Spoiler Discussion Thread

[statsgirl]

I agree but I do find it amusing that every time someone pointed to Lance getting a LI as proof he was safe and that Laurel not having one meant she was in the grave, people on this board turned it around. Lance getting Donna as a love interest surely meant he was in the grave.

I think that was that as a trope, getting a love interest can go either way.  It could be that they were preparing to tell more of a storyline on a character, or it could be that they are ticking off all the remaining boxes on a character (achieving a certain status, crossing off an item on a wish list, finding love) before dispensing with the character forever.

 

So Lance getting a love interest could as easily have been finally finding love before he dies, as Laurel not having a love interest means that they don't care to write anything personal or specific for that character any more.

 

Turning it around and having the gun point at Quentin was a way of girding our loins for his death while not believing that they would have the guts to kill off Laurel.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Quentin hooking up with Donna was I think the first real clue for me that maybe he wasn't the one in the grave. I remember getting a text from a friend who gleefully pointed out that the show had just attached Quentin to Felicity via Donna. "They're cutting the strings loose," she said. That's how I saw it, too. (Yes, I'm not on the BC is in the grave train, but at this point it's more denial than actual disbelief. Doesn't mean me and my friends haven't started collecting GIFs of dead birds and celebrations. I believe in being prepared after all.) 

Edited March 6, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[blixie]

I can't believe they are finally killing Laurel when she's actually no longer even a problem. I mean I'm glad but it only makes me resent that they didn't cut the damn cord two years ago. RME.

[lexicon]

I can't believe they are finally killing Laurel when she's actually no longer even a problem. I mean I'm glad but it only makes me resent that they didn't cut the damn cord two years ago. RME.

 

Nah she's still very much a problem, for me at least. I never minded her in s1 and 2 but ever since she's joined the team she's been a constant source of annoyance. Now I'm being told that despite Oliver's superior training and experience and what I actually see onscreen, she's Oliver's equal. 

 

Her inorganic rise to BC aside, now she's not only considered the complete article as a fighter but has apparently become fast friends with FS and Diggle as well.  As has been said time and again on this board, the only person who gets to interact with everyone except Oliver is LL, she doesn't have her own storylines so to make up screentime she pops us everywhere. The need to prop and integrate her is the reason I haven't had a proper Diggle/Felicity in a season and I suppose with her gone Thea may actually start interacting with the rest of Team Arrow as well.

 

So yeah while I wish the cord had been cut earlier, I'm not about to look a gift horse in the mouth.

[TVHappy9463]

I thought this post by Paul was really interesting, it has so many meanings, and after all KC's postings making her look like she is working, this confuses things even more. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BClhXopjdNL/?taken-by=paulblackthorne

Edited March 7, 2016 by TVHappy9463

[Midnight Lullaby]

He posted a quote about the meaning of life on the day of his birthday..it doesn't seem weird to me. Not everything has to do with the show.

[tv echo]

If Laurel actually is the one who dies, then I hope the EPs accurately interpret the inevitable fan backlash.

 

IIRC, MG once said that 90% of their hate mail in S2 was against Sara, which may have contributed to their decision to kill off Sara in early S3.  However, we've speculated that the 'unexpectedly' big backlash against killing Sara may have then contributed to their decision to bring Sara back to life for LoT.

 

90% of the hate mail does not equal 90% of the fandom.  Only extremely unhappy people send hate mail to the show.  For example, if 80% of the fandom was happy with Sara's appearance in S2, then the hate mail would've come from, at most, 90% of that remaining 20% (or 18%).

 

So if Laurel dies, they can expect that nearly 100% of their hate mail will be about that death.  But again, only very unhappy people will send hate mail.

 

 

ETA: Found the MG response regarding hate mail...

geniewithwifi asked:
How do you stand the hate mails all of you get? How do you move past it and keep writing a magnificent show?

You just recognize that everyone’s entitled to their opinion.  Also, we don’t get as much hate mail as you might expect.  And the vast majority of the hate mail we do get is from people who are just angry that they’re not getting what the want immediately.  For example, last year, 95% – I’m guesstimating – of our hate mail was from people who were pissed off that we made Caity Lotz the Canary instead of making Katie Cassidy Black Canary.  But we always had the plan that you’re seeing unfold this year.  A lot of what looks like “hate” mail is really misguided “impatient” or “I don’t have faith in you” mail.

114 notes Feb 15th, 2015

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/111093805999/how-do-you-stand-the-hate-mails-all-of-you-get

Edited March 7, 2016 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

If the negative response over the leaked set photos is any indication, the outrage over Laurel dying is gonna be pretty contained. Plus: the jubilation is gonna be big, which is not exactly the default response to killing fictional characters.

 

I'm sure they'll get hate mail about it, and I'm PRETTY SURE the comic book sites are gonna read them the riot act. And they'll get hit for killing another lady character too. But the most telling thing MG said in that Tumblr answer for me is the part he says they don't get as much hate mail as we'd expect.

[Sakura12]

That hate mail probably came before Sara started developing as a much better character than Laurel. Then they obviously received something that made them reverse that decision and brought Sara back. 

 

No matter how many times they say that was always the plan, I will never believe them. They made sure Sara was dead, dead and even CL knew that meant she was done with the show. 

 

I wonder how much say DC has with them. Sara wasn't a DC character so they didn't need permission to kill her. But maybe DC was the one that told them to bring her back since she was a far more effective Canary. Geoff Johns wasn't shy about being a fan of Sara's Canary. They probably wish they had hired CL to play Dinah Lance. If Laurel dies (I still say if because we can't always have nice things) they needed permission from DC. Which if true DC gave it to them. That just makes me think that they have a badass Canary with Sara they don't need two of them especially one they barely remember exists. 

[dtissagirl]

I'm pretty convinced it wasn't DC, it was the WB. The CW was backing KC/Laurel. The WB was unimpressed [cue the Peter Roth story about how he was ~dazzled by EBR in 103].

 

The original premise the show was selling in S1 of a tortuous love triangle story was a flop throughout. Cue the EPs wanting to try something different with CL/Sara once S2 started.

 

And then the CW probably looked at the 2B ratings taking a hard dive after 213, and told Berlanti Prod that Sara didn't work for them. Cue killing Sara. Except it backfired, because this is a comedy of errors.

[hogwash]

I'll never understand why they thought that people would OK with Sara dying for Laurel. Even with the horrible ratings during Sara "takeover" episodes and the hatemail. Sara got hate but it was nothing compared to Laurel by the end of S02. 

 

I think everyone from fans to critics crapping on S03 played also a big part in getting Sara back. So yay for S04 being mostly good? 

[tangerine95]

I think MG said that about the most hate mail being about Sara being BC instead of Laurel as his way of making it seem like there was some huge push and desire for her to be BC and i doubt there was all that much of it. I think Sara got hate because she got in the way of two very popular aspects of the show, she stopped the olicity moments and build up when she got together with Oliver and she stopped the focus on OTA by sidelining Diggle and Felicity and making it the BC/GA show for awhile in the middle of the season. Like i love Sara and she's great on LoT but if she ever came back on arrow and did that again, I would dislike her bacause i just don't want to see that and there is a story i preferred she would be getting in the way of. So imo that happened in season 2 and its why Sara wasn't as popular as she is now when she stopped doing all that. Her BC was never the problem and imo thats what the fact that they got enough backlash to bring her back proved.

Edited March 7, 2016 by tangerine95

[bijoux]

That hate mail probably came before Sara started developing as a much better character than Laurel. Then they obviously received something that made them reverse that decision and brought Sara back. 

 

No matter how many times they say that was always the plan, I will never believe them. They made sure Sara was dead, dead and even CL knew that meant she was done with the show. 

 

I read that answer as Laurel becoming BC always being the plan, not resurrecting Sara. 

[looptab]

I'm pretty convinced it wasn't DC, it was the WB. The CW was backing KC/Laurel. The WB was unimpressed [cue the Peter Roth story about how he was ~dazzled by EBR in 103].

I needed more time than what I deem acceptable to decypher this paragraph :p

Anyway, if one were to base their decision on the state of the internet, it would seem that killing Felicity would meet the most positive audience response. Felicity/Olicity fans seems to have been chased away from everywhere except twitter. :/

[Sakura12]

They didn't say the hate mail was because of Olicity or OTA, they said they got hate mail because she was the Canary instead of Laurel. Everyone gets hate if they come between the popular ship. Any tv writer that is surprised by that should not be working in the entertainment business. However even then I think Sara gained a lot of fans with her being closer to the BC of the comics. 

 

Sara gained popularity before they killed her off, that's why there was backlash, well that and the way they killed her. Then they probably got hate mail about people wanting Sara to be the Canary instead of Laurel. Which is why Sara is back and is on her own show. And Laurel is probably dead. 

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

Twitter, Internet reaction and fan hate mail is fan talk. I appreciate that you are keeping it fairly neutral, but it's still fan talk. Please stick to talking about the show, not how people react to the show.

[looptab]

Twitter, Internet reaction and fan hate mail is fan talk. I appreciate that you are keeping it fairly neutral, but it's still fan talk. Please stick to talking about the show, not how people react to the show.

I respectfully disagree. It's a conversation on how fan response may influence the direction of the show. Not on the legitimacy of said response. Edited March 7, 2016 by looptab

[nksarmi]

I didn't watch season one or season two live (I binged them on Netflix), and even though I knew the character of Black Canary (and liked her) - I didn't realize her name was Dinah Lance.  So when Sara showed up - I thought she was just so amazingly awesome and I was instantly in love.  I remember prior to her arrival thinking that Felicity was adorable and Oliver should really consider what he was passing up in regards to her.  But then he and Sara worked for me on so many levels and I loved Felicity and Barry's chemistry so I was pretty happy with the state of things in season two.

 

The funny thing is that the only reason I am good with Oliver and Felicity now is really because of how adorable the actors are together.  While I understand why people didn't like Ray in regards to how he was written on Arrow - if they had written him how the LoT writers are - I would have loved him and Felicity together.  And to this day, I still think Felicity is the woman Barry has the most chemistry with (though he has had a couple of moments - mostly on Earth 2 - where I can see him and Iris together but that is definitely not most of the time). 

 

So until the end of season three - I never saw Oliver and Felicity as the only option.  But what would have never worked for me in a million years was Oliver and Laurel.  There hasn't been one single moment - in Flashbacks or current day - when I found the idea of them as a couple digestable.  So, I don't much care what their hate mail has been about - I think on some level they must realize what drives their ratings and it's not the classic comic book canon couple and it's not KC.

Edited March 7, 2016 by nksarmi

[tv echo]

Does anyone have the source link for that interview where SA talks about the show going back to doing what people loved before (or something like that)?  Thx.

[AyChihuahua]

Take this with a huge grain of salt, but someone on IMDB claimed to know someone who knows, and said Laurel dies saving Felicity. I would really prefer that not happen, bc it's just unnecessarily ramping up rage against Felicity, and by extension EBR, who is a real live person who gets a lot of abuse already. I'd much rather have Laurel die saving, well, anyone else. Oh, not Donna. Preferably Quentin. If they go this route I at least hope they in no way make Felicity look at fault, like I really really hope they don't have her do something dumb that puts her in danger.

 

Also, doesn't this seem a bit trolly of Guggie? He's dumb, yes, but he has to know that killing Laurel in that particular way would amp up the rage even more? The anti-Felicity rage right now is bad enough that DC disassociated itself from the Arrow subreddit.  

[Starfish35]

I hope not as well. I can see a lot of scenarios for Laurel's death, but that is one I fervently hope they stay away from.

[Velocity23]

It will be Thea. There is a pic of Willa while they were shooting 4x18. Where you can see a wound around her eyebrow

Edited March 7, 2016 by Velocity23

[AyChihuahua]

It will be Thea. There is a pic of Willa while they were shooting 4x18. Where you can see a wound around her eyebrow

She dies saving Thea, you mean? That would work for me.

[Velocity23]

Yeah lol. The way Tommy saved Laurel. Genesis shit going down.

[ComicFan777]

It will be Thea. There is a pic of Willa while they were shooting 4x18. Where you can see a wound around her eyebrow

 

If the him is Malcolm, I wouldn't think he would endanger Thea and then LL saves her from him.  If he wanted to get back at Oliver, Felicity would make the most sense for him to go after.

 

Edited March 7, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Velocity23]

Here is the pic

https://www.instagram.com/p/BB0yZf4TeMx/?taken-by=natewalton3

 

I dont think he goes after Thea. I think there is some kind of event similar to the Undertaking. And Thea will be in danger.

[wonderwall]

If the him is Malcolm, I wouldn't think he would endanger Thea and then LL saves her from him.  If he wanted to get back at Oliver, Felicity would make the most sense for him to go after.

 

 

Ugh I hope this isn't the case. That's exactly what happened in 409. The writers reuse storylines, but would they do that within the same season? 

[SonofaBiscuit]

If I was writing Laurel's death scene, it would involve Malcolm toppling a very heavy filing cabinet on her.  And then the drawer would fall open, and a picture of Tommy would float to the ground.  *fade to black*

[Ann Mack]

Damn poor Thea can't catch a break this season!

[AyChihuahua]

Ugh I hope this isn't the case. That's exactly what happened in 409. The writers reuse storylines, but would they do that within the same season? 

I'm sufficiently psyched about it seemingly happening that I don't care that much HOW it happens, except that I really really really don't want it to involve Felicity or Donna. I'd rather she die saving her downstairs neighbor's cat than die saving either Felicity or Donna. At least EBR is used to the hate, but Charlotte Ross I think actually reads her mentions, and I just don't want her to get hate.

[calliope1975]

I would prefer Laurel not die saving Felicity, but MG is a trolly troll who never met a backlash he understood or a story line he couldn't butcher, so I'm going to prepare for this scenario just in case. 

[dtissagirl]

If I was writing Laurel's death scene, it would involve Malcolm toppling a very heavy filing cabinet on her.  And then the drawer would fall open, and a picture of Tommy would float to the ground.  *fade to black*

I wanted a grandfather's clock to fall on her head in lieu of the anvil of ~the timeline righting itself~, but this is way better.

[ComicFan777]

I would have wanted Malcolm to somehow get LL killed simply because he blames her for Tommy's death. 

If LL died saving someone, I would have preferred Lance. 

 

Do you think the next few episodes will involve Felicity being in danger a lot?

4.16 Cupid driving limo away - I assume Felicity might be in the back

4.17 Brie Larvan and maybe the Sky Lord robots are back to kill Felicity

4.18 Felicity in danger and team comes and rescues her, team gets hurt, LL dies saving her (per IMDB theory)

 

I really hope that it is not Felicity that LL saves in the end because if this ends up being true, think of the backlash against Felicity...can't help but feel like a repeat of how Sara got killed for LL's arc all over again, but so much worse.

 

[Chasity]

Does anyone have the source link for that interview where SA talks about the show going back to doing what people loved before (or something like that)?  Thx.

http://www.tvinsider.com/article/75098/arrows-stephen-amell-opens-up-about-olivers-secret-and-his-favorite-episode/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=TVI

[bijoux]

The idea about Laurel dying while protecting Thea is actually a good one. It brings it around to Tommy and the Undertaking if Malcolm unleashes something similar in that he's not targeting his kid, but they still get caught in the crosshairs. It wipes Laurel's slate clean. Possibly, it even connects to Sara in a way, since Thea has occassionaly been presented as Laurel's pseudo younger sister. Laurel wasn't able to save Sara from dying either time, but now she would succeed in rescuing Thea.

[GirlvsTV]

I will be happily surprised if MG is able to resist the 'meta-ness' of having Laurel die for Felicity. It would feed into the exact same impulse that had Vertigo Sara lampshading all the issues people had with LL becoming BC in "Canaries." I think MG believes this approach is clever, but it really just makes them all look mean-spirited and petty.

I really hope it isn't true, but these writers are either completely tone-deaf about how their need for these Big Plot Moments effects the way these characters are viewed AFTER the big moment is over, or they just don't care.

They are either bad writers or really lazy ones. I can't figure out which

[tarotx]

Thea "killed" Sara so Laurel dying saving Thea does call back to Sara. Plus Thea is Tommy's sister so this time Laurel is the one to save. And it being in a kind of Undertaking situation feels right for the Character Laurel as well. So that probably means it's not going to go down like this....

[tangerine95]

I doubt this is true.I think she dies for Thea or Quentin since those are the relationships they built up more for her this season. Or maybe dies doing something for the whole team but i don't see her just saving Felicity who she barely spoke to all season. Though i wouldn't care if it was true tbh. However she dies is fine by me, I'm that happy she's gone I'll take it.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Yeah...I'm fairly certain that DR does not like KC very much (see Social Media thread).  I'd love to hear his thoughts after the Laurel death episode actually airs. 

Edited March 7, 2016 by SonofaBiscuit

[bijoux]

Thea "killed" Sara so Laurel dying saving Thea does call back to Sara. Plus Thea is Tommy's sister so this time Laurel is the one to save. And it being in a kind of Undertaking situation feels right for the Character Laurel as well. So that probably means it's not going to go down like this....

 

This is what has me discouraged. It's a logical meaningful scenario and it would be far from the first time the show went against my assumptions in a case like this.

[Velocity23]

Katie, Stephen, Willa and Paul filmed the majority of scenes  together during 4x18. There was a mayoral type thingy set where they were all present. We know only Stephen, David and Katie were on set when the Stanley Cup came on set. From what i can guess Emily screentime will be limited.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Emily only filmed for 4x18 on the first day and she was with SA and David (not sure about the others). The other days she was in LA so I find this "spoiler" weird, unless it's an indirect threat and the team goes against MM while she is trapped at PT or something. Katie filmed with Willa and JB the day Willa posted the pic with her face bruised and JB posted a video where you could see his bruised arm as well so I have always thought LL was going to die trying to save Thea.

That spoiler could be a speculation because we all know the rest of the important information as well with the exception of LL dying to save Felicity. We know LL will appear in the FBs in 19 that is an ep after her death and we know Donna will be back and she is Lance's girlfriend..it doesn't take a lot of imagination to think both she and Felicity could be there for Lance. I'm skeptical even if who knows really..

[wonderwall]

I don't want Felicity connected to Laurel's death at all. Now I'm expecting the worst... 
 

Dammit.

[AyChihuahua]

I don't want Felicity connected to Laurel's death at all. Now I'm expecting the worst... 

 

Dammit.

Huge grain of salt, seriously.

[jay741982]

Katie, Stephen, Willa and Paul filmed the majority of scenes  together during 4x18. There was a mayoral type thingy set where they were all present. We know only Stephen, David and Katie were on set when the Stanley Cup came on set. From what i can guess Emily screentime will be limited.

That could still imply Felicitys in danger and they have to save her . I really pray that Felicity isn't in danger 3 episodes in a row. It almost makes Felicity look like Lana from Smallville and I don't want her getting damseled cause she's the love of Oliver's life

[nksarmi]

Laurel and Thea have been fighting together a LOT this season.  Thea is typically with Laurel or Oliver on every mission.  Thea has been living with Laurel all season.  And with the fissure in Thea and Malcolm's relationship - if Laurel's death can in any way be placed on him - that would be the perfect vehicle to drive Thea into all out war on her father.  It really could work on so many levels. 

 

So yea, she'll probably die saving Felicity and have "olicity" figuratively kill "lauriver".

The only thing I want in regards to Felicity and Laurel's death would be something sweet over the coms if Laurel dies slowly while Oliver or Diggle is trying to rescue her.  ETA: Bonus points if Laurel's last words are - Tell Sara I love her.  I'm going to see Tommy now.

Edited March 7, 2016 by nksarmi

[Midnight Lullaby]

Also Felicity is in danger already in 4x17 and Oliver goes to PT to save her..so 2 episodes in a row?

[Velocity23]

*headdesk* I feel like logic doesnt apply anymore here.

[wonderwall]

Wait... I Feel like I'm missing something here. Who said that Felicity was going to be in danger in 417? I mean I know Brie is in it, but that doesn't mean Felicity's in danger...

[Angel12d]

Hmm. Laurel dying while trying to save Felicity is just about one of the worst things they could do. I really don't think they'd have it go down that way so I'm side-eyeing this tbh but because this is Arrow I'll prepare myself for it to happen, just in case.

 

I'm more inclined to believe it's one of the team that goes out into the field. Probably Thea. That is if she dies saving a specific someone at all. It could be that she's just in the wrong place at the wrong time while trying to stop Malcolm.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Angel12d