S11.E08: Just My Imagination

[catrox14]

Since there was so much positive feedback on the episode for the most part, I rewatched the episode thinking maybe I just wasn't watching it from the right perspective. And I'm actually more annoyed than the first time because this is a big ole missed opportunity episode.  

 

A few things that would have made this a deeper and balanced episode for Sam and Dean, not that it had to be 50/50 but maybe a few tweaks to make it less an After School Special and more mature at least for me.

 

Missed Opportunity 1:

 

Sully getting into the bunker: 

 

Sam's subconscious should have been what conjured Sully and allowed for Sully to get into the bunker. It would have served the purpose of highlighting how truly freaked out Sam is on a molecular level about thinking he has to go back to the Cage and how alone he's feeling because Dean is diametrically opposed to even the THOUGHT of Sam going back to the Cage.

 

I think it would have been great for Sam to not really understand that his fears are what conjured Sully until he helped Sully solve the deaths of the other Zannas. Yeah the plot would have to have been tweaked but I'd rather lose plot than character, personally.

 

Dean learning that Sam is so freaked out that he conjured his imaginary friend could have lead to a discussion as to why Dean is so against it on a deeper level than just "because I said so". And Sam could have inquired about Dean's connection with Amara. Yes we've had the "God wasn't there for us" but I dunno I just need MORE of what's going on in Dean's mind right now. And maybe we could have gotten some insight into IF Dean can even articulate his mindset right no re Amara.

 

Missed Opportunity 2:

 

  Sully being more of a juxtaposition(for lack of a better word)to Dean rather than an inapt parallel. 

 

Sully seemed like more of an enabler than looking out for what is best for the child. What I mean is that when Sam wanted to have Marshmallow Nachos and all the candy even though those are probably really bad for Sam, Sully would do that to make him happy.When Sam wanted to run away, Sully was all set to go with him, rather than explain to Sam why running away would be bad for him at that age. I wondered if Sully have permitted Sam to drink grown up juice if it made him happy?

 

Dean, on the other hand, made all manner of mac and cheese and only added marshmallow for variety and Sam liked it. He made Spaghetti-os whilst not great is not marshmallow burritos, and at least cereal had milk, you know? He took care of him in a real way that Sully did not. He failed to protect him against the shtriga but you know that wasn't going to happen again for a long time.

 

And that's why Dean's speech at the end about Sully being there for Sam when Dean wasn't really rubbed me the wrong way. 

Sully could have left whenever he wanted or the moment Sam didn't want or need him anymore.  But Dean had no option for that because of John's directive to Save Sammy and being Sam's actual older brother. Instead we essentially have Dean apologizing for not being there ALL THE TIME and thanking Sully which I don't know why he had to do that in the first place because to me Dean didn't seem to resent Sully.

 

So essentially, I guess I need to write my fixit fic for this episode.

[ahrtee]

 

Short answer: I think Sully was somewhat childlike because that's part of who Zanna are. I think he genuinely wanted what was best for Sam.

 

SueB, I agree completely with your short answer.  I just wish I didn't have to go "talking dragon, talking dragon" so frequently these days (which, btw, I like so much better than "handwave".)  But I still think Sam should take that into consideration (or at least, Sully's lapses of judgment) before following his advice.  But we all know Sam will do what he thinks he has to, no matter what anyone else says.

[mertensia]

But we don't know-do we?-where flashback Sam was. Madison, Schaumberg, IL, LaCrosse-or even someplace closer like Sheboygan or Menomonee Falls (which is not Menomonie) - we don't know how far the bus trip was.

I think Sully probably stuck around longer because Sam was isolated in some ways- even in good places he had to keep his head low and not make tons of friends.

[Demented Daisy]

I wonder if this is supposed to be before or after Flagstaff and the dog named Bones.

[SueB]

Pretty sure Sam was 12 for Flagstaff.

[Demented Daisy]

Not trying to be rude, but where did you find that info, Sue?

[SueB]

No worries. I remembered it from Dark Side.  I'll go check the wiki....

 

Well you were right to question it.  He was 11 for the Thanksgiving Dinner and unspecified for Flagstaff.

Edited December 6, 2015 by SueB

[rue721]

(a) there's no way John would leave Sam alone at age 9, *especially* if he was deemed too young to hunt with them (I don't know when John realized--or feared-- the demon was after Sam, but I think it was before then); (b) similarly, no way John would ask Sam to get on a bus alone (and as for calling the station and telling them...well, that's hardly staying under the radar).

 

I don't think that John didn't want Sam hunting with them out of concern for Sam's safety per se. I think he didn't want Sam hunting with them because he didn't trust Sam to act like a good lieutenant out in the field.

 

Sam's personality has apparently always been a lot more independent and rebellious than Dean's, and my guess would be that John would have been worried that, during a crucial moment in a fight against some monster, Sam would refuse to follow orders or would do things his own way or would even just give John some poorly timed backtalk -- and Sam's disobedience would get them all killed.

 

Somehow, while Sam was at home hanging out with Sully and wondering if he should run off, John decided that he *could* trust Sam to back them up in a fight, and called Sam to come meet them. Judging by the phone call that Dean made to Sam earlier in the episode, I guess that Sam had asked Dean to convince John to let him come join them, and Dean eventually was able to make that happen.

 

If John thought that Sam couldn't even handle hanging out at home without a babysitter, or thought that Sam couldn't even handle catching a bus on his own, though, how in the world could John have trusted him to be his backup while fighting monsters? It made sense to me that John wouldn't be worried about Sam being able to look after himself at the motel or being able to get on a Greyhound on his own, considering the amount of responsibility that John was about to trust him with (I mean, he was trusting him with his own and Dean's lives, if he was going to let Sam go hunting with them).

 

Also, honestly, even in real life, a bright grade-schooler can probably handle getting himself to a bus depot and onto a Greyhound. It's not THAT complicated.

 

Anyway, I agree with SueB that the zanna seemed very childlike. They seemed to live in a world of imagination -- for them, it seemed like there wasn't really a bright line distinction between what they were "just" imagining and what was real. Like how Weems was able to play air guitar so people could hear it, and how Sparkle was a unicorn and Nikki was a mermaid. The zanna actually reminded me a lot of the Lost Boys in Hook. I wouldn't really expect a creature like that to be able to take the practicalities of a nine-year-old's life on the streets into account during a debate over whether the kid should run away. For me, that imagination and whimsy was a lot of the zannas' charm. But of course, everyone's mileage will vary when it comes to how charming you think that is :).

[ahrtee]

I don't think that John didn't want Sam hunting with them out of concern for Sam's safety per se. I think he didn't want Sam hunting with them because he didn't trust Sam to act like a good lieutenant out in the field.

 

Sam's personality has apparently always been a lot more independent and rebellious than Dean's, and my guess would be that John would have been worried that, during a crucial moment in a fight against some monster, Sam would refuse to follow orders or would do things his own way or would even just give John some poorly timed backtalk -- and Sam's disobedience would get them all killed.

 

Somehow, while Sam was at home hanging out with Sully and wondering if he should run off, John decided that he *could* trust Sam to back them up in a fight, and called Sam to come meet them. Judging by the phone call that Dean made to Sam earlier in the episode, I guess that Sam had asked Dean to convince John to let him come join them, and Dean eventually was able to make that happen.

 

If John thought that Sam couldn't even handle hanging out at home without a babysitter, or thought that Sam couldn't even handle catching a bus on his own, though, how in the world could John have trusted him to be his backup while fighting monsters? It made sense to me that John wouldn't be worried about Sam being able to look after himself at the motel or being able to get on a Greyhound on his own, considering the amount of responsibility that John was about to trust him with (I mean, he was trusting him with his own and Dean's lives, if he was going to let Sam go hunting with them).

 

Also, honestly, even in real life, a bright grade-schooler can probably handle getting himself to a bus depot and onto a Greyhound. It's not THAT complicated.

 

 

This may just be my interpretation, but I thought Sam *wanted* to go on the hunt and was sulking because Dad wouldn't let him.  At 9, he'd just learned about monsters the year before and he mentioned he'd been training for a year and I think he really wanted to go to prove himself.  I don't think John thought he would purposely get in the way or argue with his decisions, just that Sam wasn't ready yet for hunting, even (or maybe especially) with his brother (who would likely be spending more time watching Sam than the monster) along.  So yeah, not wanting to take him along makes sense from John's POV.  But on the other hand, if he didn't think he was ready for a hunt yet (and especially if he was worrying about something evil following him) I don't see him leaving Sam alone *yet*--not while there were other options like Bobby and Caleb and Pastor Jim.  And again, yes, a bright 9-year-old can buy a ticket and get on a Greyhound alone, but not without attracting the attention of the ticket taker and station manager and various do-gooders, which I'm sure John wanted to avoid.  Again, YMMV.

[DittyDotDot]

John's always had a weird dichotomy to his parenting. He would haul them around with him to keep them safe, but then also would leave them to fend for themselves for long periods of time. He didn't want them to know about the monsters under their beds, but he also trained them so they could protect themselves. So, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a little bit of John not wanting Sam to start hunting--let him be a kid for as long as he could; not sure if he was old enough and/or ready to hunt; and a bit of a concern whether he could be trusted to always do what he's told and such. 

 

As far as the bus goes: I always assumed John left them in a town close by. Somewhere they were safe from the hunt, but also somewhere he could get back to quickly if there was an emergency. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a two hour bus ride to wherever John and Dean were. Regardless, Sam and Dean aren't your typical kids and I'm sure they could both navigate overnight bus rides by the time they were 7 or 8 years old.

 

Question though: I thought is was Sam who was saying he wanted to run away, I didn't realize (or remember) Sully encouraging the running off? I thought Sully was just encouraging Sam to go out and make some friends and to not go hunting because he thought Sam didn't really want to go even if he said he did. TBH, I kinda zoned out during some of Sam and Sully's talks, though, and I'm not inclined to rewatch it, so I could be way off base on that front.

[ahrtee]

I actually don't remember details of Sam and Sully's talk either (I was under the impression that it was Sully who brought up the idea of running away first, not Sam)...but I do remember Sully standing, all excited, with his little bindlestaff (or whatever it's called) ready to leave, when Sam told him he was going to hunt with his family and he didn't want Sully around any more.  For whatever reason, Sully did try his hardest to get Sam to come with him, instead of joining John and Dean.

 

I agree that John didn't have the best parenting style, though I thought that it was Dean (as he said in AHBL) who wanted Sam to have a childhood as long as possible (but John must have agreed, at least sometimes, because Dean would never have gotten his way if John hadn't allowed it.)  But that seems to go against *John* not wanting Sam along this time and Dean pushing for him to come (though maybe that was Dean not wanting to leave his little brother alone...)  Sheesh.  Never mind.  *talking dragon...*

 

 

[DittyDotDot]

I tend to use "wizards" myself. ;)

[SueB]

Sam said "Ever think... of running away" and then after first suggesting going to school, Sully supported the running away plan.

[rue721]

And again, yes, a bright 9-year-old can buy a ticket and get on a Greyhound alone, but not without attracting the attention of the ticket taker and station manager and various do-gooders, which I'm sure John wanted to avoid.  Again, YMMV.

 

I guess this must come down to geographic/cultural/regional variation, because I can't imagine anyone giving a shit if some random kid wants to catch a bus.

 

I agree that John didn't have the best parenting style, though I thought that it was Dean (as he said in AHBL) who wanted Sam to have a childhood as long as possible (but John must have agreed, at least sometimes, because Dean would never have gotten his way if John hadn't allowed it.)  But that seems to go against *John* not wanting Sam along this time and Dean pushing for him to come (though maybe that was Dean not wanting to leave his little brother alone...)  Sheesh.  Never mind.  *talking dragon...*

 

Afaik, Sam did want to go hunting with them; judging by the phone call in this episode, Sam had apparently cajoled Dean into working on John (on Sam's behalf) to get him to give Sam permission to come. IIrc, Dean has said flat out that he wasn't all that anxious for Sam to stop being a kid. But Dean's a pretty big softy when it comes to Sam, so if Sam begged him to help him out with John, I think Dean probably would have done it, regardless of his own reservations/preferences.

 

Also, I think Dean was basically always the mediator between Sam and John, because he got along with both of them -- so it seems natural to me that he'd be the one to mediate this time, too.

 

I doubt that Dean was constantly hunting full time with John at the point when this episode's flashbacks were taking place, anyway, because at that age, he had to have still been in school. Didn't he stay in school until age 16 or 17? So I think he was off with John and Sam was lounging around the motel 24-7 during this flashback because it was some sort of school break, not because, from then on, Dean and Sam *never* stayed home together while John was off somewhere. I mean, even once Dean was an adult, John was *still* ditching him and going off to work alone (that's the premise of the pilot, anyway!)-- so I assume that John was ditching both of them from time to time for basically their entire lives.

 

As for Sully:  I don't think it even occurred to Sully what kind of life Sam would have been running *toward* as a 9-year-old vagabond -- I think he was just thinking about Sam running *away* from the hunting life. Which he seemed to think Sam didn't want and/or wasn't meant for anyway. Sully's childlike, so he was shortsighted, impractical, and subject to magical thinking. But I think his heart was in the right place, and he really was a friend to Sam. I think the reason that Sam confided in him about the Cage is because Sully has insight into what Sam *feels* (so they're friends). Sully was wrong about what Sam should do as a kid, and he had no idea what Sam should do as an adult, but that doesn't really make him less of a friend imo. All that is a little saccharine, I guess, but not in a way that bothers me. (Same as the age stuff doesn't bother me). YMMV, of course.

[mertensia]

Oh yeah; Dean was always the mediator which is why he learned and learned early that he was the unimportant one in the family and that no one cared about his interests. It's partially why Sam is always surprised at things Dean does or has an interest in. It's partially why John knew that an important thing for Sam was to go to college but the best he could do for Dean was "I want Dean to have a home".

[ahrtee]

I can't really disagree with your thoughts, or (actually) anyone else's here.  All are possible, based on what our own interpretation of the characters.  I do, however, want to clarify my thinking about the bus trip:  you're right that no one would care about a random kid getting on a city bus to go downtown, say, or somewhere within the city limits, especially in daytime (though the first time I went on a NYC subway all alone I was 12).  I think there should be concern if a random 9-year-old went to a Greyhound bus station and wanted to buy a ticket to another city without an adult. (If nothing else, they might think he was a runaway and wouldn't want to get in trouble with cops.)   But since (as has been pointed out) we have no way of knowing how far Sam was actually going, it doesn't really matter.   Besides, I'm pretty sure Dean would have taught Sam all his tricks about telling a good story ('I'm going to my grandma's, my dad is going to meet me there," or something similar.) 

 

I doubt that Dean was constantly hunting full time with John at the point when this episode's flashbacks were taking place, anyway, because at that age, he had to have still been in school. Didn't he stay in school until age 16 or 17? So I think he was off with John and Sam was lounging around the motel 24-7 during this flashback because it was some sort of school break, not because, from then on, Dean and Sam *never* stayed home together while John was off somewhere. I mean, even once Dean was an adult, John was *still* ditching him and going off to work alone (that's the premise of the pilot, anyway!)-- so I assume that John was ditching both of them from time to time for basically their entire lives.

 

We know John ditched the boys frequently--stealing food for Sam was how Dean ended up at the Boy's Ranch in Bad Boys, and they were both alone for at least a week in After School Special.  But they were always together, or it was mentioned that they were dropped off at Bobby's or Pastor Jim's.  IIRC, the first time we saw Sam being left alone while John and Dean hunted before this was The Girl Next Door, when Sam was already a teenager; so that's why I was basing my opinion of 9 (especially with only one year of training) being too young for Sam alone (Dean alone I would have no problem with, since he'd been in charge of Sam pretty much his whole life).  

 

I know I tend to point out way too many plot/logic holes, because they annoy me so much (former librarian, freelance editor/proofreader...)  But sometimes, once I get 'em off my chest, I can then handwave (or "talking dragon" or "wizards").  My apologies in advance if I complain too much or too often.

 

 

[AwesomO4000]

Oh yeah; Dean was always the mediator which is why he learned and learned early that he was the unimportant one in the family and that no one cared about his interests. It's partially why Sam is always surprised at things Dean does or has an interest in. It's partially why John knew that an important thing for Sam was to go to college but the best he could do for Dean was "I want Dean to have a home".

 

I disagree, but I took my reasoning to the "All Episodes Talk" thread.

[Myrelle]

Dumped this one from my DVR, unwatched. Have lost a ton of respect for Richard Speight because of that interview he gave to Variety. I know I said I should stop reading this kind of stuff, but if people BTS are seeing things the way that he's seeing them, then it's probably best to know, so as to not expect too much out of the rest of this season. Disappointed beyond words right now.

Skimmed the comments here. I really, REALLY! miss Aeryn.

Hopefully the mid-season finale will not disappoint. Hopefully the myth-arc will not go the same way that the brother stuff is seemingly going. This season presently feels too much like S5, post The End, though.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Myrelle

[neverforgottenadam]

Hi everyone new here. I really liked this episode. For the killer I actually suspected Sully because he seemed to appear out of the blue and because of everything has happened to sam-hell's cage foe example.

[LittleIggy]

Loved the episode. I liked when Dean referred to Sully as "Totoro"!

[sarthaz]

Way late to this party, but need to comment on the terrible choice of casting Dylan Kingwell as Young Sam.  I know there's a lot of overlap with filming in Vancouver and the Raelle Tucker connection, but anyone who watches The Returned cannot take that kid seriously as Sam.  It was such a jarring casting choice that I couldn't focus on the rest of the episode.  Is it that difficult to find a kid who can act in Canada?

[Jynnan tonnix]

Way late to this party, but need to comment on the terrible choice of casting Dylan Kingwell as Young Sam.  I know there's a lot of overlap with filming in Vancouver and the Raelle Tucker connection, but anyone who watches The Returned cannot take that kid seriously as Sam.  It was such a jarring casting choice that I couldn't focus on the rest of the episode.  Is it that difficult to find a kid who can act in Canada?

 

Even later  to the party...I don't really watch much TV at all, so know nothing of The Returned, but the whole time this Young Sam was onscreen I kept thinking that if he could pull off a Dean-like attitude he would have been perfect, visually, as a young Dean instead. Very pretty child.

 

As far as the episode, I enjoyed it in general, but found myself, halfway through, stopping and going off to watch some clips from Drop Dead Fred. Best Imaginary Friend Movie ever :)

 

All the lapses in continuity and age-appropriateness didn't really bother me all that much. I rather get the feeling with this episode that it's not one to try to read too much into or dissect with too much of a eye toward fitting it perfectly into a puzzle. I seems very evidently a very stand-alone episode (the mentions of the cage notwithstanding - I think they were just there to give it a bit more gravitas). I think someone just fell in love with the whole concept of the zanna and fit the script very delicately on top of the existing framework of backstory without trying to wedge it in too tightly, and it works on that level as long as one simply accepts it and doesn't try to force it to fit.

[catrox14]

Even later  to the party...I don't really watch much TV at all, so know nothing of The Returned, but the whole time this Young Sam was onscreen I kept thinking that if he could pull off a Dean-like attitude he would have been perfect, visually, as a young Dean instead. Very pretty child.

 

As far as the episode, I enjoyed it in general, but found myself, halfway through, stopping and going off to watch some clips from Drop Dead Fred. Best Imaginary Friend Movie ever :)

 

All the lapses in continuity and age-appropriateness didn't really bother me all that much. I rather get the feeling with this episode that it's not one to try to read too much into or dissect with too much of a eye toward fitting it perfectly into a puzzle. I seems very evidently a very stand-alone episode (the mentions of the cage notwithstanding - I think they were just there to give it a bit more gravitas). I think someone just fell in love with the whole concept of the zanna and fit the script very delicately on top of the existing framework of backstory without trying to wedge it in too tightly, and it works on that level as long as one simply accepts it and doesn't try to force it to fit.

 

It's interesting that you're viewing this as a one-off that doesn't fit in the entire framework of the mytharc. Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding you. 

 

 

To me the zanna were just the plot device to re-examine Sam's terrible childhood with a different lens and it tied right back to him jumping into the pit and his fear that God wants him to go back to the Cage. I mean to me it doesn't get much more mytharc tied-in than that. 

 

I recently rewatched this episode to see if I liked it better or got something different out of it, which I did get something different but I still don't like it because of Dean reasons.

 

If Sully is an actualized imaginary friend who was theoretically around to help fix something in Sam that needed fixing, then what thing was it that needed fixing? 

 

I've wondered who Sully really represented and to whom Sam is really apologizing to for being a jerk kid. Especially when Sully said that he never thought Sam was meant for hunting; that he always saw him in a different life.  Combine that with 'I always keep track of my kids" and later Sully feeling guilty for not helping steer Sam away from the hunting life. I thought maybe Sully is a manifestation of Mary. I mean we don't know where Mary is and maybe she was trying to get Sam away from hunting via Sully.  I'm sure that's not the case, but it did cross my mind.

[Jynnan tonnix]

It's interesting that you're viewing this as a one-off that doesn't fit in the entire framework of the mytharc. Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding you. 

 

 

To me the zanna were just the plot device to re-examine Sam's terrible childhood with a different lens and it tied right back to him jumping into the pit and his fear that God wants him to go back to the Cage. I mean to me it doesn't get much more mytharc tied-in than that. 

 

I recently rewatched this episode to see if I liked it better or got something different out of it, which I did get something different but I still don't like it because of Dean reasons.

 

If Sully is an actualized imaginary friend who was theoretically around to help fix something in Sam that needed fixing, then what thing was it that needed fixing? 

 

I've wondered who Sully really represented and to whom Sam is really apologizing to for being a jerk kid. Especially when Sully said that he never thought Sam was meant for hunting; that he always saw him in a different life.  Combine that with 'I always keep track of my kids" and later Sully feeling guilty for not helping steer Sam away from the hunting life. I thought maybe Sully is a manifestation of Mary. I mean we don't know where Mary is and maybe she was trying to get Sam away from hunting via Sully.  I'm sure that's not the case, but it did cross my mind.

Yes, you do make some good points on how it could tie in to the mytharc. I think I am tending to take things very much at face-value given that I'm watching the whole series in such a short frame of time. It doesn't leave much room for pondering, and I'm pretty literal-minded to start with. Plus I'm so often simply watching Jensen that I miss chunks of plot in the process (but that hasn't stopped me from doing it). Once I'm caught up in real time I'll probably go back and watch the whole thing again and maybe pick up on more of the subtleties.

[catrox14]

Yes, you do make some good points on how it could tie in to the mytharc. I think I am tending to take things very much at face-value given that I'm watching the whole series in such a short frame of time. It doesn't leave much room for pondering, and I'm pretty literal-minded to start with. Plus I'm so often simply watching Jensen that I miss chunks of plot in the process (but that hasn't stopped me from doing it). Once I'm caught up in real time I'll probably go back and watch the whole thing again and maybe pick up on more of the subtleties.

 

I think even taking this episode at face-value with the zanna helping Sam and the others, Sam explicitly stating he thinks God is asking him to back to the Cage to face Lucifer makes it a mytharc episode.

[AwesomO4000]

I recently rewatched this episode to see if I liked it better or got something different out of it, which I did get something different but I still don't like it because of Dean reasons.

 

I'm kind of surprised, because I thought this episode didn't take anything away from Dean or his care of Sam. I actually thought it painted Dean in a rather good light.

 

Throughout the episode it was evident - to me anyway - that flashback Dean was trying to make it so that Sam could be with him (and John) by talking John into letting Sam come be with them on the hunt. Dean wanted Sam to be with him. Dean did thank Sully for being there for Sam - which is a Dean thing to do, because of course he would feel a little guilty for finding out that Sam had been lonely - but Sully also sincerely thanked Dean for taking such good care of Sam. The message that I got from the episode was that Sully took care of Sam during a time when Sam was feeling down and Dean couldn't be there because he had other obligations. It was either a one time or very infrequent thing, meaning that most of the time, Sam felt secure and taken care of by Dean. And then that was reinforced for me by Sully pointing out what a great job Dean had done taking care of Sam. I didn't feel that there was any retconning or taking away from what Dean had done in terms of taking care of Sam.

 

If Sully is an actualized imaginary friend who was theoretically around to help fix something in Sam that needed fixing, then what thing was it that needed fixing?

 

Sam was lonely and needed someone to talk to. During this time, they probably moved around a bunch, so when Dean couldn't be there due to his hunting obligations, Sam probably didn't really have any close friends to talk with. I am also guessing that by this time in Sam's life, the moving was becoming more frequent because Sam and Dean were older and John could leave them alone more often. This might be why Sam didn't need an "imaginary friend" earlier, because he was usually with Dean and/or they were in one place for longer - maybe with Caleb or the Father (the name escapes me at the moment) or Bobby (in a bit of retcon perhaps).

 

So for me, Sam basically needed a friend to bounce his ideas off of. Sully's advice might normally seem like the right thing for normal people, but Sam wasn't really normal, and at that time in his life, he wanted to be hunting with John and likely especially Dean... he just needed someone to bounce alternative ideas off of until he came to his decision.

 

I've wondered who Sully really represented and to whom Sam is really apologizing to for being a jerk kid. Especially when Sully said that he never thought Sam was meant for hunting; that he always saw him in a different life.  Combine that with 'I always keep track of my kids" and later Sully feeling guilty for not helping steer Sam away from the hunting life. I thought maybe Sully is a manifestation of Mary. I mean we don't know where Mary is and maybe she was trying to get Sam away from hunting via Sully.  I'm sure that's not the case, but it did cross my mind.

 

I thought that Sully later felt guilty because of how he left things with Sam, not because he couldn't talk Sam out of the hunting life. The fact that Sully had a similar problem with his next charge - and that that ended very badly - would've just increased his guilt over how he left things with Sam.

 

As for Sam, I thought his apology was sincere, especially once he found out how badly he affected Sully, because Sully did turn out to be real. Once Sam found that out, he felt badly for blowing Sully off and yelling at him back then. That was my impression anyway.

[Aeryn13]

 

I'm kind of surprised, because I thought this episode didn't take anything away from Dean or his care of Sam. I actually thought it painted Dean in a rather good light.

 

Which is not what they wanted to get across. Richard Speight said in an interview how Dean was the one who had to acknowledge his failures and shortcomings bla bla bla. Apparently, that included the inability to be in two places at once. And also, that as a child himself, he wasn`t responsible for Sam`s well-being. Not to mention that he, as a child, got taken on dangerous hunting jobs but whoopdeedoo, that pales in comparism to Sam feeling lonely in a motel room. So much so that it wasn`t even mentioned.

 

I got the "Dean, you failed this wonderful kid" loud and clear from the episode. And of course the pimping for Sam was out of this world. Even the other imaginary friends apparently thought he was the holy grail. Of course two episodes later they ramped even that up to eleven.

 

So for Dean-reasons, I hated that episode.

[mertensia]

I still don't understand TPTB's insistence on only Sam's having had a cruddy childhood. They both did but in different ways.

[ahrtee]

What annoys me so much about so much of the last few years on SPN is that it doesn't seem like anyone is even *considering* ways to make the stories fit into canon--it's more like, "oh, I want this to happen, so let's say this is why" even when it's a total retcon or OOC.

 

It's even worse when there *is* a way to make it work, like just adding a line or two in We Need To Talk About Kevin about how Sam completely lost it when Dean disappeared and couldn't think of a way to look for him.  Here, it was already canon that Dean spent two months at Sonny's boy's camp, with no contact at all with Sam. Whether Sam thought Dean was lost and wanted desperately to go help find him (which John refused) or if he thought Dean was off training with another hunter and just hadn't bothered to call or write for two months, it still would have left Sam alone, lonely and/or scared and pissed as hell at John....the perfect reason to conjure up an imaginary friend (even if he normally would have been too old for one), while not blaming Dean for purposely ignoring or abandoning him.  It would also then be perfectly logical for Dean to thank Sully for taking care of Sam while he couldn't--because he wasn't there, *not by his choice.*  

 

I can understand that they were trying to tie it back to "Sam wanted a normal life/Sam tried to have a normal life but came back to hunting/Sam *doesn't* want a normal life anymore, thank you very much," but it seems to me that trope has been done to death by now and it would have been nice to show some other side to Sam, and acknowledge Dean's role in Sam's childhood in a way that shows that Sam appreciated his brother (which he has repeatedly *told* Dean), instead of all those flashbacks that show Dean being a dick or overprotective or abandoning him.  And of course, this is JMO.

 

 

 

 

[AwesomO4000]

Which is not what they wanted to get across. Richard Speight said in an interview how Dean was the one who had to acknowledge his failures and shortcomings bla bla bla.

 

For me, canon is what happens in the episode or maybe in the deleted scenes. Richard Speight didn't write the episode, so his opinion doesn't mean as much to me as the writer's or even Carver's. And often what the writers and showrunners say for this show - especially lately - doesn't seem to match what is onscreen anyway, and so I generally see it as "spin" rather than reality. Season 8's supposed claim that Sam not looking for Dean was a show of maturity - if that is what they said (I am going by second hand knowledge since I didn't read the interviews myself) - would be a good example, because everything they showed that season, including what happened in "Citizen Fang" was completely opposite of that, because nothing in that arc looked remotely mature to me.

 

Even Sam's interactions with Amelia were weird and immature: like agreeing to meet at another time to maybe talk about the relationship, but then not show - what? How is that a mature, healthy way to act in a relationship? The entire arc to me was showing Sam as emotionally stunted and immature, and everything he did pointed to that. For me the "mature" rhetoric was damage control after the fact and an attempt to cover for character assassination in service of angst when waving shiny, pretty Benny in front of some fans didn't distract us from the LOLcanon they went with.

 

And in no way did what they were saying make me believe that that was what was supposed to have been on the screen... otherwise that was what I would have seen onscreen in some way, instead of... everything that I did see. There wasn't even any show rhetoric from other characters hinting that Sam was showing a healthy, "mature" response. Even ghost-Bobby (who was in hell for who knows how many years) was shown not succumbing to insanity in order to blast Sam for not looking for Dean. There was no mention of "well that was maybe a reasonable and/or mature thing to do."

 

Bottom line - the writers, showrunners, directors, everyone could claim "we were trying to show mature" till they were blue in the face, and I wouldn't believe them, because what they put on the screen didn't support it for me even in "well, okay I can see that maybe they tried but failed" sort of way. I wouldn't have come up with that was supposed to be showing Sam as being the "mature" one in a 1000 guesses. My first guess, in fact, was that the whole thing was a delusion in Sam's mind... so "mature" wasn't even on the radar.

 

Why should anything said about this episode be any different? For me, I didn't see any message that Dean had to change, and I didn't really see any "shortcomings" that Dean acknowledged which were agreed as things he should acknowledge or change. Sully thanking Dean, for me, acknowledged that Dean indeed took good care of Sam. There were no qualifiers given, just a statement of fact. For me, that trumps any opinion said outside of the writer of the episode or the showrunner. But that's my opinion on the show in general on that.

 

Apparently, that included the inability to be in two places at once. And also, that as a child himself, he wasn`t responsible for Sam`s well-being. Not to mention that he, as a child, got taken on dangerous hunting jobs but whoopdeedoo, that pales in comparism to Sam feeling lonely in a motel room. So much so that it wasn`t even mentioned.

 

This show is often about perspective and point of view. This episode was not a Dean point of view episode. And even Dean's point of view on this point changes over time (Sam's sometimes does, too). Young Dean didn't have the point of view that his hunting was wrong - he thought it was awesome. Even adult Dean sometimes thought it was awesome as he explained to Gordon. So, no, this episode didn't go out of its way to emphasize that maybe adult Dean's point of view had changed. It remained a mostly Sam-centric episode. At least Dean made sense, though - in both incarnations - in "Just My Imagination." In the Dean-centric "Bad Boys", the writer and/or director didn't even bother to get past-Sam's age even remotely right.

 

I still don't understand TPTB's insistence on only Sam's having had a cruddy childhood. They both did but in different ways.

 

As I mentioned above, I think it is somewhat dependent on point of view. Dean's potentially cruddy childhood is mentioned often enough, in my opinion, and even given episodes also - like "Something Wicked" and "Bad Boys," but sometimes in regular episodes the mention is by Sam, and then denied by Dean, because in Dean's perspective sometimes, it wasn't so awful at all (example: "A Very Supernatural Christmas"). In the times when Dean does acknowledge that his childhood and treatment was awful - such as the DemonDean scene at the end of "Dream A Little Dream... " then it is given quite the emotional punch.

 

So I disagree that only Sam's childhood is acknowledged as crappy within the narrative. Sometimes the tone shows how awful it was, but it takes some convincing of Dean to get that - as in "Something Wicked" where it is shown that what happened was awful and not Dean's fault, but until Sam assures Dean that it wasn't his fault and he didn't deserve to be treated that way, Dean believes that his treatment was justified (and even then Sam may not have entirely convinced Dean otherwise). So Dean's perception is different and I think sometimes the show tone reflects that.

 

But in my opinion, changing perception is realistic sometimes. Some people always look at their past similarly and maybe with a more detached perspective, but others pick out the good or the bad, depending on their mood. In my opinion, Dean is one of the latter people. Sam is a little less so, but he also changes his perspective on his past - as can be seen in season 4 when he does a 180 on John's parenting and his desire to leave the family business. With Sam, it seems to be more closely tied to how Sam feels in the present than perhaps Dean's changes in perspective are. Although Dean's also are sometimes related certain situations, and that is sometimes when he is more likely to admit to himself that his childhood was in fact crappy.

Edited March 20, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[shang yiet]

I loved this focus on young Sam and his childhood. There have been quite a number of young Dean-focused episodes and how his childhood sucked but so why not focus on young Sam alone for a change?. I don't think anybody here thinks Dean's childhood was a party,

 

And why shouldn't this episode be sympathetic towards young Sam unlike that sucky Dark Side of the Moon where the narrative was 'How dare Sam let down his wonderful brother by having Thanksgiving with his girlfriend and daring to go to college when Dean played fireworks with him'. So I loved this episode.

 

I didn't see this episode saying anything bad about Dean. As for Richard Speight, I don't know what he said but he's not the writer so his views don't matter.

[7kstar]

 

I'm kind of surprised, because I thought this episode didn't take anything away from Dean or his care of Sam. I actually thought it painted Dean in a rather good light.

I guess I have a different perspective due to being an older sibling that tried to take care of my younger brother and sister...both sides will have a totally different idea of what happened.  Both Dean and Sam would have an interpretation that didn't agree with each other and that is fine.

 

Seeing more of young Sam also wasn't a problem for me.  I think it is a complex issue and neither looks bad.  Dean will always want to make Sam feel better and hearing that Sam needed an imaginary friend would be a painful idea. 

 

Personally I don't think what they wanted to get across is what happened but that is normal for this show and many shows.  You can't control how people relate to a topic, period.  :)

[catrox14]

 

I'm kind of surprised, because I thought this episode didn't take anything away from Dean or his care of Sam. I actually thought it painted Dean in a rather good light.

 

Yeah, I've rewatched this like 4 times now, hoping to free myself of the negative reaction I have to Dean's story in this episode, and to pinpoint why it rubbed me the wrong way so much and I find even more reason to dislike Dean's part here.

 

This was a perfectly acceptable Sam episode.In many ways, Dean didn't even need to be in the episode  (other than Jensen needing to be in the episode)if the point was just about Sam's story of needing an imaginary friend because he was lonely & about his fear of having to go back to the Cage and to tell the zanna/Sully's story about failing to be there for Sam and Sam dumping him.

 

But all I got from Dean's side of the story is that Dean understood nothing about his little brother and kids in general and needed some kind of lesson about lonely children and imaginary friends.

 

And nope I'm throwing the bullshit flag all over this one from Dean's side.

 

Dean,  who throughout the show easily relates to children; who can through to damaged, lonely children; who was a good stepdad to Ben until he was turned into a vampire...; who practically raised Sam himself and made a point to try and protect Sam's childhood as long as he could until Sam asked him about monsters; who left the boys home to make sure Sam was not alone with John; is the same Dean, at 37 years old who is now surprised, angry and defensive when Sam said he was a lonely kid? Nah, son, NOPE NOPE NOPE.

 

I can totally see Dean being ready to shoot Sully when he sees a supernatural creature in the bunker, but not just because he's jealous over Sam's actualized imaginary friend. That's just stupid. This episode totally disregards Dean's history and understanding of children that has been established by the show repeatedly.  BS

 

 

I'm also still really bothered by the twice used "Dean wasn't there" for Sam. It gives ZERO context as to why Dean wasn't there.  And yes it's in character for Dean to say it that way but they could have other characters expressly say to each other about Dean that they understood Dean did the best he could and that he didn't have those choices. Yeah we have the Dean was hunting with John but Teen!Dean was being a dick about it to 9 year old!Sam which that's reasonable because he's a teen, but they parallel that with Dean being a dick to Sam by calling Sam a weird little kid. And a dick to Sully in the present. 

 

Bleh.

Edited March 25, 2016 by catrox14

[7kstar]

To some degree, there has always been a WTF when it comes to a line here or there from Sam or Dean.  It is as though they don't know their own characters. 

 

Dean represented the non believers and gave voice to the side they needed to express this story.  Many series have had this issue though.

 

Numb3rs comes to mind when they dumb down Don in order for Charlie to explain the math so the audience could get it. 

 

So I just fanwink it as stupid and move on.  Was it my favorite, nope not by a long shot.

 

If they had crafted it a little better could it have been so much better, of course but for whatever reason they just don't do it. 

 

They seem to love to write one character in a corner at the expense of another character.  This time it was Dean, next time it will be Sam.  It's just how this show rolls.  JMV

[catrox14]

 

To some degree, there has always been a WTF when it comes to a line here or there from Sam or Dean.  It is as though they don't know their own characters.

 

I can handwave a line here or there. I can accept that wasn't....IF that was the only problem with the episode.

 

I was put off the moment Dean was actually ANGRY with Sam for saying he was a lonely kid. That made no sense to me at all. And I kept expecting them to get around to addressing Dean's anger and that maybe it was him projecting HIS anger at being lonely and put in that situation because of John and that maybe he was mad because he never had enough of a childhood to have an imaginary friend .but nope. Dean was just a dick. Ugh. annoying.

[Bessie]

I though Dean was more defensive than angry. I think he takes pride, rightly so, in being an awesome big brother. So he felt bad when he learned that Sam had periods of loneliness during his childhood.

I loved this episode. I thought it did a fabulous job of interweaving serious, mytharc issues with lighthearted moments. I didn't think anything was retconned or out of character. That's a win, for me.

[catrox14]

 

I though Dean was more defensive than angry. I think he takes pride, rightly so, in being an awesome big brother. So he felt bad when he learned that Sam had periods of loneliness during his childhood.

 

But that's the problem with the premise.

 

Presenting it as though this was some kind of new revelation for Dean. As though Dean wasn't there with Sam during his lonely childhood.  Now, even Dean saying "What are you talking about! You had me" could have been played as a good joke that Dean totally knows Sam had a shitty, lonely childhood but they played it that Dean was pissed as though Sam should never said it or something.

 

Sorry it just did not work for me.

[Myrelle]

I think that Dean always felt that Sam was enough to make his life happy and so he assumed that Sam felt the same way-which Sam obviously didn't and never has or had-until recently, I suppose. What I don't get now(and which I've never understood) is the writers' lack and inattention to Dean's underlying anger with this and so many other things associated with it that we should have gotten from Dean-which have been hinted at in episodes such as Dream a Little Dream of Me from long ago(as regards John's thoughts and actions concerning Dean and Dean's thoughts and feelings) and Jump The Shark, Soul Survivor, and The Prisoner(as regards Sam's thoughts and actions concerning Dean and Dean's thoughts and feelings), more recently. 

 

Dean has anger issues with his family that have never been explored, IMO. He is, in truth, a treasure trove of unexplored hurt and anger issues concerning those things that, sadly, none of the present writers/showrunners seem interested in writing to or exploring at all. They hint at them constantly(again, Soul Survivor and The Prisoner come to mind first and foremost for me), but never seem to want to commit episodes to them any longer.

[Wynne88]

Presenting it as though this was some kind of new revelation for Dean. As though Dean wasn't there with Sam during his lonely childhood.

 

Doubly confusing since Dean obviously knew about Sully from before, and recognized who he was when they first met up in the kitchen after Sam told him his name.  To be honest, I have a hard time believing that Sam would have laid himself open to a big brother's natural ridicule by telling him about an imaginary friend back when Sully was around during his childhood.  Still, if he had, I would have assumed that the reason he had such a friend would also have been mentioned at that point, if only to justify why he needed one.  

[AwesomO4000]

But that's the problem with the premise.

 

Presenting it as though this was some kind of new revelation for Dean. As though Dean wasn't there with Sam during his lonely childhood.  Now, even Dean saying "What are you talking about! You had me" could have been played as a good joke that Dean totally knows Sam had a shitty, lonely childhood but they played it that Dean was pissed as though Sam should never said it or something.

 

Sorry it just did not work for me.

 

But I'm not sure Dean really did understand that on some level for much of the show, or at least much of the early part of it. It goes back to perception that I was talking about up above. It's the same thing for people, and in this case Sam and Dean often have different perspectives. Now granted it is more of an earlier season thing, but in more than one episode, Dean looks at Sam like he's an alien when he talks about their childhood differently from how he remembers it - and vica-versa. Dean will wax poetic about a beer can wreath John stole from a liquor store while Sam looks at him like he's nuts, or Sam will smile about his memory of that Thanksgiving at his "girlfriend's" house while Dean looks at him like he's crazy: why wouldn't Sam have preferred the bucket of crispy chicken from KFC? He definitely didn't understand why Sam would run away - and was pissed off about that - while Sam didn't get why Dean didn't understand why Sam might want to run away to look for something else and why Dean couldn't see that Sam running away wasn't because of or a reflection on how Sam felt about Dean. I don't remember exactly which thing from their childhood it was in reference to, but I do remember Dean once saying something to the effect of "Well, I liked it," hurt and angry that Sam didn't remember whatever that thing was fondly... and similarly Sam would get annoyed and exasperated when Dean wouldn't get how crappy it was.

 

So maybe this was one of those perception things again - that's how I took it anyway - where Dean truly didn't remember exactly how lonely Sam's childhood was. I love my sister dearly, but she remembers some things from our childhood a LOT differently from how I remember them. To the point sometimes I wonder if I'm crazy and maybe I'm remembering stuff wrongly myself. Maybe Dean thought Sam would be happy staying home reading or studying or something when Dean was a teen and just never thought of it any other way, and the perception stuck.

 

I think that Dean always felt that Sam was enough to make his life happy and so he assumed that Sam felt the same way-which Sam obviously didn't and never has or had-until recently, I suppose.

 

I don't think Dean always felt this way either, but as he got older he likely forgot or made himself forget. We saw flashbacks where young Dean would get frustrated and leave more than once, but due to John's shitty reaction when one of those instances ended badly in "Something Wicked", it was understandable that Dean stuffed down and repressed those feelings and tried to tell himself that Sam was enough. And when Sam was younger, Dean was enough for Sam and was usually his world (as Sam told Dean in season 3 when he talked about how he'd wanted to be just like Dean). Sam's loneliness came later, because he often didn't have Dean when John took Dean away on a hunt. And Sam didn't have a choice but to be alone. When Dean watched Sam, he could choose to stay with Sam or go out to get supplies or off to chase girls, or he could be with John. Sam had less of a choice in that, being younger and less confident in interacting with people he didn't know, so when Dean left on hunting trips with John, Sam was more often by himself.

 

 

What I don't get now(and which I've never understood) is the writers' lack and inattention to Dean's underlying anger with this and so many other things associated with it that we should have gotten from Dean-which have been hinted at in episodes such as Dream a Little Dream of Me from long ago(as regards John's thoughts and actions concerning Dean and Dean's thoughts and feelings) and Jump The Shark, Soul Survivor, and The Prisoner(as regards Sam's thoughts and actions concerning Dean and Dean's thoughts and feelings), more recently.

Dean has anger issues with his family that have never been explored, IMO. He is, in truth, a treasure trove of unexplored hurt and anger issues concerning those things that, sadly, none of the present writers/showrunners seem interested in writing to or exploring at all. They hint at them constantly(again, Soul Survivor and The Prisoner come to mind first and foremost for me), but never seem to want to commit episodes to them any longer.

 

I don't think it's inattention myself. I think it is actually in character. And I think it's in character for the very reason that Dean explained to Bobby in early season 7 when Bobby tried to get Dean to talk to him about how Dean was doing and feeling. When Dean said fine, Bobby pointed out that that was what Sam said before he "spilled his marbles all over the floor." Dean's response was that that was Sam, but not to worry about him [Dean], because he "kept his marbles in a lead box." The reason we learn most about Dean's anger through supernatural influence - the shape-shifter, the siren, the dream root, when he was a demon, etc. ("Jump the Shark" was a rare exception) -  I think, is because of that lead box. In my opinion, part of that lead box is denial and rose-colored glasses perception. If he remembers it that way enough, it becomes the reality until something breaks that lead box open.

 

A good example of that was what happened with Castiel and purgatory. Dean had created a whole false memory through the perception he created for himself until he couldn't even remember what had actually happened. That's some heavy-duty denial and/or mental and emotional self-manipulation there. So for me, I entirely believe that Dean can put any family anger into that lead box with his marbles and make himself forget it until something major makes it bubble up.

 

 

Doubly confusing since Dean obviously knew about Sully from before, and recognized who he was when they first met up in the kitchen after Sam told him his name.  To be honest, I have a hard time believing that Sam would have laid himself open to a big brother's natural ridicule by telling him about an imaginary friend back when Sully was around during his childhood.  Still, if he had, I would have assumed that the reason he had such a friend would also have been mentioned at that point, if only to justify why he needed one.  

 

Perception again. Dean probably barely remembered Sully after Sam reminded him about it. I wouldn't be surprised at all that he'd forget why Sam had such a friend. He probably blew off any explanation Sam gave him back then as lame and remembered it that way (Dean was a teenager after all.)

 

Actually it was probably lucky for Sully that Sam did tell him to go away, because realistically all it would've taken was for Dean to casually mention scoffingly that Sam had an imaginary friend and John would've been checking that out big time and likely have roasted Sully in some way.

[shang yiet]

Why can't an episode just focus on Sam and his issues for once? Plenty of episodes have been all about Dean and his issues while ignoring Sam, Frankly, I think Dean's emo has been explored enough.  Yes, I don't think Dean needed to be in this episode at all.

 

Dean's anger, surprise and defensiveness were all over Dark Side of the Moon but I don't recall fans saying that episode made Dean look bad. I seriously do not think Dean was a jerk here. Dark Side, yes, Dean's attitude there pissed me off but this episode, I didn't get any 'Dean was a jerk' vibe. Maybe it was the way Just My Imagination was structured with the focus on the zanna and not on Dean's feelings.

 

They seem to love to write one character in a corner at the expense of another character.  This time it was Dean, next time it will be Sam.  It's just how this show rolls.  JMV

 

 

True enough. How many times have I heard certain fans complain Sam always seems surprised when Dean reveals something and this shows Sam doesn't know his brother at all and doesn't care to see Dean's side, is selfish and so on.

[mertensia]

Well canonically Sam has been surprised by what he's learned about Dean, thanks to their upbringing. By which I mean Dean learned early on that John had no interest in Dean's interests so he learned to shut up about them. Normal family dynamics meant older siblings don't necessarily tell interests to younger siblings who often don't realize older sibling has interests but sometimes they do. In this case Dean was an oyster.

[shang yiet]

John also had no interest in Sam's interests. Right, siblings don't tell each other everything so why is everyone here surprised by Dean's surprise?

[mertensia]

Probably because kids with imaginary friends tend to talk to and about them.

[Bessie]

I enjoy it when the boys learn something new about each other or gain insight into the other's perspective. I think the idea that they know everything about one another is a bit of a romantic notion. It didn't surprise me a bit that Dean was unaware of the extent of Sam's feelings of loneliness. As far as I know, Dean was either with Sam or John or both during most of his childhood. So he probably couldn't relate to Sam's feelings. That doesn't make him a bad person or a bad brother. It makes him human and I find it to be a realistic portrayal of adult siblings looking back on their experiences growing up.

[DittyDotDot]

If I had a nickel for every time me or one of my siblings has remembered something about our childhoods and each one of us (that's four) remembers it differently, I could probably quit my day job. Sam and Dean are two different people with two differing points of view, have been since the very first episode. I would be totally rolling my eyes if Sam and Dean always remembered their childhoods the same way and/or they know everything about each other. Now that would be a total retcon in my mind. 

 

I'm not gonna ask the demented on to do this, but I would bet if someone made a list, there would be just as many times Dean learned something new about Sam as there have been of Sam learning something new about Dean. I don't think it shows a lack of interest on either part, but reminds us how Sam and Dean are basically normal--other than the monster hunting, of course

 

I call bullshit on many things in this episode, but think the one thing they may have gotten right is that Sam and Dean don't always know what they think they know about each other.

 

 

Well canonically Sam has been surprised by what he's learned about Dean, thanks to their upbringing. By which I mean Dean learned early on that John had no interest in Dean's interests so he learned to shut up about them. Normal family dynamics meant older siblings don't necessarily tell interests to younger siblings who often don't realize older sibling has interests but sometimes they do. In this case Dean was an oyster.

 

I think, like most things, this goes both ways, though. Many times older siblings do what they do and just assume the younger will want to do the same. As a result the older never knows what the younger's interests are either.

[Demented Daisy]

I'm not gonna ask the demented on to do this, but I would bet if someone made a list *snip*

 

Well, I have my spring cleaning and spring gardening to do....  If someone wants to make me a list of all the lists I need to make....  ;-)

[MysteryGuest]

I had issues with this episode, but I didn't think that Dean was made to look bad for not being there for his brother.  Dean and Sam both had crappy childhoods.  Dean took care of him as best he could, considering he was a child himself.  What seemed a bit odd was that Dean knew about Sully, yet was surprised to hear Sam say he'd been a lonely kid.  That would seem pretty obvious to me.

 

My biggest issues were the kid himself.  I didn't think he fit with Sam at all.  And then all the talk about Sam saving the world, and Sam having to go back in the cage, etc.  I didn't want Lucifer II, so I really disliked most of the scenes between Sam and Sully.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

• Well this had me nearly rolling on the floor laughing so hard at the beginning.  It was great.  So many absolutely hilarious moments.  Til it got all real and serious at the end.  Boo.
• But come on - some hunter instincts Sam has, huh?  If Sully could be in his room without him noticing, then follow him down the hall.  Okay, even if I handwave all that away with a silly explanation like Zanna's footsteps don't make sounds, Sam walked past the table full of junk food THREE TIMES before he finally noticed!  (Oh, and what was with only filling the coffee pot part way full?  I'm a morning coffee person.  You make a full pot or don't even bother.  That would have been enough just to piss me off...)
• Dean in the dead-guy robe and the kung-fu move on Sully was great!  Dean's facial expressions and comments during this scene - and most of the entire episode were great!
• And I did crack up at Sully being so solicitous to Sam when he was still trying to wrap his head around Sully being real.  
• Dean looked like Mr. Rogers in that sweater at the kid's house.  Speaking of - that was another good scene where they are surveying the manicorn's blood and the mom smears it all over her face.  hee.
• Have we seen TeenDean before?  He looked familiar.  YoungSam did not fit at all.  That was horrible casting.
• Pretty sure that was Van Halen on air guitar.  Awesome.
• But WHY did it have to go all maudlin at the end?  I can't believe Sam would actually think that God was sending him messages that He wanted him to go back in the cage with Lucifer.  While I had problems with SPN's personification of God, even Chuck wasn't that sadistic.  
• FYI, I had an imaginary friend when I was young.  I wish I could remember his name.  (Yes, it was a he.  Go figure.)  Seems like I was around 4 or 5 at the time, which makes sense because as the youngest, that's how old I was when all my older siblings went off to school during the day and left me at home alone.  Well, with my mom, but she was busy you know, and didn't have time to play with me.  We lived out in the boonies and didn't have very close neighbors at the time.  And I didn't go to Kindergarten.  So, yeah, I was lonely during that time.  Interestingly, my imaginary friend was never around after my siblings got home from school.  And he disappeared completely after I started school.  I also remember one of my older brothers making fun of me for having an imaginary friend.  My mom put a stop to that.  Period.  She was okay with it.  He didn't hurt anyone and kept me occupied and out of her hair.  So maybe Zanna really are real....  ;)

[Demented Daisy]

7 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Have we seen TeenDean before?

Yes, Bad Boys and About a Boy.