Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Hecate7]

What's really hilarious about that whole excerpt with Elmar is that Arya is the princess he's talking about, and she doesn't even know it.
 

 

I disagree that Catelyn would have said anything to Littlefinger if Ned had asked her not to.

 

 

No, but she'd have told Lyssa in a heartbeat, and Lyssa would have told Littlefinger even faster. For that matter, it's quite possible that Littlefinger already knows, and just hasn't figured out a way to use the knowledge yet, or has a way to use it but it's not yet time. Lyssa would probably also have told Jon Arryn, who might have brought an army into play at that point.

 

I do so want to know what was in that letter. I wonder if he thinks that she read it and just chose to ignore it or if it was so full of something inappropriate that he can automatically tell that she never read it once they finally see each other again?

 

 

Hmmm....perhaps something similar to his proposition to Lyssa Arryn? "I've always been in love with you. Kill your husband so we can be happy together." Something along those lines? Or maybe he wrote asking for Sansa's hand in marriage, and was furious when there was no reply.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Hecate7

[WearyTraveler]

I'm really not sure how your second paragraph can be reconciled with the first.  Frey was given orders by the Tullys: namely, the order to mobilize and join the main Riverlands army.  He refused.  He has no rational reason to follow the Tullys are this point:  Edmure has been captured, the Tully forces chased from the field, Riverrun is besieged, and their only allies, the Starks, are both outnumbered, at present incapable of coming to their rescue, and, as far as anyone knows, out-generaled.

 

First, Robb wasn't a king, or even an aspiring king, at that point.  Indeed, when the issue of the Stark-Tully alliance's future is raised subsequently at Riverrun, Stevron Frey (who would surely know) says that his father would be cautious about doing anything at that juncture, so kingship was not a consideration.

 

Second, there was every reason for Lord Walder to refuse.  The Starks' position at that moment sucks.  They have 18,000 men to Tywin and Jaime's combined 36,000, meaning they're outnumbered 2-to-1.  Tywin and Jaime are both experienced commanders, whereas Robb is a novice who has never won anything.  The point is made repeatedly that Lord Walder would not even be considering the Starks' offers but that Tywin made the mistake of not sending any entreaties to him and just assumed he wouldn't do anything.  And even then, Catelyn needs to both assuage his ego and play upon his sense of grievance to talk him into making what anyone would say is a bet against the odds.

 

Third, she wasn't "selling away Arya for a bridge".  Robb also acquired 4000 Frey soldiers, increasing the size of his force by almost 25%.  And even if it had been just for a bridge, it was a bridge that they needed to cross in order to have any chance, as far as Robb and his commanders told her.  Hence, why nobody objects to the deal.  They all recognize it's as good as they can hope for.

 

Fourth, Arya is, as far as anyone knows, a hostage of the Lannisters in King's Landing.  The best thing to be "for Arya's sake" is to rescue her.  As to her prospective hubby's status, so what?  They can live at Winterfell, or on some lands adjacent, and Elmar can be some official in Robb's service.  Indeed, Lord Walder was probably counting on that.

 

They (my two paragraphs) can be reconciled because we were talking about a specific point in time when none of the things you mentioned (Edmure captured, Riverrrun besieged, etc.) had happened yet and because the second paragraphs supports a point made in the first one.

It seems to me you're the one mixing in later events here.

 

We were talking about Frey letting Robb's army through the Twins.  Robb wanted to reach the Riverlands quickly, so that he could join Edmure and attack the Lannisters.  At the time Catelyn went to negotiate with Lord Frey the Riverlands were still strong and the war had not broken out in full force yet.  For Robb's army to have an strategic advantage he needed to cross the rivers quickly, going around them would have delayed him too much.  So, he needed to go through the Twins.

 

Your comment was that at that time Frey had no logical reason to let him through.  My comment was that he did have a logical reason because the Tullys are his liege lords and he's supposed to do what they ask.  Particularly when the King (Robert) hasn't done anything to deny the Tully claim to Riverrun.  There should have been no need to negotiate passage at that time.  A bird from Riverrun instructing Frey to open the gates should have been enough.

 

But, as it happens, Frey is a disobedient lord, who always has a plausible excuse that no one ever truly believes to disobey his liege lord, which eventually led to his nickname "The Late Lord Frey".  According to the rules of a feudal society like this, Hoster Tully should have been less forgiving and more strict with the Late Lord Frey, taking away lands in punishment for his behavior.  But since Hoster was sick and Edmure wasn't savvy enough, and they had ended up the winners in Robert's rebellion, his actions had no consequence other than the nickname.

 

Feudal law and politics are complicated.  Even nowadays some of it is quite funny and still remains.  I know the Laird of a Barony in Scotland, and according to the current law of the land, he owes his liege lord 25 mounted men, armed and able, and some other stuff if the shit hits the fan.  Basically, if his Lord demands it he'd have to do it.  So it was for Walder Frey at the time of the events we were discussing.  Robb should not have had to negotiate anything with him.  Frey should have opened the doors because the Tullys were asking.  That was the only logical reason needed.

 

But he didn't.  He wanted to negotiate because he was a resentful, bitter old man, which is what my second paragraph addressed: his character.  So, in this paragraph I explain why Frey was being an ass and demanding things.  And then I mentioned that his bitterness was part of what led him to betray Robb in the Red Wedding, just another point to support what a resentful little shit he was.

 

I should mention that even though there was no logical reason for Robb to negotiate passage with Lord Frey, he wisely chose to do so instead of demanding that the gates be opened.  Robb needed to cross quickly, mounting a siege on the Twins from the North and asking his uncle Edmure to do the same from the south might have eventually led to the Twins falling, but it would have taken a long time.  Time Robb didn't have, so he chose to do the political savvy thing and negotiate with Walder who took advantage of this opportunity to arrange advantageous marriages for his children.

 

Now, there are some things you mention in the post quoted above that are not chronological and didn't happen that way.  Edmure was captured during the Red Wedding, and the siege on Riverrun also happened after the Red Wedding.  Robb's position wasn't as strong as before, but he wasn't losing.  He still needed the Frey army so he went to the wedding to appease Lord Frey.  Unbeknownst to Robb, Tywin had been communicating with Roose Bolton and Walder Frey through ravens, planning the Red Wedding.  This is why Tywin says at one point that wars can be won without fighting.  Had Frey fought for his liege Lord (Edmure Tully), and ousted Roose as a traitor to Robb, he would have still been on the winning side, but he wouldn't have had his daughter married to a King and he would still just own the Twins.  Tywin offered him Riverrrun, by promising to make his son Emmon Frey (who was married to Genna Lannister) the Lord of Riverrun.

 

This was a better deal to Frey, so he took it and betrayed Robb in the Red Wedding.  There they captured Edmure and held onto him, while the Blackfish tried to keep Riverrun from being handed over to Emmon Frey.  So the Lannisters and Freys lay siege to the castle until Jaime showed up to break the siege.

Edited June 24, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[vibeology]

     You think Elmar Frey would be agreeable to all that ?

 

Elmar is an ass and Catelyn doesn't know the guy, but the reality is he thinks he's more important that Arya because she's a servant and he's the son of a Lord. He values the political capital he holds so in a situation where things work out, she's revealed to be Arya Stark and she has far more political capital than he does. She also has male relatives who are more important and all he has is a father who has too many mouths to feed and doesn't really care about any of his children on a personal level. Elmar doesn't really have to agree to letting Arya do her thing, her family does and he doesn't have all that much power to stop them. 

 

Cat, as the wife of a Lord, has two big jobs: have kids and get them married. I'm sure, knowing Arya, she's thought about what sort of match makes the most sense and when the demand is made to marry her to a Frey, Cat knows that while its not a perfect match, there are some advantages for Arya in marrying someone without lands. Sansa is the daughter you marry out to a Lord with holdings. She has the skills and temperament to be the Lady of a household. Arya would do better if she can stay at Winterfell and be protected by her family. Like I said, its not ideal to marry her off without her knowledge or consent or marry her off without meeting the groom, but I can see why Cat agreed to it since its probably the sort of match she'd been hoping to make for Arya anyway.

[anamika]

Now, there are some things you mention in the post quoted above that are not chronological and didn't happen that way.  Edmure was captured during the Red Wedding,

  

Not exactly clear on the chronology, but Edmure does get captured before Cat goes to treat with Walder Frey. Then he gets captured once again at the Red Wedding.

 

Elmar is an ass and Catelyn doesn't know the guy,

 

    Making it all the worse. At the least try to find out more about the guy before agreeing to marry her off to him. We see how well that turned out with Sansa/Joffrey.

 

 He values the political capital he holds so in a situation where things work out, she's revealed to be Arya Stark and she has far more political capital than he does. She also has male relatives who are more important and all he has is a father who has too many mouths to feed and doesn't really care about any of his children on a personal level. Elmar doesn't really have to agree to letting Arya do her thing, her family does and he doesn't have all that much power to stop them. 

 

   All this justifies an unhappy marriage with someone she dislikes?

 

Cat, as the wife of a Lord, has two big jobs: have kids and get them married. I'm sure, knowing Arya, she's thought about what sort of match makes the most sense and when the demand is made to marry her to a Frey, Cat knows that while its not a perfect match, there are some advantages for Arya in marrying someone without lands. Sansa is the daughter you marry out to a Lord with holdings. She has the skills and temperament to be the Lady of a household. Arya would do better if she can stay at Winterfell and be protected by her family. Like I said, its not ideal to marry her off without her knowledge or consent or marry her off without meeting the groom, but I can see why Cat agreed to it since its probably the sort of match she'd been hoping to make for Arya anyway.

 

   This logic makes no sense to me at all. Arya is the daughter to be married off to someone without lands? Sansa is the daughter to marry  to a Lord? In AGoT it is stated that Arya is better at managing households because Sansa has no head for figures. Why can't Arya be a Lady of the house and marry someone with lands and titles? People like Maege Mormont and Dacey Mormont also can be ladies of  their houses. Ned wanted Arya to marry a king. That's how high he reached for Arya.

 

Besides Arya has the right to marry for love just like Sansa. It's not all about playing with swords for her.  She has a particular type and there is no way she is going to go for Elmar Frey of all people. Jon seems to know exactly how Arya would behave if forced into marriage.

Edited June 24, 2015 by anamika

[Hecate7]

Nobody in this culture has the right to marry for love. I'm trying to think of one single female character who has actually married for love. I can't think of one. Catelyn, Cersei, Lyssa, all the Frey girls, Sansa (twice now), Margaery, Danaerys twice....they all married for dynastic reasons having nothing to do with love.Talisa got to marry for love, because she was a bizarre anachronism tossed into the narrative. Sansa and Myrcella got to be betrothed to boys they had crushes on because it made their stories all the more tragic.

 

None of the men really get to marry for love, either, unless they're lowborn and don't matter, or they're defying their parents like Robb Stark or Tyrion Lannister.

 

It IS all about playing with swords for Arya. She has no interest in boys or marriage at all, and she has known that since she was a small child, ever since Eddard Stark told her she'd have sons to some great lord and she said "no, that's Sansa." Arya's not interested in girls, either. She's just interested in archery and swords. The last thing she wants to do is have babies. She never played with dolls and she never had that particular fantasy.

 

In terms of a dynasty, yes, Arya deserves better than Walder's 22nd son. She could have married Tommen, or Lancel, or Robin Arryn. She'd have done well married to a Mormont or a Karstark, probably. But she was always going to be a playing piece. It was never going to be about love for her, even if she'd been a romantic like Sansa. Arya was never going to be the preferred daughter, simply because of how many people have to die first, before Arya has a claim to Winterfell. All four boys plus her sister, and any children they might have, come before her.

[vibeology]

Making it all the worse. At the least try to find out more about the guy before agreeing to marry her off to him. We see how well that turned out with Sansa/Joffrey.

All this justifies an unhappy marriage with someone she dislikes?

This logic makes no sense to me at all. Arya is the daughter to be married off to someone without lands? Sansa is the daughter to marry to a Lord? In AGoT it is stated that Arya is better at managing households because Sansa has no head for figures. Why can't Arya be a Lady of the house and marry someone with lands and titles? People like Maege Mormont and Dacey Mormont also can be ladies of their houses. Ned wanted Arya to marry a king. That's how high he reached for Arya.

Besides Arya has the right to marry for love just like Sansa. It's not all about playing with swords for her. She has a particular type and there is no way she is going to go for Elmar Frey of all people. Jon seems to know exactly how Arya would behave if forced into marriage.

You can't ignore how marriage works in This world. Children are married off to unknowns often enough that Cat has no reason to push for something else. She married Ned practically sight unseen. Joffrey/Sansa barely knew each other. Joff/Margarey even less before the agreement was made. Robert/Cersei, Dany/Drogo, Lysa/Jon and so on. Expecting Cat to reject a system she's grown up with is unfair. Some arranged marriages work and some don't but one thing is clear; love matches are a disaster in this world. Rhaegar/Lyanna destroyed the kingdom.

Having a plan for Arya's future is Cat's job. It's all fine and good to say Ned wanted to marry her to a king but the reality is Sansa was betrothed to the heir to the throne and Arya still has to marry someone. It's not the most prestigious match that could be made but it's a solid match that would give Arya some level of agency. I think Cat knew Aray wouldn't be happy but I struggle to think of what would and I imagine Cat would too.

[benteen]

What's really hilarious about that whole excerpt with Elmar is that Arya is the princess he's talking about, and she doesn't even know it.

 

 

No, but she'd have told Lyssa in a heartbeat, and Lyssa would have told Littlefinger even faster. For that matter, it's quite possible that Littlefinger already knows, and just hasn't figured out a way to use the knowledge yet, or has a way to use it but it's not yet time. Lyssa would probably also have told Jon Arryn, who might have brought an army into play at that point.

 

 

Hmmm....perhaps something similar to his proposition to Lyssa Arryn? "I've always been in love with you. Kill your husband so we can be happy together." Something along those lines? Or maybe he wrote asking for Sansa's hand in marriage, and was furious when there was no reply.

 

That letter that Catelyn got sent she burnt without looking at it and I believe the line was "dutifully burned it."  After LF challenged Brandon, I don't think she wanted anything to do with LF, even after Brandon's death.  Littlefinger's letter might have been a marriage proposal or maybe he finally learned subtlety and it was a "I'm here to talk if you need me" message where he hoped to try a different tactic at winning her hand.

 

Agreed that Arya had no interest in marriage but I don't think that means she'll never fall in love, providing she lives long enough to.

 

One minor correction, Arya wouldn't be the last one in the Winterfell succession list because trueborn daughters come before bastards (ie Jon Snow).  But as pointed out, she would be literally the last in the line of succession of Ned's trueborn children.

[proserpina65]

SeanC, on 23 Jun 2015 - 9:53 PM, said:

 

First, Robb wasn't a king, or even an aspiring king, at that point.  Indeed, when the issue of the Stark-Tully alliance's future is raised subsequently at Riverrun, Stevron Frey (who would surely know) says that his father would be cautious about doing anything at that juncture, so kingship was not a consideration.

  But the deal was made in the belief that Robb would be king and that his daughter would be Queen in the North.

No, it wasn't.  The deal with Walder Frey was made while Ned was still alive.  That was the reason for needing to cross Frey's bridge so badly - Robb was desperate to get to Kings Landing to rescue his father.  The Stark bannermen didn't declare Robb king until after Ned's execution.  There was absolutely no expectation of Robb being king of any kind at the point when Robb needed to negotiate with Frey.Your chronology is most definitely messed up.

[Constantinople]

So she was selling Arya for a bridge and 4000 Frey soldiers. And my point still stands. The KITN should have been more than enough for the bridge and the soldiers. Let's see everything that Cat had to agree to for the bridge: Wards at Winterfell, a personal squire for Robb, Robb himself and Arya. Would Walder Frey have refused them the bridge if Catelyn had stood firm on Arya? She basically gave into everything he asked for. How is that being a good negotiator. If GRRM wants the reader to see her that way then he should have included a scene where he asks for something and she haggles and is able to get him to agree to something lesser in value. We never saw that. Just Cat buckling to whatever Walder says.

I'm confused why you refer to Robb as the King in the North.

At the time the marriage negotiations with Walder Frey took place, Ned was either still alive or word of his execution hadn't reached the Twins. Robb was Ned's heir and the de facto Lord of Winterfell, but nothing more. So, at the time, Walder couldn't have had any expectation that one of his daughters would marry the King of the North, only that, in due course, she would become the Lady of Winterfell.

[anamika]

No, it wasn't.  The deal with Walder Frey was made while Ned was still alive.  That was the reason for needing to cross Frey's bridge so badly - Robb was desperate to get to Kings Landing to rescue his father.  The Stark bannermen didn't declare Robb king until after Ned's execution.  There was absolutely no expectation of Robb being king of any kind at the point when Robb needed to negotiate with Frey.Your chronology is most definitely messed up.

 

       Well, then I got that wrong. Robb was the future lord of Winterfell and future warden of the North when Catelyn made the deal so that Robb could go save his father.  Lady of Winterfell is still a great deal for Walder's daugher and it should have been more than enough for the bridge. My point remains that marriage to Robb in itself was a very big deal (His grandchildren would be future Lords of the North) and there Catelyn could have got away by taking Arya out. Both Robb and Arya, for this deal was a bit too much.  Walder had to pay Roose, just the lord of Dreadfort, a dowry to get him to marry one of his grand daughters. That's how low down the totem pole the Freys were.

 

Nobody in this culture has the right to marry for love. I'm trying to think of one single female character who has actually married for love. I can't think of one. Catelyn, Cersei, Lyssa, all the Frey girls, Sansa (twice now), Margaery, Danaerys twice....they all married for dynastic reasons having nothing to do with love.Talisa got to marry for love, because she was a bizarre anachronism tossed into the narrative. Sansa and Myrcella got to be betrothed to boys they had crushes on because it made their stories all the more tragic.

 

      So I am guessing then that everyone is okay with Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Since she does not have the right to marry for love and all that. I agree that Westeros is about arranged marriages where the women don't have much of a choice while their parents or others decide who they marry.  But big houses make marriages with big houses.

 

Let's take all the names you mentioned: Catelyn Tully became Lady of Winterfell, Lysa became Lady of the Vale,  Cersei became Queen. Margaery became Queen (Twice). Sansa was betrothed to a future King and later married Tyrion Lannister, former hand of the king. Myrcella was send to marry Trystane, second son of the prince of Dorne and Olenna plotted to marry Sansa to Willas, heir to the Reach.

 

 LF is plotting to get his bastard Alayne Stone married to Harry the Heir. Daenaerys married the Khal of the Dothraki  and became the Khaleesi.  Hizdahr was one of the important noblemen in Meereen. Arianne is out to get Aegon. Hell, even Jon made a better deal by arranging a marriage between Alys KarStark and the Magnar of the Thenns, allying the North with the Wildlings.

 

The Frey girls? Let's see. One gets betrothed to the Future warden of the North, is married to Edmure Tully former heir of the Riverlands and one is married to the current Warden of the North.

 

And Arya, second daughter of Winterfell and the North, gets the 22nd son of Walder Frey who may be the illegitimate son of Black Walder Frey. The only person I can think of that got a worse deal is Lollys Stokeworth who married Bronn. Or maybe Lady Hornwood who was forced to marry Ramsay.

 

It IS all about playing with swords for Arya. She has no interest in boys or marriage at all, and she has known that since she was a small child, ever since Eddard Stark told her she'd have sons to some great lord and she said "no, that's Sansa." Arya's not interested in girls, either. She's just interested in archery and swords. The last thing she wants to do is have babies. She never played with dolls and she never had that particular fantasy.

 

  This is a very strict interpretation that turns Arya into a cliche warrior women type character based on a 9 yr old child being all 'Eww,Boys!'.  Readers allow for Sansa to change her opinions on marriage but Arya is still held to her 9 yr old views that turn her into this one dimensional character who does not change ever and is only about playing with swords.

 

We don't know what 11-12 yr old Arya's feeling are on the matter because she is currently a traumatized child soldier,  too busy trying to survive and not thinking about marriage and children because that's not on the radar for her right now. Same as Sansa. Sansa's ideas on marriage are diametrically different to what it was when she was 11. I would think the same holds true for Arya. As we saw from her latest TWOW chapter, she HAS changed in many ways.

 

 Arya was very young when we first met her and self conscious of her own appearance as opposed to Sansa's beauty. Since then she has been on the run constantly and has not had the time to reflect on things like romance. But we do see her note the attractiveness of several men/boys (Notably Gendry). 

 

Also note that in the original outline of the books the main romance in the series was a love triangle between Arya, Jon and Tyrion. The same Arya who was not interested in marriage and children in book one, who was very proficient in fighting with her sword needle and yet was shocked to find herself loving Jon that way. Characters evolve and change their opinions over time and the same holds true for Arya.

 

Arya was never going to be the preferred daughter, simply because of how many people have to die first, before Arya has a claim to Winterfell. All four boys plus her sister, and any children they might have, come before her.

    

    That's undermining Arya a LOT. Catelyn tully become Lady of Winterfell and Lysa Tully became Lady of the Vale while Edmure was heir to the Riverlands.  Neither Catelyn nor Edmure had to die, for Lysa to make a marriage with a big house and for Hoster to make an alliance with the Vale.

 

Fake Arya was send to hold the North for the Lannisters and a bunch of Northerners are heading out to rescue her. Arya has a lot of importance and Ned wanted great things for her.  She was as much the preferred daughter as Sansa was and I thought Catelyn did her a disservice by not fighting harder to keep her off the deal. Not just for Arya's sake, but just good bargaining tactics. Arya could have been used to make alliances with more powerful houses than the Freys.

Edited June 25, 2015 by anamika

[Hecate7]

That's undermining Arya a LOT. Catelyn tully become Lady of Winterfell and Lysa Tully became Lady of the Vale while Edmure was heir to the Riverlands.  Neither Catelyn nor Edmure had to die, for Lysa to make a marriage with a big house and for Hoster to make an alliance with the Vale.

 

 

Catelyn was by far the more sought after daughter in the Tully house, and Lyssa was still bitter about it as Lady of the Vale. I actually agree 100% that Arya should not have been thrown in to marry some 22nd son of Walder Frey. Probably all his others were already married or something. That Catelyn made such a lousy bargain I think is meant to foreshadow the way the Starks have come down in the world, from having a daughter affianced to the Crown Prince and head of household the Hand of the King, to having to marry into a minor and unattractive house to get access to a frigging bridge.

 

Since it was never going to play out that either Stark girl married for love, I for one do think Tyrion was the best match either girl could have made, at the time he married Sansa. Mind you, it's only in the context of all marriages being arranged anyway and nobody having much of a say, that I'm ok with that marriage. I'm not really ok with the whole system, but it's what's in place and so in that context Tyrion is actually quite a bargain for some girl, when you compare him with the alternatives: Loras, Lancel, Theon, Ramsey, Harry, the 22nd Frey son....nobody's as well placed, rich, intelligent, resourceful or kindly. No one is nearly as chivalrous towards women, either--Tyrion rivals Ned Stark in that regard.

 

I don't see a great romance in Arya's future, not because she's a tomboy, but because she's an antisocial, isolated child who only thinks about killing. Quite a lot of people in this story are traumatized but they still fall in love, make friends, fantasize, etc...Bran is far more traumatized than Arya, but he's all about Meera Reed, and was very fond of Jojen. Arya is just different from other people. I think Sansa may have been created because there was just no way to make Arya fill those spots with the path she's on.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Hecate7

[vibeology]

But big houses make marriages with big houses.

 

Let's take all the names you mentioned: Catelyn Tully became Lady of Winterfell, Lysa became Lady of the Vale,  Cersei became Queen. Margaery became Queen (Twice). Sansa was betrothed to a future King and later married Tyrion Lannister, former hand of the king. Myrcella was send to marry Trystane, second son of the prince of Dorne and Olenna plotted to marry Sansa to Willas, heir to the Reach.

 

That is a brand new thing though. Prior to Robert's Rebellion, children of big houses (including the heirs) almost always married bannermen. Ned's mom was her husbands cousin. Tywin married a cousin, Hoster's wife was a Whent, Robert/Stannis/Renly's mother was an Estermont. There was the occasional marriage across the Great Houses, but it wasn't some set tradition. The bulk of those marriages mentioned above all came about to secure alliances for Robert's Rebellion. Previously marriages were made to secure loyalty between a lord and his bannermen. And you can't look at Sansa's forced marriage to Tyrion as a positive. She was their hostage and the match would not have been something her parents would have agreed to. 

 

The Starks just weren't that ambitious when it came to their children's future spouses. Instead of spending time in the South making matches, Ned and Cat were content to stay in Winterfell and marry their children to the children of Northern Lords. Robb and Alys Karstark were considered and if that's who they chose for their heir, they weren't suddenly going to be trying to marry their youngest to Robyn Arryn or something. The only reason Sansa is engaged to Joffrey is because Robert suggests it. Arya was not going to marry the heir to a great house. As far as Cat and Ned were concerned, before the war broke out, their kids were marrying people at the Alys Karstark level so Arya ending up engaged to a Frey is pretty much in line with what Cat had always planned for her children,

[SeanC]

Well, then I got that wrong. Robb was the future lord of Winterfell and future warden of the North when Catelyn made the deal so that Robb could go save his father. Lady of Winterfell is still a great deal for Walder's daugher and it should have been more than enough for the bridge. My point remains that marriage to Robb in itself was a very big deal (His grandchildren would be future Lords of the North) and there Catelyn could have got away by taking Arya out. Both Robb and Arya, for this deal was a bit too much. Walder had to pay Roose, just the lord of Dreadfort, a dowry to get him to marry one of his grand daughters. That's how low down the totem pole the Freys were.

How could she have gotten away with it, if Frey demanded it? He holds all the cards. Catelyn's accomplishment is convincing him to let them through at all, given that, purely rationally, he has little reason to.

I'm also not sure why Arya marrying Elmar Frey is a bigger problem than her being, at that very moment, a King's Landing hostage in the hands of the enemy and potentially subject to severe depredations if things go badly for the Stark army.

Edited June 25, 2015 by SeanC

[MadMouse]

 

Arya was not going to marry the heir to a great house. As far as Cat and Ned were concerned, before the war broke out, their kids were marrying people at the Alys Karstark level so Arya ending up engaged to a Frey is pretty much in line with what Cat had always planned for her children,

 

You have to admit that there's a big difference between a Karstark and the twenty second son of Walder Frey. Arya might not have ended up marrying the Lord of the Vale but a Cerywn, Umber or Glover was probably where she was headed. But lets be honest the lack of any betrothals for the Stark children was because Martin needed it that way to set up the Red Wedding. The same goes for Edmure, late twenties only son of the lord and not married yet? 

[SeanC]

Elmar is definitely beneath what Arya could expect under ordinary conditions, but those weren't ordinary conditions. Frey has something the Starks desperately need, will face no consequences for saying no, and will be taking a considerable risk by saying yes. As such, Catelyn's primary goal is to get him to name terms at all.

[MadMouse]

Catelyn was desperate, Robb marrying a Frey was more than enough for an alliance but Walder took advantage of her. It doesn't make her a terrible person, she was just the wrong person to negotiate terms. No consequences? The GreatJon wanted Robb to attack the Freys after her married Jeyne, they sure would have pushed for him to attack if Walder denies using his bridge.

 

And what makes the Arya betrothal terrible is she's a huge chip to make an alliance. Dangle her and Sansa in front of a few Vale lords and who knows what happens. That's where Cat was right to trade Jaime for her daughters.

[proserpina65]

there Catelyn could have got away by taking Arya out

 

Obviously she couldn't have, since Arya ended up having to be part of the deal.  Walder Frey had, for years, felt slighted and insulted by Cat's family; he was going to insist on everything he could possibly get from her and Robb.  Roose Bolton had, to our knowledge, never done anything to which Frey took exception, and there was not the sense of urgency behind their deal.  Not comparable situations. 

[proserpina65]

And Arya, second daughter of Winterfell and the North, gets the 22nd son of Walder Frey who may be the illegitimate son of Black Walder Frey.

 

Under normal circumstances, Arya would have been promised to someone better, not a love match because almost no one of any status married for love in this society, but certainly someone of higher status.  But these were, in no way, normal circumstances, even for Westeros.  Robb desperately needed to get his army across the river as quickly as possible, and needed Frey's permission to cross the bridge at the Twins in order to do that; realistically he and Cat had to agree to whatever Frey demanded in return.

The GreatJon wanted Robb to attack the Freys after her married Jeyne, they sure would have pushed for him to attack if Walder denies using his bridge.

 

Robb didn't have the time to take on the Freys, and he couldn't afford to lose the men it would've cost, not if he was going to face the Lannister armies, which he was.  Realistically he had to cross that bridge and therefore had to agree to anything Frey wanted in return.

 

And with that, I'm out of this discussion, because while I enjoy healthy debate, I don't enjoy going around in circles endlessly.

[SeanC]

No consequences? The GreatJon wanted Robb to attack the Freys after her married Jeyne, they sure would have pushed for him to attack if Walder denies using his bridge.

No, not a consequence, because Lord Walder is not vulnerable. GRRM sets this out quite explicitly in the chapter in question. When Robb's army marches up to the Twins, the immediate conclusions of all his commanders (including the Greatjon) is that it cannot be sieged. Ergo, their only options are to negotiate a way across, retreat, or go south to fight Tywin, which they don't want to do.

[MrWhyt]

When Robb's army marches up to the Twins, the immediate conclusions of all his commanders (including the Greatjon) is that it cannot be sieged. 

Yeah you lay siege to a city by surrounding it and cutting it off from supplies and reinforcements, then you sit and wait and hope their supplies run out/will breaks before yours. They can't surround The Twins because they can't get sufficient forces to the other side of the river.

[Delta1212]

Yeah you lay siege to a city by surrounding it and cutting it off from supplies and reinforcements, then you sit and wait and hope their supplies run out/will breaks before yours. They can't surround The Twins because they can't get sufficient forces to the other side of the river.

Yeah, the whole point of going there was that they didn't have time to get their whole army across any other way. Seiging the Twins would have required time and a way across, the two things that they went to the Twins because they were lacking in the first

[Amtosbm]

Due to the interesting conversations here and there, I have been rewatching the show. I must have forwarded a lot because I am catching things that I never saw or realized before. 

 

One is that Tyrion has mentioned at least twice that I've heard, that he was married before.  I know the show hasn't mentioned Tysha but its interesting that this was mentioned but never really expanded upon. I can't see them bringing her in now but its one of those dangling plot threads that really bother me now on rewatch.

 

Jojeen also mentions that his father never talked about the rebellion with him. It seems like Howland told his children lots of stories in the books - did he never mention the rebellion there?

 

I never caught that Qyburn was left to die at Harrenhall and that Robb and Talisa found and rescued him. Had he always been at Harrenhall?  I can't remember from the books. His fortunes really changed when Jamie took him back with him to Kings Landing.

 

Dany's story is also so much more engaging when watching back to back and not having to wait a week. I think it plays out much better on the show then it does in the books. I can say I am surprised that D & D passed on putting in some girl on girl action regarding both Dany and Cersei.

 

I had also forgotten what a horrid little turd Joffrey was and how much Cersei pampered him.  Ramsay still is the most disgusting character on the whole show. The more I see him the more convinced I am that IR is playing him as insane but not knowing his is. The amount of times Sansa has been told she will love her children on this show, even if she hates the father, is making me nervous that her marriage to Ramsay was a means to make this happen. 

 

I think so far I have enjoyed season three the most, even if I hate the changes made, especially Talisa.  Robb just looks like an even bigger moron.

 

[Constantinople]

One is that Tyrion has mentioned at least twice that I've heard, that he was married before.  I know the show hasn't mentioned Tysha but its interesting that this was mentioned but never really expanded upon. I can't see them bringing her in now but its one of those dangling plot threads that really bother me now on rewatch.

Tysha hasn't appeared as a character in the show, but then, so far as  I recall, she hasn't in the books either.  She's a secondhand character, whom we only know of form the stories told by other characters.  That being said, Tyrion mentioned Tysha by name when he told the story of his first marriage to Bronn & Shae in Baelor, Season 1, Episode 9.

 

Regardless, I don't see how it's a dangling plot thread since, so far as I can tell, the character only existed to shed some light on Tyrion, Tywin and their relationship.

[Avaleigh]

I don't want to see Tysha again but I know some people think she's that whore in Braavos who "marries" every man she beds. Then there are those who think she had a kid and that Tyrion will eventually come into contact with this kid. The latter seems more likely than the former to me but I guess anything is possible? 

[benteen]

I'd like to see Tyrion make peace with the whole Tysha thing although I think he lacks the mental maturity for that.

[Happy Harpy]

I had also forgotten what a horrid little turd Joffrey was and how much Cersei pampered him.  Ramsay still is the most disgusting character on the whole show. The more I see him the more convinced I am that IR is playing him as insane but not knowing his is. The amount of times Sansa has been told she will love her children on this show, even if she hates the father, is making me nervous that her marriage to Ramsay was a means to make this happen.

Yep, that's my main worry about Sansa.

It could also go in the UO thread, but I think that D&D did the right thing with the way they write Ramsay, as someone more controlled and smarter than his books counterpart.

Joffrey was the King, and his absolute and undisputed power was what made him so dangerous for people around him. Ramsay isn't the King, he doesn't have the same level of power as Joffrey had handy, so Ramsay needs another set of power/luck on his side to be at least as big of a threat.

Joffrey also left a void as "love to hate", or even "hate to love to hate" character -because I felt about Joffrey the same as I feel about Ramsay: I wanted him to die like yesterday. I admire both actors work, but I take(took) no pleasure in watching their characters abuse those around them. I never thought "Oh, great, a Joffrey scene!": I was bracing for the worst. And it could always be worse. Just like it is with Ramsay.

In that sense, and because I think that the show "needs" at all times a human character that embodies evil and reminds us what a feudal system can translate into when such a character is in any position of power, I have no problem with Ramsay's characterization. But I count the episodes until he finds his demise.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[nksarmi]

I'd like to see Tyrion make peace with the whole Tysha thing although I think he lacks the mental maturity for that.

I got tired of this plot in the books, but what I sensed was guilt and self-loathing for what happened to her - what he allowed his father to do to her.  As if he could have stopped it.  Since the show has dropped that whole story - I'd rather they never revisit it.  In the books, I just hope GRRM gets Tyrion out of his funk and on to being important again.

[FemmyV]

 

Then why did she show HIM the dagger before she even discussed it with Ned? Why did she go on and on to Ned about how he should trust Littlefinger, that he's like a little brother to her, etc?

 

Seriously, any examination of Cat's character, as she is written and portrayed on the series, only has one conclusion: she would have outed Jon's identity and presence the first instance she thought it would bring her leverage to getting what she wants. My guess is, that would have happened when she was trying to get Renly and Stannis to stop knocking heads. "Hey, you two - don't want to get along? Let's talk about door number 3."

 

 

Stannis didn't like Renly and considered him a traitor...and the facts are that Renly turned against him. So in a very weird way, in spite of the cowardly method, in spite of the kinslaying which didn't endear him to me to say the least, it didn't make me irreversibly hate Stannis. Because it was still coherent with his extreme, radical, ruthless views of right and wrong as a certain conception of the law.

 

Stannis's views on what's right and what's wrong, at this point, have an easily identifiable slant to what's right for Stannis. Cause, duty and all. I think Renly was right to go over his head and, was, in fact, a good judge that Stannis wouldn't make for a good king. All the stuff with Melissandre eventually bore that out, but Renly grew up with him, he knew what the bannermen were thinking. Stannis wouldn't be able to hold the throne for long. I suspect those with enough power and money to own an army would, sooner or later, get tired of Stannis' form of justice.

 

re: Frey -

 

Making a deal with him in the first place in itself would be stupid then. They should not have trusted him.

 

Better yet, they should not have renegged on the deal they made. Whoever called Talisa an anachronism was on target; a pretty girl of a respectable house gets to follow soldiers' encampments, as a woman, and choose her sexual partners without getting raped? That there's 1960s Miss Free Love and Robb got duped, big time.

 

 

  So I am guessing then that everyone is okay with Sansa's marriage to Tyrion.

 

Aside from the part where his family assassinated half of her family, Sansa would have done okay with Tyrion. As the daughter of a disgraced house and a political prisoner, she could have done — and eventually did — far worse. With Tyrion, Sansa would have a husband who, in spite of his own disdain for it all, would have happily, winkingly faked the courtly manners that meant so much to her. And, by all reports, the sex would be pretty good.

[Hecate7]

Not everyone is okay with it, but I certainly am. There aren't very many like him. Most people do not look at the world with a critical eye the way he, Jon Snow, Danaerys, and Arya do.

[Oscirus]

Tyrion wasn't even ok with his wedding to Sansa. It was admittedly the safest she's been since she left Winterfell, but she still lost her identity and was forced to marry into the family responsible for the death of her father.

 

On a strange OT note of Sansa's three marriages/proposed marriages, Ramsey was the only one that actually wanted to get married.

[John Potts]

FemmyV Stannis's views on what's right and what's wrong, at this point, have an easily identifiable slant to what's right for Stannis. Cause, duty and all. I think Renly was right to go over his head and, was, in fact, a good judge that Stannis wouldn't make for a good king

 

 

That's the sort of thinking that caused the Wars of the Roses* (appropriately, since it's the historical inspiration for ASoIaF)! Once you get away from "The King by right of descent" and start talking about "The best choice to be King" you open up a whole bigger can of worms. We (assuming most people reading this believe in democracy) might feel "the people" should choose who leads them, but they're not being asked - instead it's the people with the biggest armies deciding (as a result we have the Boltons as Wardens of the North and the Freys as Wardens of the Riverlands - probably most of their subjects last choice). And as soon as you start introducing he idea that Kings could or should be deposed if they turn out to be lousy, you open the way for every upstart Lord to start saying "Well I'd make a better King than you!" and you have a recipe for decades of war.

 

* In a nutshell, Henry Bollingbrooke deposed his cousin Richard II and declared himself King Henry IV. He held on by being a Tywin-esque vicious bastard, but his Grandson Henry VI reaped the whirlwind when he lost England's French territories and was himself deposed by his cousin Edward (who became King Edward IV). This was accompanied by 30 years of (admittedly non-continuous) war

[FemmyV]

And as soon as you start introducing he idea that Kings could or should be deposed if they turn out to be lousy, you open the way for every upstart Lord to start saying "Well I'd make a better King than you!" and you have a recipe for decades of war.

 

.. and so they did. Any number of times. Renly wasn't just an upstart lord - he was Stannis and Robert's brother, having served on Small Council

Edited July 4, 2015 by FemmyV

[Chris24601]

Well, and let's not forget that the only reason Robert was king was because of a rebellion against the rightful king and his heir. The precedent for usurping a bad king through violence was already set by Stannis' older brother... is it any wonder his younger brother would do the same?

Heck, the whole point of trying to assassinate Dany and the killing of Rhaegar's young children was to try and wipe out anyone with an actual legitimate claim to the Iron Throne (and probably to punish the family who took his betrothed from him).

[polyhymnia]

Plus, without any of Aerys II's children or grandchildren left alive, Robert *is* closest to the throne by bloodlines because either his mother or grandmother (I think grandmother) is a Targaryen and most of the rest of the Targaryen line was wiped out right around Rhaegar's birth.

 

(I want to know who is supposed to be representing Henry Tudor and Henry Tudor's mother.  Of course, he doesn't have a character by character tie-in to the War of the Roses, but it would be interesting to know.  I guess Dany is a possibility, except she's too closely related to Aerys.  Also, Aerys's wife should have been a powerful leader in her own right if he's supposed to be Henry VI.  I have to say that the more backstory I read - World of Ice and Fire for example -  the more irritated I am that so much of the history is really ripped out of English history.  I griped about it a little in the unpopular opinions thread)

[Chris24601]

You're correct... part of the reason for the purge was to make Robert's claim as strong as possible. If the air of legitimate descent rather than simply right of conquest is the heart of Robert's claim to the throne though, then everyone backing him is backing a known usurper so long as a more legitimate claiment to the Iron Throne exists.

 

Basically, the whole thing is a mess that basically needs a 'reset button' to untangle. Either its "Rule by Right of Conquest" and anyone with a strong enough army is the legitimate king (which makes Tommen as legitmate as Robert ever was) or its "Rule by Bloodright" and an illegitimate usurper has been sitting on the throne since Viserys and Dany, who have a stronger claim have been known to be alive all this time.

 

Ironically, if he is honoring the last wishes of his sister in the role of "Queen Mother (and therefore Regent)" to protect the legitimate heir to the throne from the wrath of the usurper by any means necessary then Ned's been the only one actually loyal to the legitimate heir the entire time (Well, technically Jon is too, since you can't really betray yourself all that well).

 

My guess is that Jon Snow is going to be the eventual answer that cuts the Gordian Knot... the legitimate heir to the throne by bloodright (if he is the legitimate son of Rhaegar then his claim eclipses Dany's), but is also likely be proclaimed king by popular ascent of the survivors after saving the realm from the White Walkers and so will not need to claim "right of conquest" as the source of his authority (opening himself up to challenges from anyone who could assemble an army from now until the end of his dynasty's reign).

 

By contrast, every other claiment basically has to rely on 'right of conquest'... even the most legitimate known heir (Dany) plans to take and hold the Iron Throne by force. Jon's the only potential candidate who might be able to unite everyone under one banner without actually needing a pre-existing army to do it.

 

Although if GRRM really wanted to mess with us, the greatest ironic ending to the story would be if, after the White Walker crisis has passed, that Jon, like Cincinnatus and Washington, refused the permanent power offered to him and just went home to Winterfell to raise a family.

[MadMouse]

Plus, without any of Aerys II's children or grandchildren left alive, Robert *is* closest to the throne by bloodlines because either his mother or grandmother (I think grandmother) is a Targaryen and most of the rest of the Targaryen line was wiped out right around Rhaegar's birth.

 

(I want to know who is supposed to be representing Henry Tudor and Henry Tudor's mother.  Of course, he doesn't have a character by character tie-in to the War of the Roses, but it would be interesting to know.  I guess Dany is a possibility, except she's too closely related to Aerys.  Also, Aerys's wife should have been a powerful leader in her own right if he's supposed to be Henry VI.  I have to say that the more backstory I read - World of Ice and Fire for example -  the more irritated I am that so much of the history is really ripped out of English history.  I griped about it a little in the unpopular opinions thread)

 

I don't think there's a direct parallel like the Dance with Rhaenyra and Aegon being Stephen and Matilda. Jon Snow is one, so is Edric Storm. Jon works if you believe he'll marry Dany in which she plays the Elizabeth of York role. Faegon could be one too but he seems more in line with Perkin Warbeck.

[FemmyV]

Plus, without any of Aerys II's children or grandchildren left alive, Robert *is* closest to the throne by bloodlines because either his mother or grandmother (I think grandmother) is a Targaryen and most of the rest of the Targaryen line was wiped out right around Rhaegar's birth.

 

(I want to know who is supposed to be representing Henry Tudor and Henry Tudor's mother.  Of course, he doesn't have a character by character tie-in to the War of the Roses, but it would be interesting to know.  )

 

part of the reason for the purge was to make Robert's claim as strong as possible.

 

Purging was very Tudor. At some points GRRM steps off the Roses page, IMO because Robb / Talisa sure did look a little Edward/E. Woodville to me.

[SeanC]

Purging was very Tudor. At some points GRRM steps off the Roses page, IMO because Robb / Talisa sure did look a little Edward/E. Woodville to me.

Well, Talisa wasn't GRRM at all.

[AshleyN]

Martin obviously draws a lot from English history, but I'm not sure that trying to draw 1:1 comparisons is the best idea. It seems to me that for the most part he likes to mix and match when creating his characters (at least for the main series, I haven't read any of the extra material). For starters, as FemmyV said, Robb definitely seems to have a lot of Edward IV in him, but Edward and his brothers also bear some resemblence to the Baratheons. He also seems to have drawn inspiration for both Stannis and Tyrion from different elements of Richard III's story. A lot of people see Margaery as an Anne Boleyn stand-in, but there's some Catherine of Aragon mixed in there too. And if the Blackfyre theory about Aegon is correct, he could end up being some kind of weird Henry Tudor/Perkin Warbeck combination.

Edited July 7, 2015 by AshleyN

[Hecate7]

Well, Talisa wasn't GRRM at all.

 

True, but Jeyne Westerling was, and she actually WAS a Lannister honeypot placed by her mother as part of a deal with the Lannisters.

[MadMouse]

True, but Jeyne Westerling was, and she actually WAS a Lannister honeypot placed by her mother as part of a deal with the Lannisters.

 

That's why I always argue that Sybell Spicer is the worst mother in the series. Her children are already looked down on because of her low birth. So her grand plan consists of pimping Jeyne out to Robb. Kevan turned down Jeyne for one of his sons already so I can't see being the widow of dead rebel king who's family is thought to be wiped out will raise her standing. Her oldest son gets killed in the process and so would have Jeyne had Robb brought her like the Freys wanted. And her huge reward for all this Joy Hill who was already promised to a Frey. Too bad she didn't inherit her grandmothers gift for prophecy. 

[Constantinople]

Well, and let's not forget that the only reason Robert was king was because of a rebellion against the rightful king and his heir. The precedent for usurping a bad king through violence was already set by Stannis' older brother... is it any wonder his younger brother would do the same?

There's a slight difference between overthrowing a mad man under whom no one is safe, not even the great families of Westeros, and starting a civil war because your older brother has the personality of a lobster.

[BlackberryJam]

There's a slight difference between overthrowing a mad man under whom no one is safe, not even the great families of Westeros, and starting a civil war because your older brother has the personality of a lobster.

Except that Robert didn't go to war to keep Westeros safe. Robert went to war because Rhaegar took his precious Lyanna from him. It was Jaime who overthrew the mad man to keep people safe.

Robert went to war for a woman...or perhaps because his ego was so damaged by the woman he loved going off with another (that whole story is unclear.) Renly went to war with Stannis for ego. Are they really that different?

[benteen]

The war was over Lyanna.  But I think overthrowing Aerys would have been justified as well when he decided to execute a ruling Lord and his heir without a trial and then demanded the head of both Robert and Ned.

[BlackberryJam]

The war was over Lyanna.  But I think overthrowing Aerys would have been justified as well when he decided to execute a ruling Lord and his heir without a trial and then demanded the head of both Robert and Ned.

I totally agree that Aerys needed to be put down, but disagree that Robert did it for any level of noble reason. Therefore, Robert did set a precedent for overthrowing a king based on ego and flimsy reason, even though that king sucked. So Renly trying to overthrow Stannis based on ego and a flimsy reason is just typical Baratheon behavior.

[SeanC]

Except that Robert didn't go to war to keep Westeros safe. Robert went to war because Rhaegar took his precious Lyanna from him. It was Jaime who overthrew the mad man to keep people safe.

Robert went to war for a woman...or perhaps because his ego was so damaged by the woman he loved going off with another (that whole story is unclear.) Renly went to war with Stannis for ego. Are they really that different?

No, Robert went to war because the king had murdered several of the kingdom's most powerful nobles without due process or provocation, and had sentenced Robert himself to die despite his not having done anything.

Stannis went to war because he was rightfully the king under the laws of the time. He had given Renly no cause to deny his position.

[Constantinople]

Except that Robert didn't go to war to keep Westeros safe. Robert went to war because Rhaegar took his precious Lyanna from him. It was Jaime who overthrew the mad man to keep people safe.

Robert went to war for a woman...or perhaps because his ego was so damaged by the woman he loved going off with another (that whole story is unclear.) Renly went to war with Stannis for ego. Are they really that different?

Robert didn't go to war until after Aerys demanded that Jon Arryn turn over Robert and Ned Stark. That was after Aerys burned Lord Rickon Stark alive and executed Brandon Stark for asking what was going on with Rhaegar & Lyanna.

[Avaleigh]

To hear Robert talk about it though I feel like he made it clear that it was all about Lyanna for him.

[BlackberryJam]

Which ALL occurred because Brandon Stark demanded Rhaegar be held accountable for stealing Lyanna. And Robert always characterized the war as all about Lyanna. Robert was not fighting for some noble cause and even he didn't pretend he was.

[FemmyV]

If anything, Stannis' later behavior bore out the justness in Renly's cause.