Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Hecate7]

Jon Snow wasn't left in her care.  He was Ned's responsibility, and whatever nurses Ned engaged.

 

Nobody would ever expect a woman to look after the children her husband had while cheating on her.  Indeed, today we'd generally expect Catelyn to divorce him.

 

Not really true. Generally women ARE expected to look after the other woman's children, sooner or later. Men are expected to pitch a hissy fit and get all righteous and melodramatic about raising another man's children, and generally treat children as byproducts, but at some point you have to get down to the business of living and recognize children as human beings, as opposed to just being physical evidence that a sex act occurred at some point in time.

 

Catelyn would not have chosen to leave Ned. It is sick to punish a child for an adult's behavior, particularly when you elect to forgive the adult, but still punish the child. Catelyn may have been average and ordinary in this regard, but average and ordinary in this case is sick and twisted.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

Not really true. Generally women ARE expected to look after the other woman's children, sooner or later.

Um, when?

 

Generally, when your husband cheats in this day and age, you divorce him.  You are not expected to have anything to do with his "new" family, unless you want to. You're certainly not expected to raise him.  Some women may decide to forgive, etc., but they aren't obligated.  And there is zero expectation of this in Westeros either, where Ned raising his bastard at home is seen by all as a huge insult to his wife (the only men who do this, other than Ned, are people like Lord Walder Frey and King Aegon IV, whose attitudes toward their wives speak for themselves).

 

Bringing up that some women in the modern day choose to forgive and raise this kid is really not relevant, because Catelyn does not have that choice.  Jon is in her life entirely against her consent, which only serves to remind her that in Westeros' misogynist culture she has very little control over her own life and household.  All she can do, ultimately, is protest this intrusion by carrying on her life as best she can without acknowledging the insult Ned has done her.

 

Is this an unfortunate situation for all involved?  Absolutely.  But Catelyn is not acting unreasonably, and I find it remarkable how many people are willing to blame her for not doing something we would never expect any woman today to do.

[Constantinople]

Because people are more than simply byproducts of sex, and because Catelyn is supposed to be one of the good guys. It's fine for villains to indulge their every pettiest whim and to ignore the humanity of a small innocent child, but the good guys are not supposed to be completely insensitive to the needs of a child left in their care.

There are numerous examples in Game of Thrones of the "good guys" doing bad things, and even a few examples of the "bad guys" doing good things (though usually it's the bad guys doing something not as bad as the even worse guys). GoT would be boring if everyone were a stereotypical white hat or black hat.

 

I don't expect Catelyn to be completed divorced from a world in which everything is based on marriage alliances, the legitimate children born from those alliances and their inheritance.  When bastards can be legitimized, Jon represents a threat not just to her children but the whole purpose of Catelyn's life.  And though she may not have reached Dorne or 21st century levels of enlightenment, but Catelyn's pretty good compared to most of the other great ladies of Westeros: her sister Lysa, Cersei, Olenna Tyrell, Selyse.

 

Besides, Catelyn beahvior likely saved Jon's life

[jjjmoss]

Jon is a crap character anyway. So I'm fine with how other crap character Catelyn treated him.

[Meredith Quill]

Friendly Reminder:

One of the great things about GoT is the moral 'greyness' of the majority of the characters, without which, there wouldn't be so many fun debates.

Everyone's opinion is valid and we're delighted to hear read them all, however, please remember on any internet forum trying to prove that yours is the most valid is an exercise in futility. 

 

Thanks for reading.

 

Carry on!

[Winnief]

Well said moderator! 

 

Ahem getting back to the main topic, what did everyone think of the latest featurettes released?!?

[fantique]

Hiya peeps, finally gave up and came over to the dark side, I am now a Bookwalker!

 

Speaking of Dany, it would appear that Emilia Clarke still hasn't realized that whoever told her that dead-eyed stare or hers was an effective acting choice was playing a mean joke on her.

 

The Northern stuff looks good too - I'm one of those who thinks Stannis has kind of gotten the shaft on the show, but hopefully this trailer is an indication that things will improve on that front. And confident, assertive Jon Snow developing as a leader is so much better than whiny, emo Jon Snow.

I actually like her dead eye stare thing because so far, AFAIR, she only ever uses it when she is retreating inside of herself and is trying to appear strong and impassive. It's not as if it's happening in scenes where she is meant to display outward emotions. 

I also think that Stannis comes off better in the show for me for two reasons. 1) the show makes it clear that he is following Mel/R'hllor 's guidance because it will give him what he wants (Renly/Stannnis confrontation where Renly very much implies his conversion wasn't for religious reasons). 2) He seems far less whiny and up his own arse about why people don't follow him. He also has less irritating reactions with people trying to help him (although I give him props for listening in the end).

 

Yeah, I would think someone like Roose would recognize Sansa.

When would he have met her before she left for KL?

 

I get what you're saying, but remember there are no photographers, and the bannermen could only have seen her from where they were sitting, and they only got to see her when they are visiting Winterfell. It's not like they went to school with her or saw her every day. Most of the people who would have gotten close enough to see the color of her eyes are either dead, or enemies.

This. I think people often forget about the fact that these are medieval times. Unless Robert carried his crown, sigil and war hammer, most people wouldn't even know who he is. There is no mass circulation of portraits. Even if bannermen went to Winterfell often (which has never seemed to be much the case), they probably focused in Ned and Robb. To further add weight to this evidence, Yohn Royce in episode 8 has to be told from Sansa about when he came to Winterfell to accompany his son to the Watch to really believe Sansa as she gave him details. If one time was enough for visitors to remember Sansa, wouldn't he have gone "Of course, I recognise you. You look like your mother!" as soon as she said she was Sansa Stark? To us it's obvious when a character is an imposter, but for in-universe people, there is often nothing much to point them in that direction. The whole FArya thing is proof that people don't necessarily know their countrymen's family intimately. First, there was doubt that Jeyne was Arya simply because Arya is believed to be dead at that point. Also, quite a few of the Northern Lords knew Ned personally. Some of them rode to battle during RR with him, yet no one pointed out the fact that the only Stark child rumoured to look exactly like Ned (and that is gossip that would make its way around) looks absolutely nothing like Ned outside of being dark haired? And with the famous Stark eyes not present? Even then, they don't outright say: "that can't be Ned's daughter" because Theon said she is. IDing people then was hard and being 100% sure of someone of someone's identity is extremely rare unless they are close family members or interact daily.

 

Who talked about making sadist be good guys? She manipulated joffrey in season 2. And even though these guys are just as evil as him they are more rational and are going to do things based on what benefits them.

That was just about not killing a drunk knight and the Hound backed her up. It was also something she blurted out and almost got beaten for. Not the same level as convincing the North to still rally to the cause of a girl claiming to be a Stark and the Boltons to step aside. I would call BS on that unless it's a long, arduous, season long process with a 50% victory outcome. Littlefinger is a non-starter when it comes to the North. Not only is he slimy and was present when Ned died, without trying to help him, but his brand of power play is not how the North rolls. The Boltons are more in his lane and look at the lack of success they are having in Dance.

 

"All right, so Ned Stark the man least likely to play around in all Seven Kingdoms supposedly has a bastard he conceived during the war.  But no one seems to know who this bastard's mother was. But hey everyone's sure the boy is Ned's because he looks like a Stark-like Lyanna Stark in fact!  Ned's sister who was kidnapped or ran away with Rhaegar freaking Targaryen! And the boy must have been born around the same time that Ned's sister died under circumstances that were never fully explained but right afterward Ned turned up with a newborn he identified as 'his blood' and took home with him....oh no none of that was suspicious at all!  I completely why you IDIOTS NEVER ONCE EVEN WONDERED ABOUT ANY OF IT!!!"

That made me laugh. Although, in the show, he is in quite the glass house as he had Arya Stark as his BFF for who knows how long and never connected the dots.

 

I have two Unsullied friends who went straight to R+L=J during the first crypt scene in Episode 1, Season 1. As soon as they knew there was a dead sister, two of my friends who saw it separately, uninfluenced by me, popped out with that guess. So yes, quite a few of them are probably speculating about it. I have a few other Unsullied friends who started speculating an episode later.

I'm the same way. I only read the books this past christmas and the first thing I checked for in them was to see of my theory of R+L=J was hinted at. That first episode was basically telling us the status quo is not what it seems. In the same episode we discover there was a war that caused a regime change and that Ned, his sister and Robert were at the centre of it, we find out the current queen is having an affair that warrants killing a child to keep secret. It drew me the following conclusions; 1) Robert's kids aren't his. 2) there is a precedent for people having secret children and royal bastards can be uncovered. The rest of the season pretty much helps with that theme. Also after witnessing Robert as a husband, the idea that his fiancée was "kidnapped" seems less believable, couple that with Ned's reluctance to go after Rhaegar's remaining family and the whole dubious way Jon's mother's identity is handled made me believe there was something more to it. Also, the way they beat us over the head with "The honourable Ned Stark" cheating being such a big deal just clashed with the idea of Jon being his actual kid.

 

Mainly she just ignored him.

 

I don't know why anyone should expect anything more of a woman toward a product of her husband's adulterous affair who was forced into the household without her consent, in contravention of established social custom.

 

I disagree that she only mainly ignored him. If Jon feels this looming disapproval everywhere he goes, it must be that as a child, he picked up on it. Children are dependent on their emotional connection to adults around them for survival. That is why they can always pick up when an adult feels a certain way around them. If she only displayed ignorance towards him, he would just feel the way about her that he feels about Sansa. Like "Well, she doesn't particularly love me and keeps her distance but hey, she's still part of my family so to speak." The fact that he felt like Cat begrudged him every bite and was pissed whenever he did anything better than Robb shows an active dislike. The show definitely favoured that interpretation since the opening scene with her glaring at him like Snape in occlumency lessons pretty much spelled "I wish you would just vanish. Not even drop dead because they would mourn you, I wish you would have never existed."

 

This is my stance on the Cat/Jon situation. I think that by this point in time, everyone has their opinion on it and probably won't be swayed so I am completely ok with other people's opinion on the subject. Adults being petty with kids is something I have always been so vehemently in contempt of that as soon as I suspect a person/character of it, it's a tick in the minus column. I still liked Show Catelyn even aware of that and it just was part of her flaws, just like in any other human being. It's just that she had to work extra hard to gain my affection after this not so great starting point in my esteem.

Do I think she should have to raise Jon as her own son and love him as such? No. If she did, I would've admired her but not doing it doesn't make her an awful person. What makes her so damn petty though is that if she forgives Ned and has 4 more kids with him after she finds out and falls in love with him, there is zero way to justify the active hatred of Jon. She and Ned were not in love during RR, they were forced to marry, consummate and then didn't see each other for a year. So the whole "it must have been heartbreaking" angle doesn't work for me. The inheritance issue also doesn't work for me because Ned has never brought up the possibility of legitimising Jon and therefore all her kids would have to die (natural causes or "accidents") for Jon to have a tentative claim without a legitimisation. Assuming this is a possible scenario is ignoring both Ned and Jon's characters.

 

 

What I think happened is that, at first, it was only a question of pride and Tully mentality of protection of her kids' legacy. Then she might have realised that Ned is not the kind of guy to shortchange his legit kids and he must have been respectful of her enough that she started loving him. Problem is, the more she actually loves Ned, the more personal/emotional impact it has. Jon is growing and looks more like him than either her beautiful all Tully Robb the heir and little princess Sansa. She finally has Arya and instead there is the instantiation of the Stark-look club with Arya more attached to the ever more Stark like Jon. The fact that Ned does love Jon, that her kids love Jon makes her more resentful because she is the only one "seeing the threat". Because at this point, it's the looming ghost of the other woman, not of the evil brother ready to take it all from her beloved children. Now, this is all spec based on my real life understanding of such situations and the fact that, in AGOT, her recollection of finding out about Jon is way more subdued than her present feelings. Maybe it's just me, but I got a distinct feeling that, actually, her dislike of Jon grew over the years. I remember being so surprised that her initial reaction was so indifferent almost like "oh well, it's what men do in wars" kind of thing. That's what makes me so sure that her dislike is from her seeing Jon as the embodiment of the woman Ned might have loved more than her, since his secrecy and the taboo around Jon's origins now changes the narrative from Ned sticking it in because of being in a constant state of near death to him having been in love with this woman who, even now, he is "protecting" and honouring (maybe from beyond the grave as many suspect) by keeping Jon close.

In conclusion, if her seeing Jon is about the other woman, but she still forgives (mostly) and loves Ned despite that, her active dislike of Jon to me is petty. She is human, it is understandable but it is still what it is. I am at peace with the idea that others see it differently though.

 

Ugh... I'm sorry. I always end up rambling about this so I put most of my thoughts in the spoiler tag, if you want to read it, please do. I guess, while I'm ok with people not having a problem with her treatment of Jon or finding that in the context of ASOIAF it's not that bad, I always get a bit ticked off when people reduce the impact of her attitude towards him or act like Jon is a drama queen for being perceptive in recognising the fact that Cat wishes he never existed. I mean, Cat herself thinks about how the one thing she will never forgive Ned for is not sending Jon away when he was growing up, that doesn't exactly point to a merely dismissive attitude towards Jon. This is a general sentiment; not specific to the poster I am quoting BTW. 

Edited March 17, 2015 by fantique

[Avaleigh]

Since the discussion of the reread came up here I just want to say that I posted a summary of the prologue. I guess we'll see how it goes as far as pacing. 

 

I actually think the show did a pretty good job of the prologue scene. I certainly felt like the fear of the men on the show matched that of the book anyway. 

 

I do wish that the show had kept a bit more of the chameleon like aspect of the Others though.

[John Potts]

Fantique, the fact that Catelyn had five kids with Ned after him revealing he had a bastard son Jon Snow (well, four more - Robb was at least conceived before Jon appeared) could be taken the other way: if she couldn't divorce (and since theirs was a dynastic marriage about reinforcing the connections between the North and the Riverlands, even if it were possible, it is doubtful that neither Hoster nor Ned would seek a divorce) then the best way to keep the (in her eyes) "Viper in the nest" from inheriting is to produce as many legitimate children as possible. Now if it turns out that Jon was another Ramsay, even that might not be enough. Victim blaming? Rank prejudice? Yes to both - but very human.

[fantique]

Ahem getting back to the main topic, what did everyone think of the latest featurettes released?!?

Oh I love them! Especially everything about settings in Dorne. I was so happy when I heard they chose Sevilla for Dorne.

I also think that having all these featurettes and BTS stuff helps expand the world of GOT without it taking up screen time. It was mart of them to have it all out by the beginning of the season because now the Unsullied get more of that background info that book readers get to take in and would take to long to set up in the show. It also builds up quite the hype. I think that with all the dynamics shifts happening at this point in the story, they are trying really hard to make sure the viewers understand the stakes and get to the action as fast as possible. Character set ups can be fun but explaining the entire story of Dorne, its culture and their misgivings would be awkward but with all these extra bits, the Unsullied already are in the zone. They probably got inspired by how awkward the Dornish plot intro was in the book.

 

Answer to John Potts

Re: kids. Basically, my thoughts were, the having more kids happened after feelings were developed and, I suspect, the shift from simply fearing for her child's rights to resenting this unknown woman happened. I was just pointing out that from then on, it was about trying to erase that "rival" from Ned's heart. Technically, even if all their kids died, without legitimisation, Jon could still be passed over for inheritance. They could go up the family tree to Ned's mom side of the family, and her dad's, etc. à la Harry the Heir. That's why Stannis and Robb first have to legitimise Jon to make him heir to Winterfell. 

 

Re: Humanity.

I agree. My point was: I think that rather than making her inhuman, Cat's reaction to Jon makes her more human and realistic. I find it petty and unbecoming but that's ok that she has this one bad trait. Otherwise she would be ridiculously perfect. Tragically losing her fiancé, she manages to make the best of her marriage with unexpected husband, takes in his bastard like her own, is politically aware, strong and fights for her family until the end? Even her sometimes disastrous hastiness can be cause for sympathy because of her putting her family above all else. She needed to have one, completely and utterly irrefutably bad point. What bothers me is that sometimes people try to swipe even this one admittedly not great trait under the rug by saying that it wasn't actually bad or that "well, it was those times" (also the case for marital rape and we still are allowed to look down Robert raping Cersei).

I am for people still liking her and sympathising with her, I am just saying that that doesn't mean we should rewrite history and say that Cat's treatment of Jon was only surface level or not that impactful.  That would simply be ignoring what the textual/show(meh) evidence is telling us. I enjoy having a character that I like having one bad thing that I had to reason through to truly like them. It means they really earned my backing as opposed to the narration beating me over the head with "SHE IS GREAT AND SH**S RAINBOWS. THE MOST BEAUTIFUL, AMAZING PERSON IN THE UNIVERSE!!!!!!!!!!"

I liked weighing everything and deciding that despite her not being great to Jon (and it's not bias because I gave ZERO ish about Jon until mid-S4), I found other things to like that engaged me with her character.

[Winnief]

More clips up at watchers on the wall including a nice bit between Varys and Tyrion.  So glad we'll be getting more of them next season.

[AshleyN]

I actually like her dead eye stare thing because so far, AFAIR, she only ever uses it when she is retreating inside of herself and is trying to appear strong and impassive. It's not as if it's happening in scenes where she is meant to display outward emotions. 

Oh, I definitely think that's what she's going for, but IMO she doesn't really achieve it. Rather than "strong and impassive" I get "flat and monotone". And the fact that she goes to that well all the damn time makes it even worse to me.

 

But then again I rarely buy any of her attempts and appearing strong or authoritative. Actually, pretty much the only time Emilia's acting works for me is when she's barking out commands in a made-up language.

[jjjmoss]

Yeah, I can buy her as an interpreter, not as an actress.

[Winnief]

Yeah, Emilia is certainly *striking* as Dany but she doesn't wow me as an actress the way Maisie or Sophie do.  Yet another reason perhaps I'd prefer Sansa to be the YMBQ...because Turner has the chops to make that interesting in a way Clarke doesn't. 

[fantique]

Oh, I definitely think that's what she's going for, but IMO she doesn't really achieve it. Rather than "strong and impassive" I get "flat and monotone". And the fact that she goes to that well all the damn time makes it even worse to me.

 

But then again I rarely buy any of her attempts and appearing strong or authoritative. Actually, pretty much the only time Emilia's acting works for me is when she's barking out commands in a made-up language.

See, I am not saying you're wrong because that is the type of stuff that is subjective anyway...

But if the goal is for the character of Daenerys is to show that she is closing down and her face looks emotionless, how do you know that it's Emilia being flat as opposed to showing Daenerys closing down? Also by strong, I wasn't talking about her trying to be "queenly", I was referencing to when she is trying to look strong as in emotionally unaffected. I am not saying Emilia is amazing or anything, but I just don't know how it can be identified as "bad acting" if the actress is showing an emotionless face when the character is trying to appear emotionless. Especially because I usually notice that while her face and eyes are impassive, her body language betrays the fact that she is anything but calm and impassive. The one example I often remember is the scene when she kicks Jorah out. Her not looking at him and holding in her anger because she did not want to give him even her anger, I found really good and the not obvious route to express how much his betrayal affected her. I don't know if that's the type of acting you find ineffective then my guess is we just won't agree on her acting much. Totally understand your position though. I mean it's definitely open to the interpretation of the viewer. 

I'll be honest, Daenerys is not even in my top 20 and I pay little attention to her since post S1 so maybe I haven't paid attention enough to Emilia's acting. Oh well... I don't have much stake in it either way.

 

 

Yeah, I can buy her as an interpreter, not as an actress.

I fail to understand the difference when talking about performance art. Isn't acting the interpretation of a character? Otherwise, all actors would need to do is be good at mimicking and moving facial muscles. To me, the interpretation part is what sells how "real" the character feels and how much I invest in them. Otherwise what's the point if I'm just watching people recite lines and affect genuine emotions without any credence given to the issues I am meant to take interest in? How can someone interpret a character well and yet not act that character well? Just asking because people bring up those points and I'm always confused.

Edited March 20, 2015 by fantique

[AshleyN]

Yeah, Emilia is certainly *striking* as Dany but she doesn't wow me as an actress the way Maisie or Sophie do.  Yet another reason perhaps I'd prefer Sansa to be the YMBQ...because Turner has the chops to make that interesting in a way Clarke doesn't. 

Funny you should mention Maisie Williams, because I remember in the finale, in that scene where The Hound is practically begging her to kill him, she did her own version of the "dead-eyed stare" that was incredibly effective. She barely said a word in that scene but her face alone gave me chills.

 

But she was fantastic through that whole episode. I said afterward that I had spent the whole season expecting Peter Dinklage to own that episode, but Maisie kind of stole it right out from underneath him (though Dinklage was still great).

 

Also, writing this post got me to go rewatch some of her finale scenes, and being reminded of the way her and Brienne hit it off at first makes me sad all over again that they couldn't have met under different circumstances. I wonder if they'll ever meet in the books?

 

See, I am not saying you're wrong because that is the type of stuff that is subjective anyway...

But if the goal is for the character of Daenerys is to show that she is closing down and her face looks emotionless, how do you know that it's Emilia being flat as opposed to showing Daenerys closing down? Also by strong, I wasn't talking about her trying to be "queenly", I was referencing to when she is trying to look strong as in emotionally unaffected. I am not saying Emilia is amazing or anything, but I just don't know how it can be identified as "bad acting" if the actress is showing an emotionless face when the character is trying to appear emotionless. Especially because I usually notice that while her face and eyes are impassive, her body language betrays the fact that she is anything but calm and impassive. The one example I often remember is the scene when she kicks Jorah out. Her not looking at him and holding in her anger because she did not want to give him even her anger, I found really good and the not obvious route to express how much his betrayal affected her. I don't know if that's the type of acting you find ineffective then my guess is we just won't agree on her acting much. Totally understand your position though. I mean it's definitely open to the interpretation of the viewer.

I'll be honest, Daenerys is not even in my top 20 and I pay little attention to her since post S1 so maybe I haven't paid attention enough to Emilia's acting. Oh well... I don't have much stake in it either way.

I don't know, I think that there's a difference between flat acting and playing a character who is shutting down emotionally. And I think that there's a way to do the latter without appearing as the former, like with the Maisie Williams example I talked about above. To be honest though I don't know enough about acting to explain why one is so much more effective for me than the other, just that it is.

 

I think the main issue might be that I feel like with Emilia I can always see her "acting". Like, just about everything she does feels like a calculated and rehearsed choice and very little about her performance feels organic or natural to me. So when I see her pulling that move I see "Emilia Clarke trying to act impassive", rather than "Daenerys shutting down" or whatever.

 

I always feel kind of bad for being so critical of her though, because she seems like a perfectly lovely girl and I really wish I liked her performances more. But yeah, for me at least she's a weak link in a mostly stellar cast, which is why it annoyed me when she was the first non-Dinklage actor to get an Emmy nomination, especially over the likes of Lena, Michelle, Maisie, or Sophie.

 

 

I fail to understand the difference when talking about performance art. Isn't acting the interpretation of a character?

Not to put words in that poster's mouth, but I think he may have been referring to her as an interpreter of languages, not characters, in response to my comment about her being most effective in her non-English scenes. Because, while I may not be her number 1 fan I do have to give credit for how well she handles having to speak huge chunks of dialogue in a made-up language, which can't be the easiest thing in the world for an actor.

Edited March 20, 2015 by AshleyN

[Meredith Quill]

FWIW, I find Emilia's acting perfectly fine, I'm never taken out of the scene or anything like that. She may not be amazing but she does a good enough job for this humble viewer.

[Constantinople]

FWIW, I find Emilia's acting perfectly fine, I'm never taken out of the scene or anything like that. She may not be amazing but she does a good enough job for this humble viewer.

 

I would also add that she probably has the most bombastic dialogue of any character.

 

I will do what Queens do

I will rule

 

I will take what is mine

With fire and blood, I will take it

[Avaleigh]

Let's not forget the line Dracarys.

[BlackberryJam]

Emilia is particularly flat in her delivery. I think her skills are probably more suited to a rom-com.

And those eyebrows do not help.

[Danny Franks]

I think the biggest problem with Dany is the fact that the character just has no real range. She always seems to either be angry or coldly threatening. Not exactly asking for a whole lot from your actress, there. I think Clarke is fine, as part of an ensemble, but I think she was better at playing the more naive, sweeter Dany from the first season. There was something more authentic about her then. Perhaps it's deliberate, perhaps not.

 

As Constantinople points out, she gets some real stinkers in terms of dialogue and I'd extend that to her storyline as a whole. It just isn't very interesting, unless you're on the Wonderful Exotic Foreign Cultures Tour that GRRM seems to love writing. Yes, all people in Essos are jerks, I get it. I don't particularly care though, because Essos has always felt like an unwelcome excursion for me, in both the books and the show. There are no sympathetic characters in that story now anyway (I guess Barristan is okay, but he's just kind of there, like a glorified extra, much of the time). It's not the actress that takes me out of those scenes, it's my complete apathy towards them.

 

Still, she will always be far from the worst performer on this show while Aiden Gillen is still involved. At least Emilia Clarke's accent doesn't change three or four times in every scene.

[jjjmoss]

Not to put words in that poster's mouth, but I think he may have been referring to her as an interpreter of languages, not characters, in response to my comment about her being most effective in her non-English scenes. Because, while I may not be her number 1 fan I do have to give credit for how well she handles having to speak huge chunks of dialogue in a made-up language, which can't be the easiest thing in the world for an actor.

Yes that's exactly it.

 

Her "interpretation" of the character is crap.

[cheyz]

Like, just about everything she does feels like a calculated and rehearsed choice and very little about her performance feels organic or natural to me.

 

 

Dany IS calculated and rehearsed. She is very much playing a role, one she was never prepared for. Since Khal Drogo's death she's only been able to be natural with her women, and even some of them have betrayed her.

 

Not sure how they can show what's going on in her mind when she needs to be so isolated and controlled around others. Maybe she can talk to her horse?

[John Potts]

Not sure how good an actress Emilia Clarke is, but it gets hard to keep selling "I will conquer Westeros.... any time soon" when it seems that her invasion is no nearer to actually happening (I would say the same about the Zombie Apocalypse, but at least they don't talk about their invasion all the time). When you've cried wolf five times, it's hard to sell the sixth time. (Admittedly, that's more GRRM's fault than EC's). 

[fantique]

Dany IS calculated and rehearsed. She is very much playing a role, one she was never prepared for. Since Khal Drogo's death she's only been able to be natural with her women, and even some of them have betrayed her.

 

Not sure how they can show what's going on in her mind when she needs to be so isolated and controlled around others. Maybe she can talk to her horse?

I want to see that so badly. *snickers* Imagine "Oh Silver! I don't know what to do! I mean, Daario did take me in all the ways a man takes a woman... How can Hizdar ever compare?" 

 

And yeah, I think someone mentioned upthread that she was much more believable in S1 and I agree. After that Dany gets into I can do no wrong, chosen one territory. I wish they had done what they did with Cersei and changed the elements of the character that are too over the top. I think they tried in S2 to have Dany be questioned on her "right" to the IT and how she will actually accomplish her goal but the problem is that it basically came down to "I really believe in myself...?" I am actually scared she will start to actively annoy me in the upcoming season because that's when her wishy-washy handling of the Harpies and her Daario BS will come to the forefront. Sigh... Not to mention her sad attempts at getting Barristan to tell her fairytales of how he escaped those usurper dogs monsters. The trailer already had me rolling my eyes because a Targaryen throwing stones for futile political yo-yo and creating collateral damage is hilarious. Someone should get her a copy of TWOIAF. Seriously. Although I guess it will be tempered by her forming an alliance with Tyrion (thank god). 

 

Speaking of Cersei, how do you think they will play the paranoia angle? Will it be solely focused on Tyrion? Really strong as her only motivation for her misrule since her persona as a mother is really played up in the show? Because in the books it's obvious she's been sitting there all her life thinking she should be an active queen and we realise (even if she doesn't) that she's not qualified for it at all. It's funny because people always say that she is whitewashed in the show (and I understand where that comes from) but to me her faults in the show are even worse because she does love her children. She loved Joffrey and everything she did made sure that he would be a detestable little shit who is despised by everyone but her. The worse is, she knew how bad it was and didn't do anything about it. I was so pissed when she admitted that what Joffrey did shocked her. I was like "so what you're telling me is that you could've found ways that your little cretin didn't mess everything up but you didn't because... reasons?" Also I am wondering if the hostilities with the Tyrells will even be as open or will she be more subtle? Because she asked for Margeary's "help" with protecting Tommen... I am confused at how they will bring it back to her trapping Marg in that faux trial. 

 

ETA: I was on EW's site looking at photos and is it me or Areo Hotah's costume really weird and kind of useless for someone who is in charge of protecting the Prince? If pimps carried axes, they carry this. WTH? Actually, it's not even an axe, it's a glaive... Disappointing because it's a typical european weapon and I wanted his exotic non-Westeros origins reflected in his choice of weapon since the only interesting thing about him for me is his bad ass fighting ability.

Edited March 22, 2015 by fantique

[Holmbo]

Speaking of Cersei, how do you think they will play the paranoia angle? Will it be solely focused on Tyrion? Really strong as her only motivation for her misrule since her persona as a mother is really played up in the show? Because in the books it's obvious she's been sitting there all her life thinking she should be an active queen and we realise (even if she doesn't) that she's not qualified for it at all. It's funny because people always say that she is whitewashed in the show (and I understand where that comes from) but to me her faults in the show are even worse because she does love her children. She loved Joffrey and everything she did made sure that he would be a detestable little shit who is despised by everyone but her. The worse is, she knew how bad it was and didn't do anything about it. I was so pissed when she admitted that what Joffrey did shocked her. I was like "so what you're telling me is that you could've found ways that your little cretin didn't mess everything up but you didn't because... reasons?" Also I am wondering if the hostilities with the Tyrells will even be as open or will she be more subtle? Because she asked for Margeary's "help" with protecting Tommen... I am confused at how they will bring it back to her trapping Marg in that faux trial. 

I think the show has established that Cersei is a character who is "not as smart as she think she is" and also that she has some weird ideas about ruling. The one thing I think could be the most different is that they might not get across her strong want to rule. Maybe it will be more like: "shit Tywin is dead I have to step up as the leader to protect the family" rather than "yes Tywin is dead, my time to shine" that it was in the book. I think with Margaery she never planned to share the power with her but only used her at that point to give Mace more incentive to vote for Tyrion being guilty. This season Margaery will probably test the limits with Cersei and we will see strong motivations for her to want to get rid of her. She'll probably play nice though while she's secretly plotting to get her killed.

it will be interesting to see what they show of her actual ruling. They should have a small council scene with her, Kevan, Pycelle and Mace :) Possibly Tommen as well.

[fantique]

Ha! I want to see Kevan's face when he realises "Oh.My.God! She is actually useless! WTH?" I want him and Jaime exchanging looks like "May the Mother have mercy on our souls...No wonder Varys jumped on that ship." 

[Winnief]

I think the show has established that Cersei is a character who is "not as smart as she think she is" and also that she has some weird ideas about ruling.

 

"This is what ruling is-sitting on a bed of weeds and pulling them out one by one before they strangle you in your sleep!"

"I'm no expert but I think there's more to ruling than that."

 

And it's also been established that Cersei doesn't even pretend to care about the smallfolk and that she lacks subtlety.  Throw in the fact that the show has established she's slipping a bit, (Jaime noticing she's drinking more even before Joffrey died, the way she lost her shit at Blackwater) and her complete mental disintegration after Tywin's death won't be hard to buy at all. 

 

Ha! I want to see Kevan's face when he realises "Oh.My.God! She is actually useless! WTH?" I want him and Jaime exchanging looks like "May the Mother have mercy on our souls...No wonder Varys jumped on that ship."

 

LOL!  Of course in the books, Kevan, (having the dubious pleasure of knowing Cersei her entire life,) was all too well aware from the start that no good could come from having her in charge, (it's why he wanted her to surrender the Regency and go back to the Rock ASAP and when she didn't he left to get to work on Lancel's estate at Darry because he couldn't stand to be part of the inevitable trainwreck,)  but Pycelle sure seemed shocked by how quickly everything went to Hell. 

[jeansheridan]

I think Dany will get more interesting in the next book since she's on her own with the dragon.  I think watching her survive will be cool and we know she's tough.  She walked through the Red Waste after all.  It's been a few seasons since we've seen that grit.  I'm hoping we get some of it this season.

 

Maise is gonna kill it this season, learning how to be an assassin. 

 

Overall, I think the show has been better at cutting out the fat of the books and focusing on the main characters.  The Iron Born seem to be getting the axe more or less, but I can live with that.  They don't especially interest me (until of course Martin decides to have them be the big winners and take it all, but I suspect he won't do that to the show producers). 

 

I'm intrigued about where they are placing Brienne this season.  It looks like she might be filling in for Varya/Theon's sister.  Or is she at the Wall for some reason? 

But it feels more like Winterfell.  Like she hears about the wedding to the fake Arya and hightails there to stop it and of course realizes the truth since yes, she's actually seen Arya!  Woohoo.  Someone who might know who is who for once.  Heh.

 

And I still love the idea of the Varys/Tyrion combo for a while.  That has the making of a beautiful friendship ;^).  Just seeing them together will make those scenes of a drunken, self-pitying Tyrion go down better.  I hated him in the first third of that book.  I loved Tyrion on the river journey, digging the the prince, and hated Tyrion the slave.  Hated hated hated.  I felt it was all piled on too much and it went on way too long.  Yes, Tyrion is resourceful.  Great.  Give me two chapters of that, not eight.  Plus did I need another dead dog and pig?  No I did not.

[jeansheridan]

 

TA: I was on EW's site looking at photos and is it me or Areo Hotah's costume really weird and kind of useless for someone who is in charge of protecting the Prince? If pimps carried axes, they carry this. WTH? Actually, it's not even an axe, it's a glaive... Disappointing because it's a typical european weapon and I wanted his exotic non-Westeros origins reflected in his choice of weapon since the only interesting thing about him for me is his bad ass fighting ability.

Fantique, I know nothing of weapons, but I don't think his clothing looks unfunctional.  He looks like he can swing that glaive?  Never even heard of such a thing, so thank you.  .  I expected a younger man, but when I reread the book, the character has been with the king for a very long time.  And in fact, I see him as the opposite of Cercei's honorguard.  Here is a king who has the loyalty of a man for his entire life.  Bedrock loyalty.  Cercei should be so lucky.  And Dany has Barristan. 

Dorne in a many ways seems like a much more functional kingdom than Westeros. 

[Danny Franks]

Overall, I think the show has been better at cutting out the fat of the books and focusing on the main characters.  The Iron Born seem to be getting the axe more or less, but I can live with that.  They don't especially interest me (until of course Martin decides to have them be the big winners and take it all, but I suspect he won't do that to the show producers). 

 

Thank Christ. The Ironborn are just the absolute worse. A bunch of complete assholes who revel in asshole behaviour and have absolutely no redeeming qualities at all. They feel (like Ramsay Snow does) like GRRM's exercise in trying to write the most repellent characters he can think of. 'Hey, my brother raped my wife. Better murder her then!' 

 

Getting rid of Stoneheart (another good idea) means that Brienne is free to actually be useful to the larger plot, and I think that if I was writing the show I'd try to have her join up with Jaime and Bronn (that'd be a fun trio) or send her north to get into Sansa or Jon's storyline. I'm hoping that Sansa will replace Fake Arya in terms of Jon's reaction to her, and nothing else. Don't need to see any hint of Sansa being abused by Ramsay, but I'd love to see Jon actually trying to reunite with her.

[jeansheridan]

I think the show has already established the fake Ayra however.  Didn't they send her off last season?  I have such a memory of that for some reason.  And I don't see how you get Sansa from the Vale to Winterfell.  I don't see Littlefinger doing that at all.  I don't see the advantage for him.  Except that maybe Sansa will always be in danger from Cercei so is it safer for her to become Arya?  Not sure about that.  I'm assuming Littlefingers assumes the Lannisters will fall, right?  Isn't that why he hightailed it out of King's Landing?

[ElizaD]

I think the biggest problem with Dany is the fact that the character just has no real range. She always seems to either be angry or coldly threatening. Not exactly asking for a whole lot from your actress, there. I think Clarke is fine, as part of an ensemble, but I think she was better at playing the more naive, sweeter Dany from the first season. There was something more authentic about her then. Perhaps it's deliberate, perhaps not.

 

The first season was the last time Dany got to grow as a character and didn't steamroll her enemies while making smug statements. IMO, a big problem with her story is her invulnerability: she's both a show favorite and the ruler who's on top. I roll my eyes at how saintly Show Tyrion has been made, but his advantage over Dany is that he has capable and powerful adversaries and therefore greater tension in his scenes. Important characters like Cersei, Tywin and Joffrey have been allowed to strike at Tyrion and make him either emotionally or politically vulnerable. It's presented as something the viewers should recognize as a great injustice to poor Tyrion, but it's still a greater balance than Dany's story has had after the first season. It's a problem in the books too: Dany screws up in disposable foreign locations and can always evade lasting political consequences by roasting people and moving on to the next villainous strawman who'd look pathetic next to the quality of the Tywin/Roose/Varys/Littlefinger enemies the other main characters oppose or interact with. None of the messes she's left behind will matter once she gets to Westeros, whereas Tyrion's patricide still has the potential to come back and haunt him when he rejoins the main story and makes his claim to the Rock.

[Hecate7]

I think the show has already established the fake Ayra however.  Didn't they send her off last season?  I have such a memory of that for some reason.  And I don't see how you get Sansa from the Vale to Winterfell.  I don't see Littlefinger doing that at all.  I don't see the advantage for him.  Except that maybe Sansa will always be in danger from Cercei so is it safer for her to become Arya?  Not sure about that.  I'm assuming Littlefingers assumes the Lannisters will fall, right?  Isn't that why he hightailed it out of King's Landing?

 

Sansa WILL always be in danger from Cersei for murdering Joffrey. She will never, ever be able to prove her innocence, and so it's better to become Arya, who at least is not wanted for regicide.

 

Littlefinger doesn't just "assume" the Lannisters will fall. He's bringing it about. He's told us he's out to "fuck" all the great houses: Stark, Arryn, Baratheon, and Lannister. He moved Margaery Tyrell into the position for a reason. I see him and Tyrion on very similar quests--dismantle the current power structure and take the Iron Throne. Except now we've been told Tyrion will be putting someone else, not himself, on the throne.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Hecate7

[Winnief]

None of the messes she's left behind will matter once she gets to Westeros, whereas Tyrion's patricide still has the potential to come back and haunt him when he rejoins the main story and makes his claim to the Rock.

 

Not to mention the fact that as a kinslayer Tyrion is now cursed or what effects it will have on his relationship with Jaime if they're ever re-united.  And it's definitely bound to carry lasting psychological baggage as well.  Whereas Dany literally just flies away from her problems.  (At least in the books-on the show I think she'll stay in the aftermath of Mereen-but probably only long enough to pack the ships for the sail to Westeros.) 

 

But yeah, it is beyond frustrating that by the time Dany gets to Westeros most of the worthy opponents, will be long gone.  I mean Jon may be isolated as well at the Wall for now, but even he has been interacting directly with the likes of Stannis, Mance, Tormund, etc. not to mention having to figure out how to deal with the upcoming Ice Zombie apocalypse by in an act of stunning political vision making peace with the Wildlings...only to be stabbed by his erstwhile brothers for his pains. But yeah, Jon's storyline in ADWD, was all about "killing the boy" for the man to grow, and so his 'death' was ultimately the final test of fire there I thought.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Winnief

[Constantinople]

Sansa WILL always be in danger from Cersei for murdering Joffrey. She will never, ever be able to prove her innocence, and so it's better to become Arya, who at least is not wanted for regicide.

Sansa will be in much more short term danger if she becomes Arya and marries Ramsay. That's a death sentence.

I also don't understand why Littlefinger would agree to this unless he's already arranged to take Ramsay out (Ramsay is at least as unpredictable as Joffrey, if not more so). Even then, I still don't see what it gets Littlefinger.

 

Littlefinger doesn't just "assume" the Lannisters will fall. He's bringing it about.

In which case, Sansa will no longer be in danger from Cersei.

 

 

The first season was the last time Dany got to grow as a character and didn't steamroll her enemies while making smug statements.

The Spice Merchant in S2 always got the better of Dany in their verbal altercations. Of course, Ducksauce & PP took out the Spice Merchant and the rest of the Thirteen, and then Dany took them out.

 

...Tyrion's patricide still has the potential to come back and haunt him when he rejoins the main story and makes his claim to the Rock.

Tyrion can always blame Shae and then say he killed Shae to avenge his father.

Tyrion's still under sentence of death for killing Joffrey. Dany would no doubt state that Tyrion was not guilty of "regicide" since Joffrey was not the true king. But Tyrion still murdered his nephew according to a lawful trial by combat. So he'd need a pardon for that. I'm guessing Dany would grant him one.

[benteen]

Not to mention the fact that as a kinslayer Tyrion is now cursed or what effects it will have on his relationship with Jaime if they're ever re-united.  And it's definitely bound to carry lasting psychological baggage as well.  Whereas Dany literally just flies away from her problems.  (At least in the books-on the show I think she'll stay in the aftermath of Mereen-but probably only long enough to pack the ships for the sail to Westeros.) 

 

But yeah, it is beyond frustrating that by the time Dany gets to Westeros most of the worthy opponents, will be long gone.  I mean Jon may be isolated as well at the Wall for now, but even he has been interacting directly with the likes of Stannis, Mance, Tormund, etc. not to mention having to figure out how to deal with the upcoming Ice Zombie apocalypse by in an act of stunning political vision making peace with the Wildlings...only to be stabbed by his erstwhile brothers for his pains. But yeah, Jon's storyline in ADWD, was all about "killing the boy" for the man to grow, and so his 'death' was ultimately the final test of fire there I thought.

 

Excellent point about Dany and her enemies.  She starts out wanting revenge against the Usurper and his dogs but the Usurper is dead and so are most of his dogs.  Robert's dead, Ned's dead, Tywin's dead, Gregor's dead, Pycelle's dead, Lorch is dead, Hoster Tully is dead, Jon Arryn is dead, etc.  Pretty much the only person who has wronged Dany and her family (legitimate and otherwise) is Jaime (who doesn't seem like he's on a crash course with her) and Stannis (Stannis lead the fleet that forced her and her family to flee Dragonstone).  It seems the threat will come from The Others when GRRM FINALLY has her come to Westeros.  But Dany's enemies are largely dead, just like the enemies of Dorne are largely dead.  Dany and Tywin would have been a fun faceoff. 

[tennisgurl]

Dragons: Rarrrrrrrrrar! 

Tywin: *Glares*

Dragons: ...whimper 

[Shanna]

Thank Christ. The Ironborn are just the absolute worse. A bunch of complete assholes who revel in asshole behaviour and have absolutely no redeeming qualities at all. They feel (like Ramsay Snow does) like GRRM's exercise in trying to write the most repellent characters he can think of. 'Hey, my brother raped my wife. Better murder her then!' .

Yeah, I hate the iron born. I think this whole storyline is a 500 page diversion except maybe for that horn that somebody was carrying around. Unless its really going to be theon who will win the iron throne in a surprise! Lol.

I would be ok with Jon being drawn to winter fell because of Sansa but I don't want her anywhere near being married to Ramsey. I started out hating Sansa so so much, but now I apparently feel protective of her! It would be cool if Sansa was involved in some sort of revenge plotting with some manderly types.

I was looking forward to mance and some wildings killing off people slowly in the snow, but I'm kind of afraid they will cut that. They cut mance as a singer right?

Edited March 24, 2015 by Shanna

[fantique]

Fantique, I know nothing of weapons, but I don't think his clothing looks unfunctional.  He looks like he can swing that glaive?  Never even heard of such a thing, so thank you.  .  I expected a younger man, but when I reread the book, the character has been with the king for a very long time.  And in fact, I see him as the opposite of Cercei's honorguard.  Here is a king who has the loyalty of a man for his entire life.  Bedrock loyalty.  Cercei should be so lucky.  And Dany has Barristan. 

Dorne in a many ways seems like a much more functional kingdom than Westeros. 

Hmm... I am probably just being nitpicky. It just felt like he was such a a sober and somber character in the books, you know? Like that guy who doesn't do glamour, just the essentials. It seems antithetic for someone who is about security and probably blending in to have that pimp stick. Also, his axe was literally the only thing I wanted to see. The renderings of Areo Hotah with his weapons were what made me care so I guess that's why it annoys me a bit. As for his clothes, well, he is carrying a weapon with a certain heft to it and its manipulation, I assume, would rely upon the the dexterity of the user. Such a heavy costume kind of seems counterintuitive. Notice how Dornish men's garb is much freer around the torso and that certainly was reflected in Oberyn's ease of movement with his lance. Imagine the Mountain and Viper fight with Oberyn wearing what Areo is wearing. But hey, it could turn out badass in the show. I kind of want to see him respond to a surprise attack. For now though, his shoulder cape reminds me of what the Cardinals and the Pope in the Vatican wear so that's not great for a warrior. My guess is that his role has been expanded beyond the bodyguard role so maybe they wanted him to stand out more.

 

I think the show has already established the fake Arya however.  Didn't they send her off last season?  I have such a memory of that for some reason.  And I don't see how you get Sansa from the Vale to Winterfell.  I don't see Littlefinger doing that at all.  I don't see the advantage for him.  Except that maybe Sansa will always be in danger from Cersei so is it safer for her to become Arya?  Not sure about that.  I'm assuming Littlefingers assumes the Lannisters will fall, right?  Isn't that why he hightailed it out of King's Landing?

I think that was in the book? But the show actually cast an actress that is a "Winterfell worker" and looks very similar to Maisie Williams so I'm guessing that's who FArya will be? I hope so, I abhor the idea of Sansa having to even consider dealing with what Jeyne Poole did. It would feel like a regression. Either way, it will be great to have Stark (even one in hiding) at Winterfell again.

 

Getting rid of Stoneheart (another good idea) means that Brienne is free to actually be useful to the larger plot, and I think that if I was writing the show I'd try to have her join up with Jaime and Bronn (that'd be a fun trio) or send her north to get into Sansa or Jon's storyline. I'm hoping that Sansa will replace Fake Arya in terms of Jon's reaction to her, and nothing else. Don't need to see any hint of Sansa being abused by Ramsay, but I'd love to see Jon actually trying to reunite with her.

Can't that happen without her having to marry Ramsey? I honestly see little point in Sansa pretending to be Arya in order to be married to Ramsay. Her revealing her identity would be way quicker in getting the Northmen on her side than any other shenanigans. She can say she ran away from KL, her aunt Lysa helped her and now the Vale wants to help the North, and the Starks. It would take some time but that's much better than praying to all deities that Ramsay won't lose restraint. I'm sure Jon can have the same reaction as soon as he hears "your sister Sansa is in the hands of the Boltons", he will want to help. The rumours about Ramsay are certainly worrying enough that he would want to intervene.

 

The first season was the last time Dany got to grow as a character and didn't steamroll her enemies while making smug statements. IMO, a big problem with her story is her invulnerability: she's both a show favorite and the ruler who's on top. I roll my eyes at how saintly Show Tyrion has been made, but his advantage over Dany is that he has capable and powerful adversaries and therefore greater tension in his scenes. 

Umm, I am pretty sure that if anyone ever held him as saintly (I certainly never did and I don't understand how Tyrion looks in any way, shape or form like a saint in the show), him committing double homicide took care of that.

Edited March 25, 2015 by fantique

[Advance35]

I also don't understand why Littlefinger would agree to this unless he's already arranged to take Ramsay out (Ramsay is at least as unpredictable as Joffrey, if not more so). Even then, I still don't see what it gets Littlefinger.

 

I think building an alliance with the Boltons will be the first step in doing to House Lannister what House Lannister did to House Stark.   LF is now effectively in league with the most powerful Houses in the Vale to deceive the Iron Throne aka Sansa.  House Aryn one of the 7 Great Houses is a hidden dagger as it were.   He want to ally that hidden dagger with another one of the Seven Kingdoms, The North, which is controlled by House Bolton, thanks to the Lannisters.   That's 2 Regions and Kingdoms AGAINST the current Iron Throne Regime.   House Bolton seems to be working closely with House Frey and with word of Tywin Lannister's death I could see Walder Frey turning against the Lannisters.   If LF could manage to lure over House Frey as well that would give him The Vale, The North and The Riverlands.   That's not bad.    Especially if he can pull this off while House Lannister and House Tyrell wittle their strength fighting each other.

 

I admit I'm looking forward to potential Ramsay/Sansa only because I think the guy who plays Ramsay is VERY good and it's always fun to see Sansa mix it up with different types of people.  That's really one of the reasons she's my favorite Stark.   Cersei, Tyrion, LF, Margaery, Olenna, Tywin, Kevan, she's the only Stark in the books that got to meet Oberyn Martell.  It should be interesting because their were photos of LF in Kings Landing and he's certainly not bringing Sansa there, so I suspect he'll leave her in Winterfell with a great many Vale Soldiers and we'll see what Sansa is capable of on her own against Roose, Ramsay and Myranda, mixing in Theon as a wild card.

 

Also interesting, at last nights Premier GRRM confirmed again that he is looking forward to writing Casterly Rock and Highgarden.   I want to know what the hell is happening that will allow us to see BOTH of those Seats of Power.   And a few months ago didn't some illustrator give an interview saying based on what they know of the future storylines, they would really like to do illustrations for The Vale because a lot of "interesting things will be happening there".   And it was someone with official intel.   Though I can recall all the specifics now.

[Winnief]

Also interesting, at last nights Premier GRRM confirmed again that he is looking forward to writing Casterly Rock and Highgarden.   I want to know what the hell is happening that will allow us to see BOTH of those Seats of Power.   And a few months ago didn't some illustrator give an interview saying based on what they know of the future storylines, they would really like to do illustrations for The Vale because a lot of "interesting things will be happening there".   And it was someone with official intel.   Though I can recall all the specifics now.

 

I'm thinking that if/when Dany and the White Walkers do make it to the Seven Kingdoms we can expect to see CR, HG, and the Eyrie under siege by those forces.  I definitely expect to see dragons at Casterly Rock, (led by Tyrion,) and I think all the talk about how the Eyrie is 'impregnable' was setting it up for an attack by something they couldn't defend themselves from; like an attack from the air via dragons OR the White Walkers and Wights, since traditional arrows won't stop them.

 

As I type this though, I think one exception may be Highgarden-it could be that the danger/upcoming battle there comes from the Iron Born-and the fact that Cersei didn't release Paxter's fleet in time to stop them from hitting Oldtown.  I have a very nasty suspicion that since Roses don't fare well in Winter, the Tyrell's might not survive their disastrous decision to get in bed with the Lannisters.  They're already seriously regretting that call, and I think they may have even more reason to regret it before this thing is through and they may lose the Reach.  (With possibly House Tarly then becoming PL since Randyll Tarly's wife is a Florent and the Florent's have a claim to HG as well.)  Which is a shame partly because I kinda like the Tyrell's and more so because I *really* like Oldtown and don't want to see it, (or the presumably lovely Highgarden) getting the same treatment the poor Shield Islands did.

[Advance35]

As I type this though, I think one exception may be Highgarden-it could be that the danger/upcoming battle there comes from the Iron Born-and the fact that Cersei didn't release Paxter's fleet in time to stop them from hitting Oldtown.  I have a very nasty suspicion that since Roses don't fare well in Winter, the Tyrell's might not survive their disastrous decision to get in bed with the Lannisters.  They're already seriously regretting that call, and I think they may have even more reason to regret it before this thing is through and they may lose the Reach.  (With possibly House Tarly then becoming PL since Randyll Tarly's wife is a Florent and the Florent's have a claim to HG as well.)  Which is a shame partly because I kinda like the Tyrell's and more so because I *really* like Oldtown and don't want to see it, (or the presumably lovely Highgarden) getting the same treatment the poor Shield Islands did.

 

The Tyrells are in a really bad spot in quite a few ways.  Cersei is dangerous but they can't really ROOT for her to lose her trial by combat because if she is found guilty, Tommen's Pedigree is called into questions OPENLY and Margaery isn't a Queen but the wife of a fraud.  Cersei isn't going to be as sensible and I've know doubt she's going to continue her pursuit of destroying House Tyrell.

 

 If House Tyrell falls due to the Iron Born whom would be our POV character for it?   I would think such an event would have merrited casting of Iron Born for the show.   Which is why I don't see House Tyrell being betrayed by House Tarly.   Which is a shame because from a character POV I think he rivals Twyin in being ruthlessly pragmatic.

 

I could certainly be wrong but I got the impession we would be seeing Casterly Rock and Highgarden in TWOW.  So I don't think it will be Dany and her Dragons.   Where is Aegon at this point?  Dragonstone?

[WearyTraveler]

I think Aegon in the books is in Griffin's castle, preparing for his war; someone correct me if that's wrong.  I thought he was heading to the Baratheon Castle to take that first, but I may be remembering the details wrong.  It's been a while since I read the last book.

 

I don't think he'll go Dragonstone, which, is an Island after having crossed an ocean to get to Westeros, but it's possible.

[Premislaus]

From the released TWOW chapters we know that his forces has already seized Storm's End and he's there.

[Maximum Taco]

I think Aegon in the books is in Griffin's castle, preparing for his war; someone correct me if that's wrong.  I thought he was heading to the Baratheon Castle to take that first, but I may be remembering the details wrong.  It's been a while since I read the last book.

 

I don't think he'll go Dragonstone, which, is an Island after having crossed an ocean to get to Westeros, but it's possible.

 

You are correct, at the end of ADWD Aegon and the Golden Company are at Griffin's Roost, the seat of House Connington and their next target is Storm's End as Aegon announces that he will lead the attack himself.

 

There's no way Aegon would go for Dragonstone. While it would be symbolic to take the ancient stronghold of the Targaryens, it is an entirely useless stronghold when it comes to conquering the Kingdoms by army, which is what Aegon has and is planning to do. Even Robert captured all of the Kingdoms before turning his gaze to Dragonstone during the rebellion. Aegon would break his army against even a token garrison at Dragonstone, and after he took it, he'd have no army, no navy and only a rock in the middle of the sea.

 

It smacks more of a move that Daenerys (who seems to be trying to be the Conqueror reborn) would make, as opposed to Aegon who has been councelled on the subtleties of warfare, and knows that it is not a smart move. Fortunately Dany also has Dragons and a navy so it is a much more reasonable move for her to consider. Also, unlike Aegon, who already has a foothold in the Kingdoms at Griffin's Roost (and possibly now Storm's End) Dany still needs one, and Dragonstone could make a passible one as opposed to striking directly for King's Landing.

 

Storm's End is strategically is a much better target for Aegon, a castle that is known to be easily defended (by land and sea) and that is in close proximity to King's Landing by foot/horse. And while it isn't Dragonstone, it is still a great castle and the seat of his enemies, House Baratheon. Both Stannis and Tommen should theoretically rankle at having it taken when by right's it should belong to them.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Winnief]

Dragons: Rarrrrrrrrrar!

Tywin: *Glares*

Dragons: ...whimper

 

 

LOL!  I am more than a little disappointed though, that we will never get Tywin's reaction to the White Walkers; I suspect they would have blown his mind way more than the dragons even.

 

The Tyrells are in a really bad spot in quite a few ways.  Cersei is dangerous but they can't really ROOT for her to lose her trial by combat because if she is found guilty, Tommen's Pedigree is called into questions OPENLY and Margaery isn't a Queen but the wife of a fraud.  Cersei isn't going to be as sensible and I've know doubt she's going to continue her pursuit of destroying House Tyrell.

 

 

Precisely.  I've heard speculation that Cersei might even sic FrankenGregor on poor Margaery and I fully expect her to burn KL in the future as well. 

 

It smacks more of a move that Daenerys (who seems to be trying to be the Conqueror reborn) would make, as opposed to Aegon who has been councelled on the subtleties of warfare, and knows that it is not a smart move. Fortunately Dany also has Dragons and a navy so it is a much more reasonable move for her to consider. Also, unlike Aegon, who already has a foothold in the Kingdoms at Griffin's Roost (and possibly now Storm's End) Dany still needs one, and Dragonstone could make a passible one as opposed to striking directly for King's Landing.

 

I could definitely see Dany swinging by Dragonstone first-and maybe even discovering some of the rumored treasures hidden away there like dragons eggs and so forth, that they've been hinting about.

 

As for Sansa, I've come to believe that is she *is* going to Winterfell, as part of some dark machinations/revenge plot, (ST has basically confirmed that Sansa is now going through a Goth phase,) and will do so incognito, but not as a Fake Arya or bride of Ramsay.  I do think she'll interact with Theon, while she's there as he will recognize her, (and that could be very, very good since AA and ST are both such great actors,) and that all this is setting up a Sansa/Jon reunion by Season 6.  I don't think they'll show Sansa actually falling into Ramsay's clutches but she will make some close calls and perhaps have to flee from him at some point, (with Theon's help,) and that could easily serve the same purpose as Jon hearing about the marriage to Arya did in the books-he'd be desperate to go help save his sister from the Boltons, (even if unbeknownst to him she'd already escaped them,) and that would be driving his actions. 

 

Actually, that might work even better than the way it did in the books...ESPECIALLY if the Jon/Sansa dynamic is as I suspect it will be, going to be very important later on since

a. They'll be the first Starks to be re-united.

b. Come the Big Reveal and other events Jon's going to need it counsel from someone who's not only been to KL, the Red Keep, and had the 'pleasure' of a lot one on one time with the Lannister's and other players of the game.  Basically, Sansa's going to be Jon's guide to Southern politics in the future. 

[ElizaD]

Also interesting, at last nights Premier GRRM confirmed again that he is looking forward to writing Casterly Rock and Highgarden.   I want to know what the hell is happening that will allow us to see BOTH of those Seats of Power.   And a few months ago didn't some illustrator give an interview saying based on what they know of the future storylines, they would really like to do illustrations for The Vale because a lot of "interesting things will be happening there".   And it was someone with official intel.   Though I can recall all the specifics now.

 

If that's what GRRM said, it's unintentionally hilarious to me. He's looking forward to it, which seems to imply he hasn't finished writing that part of TWOW, and maybe hasn't even started it.

 

Cersei's escape to the Rock is a good theory. Highgarden is tougher - Sam is the POV closest to it, Euron the character most likely to wreck it since the Martells are heading east to Aegon and KL.

 

I wonder about the Vale. That stuff might have been completely cut after the show decided to send Sansa to Winterfell, or it might be partially spoiled in season 6 if it's related to the return and demise of Walder Frey.

[Winnief]

If that's what GRRM said, it's unintentionally hilarious to me. He's looking forward to it, which seems to imply he hasn't finished writing that part of TWOW, and maybe hasn't even started it.

 

 

At The Watchers on the Wall, they were guesstimating that, TWOW won't come out until late 2016 or early 2017-and that its entirely possible it won't come out until after Seven 7 and the show finale.

 

I definitely see Cersei fleeing to the Rock, (and Tyrion probably making a trip home at some point too.)  I agree that in the books Sam might be a candidate for POV at Highgarden but it could be Martin will do a one off chapter with one of the Tyrell's right before their death.

 

As for the Vale...the show may or may not return there in later seasons depending on what the eventual plan was for the Eyrie. (It may be crucial to the broader storyline or have an irresistible visual sequence coming up but then again it may be expendable.)  But frankly, I approve of them sending Sansa up North at this time, to intersect with that storyline, and having Baelish back in KL for the upcoming Cersei trainwreck.  And you never know...it could be Baelish is one of the characters destined to meet his end prematurely this season.

[Hecate7]

Can't that happen without her having to marry Ramsey? I honestly see little point in Sansa pretending to be Arya in order to be married to Ramsay. Her revealing her identity would be way quicker in getting the Northmen on her side than any other shenanigans. She can say she ran away from KL, her aunt Lysa helped her and now the Vale wants to help the North, and the Starks. It would take some time but that's much better than praying to all deities that Ramsay won't lose restraint. I'm sure Jon can have the same reaction as soon as he hears "your sister Sansa is in the hands of the Boltons", he will want to help. The rumours about Ramsay are certainly worrying enough that he would want to intervene.

 

She's hardly "in the hands of the Boltons" and urgently in need of rescue, if she's commanding the North and has wrapped all of the leaders of the North around her little finger, so to speak. You can't have it both ways--you can't make her completely invulnerable and Bolton-proof, and at the same time have people ride out to save her. And unless she's actually married to him, frankly, she can save herself. She can walk right out that door, and I can't imagine Baelish would stop her. I can't imagine why he'd bring her to the Boltons to begin with, unless, of course, he owes them in some sort of enormous way. Which he most likely does.