S05.E07: Oriole

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Carrie reconnects with old friends. Saul opens up to Allison.

 

Promo:

 

Clips:

 

 

[Primetimer]

Allison's plan is going down the toilet as Carrie plunges headlong into the search for a former asset.

Read the story

[The Bullpen]

Watched this episode with my parents. I called the Amsterdam asset dying by episode's end almost immediately, and my dad called the Saul "kidnapping" being Mossad. We were both rather pleased with ourselves. But honestly, neither was that tough to predict.

I agree with the recap - Allison is kind of a bore. And she isn't recently turned? Jeez, coulda fooled me. She sucks at this. So why the hell is Saul so blind to it all? This storyline makes him seem like a dummy.

Finally, During is a creep.

[VioletMarx]

1. I actually thought Carrie was at her sanest during her conversation with During. No idea why he suddenly thinks she's crazy.

2. Saul tells Alison a shocking piece of information and she instantly becomes physically ill. The former head of the CIA does not connect these two facts?

Edited November 16, 2015 by VioletMarx

[Noirprncess]

During seemed two-faced. I guess this episode finally showed this clearly.

So, how many episodes before Carrie figured out that Allison is the reason "someone" wants to kill her?

Saul is really off his game right now. He's not even seeing the trail of bread crumbs Addison is leaving. She could probably say, "it was me, Saul" and he would be confused.

[WaltersHair]

During casually mentions that the Red Army passed through his father's estate back in the day. Any chance he's a Rusky too? It might account for sudden change of heart toward Carrie. Maybe he's in the documents too.

[Cramps]

My take was that During is becoming interested in Carrie romantically and wanted to sabotage whatever is left of her relationship. It seemed like he was going there when he said his ex didn't fly like he and Carrie do.

This episode, while a bit predictable, still had me on the edge of my seat the entire time. My chest is still clenched up.

[Mackey]

During doesn't really think that Carrie is crazy, does he? Isn't he working some plan for her?

[chocolatine]

I also thought that During was bullshitting Jonas. I'm not sure why though.

 

Didn't Carrie recognize Allison's voice when she called the one number on the Russian hitman's phone? Is she trying to make a date with Allison to trap her?

 

I want Laura to die. The way she showed up at During's castle and kept demanding the files even after Carrie explained what had happened to the first hacker and how dangerous the situation is was the last straw for me.

 

When Dar was giving his spiel in front of the CIA goons how Saul was to be returned to the US with no detours, I thought I saw him giving a tiny smile/wink to Saul. But when the "kidnappers" turned out to be Itai's and not Dar's, I was confused. Is Saul a double agent now with Dar's cooperation, or did he really defect to Israel fair and square? If it's the latter, in what capacity is he going to interact with Carrie and/or Quinn from now on?

 

I'm also confused about the wannabe jihadists Quinn is "helping". They speak German among each other, which indicates that they were born and raised in Germany, but the influx of Middle Easterners into Germany is relatively recent. The only Muslims that have been in Germany long enough to raise another generation are the Turks that came in the '70s. And none of those bozos has apparently ever been to Syria, but one of them has an uncle who's ISIS figure important enough to be a target of the CIA? It doesn't add up.

 

The poor "Iraqi" driver in Amsterdam sounded an awful lot like an Israeli to me.

Edited November 16, 2015 by chocolatine

[dwmarch]

During has a whole fleet of cars and each one should be a model of German efficiency and engineering. All of them should purr like kittens on Xanax. Yet somehow Carrie manages to pick the jankiest one. The exterior was nice sure but that engine sounded like a diabetic hamster on a rusty wheel.

 

Did Quinn just offer to commit suicide? He gets in close and then Dar Adal has the ordnance standing by? The ordnance isn't going to be a team of sharpshooters Quinn! And why didn't Quinn ask Adal about some of the recent goings-on? The right person asking the right questions would make a huge difference at the moment.

 

I am in agreement with those who aren't feeling During's sudden change of heart regarding Carrie. I though he smelled a rat named Jonas and that conversation was his way of sniffing it out. Jonas FWIW is a gentleman's gentleman for not telling During exactly what Carrie's mental state was the last time they spent any significant time together.

 

I also got a chuckle out of Carrie's admission to During that "things got pretty crazy." By things of course she meant the specific person of Carrie Mathison.

 

When Allison had her panic attack I was sure she was about to get punked by Saul. It is taking everyone way too long to figure things out here unless there is some really long con going on.

 

Speaking of long cons, I keep waiting for one to pop up. Maybe Quinn forced that one guy to stay behind for some purpose other than what was stated?

 

Carrie had the tactical advantage over the Russian mooks when she was doing her B&E. Why didn't she shoot the one in the back and then shoot the other as he came up the stairs? They're already trying to kill her and indeed these mooks shot at her as she fled.

 

I loved Saul's quiet, dignified "fuck off" to Dar Adal. Judging by the ending of this episode, I guess Saul really means it.

[albaniantv]

During listened for the one wobbly note Carrie indicated about Jonas --something about not knowing if he would rejoin her since things "got crazy"--and casually threw a sour whiff over Jonas as a lawyer with both feet stodgily planted on the ground. Then he gave Jonas some fatherly concern looks, expressed doubt about Carrie's sanity and switched into boss mode, "Oh and we are contractually done with that one." So, During lets us know he is up to no good while we get these little windows into the wealth of his estate--are we still in Berlin?  I don't get why he has his own private chapel -- is that an offset to the stable of cars?

 

I couldn't tell if Carrie recognized Allison's voice on the phone for that 20 second call right after the plane blows up. Somehow I don't think so though, because Carrie would have found a way to indicate that to Saul, and then Saul would not have filled Allison in on Carrie's status and whereabouts. That makes me sad because for Saul to trust Allison this much means he's losing it and is as over the hill as Dar seems to think.

 

I don't believe for a minute Saul wants to defect or means to bring Israel into all this mess --he just ran out of friends and ran out of time in Berlin and didn't have anyone else to call for help. It's painful to watch Saul flail around.

 

But, what I am hating the most about the last couple episodes is Carrie is so alone, and so is Quinn although he doesn't seem to know no one can trust Dar. They are good together, Carrie and Quinn, but alone they don't seem to have that great timing or flawless instincts.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Despite the fact that During has been helping Carrie, I have never trusted him. I keep waiting for him to betray her.

 

Laura needs to STFU and have a seat. She is so consumed with her self righteousness that she sees nothing but what she wants. As Carrie told her, Saul gave the documents to CARRIE so that she could figure out why the Russians want her dead, not so Laura could break a huge story. I know that journalists need to be tenacious and passionate but SHUT UP, LAURA.

 

Damn, I was not expecting Saul to get kidnapped. Then again, it's been a few episodes since Carrie was kidnapped, so I guess it was time for someone to be abducted. Carrie's target being kidnapped was just a bonus - two in one episode! Of course, both ended up seeming like non-abductions since Saul's was a fake out and the other guy was just brought back to his own house.

 

Allison's spy game with Saul is terrible. After he confesses, she IMMEDATELY gets sick. First of all, you need nerves of steel is you're going to be a spy (see: Elizabeth Jennings). Freaking out like that after you get big news is kind of a dead giveaway. Lucky for her, Saul is so preoccupied that he didn't notice. I was already annoyed with her earlier in the episode when she said, "I didn't see a body. I saw a picture (of Carrie). Did you see a body?" Ummm, that's not how the drop box works and you know it. You guys had Quinn send a picture of the (fake) body so do you think Ivan and his buddies drove around looking for the actual body?

[Reciprokates]

I'm also confused about the wannabe jihadists Quinn is "helping". They speak German among each other, which indicates that they were born and raised in Germany, but the influx of Middle Easterners into Germany is relatively recent. The only Muslims that have been in Germany long enough to raise another generation are the Turks that came in the '70s. And none of those bozos has apparently ever been to Syria, but one of them has an uncle who's ISIS figure important enough to be a target of the CIA? It doesn't add up.

Germany has had immigrants and asylum seekers for decades from all over middle east, not just Turkey, though the turkish community is by far the biggest.

Terrorism and the recent refugee situation are completely different things. So far, that's one of the few times, where Homeland hasn't given in to bad prejudices.

[norask]

Allison is so bloody obvious with her machinations. Why are these two expert spies, Dar Adal and Saul buying her bs? It just seems to convinivet. I'm still holding onto the hope that this is some really long con. And the russian handler insinuated that Allison has been a double agent for a long time - exactly how long and what has she been doing this long? And I still can't figure out why she turned on her own country?

 

Saul blabs everything to Allison about Carrie and During and confirmed all of Allison's doubts. And then she has a panic attack and still Saul's not suspicious. When did Saul Berenson become so stupid?

 

I really like the first hacker and his loyalty to his friend (yes, stupid and sleazy) is touching. I really hope nothing happens to him. OTOH, Laura continues to be an annoyance. She seems to think this is a game she's playing with Carrie. While I agree that the public deserves to know some of the stuff in the documents, no one knows what all those documents mean.

 

I'm still not sure about During. I have always liked him but after his conversation with Jonas, I'm must not sure. Carrie trusts him but her instincts have never been infallible. On a side note, During's estate is huge and opulent but I loved the house in Amsterdam.

 

Quinn is stuck with those bumbling wannabe terrorists. I've no idea what he's doing with them and why he isn't looking for Carrie. These two together make the show for me. But now Carries in stuck in Amsterdam, Quinn is on his way to Syria and Saul is with Mossad.

[Ina123]

"I don't get why he has his own private chapel..."

Many ancestral European estates had chapels. Some even had its own priest. These estates had numerous family and servants making it like a small parish.

"Quinn is stuck with those bumbling wannabe terrorists. I've no idea what he's doing with them..."

Quinn wasn't going with them until the one guy told him who his uncle was. Quinn pretended not to have ever heard of him but he later told Dar about him. They know who he is and the uncle is a big fish. Quinn is going with them to locate him for Dar to take him out. Probably by a drone.

[parandroid]

 

Allison is so bloody obvious with her machinations. Why are these two expert spies, Dar Adal and Saul buying her bs? It just seems to convinivet. I'm still holding onto the hope that this is some really long con. And the russian handler insinuated that Allison has been a double agent for a long time - exactly how long and what has she been doing this long? And I still can't figure out why she turned on her own country?

Its so "bloody obvious" to us the viewer because of course we get to see the cherry-picked and most interesting / relevant moments of Allison's behavior. But that's not all of what Saul and Dar Adal see, and in that context, Allison appears normal. Lets take the whole "lets frame Saul by giving him an alibi" approach she did. We the viewer see her as manipulative because we know of her true affiliation. But to Dar Adal, who only knows of her sleeping with Saul this only comes across as a loyal lover (initially) and then loyal CIA employee (when she plays the "of course, he could have made a copy"- card). To me the writing is brilliant. Saul and Dar Adal are good spies, but Allison is better!

 

I do tend to believe that double-agents wouldn't wear their emotions on their sleeve so much, but OTOH, the pressure must be intense and unrelenting. I certainly couldn't do it without falling to pieces, and I certainly understand why someone would feel physically ill when hearing news of impending doom. I don't know any double-agents, so maybe, this is how they behave in real life.

 

Lets also keep in mind that in real life Robert Hanssen gave secrets to Russia for over 20 years without being suspected. It is possible to fool a lot of people a very long time.

Edited November 16, 2015 by parandroid

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I loved when Allison went to Dar with the second flash drive and his immediate reaction was, "Nice try, dummy."

[Boundary]

Quinn is so competent I'm wondering if he's in the same show.

 

I mean how off his game can Saul be? Carrie gave him 2 pieces of information: he's got a tail and the Russians are deep into his business. Conclusion, Dar is behaving as you'd expect, so even though he's frustrating you Saul, you should be looking out for a slippery snake. Lo and behold, your girlfriend, who shouldn't even be allowed near you, has managed to sneak you out to the hotel. She's playing you Saul, how can you be that oblivious? 

 

I don't think Carrie is setting up Allison for a trap, unfortunately. But one thing exciting that gave me hope, Carrie and the hacker are combining resources. If only Quinn would join the crew, they'd take down the "greatest penetration of American intelligence in fucking history" just like *that*. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

But now Carries in stuck in Amsterdam, Quinn is on his way to Syria and Saul is with Mossad.

I loved that they were all (way too coincidentally) in Berlin so that we got interaction between them all, so I'm disappointed (but not surprised) that they are now heading off into different directions. Hopefully we'll get at least two of them in the same city before the season ends.

[teddysmom]

Maybe this is a dumb question but why would someone save incriminating information about something they were involved in on the CIA's server? And why would Carrie be the only person that would be a threat to this information being made public?

Like did Allison type a memo to herself stating "I can't believe the dumb asses I work with. They have no idea I'm a KGB plant, and I've been fucking over our other agents for years. Mrs. Saul Berenson, Mrs Allison Berenson Allison Saul , Dar Adal smells weird. "

First rule of Fight Club - don't save shit on your work server.

[parandroid]

 

Lo and behold, your girlfriend, who shouldn't even be allowed near you, has managed to sneak you out to the hotel. She's playing you Saul, how can you be that oblivious?

But Saul doesn't know that. He doesn't see the machinations that we, the viewer, have been privileged enough to see. As far as he knows, Dar Adal didn't see any bang for the buck in keeping him in the interrogation room and let him go to his hotel room. Saul doesn't know that this was engineered by Allison. And just because we see the duplicity of Allison, doesn't mean that Saul has any evidence or pointers from his point of view to suspect someone he trusts so deeply.

 

 

Maybe this is a dumb question but why would someone save incriminating information about something they were involved in on the CIA's server? And why would Carrie be the only person that would be a threat to this information being made public?

That's not the sort of information that's the problem. The problem was that a source "sent up a flag" saying that there was some new information and nobody really followed up on this they way they should have. If they had, Ahmed Nazir would have been uncovered sooner. The record of the incoming request was there in the CIA records, but the absence of a response / follow up is whats noteworthy, not some actual incriminating action.

Edited November 16, 2015 by parandroid

[teddysmom]

That's not the sort of information that's the problem. The problem was that a source "sent up a flag" saying that there was some new information and nobody really followed up on this they way they should have. If they had, Ahmed Nazir would have been uncovered sooner. The record of the incoming request was there in the CIA records, but the absence of a response / follow up is whats noteworthy, not some actual incriminating action.

 

Thanks!! This is what I get for watching Homeland at 5 am.   

[Constantinople]

By now, it would be nice if we had some indication why Alison is a double agent.

[VioletMarx]

The message they've all been so worried about Carrie seeing is that her old informant saw that "dead" guy walking around, right? So why isn't her informant dead? They'll do anything to avoid her seeing a piece of paper but leave the actual person with the info alive and well?

[Ina123]

Geeze, every time I come here I find myself needing to watch again.

[Artsda]

Saul is so dumb trusting Alison and not noticing her reaction.

[teddysmom]

Well all we can hope for is Allison walks into a room at the end and is confronted by Saul and Carrie and gets a case of explosive diarrhea.

 

She looked like she was going to hurl in Saul's bathroom, so I can't imagine what will happen when she finds out that they finally figure out what she's doing. 

[slowpoked]

 

But Saul doesn't know that. He doesn't see the machinations that we, the viewer, have been privileged enough to see. As far as he knows, Dar Adal didn't see any bang for the buck in keeping him in the interrogation room and let him go to his hotel room. Saul doesn't know that this was engineered by Allison. And just because we see the duplicity of Allison, doesn't mean that Saul has any evidence or pointers from his point of view to suspect someone he trusts so deeply.

Exactly. Viewers saw Allison talking to Ivan, Saul and Dar don't have that privilege. And to have Allison's position as Station Chief of Berlin (and Baghdad), she would have been in the CIA for a very significant amount of time. And I'm sure during all of that time, she was been checked and thoroughly checked and passed with flying colors for her to be given plum positions. She probably also does her job well, if the SVR bosses are to be believed that they believe she can be director one day. So no, I don't think Saul and Dar are being blind about Allison running circles around them. If she is indeed SVR and represents the greatest penetration into American Intelligence, then she had the entire CIA fooled.

 

Also, Saul's obliviousness to the Allison can also be caused by the fact that he is sleeping with her, therefore, there is already an inherent bias there. There is intimacy, at least on Saul's part. And Allison surely is playing the part perfectly - she's still coming on to Saul even though she fully knows he will be thrown back to Langley and therefore there's no need for her to continue sleeping with him.

 

Another good episode that moved things along. Barring any letdowns, I think this is the best season of Homeland since S1. I thought they were going to drag out why Allison had Carrie killed, but they explored it here in this episode, and I'm glad it wasn't because of petty jealousy. There's a legitimate reason why (at least with what the documents show, pending whatever Nazari will eventually tell Carrie), and it is right in the center of the battle this season.

 

My only major pet peeve this episode was Carrie's recklessness. Remember, you're dead. Or at least supposed to be. And dammit, Quinn went through great lengths to protect you. So you have to be very careful about the people you keep in touch with, and make sure those people are the people you can trust 100%. I already thought she was callous contacting Laura last episode, but I understand her desperation. But her just calling Allison is just so careless to me, and very unlike Carrie, who most of the time thinks things through. Why involve Allison in what is supposed to be a very small circle of people she should be talking to? It doesn't even seem like they're close colleagues when they first showed us the two of them talking in the first episode. Why not go back to Saul? She should feel a little relieved now considering he did end up giving her the documents, therefore a sign that he is trusting her again. Did she forget she was supposed to be on the down low? Just last episode, she made sure Astrid knows she's supposed to be dead.

 

I also like there's another layer to During other than just a very generous boss who has a big heart for everyone. I'm thinking there's just no way he's that nice, letting Carrie use his private jet, having Carrie take any car she likes, etc. It would be another good character to explore along the season - what is really his main motive?

[teddysmom]

Have we talked about how much we hate Laura yet?  

 

Can you go find something else to write about until people stop getting killed over these documents?  Geesus Mary & Joseph woman, there's freedom of the press and then there's having your head up your ass. 

[hammaboo]

I'm hoping Carrie has figured something out and doesn't just meet up with Allison without a plan.

 

Did we know Oriole was Carrie's code name before today?  (I don't remember it, but that wouldn't be the first thing I may have forgotten over the years.)

[albaniantv]

Allison may have been thoroughly vetted over the years, but the CIA or its institutional memory knows that doesn't count for much since its worst breaches have come from their longest vetted and most highly placed!

 

Saul too has worked in many of the same places as Allison and is equally vetted, yet his close colleague Dar is ready to suspect him of treason. That doesn't make much sense, that Dar would still be thinking the Mossad business that happened 30 years ago with Saul, blinding him to how dependent he and Saul both are on Allison's honesty. 

 

It's terrifying how things can unravel when Saul or Dar get suddenly stupid, and way worse when they do it simultaneously. I have read that IRL the Russian spy apparatus places more emphasis on using sex to obtain outcomes than the US does --wonder if the writers are having some fun with that scenario. Starting with Brody, the writers do seem to favor the pheromone phenomenon.

[slowpoked]

Have we talked about how much we hate Laura yet?  

 

Can you go find something else to write about until people stop getting killed over these documents?  Geesus Mary & Joseph woman, there's freedom of the press and then there's having your head up your ass. 

I was hoping Carrie would tell her "Jesus woman, there are far bigger and important things going around here rather than just getting a scoop on top-secret government documents," and tell her to GTFO as well. I love that little zinger that cameraman had for her last episode where he told her she was probably happy having a hand in the release of a convicted jihadist off prison. I also don't like the actress as well. There's an unlikeable character, and there's also the actress not doing the characters any favors.

 

 

Did we know Oriole was Carrie's code name before today?  (I don't remember it, but that wouldn't be the first thing I may have forgotten over the years.)

I haven't heard about it before either...Maybe it was mentioned but just in passing.

[MochaJay]

My only major pet peeve this episode was Carrie's recklessness. Remember, you're dead. Or at least supposed to be. And dammit, Quinn went through great lengths to protect you. So you have to be very careful about the people you keep in touch with, and make sure those people are the people you can trust 100%. I already thought she was callous contacting Laura last episode, but I understand her desperation. But her just calling Allison is just so careless to me, and very unlike Carrie, who most of the time thinks things through. Why involve Allison in what is supposed to be a very small circle of people she should be talking to? It doesn't even seem like they're close colleagues when they first showed us the two of them talking in the first episode. Why not go back to Saul? She should feel a little relieved now considering he did end up giving her the documents, therefore a sign that he is trusting her again. Did she forget she was supposed to be on the down low? Just last episode, she made sure Astrid knows she's supposed to be dead.

 

Carrie being careless with people knowing she is alive is pretty typical of her, but also the situation has changed somewhat since she was with Quinn. She initially agreed she would  go into into hiding when Quinn persuaded her there was no way to fix this, and was being more discreet and pushing Jonas away when her attempt to connect with Saul failed, Now she has a real lead and her usual faith in her ability to solve things means she is willing to throw caution aside as she does not think she will have to stay presumed dead.

 

And she does have a history with Allison, which would presumably include trusting her in the past without negative consequences. Otto saw Saul get picked up and Quinn is possibly dead and wasn't in Iraq at the time anyway so Allison would be a good bet if she wasn't a mole.

[txwatcher]

Love this episode and can agree with most everyone's grievances. My two are:<br />1. Laura's naive insistence on publishing the docs, even though there are a trail of bodies already. Plus Numan seems ok with Carrie'a decision.<br />2. Why the hell didn't Carrie at least shoot the goon who opened the safe. Getting the goods and the laptop.<br />My wish is that Carrie does some more work on the documents before going on the ill advised meet with Allison(Aleska her real name since she is a SVR sleeper), finding out she squashed the mag. from Carrie's Iraqi asset.

[slowpoked]

 So why isn't her informant dead? They'll do anything to avoid her seeing a piece of paper but leave the actual person with the info alive and well?

He was considered an Asset - "Touchtstone" was his code word. I'm assuming CIA just don't kill off their assets when they want to pass off some vital information, or else no one would work as an asset for the agency anymore.

[Brent Hahn]

If you enjoy this sort of thing -- at the beginning of the scene in Amsterdam where Carrie's about to break into the house, you'll see an extra walk by in a blue Hawaiian shirt.  Caught my eye because, well, Hawaiian shirt in Amsterdam.  A bit later he goes by in a different shirt.  Later still, here he comes in the Hawaiian shirt again, but this time he has a jacket over it.  Weird.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When Carrie said she was going to Amsterdam, the first thing I thought was well, Laura is going to use her absence to obtain those documents and probably publish them while Carrie is gone which will just create an even bigger shitstorm. I hope Carrie locked that flash drive in a vault or buried it in a hole in the ground. You know Laura started tearing During's house apart to find it as soon as Carrie drove away. Hopefully she won't convince During or Numan to help her.

[Mama No Life]

Saul is smarter than this.

 

Quinn is smarter than this.

 

Even Carrie is smarter than this.

 

So clearly there's much excitement to come....

[Boundary]

When Carrie said she was going to Amsterdam, the first thing I thought was well, Laura is going to use her absence to obtain those documents and probably publish them while Carrie is gone which will just create an even bigger shitstorm. I hope Carrie locked that flash drive in a vault or buried it in a hole in the ground. You know Laura started tearing During's house apart to find it as soon as Carrie drove away. Hopefully she won't convince During or Numan to help her.

 

So far Laura has behaved appallingly but within During's jurisdiction, she hasn't gone rogue. So my belief is that she wouldn't explicitly do that but Carrie should've brought the flashdrive with her and burnt the printed copies in any case. During has respected Saul's "for Carrie's eyes only" so far so I don't see how he would allow Laura to publish. This particular set of documents was leaked by Saul to Carrie, they aren't the hacked copies, but would the difference be significant to During?

 

But Saul doesn't know that. He doesn't see the machinations that we, the viewer, have been privileged enough to see. As far as he knows, Dar Adal didn't see any bang for the buck in keeping him in the interrogation room and let him go to his hotel room. Saul doesn't know that this was engineered by Allison. And just because we see the duplicity of Allison, doesn't mean that Saul has any evidence or pointers from his point of view to suspect someone he trusts so deeply.

 

 

The problem isn't that viewers know more than Saul. As I said in my post, he knows the Russians have infiltrated the CIA, including his off book mission with Quinn. Dar isn't willing to listen but that shouldn't be surprising given how elaborate the Russians have framed him. But then he decides to trust Allison precisely at the moment red flags should be going up. Set a trap, test her then trust her. I suppose he was preoccupied with defection and Carrie's "death" wouldn't remain a secret for long anyway,  given his contacting During. I miss the Saul with the long cons. 

[VioletMarx]

He was considered an Asset - "Touchtstone" was his code word. I'm assuming CIA just don't kill off their assets when they want to pass off some vital information, or else no one would work as an asset for the agency anymore.

I was referring to Alison and the Russians, not the CIA .

Edited November 17, 2015 by VioletMarx

[parandroid]

 

The problem isn't that viewers know more than Saul. As I said in my post, he knows the Russians have infiltrated the CIA, including his off book mission with Quinn. Dar isn't willing to listen but that shouldn't be surprising given how elaborate the Russians have framed him. 

No, he doesn't. He has not had contact with Quinn so he and Quinn haven't had a chance to compare notes. And perhaps I'm not remembering the scene right, but I thought Carrie only mentioned that the Russians had "infiltrated your killbox", not the specific mechanisms (i.e the codes, the phones, etc). One way that Saul could have interpreted Carrie's statement is that the Russians know who he is targeting, but their attempts on Carrie's life have nothing to do with using Peter to do the job.

 

But then he decides to trust Allison precisely at the moment red flags should be going up. Set a trap, test her then trust her. I suppose he was preoccupied with defection and Carrie's "death" wouldn't remain a secret for long anyway,  given his contacting During. I miss the Saul with the long cons.

But there is no end to this sort of paranoia. If he really were in that frame of mind, why stop with Allison? Dar Adal is a suspect as well. We know that Dar Adal is innocent, but Saul doesn't. People in the real world don't go around distrusting everyone. One can't operate like that for any reasonable timeframe without heading for the loony bin. We are social animals, and we implicitly trust the tribe. In fact, sometimes it takes a lot more than evidence to shake one's faith in the tribe. 

 

To take it one step further, the simplest answer would be the assume that Carrie has been compromised and is running a false flag operation against the CIA / Saul. Why should Saul believe anything of what Carrie said? Because he trusts her. The same way he trusts Dar Adal and Allison.

[parandroid]

 

I miss the Saul with the long cons.

I'm not sure that this Saul ever existed on Homeland. Yes, Saul has had long term strategies (S3 with Iran, for example), but we the viewer have always been privy to his strategy. Homeland has always played the viewer straight. This is not 24 or (barf) Alias where the viewer is constantly being surprised by conspiracies within conspiracies within....

Edited November 17, 2015 by parandroid

[FurryFury]

Kind of a weak episode. I think separating Quinn from the major plotline was a very bad decision. He shines with Carrie and the rest of the CIA. I don't give a damn about Syria at this moment.

 

I hope that Saul's defection at the end will have major consequences, because I, for one, didn't expect it. 

 

I didn't like it that Allison turned out be a Russian spy from the get go. She does feel too emotional for that. It's hard to believe a person who's been a successful double agent for decades would have such weak nerves.

[ahpny]

"I don't get why he has his own private chapel..."

Many ancestral European estates had chapels. Some even had its own priest. These estates had numerous family and servants making it like a small parish.

 

Indeed, see Brideshead Revisited. That’s what that scene reminded me of for some reason. In real life, I've seen such chapels in Danish estates.

[slowpoked]

I was referring to Alison and the Russians, not the CIA .

Gotcha. Yeah, that didn't make sense. You think Alison would tie up that loose end, considering she is going through great lengths to prevent Carrie from meeting Nazari.

 

I have a question for you guys - when Dar told Saul "I told you she will eventually take you down, and she did..." Does Dar mean Allison? Or Carrie? I thought it was Carrie at first, but then I figured that didn't make sense, since Carrie hasn't been in the CIA for a couple of years now, and Saul hasn't mentioned anything about Carrie bringing the info about the Russians to Dar.

[Mistletoe]

I didn't like it that Allison turned out be a Russian spy from the get go. She does feel too emotional for that. It's hard to believe a person who's been a successful double agent for decades would have such weak nerves.

  

Man up Allison and Saul for eff's sake buy a clue. Saul and Dar cannot both be this oblivious can they? *fingers crossed for the long con*

I have a question for you guys - when Dar told Saul "I told you she will eventually take you down, and she did..." Does Dar mean Allison? Or Carrie? I thought it was Carrie at first, but then I figured that didn't make sense, since Carrie hasn't been in the CIA for a couple of years now, and Saul hasn't mentioned anything about Carrie bringing the info about the Russians to Dar.

My first thought was Allison. She wanted Dar to offer Saul's head up on a platter to the Germans in lieu of hers, post data breach. Dar didnt hesitate to clue Saul in. I'm thinking Dar knows/suspects more than he is letting on and again...*fingers crossed for the long con*.

Also, I REALLY hope that Carrie/Quinn/Saul reunite by season's end, because right now it feels like two different shows.

[HollaMcDollar]

During casually mentions that the Red Army passed through his father's estate back in the day. Any chance he's a Rusky too? It might account for sudden change of heart toward Carrie. Maybe he's in the documents too.

There is a theory amongst a descent sized segment of the western intelligence community that the Russians are behind Assange, Wikileaks, Snowden, etc., so it wouldn't be impossible that the show would go that way & include Düring as part of an elaborate Russian web set up to expose US secrets. You'll notice, in real life, the major government document stealing cases always involve the US & her allies.

[VioletMarx]

I have a question for you guys - when Dar told Saul "I told you she will eventually take you down, and she did..." Does Dar mean Allison? Or Carrie?

 

I thought Carrie because she is the reason he downloaded those files and that's the reason he's being sent home.

 

So, are we to assume that Allison has been the mole all along? Like, back to season 1? I was rewatching something from 1 or 2 over the summer, I can't remember exactly what, am it occurred to me that we had never found out who had given out some piece of information that had comprised some CIA mission. I wish I could remember what it was. Back on TWoP we spent a lot of time wondering who the mole was. We haven't met Allison until this season, but she seems to have been in the CIA for a while, right?

Edited November 17, 2015 by VioletMarx

[slowpoked]

I thought Carrie because she is the reason he downloaded those files and that's the reason he's being sent home.

 

But does Dar know that though? I think the only thing Dar knows at this point is that he gave the files to During. I don't think Allison will spill the beans regarding Carrie since she's a loose end she's trying to clean up.

 

Makes sense that it's Allison after what Mistletoe said - maybe there was an off-camera conversation between Dar and Saul that Allison is quite a dangerous woman since she went behind his back regarding the leak of the files.

[mrspidey]

During casually mentions that the Red Army passed through his father's estate back in the day. Any chance he's a Rusky too? It might account for sudden change of heart toward Carrie. Maybe he's in the documents too.

The Red Army passed through large parts of Eastern Germany, especially around Berlin. That doesn't imply anything. 

I mean, if he were with the russians then he's doing a terrible job helping them get rid of Carrie.