S02.E10: Palindrome

[Lonesome Rhodes]

 

I also got tired of the speechifying.  The worst was the guy going on and on and on about where he got the name Tripoli.  I'm sure someday that information will become important, but I thought it was completely unnecessary.

There certainly was a lot of speechifying.  Some of it resulted in all-time classic lines.  Some, not so much.

 

I was growing quite tired of the speech by the guy in the park, as well.  And then...it turns out he was a true prophet.  He warned Ohanzee (Tripoli) that all empires necessarily fall.  As smart as Ohanzee was, he ignored him.  What happened to Ohanzee and the Fargo mob?  A brutal fall at the hands of Malvo.  One dude brought the whole thing down. One.

 

So, for me, that last speech was as great and important as any in the first two seasons.

[AuntiePam]

It also stood out to me that just an episode or two earlier Floyd went on about all the children sleeping upstairs,yet when Mike and the kitchen brother go into the Gerhard home there's nobody there except the cook. Any ideas where all of the other family members went?

 

Yeah, that puzzled me too.  In the first or second episode, we saw two young boys running up the stairs -- never saw them again, or any other children.  Maybe extended family gathered after Otto had his stroke and then they went home.

 

I think non-combatants were sent to their own homes after the shooting war started.  For sure they went home after the house was shot up. 

[Cosmocrush]

I really recommend doing a binge watch as the story really unfolds and connections are stronger. Overall, I really enjoyed the series I did get a little tired of all of the pontificating that certain characters did (especially the guy at the end giving Hanzee a new identity). Now I want to rewatch the first season to look for the story continuities.

That makes sense.  During the pre-season promotional interviews I remember Ted Danson saying that this season "was like a 10 hour movie" and I had planned to wait and watch all at once but of course I  couldn't wait.     I liked this season so much better than last season but I don't really know why.  I guess all the violence kind of shocked me in S1 but the shock must have worn off because this season was probably just as violent. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Cosmocrush

[shapeshifter]

I liked this season so much better than last season but I don't really know why.

I loved both seasons equally, but then I have never had a problem identifying with male characters even though I'm a female, and, although I don't have any statistics, I would not be surprised to discover that those who liked season two better were predominantly female. Season 2 had Peggy, Betsy, Floyd, Simone, and Noreen--all distinct characters, whereas season 2 had a barely defined Molly.

[Inquisitionist]

I would not be surprised to discover that those who liked season two better were predominantly female.

 

Most male critics seem to give S2 the edge as well.  My husband already likes S2 better and he's only seen the first 4 episodes.

[MrWhyt]

I get that -- that's the literal meaning -- but was there a metaphorical meaning?  Maybe the metaphor comes in at the end, the scraps on the fence in the alley.  Building and changing and everything building to that end .  . .  scraps, blowing in the wind?   

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[shapeshifter]

Most male critics seem to give S2 the edge as well.  My husband already likes S2 better and he's only seen the first 4 episodes.

I haven't rewatched the first season, but IIRC, season 2 has more humor, which could be another reason why some prefer it. My coworker, who avidly watched season 1, said she hadn't watched season 2 because she wasn't in the mood for something so "dark," to which I responded that it had more humor. But am I correct about that?

[AuntiePam]

I think you're right, but then I don't remember much about S1.  I remember Bilbo killed his wife, Tom Hanks' kid was threatened by BBT, and there were locusts in a supermarket and fish falling out of the sky.  And something about a dentist and a supermarket king.

[Desperately Random]

This will be my final post on the topic, but I'll just point out that all these character beats could have been achieved without the character's final "smackdown" coming during what seemed to be a heartfelt speech about the difficulties of being a modern woman. Again, the writers chose THAT particular sentence for her comeuppance.

If it had been Hanzee in the car and he'd been explaining how racism was part of the piece of the puzzle that had turned him into a stone cold killer, and he'd been dismissed the same way, people would react much differently. Ditto Mike. Why is that? Is it because being a murdering mobster in the Fargo 'verse is inherently cooler than being a flaky, complaining woman?

The big difference between Hanzee and Peggy was that we actually saw several instances of him being subjected to abusive behavior because he was an Indian. His actions at the bar were a direct result of the ongoing abuse he had endured for probably most of his life. Peggy, on the other hand, did not suffer any abuse that I saw. Not once. Sure, she had disagreements with her husband like any married couple but he was never abusive or domineering with her. He loved her and pretty much let her do what she wanted.

So yes, if Hanzee had been explaining that racism had been a part of the puzzle, I think the audience would have had a different reaction because we saw it happening. We never saw any evidence that Peggy became a killer because of racism, sexism or feminism. We saw that she was a self-centered person and that's why she made the choices she did. So when she tried to cast blame for her actions elsewhere, there was nothing to substantiate her excuses, which is why Lou cut off her baseless claims of being a victim of sexism. He was sick of listening to her bullshit. People died because of her selfish actions.

Hanzee at least had a legitimate gripe. Not that that excuses what he did but at least his complaints were justified.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Desperately Random

[cpcathy]

Peggy felt trapped, she told Hank her house was her mother in law's, that is was a museum of the past. That's the only "abuse" she suffered.

[bpsoup]

I loved this season until the UFO showed up in episode 9.  If it had been a possible UFO, I would have been okay, but having an actual UFO show up was just too ridiculous for me.

[Ohwell]

Peggy felt trapped, she told Hank her house was her mother in law's, that is was a museum of the past. That's the only "abuse" she suffered.

Yes, and if that "abuse" was too much for her, she simply could have left.

[shapeshifter]

We did see Peggy being delusional in the psychiatric sense of the word. I can forgive Lou for losing patience with her inability to stop retreating into her fantasy world long enough to admit she had broken the law (multiple times), had refused help from Lou (multiple times), and as a result, many people, including her husband had died. But I can also see Peggy as the perfect example of someone whose mental illness has made her a danger to herself and others, rather than "evil." Her self-centeredness is, to me, a symptom of her mental illness--specifically her inability to cope with reality whenever something unexpected happens, such as a body crashing into her windshield or her husband dying on the floor of a walk-in freezer from a gunshot wound. She needs to be confined somewhere for the safety of the innocent, but I feel no need to punish her. If she ever achieves mental health, her own feelings of guilt and shame will punish her, and perhaps drive her to make some measure of restitution.

[Ohwell]

Well, Hank said she was "touched" and I think he was right on the nose.  I've got no problem with her being locked away in a mental institution.  I'm just glad she didn't get away with no consequences at all.   

[becauseIsaidso]

Just finished watching the entire season again....saw a lot I missed the first time around...I had been hoping Hanzee would come to a better end, for some reason I found myself wishing well for him (and Floyd, for that matter, regardless of her shortsided devotion to the idea/ideal of family)....and I thought it would not have been out of character for him to create a double blind with his new identity...he found one guy to get him a new name, why not find another and trade in Moses Tripoli for something else?  But then, the playground scene blew that hope all to hell...too bad...

[Lonesome Rhodes]

 

But I can also see Peggy as the perfect example of someone whose mental illness has made her a danger to herself and others, rather than "evil."

I'm with ya.

 

It also further damns Constance for taking advantage of her for lewd purposes.

[AuntiePam]

I'm with ya.

 

It also further damns Constance for taking advantage of her for lewd purposes.

 

Constance was damned anyway.  Even if she didn't have sexual designs on Peggy, she would still have been at that seminar, in that hotel. 

 

Constance didn't know the extent of Peggy's disturbance.  The TP theft -- Constance saw that -- chose to see that -- as Peggy being a rule-breaker.  She's a bit of a predator.  I didn't see Peggy giving Constance any signals. 

[Hobo.PassingThru]

I agree that Constance wasn't show dealing with Peggy's off-kilter behavior so she didn't know what she was getting into with trying to seduce Peggy. I don't blame Constance for as much as some people have. Peggy's obsessions went on for much longer than normal. A person Peggy's age doesn't have a basement filled with Beauty and Travel magazines with some to spare for being arranged on kitchen chairs. So, whatever Peggy was dealing with probably predated her even dating Ed.

 

So, Peggy's desires opened her up to possibilities that Constance offered. That's probably obvious. But, as I believe I mentioned before, Peggy was on a level where she didn't get what others understood and no one really get her. For instance, her and Ed saw life progressing differently; they were on divergent paths. But, even when Ed believed she understood his wants for them, she didn't want what he wanted. Maybe that makes her a liar for leading him on, like, her taking birth control pills when he wanted kids. But, she was never really on the same road with anyone expected for the guy she hit.

 

Which brings up an interesting (to probably just me) aspect : Peggy and Ed were going around together in the car. Peggy and Lou went back to Lurvene in a car. She was never in sync with either guy. They always talked past each other. And the one time she made a connection with anyone on the road was the guy she hit, who rode along with her back to her garage without saying a contradictory word to her.

Edited December 25, 2015 by Hobo.PassingThru

[shapeshifter]

Which brings up an interesting (to probably just me) aspect : Peggy and Ed were going around together in the car. Peggy and Lou went back to Lurvene in a car. She was never in sync with either guy. They always talked past each other. And the one time she made a connection with anyone on the road was the guy she hit, who rode along with her back to her garage without saying a contradictory word to her.

Hah! Good point! I guess it could be said she also "connected with" Dodd and Hanzee with the knife and the scissors--speaking of things with points.

Seriously, though, a film studies student could write a paper on just the car scenes in this season, and who was in control. We never see Floyd driving, do we? Back in the 70s it was probably still a given that if a couple were going somewhere in a car, the man was driving.

Slightly OT, in a brief interview with Carole King yesterday morning, she referred to being "actualized" when she first heard Aretha Franklin sing one of the songs CK wrote.

Edited December 25, 2015 by shapeshifter

[becauseIsaidso]

Hmmmmm.....it just occurred to me that in the part of Betsy's vision where Molly is graduating, there is a clear hint that Hank will not still be in the picture. Surely, with his daughter dead, Hank would not miss his granddaughter's graduation...but he's not there....if he were, Lou would have asked him to take the pic of himself and Molly, or the other graduate would have been asked to take a pic of all three - so, sometime between Molly's ages 6 and 17/18, Hank will also pass on and Lou will have suffered the injury to his leg that put an end to his law enforcement career...makes me both kinda sad and looking forward to the next season of Fargo...

[ChipBach]

Yeah - I was looking for Hank too.  Maybe the Aliens got him by then?

[becauseIsaidso]

Maybe all season we've been watching an alien in a Hanzee suit......jes' sayin'...

[SoWindsor]

I know this is not a popular opinion but I just don't get this show at all. Wasn't a huge fan of the first season either.

I wish I could figure out what I'm missing.

I'm a huge fan of good tv. Breaking Bad was my favorite show and I miss it terribly.

I wanted to like fargo but that didn't happen even though I watched the entire season hoping it would change.

[AuntiePam]

SoWindsor, a friend stopped watching after the first couple episodes because she didn't think the show was realistic -- all the violence.  She couldn't believe that the area wouldn't have been crawling with law enforcement after all those killings.  And that was before the body count got really high. 

 

There was realism in the relationships though, the family dynamics. 

[becauseIsaidso]

 

I know this is not a popular opinion but I just don't get this show at all. Wasn't a huge fan of the first season either.

Well, So Windsor, all I can say is, we like what we like, and we don't all enjoy the same stuff....so...go with what pleases you and all is good...'good tv' covers a VERY large area wherein there is room for all of us....I've never seen even one episode of Breaking Bad, but from what I've read, both on the boards and via critical reviews, I may very well want to check it out...who knows, maybe I'll love it and maybe not so much...but I will have expanded my knowledge base in either case...

[cpcathy]

I've never seen an episode of Breaking Bad either, and I haven't watched season one of Fargo. I don't intend to at this juncture. It seems like it may be too dark, even after what we saw on season two.

[shapeshifter]

I know this is not a popular opinion but I just don't get this show at all. Wasn't a huge fan of the first season either.

I wish I could figure out what I'm missing.

I'm a huge fan of good tv. Breaking Bad was my favorite show and I miss it terribly.

I wanted to like fargo but that didn't happen even though I watched the entire season hoping it would change.

SoWindsor, you might be missing the humor. It's very dark and not generally LOL funny, but it keeps it light (for me).

But humor is very subjective, so it might not be something you can relate to. I was about Peggy's and Betsy's age in 1979, so that might be why I can see humor.

BTW, one of the things I loved about Breaking Bad was the humor.

[Christina]

As a 39-year-old mixed race Black and Native American woman, who grew up outside of Rapid City, SD and not only faced racism from adults but witnessed extreme racism and sexism in adults by other adults, I can say without any doubt that if Hanzee or Mike was in the backseat of the car and that exchange took place, with him saying that he didn't mean for it to happen, wondering why he (Rye) had to step out in front of the car, and in response to Lou calling Rye the victim, started a diatribe about how he was a victim first by being born with pigment in his skin, to excuse his action of driving home with Rye in the windshield and the subsequent acts, I would have no issue with Lou pointing out that people died.

 

We would be having the exact same discussion because I just don't think there is an underlying -ism here. It made sense for Lou the character to point out that people died to Peggy the character. He tried to help Peggy as soon as he figured out what happened, and she continued to make bad decisions. She then tried to blame them on being a victim because she was born a woman. I do not accept that excuse, and would not accept it from Mike or Hanzee.

 

Perhaps I am desensitized by my life experiences and from a horrible job as a paralegal working on defending employers in sexual harassment suits, but I do not see an -ism here. Peggy is mentally unstable and her bad decisions were based on that, not on being born a woman. I've read on other sites how the sexism is so ingrained in our culture that we don't realize it, and feel like I'm back in a woman's studies class arguing my position that I don't think Margaret Cho's comedy is funny because I don't find raunchy humor funny, and being told I would like it if it was a man saying it. No, I wouldn't. Then on this site it is suggested that if the conversation was between Mike or Hanzee and Lou instead of Peggy and Lou, I would see the point. No, I won't. I see it as a character beat for Peggy in the overall story, to explain her mental instability.

 

I'm afraid this will come across as argumentative and I don't mean it to be. I didn't take the comments here as argumentative, either. I just can't seem to get my point typed out without it sounding brusque, and I wanted to respond.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Christina

[WearyTraveler]

As a 39-year-old mixed race Black and Native American woman, who grew up outside of Rapid City, SD and not only faced racism from adults but witnessed extreme racism and sexism in adults by other adults, I can say without any doubt that if Hanzee or Mike was in the backseat of the car and that exchange took place, with him saying that he didn't mean for it to happen, wondering why he (Rye) had to step out in front of the car, and in response to Lou calling Rye the victim, started a diatribe about how he was a victim first by being born with pigment in his skin, to excuse his action of driving home with Rye in the windshield and the subsequent acts, I would have no issue with Lou pointing out that people died.

 

We would be having the exact same discussion because I just don't think there is an underlying -ism here. It made sense for Lou the character to point out that people died to Peggy the character. He tried to help Peggy as soon as he figured out what happened, and she continued to make bad decisions. She then tried to blame them on being a victim because she was born a woman. I do not accept that excuse, and would not accept it from Mike or Hanzee.

 

Perhaps I am desensitized by my life experiences and from a horrible job as a paralegal working on defending employers in sexual harassment suits, but I do not see an -ism here. Peggy is mentally unstable and her bad decisions were based on that, not on being born a woman. I've read on other sites how the sexism is so ingrained in our culture that we don't realize it, and feel like I'm back in a woman's studies class arguing my position that I don't think Margaret Cho's comedy is funny because I don't find raunchy humor funny, and being told I would like it if it was a man saying it. No, I wouldn't. Then on this site it is suggested that if the conversation was between Mike or Hanzee and Lou instead of Peggy and Lou, I would see the point. No, I won't. I see it as a character beat for Peggy in the overall story, to explain her mental instability.

 

I'm afraid this will come across as argumentative and I don't mean it to be. I didn't take the comments here as argumentative, either. I just can't seem to get my point typed out without it sounding brusque, and I wanted to respond.

 

Word!

 

Would you give me your post's hand in marriage?

[Dev F]

This will be my final post on the topic, but I'll just point out that all these character beats could have been achieved without the character's final "smackdown" coming during what seemed to be a heartfelt speech about the difficulties of being a modern woman. Again, the writers chose THAT particular sentence for her comeuppance.

 

But would it really have been better if Peggy just said something crazy and Lou rebuked her, without her ever having a chance to express any of the legitimate grievances that contributed to her downfall? Then the writers are just knocking down a straw man. It seems to me that it's more meaningful for them to say, essentially, "You're right that the world has unreasonable expectations for women, but it doesn't mean it's okay to let a bunch of people die."

 

I think my main disagreement is with the notion that Lou's rebuke somehow invalidates Peggy's preceding comments. I'm wary of an argument that seems to boil down to "Well, I thought what she said was right and I sympathized with her in that moment, but I don't think the show's creators wanted us to." It was a beautifully written monologue, beautifully performed, and I don't think that happened accidentally -- I think we were supposed to both see the truth in what Peggy was arguing and understand that it doesn't justify a wanton disregard for other people's lives.

[Milburn Stone]

If it had been Hanzee in the car and he'd been explaining how racism was part of the piece of the puzzle that had turned him into a stone cold killer, and he'd been dismissed the same way, people would react much differently. Ditto Mike. Why is that? Is it because being a murdering mobster in the Fargo 'verse is inherently cooler than being a flaky, complaining woman?

 

To be fair (and I'm not sure this will make you any happier with the portrayal), Peggy was a flaky, complaining woman from the first episode. That's who she is. In addition to being totally awesome in other respects.

 

The show, in both its seasons, has had no shortage of women who are straight up admirable and/or strong and/or truly self-actualized. So it's not like in making Peggy a troubled flake the show was making a political point about women.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[polyhymnia]

To be fair (and I'm not sure this will make you any happier with the portrayal), Peggy was a flaky, complaining woman from the first episode. That's who she is. In addition to being totally awesome in other respects.

 

The show, in both its seasons, has had no shortage of women who are straight up admirable and/or strong and/or truly self-actualized. So it's not like in making Peggy a troubled flake the show was making a political point about women.

I agree.  Things didn't work out for Floyd, but she had no problem slipping in and being the actual boss of the family.  She was blinded by maternal love for Dodd more than a little, but she had leadership skills and courage.  I actually hated her death more than any of the others.  You cannot admire her too much - she is involved in organized crime and has no issue with people killing for her - but she was the one character I thought deserved a different ending.  Maybe jail, maybe laying low for a while and rebuilding.

 

Betsy is, in some respects, as good a detective as her Dad and her husband (comes to some conclusions quicker, has great insights, finds overlooked evidence) and is quietly competent in spite of being in the middle of cancer treatments.  I think the show handled that in a very subtle way - Molly is getting her police instincts not just from Dad and Grandpa but also from Mom.  She reminds me of so many women from that era who believed in equality and were equals in their partnerships in spite of not having a career away from the home.  Many of them wanted more for their daughters, but not necessarily because they hated their own fate.

 

Noreen is trying to better herself through reading.  Obviously a smart kid, but like most 20-somethings reading philosophy and literature, she is embracing big ideas without the experience to see how they apply to actual life.  I'd love to know how she turns out.

 

ETA:  Was Mike Milligan sitting in front of a selectrix (sp?) typewriter in his terrible little office?  I was hoping so but haven't rewatched the episode yet.

Edited December 29, 2015 by polyhymnia

[AuntiePam]

ETA:  Was Mike Milligan sitting in front of a selectrix (sp?) typewriter in his terrible little office?  I was hoping so but haven't rewatched the episode yet.

 

He was.  A blue one, in fact. 

 

If I remember correctly, the Selectric came in blue, gray, black, and red.  The little ball that moved -- called an "element" -- looked like metal but it was plastic.  Found that out when I dropped one and one of the little points broke, making it unuseable.  Those things were expensive to replace -- I'm thinking $50-$60.  The elements came in different font styles.  If you wanted to switch to italics, or go from 10 pt to 12 pt, you switched elements. 

 

But no moving platen, which meant you could put your glass of Pepsi right next to the typewriter without worrying that the moving platen would knock it over.

 

I loved those typewriters -- managed 120 wpm in typing class. 

[Ohwell]

They also came in green.  We had one in my office. 

[shapeshifter]

Was Mike Milligan sitting in front of a selectrix (sp?) typewriter in his terrible little office?  I was hoping so but haven't rewatched the episode yet.

He was.  A blue one, in fact. 

 

If I remember correctly, the Selectric came in blue, gray, black, and red.

Thanks for that tidbit. Did you have to have a large screen to see it was a Selectric? (I watch on an iPad Mini.)

They also came in green.  We had one in my office.

I think I can picture it.

[AuntiePam]

Thanks for that tidbit. Did you have to have a large screen to see it was a Selectric? (I watch on an iPad Mini.)

 

 

Didn't need a large screen -- the Selectric is very distinctive.  There were other electric typewriters but they were fat and bulky, compared to the Selectric. 

[Funzlerks]

How are Hahnzee and Peggy even comparable? One has murdered dozens of people on purpose, and the other accidentally killed someone and then covered it up. Except it turned out he wasn't dead, so her husband killed and dismembered him. How is Peggy morally responsible for anything beyond that? The Gehrardts and the like are responsible for the disgusting things they do.

It does worry me that the female characters on this season consisted of Peggy, who got told off by Mr. Perfect, a bunch of murdered Jezebels who overstepped themselves and had to be put down, Camu-lite, who got told off by Saint Cancer, and Mrs. perfect who knew that she was sooooo perfect with her perfect family and she could die happily and quietly like a good mom. She was so weak by the end she couldn't even function, really, but she could still perform emotional labor for the men in her life.

I can't find Peggy even on par with Lester. Lester kept killing beyond survival. He didn't have Ed to help him out, but he also wasn't suffering from actual, verified hallucinations and delusions. I cringe that Peggy could be called a sociopath when she most certainly did have real feelings about Ed and saved him and she is on the same show with dozens of actual male sociopaths.

P.S. Mike sucked and the office scene sucked more. He seemed like he was on a different show. Season 1 forever!

Edited December 31, 2015 by Funzlerks

[cpcathy]

Ok, then.

[AuntiePam]

Funzlerks, I get your point about the female characters, but except for Hank and Lou and maybe ShitCop at the end, the males didn't fare much better.  There were stereotypes all around -- maybe not stereotypes, but types.  The blowhard Dakota sheriff and his crew could have come from a Smokey and the Bandit movie.  Dodd the violent bully, Rye the little man who wants to be a big man, Charlie the kid who wants to be treated like an adult. 

 

I thought Bear, Hanzee, and Karl were the most unique of the male characters. 

[redapplecigs]

Late to the party, but I just finished binge watching this show over the course of 2 days. I have quite a few disjointed thoughts about this episode and the whole of season 2.

As some have mentioned, I felt the pacing of this episode was off - scenes and monologues went on too long. The finale felt like a let down given the fast paced, chaotic awesomeness of the preceding episodes.

I don't understand the point of the aliens. Their inclusion ended up feeling like a somewhat ridiculous deus ex machina.

I call bullshit on the narrated exposition that Hanzee's true motives can never be known. Hanzee is a fictional character in a fictional world - his motives can and should be known by the writers, and should be made known to the audience at least, if not the other characters in the world of the show. It ended up feeling like lazy (enjoyable, but still lazy) writing.

I cannot get over how much I loved Kirsten Dunst in this role. I would not have guessed how wonderful she could be when given interesting material.

I'm surprised to see a debate about whether Peggy is mentally ill. She was clearly shown to: 1) Be a hoarder, which I believe is one manifestation of OCD, a deadly serious mental illness; and 2) Be delusional. We see her have multiple hallucinations and conversations with people who don't exist. We also have Hank clearly spelling it out for the audience - Peggy is a bit "touched".

I won't repeat the many excellent posts about the sexism in that final scene between Lou and Peggy. But I will say that as I was watching it, Lou's response seemed harsh and dismissive - so much so that it took me out of the scene. We all know that people have died, but Lou still got to deliver his long winded, important man story about "man's burden", and yet Peggy gets cut off a few sentences into her own story. It just felt off to me. Having said that, I do think it would have been unrealistic for Lou to respond with sympathy or empathy - his response felt true for a privileged, middle-class male in 1979. His response felt true to his character, but left me feeling yucky about what the show was presenting to me in that scene.

Lastly, this season left me with a feeling of wasted potential for a lot of the characters. I felt like there were oceans of stories left to tell about Floyd, Simone, Bear, Charlie, Hanzee, etc. This season set up some pretty amazing characters and then didn't have the time to tell all of their stories.

Final notes: Jean Smart was fantastic in this role - I loved watching her as Floyd; Yay for child Mr. Wrench and child Mr. Numbers making an appearance; and I don't think it was Lou doing the narration from the true crime book - the narrator had a British accent.

I will definitely be back next season.

[AuntiePam]

redapplecigs, the narrator was Martin Freeman.

 

I totally agree that there could have been more time spent with these characters.  The writers did a good job with the time they had.  Rewatching helps me notice the little character-building things that flashed by me the first time, like Floyd looking at the wall by the phone, with the marks showing the boys' growth. 

[ChipBach]

I don't understand the point of the aliens. Their inclusion ended up feeling like a somewhat ridiculous deus ex machina.

I cannot get over how much I loved Kirsten Dunst in this role. I would not have guessed how wonderful she could be when given interesting material.

I'm surprised to see a debate about whether Peggy is mentally ill. She was clearly shown to: 1) Be a hoarder, which I believe is one manifestation of OCD, a deadly serious mental illness; and 2) Be delusional. We see her have multiple hallucinations and conversations with people who don't exist. We also have Hank clearly spelling it out for the audience - Peggy is a bit "touched".

I won't repeat the many excellent posts about the sexism in that final scene between Lou and Peggy. But I will say that as I was watching it, Lou's response seemed harsh and dismissive - so much so that it took me out of the scene. We all know that people have died, but Lou still got to deliver his long winded, important man story about "man's burden", and yet Peggy gets cut off a few sentences into her own story. It just felt off to me. Having said that, I do think it would have been unrealistic for Lou to respond with sympathy or empathy - his response felt true for a privileged, middle-class male in 1979. His response felt true to his character, but left me feeling yucky about what the show was presenting to me in that scene.

Lastly, this season left me with a feeling of wasted potential for a lot of the characters. I felt like there were oceans of stories left to tell about Floyd, Simone, Bear, Charlie, Hanzee, etc. This season set up some pretty amazing characters and then didn't have the time to tell all of their stories.

Final notes: Jean Smart was fantastic in this role - I loved watching her as Floyd; Yay for child Mr. Wrench and child Mr. Numbers making an appearance; and I don't think it was Lou doing the narration from the true crime book - the narrator had a British accent.

 

 

The way I interpret the alien thing is - there were many very specific UFO sightings during that time around the north.  I think the point was "all these people swear the witnessed UFO(s), who are we to say they didn't?"

 

I agree with Peggy being clearly mentally ill.  Classically mentally ill,  And for a dude who was NOT excited to hear Dunst was in the 2nd season, she freakin killed this part.  I'm sure Kristen was worried about my disappointment - but she was awesome - Sorry Krissy, I was wrong.

 

Not sure a dude that served two tours in Vietnam can be called "privileged".  He earned his status as a state trooper, it is a position of authority, it was his "prowler".  If it was a dude in the back seat he would have said the same thing.  He was just tired of needless death.

 

I can't wait for season three.  They have set a pretty high set of expectations.

Edited January 5, 2016 by ChipBach

[shapeshifter]

Not sure a dude that served two tours in Vietnam can be called "privileged".  He earned his status as a state trooper, it is a position of authority, it was his "prowler".  If it was a dude in the back seat he would have said the same thing.  He was just tired of needless death.

Exactly how I saw and heard it, and I was a woman Peggy's age at that time who also wanted to be independent and actualized (although I never heard or used that term).

[Nutjob]

I'm doing a rewatch of season 1. Interestingly, in episode 6, there's a scene where Lester's brother confronts him about being a suspect in the murders. Lester starts getting flustered, going on about how he's the victim here and what not, and Chaz abruptly cuts him off with, "People are dead, Lester!" Almost exactly like in Lou and Peggy's exchange. 

[Eyeland Baby]

Imagine the surreal experience of watching this episode, then mentally processing it over the course of the next day, then happening to catch "America's Last Days in Vietnam" (I don't remember the exact title) on PBS the very next night complete with the footage and the story, almost word for word, that Lou told about the Chinook pilot downing the chopper in the sea after his family leaps from it onto the Navy ship. I was sitting there going "this is Lou's story! I just heard him tell it yesterday! It really happened?" What are the odds that I would see that documentary the day after seeing the season finale of this (most excellent) show?

[hincandenza]

On 12/23/2015 at 5:18 AM, Inquisitionist said:

Most male critics seem to give S2 the edge as well.  My husband already likes S2 better and he's only seen the first 4 episodes.

Well, I'm a male- although not a critic- just finished season 2 last night, and personally I think I preferred season 1.  Both were exceptional dramas and ensemble acting tour de forces, but season 1 had a noir-ish mood that really worked for me.  I think it comes from the combination of the almost supernatural evil in Malvo, lurking over the story like a fairy tale creature, and from the tension that Lester is never suspected or fingered as the bad guy until the very end.

There's not really the dramatic irony in season 2 the way there is in season 1, with the constant tension of how Lester or others would get caught or killed.  In season 2, Lou and his peeps pretty much have the bulk of the case(s) figured out fairly soon, and then the last half of the season- exciting as it is- is just watching the different tribal factions move into place for the various bloodbath sequences among the Gerhardts/Hanzee, Mike/KC mafia, and the various Wrangler-wearing cops.

Interestingly, Lou in season 1 talked about the pure evil he saw in Sioux Falls in 1979, but... who was he referring to?  Hanzee was out of control on some Rambo-esque revenge fugue by the end, but he wasn't in Malvo's league and other than that it was brutal but not unprecedented gang warfare spilling onto the streets.

 

On 12/24/2015 at 4:53 PM, AuntiePam said:

Constance was damned anyway.  Even if she didn't have sexual designs on Peggy, she would still have been at that seminar, in that hotel. 

Constance didn't know the extent of Peggy's disturbance.  The TP theft -- Constance saw that -- chose to see that -- as Peggy being a rule-breaker.  She's a bit of a predator.  I didn't see Peggy giving Constance any signals. 

She also knew before anyone else that Peggy hit Rye with her car, and never said anything to the police because she seemed to want to use it to manipulate Peggy.  If she didn't have designs on Peggy then Peggy probably doesn't get cajoled into the seminar, and thus Hanzee doesn't find the seminar flyer on the fridge, and never goes to find Constance.  Other people on this forum have complained how weird it was the show did all that talk about the seminar... and then Ed/Peggy end up in the same town for completely unrelated reasons.  Turns out, the only reason for the seminar was so that Hanzee could pick up the lead on Ed/Peggy.  

So in that case, while Constance didn't deserve to die for her sleaziness, if she'd been less of a predator then Constance would have come back alone from her seminar in perfect health, and wondering what the living fuck just happened in Luverne while she was gone. :)

 

On 1/20/2016 at 2:24 PM, Nutjob said:

I'm doing a rewatch of season 1. Interestingly, in episode 6, there's a scene where Lester's brother confronts him about being a suspect in the murders. Lester starts getting flustered, going on about how he's the victim here and what not, and Chaz abruptly cuts him off with, "People are dead, Lester!" Almost exactly like in Lou and Peggy's exchange. 

I think that's a great callback (callforward?), thanks for noticing that.  Peggy was sort of the Lester of this season: the mild, boring, small town person who is capable of awful things, and then trying to justify it with them as the victim.  Lester however always had an ember of evil under the surface which got inflamed by Malvo, while Peggy wasn't ever evil, but mentally ill with at least a profound narcissism and delusion.

I'm also unsure as to what real punishment Peggy will get, although at least if she's tried in Luverne she'll have access to the best (and only) lawyer in town, Karl Weathers.  Heck, she might never see the inside of a prison cell! :)

[cpcathy]

I think Noah Hawley was so smart to give each season its own feel, season 1 really seems to pay homage to the film Fargo, but season 2 pays homage to the bulk of the Coen brothers' catalog. I prefer season 2, just loved it from the first episode onward.  Season 1 seemed "draggy" at the last few hours.

Edited March 22, 2017 by cpcathy

[AuntiePam]

cpcathy, ditto.  I recently tried a rewatch of S1 and was surprised at how "mean" it felt.  While I could connect with the unsavory characters in S2, the baddies in S1 left me cold.

S2 though, I could watch it over and over.  I truly liked most of the characters, sympathized with others -- there was never a time when I went "Crap, here comes ---- ".   Would it be hyperbole to say that every minute was watchable, and rewatchable?

[cpcathy]

I have the season 2 DVDs, sounds like I'm due a rewatch this weekend!

[Slovenly Muse]

Well... not to drudge up a years-old debate about sexism (Just kidding, I'm definitely dredging it up!), but I just caught up on season 2, and after watching 2 seasons of Fargo and 2 seasons of Legion, Noah Hawley's patterns are becoming very evident, and yes, sexism is a big one.

The old adage is "Show, don't tell." I notice that Hawley likes to have his female characters TALK about feminism, or explain how they are oppressed or mistreated, etc... but always in a context that undercuts their message, or denies them real power. For example, Peggy's speech to Lou in the car about "having it all." She has a valid point about the expectations on women in the 70's, but the fact that she is an unhinged person attempting to use "sexism" as an excuse for manslaughter invites us to laugh at or dismiss her as cuckoo-pants. Or Floyd getting to talk a big game about being in charge, sending "3 men" to do a job and then going herself, only to ALSO fail spectacularly, in such a way that invites us to believe that maybe she was wrong to think she had what it took to be a leader. Maybe a man would have done a better job. Or Simone trying to get out from under her father's patriarchal, protective thumb, only to IMMEDIATELY fall prey to enemies of the family who intimidate and manipulate her easily, proving that her dad was right. Hawley seems to set women up on a path to empowerment, and then veer away at the last minute like he can't bear to go through with it (see Season 1, when Molly is sidelined at the last minute, and Colin Hanks gets the triumphant moment of closure with Malvo that SHE never gets with Lester, who she spent all season pursuing, or in Legion, where Kerry is established as the badass of the show, then spends the climactic battle of Season 1 huddled in a corner in need of rescue... or when Melanie tries to convince Syd that they don't owe loyalty to the men who have lied to and abandoned them only AFTER she is subject to psychic manipulation so her valid points just sound like evil mind control.). He'll put the right words in their mouths, but then invalidate them completely through the context he creates. The "show" undercuts the "tell" every time.

Some other patterns and observations:

- Did anyone else notice that most of the men who were killed this season got "blammo- dead in an instant" death scenes, and those who were wounded or had a more prolonged death got to make a brave speech about being ok, or got to have the last word and be "right" with their wives, or fought their attackers, whereas ALL the women who died got prolonged scenes of crying, begging for their lives, or extended suffering (Floyd getting gutted, gurgling in agony for a long moment staring into the eyes of her killer). I see this often in media, and I wish writers/directors would be more aware of it. Even in something like this where men and women are getting killed left and right, performative suffering falls disproportionately on women.

- What's with all the dead moms? Molly has a dead mom, she meets Colin Hanks, who has a dead wife (and a daughter with a dead mom), and now we find out that Molly's MOM had a dead mom! Considering that women have a longer life expectancy than men, and the men left behind here work in the dangerous field of law enforcement, what the heck happened to all these moms?!

- There was some ugly, discriminatory language used here that was not employed responsibly or with a sense of purpose. Can't you tell sometimes when you're watching a period piece, and the characters throw around some ugly racist/sexist dialogue that has nothing to do with the story, but would have been in common usage during that time period, and you just get the feeling that the time period is more of an EXCUSE to use that language than anything else? That was the feeling I got from this season. Yes, people in the 70's were more likely than us today to call a woman "a bitch" or express pride that the US is "over there, killing gooks." But there didn't seem to be much purpose or message behind the use of that language apart from "It's historically accurate, so we can!" It makes me uncomfortable when writers undercut the basic humanity of already-persecuted groups simply to create a sense of place. See Mad Men for how to do this properly (well, better, anyway).

And all this makes it sound like I hated the season. I didn't! As the resident Feminazi of my household, I gotta call things when I see them, and Hawley's patterns become more and more noticeable as I watch his stuff, which makes me more and more uncomfortable, so I gotta get it off my chest. Apart from those features of the writing, I thought the season was tight, the performances spectacular, and the drama solid! I mean, there's something about watching Jesse Plemons dispose of a dead body that makes you feel like all is right with the world. You know?

I'll be interested to see what happens in season 3!