The West Wing Season Five: Transition and Recovery

[BizBuzz]

The fifth season opens with US forces successfully rescuing Zoey Bartlet from her abductors. Bartlet takes the presidency back from Acting President Walken, but is forced back into a level of powerlessness. He comes to terms with his actions that led to his daughter's kidnapping, a new Republican Speaker of the House (Walken has had to resign in order to assume the presidency) who forces Bartlet into several decisions he doesn't want to make, including the nomination of an unimpressive Democrat, "Bingo Bob" Russell, for Vice President. The conflict with the new Speaker comes to a head in "Shutdown", when the Speaker tries to force Bartlet into cutting federal spending more than had been agreed to and Bartlet refuses to sign the budget, forcing the federal government into a shutdown. Bartlet regains some of his power, cutting a deal to get a liberal Chief Justice of the United States, and season five ends with a bombing in Gaza leading Bartlet to push for Israeli peace talks and Josh to be closer to Donna after she is critically wounded. The fifth season begins toward the end of Bartlet's first year of his second term (fifth year overall) in office. By the end of the season, however, over a year has elapsed.

 

Summary provided by Wikipedia

7A WF 83429

The Dogs of War

Jefferson Lives

Han

Constituency of One

Disaster Relief

Separation of Powers

Shutdown

Abu el Banat

The Stormy Present

The Benign Prerogative

Slow News Day

The Warfare of Genghis Khan

An Khe

Full Disclosure

Eppur si muove

The Supremes

Access

Talking Points

No Exit

Gaza

Memorial Day

[Guest]

I know I don't necessarily ask for spoilers usually. However, please tell me there is a scene where Zoey breaks up with the French jerk? And preferably kicks him in the balls- repeatedly.

Or at least Charlie punched him out?

[betsyboo]

I know I don't necessarily ask for spoilers usually. However, please tell me there is a scene where Zoey breaks up with the French jerk? And preferably kicks him in the balls- repeatedly.

Or at least Charlie punched him out?

you don't see him again. The Secret Service doesn't take kindly to anyone - much less a foreign national - drugging the first daughter's drink.

[BW Manilowe]

you don't see him again. The Secret Service doesn't take kindly to anyone - much less a foreign national - drugging the first daughter's drink.

I'm pretty sure Betsyboo's right (I haven't been able to watch my DVDs for awhile). You see him for a bit, right after Zoey's kidnapped (when Josh or whomever is trying to get any useful info he can outta him, but he's too high to be useful so they decide to get a blood sample to find out what, exactly, he took besides the Ecstasy he told Zoey he slipped into her drink, before she was kidnapped). Then I think he's referred to, but not physically seen, for an ep or so after that. After that, he goes off to Mandyville--never to be seen or heard from again. Though I think Zoey mentions him periodically for a few eps. So Zoey & Jean-Paul's breakup occurs offscreen.

[Guest]

So I watched the budget negotiation episodes last night.  I hated seeing Josh marginalized so I cheered audibly when the President wanted him back in the War Room.  Ugh though to everything with the First Lady.  She irritates me so much that her coming back and helping to resolve the crisis really annoyed me. Especially since the whole reason she was away pouting was so ridiculous.  I'm struggling to see Steven Culp as anyone but Rex Van de Camp, but I'm sure I'll get over it.

[txhorns79]

One thing I wondered, and if anyone knows, please tell, was Angela Blake originally meant to eventually become a regular on the show?  She was in a number of episodes, then I think she kind of just disappeared. 

[Eeksquire]

Can we talk for a moment about how annoying the intern is? Because I find him totally unwatchable.

[betsyboo]

Can we talk for a moment about how annoying the intern is? Because I find him totally unwatchable.

swimtern??  :-))  (tm TWOP, LTG, I think))

 

Yes, but the intern brings us his Uncle, which leads to a hilarious exchange between Toby and drunken Josh (a top five discussion between the two, not to mention The Supremes is in my Top 5, regardless of the lack of Sorkin) about chain-yanking.

[txhorns79]

Yes, but the intern brings us his Uncle, which leads to a hilarious exchange between Toby and drunken Josh (a top five discussion between the two, not to mention The Supremes is in my Top 5, regardless of the lack of Sorkin) about chain-yanking.

 

But the presence of swimtern (does LTG post at Previously TV?  I liked his recaps) also leads to one of the worst scenes in the entire show, i.e. Josh yelling at the Capitol Building.  

Edited November 23, 2015 by txhorns79

[betsyboo]

But the presence of swimtern (does LTG post at Previously TV?  I liked his recaps) also leads to one of the worst scenes in the entire show, i.e. Josh yelling at the Capitol Building.  

yup! LTG.jon

[Guest]

I haven't been commenting as much on this season.  Honestly, part of that has been the episodes have seemed a little quieter and part of it is that I'm finding it hard to watch parts of it about the unrest in the Middle East so close after recent world events.  (I'm not trying to get political; just on an emotional level I had to step back for a week or so.)

 

However, I have a few comments. :)

 

Abu el Banat - ugh.  I really disliked this one.  First, it was that whole casual sexism thing that I see in so much of the series.  People feeling sorry for Jed Bartlet because he has daughters.  The whole episode overall just felt flat, but that could be because I don't really like much of the first family. 

 

The Stormy Present - Probably one of my least favorite episodes to date, but I did want to say that Mellie Grant was in the White House! ;)

 

The Benign Prerogative - That was really sad.  :(

[txhorns79]

First, it was that whole casual sexism thing that I see in so much of the series.

 

Seriously.  How many times on the show does Josh's go to insult for another man essentially boil down to him just saying the other guy is bad because he is acting like a woman? 

[SingleMaltBlonde]

Can we talk for a moment about how annoying the intern is? Because I find him totally unwatchable.

 

I will say he is annoying but rings true.  I work at a large company and I have had to put up with multiple interns like him.

 

Edited November 25, 2015 by SingleMaltBlonde

[Guest]

Slow News Day was a really good episode.  I was worried for Toby there for a few minutes that he was going to get fired.  :(  Part of this is

I heard from a friend that they love West Wing but hated how Toby's character left so I was like "Uh oh. Does he get fired? With 2.5 seasons left?!?!?

 I don't love Toby's anger issues at time and I didn't like much of his Season 4 plot, but I do love his idealism. It's a good contrast to Josh's more practical cynicism.  (Not a criticism of Josh. I just think the administration needed both of them to add balance.)

[PeterPirate]

These are definitely "Your mileage may vary" moments, haha.  I like Abu El Banat and The Stormy Present. Not a fan of Slow News Day.

 

And I am a minor fan of Swimterm. He was an entertaining foil to the "goody-goody"-ness of the main characters. They are great, and they make the show go and all, but it was nice to have an alternate personality to shake things up. 

[Guest]

Okay, back to the sexism theme- Season5 seems heavy on it. Josh and the NASA lady- he tells her he used a telescope to look in the girl's dorm right after blowing her off in a meeting? Then the CJ / Hoynes thing was a disappointment.

How is Abby practicing without a license? Even if she voluntarily resigned it, she still doesn't have one, right?

[Moose135]

She didn't resign her license, she voluntarily "suspended" it, so she still had it, just chose to not practice with it.

[Guest]

She didn't resign her license, she voluntarily "suspended" it, so she still had it, just chose to not practice with it.

Thanks. I couldn't remember the details.

[txhorns79]

The Stormy Present - Probably one of my least favorite episodes to date, but I did want to say that Mellie Grant was in the White House! ;)

 

And as a blonde!  The episode itself is meh.  Toby is an absolute ghoul when talking about the dead President and his aides over the phone with the former aides all standing maybe less than a foot in front of him.  

 

I will say I do like Lily Tomlin, and was glad when she joined the cast.  The role itself seemed a little small for her, but she made it much more interesting than it probably was supposed to be.  I almost wish "Access" had followed Debbie in her day, rather than having to bother with CJ, and the staff we mostly never saw again. 

Edited November 30, 2015 by txhorns79

[Guest]

Admiral Fitzwallace?!? I'm so sad. Donna better not die. Her emails Josh is reading now make me nervous like he's reading them posthumously. But they wouldn't really kill Donna, right?

Ok, I'll shut up until I finish the episode.

[Guest]

Ok, everything is fine now.

I like the new National Security lady.

[Guest]

By the way, I have no idea how any of you watched this in real time. Waiting for season breaks and even week waits at times must have been awful!

Or maybe I just have no patience. Also an option.

[AriAu]

By the way, I have no idea how any of you watched this in real time. Waiting for season breaks and even week waits at times must have been awful!

 

You watched the episodes over again on VCR tapes and then went to TWOP and read the recaps and forums and then went back and watched them again to see everything that you missed (or patted yourself on the back for everything you caught).

The wait from Season 2 to Season 3 was bad, but all of the tumult from Season 4 to Season 5 lead to a lot of (ultimately deserved) angst.

[betsyboo]

RIP Fitz. The Pres visit with his wife about broke me.

[Guest]

Remember Season 1 when I was all "I don't like this Josh and Donna thing!"?

I was clearly very wrong.

[Guest]

Wait, wait, wait. I just realized that since I'm on Season 6 now, I'm almost out of seasons! Can't they make more? What purpose will my life have?

[Moose135]

Wait, wait, wait. I just realized that since I'm on Season 6 now, I'm almost out of seasons! Can't they make more? What purpose will my life have?

 

You really think watching the series once is enough? I'm on re-watch 8,427 myself...

[Guest]

Well, obviously I'll rewatch it (already looking forward to it) but it just isn't the same. ;)

[Melancholy]

Although for some good news deaja, as far as I'm concerned, you've watched the worst part of the series (S5). IMO, Season 6 is a big improvement, and S7 is an improvement on S6. S7 doesn't quite reach the heights of S1-4 in terms of dialogue and...magic but I'd argue that it's maybe better plotted. 

[BizBuzz]

Ahhhhh, you are done with Season 5, thank goodness.  That was just painful.  

 

Except for The Supremes, one of my very favorite post Sorkin episodes.

 

Wait, wait, wait. I just realized that since I'm on Season 6 now, I'm almost out of seasons! Can't they make more? What purpose will my life have?

 

Like someone else said ... you just watch them over and over.  You will be SHOCKED at how much you miss, even on watch number 8,427.  I remember as recent as this year I saw something in the closing credits of the Pilot, and I was like, dang, I never saw THAT before.  HA!

[txhorns79]

Season 6 is a big improvement, and S7 is an improvement on S6. S7 doesn't quite reach the heights of S1-4 in terms of dialogue and...magic but I'd argue that it's maybe better plotted.

 

Oh gosh yes, the election storyline really gives the show a direction that was lacking throughout Season 5.  And who can forget the love that dare not speak its name between Josh and Santos? 

[Guest]

Ahhhhh, you are done with Season 5, thank goodness. That was just painful.

Except for The Supremes, one of my very favorite post Sorkin episodes.

Like someone else said ... you just watch them over and over. You will be SHOCKED at how much you miss, even on watch number 8,427. I remember as recent as this year I saw something in the closing credits of the Pilot, and I was like, dang, I never saw THAT before. HA!

Kind of like how just today I noticed CJ still has her goldfish from Danny? ;)

Also, this feels like an appropriate place to confess that I had today off and decided to watch one episode while eating breakfast and folding laundry. Then the car exploded and here I am on Season 6 episode 4.

[Moose135]

Kind of like how just today I noticed CJ still has her goldfish from Danny? ;)

 

Pay attention to the bowl when they show Gail...

[betsyboo]

Kind of like how just today I noticed CJ still has her goldfish from Danny? ;)

Also, this feels like an appropriate place to confess that I had today off and decided to watch one episode while eating breakfast and folding laundry. Then the car exploded and here I am on Season 6 episode 4.

Welcome to the club, Deaja. Welcome to the club.

Edited December 1, 2015 by betsyboo

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

*Obligatory I liked season 5 post*

 

I place it above season 3 

[BizBuzz]

*Obligatory I liked season 5 post*

 

I place it above season 3 

 

Cool ... could you share what you liked about it?

 

In going over the various episodes, I find there was more than just one I did enjoy.  So I am not sure if my feelings are tied up in my feelings on how both Sam and Aaron were no longer around and it was a transition season for me more than anything else.

[AriAu]

*Obligatory I liked season 5 post*

 

Cool ... could you share what you liked about it?

 

Wait, there was a season 5-I refuse to believe that it existed.

[Guest]

I think Season 5 had a good start and a good finish. The kidnapping arc was pretty riveting and I liked that they didn't just gloss over some of the issues. And I liked the last two episodes with the Gaza stuff.

 

What do I know though? I don't even know who the next President will be.

 

And I'm going to quote from above because I totally missed this the first time (credit txhorns) but it is funny if you read my post about Josh and Santos in the Season 6 thread.

 

And who can forget the love that dare not speak its name between Josh and Santos?

[BizBuzz]

Wait, there was a season 5-I refuse to believe that it existed.

 

Wait ... you have never seen The Supremes?

[jaytee1812]

I'm watching The Supremes, again.

I love Glenn Close as 'the patron saint of a women's right to choose'.

Also I've always liked Deirdre Lovejoy, she one of those actors who pops up everywhere and she's always excellent. I wish we'd seen more of Lisa Wolfe.

[AriAu]

Wait ... you have never seen The Supremes?

 

I believe that The Supremes was written by Sorkin and he gave it to Debra Cahn and therefore it is NOT a Season 5 episode, especially since it seems nothing like any of the others, which I refuse to acknowledge as having happened. To be clear, I have no basis at all for this position, I never heard a rumor to that extent or anything, but it is my story and I am sticking to it!

Edited December 4, 2015 by AriAu

[kassygreene]

Nope, the writer also did commentary on the DVD and talked about her process.  Guild rules being what they are, if Sorkin had had anything to do with this, even a simple story idea, he would have been entitled to credit and pay.  The Guilds are pretty strict about that.

[BigBeagle]

I also think Season 5, overall, is a bit of a letdown from the previous seasons, but I give it a pass because John Wells' team was still finding its legs.

 

The kidnapping arc was excellent, IMO, as was John Goodman's character (although he was little more than comic relief in "The Stormy Present").

 

"The Supremes" might be the finest hour of the show (YMMV, I concede). I've watched it dozens of times and still enjoy it immensely.

 

The rest of the season, however, is not terribly re-watchable.

[rippleintime17]

I just finished a rewatch of Season 5 and it was fine. There's a notable shift in tone and even execution (dramatic music, etc.) and the most notable character difference is undoubtedly Leo but it's still the show and the characters and it still has what made it so enjoyable in first four seasons. I was a HUGE ER fan and I didn't watch West Wing until a few years ago and it's funny to me how you can tell when people who were involved with ER came on board with West Wing because some of their tendencies become apparent. 

 

I wish we had an ER forum here, btw! No one misses John Carter like I do, I guess.

[Moose135]

I wish we had an ER forum here, btw! No one misses John Carter like I do, I guess.

I don't know how active it is, but we do: http://forums.previously.tv/forum/1435-er/

[rippleintime17]

I don't know how active it is, but we do: http://forums.previously.tv/forum/1435-er/

Oh, cool! I was never able to find it when searching for shows by letter. I guess I was looking in the wrong place.

[galaxygirl76]

The fact that they killed off Fitz still makes me mad and sad at the same time. However, since I love me some Terry O'Quinn I'm ok with his replacement though he probably would have been around more if it wasn't for that little show he ended up doing during the West Wing's run.

[alexvillage]

I don't think I actually watched season 5 before. I might have skipped it or watched all the episodes on FF.

I am half way now and I am regurgitating Donna. Seriously! The shoving Donna down my throat is making me sick. Donna is so chirpy! Donna is so sensitive! Donna is so wise! Donna is so funny! Donna is so sweet! Donna sees what nobody else sees! Donna is everywhere! Donna even talks to the President whenever she wants! Donna can buy design dresses (nope, not a WH staffer she cannot)! Donna is the only assistant that goes to State Dinners (or whatever that was and that no Donna-level assistant would get as a staffer)! Ugh!

I never liked her but this season has been impossible. There is a certain amount of disbelief I can take from TV shows. This much Donna, all the time has gone off my charts. Someone in the production team reeeeaaaaaly wanted us to love her, root for her, and maybe forget that the actress cannot deliver, convincingly, that much face time. Sorry, JM, you just are not it. 

I know most people shipped Josh/Donna and that's good for ratings. I'm not most people, I am weird. I wish they had paired them up sooner and spared me of the Donna nauseating overdose.  

[teddysmom]

I'm just starting Season 5 on my rewatch, and have in mind the comments of viewers, actors, etc that after Season 4 the show went to hell.  Lisa Weil was just on the podcast, and why she was so adamant about not watching it after Sorkin left, when she was only in one episode, was odd, IMO. She played the girl who outed Leo's addiction problem. 

I do notice a change in tone, it feels kind of "down", and it seems like Josh is being more of a douche than ever.  He treated Rep Theil terribly, then his little intern made a call and straightened it out so he would vote to confirm Russell.  At times I wonder if someone with Josh's temperament would keep a job like deputy Chief of Staff. 

At the West Wing event at Austin, which they play on the WW Weekly podcast, Sorkin said, for what it's worth, that he didn't leave the show in a bad way, that he and Schlamme just decided after four seasons, they were done.  He did the kidnapping arc so that when John Wells came in for Season 5, he had a story he could finish. They brought Lawrence O"Donnell back in as well. 

I don't recall what the story or gossip was when he left, maybe he was just worn out from writing four 22 episodes tv seasons. 

Agree that The Supremes is a great episode, Season 6 gets better with the campaigns and 7 is even better.  I've never understood why they wrote Leo out as Chief of Staff, was John Spencer having health issues?  

It seems like they made everyone kind of angry, which is maybe how people feel after four plus years as a WH staffer.  Most don't last that long. 

The one thing I did like about Season 7 is that Donna finally got out from under the spell of Josh. Yes they end up together, but she was definitely in control. Personally I liked Cliff, the  attorney played by Mark Feurstein. 

[Bastet]

Quote

I don't recall what the story or gossip was when he left, maybe he was just worn out from writing four 22 episodes tv seasons. 

Burn-out, the drug problems, divorce, dealing with continual pressure from the production company and network because, while he produced wonderful television, it was always late and over budget (plus ratings had dropped off significantly in the fourth season), rumors he was going to start getting notes rather than having free reign ... there was a lot going on.