The West Wing Season Five: Transition and Recovery

[teddysmom]

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/west-wing-uncensored-aaron-sorkin-703010

This is a great article from 2014 with Sorkin, Schlamme, and some of the cast and NBC execs about the show.  Sorkin addresses being arrested in 2001.  

There is a great story of a prank Josh Malina played on Brad Whitford in Season 7. 

[twinkietwin94]

Ok so I like the first episode of season 5, it feels pretty good when watching but the second episode is just UGH!!! And I just don't understand why everyone thinks it was so bad that President Bartlet stepped down temporarily, to me it seems to be the most noble thing to do bc he's not willing to risk his own child's life to save his country and I don't know many parents that would be. I think Will's response that it's a stunning act of patriotism needed to be used in a press release or something, I also wonder how the average citizen would feel. I think I'd have to appreciate that the man made the choice he felt was best for the country and respect that and him no matter whether I agreed with his politics or not.

[twinkietwin94]

Ok I'm just bogged down on my rewatch, can't seem to get through this season but can't bring myself to skip episodes though I know I could. Taking a break and watching/listening to the commentary on the 3rd and 4th season episodes but I think that's making it even harder to go back to season 5

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 11/17/2015 at 10:51 AM, deaja said:

So I watched the budget negotiation episodes last night.  I hated seeing Josh marginalized so I cheered audibly when the President wanted him back in the War Room.  Ugh though to everything with the First Lady.  She irritates me so much that her coming back and helping to resolve the crisis really annoyed me. Especially since the whole reason she was away pouting was so ridiculous.  I'm struggling to see Steven Culp as anyone but Rex Van de Camp, but I'm sure I'll get over it.

I just started watching, but agree with everything you stated. As for the bolded part: I was struggling too, but for me, Steven Culp will always be CIA Clayton Webb from JAG. Yes, I was watching both shows simultaneously. Well, I think, based on what I've seen so far, I stopped watching this show at the fifth season. Real Life got in the way.

I'm not really connecting with this season, and as I posted in the other thread about this season, the time jump between Zoey's kidnapping makes me bash my head. She was kidnapped in May--a time when Toby's babies were due--and arrived early! Yet, at the beginning of this season, it's the day before and of the Fourth of JULY and they're saying it's only been two days since they found her--Abbey's "look at the bruises on her face!" to Jed, as if it's his fault, she has them.

And now that I've spoiled myself for what's to come, I can be prepared, but not really, because when Fitz told Leo about how he promised his wife a month's vacation, and it was 32 years ago, and he was thinking of retiring, he was toast.

[GHScorpiosRule]

20 hours ago, AriAu said:

Let's all just say that Season 5 never happened....and if she feels this way now, just wait until she watches a few more episodes!

On the other hand, I am very jealous of her-she has 55 episodes to go and only 28 days left so she will be busy enough to miss all the crap of the real campaign. She does get to replace the misogyny of Sorkin and Wells with the real misogyny of one of the candidates!

Arrgggggggh! This is awful. I don't recognize anyone! Anyone! The President is pissing me off, LEO is pissing me off, what happened to Toby?? What's happening to Josh is, ugh, I don't have words. Okay, wait. I still love CJ. Her I still recognize. I miss Sam. What the fuck, Will?

Did I miss something? Why did Will go to work for the Vice President? I love Gary Cole, but I really don't like the character. And I just finished up to "The Stormy Present", and so glad that my favorite team have seem to had shed the pod that was covering them.

And no, you aren't going crazy if you saw this exact post in the Sara's Diary thread, because that's where I initially posted this.

I don't like the tone of this season. Like, at all. I mean, I get that Sorkin left, but Lawrence O'Donnell came back; it still had the same consultants and producers from the previous four years (most from the Clinton Administration, I noticed), and throughout the previous four years, though Sorkin wrote practically all of the scripts, there were some where the "teleplay by" and "story by" were written by Dee Dee Meyers, Gene Sperling, and other writers who didn't leave when Sorkin did. And since the first two seasons are the BEST, and O'Donnell was producing then, why such a fall in quality when he comes back? Seriously. Watching this season is more like slogging through it.  And I feel just like @deaja, that I'm liking less and less, the First Lady and her attitude toward Jed. Must have been the hair style change. Like I said above, about Liz, this isn't Abbey's first rodeo in politics, and to lay the blame at Jed's feet for Zoey's kidnapping, when  Mikhail Mxyzptlk Jean-Paul's actions played a part-what with drugging her drink and all...not to say that Zoey wouldn't have been kidnapped, but she may have been able to hit the panic button. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

Donna continues to bug, and as much as I like Mary Louise Parker, I just can't stand Amy Gardner. And like someone else said here or in the season thread, one of the most annoying things (and why I had to have my subtitles enabled) was her talking with her mouth shut/barely open. Could barely understand what she was saying 90% of the time.

Please tell me it gets better!

Oh! One of the funniest moments was when Jed...oh, wait. That's from Season One. Oops.

ETA: So glad to see both Josh and Jed get their balls back in "Shutdown."  And it's so scary how much of that episode, this season, really, reminds me of what President Obama had to deal with. Just who the fuck did Clayton Haffley think he was?

Edited October 14, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule
spelling!

[GHScorpiosRule]

Aaand I finally finished this season, and all of y'all were right; so far it is the worst, and I'm just going to go with @AriAu and pretend that this show was only six seasons long and not seven, because just like Law & Order: Exile NEVER HAPPENED!, neither did this one. I started the next season and will just go through them, and then Rewatch The first four, and post my thoughts more coherently.

But I will say that I didn't care for the tone of this season, and was looking for a handy barf bag when "Gaza" and "Memorial Day" was on. Like, a fucking love letter to Donna??? And Josh? Give me a fucking break. To see this show, one would think that Donna was the bestest assistant that ever assisted, and that she deserved to go on all those trips, and her whining and passive aggressiveness and childish, petulant refusal to talk to Josh because she couldn't go to Brussels, because she PACKED! And expected to be able to go, and Why?

Then there's that petulant little shit of an intern, who, again and again, made Josh, who is supposed to be this very smart guy, look like an idiot. Again, why? Speaking of little shits, I officially hate Will. There. I said it. And I'm pretty sure that I'm in the minority, because I've read nothing but love for him in the threads. Honestly, I think I need to do some homework again, because you would think the President and Vice President are adversaries and not on, like, the same team, what with all the in-fighting I've seen, and then Will's demanding that Bingo Bob deserves to see advance copies of whatever speech Toby is writing for the President, as if BOB is the President.

And what happened to Bonnie and Ginger? They replaced them with that Rena person, who was...trash detail, but was able to still work during the shutdown. And I must have zoned when Toby told Leo that she was a "lawsuit waiting to happen" and that's why he hired her? Can someone explain that to me, please? thankyousomuch.

I don't want to nitpick mention the gaffes/mistakes, here so @BizBuzz, can we get a continuity fail/screwup thread?

But since this happened over the space of three or four episodes, I'll mention it here--that Chief Justice Ashland, when he collapsed and was hospitalized, they (Toby, Josh, Leo) talked about how old he was, that he was "84" and it was time to find his replacement, and then in "Supremes" (which was an awesome episode), Toby says he's "82." Sure, it was a small thing, but those that "know" me, know I'm such an anal retentive ass when it comes to details, grammar, punctuation, etc, that this shit would also ping on my AR radar. Then there's Annie, who was 12 in the pilot, which would make her about 17 now, yet Jed told someone that she's getting ready to start high school now. Say WHAT???!!

And I HATED those bangs on Deputy National Security Adviser Kate. She looked all of 12. Or the hairstyle did. And yes, I read that she did that because Mary McCormack was pregnant in real life. It was still ridiculous and stupid looking.

Anyhoo, backtracking (sorry, I'm going to be all over the place because I didn't know about this forum and missed the rewatch, which I could have done while recovering from my mastectomy and chemo), I think the last two episodes should have focused more on Fitzwallace, because yes, he was the more important character for me and he had been murdered and his was a more important role anyway. So not interested in Donna soaking in the culture and talking to people, even though I was swooning over Jason Isaacs's Oirish brogue, which I'm a sucker for, just like the Scots brogue. For awhile, I thought he might have had a hand in it. Mostly because he's always played the villain in all of the movies/shows I've seen him in (The Patriot, Highlander (the tv show), and a few DCAU animated movies as Sinestro, Lex Luthor)).

How niiiiiice. First Lady decides she's done punishing Jed and has returned to the White House, but is now going to "get her hands dirty" whatever the hell that means.  And that she's going to do whatever the hell she wants and doesn't care how that looks or what people will say.  And I stand corrected: Liz is definitely her mom's favorite/daughter, and Zoey is Daddy's Little Girl, so Ellie being in the middle--I really empathize with her, and I'm the oldest of two, who was/is Daddy's Little Girl. I just...I mean, all of them should realize they're not normal--that they've been in the public's eye, since forever--all their lives, so it's not like being the First Lady, First Daughters is a brand new experience for them.

I did love seeing Big Bird, though. How he sat next to CJ and just looked at her, and she ended up leaving. Poor Big Bird. And the rest of the muppets. What can I say? I grew up watching Sesame Street.

And not a fan of "Mz Anders" who slapped Charlie. I hated that whole scene. Maybe it's more my love for Gus, er, Charlie, but I was very angry on his behalf.

I miss the...politics of the early seasons, and am not a fan of the more...spy/espionage/war intrigue/plots. I'm just not. Though I did feel tickled that Terry O'Quinn was doing double duty--as Army General on this show, and Retired Navy Admiral on JAG, the latter which ended one year before this show.

And it's just hitting so close to home, the disrespect that this show's Congress has toward Bartlet, mirrors the same disrespect toward President Obama.

I'm of two minds about the way this show is handling MS. Because I also have MS, and it's similar to Bartlet's. Though whenever I've had relapses, it wasn't as bad as his, nor did I ever need injections to "stop" the attack. I've had numbness/tingling sensations, on my hands, legs, half side of my body; my vision going blurry, so that I saw three of everything.  However, I did take weekly injections to help prevent attacks, and the name is escaping me, because I haven't taken them in 10 years, and I've been in remission, no attacks whatsoever. The name starts with a C.  But I also know that there are various stages of MS that can occur in different people. I'm extremely lucky. But then again, I got breast cancer a couple of years ago, so there's that. I think that the show has...exaggerated Bartlet's MS attacks for drama purposes, because someone with remittent MS, wouldn't be so severe. Of course, this is based on my own experience. And now, at least within the past three years, there's a pill you can take. And I only know this because I used to play this game on Face Book called Criminal Case, and one of the ads would be this medication for MS.

Topic?

I want to punch Clayton's Haffley's face whenever he's onscreen.

I love CJ. She is beyond AWESOME and I want to be her when I grow up.

Edited October 17, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule
Formatting

[BizBuzz]

36 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I don't want to nitpick mention the gaffes/mistakes, here so @BizBuzz, can we get a continuity fail/screwup thread?

Sure, set one up!

[GHScorpiosRule]

14 minutes ago, BizBuzz said:

Sure, set one up!

But I SUCK, and I mean, really, really SUCK at witty titles! Can't you do it? pleeeeeeeaaazzzze???

[GHScorpiosRule]

ETA: I knew I forgot something!

I really liked Tim Matheson's Hoynes.  Bad enough that they wrote him off with that sex scandal, but then they did that whole interview/book deal, to dirty him up and make him a dirty ass skeazebucket, by revealing he put the moves on CJ and she gave in. WHY did they do that? Was it really necessary?

Maybe it's just my love for Matheson, and wish that we'd seen more of Hoynes, but I really didn't like that. Especially since he seemed like a good guy. I loved his friendship with Leo. What a waste.

[Driad]

Wasn't it Hoynes who invited Leo to his AA meeting masquerading as a poker game, for officials who were too recognizable to go to regular AA meetings?  I thought that was thoughtful.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, Driad said:

Wasn't it Hoynes who invited Leo to his AA meeting masquerading as a poker game, for officials who were too recognizable to go to regular AA meetings?  I thought that was thoughtful.

Yes. And I agree, it was. That's why I'm so upset over what they did to Hoynes by season's end.

[BizBuzz]

9 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

But I SUCK, and I mean, really, really SUCK at witty titles! Can't you do it? pleeeeeeeaaazzzze???

Done

[Guest]

I'm rewatching Season 5 right now (it's amazing how much more you pick up on the second watch).  Last night, I watched "Slow News Day" and I loved the fact that one of the biggest obstacles to Toby's deal was how he and Josh had treated people who had tried to deal before.  It was so true and also poignant.  It would have been more so if things hadn't at least somewhat worked out nicely for everyone at the end, but it brought a good point without being too preachy.

[Guest]

My rewatch keeps stalling because Season 5 is slow. I'm watching The Warfare of Genghis Khan right now and I just can't care about Josh looking at Mars.

[Melancholy]

I feel like TPTB threw a bunch of new characters at the audience in S5 in the hopes that the new actors would win a following and the affection of the audience in order to prove they should stay. TPTB were floating that scientist-woman as a serious Donna-delay love interest for Josh on the level of Joey Lucas or Amy Gardner but it's like that actress didn't wow the focus groups in 1 episode so she was discarded. 

[twinkietwin94]

I'm hung up on my rewatch on Season 5 again, trying not to skip episodes but ugh, just finished Han and moved on to Constituency of One yeah had to take a break and indulge in one of my other fave shows M*A*S*H. 'll come back to this in a bit bc I do like the next episode Disaster Relief. I don't really enjoy the season until I hit The Supremes then it picks up for me.

[Zola]

Season 5 is like panning the River Nile for gold - there are so few nuggets spending time looking for, but when you do track them down they really are wonderful gems!

Too many troughs, not enough peaks, and come the final couple of episodes, you find yourself in a world of predictable soap opera, that dragged into the early episodes of S6.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

I just rewatched season 5...maybe the 5th time.  Currently political situation changes lots of the scenes but I still can't get after what they do to Leo (and then redemed in the final season).  I get that Preisidents are tempted by the white whale that is peace in the middle east, I can't believe Leo wouldn't as well.

[Melancholy]

Leo was the only sensible one in that storyline. The only way that the peace process has a chance of working is if the Palestinians...guarantee peace. The show left it ambiguous if members of the Palestinian Authority condoned the bombing of the American delegation or just couldn't control Hamas/Hezbollah. However either way, they could not guarantee peace. The bombing of members of the American government is a particularly stunning example that the Palestinians could not guarantee peace because that attack was large, complicated, and directed at the only possible broker for getting back land...to American government figures on a mission for peace.  Bartlet wasn't doing what past American presidents like Bill Clinton did- trying to broker peace after some relative quiet when both sides were willing to come through the table. Or even having success like Jimmy Carter because the Egyptian government is a true government in control of its nation and thus, easier to deal with than the Palestinian Authority.

Instead, Bartlet was bullying Israel to give up their one bargaining chip to the Palestinians after the Palestinian Authority/Hezbolla/Hamas just stunningly demonstrated that the odds of getting peace in return were nill. And then after the Palestinians bombed high level American civilians, Jed commits American troops to secure his bullshit pyrrhic victory. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by Melancholy

[SingleMaltBlonde]

It's (ME Peace) a tempting White Whale but as I always try to remember Moby Dick doesn't end well for Ahab.  But then I also don't know how you don't try.

I think Fitz has a point "maybe you can get over it..."

[Guest]

My season is so annoying in places.

Tonight I'm watched Full Disclosure and Epper Su Muove and I need to discuss/complain.

I hate the CJ/Hoynes plot in Full Disclosure as well as the whole Hoynes plot.

Epper Su Muove- Jed is so annoying as he screams at and insults his senior staff for not protecting his daughter. Come on. And CJ makes a mistake in her relationship. It seems like she got dumped on two episodes in a row. Plus I hate any shows that showcase Ellie, it seems.

I don't remember disliking Season 5 so much, but it has majorly stalled my rewatch. I do really like Toby's assistant this season though. 

[Guest]

Fitz just agreed to go to the Middle East and I AM NOT OKAY!!!

This was easier when I didn't know what was coming. :(

[Guest]

So wait... No Exit... drill or not a drill? I think not a drill? 

And yes, I watched three episodes tonight. Don't be so judgmental. ;)

[Moose135]

9 minutes ago, deaja said:

And yes, I watched three episodes tonight. Don't be so judgmental. ;)

Only three? Slacker... ;-)

[Zola]

2 hours ago, Moose135 said:

Only three? Slacker... ;-)

True! But we're talking Season 5 here ;-)

[twinkietwin94]

On 6/30/2017 at 11:16 PM, deaja said:

So wait... No Exit... drill or not a drill? I think not a drill? 

And yes, I watched three episodes tonight. Don't be so judgmental. ;)

zero judging and I go back and forth on whether or not it was a drill every time I watch it

[Guest]

These last episodes of Season 5 are painful (starting with Gaza.) I don't just mean losing Fitzwallace. They were poorly written, in my opinion.

Plus I know what's coming with Leo now. :(

Edited to add spoiler bars because now that I've rewatched, it appears what I thought was the end of Season 5 is the beginning of Season 6!

[Zola]

From memory I have only watched the final 2 or 3 episodes once or twice in all the years of watching the show (if I was really being geeky I would say I have watched seasons 1-4 roughly nine times over the last 5 or 6 years; season 6 & 7 probably around twelve times - and when I say Season 6, I really mean everything after the first 6 episodes.)

But those last three episodes of S5, I just cannot, CANNOT watch!! They're appallingly bad on so many levels that I just end up shouting at the TV in consternation & despair. Even as standalone episodes, they're pretty horrid, and I very much doubt I will ever get to view them again in my lifetime (unless I'm drunk, drugged or tortured, lol)

Edited July 8, 2017 by Only Zola

[UYI]

Okay, so I finished season 5, and MUCH faster than I expected to. And I didn't hate it. Yay, I guess?

I LOVE Abbey, Liz, and Ellie. Come at me. :P

And I still love Will. I hate how mean Toby is to him sometimes. 

Poor Fitz. That killed me. :'(

I'm both anticipating and dreading the Josh/Donna stuff. Part of me still sees a brother-sister relationship. And I HATED the idea that Donna is at the point where literally the only reason she's still working at the WHITE HOUSE, of all places, is because of a crush on her boss? WTF? But I liked her and Terry O'Quinn, so of course they're not going to last.

I realized that part of the reason Amy was most likely gone most of the season is because Mary-Louise Parker was pregnant and giving birth...right as her then-longtime boyfriend, Billy Crudup, left her for Claire Danes. Poor woman.

I like Gary Cole as Vice President Russell, but it's really bizarre when you remember that he fought over Shelley Long with the show's OTHER VP, Tim Matheson, in A Very Brady Sequel. I wonder if the show was trolling us and did that on purpose. 

[Guest]

So The Supremes is a delightful episode. But..... I feel the whole premise is flawed. Like, instead of getting to possibly appoint two people to the Court, you split it down the middle? I get they really wanted and got their person as Chief Justice, but it still feels like there would have been A LOT more pushback on the plan from every corner!

I do love the end scene where Tony gets her autograph for Molly.