Mothers, Mentors, and Mates: Relationships

[Trini]

So at first Maggie is flirty with Alex, then she only wants to be friends, then she can't "imagine my life without [Alex]"?? Wait, what? Seems Maggie is all over the place. Then again, this is the same show that's pretending the entire first season didn't happen between Kara and James.

[legaleagle53]

On 11/23/2016 at 4:31 PM, Trini said:

So at first Maggie is flirty with Alex, then she only wants to be friends, then she can't "imagine my life without [Alex]"?? Wait, what? Seems Maggie is all over the place. Then again, this is the same show that's pretending the entire first season didn't happen between Kara and James.

What surprises me is that the same people who were convinced that Winn would turn to the dark side after Kara shot him down because he didn't immediately put that rejection behind him and go all BFFs with Kara afterwards aren't automatically assuming the same thing about Alex, even though Alex was just as hurt by Maggie's rejection as Winn was by Kara's.  How is it that a woman scorned is allowed to vent and lick her wounds for a while before making friendly overtures when she's ready, but a man's not allowed to spend at least a few days being hurt, angry, and withdrawn after HE'S been rejected without people calling him immature, controlling, and borderline psychotic because he doesn't immediately accept the woman's lame "I hope we can still be friends" overtures?  Double standard much?

Edited November 25, 2016 by legaleagle53

[stealinghome]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

So at first Maggie is flirty with Alex, then she only wants to be friends, then she can't "imagine my life without [Alex]"?? Wait, what? Seems Maggie is all over the place. 

Nah, she's just into Alex but knows it's not a good time for them to get together, so is trying hard to keep their relationship just friends. But I think she clearly feels more.

[Trini]

52 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

How is it that a woman scorned is allowed to vent and lick her wounds for a while before making friendly overtures when she's ready, but a man's not allowed to spend at least a few days being hurt, angry, and withdrawn after HE'S been rejected without people calling him immature, controlling, and borderline psychotic because he doesn't immediately accept the woman's lame "I hope we can still be friends" overtures?  Double standard much?

In this case, it's because Alex is higher in the hierarchy of Important Characters. However, I will give the show some credit: in the episode after, Winn and Kara weren't talking -- but then they were working together again in the episode after that.So he had at least one episode to be hurt; one more than I was expecting.

[Starfish35]

2 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

What surprises me is that the same people who were convinced that Winn would turn to the dark side after Kara shot him down because he didn't immediately put that rejection behind him and go all BFFs with Kara afterwards aren't automatically assuming the same thing about Alex, even thought Alex was just as hurt by Maggie's rejection as Winn was by Kara's.  How is it that a woman scorned is allowed to vent and lick her wounds for a while before making friendly overtures when she's ready, but a man's not allowed to spend at least a few days being hurt, angry, and withdrawn after HE'S been rejected without people calling him immature, controlling, and borderline psychotic because he doesn't immediately accept the woman's lame "I hope we can still be friends" overtures?  Double standard much?

Well, in fairness Alex doesn't have the same background expections.  In the first season we weren't quite sure whether Winn was intended to stay as a friend or eventually become Toymaker 2.0.

[MarkHB]

On 11/23/2016 at 8:17 PM, legaleagle53 said:

What surprises me is that the same people who were convinced that Winn would turn to the dark side after Kara shot him down because he didn't immediately put that rejection behind him and go all BFFs with Kara afterwards aren't automatically assuming the same thing about Alex, even thought Alex was just as hurt by Maggie's rejection as Winn was by Kara's.  How is it that a woman scorned is allowed to vent and lick her wounds for a while before making friendly overtures when she's ready, but a man's not allowed to spend at least a few days being hurt, angry, and withdrawn after HE'S been rejected without people calling him immature, controlling, and borderline psychotic because he doesn't immediately accept the woman's lame "I hope we can still be friends" overtures?  Double standard much?

To me, it's what everyone else said (especially when we weren't sure what Winn's arc was ultimately going to be), plus it's not Real Life, it's the Conventions and Expectations of Melodramatic TV Shows.

[Trini]

This 'article' is basically clickbait, and not really spoilery, but it just reminded me that I really hope they aren't going to try and do ANOTHER quadrangle -- because that worked sooo well last season. Can it even be considered a 'love quad' if the show has already made it clear James and Winn are out of the running? If they have unresloved feelings, that's your fault, Kreisberg.

[Trini]

From the Spoiler thread:

8 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Quote

I don't think the men are taking over at all. At worst you could make a case for Mon-El (although he's only here to give Kara her own arc), but James (even with Guardian) and Winn have been sidelined this season, IMO.

The worst thing to be on this show is a human male.  Winn has been nothing more than snarky tech support, James is an excuse to keep some non-superpowered fighting in the show, and Snapper is pointless with the shift away from Catco.  Pretty much every important storyline is being pushed by a woman (Alex, Lillian) or an alien male (J'onn).  The ironic thing is that Kara isn't the one doing the pushing.

...

Kara does have her new reporter job as an arc -- but that's sporadic. I'm hoping that rescuing Jeremiah from Cadmus becomes an arc for both Kara and Alex.

[Miss Dee]

I'm just gonna tiptoe in here and leave my modest proposal of SuperHeat (Supergirl and HeatWave) as a crackship couple. Hey, if human men don't turn her on, he's barely human so it could totally work out! Not to mention the fact she could kill him a thousand different ways is likely to turn him on rather than the opposite.....

[MarkHB]

In some of the Season 2 threads there have been comments that Mon-El isn't Kara's type.  While I'm not going to argue that Mon-El is a good pick for her, I have to wonder: do we even have a good idea as to what Kara's even looking for in a man?  To date, I can only recall 4 guys she's even attempted anything with:

• The bozo in the pilot who ditched her and gave his number to the waitress on his way out.  My big takeaway from that was that Kara is so inexperienced at dating that she doesn't even have a cover story for "where were you born?"
• Jimmy, who was basically "studly dude sets her heart aflutter" until she decided that wasn't something the writers wanted her to pursue
• Adam, for maybe a weekend
• Mon-El.

So, from what we've seen in the show, and outside of the messages the show is trying to deliver (female empowerment, etc.), do we know anything about what Kara is looking for?  Does she even know yet?

[BooBear]

46 minutes ago, MarkHB said:

So, from what we've seen in the show, and outside of the messages the show is trying to deliver (female empowerment, etc.), do we know anything about what Kara is looking for?  Does she even know yet?

Here is what I get out of Kara's relationships so far... she is most likely to get feelings for someone who in some way knows of her powers. Though this didn't work with Winn. The thing that drives me nuts about Kara is that she doesn't seem to have ever decided for herself what she wants. Though I suppose in my 20s I too had no strong opinions about what I wanted and let others sort of choose me.  My guess on Mon-el is that she just is so attracted to the fact that he knows who she is and is an alien she is willing to overlook how different they are as people. 

I never got the sense she was all that into Adam. Again, I think she was doing it mostly because he was into her and he was Kat Grant's son. 

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I think Kara herself has absolutely no clue what she wants beyond "something." Which makes sense to me--I'm sure she got all of 0 dating experience in high school, as she was still learning to control her powers and be "normal," and it seems clear that in college and post-college pre-the show, she was locked up so tight because of her secret that she didn't have any meaningful relationships with people her age outside of Alex. So I can buy Kara not knowing what she wants in a guy because she's never gone out and done the dating to figure it out. The problem with Mon-El is that *she herself* keeps articulating all these reasons why they're a poor fit (and they are, they're really terrible to and for each other) and yet continuing on with the romance because he's the hot bland white male CW lead.

In terms of what I personally think Kara needs in a romantic partner: I think she needs someone who is a True Believer. It doesn't have to be what she believes in (though that would help), but her eventual partner needs to have a purposeful life, a larger goal they're trying to attain. They can't just be drifting aimlessly through life like "whatever." Kara has (or at least used to have) larger goals and I can't see her with someone who doesn't have their own goals. I also think Kara probably needs someone who is, in their own way, as devoted to the public/common good as she is. It's not a coincidence that her best relationships--Alex, Cat, J'onn--are all with people who have devoted their lives to protecting society or shaping it for the better. I just can't see her respecting someone who leads a selfish lifestyle, or a lifestyle where they could do more but choose not to. (I don't think her friendship with Lena is as compelling as her relationships with Cat, Alex, and J'onn, BUT note that Lena checks those boxes--she's got goals and a clear sense of civic responsibility, which is one of the reasons she and Kara work well together.) Oh, and she needs someone who either knows her secret or who she could see herself telling her secret to, of course. 

in terms of personality, as others have noted, Kara works best when she's bouncing off of people who are prickly/grumpy/abrasive on the outside but good on the inside (again--Alex, Cat, J'onn). Kara can't respect someone who's not a good person, but she's so sunny and wholesome she needs some contrast to be at her most interesting. Winn was too similar to Kara to spark and James too blandly good/nice. Mon-El is the exact opposite of what she needs personality-wise: blandly good and fun on the outside, on the inside a real jackass.

Edited February 21, 2017 by stealinghome

[BooBear]

2 hours ago, stealinghome said:

In terms of what I personally think Kara needs in a romantic partner: I think she needs someone who is a True Believer. It doesn't have to be what she believes in (though that would help), but her eventual partner needs to have a purposeful life, a larger goal they're trying to attain.

And they have to be confident enough in themselves not to be threatened by Kara being Supergirl (and has their own thing to be doing while she is off saving the world). I always got the feeling that she and James would never work because he would not be able to over come his feeling small next to her... a fact confirmed by his need to be "guardian." I had thought Mon-el might be good for that because they share similar powers but he is sooooo not. It just stuns me that he continues to act like he knows anything when he has been on this planet for 6 months and basically ruined several missions by not paying attention to what Kara told him to do.  I hate to say this since this is against CW law... but i would be putting my money on someone older. Max Lord could have worked but they chose to go the wrong way with the character. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by BooBear

[Xander]

Mon-El may not know much about Earth but in this instance, he knew more about Mxy than Kara did. 

And I don't find him to be a jackass on the inside. Not at all. He's someone who is adjusting to a culture vastly different from his and someone who's always had different priorities.  As for being Kara's match, I'll leave that for the show to decide but I don't think it's a horrible thing for someone to prioritize their loved one's safety over everyone else's, even if that person is a superhero and wants them to act differently. Kara is someone who didn't even start saving the world till she needed to save a loved one's life.  It might not be heroic, but it's not malicious. 

[emarasmoak]

I think that Kara is being very clear about some things that she wants in her partner. She wants a partner who will work with her and who will listen to her. She wants someone who wants to be a hero, protect people and be thoughtful, brave and selfless. She wants someone who respects her and makes her happy.

Is Mon-El like that right at the moment? Not completely, but I am quite confident that he will be. It is called character development and it is clearly Mon-El's arc for this season.

Kara thinks that Mon-El can be that person (see 1st paragraph above). She thinks that he has potential. She expects something much much better from him that what she is getting right now but is willing to give him a shot and see if they work together. Because when she was trying to write him off he proved that he is not as thoughtless and selfish as she thought he has clearly said that he is willing to improve and working to get there. All of this is in the writing of the season.

Yeah, I know that the trope about the bad boy that is changed for the better for the good girl is old and many people do not like it because it may be potentially dangerous and probably is not healthy in real life. Said that, I don't think that Mon-El is has ever been as bad as some people say he is (this is not a Damon Salvatore situation where he was a complete monster). I don't find him abusive: he is headstrong and likes to do his own thing but as anyone he should be allowed to make his own decisions; if they are about dealing with bad guys, I agree that as Kara is the boss and expert about being a hero and he should listen (he has just promised to do it better), even if sometimes he has knowledge about aliens or other planets that is helpful to deal with whatever situation they are in. I found that his reactions everytime that he thought that Kara didn't want a relationship with him were absolutely respectful and mature (amazing considering that he has said that this is the first time that he has had real feelings about anyone and probably never had a relationship as there were arranged marriages in Daxam). He has consistently showed admiration to Kara and respect to everyone including women. He has had sometimes selfish, arrogant, coward or lazy behaviours but if he is really coming from a life of hedonism and privilege (if he is the prince) I am amazed that he is the way he is right now as he is not worse than a normal non-heroic real life person. Also there have been several occasions when he had had several moments when he has been heroic, selfless, humble, brave and working to achieve something so we know that he can do better and is already changing for the best. Also I agree that he does not feel threatened about her superiority as he just likes to awe and express admiration about Kara's heroics or qualities. His motivations from being a hero are clearly blurred with his feelings from Kara but again I find it quite impressive knowing that he has only been in Earth from a few months and really why should he be protecting anyone? I am not sure that I would do it if I were in a completely different planet. Also noting that Kara hid herself for years before deciding to be a hero and the main reason for that the first time was saving Alex. I don't see why Mon-El shouldn't have some months to find out what he wants to do. He is also proving that he is starting to be self-aware about his defects, and he is also expressing his desire to do better. All of this potential growth will clearly be achieved at the end of the season (e.g. he will decide to be a hero for himself, proving that he will be every bit the hero and great person that she hopes he will be).

I also think that it is good for her to have a partner that is not afraid to disagree with her (I find that a partner that challenges your views makes you grow) and is able to articulate their own views. It is also good to have someone trying to take care of her because she is so selfless that gets into danger much more than she should.

And I also thing that she wants to be with him because he makes her happy and probably because she can be herself (Kara Zor-El from Krypton, an alien with powers and a hero life) with him much more than with any other potential love interest than she knows.

Mon-El is probably not a perfect match for her right now. But love is not about ticking several boxes of a form with your ideal qualities in a mate and choosing the best match among several candidates.

At the end of the day, it is HER choice. If she is willing to give Mon-El a chance, I am willing to watch it, as I find them highly entertaining and see a lot of chemistry between them. They are at the moment just starting a relationship to find out if it works (they haven't promised each other eternal love forever). I see that Kara is much happier and alive with him than with any other potential partners. I find that he is not a bad person, and is also someone who is completely in love with her and will take care of her. I trust Kara to deal with him everytime that he shows behaviours that she doesn't like (it is not as she is not telling him in high detail everything that she wants him to change). Also I believe that he is growing to be a very good partner and person and a hero. An also yes, there is clearly attraction there (which is something that everyone wants to have in their partners). As I don't find him bland or boring (I think that he is charismatic, funny and interesting) I am just enjoying this second season much more than the first.

Regarding his secrets, as far as he knows everyone in Daxam is dead, so if he is the Prince it doesn't necessarily matter. Also it is clearly a plot device to create relationship problems in the future. Not bothered about this. If Kara doesn't like this, she will deal with it.

There may be other candidate to love interest that tick all these boxes that also have chemistry with her? Maybe (not sure about that).

Is James her perfect partner as described above? I don't think so. It appears to me that his reasons for being Guardian are much more about others finding him a hero (why would he write an article about him if this wasn't the case) than helping others. Also didn't like him using his power as CatCo CEO to get his paper over Kara's. I don't like the way he treated Winn when he was hurt. I didn't like when he manipulated Kara to tell Lucy about her being Supergirl so his girlfriend wouldn't be mad with him (season 1). I didn't like all his behaviour when he was with Lucy but also had Kara pining over him. I also agree that he is threatened by her superiority in the hero business and this would be a problem between them. I don't find James selfless. In addition to that, I have always found him incredibly boring and bland, and Kara with him behaved like a 12 years old child trying to impress her hot high school crush so I never liked her in this relationship. Never saw any chemistry among them.

I would have liked her with Winn but she wasn't into him. He has several of the qualities that I mentioned above.

Is Lena or Cat her perfect partner? I am not sure that any of them are more selfless or heroic than Mon-El (Lena has been heroic and probably could be considered selfless if she doesn't end up being a villain and I see the chemistry among them). I wouldn't have minded a pairing with Lena but I enjoy a pairing with Mon-El much more (my personal preference although I get why others like her with Lena more). According to show canon Kara is not lesbian (she said so in the first season) although it could happen that she is bi and shows attraction for a woman in the future. At the moment, what I see is that Kara finds Lena a wonderful platonic friend (she really needed a female friend), but I see what could be considered to be hints of attraction from Lena. Also not sure about Lena's potential feelings about aliens (she was trying to develop an alien detector early in the season). For having a real relationship, she would need to know who Kara is.

BTW, I find that Chris Wood is gorgeous, but all of her other potential love interests (James, Winn, Lena & Cat) are stunning as well.

I respect that others may have different opinions.

Edited February 22, 2017 by emarasmoak
grammar, spelling

[angora]

While I'm still conditionally rooting for Kara and Mon-El, they're not working out as well for me as I hoped they would in their earliest interactions.  I like their chemistry together, I like that they seem to be working things out together as they go along, and I'm in camp who doesn't find Mon-El boring, but I think the story direction the show has been taking with these two is a lot less interesting than it could have been.

I was really intrigued by how harshly Kara reacted when she first discovered that Mon-El was from Daxam.  Not that I'm like, "Bigoted Kara - yay!" (obviously,) but for someone who's generally so warm, open, and compassionate, it was really interesting to me to see her confronting the biases she learned as a child on Krypton.  I was hoping to see them spending more time understanding how to see a Kryptonian/Daxamite as a person rather than a preconceived notion, not in a preachy way but in a messy human (or rather, alien) way.

Part of the problem here is that I feel the show has put too much emphasis on Mon-El needing to reform his Daxamite ways in order to be someone Kara could go for, and this unfortunately feeds into the perception that "acting like a Daxamite" is a bad thing, as Kara initially believed upon meeting Mon-El.  A lot of posters have expressed annoyance at Mon-El being a "fratboy dudebro," and the show has been reinforcing this idea by giving us things like "Mon-El has stopped drinking because he's trying not to be such a waster" and "Mon-El cares about Kara, whereas before he just objectified women while he sexed them up."  I'd wanted a more complex picture of what Daxamite cultural norms are like, something that doesn't have an immediate Earth equivalent (fratboy dudebro,) even if it might seem that way at first glance, something that's not inherently bad.

The way I would've liked to have seen it, I draw an analogy to how time is perceived in different cultures.  In parts of the world, time is far less regimented than it is in the US and flows more flexibly as circumstances/relationships call for.  In these cultures, being late to work because a family member needed a ride somewhere is perfectly valid and someone wouldn't necessarily need to let their boss know ahead of time or apologize for not being punctual.  Granted, if that same person moves to the US or another country that's more clock-oriented, they're going to have difficulties if they don't adapt to that culture's prevailing attitude about time, but that doesn't mean their own approach is irresponsible/unprofessional/disrespectful.  Their relationship with time isn't worse; it's just different.

That's what I'd have liked to see for the "hedonism" on Daxam, a culture that places high value on having a good time and has few hangups about sex.  I mean, they had a functioning society, so they must have had a workable balance between revelry and getting things done, but the show often seems to present Mon-El's natural inclination toward being a waste of space, and it's only by being more responsible and less concerned with his own instant gratification that he becomes "worthy" of Kara.  Not only is that more boring and more along the lines of the "bad boy 'fixed' by a good woman" trope that posters have complained about, but it suggests that Daxamites are less than humans or Kryptonians and that Mon-El needs to change, not merely to get by with the way things work here, but to be a good person, and I'm not a fan of that.  Although we get tiny hints of something less cut-and-dry, like Mon-El being confused as to why Alex coming out would be any sort of big deal, the prevailing attitude is mostly "Mon-El's cultural norms = bad, Kara's cultural norms = better."  (Note:  not that I don't want Mon-El to have flaws that he needs to work on, but I get uncomfortable when it feels like "being Daxamite" is supposed to be one of them.)

The other thing I'd hoped for in a Kara/Mon-El relationship - a deep connection over their shared experiences as alien refugees from the same star system, with Kara helping Mon-El acclimate to a confusing new culture and Mon-El providing an outlet for Kara to express both the positives and negatives of what it's like to be an alien on Earth - has mostly fallen by the wayside as well.  There was a little of it at the beginning when Kara was trying to be Mon-El's mentor and we still get the occasional shared moment, like reminiscing about having visited the same planet, but not much.

Overall, I feel like these two characters have a lot of potential together that the show is either fumbling or choosing not to take advantage of in favor of something a lot more typical and (for me) less engaging.

[Trini]

11 hours ago, angora said:

The other thing I'd hoped for in a Kara/Mon-El relationship - a deep connection over their shared experiences as alien refugees from the same star system, with Kara helping Mon-El acclimate to a confusing new culture and Mon-El providing an outlet for Kara to express both the positives and negatives of what it's like to be an alien on Earth - has mostly fallen by the wayside as well.  There was a little of it at the beginning when Kara was trying to be Mon-El's mentor and we still get the occasional shared moment, like reminiscing about having visited the same planet, but not much.

Yeah, I'm not into Kara/Mon-el, but I also wouldn't have minded seeing more of this.

[stealinghome]

25 minutes ago, Trini said:

Yeah, I'm not into Kara/Mon-el, but I also wouldn't have minded seeing more of this.

There's also the fact that Mon-El should still be grieving his planet--no way should he have shrugged off the destruction of his *whole world* nearly as blithely as he did. I'm also not into Mon-El but him processing his grief, anger, pain, etc over the loss of Daxam could have provided an awesome (acting) opportunity for Kara to have to re-work through some of those emotions herself, and could have given Melissa Benoist an opportunity for an absolute showcase--I think she's at her best when they delve into Kara's pathos. If wishes were fishes....

[statsgirl]

On 2017-01-09 at 4:30 PM, Miss Dee said:

I'm just gonna tiptoe in here and leave my modest proposal of SuperHeat (Supergirl and HeatWave) as a crackship couple. Hey, if human men don't turn her on, he's barely human so it could totally work out! Not to mention the fact she could kill him a thousand different ways is likely to turn him on rather than the opposite.....

Ticks the boxes people above think she needs -- prickly and abrasive on the outside, working to make the world a better place on the inside.  Not afraid to disagree with her and would keep her on her toes.  Would definitely not turn into a bland, milquetoast relationship.

[Miss Dee]

LOL I was thinking the same thing reading down through the thread! I'm into AtomWave more these days, but even SuperHeat has a better chance of happening than that one....

Which brings to mind: Ray Palmer is probably the most Kryptonian-ish human we're ever going to meet in this universe. I'd love to see Kara comment on that one day. 

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

LOL I was thinking the same thing reading down through the thread! I'm into AtomWave more these days, but even SuperHeat has a better chance of happening than that one....

Which brings to mind: Ray Palmer is probably the most Kryptonian-ish human we're ever going to meet in this universe. I'd love to see Kara comment on that one day. 

Wasn't Ray the one who said that Kara reminded him of his cousin in the Invasion! crossover?  I know that was supposed to be an inside joke/Easter egg reference to the most recent Superman movies, but it would certainly be funny to see that Easter egg applied in reverse.

Kara: You know, Ray, you remind me an awful lot of the people I knew on Krypton!

Edited February 26, 2017 by legaleagle53

[tofutan]

I could have sworn that there have been a lot of portrayals that hinted that Kryptonians tended to be a bit cold (I believe there are some portrayals that sort of blame Krypton being destroyed on science/progress getting out of control on Krypton), not quite vulcan like, but more so than humans. And Ray is one of the most upbeat and happiest characters, at least on Legends. 

Yes, in Kara's flashback it's not cold, but let's face it, she's a bit biased. Mon-El I believe called them haughty and stuck up, so that could fit with them being quite disciplined. 

Are we really sure that all of Daxam society was this hedonistic? I got the impression that princely Mon-El was supposed to be hedonistic even by Daxam standards. 

Relationshipwise, Mon-El has been reminding me of a puppy recently, can be cute, can be ill disciplined. Not necessarily the best relationship material even when he's well meaning. The thing is, why does every relationship have to be perfect? Why does every relationship candidate have to have all the boxes checked? Plenty of relationships are somewhere in between perfect prince charming love and abusive. They are just normal. 

Plenty of people enter relationships just to see where it goes, because they are lonely, or because a good looking person's attention flatters time. Most of them don't end up with abuse and murder. There is no reason why it has to be all or nothing, perfection or despair for Kara. 

I get the impression that Mon-El is way more into Kara than the other way around (for example based on his confession to her that he has never felt anything similar) and in a weird way this makes him "safer". We had Kara herself admit that she is worried of getting hurt. And we have the episodes where she rejected working with James and wanted to work with Mon-El instead because Mon-El is stronger and with James she was worried for his safety. To her dating Mon-El might be less of a risk. If it turns out well and she falls for him good. If it doesn't turn out well, nothing lost because she likes him but wasn't that head over heels in love with him and since he is a bit of cad, not too mad if he gets hurt a bit. All of this might make Mon-El an attractive proposition to Kara to sort of get her "training wheels" attempt at a relationship. And why not, Kara is a social person. Having a relationship has it's good and fun aspects. Why not try to have that and see what it's like, even if maybe not all boxes are checked yet. 

As for good girl/bad guy relationships, I tend to not like a ton of them. So far at this point, I would put them emotionally closer to something like Spike/Buffy maybe? Rather than something like Chuck and Blair for example (yes Blair started out with bad girl traits but imo by the end they had firmly settled in a hand wringing good girl/bad guy relationship). Granted, Spike/Buffy were very different because they only got together due to very particular circumstances she found herself in. But I mean mostly that he was more in love with her than the other way around and she still had her own life as a hero that imo ultimately she didn't compromise on too much. 

To me the worst kind of good girl/bad guy is when she is pining over him and he treats her badly or doesn't pay enough attention. Mon-El also hasn't, too our knowledge done anything close to what characters like Spike or Damon have done. He is so far closer to a normal careless jerk, but at this point it is imo balanced out that she doesn't seem particularly hurt by it. My interpretation would change a lot if we saw Kara crying her eyes out over every single slight of his. But so far I don't see this. 

Last but not least, I wouldn't mind a "Woman of Steel, Man of Kleenex" relationship. I think it is super regressive that relationships where the man has powers and the woman has none (like Barry/Iris or Lois&Clark) are still okay, but with the woman the man has to be as good as her or better. This is why I have this deep hate for the Wonder Woman/Superman ship. It's just deeply offensive to me. She is the most powerful woman in the world, so people who ship her with like one of the few guys who is bigger in importance and stronger than her just anger me. Yes, most writers just deal with this situation by writing it as that the normal power man is just too emotionally weak to be able to deal with it, it's him, it's not her. But it's just imo a covering up of the underlying belief that a woman could never find a man hot who is weaker than her/who is just emotional support, the way a lot of girlfriends and wives of male superheroes are. And as far as I'm concerned, making the strong woman gay instead and giving her a human powered girlfriend is just cheating around the issue, that apparently a weak woman who is just "the soul of the team", "the emotional and moral anchor of the hero" is good enough, but a man with all the same traits is not good enough and instead just a loser.

Now I don't think that Supergirl has to be the show to do it well. But IMO using "man of kleenex" as an argument against a relationship just shows how deeply ingrained male/female stereotypes still are. Woman can be heroes and strong and everything, but god beware a guy not be as strong or stronger. 

Ok, rant over. 

[legaleagle53]

2 hours ago, tofutan said:

Last but not least, I wouldn't mind a "Woman of Steel, Man of Kleenex" relationship. I think it is super regressive that relationships where the man has powers and the woman has none (like Barry/Iris or Lois&Clark) are still okay, but with the woman the man has to be as good as her or better. This is why I have this deep hate for the Wonder Woman/Superman ship. It's just deeply offensive to me. She is the most powerful woman in the world, so people who ship her with like one of the few guys who is bigger in importance and stronger than her just anger me. Yes, most writers just deal with this situation by writing it as that the normal power man is just too emotionally weak to be able to deal with it, it's him, it's not her. But it's just imo a covering up of the underlying belief that a woman could never find a man hot who is weaker than her/who is just emotional support, the way a lot of girlfriends and wives of male superheroes are. And as far as I'm concerned, making the strong woman gay instead and giving her a human powered girlfriend is just cheating around the issue, that apparently a weak woman who is just "the soul of the team", "the emotional and moral anchor of the hero" is good enough, but a man with all the same traits is not good enough and instead just a loser.

Now I don't think that Supergirl has to be the show to do it well. But IMO using "man of kleenex" as an argument against a relationship just shows how deeply ingrained male/female stereotypes still are. Woman can be heroes and strong and everything, but god beware a guy not be as strong or stronger. 

Ok, rant over. 

Remember, though, what "Woman of Steel, Man of Kleenex" really means.  It has nothing to do do with the man's emotional strength.  It has to do with his physical strength and whether or not he could even survive a sexual encounter with a partner who is invulnerable and who could easily accidentally kill him in the throes of passion.  Mon-El could (and did) survive such an encounter, since he is also invulnerable and is at least as strong and as fast as Kara is.

I know that the comics have recently established that Superman/Lois have proven that such a relationship can work; she's clearly survived not only having sex with Superman, but even bearing his super-powered son.  I think I'll have to read up on that to see how the "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" conundrum was solved.  If it works for Superman, it should work for Supergirl.

[tofutan]

To me "woman of kleenex" always felt like it was also playing with the double meaning of "all Lois Lane contributes is crying in big panels". 

But yes, of course there is this purely physical element, which I personally always saw as really lame teenage and pre-teenage boy ideas about sex. Though I think it should be said, to be fair, that at least this argument was used to champion ships like Clark/Diana or Clark/Maxima (sometimes imo even by the comcis themselves). Which of course to me is still creepy, to approach relationships as "Superman couldn't possibly be truly happy and fulfilled unless he can bang with all of his superstrength and speed". It always struck me as the sexual version of comic book fans arguing about which superhero would beat who in a fight or race. [don't get me started that the power levels of characters, especially characters like Superman and Supergirl is usually always "whatever the current context requires"]

And it's also debatable how applicable that argument would be anyway with the genders flipped, since from what I remember a lot of it focused on shooting sperm and superpowered kicking babies in the womb. 

So or so, I think all of these points are moot anyway when genuinely arguing about the viability of a ship. 

And yes, obviously there is some element of this in Supergirl and Mon-El since this was hinted at in a very small way (Kara's comment about not breaking his nose by accident). And while this is all fun and games, I would argue that this is still pretty meaningless in regards to the long term viability of a pairing, especially in the context of a tv show, whether other things matter rather than just whether the couple is happy together, like: does it make good story? Is it interesting to watch? Does it gel with the other elements of the show? 

I've said previously that I think Kara strikes me as being less deeply into the relationship than him. I personally wouldn't mind at all if the show even hinted more explicitly that yes, lust and just wanting to bang is some element. IMO it wouldn't be taboo or villainized for women to also have somewhat superficial lusty feelings. Mon-El is nice looking, obviously willing, quick with the compliments, would it be so bad if Kara was evaluating him not just based on whether he truly checks all the boxes, but also because she wants to get laid? Human beings are motivated by lust too. Plenty of people have a first boyfriend/girlfriend that they experience a lot of things with, but it's not forever. I don't think something like that should cause Kara to get slapped with the big BAD ROLEMODEL hammer. 

Yes there are dangers in real life if people pursue relationships because they are just needy for a relationship and don't want to be alone. But should warning of this really extend of "you are not even supposed to want it, be curious about it and willingly enter it unless it is perfect"? Like I said, I'm deeply convinced that people enter relationships for shallow reasons all the time and while surely plenty of them end in breakups, not all of them end in traumatic break ups and abusive relationships. 

Not that I think that Kara has no feelings for Mon-El at all. There is obviously something there even if it might be smaller and slower developing on her side compared to how it was on his. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by tofutan

[wilnil]

On ‎3‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 6:40 PM, tofutan said:

To me "woman of kleenex" always felt like it was also playing with the double meaning of "all Lois Lane contributes is crying in big panels". 

It sort of sounds like that, but it didn't come from the comics world at all. "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" was the title of an old (1969) tongue-in-cheek essay by science fiction writer Larry Niven on the subject of "how can we ensure that new Kryptonians are born so they can take over for Superman when he gets old?" A lot of it revolved around the various difficulties involved with a superstrong, invulnerable man trying to conceive a child with a human woman. (Niven did briefly touch on the fact that there was a Kryptonian woman also on Earth, but only to point out that she was Superman's cousin, so "only a cad" would suggest that as a solution; he never got into the mechanics of the Kryptonian/human problem from Supergirl's perspective.)

Edited March 15, 2017 by wilnil
Edited to add Wikipedia link, correct publication year

[Bort]

On ‎3‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 5:05 PM, legaleagle53 said:

Remember, though, what "Woman of Steel, Man of Kleenex" really means.  It has nothing to do do with the man's emotional strength.  It has to do with his physical strength and whether or not he could even survive a sexual encounter with a partner who is invulnerable and who could easily accidentally kill him in the throes of passion.  Mon-El could (and did) survive such an encounter, since he is also invulnerable and is at least as strong and as fast as Kara is.

I know that the comics have recently established that Superman/Lois have proven that such a relationship can work; she's clearly survived not only having sex with Superman, but even bearing his super-powered son.  I think I'll have to read up on that to see how the "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" conundrum was solved.  If it works for Superman, it should work for Supergirl.

I submit that Superman and Supergirl are different in time spent on Earth + growing up on Earth. Clark arrived as an infant/toddler and suffered through all his growing pains while simultaneously learning to control his strength around humans, which gives the benefit of a better learning curve than Kara, who arrived mostly grown and has had less time to acclimate. Kara even commented that she's broken four noses via kissing, so she clearly is wary of her control.

[MarkHB]

On 3/16/2017 at 10:38 AM, kariyaki said:

Kara even commented that she's broken four noses via kissing, so she clearly is wary of her control.

As a guy, I occasionally wonder if Kryptonian Kegel exercises are a thing.  And then I become very, very afraid.

[kalamac]

If I can find on tumblr again (I only saw it yesterday), I'll post it, but there was a whole thing about how the comics and the other shows (Lois & Clark, Smallville) have always been proving that the Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex thing isn't a thing, and pointing out how often Clark and Lois were having sex, even when he had his full powers, so the idea of Kryptonians not being able to control themselves while being intimate with humans is a myth.

[MarkHB]

Well, I think Niven's essay was really trying to apply the traditional "think through what this would really mean" science fiction methodology to Kryptonians.  Shows, and even the comics themselves, aren't going to let that get in the way of a good story, however.

[kalamac]

Found it.

http://luthorbitch.tumblr.com/post/158520518422/cvtgrant-therearecertainshadesoflimelight

[tofutan]

In case this isn't obvious, I personally don't care for Man of Steele/Woman of Kleenex (again, I can write you pages and pages on how much I loathe Superman/Wonderwoman as a pairing and the underlying Woman of Kleenex aspect is one of the central hate factors for me). But just because it is a stupid and gross argument, I think it's pretty obvious that various writers at various points in Superman history have taken it seriously (and btw, I take next to nothing from pre-crisis very seriously as canon, mostly because comics in general were a lot more all over the place back then and it became a trend only later to try make them follow some semblance of logic or have some rules about not going too overboard with power for example).

As pointed out, the Clark and Lois kid was conceived while depowered. And I assume the depowerment was that long so it would last the entire pregnancy, to deal with the "but what if the superpowered baby kicks her in the belly?" argument of Woman of Kleenex. Why would the writer of that story have done that unless they thought the Woman of Kleenex argument had some merit? (or at least to avoid being asked the question constantly, now they can just say: "He was depowered, done!")  

I definitely do remember the movie version and that it wasn't an issue there. 

But in memory a lot of other media was just a bit coy about the idea what exactly Superman and Lois are doing (ie emerging from a bedroom doesn't exactly spell out what type of sexual acts they were doing). BTW, I'm no expert on Smallville, and hence on which episode they are referring, to, but based on the Smallville wiki, I got the impression that Lois and Clark at least started having sex under the influence of power dampening blue kryptonite. And maybe after that, they figured out ways around it. 

In the end: Superman is a long and complicated and often contradictory canon shaped by hundreds of writers with vastly different takes on the character. IMO obviously some writers bought into Woman of Kleenex and others don't. The fact that they had Kara comment on it suggests to me that the writers at least play around with the idea rather than it being just a flat-out  non-issue. It's not about whether it always has to be an issue or whether it should be, it's whether it as issue in this particular interpretation, in this particular universe. And right now I would argue there are suggestions that it might be an issue, or that at least it might be an issue in Kara's head. 

I think Woman of Kleenex should never, never, never ever be a reason not to ship a pairing. Because it is stupid and gross and relationships are not just about sex anyway. I don't find it unrealistic that Kara will eventually figure out that maybe all that superpower stuff doesn't matter as much as she thinks it does. But I would say there have been lines in canon that suggest that it is some issue at least to her.

The canon counterargument is Mon-El himself. Granted, I think we have seen him pursue only one human woman that we know of for sure and there is reason to argue that the deed was not completed (I think he has hinted about other women, but he could have been lying or it could have been alien women from the bar) AND he is canonically not as strong as Kara (as per Winn's power assessment) . Still, point being: when Kara caught him, she seemed to be concerned only about it being inappropriate at work and not really that he might hurt his partner by accident. 

BTW, the arguments also isn't always that it is impossible, but that it might be less fun. Again, this is an impression I got more from the Superman/Wonder Woman shippers who often seem to think Superman would have to be with a superpowered woman in order to screw with full abandon. And again, there were some writers in the comic books who sometimes gave me this vibe they bought into this. That they were playing with the idea that dating a superpowered woman like Wonder Woman or Maxima should be a temptation, at least in the eyes of the reader, even if Superman is too noble to think of it like that. 

Edited March 19, 2017 by tofutan

[miracole]

Watched the Flash crossover musical event...So they're really going with this tru wuv thing for Kara and Mon-el huh?  That's unfortunate. The romantic relationships on this show suck. I'm glad I stopped watching when they destroyed my Alex and J'onn J'onzz  lovin' heart. 

[shantown]

I miss the relationship between the space fam - Alex, Kara, and J'onn. They were the real heart of the show and I wish the focus would return to those three, with everyone else being 2nd (Wynn, Maggie, Mon-El) or 3rd (James, Lena) tier characters. 

[StaceyNotStacie]

I don't mind Kara with Mon-El, but I really like her with Barry. I've never seen any other character look at her the way he did when she was singing at the beginning of the musical episode. 

[Xander]

21 hours ago, Stacey1014 said:

I don't mind Kara with Mon-El, but I really like her with Barry. I've never seen any other character look at her the way he did when she was singing at the beginning of the musical episode. 

Oh, I loved the way he looked at her then. Also, how he softly said her name when Mon-El brought her in. 

[Starfish35]

I've always been a fan of Barry/Kara, since they first met.  I'm not anti-WestAllen or Kara/Mon-El, but Barry and Kara are just adorable like puppies together. 

[KirkB]

On 3/31/2017 at 4:33 PM, Starfish35 said:

I've always been a fan of Barry/Kara, since they first met.  I'm not anti-WestAllen or Kara/Mon-El, but Barry and Kara are just adorable like puppies together. 

I agree Barry and Kara are adorable together, but they're also so much alike. Geeky. Idealistic. Opposites attract is not a hard and fast rule but there is a reason it is popular, at least in fiction. When two characters are so similar they don't bring out new sides or facets of one another. They're basically just reflections. I think Barry and Felicity were the same way.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, KirkB said:

I agree Barry and Kara are adorable together, but they're also so much alike. Geeky. Idealistic. Opposites attract is not a hard and fast rule but there is a reason it is popular, at least in fiction. When two characters are so similar they don't bring out new sides or facets of one another. They're basically just reflections. I think Barry and Felicity were the same way.

Yes; it doesn't even have to be opposites, just someone who complements their personalities.

(Although, I think my personal crack!ship of Barry/Felicity could still work since they've moved away from him being the geeky genius he was when he was first introduced.)

[shantown]

On 5/7/2017 at 5:54 PM, stealinghome said:

I actually have wondered whether the show will flirt with getting Lena and Winn together next season. They sparked fairly well in whatever the bank robber episode was (2x05?), they have complementary interests, and they can bond over NOT wanting to go evil like their parents!

Above quote is from the 2x18 thread, but I'm using it to kick off my "Relationships I Hope They Explore in S3" campaign. With Lena becoming a regular they need to connect her to more characters than just Kara (though I hope that relationship stays strong). If they're going to go the romantic relationship route with Winn and Lena they need to hop into it right away, otherwise it'll end up being a Gizzie situation where George and Izzie just didn't work together as anything other than friends. I'd be fine with romance or friendship, but I agree with StealingHome that there are similarities betwee Winn and Lena that would lead to good character development.

[Trini]

They could also do something with Lena/James since they're both CEOs of major companies in the same city.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Trini

[statsgirl]

I shipped Winn/Lena for a hot moment back in s1 when they hid under the table together but now I like Winn with Lyra.  There's more scope for Jeremy Jordan's comedic talents.

I like the idea Lena/James, especially since they wouldn't have to have them as a couple on much (I'm tired of all the ships on Supergirl).  But I don't think they'll put Lena in a relationship because they like teasing her with Kara too much.

[secnarf]

27 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I shipped Winn/Lena for a hot moment back in s1 when they hid under the table together but now I like Winn with Lyra.  There's more scope for Jeremy Jordan's comedic talents.

I like the idea Lena/James, especially since they wouldn't have to have them as a couple on much (I'm tired of all the ships on Supergirl).  But I don't think they'll put Lena in a relationship because they like teasing her with Kara too much.

If Lena can't be with Kara, then I could actually see her with James. Might give him an interesting storyline, too. I have a hard time picturing Lena and Winn together. Lena/Kara is definitely my preferred pairing.

[stealinghome]

Quote

But I don't think they'll put Lena in a relationship because they like teasing her with Kara too much.

I'm not opposed to the show exploring Lena/Winn or Lena/James, but I think this is probably what will end up happening. Part of the reason the Kara-Lena friendship is compelling is that Kara is Lena's emotional lifeline, the only person constantly in her corner who values Lena for Lena. If they give Lena a romantic interest, they run the risk of jeopardizing Kara as Lena's strongest emotional connection (at least at minimum to the Superfriends), which I doubt they'd want to do. And keeping Kara as Lena's emotional center lets them tease the shippers all day long as a bonus. ;)

[tofutan]

I would be very interested if they found a way to put James in Lena's orbit. Especially since I'm very pessimistic about them finding a way to make CatCo relevant without Cat. I think that would be interesting on its own even if it doesn't turn explicitly romantic. I could see them go for something more tension filled where they work together on something, but there's suspicion going on. And they could finally make use of James position at CatCo, because in theory that should put him in a position of power/relevance in the city. So it would be fairly natural for media mogul James and business mogul Lena to interact over ... things. 

Spoiler

I'm very intrigued that they are gonna apparently do another round of Lena and Winn sciencing together in the finale. I don't expect anything to come out of it but I expect the scenes will be fun. 

Even though I like watching Rhea a lot, I feel like I'm deeply confused about her motivations. Did she really decide spontaneously to take over earth after Mon-El said no to rejoining the family? Why did she kill her husband? Is she lying when she says it's all for the people and it's really primarily about her son? How will she react when Lena probably rejects Rhea's plans for her? 

[nightwing877]

On 2017-5-13 at 4:57 PM, tofutan said:

I would be very interested if they found a way to put James in Lena's orbit. Especially since I'm very pessimistic about them finding a way to make CatCo relevant without Cat. I think that would be interesting on its own even if it doesn't turn explicitly romantic. I could see them go for something more tension filled where they work together on something, but there's suspicion going on. And they could finally make use of James position at CatCo, because in theory that should put him in a position of power/relevance in the city. So it would be fairly natural for media mogul James and business mogul Lena to interact over ... things. 

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm very intrigued that they are gonna apparently do another round of Lena and Winn sciencing together in the finale. I don't expect anything to come out of it but I expect the scenes will be fun. 

Even though I like watching Rhea a lot, I feel like I'm deeply confused about her motivations. Did she really decide spontaneously to take over earth after Mon-El said no to rejoining the family? Why did she kill her husband? Is she lying when she says it's all for the people and it's really primarily about her son? How will she react when Lena probably rejects Rhea's plans for her? 

I still don't know why James as Guardian was needed. James role at Catco should of been enough, especially if he and Kara teamed up on assignments in the field. 

I hope if Catco isn't phased out completely James uses his Catco resources to find a way to have aliens have a voice in the world and using his power/relevance in the city for good. But I feel loosing Cat is why Catco and everyone working their is suffering. Cat's absence shouldn't force to abandon that platform and media exposure for the show. Too bad. 

[tofutan]

CatCo lost its importantance when Cat left. So they needed something for James to do and if it gives them a way to include more action scenes that is a win-win for them. 

If they don't have good ideas for actual reporter stories (they didn't really do any investigative reporting season 1 either, it was really just about Cat getting to deliver speeches/articles and maybe the decision process on which speech or article she decides to drop on the world), then they should just dump CatCo rather than force themselves. IMO it's pretty clear that they really only cared about the Kara/Cat relationships rather than actual reporting stories. If they aren't interested in writing it, then there is no point in forcing it. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by tofutan

[Mellowyellow]

On 5/13/2017 at 4:57 PM, tofutan said:

 

Even though I like watching Rhea a lot, I feel like I'm deeply confused about her motivations. Did she really decide spontaneously to take over earth after Mon-El said no to rejoining the family? Why did she kill her husband? Is she lying when she says it's all for the people and it's really primarily about her son? How will she react when Lena probably rejects Rhea's plans for her? 

I think Rhea is a crazy controlling mother who thinks and convinces herself she's doing it all for her son but really everything is just all about her. She probably spoilt Mon El and gave him whatever he wanted as long as he jumped when she asked him to. The father was no longer subservient so she would not stand for it and killed him. She hates Kara (girl from enemy planet and all) so found a girl she approved of in Lena and forced Lena and Mon El to marry each other. She probably wants them to sit as obedient figure heads while she takes over earth and rules supreme.

Classic crazy evil chinese movie Empress Dowager plot! 

[legaleagle53]

12 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I think Rhea is a crazy controlling mother who thinks and convinces herself she's doing it all for her son but really everything is just all about her. She probably spoilt Mon El and gave him whatever he wanted as long as he jumped when she asked him to. The father was no longer subservient so she would not stand for it and killed him. She hates Kara (girl from enemy planet and all) so found a girl she approved of in Lena and forced Lena and Mon El to marry each other. She probably wants them to sit as obedient figure heads while she takes over earth and rules supreme.

Classic crazy evil chinese movie Empress Dowager plot! 

That's pretty much Rhea in a nutshell.  She herself admitted that the arranged marriage between Mon-El and Lena was just for show, since she only needed their genetic material (which she had already collected from them without their knowing it) to create an heir to the throne through artificial means.

[secnarf]

4 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

That's pretty much Rhea in a nutshell.  She herself admitted that the arranged marriage between Mon-El and Lena was just for show, since she only needed their genetic material (which she had already collected from them without their knowing it) to create an heir to the throne through artificial means.

Wow I completely missed this part.

That's disturbing.

[tofutan]

I just can't shake the idea that if this was Clark instead of Kara and he was crying over some bitchy alien princess he met, nobody would be asking the question about why he was dating her. (remember Clark and the random native American chick from the caves in Smallville?) 

It's not like Winn has a deeper reason to start dating Lyra other than she is good looking and interested in having sex with him.