers are going to freak out again if they don't realize how tone deaf that plot point is, and change it. TV Tyrion IS a different character, a much more likable one. TV Shae is a character, period, unlike her book counterpart who is a thin cipher. And yet it was bad enough in the book - killing your ex girlfriend is just not okay. Killing your dad when he's an evil dictator is understandable under some circumstances, but killing your ex-girlfriend is no good. For TV Tyrion to kill TV Shae would be as out of character as TV Jaime raping his sister. If I were in charge of the adaptation, I would just have Tywin hang her like he'd previously threatened to do. But I'm not in charge, so they'll probably go ahead and have Tyrion murder a powerless pawn who was just trying to stay alive, and who obviously loved him, and then they will be shocked that the audience is pissed. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it. If they go through with it, it will be the series' second big mis-step, again based on sexual politics. 

[Maximum Taco]

It is still a lot more likely that Aegon is fake, because if you can smuggle a baby out of there you could also smuggle the 5 year old girl.

 

I don't know about that argument.

 

Remember that according to the story, Aegon wasn't smuggled out right away. Varys made the switch, hid him away, possibly in the Red Keep itself, it's been shown he knows a lot of places everyone else doesn't, and then smuggled him across the Narrow Sea after the heat had died down and nobody was looking for Aegon, because Aegon was dead at the hands of Gregor Clegane.

 

Also they could have smuggled Rhaenys out, but they'd have to find a girl that looked similar to her (which would've been a 5 year old with Dornish colouring, not quite as rare as a Targ, but still probably not common.) Tywin (and I'm sure many other people like Pycelle and Jaime) would have been able to pick Rhaenys out of a lineup, maybe not so much with baby Aegon (definitely not after he had been savaged by Ser Gregor.) and if they didn't kill Rhaenys right away you would need a girl who could and would play the part of Rhaenys. You ask a five year old who they are, and they could tell you their name, you ask a baby and he's gonna sit there and gurgle. If they discovered the Rhaenys they found was fake, they'd suspect Aegon was as well and they wouldn't have given up searching for him, making escape across the Narrow Sea much harder.

 

Also if Rhaegar was the one who ordered the switch you might posit that he simply cared more for Aegon, he did think Aegon was the Prince that was Promised after all. If all he was thinking about was the prophecy (which might hold true to Rhaegar's character) he might have only ordered Varys to save Aegon, or he might have told them that Aegon's safety came first, even if that meant Rhaenys would die.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Minneapple]

I recall in the "Inside the Episode" segment for the episode for the cousin-killing episode, Weiss said that they wanted that scene to remind audiences that Jaime is "a monster who loves killing."  I'm pretty sure that's what she said and that shows they have no understanding on who the character is.

Seriously? That's awful.

 

I agree the show is taking an enormous risk with Tyrion killing Shae (if that's what happens). The show characters haven't been set up enough for it to happen organically. It was even quite shocking in the books, and those characters were quite different. I do wonder if Tyrion will tell Jaime that he killed Joffrey and the repercussions from that.

 

And I want Tyrion to say a line similar to "Cersei is a lying whore, she's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know." I love how Jaime is tormented by that line.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Minneapple

[BlackberryJam]

Wanted to weigh in on Lightbringer/Nissa Nissa. There are very few important swords on the show right now. Really, we've got Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, which Jaime seems to have at Tommen's crowning.

I read this theory on Lightbringer.

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1ds3j0/spoilers_all_brienne_and_the_forging_prophecy/

Scree on Reddit.

When speculating on the nature of the weapon Lightbringer, I think people have fallen into the trap of only considering what the sword IS, whether if the flaming sword is in the hands of Stannis but merely incomplete or if it is only a metaphor for the Night's Watch (Jon) or Dragons (Dany). While focusing on the IS allows many possibilities, looking at the HOW allows just one. The only weapon that both matches the prophecy 1 to 1 so far and has the potential to fully fulfill the prophecy is the sword Oathkeeper.

1 - Forged in water as Eddard's greatsword Ice.

2 - Reforged in a lion's breast as the Lannister sword Oathkeeper.

3 - This is the part that is speculation, but I am very confident in it, Brienne will be forced to drive Oathkeeper into Catelyn Tully's (the wife of the swords' original owner) heart and thus shatter both her own oaths and her swords' name. When she pulls the sword out it will inherit the flame passed down from R'hllor to Beric and from Beric to Catelyn, and burst into flames as the sword Lightbringer

Water, Lion, Wife - if Brienne kills Catelyn then the prophecy is matched word for word. This does not necessarily mean that Brienne is THE Azor Ahai, but she will be the sword's forger.

edit: I'm flattered by all of the attention this theory is getting. Just to clarify, I do believe it is possible that there are multiple Lightbringers, much like there could be multiple Azor Ahai's, but Oathkeeper is the only sword that seems to have the potential to fulfil all the prerequsites - I can't see how Dany's dragons were forged in Water or shattered in a lion's breast'.

'Reforged in a lion's breast' could mean Brienne stabs Jamie as well, but I don't want Jamie to die, so I like to think the Lannisters ordering Ice to be shattered and reforged fulfiled that part of the prophecy. Also, I can't think of a sensible plotline where Brienne kills Jamie and then Catelyn, whereas her stabbing Catelyn to save Jamie (breaking her oaths, fulfiling the purely thematic destiny of her taking on Jamie's position as fallen knight while he rises into honor as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.) is very, very probable.

I think Jaime is one of the few characters who has crossed different stories. He's had scenes with Jon Snow (which ties in the Wall story), the Starks, the Boltons, and Tullys as well history with the Targaryens and the Baratheons and he's a Lannister. His story hasn't been limited in location and contacts. Unlike say Cersei, she has been connected to Starks and King's Landing, nothing else. Jon Snow has interaction with Starks and the Wall, brief interaction with Tyrion. Dany is way out doing her own thing. Jaime, as a character, can bring these stories together. (Tyrion can also do this as he's had multiple cross story interactions, but Tyrion is not connected to a sword. Jaime is.)

That make me think Jaime has a bigger role to play. Jaime goes through a real change. Initially, he's all "I'll kill children just to fuck Cersei" but by the time he's doing his Riverlands campaign, he's "no rapin', no senseless murderin'." The last we've seen of him, he's ignored Cersei's letter and gone off with Brienne for the sake of honor.

That makes me think that Jaime, if not Nissa Nissa himself, will end up with Brienne, who will forge Lightbringer by killing Catelyn, taking the sword to Jon Snow who is AA. Jaime will leave behind all that is Lannister, including Cersei, to fulfill this quest. That will be his story. Will he survive after? Who knows.

Edited June 13, 2014 by BlackberryJam

[benteen]

TV Tyrion doesn't have a hint of darkness in him at all.  I used to joke on TWOP that I expect Shae to strangle herself to death while Tyrion watches helplessly and cries.  The few times we've seen a darker (angrier) side of Tyrion includes him drunk at his wedding and when he lashed out at the people in the throne room during his trial.  Dinklage did great with those scenes and I wish we would get a darker Tyrion on this show.  As pointed out, his strangling of Shae is going to come out of left field if D and D can let their beloved saint actually do that.

 

Audiences aren't going to have a problem with Tyrion killing Tywin...they know Tywin has had it coming for a long time.  If the Tysha story is revealed (Tyrion did directly bring up his first marriage to Tywin last season although it's been kept in the background since Season 1) they'll sympathize with him even more.

[lawless]

That makes me think that Jaime, if not Nissa Nissa himself, will end up with Brienne, who will forge Lightbringer by killing Catelyn, taking the sword to Jon Snow who is AA.  Jaime will leave behind all that is Lannister, including Cersei, to fulfill this quest.  That will be his story.  Will he survive after?  Who knows.

This would be great.  I have come to love Jaime, but in the last book(s) his storyline and character development didn't really go anywhere.  He was alienated from Cersei, but was also pretty much doing pro- crown, pro-Lannister work.  I really hope he's more significant to the larger story with the White Walkers, and I also hope he someday meets Dany.  The Books briefly mentioned that when young, he really looked up to Rhaegar and wanted to fight for him, and he's the man who killed the last Targaryen King.  Those are significant pieces of history, and he happens to be one of the few men involved in Robert's Rebellion who is still alive and relatively young.  I hope he isn't just killed off by Lady Stoneheart to make Brienne sad and realize she should have broken her stupid oath.

 

I'm with Jaime on the oaths.  I value honor, but you have to use your head sometimes, and be open to contingencies. 

[BlackberryJam]

I think that Jaime's story will be one that brings the other major players together, but I think his survival is up in the air.  Everyone wants to kill him.  Dany, the Stark contingent, Tyrion, the Tullys, Lady Stoneheart and eventually Cersei.  The only person who wants Jaime alive is Brienne I think.

 

Sure, it would be GRRM like to let him live.  Like I fully expect Walder Frey to be alive in the end as well.  Still, most families can unite in their desire to have Jaime dead.

 

If Jaime's role in the big picture is to get Lightbringer to AA, that gives him real story, has him choose honor over family and tie story togeher.  One of the big issues I have is that so many of these stories are separate from each other.  They need to come together in the end.  Although really, Dany could stay in Meereen.  Whatever.  She bores me.

 

 

[benteen]

About Walder Frey...several villains have gotten deaths.  The Mountain got the death he deserved, Joffrey got killed, Tywin died in an embarrassing way.  It wouldn't surprise me if Walder also dies but somehow I could see him either dying of old age before anyone gets to him.  Honestly, the most fitting punishment for him would be to castrate him with a dull knife...his greatest power and joy was having sex and reproducing.

 

Littlefinger might be another one who gets away with it.  If I had to choose a death for him though, it wouldn't be Sansa killing him.  I'd like to see Sansa defeat him and somehow turn him over to Lady Stoneheart.  That would be a fitting punishment for him.  Reading about his pissing his pants in fear as he realizes his silver tongue and charm won't get him out of this one.  I doubt it will happen but one can always hope.

[Minneapple]

That makes me think that Jaime, if not Nissa Nissa himself, will end up with Brienne, who will forge Lightbringer by killing Catelyn, taking the sword to Jon Snow who is AA.  Jaime will leave behind all that is Lannister, including Cersei, to fulfill this quest.  That will be his story.  Will he survive after?  Who knows.

I love this Jaime speculation! Speculation about Jaime usually revolves around Cersei, it'd be great if he had something to do that didn't involve her. I don't quite think he's a safe character -- he could die to complete his redemption arc somehow and I think that would be a fitting end for him.

 

I have come to love Jaime, but in the last book(s) his storyline and character development didn't really go anywhere.  He was alienated from Cersei, but was also pretty much doing pro- crown, pro-Lannister work.

 

I actually disagree with this, I think Jaime's character undergoes enormous upheaval in AFFC. He feels like half a man. He's trying to come to terms with losing his sword hand, with losing Cersei, he's trying to figure out why Cersei has become so crazed when in reality he's the one who's changing, not Cersei. And though he's doing Lannister work, he's negotiating terms and strategizing and doing it quite well. Also, though he was separated from Cersei after being captured by the Stark forces, he was still trying to make his way back to her. In AFFC, he's moving away from her -- first mentally, then physically. And he burns her letter. It's also notable, symbolically, that he's opened the windows to let the snow in and sits there in the cold while reading the letter.

[Lady S.]

I'd say Cersei changes too, she does go off the deep end after Joff's death. And she'd always wanted Tyrion dead but never so maniacally and never needing Jaime to agree with her, that was really the first crack in their relationship. Before that he'd always been able to love and protect Tyrion and Cersei and they'd more or less respected that in him. Jaime having to choose between them is another way he's forced to start thinking more and become his own man.

 

Something interesting in their ASoS scenes is that she only starts in on his lack of hand after he rejects her bj in White Sword tower. Perhaps she could have forgiven his swordhand loss if he'd still been doing what she wanted. And perhaps if he didn't already have doubts about her love, his response to learning about her faithlessness when he was gone would just be to fuck her til he was sure she'd forgotten other men existed. Things with Cersei did become different because of her changes, not his imo, so by AFfC he's retreating from a relationship that's already thoroughly a train wreck. It's not that he no longer cares about Cersei, but he knows he can't save her, and is not even sure he wants to because he doubts she ever loved him. If he had come back with everything the same on Cersei's end, I'm not sure anything would have really changed with him.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Lady S.

[Advance35]

I'm also of the thought that both Littlefinger and Walder Frey will be around in the end.   Walder Frey because in all honesty, he's already won.   He always wanted someone from his line to be elevated to one of the Great Houses, specifically House Tully and he has that.   His Grandchild will be heir to The Riverlands, Edmure is in love with Roslyn, he'll never give her up or set her aside or disinherit their child, so however things shake out Walder will have gotten what he wanted.   Granted he paid a high price for it but at 90 something I doubt he cares.   He manage to murder his family into the top 7.

 

Littlefinger always survives.   ALWAYS.  I can even pinpoint why but I see him living through everything that's coming.

[mac123x]

I recall in the "Inside the Episode" segment for the episode for the cousin-killing episode, Weiss said that they wanted that scene to remind audiences that Jaime is "a monster who loves killing."  I'm pretty sure that's what she said and that shows they have no understanding on who the character is.

They haven’t written him that way in other parts of the show.  He likes fighting, not killing. 

 

1. He didn’t kill Ned Stark after an extra stabbed him through the leg because, as he tells Tywin, “it wouldn’t have been clean”. 

 

2. His attempted murder of Bran, despicable as it was, had a point: to cover up the twincest. 

 

3. He killed cousin Alton as part of an escape plan. 

 

4. He killed (off screen) 10 or during the battle of Whispering Woods, but that was because he was trying to kill Robb, which would have ended the war.

 

5.  He killed Aerys to prevent the murder of half a million people.

 

Every time he’s killed it’s been for a reason, none of which were “he likes the killin’.”

[Winnief]

 

About Walder Frey...several villains have gotten deaths.  The Mountain got the death he deserved, Joffrey got killed, Tywin died in an embarrassing way.  It wouldn't surprise me if Walder also dies but somehow I could see him either dying of old age before anyone gets to him.  Honestly, the most fitting punishment for him would be to castrate him with a dull knife...his greatest power and joy was having sex and reproducing.

 

Actually, I think the most fitting punishment for Walder would be to see his brood slaughtered and be left alone without help to survive in the Twins for the winter-or that the Frey's lose the Twins and have to go out and try to make a living on their own.  Poor little weasels!

 

 

I actually disagree with this, I think Jaime's character undergoes enormous upheaval in AFFC. He feels like half a man. He's trying to come to terms with losing his sword hand, with losing Cersei, he's trying to figure out why Cersei has become so crazed when in reality he's the one who's changing, not Cersei. And though he's doing Lannister work, he's negotiating terms and strategizing and doing it quite well. Also, though he was separated from Cersei after being captured by the Stark forces, he was still trying to make his way back to her. In AFFC, he's moving away from her -- first mentally, then physically. And he burns her letter. It's also notable, symbolically, that he's opened the windows to let the snow in and sits there in the cold while reading the letter.

Agreed.  I would argue it's not just about Jaime separating himself from Cersei though, but the whole Lannister identity-at least the way Tywin understood that identity.  Jaime is reflecting with great bitterness that Tywin's precious legacy was ultimately one of the deaths of tens of thousands and his disgust at the Red Wedding and being allies with the likes of the Frey's and Bolton's is palpable. It's pretty obvious that Jaime is reacting in part to the fact that he found the RW to be an atrocity-he loves fighting but that wasn't fighting it was a cold-blooded, deliberate mass slaughter that violated the oldest and most sacred taboo in Westeros, (and by weakening the principle of guest right, the plotters behind the RW endangered everybody because they wounded the foundation of diplomacy in the Seven Kingdoms.)  The clear subtext when other characters like Edmure and the Blackfish heaped scorn and contempt on Jaime is that deep down he sort of understood their views-he personally wasn't guilty-at least not in that matter- but he sure didn't feel proud of being a Golden Lion anymore. He hasn't just had it with Cersei-he's had it with his family's whole underhandedness, brutality, and general suckitude.  One of the things characterizing his anger about Cersei was anger at himself for everything he'd done for Cersei-like with him reflecting to Illyn Payne how Cersei sent him to retaliate against Arya after Nymeria bit Joffrey-and how he would have done it if Ned's men hadn't found her first.  

 

If Jaime's role in the big picture is to get Lightbringer to AA, that gives him real story, has him choose honor over family and tie story togeher.  One of the big issues I have is that so many of these stories are separate from each other.  They need to come together in the end.  Although really, Dany could stay in Meereen.  Whatever.  She bores me.

I love the theory that Oathkeeper could be Lightbringer.  It would be great for Jaime's redemption arc, it ties things together with the Riverland and LSH into the larger metaphysical story, and it would make us all feel a LOT better about Ice being melted down.  

[Avaleigh]

I think Littlefinger has to have a special death in store for him. Of all the thingstthat would let me down that one is definitely high on the list. I just can't decide what I'd most like to see. Does he deserve to be taken out by an Other? Lady Stoneheart? A dragon? Moon Door? A sword through the heart by Arya? Beheading in front of the mob like Ned? All sound appealing quite frankly. The main point for me is that I want him to go through some kind of terror where he's either pleading, crying, pissing himself, running like his life depends on it---as long as he's scared I'll be happy. Lady Stoneheart might very well frighten him the most, IDK.

In terms of the more villainous people in the story I think the "special" deaths should also include Ramsay and Ser Robert Strong. Ramsay would get the Vargo Hoat treatment if it were up to me only Jeyne would have first dibs. I'm normally not an advocate of torture but Ramsay is a special case Imho. I want that asshole to pay.

Ser Robert Strong's death should be interesting since it'll probably take something more than skillful swordmanship and I wonder how GRRM will incorporate that with the Hound taking him out, if that ends up happening.

I want Walder Frey to die, but I want him to die last during RW2.0

Edited June 11, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Carrie Ann]

I think Littlefinger has to have a special death in store for him. Of all the thingstthat would let me down that one is definitely high on the list. I just can't decide what I'd most like to see. Does he deserve to be taken out by an Other? Lady Stoneheart? A dragon? Moon Door? A sword through the heart by Arya? Beheading in front of the mob like Ned? All sound appealing quite frankly. The main point for me is that I want him to go through some kind of terror where he's either pleading, crying, pissing himself, running like his life depends on it---as long as he's scared I'll be happy. Lady Stoneheart might very well frighten him the most, IDK.

 

I'd definitely accept death by Lady S or Arya, but I want Sansa involved somehow. I don't relish the idea of her becoming a killer, but Petyr has icky intentions when it comes to her, and if any of those come to fruition, I want her to get some of her power back.

[benteen]

About Walder, Winnief is right.  The destruction of his House would hurt him the most (although there are so many Freys I don't see how all of them could be killed).  Destroy his House and THEN castrate him.  That would be the most fitting punishment.

 

Agreed with Avaleigh that if Littlefinger gets killed, I want him to feel fear and terror before he dies.  To me, Lady Stoneheart would be the ultimate sense of his plotting biting him in the ass and it would be revenge that UnCat deserves (although she and the rest of the North don't seem to know about LF's betrayel). I think if Littlefinger realizes just how screwed he is, he will turn into the scared, pathetic, crying little baby-boy that he truly is.  I want Sansa to play a role in it but I want her to bring LF to Stoneheart for justice.  Though the likelihood of that happening is slim.

Edited June 11, 2014 by benteen

[BlackberryJam]

Oh, if we are working out ways to kill Littlefinger, can I suggest he has to fuck Lady Stoneheart the way he fucked Lysa Arryn? And during the fucking, she sucks the life from him.

Uhm. So, totally gross but he's always wanted Catelyn.

[benteen]

It would be just desserts, as disturbing as it is.

Season5...Alys Karstark. I doubt this storyline will make it to the show. It would tie Jon further to what is going on in the North (and the Karstarks were established pretty well on the show) but the issues with the Boltons will already do that. But in case they actually do the Alys storyline, I think we can say she won't be marrying the Magnar of Thenn. Jon's not going to give her away to some cannibal. Is it possible that he gives her to Tormund instead? In the books, Tormund wasn't captured and led what was left of Mance's army before making peace with Jon. On the show he's been captured and is pissed off at Jon. Perhaps offering to marry him to Alys is a goodwill gesture on Jon's part.

Edited June 11, 2014 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

I hope they keep the Alys plot and since the Unsullied are already familiar with the Karstarks it doesn't have to come across as filler. Like the Tormund suggestion too.

The other reason I want them to keep Alys is that it's a good chance for the Unsullied to see Melisandre be wrong about something she sees in the flames.

Val is the one I can't see making it at this point and that's a shame because I was looking forward to seeing her interact with Selyse and Shireen. Thinking about this reminds me about the loss of Patchface and Melisandre's comment about how he's dangerous. I wonder if the danger she saw in him will be transferred over to Shireen?

Re: Littlefinger and Lady Stoneheart---

I'd be fine with having her force a kiss on him. That would just be creepy and dementor-ish.

I think it's also important that there are people around during Littlefinger's death. Ideally a mix of those he knows he's fucked over and those he thinks he can still bend to his will. Alternating between begging and attempting to give some lame ass command that he knows won't be followed would be nice to see too. Viserys's death worked for me for these reasons and others.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Minneapple]

I'd say Cersei changes too, she does go off the deep end after Joff's death. And she'd always wanted Tyrion dead but never so maniacally and never needing Jaime to agree with her, that was really the first crack in their relationship. 

 

 

I agree to a point. I mean, yeah she changes, but I think it's only the path that was set up for her. She's always been paranoid and untrusting, seeking power where she can (like having only Jaime's kids which not only is her silent revenge on Robert, but also allows her to put a 100 percent Lannister on the throne). Joffrey's death sends her over the edge because she starts to become more and more haunted by the prophecy and how it's coming true -- and that of course drives her need to have Tyrion dead, because she thinks he's the valonqar. So these are not so much real changes in Cersei as they are her traits becoming more exaggerated.

 

Jaime on the other hand goes down a different path than the one he started on. The Jaime who pushed a child out of a window would never have gone back to help Brienne escape the bear. Probably wouldn't have helped Tyrion escape and definitely wouldn't have confessed the truth about Tysha. 

 

Re: Littlefinger's death. As gross as our speculation can be, how much grosser will it actually be? GRRM has a sick, sick mind.

[Andeleisha]

As Shae would put it, she doesn't need a motivation, she's a whore, remember? The motivation that I can't fathom here, is Tywin's. Why Shae? Why Tyrion's leftovers, when he could have anyone, anyone at all? It didn't quite make sense in the book, either, and left me thinking the affair was not new, because Tywin would be more comfortable giving his leavings to Tyrion, than the other way around.

 

So I see a lot of people saying that they don't understand Shae's motivation for betraying Tyrion. Since it looks like Shae is going to be found in Tywin's bed and Tyrion will thus kill her, I do hope the show gives us something more so that the audience is emotionally satisfied. 

 

But I just gotta say, has no one here ever been a scorned teenage girl?! Lol. I remember feeling powerfully irrational spite towards ex boyfriends (well, some of them anyway) even into my early twenties. I can totally empathize with Show Shae, who fell in love with Tyrion despite herself, and was so insecure she imagined she saw Tyrion falling in love with Sansa even when there was nothing there. Her paranoia drove her to act irrationally despite the danger Tyrion warned her of, and it ultimately drove Tyrion away. She feels like Tyrion rejected her and confirmed all of her worst fears. She's so hurt and angry that she can't think clearly. She just wants to hurt him in any way she can. 

 

Cersei approaches her about testifying? I bet she JUMPED on it. Yeah, it'll save her life, but more importantly, she can get back at Tyrion by humiliating him publicly. He doesn't want to be with her anymore? She'll just give the testimony that condemns him to death and THEN he'll be sorry. ::shakes fist:: She's so pissed and eager to prove she's winning this break-up, she's going to fuck his father. See if he can top THAT. 

 

(Tyrion strangling her probably wasn't quite what she was expecting, which is one of the many reasons acting out of spite is a terrible idea, and most people grow out of those kinds of hysterical reactions.) 

 

Wanted to weight in on Lightbringer/Nissa Nissa.  There are very few important swords on the show right now.  Really, we've got Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, which Jaime seems to have at Tommen's crowning.

 

I read this theory on Lightbringer.

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1ds3j0/spoilers_all_brienne_and_the_forging_prophecy/

 

When speculating on the nature of the weapon Lightbringer, I think people have fallen into the trap of only considering what the sword IS, whether if the flaming sword is in the hands of Stannis but merely incomplete or if it is only a metaphor for the Night's Watch (Jon) or Dragons (Dany). While focusing on the IS allows many possibilities, looking at the HOW allows just one. The only weapon that both matches the prophecy 1 to 1 so far and has the potential to fully fulfill the prophecy is the sword Oathkeeper.

1 - Forged in water as Eddard's greatsword Ice.

2 - Reforged in a lion's breast as the Lannister sword Oathkeeper.

3 - This is the part that is speculation, but I am very confident in it, Brienne will be forced to drive Oathkeeper into Catelyn Tully's (the wife of the swords' original owner) heart and thus shatter both her own oaths and her swords' name. When she pulls the sword out it will inherit the flame passed down from R'hllor to Beric and from Beric to Catelyn, and burst into flames as the sword Lightbringer

Water, Lion, Wife - if Brienne kills Catelyn then the prophecy is matched word for word. This does not necessarily mean that Brienne is THE Azor Ahai, but she will be the sword's forger.

 

 

 

This is a frickin AWESOME theory. I had no idea anything good came out of Reddit, I thought it was all dick jokes and rape threats. Does anyone else have any other recommendations for good forums to discuss ASOIAF? 

[debi49]

I am wondering if they will include the Fake Arya story, tho I'm also not sure how they leave it out. I couldn't read the Reek chapters in Book 5 it was so disturbing. And after the outcry from the Jaime/Cersei rape scene, I wonder if Ramsey, a guy who makes Joffery looks warm and fuzzy, sexually/physically/mentally abusing a 12 year old girl, a stand in Arya no less, might be a bridge to0 far for viewers.

[Maximum Taco]

I am wondering if they will include the Fake Arya story, tho I'm also not sure how they leave it out. I couldn't read the Reek chapters in Book 5 it was so disturbing. And after the outcry from the Jaime/Cersei rape scene, I wonder if Ramsey, a guy who makes Joffery looks warm and fuzzy, sexually/physically/mentally abusing a 12 year old girl, a stand in Arya no less, might be a bridge to0 far for viewers.

 

I think they need to stick with the Fake Arya story.

 

How else will they trigger the Battle of Winterfell? Or Jon's men turning on him? Fake Arya is a big part of those storylines.

 

I do think they'll tone it down, probably a lot. I mean there is some truly just disturbing stuff in those chapters that I don't think will make it past even the most liberal of censors.

[Winnief]

 

 

I am wondering if they will include the Fake Arya story, tho I'm also not sure how they leave it out. I couldn't read the Reek chapters in Book 5 it was so disturbing. And after the outcry from the Jaime/Cersei rape scene, I wonder if Ramsey, a guy who makes Joffery looks warm and fuzzy, sexually/physically/mentally abusing a 12 year old girl, a stand in Arya no less, might be a bridge to0 far for viewers.

I think they need to stick with the Fake Arya story.

How else will they trigger the Battle of Winterfell? Or Jon's men turning on him? Fake Arya is a big part of those storylines.

I do think they'll tone it down, probably a lot. I mean there is some truly just disturbing stuff in those chapters that I don't think will make it past even the most liberal of censors.

 

Personally I hope they don't include fake Arya because 

 

a.  I consider if filler and confusing to the plot.  You can easily have other things to prompt the Battle of Winterfell including the discovery Rickon is still alive which would rally the North behind him.  Having a fake Stark heir roaming around just further muddies up an already complicated season.  Same reason, I would argue they shouldn't include fAegon.

b.  It is as you say BEYOND disturbing and after everything this season, I'm not sure how much more relentless graphic abuse of women anyone in Viewerland can take-Cersei's Walk of Shame will be tough enough as is.  And this is abuse to a MINOR for Seven's Sakes.  

 

However, the one reason I could see for them including Fake Arya would be that it prompts Theon's escape-he was doing it for her rather than himself.  But I suppose we could just have Theon rescuing some other girl taken prisoner by the Boltons before Ramsay can put her in one of his 'hunts.' Especially if it was a girl he'd met while being a ward of the Starks.  Or they could have Theon fall into Stannis's hands some other way.

[Skeeter22]

Based on the show's history of reveling in sexualized violence, I wouldn't be surprised if we got an aged-up fake Arya. I would prefer they didn't include it at all, but they might keep it so Theon can have his redemption story.

[Winnief]

 

Based on the show's history of reveling in sexualized violence, I wouldn't be surprised if we got an aged-up fake Arya. I would prefer they didn't include it at all, but they might keep it so Theon can have his redemption story.

 

You might be right-even if Ramsay's new bride isn't a fake Arya but possibly some noblewoman he's using to consolidate his position, (ala the Lady Hornwood situation only younger.)  Not crazy about the idea but at least we'd get some more great acting from Alfie Allen who I feel is one of the under appreciated treasures of the show.

[Pete Martell]

I am wondering if they will include the Fake Arya story, tho I'm also not sure how they leave it out. I couldn't read the Reek chapters in Book 5 it was so disturbing. And after the outcry from the Jaime/Cersei rape scene, I wonder if Ramsey, a guy who makes Joffery looks warm and fuzzy, sexually/physically/mentally abusing a 12 year old girl, a stand in Arya no less, might be a bridge to0 far for viewers.

 

I'd think they almost have to include it, but I do wonder how much they will alter.

 

Other than the woman Ramsay and his servant hunted and killed in The Lion and the Rose, they've been extremely low-key about his other non-Reek violations. They pointedly chose to show him having what seemed to be consensual sex with a woman. 

 

Unless they are trying to shock non-book followers with his true depravity, I think a lot is going to be toned down. I wonder if instead of her being sexually assaulted, it's going to be about the impending threat of this happening, and that's why Theon escapes with her.