Spoiler Discussion Thread

[catrox14]

If they kill off Felicity, Laurel wouldn't really be a second choice anymore than Oliver would have been Laurel's 2nd choice after Tommy died. Death IMO changes the 2nd choice parts of things. They have other choices in partners but to meet comic canon, killing off their respective mates, makes it okay that they turn to each other eventually.

I want to bleach my own eyes and cut off my own fingers for typing this.

[JenMcSnark]

These are all good points.  Believe me, I hope I'm wrong.  But the possibility of being wrong isn't taking the growing distaste for this show out of my mouth. I haven't given up yet, but I'm becoming increasingly apathetic. 

[BkWurm1]

If they kill off Felicity, Laurel wouldn't really be a second choice anymore than Oliver would have been Laurel's 2nd choice after Tommy died. Death IMO changes the 2nd choice parts of things. They have other choices in partners but to meet comic canon, killing off their respective mates, makes it okay that they turn to each other eventually.

I want to bleach my own eyes and cut off my own fingers for typing this.

I don't know if I agree with that.  A tragically lost love ends up being frozen in time as the perfect partner.  Laurel would be worse than second choice.  She would be the "eh, she's here" choice.  In real life people do move on and find love but in real life they don't have gaggles of fans with the most perfect moments between you and the love of your life on constant rerun. 

 

The only way in fiction killing off a loved partner and eventually turning to someone else works IMO is if there was an obvious flaw that was sure to be magnified if only that past relationship would have had more time.  Say the passionate couple where the wife loved him, but constantly made him jump through hoops to prove his love while also constantly trying to make him jealous.  (stolen from Family Man, by Jayne Ann Krentz)  I just don't think they could pull it off. 

[pivot]

I've watched enough shows and fandoms over the years to see how this is going to play out. The EPs are crazy in love with Kate Cassidy and Laurel and are going to bring her back as the main female star of the show. I think they gave Olicity fans a bone earlier this season before bringing in Oliver 2.0 to become Felicity's love interest because they thought those fans would become Raylicity fans instead leaving Oliver to get back together with Laurel. Kate should have been cut from the show at the end of season 1 if the EPs actually gave a shit about telling a great story with talented actors. But, she hung on as a teacher's pet and her reward is this stupid BC storyline and getting to be the only female actress in the spotlight on Arrow now.

[BkWurm1]

The EPs are crazy in love with Kate Cassidy and Laurel and are going to bring her back as the main female star of the show

 

I think they are crazy in love with bringing a comic version of Black Canary to the screen and somehow convinced themselves that Sara wasn't good enough or that she wouldn't be acknowledged as the real version in the long term.  They may even intend to make KC the female "star" again but they've gone really far down the epic love path for Olicity, miles farther IMO what they did for Laurel and Oliver.  If they meant to make Raylicity more appealing than Olicity they would have sold it harder and undermined Oliver's feelings for Felicity more by making his interactions with Laurel more intimate and compelling. 

 

They haven't laid out any foundation for dropping Olicity and returning to Laurel and Oliver.  No special conversations.  No longing looks.  No regretful wishes.  All we have is comic history and soooo much fear.  They might screw this up - no one is safe after the HIMYM fiasco but at this point there hasn't been IMO any groundwork done to go back so I don't think the writing is on the wall or even scratched out in someone's dear diary. 

[blixie]

 

We knew Ray was coming on to be an Olicity obstacle - I just don't understand why people seem to be getting disheartened about it now - we've been discussing the possibility of this relationship since it was posted that Felicity would be getting a love interest. Since before we actually knew his name was Ray.

 Sorry I'm a few pages behind, but for me this is entirely about context, pacing, and storytelling. I love Ray, and was relishing Raylicity, because from the end of 3X01 Oliver has regressed to douche master general of I need to die alone bullshit. Felicity rejecting THAT? Good. 

 

Contextually though now Oliver has DIED, and while that may or many not feed into legitimate fears about being with Oliver, there are few ways to write this without looking contrived and making Felicity look like the asshole. Instead of Oliver working for it, Felicity is going to be all I'm just so sorry I was such a flibbertygibbet Olly can you forgive me?! The flavor of what made it appealing AT ALL has utterly changed for me. I mean I still enjoy Ray, but now it's kind of ruined, in ways I hadn't allowed the whole he's weirdo stalker to do quite yet.

 

There's no "fun" and "light" when you rebounding and using your weirdo stalker to avoid your real feelings for your true love. I mean my good FUCK what Guggenheim doesn't know about how to write romance.

 

For me the pacing he's so insistent on charting has BLOWN on all fronts this season, the pacing of who killed Sarah, the pacing of how bad of an ass is Rhas al Ghul, the pacing of Olicity, it's all janky and lame as hell thinking of the story purely in terms of plot points you have hit rather than emotional beats you have to portray.

 

I can't believe the only reason I might check out the next batch of episodes is for Ray's story and Ray's alone.

Edited January 12, 2015 by blixie

[jay741982]

I swear I remember that they said OG Team Arrow is going nowhere meaning Felicity Diggle Oliver. My god the thought of them killing off Felicity for some bullshit "She taught him how to truly love" crap so they can stick him with Laurel when he IMO loves Felicity more than he ever love Laurel would be so depressing and IMO showkilling. Who he is with in the end should be who he truly loves IMO. God they would anger SO many people if they did that. Since Felicity is in the comics I hope this is another reason for them not to kill her. Plus Oliver has NO chemistry with Laurel and is Smoldering with Felicity

[pootlus]

I'm getting Alias flashbacks. The protagonist secretly returns from believed dead by the world, only to pull her car up and watch the love of her life walk into a house with a new woman on his arm. If Arrow does anything like this I won't know whether to laugh, cry or throw my shoe through the TV.

 

Ah yes Alias, where they first paird off the male half of the OTP with someone else, then killed him off.  After which the outcry was so huge and the ratings tanked so much that they contrived some ridiculous scenario where no, he wasn't actually dead and...I dunno, I kind of bailed at the end of S3 because it'd got so awful.

 

This. For weeks, I've been searching for something, anything that would make me want to tune in for the rest of the season. 

 

But I don't care about Ray or The Atom. And I'm bitter about my favorite character being stranded on Ray Island when his storyline isn't integrated into anything having to do with Oliver or Team Arrow, and the producers confirmed today that it's not gonna be.

I'm ambivalent about Ray, but totally with you on Felicity being shoved off to one side. I want my Team Arrow back, please. 

I'm completely insulted by the Black Canary storyline, and 100% done with anything involving Laurel.

Yup. At this stage I'm so insulted by how Sara was treated that it's going to taint the rest of the show, even if it turns out (against all odds, according to all these spoilers) to be freakishly awesome.

 

Bottom line is, right now, there's not a single, solitary thing making excited about this show. Not one. Considering this was my absolute favorite show before Season 3 started, this is a pretty sad state of affairs.

Seriously. I keep hanging around for a reason to tune in again, and all I see is a big, unappealing wasteland of crappy plots and shitty characters.

[looptab]

So...yeah, Guggenheim's comment was definitely a defense against all the accusations he gets for pandering and all that. And I think that whoever wrote that piece put his own bias in it, thus influencing how everyone perceived that quote. The next tweet where Guggenheim clarifies the charting our course reads as an ulterior "we surely didn't give more Felicity, nor aren't writing Olicity because the fans are requesting it, since we start writing the season 5 months before it airs".

That said, I do understand the distrust in the writers and how everyone is wary of how the story could go; I am too more than slightly fearing a possible Back to Lauriver in future seasons. But, as quarks said - surely better than I ever could - I'm still hopeful that this season will turn for the better.

 

I mean, the thing they said over and over again before it even started was that season 3 would be sort of a turning point; that Ray Palmer would be a game-changer.

Now, I might be one of the only few people who doesn't mind Ray, and maybe I didn't totally like the way they have done it until now, but I still believe there is a purpose to all of this: you have to change the status quo, you have to shake things up a bit to have a substantial progression. If everything remained as it was, what could ever prompt Oliver to change his mindset from 3x01? But having Buckle and Atom and Arsenal and the Tooth Fairy helping him in his crusade will effectively give him the chance to take a breath and enjoy life a bit more. Ray Palmer will be a game-changer. He already has pulled Felicity out of the Foundry, causing Oliver to go in meltdown mode. Who knows how else he will affect Oliver in the future. I'm hopeful his storyline will be a good one. (And I think we will be seeing in the Arrow Cave; that quote about him going on a different track could be referred to just the next few episodes).

 

As for the state of Team Arrow, and specifically OG Team Arrow, again is a matter of shaking the status quo. We've had all of them kind of going their separate directions: Dig with his family, Felicity at PI, Oliver manpaining. But at the end of the day, when things get tough, who is there? The three of them. When in 309 Oliver was stomping his foot saying how Thea would never ever do a bad thing, Roy was nowhere to be seen, and Laurel was off lying to her parents. So I believe even this growing distance is part of a bigger, better than it looks right now- scheme.

 

Laurel is another story. I think I have to remind myself I'm watching a superhero show, because if I listen to my rational mind I can't find a reason for her suiting up after her sister and her friend both died because of that choice. But, then again, it's the most common motivation in this kind of story, so I'll shut up and hope I won't suffer too much watching. I'm convinced she will be the one pulling the team back in action, because after reading the description for 311 I can't imagine Diggle would be so desperate to call her and ask for her help, even if they were in dreadful circumstances. And it's possible she will be integrated in the Cave while Felicity is not there, as 304 kind of undermined the "Felicity is irreplaceable" status by having Dig track down Merlyn and Laurel finding out Nyssa's message. To that I say a big "NO, thanks". Go kick ass and leave us alone please.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with those saying that the road to get there matters, and I'm hopeful that won't be disappointing, but ultimately I'm still convinced that in the end it will all make sense!

 

- Sorry, this became a very long post :P

[pootlus]

If they kill off Felicity, Laurel wouldn't really be a second choice anymore than Oliver would have been Laurel's 2nd choice after Tommy died. Death IMO changes the 2nd choice parts of things. They have other choices in partners but to meet comic canon, killing off their respective mates, makes it okay that they turn to each other eventually.

I want to bleach my own eyes and cut off my own fingers for typing this.

 

You just planted in my head a sequence from the last ever episode of Arrow - where all the other heterosexual women on the planet between 18 and 50 get killed in an increasingly freakish series of accidents so that at the end Laurel can step up and say "You see Ollie? We are MEANT for each other!" over the corpses of 3.5 billion others.

[tv echo]

I'm on the pessimistic train with catrox14, but hope I'm wrong.  (What's that saying?  "Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.")  They may have restructured Oliver's love interest once, but they can always do it again.  Yes, Felicity was the one Oliver thought of when he was dying, but then again, Laurel was the one whose picture Oliver was staring at on the island in Season 1.  Yes, Oliver has changed, but arguably Laurel has too after going through her "crucible" - so they can get to know each other again as two 'new' people.  As for Laurel being second choice, isn't that what they did on Smallville?  Lana was infused with kryptonite so she couldn't ever be with Clark, and Clark ended up with Lois (who came off as his second choice).  The EPs giveth and the EPs taketh away.  

 

I'm seeing Felicity and Laurel slowly switch roles this season.  Felicity will be spending more time off with Ray in an independent storyline and will be the one having an angsty, uncomfortable relationship with Oliver.  Laurel will be the one getting along and fun-bantering with Oliver, as they partner up for crime-fighting with the rest of Team Arrow.  Maybe no romantic sparks this season, but watch out Season 4!

 

Here's how I visually picture it.  For the past two seasons, Laurel has been the square peg trying to fit into the round hole.  She's been the pointless character off on the sidelines that the EPs kept trying to integrate unsuccessfully into the main story.  Season 3 - they've given up trying to do that organically, so they're just taking a hammer and forcibly pounding her into the round hole, causing cracks around the edges, and those cracks are going to spread out to the rest of the characters and the show itself.

 

Incidentally, the EPs probably do think they're doing it organically - Oliver dies, so Laurel has to step up as the BC.  But think about it.  It would make sense for Laurel to work together with her DA boss, her police captain father and Team Arrow to figure out how best to utilize all of their resources to fight crime.  It would make sense for Laurel to talk to Ted Grant about organizing neighborhood watch groups all around the city.  It doesn't make sense that her immediate reaction is to don a mask and black leather outfit and go out to at night when she has less training than cops and other vigilantes.  And if she does it just to fool her father into believing Sara is still alive, then that makes the least sense of all.  

 

I think we always have to remember that the EPs of this show are, at their core, comic book guys.  Berlanti, who has the most experience with non-comic book shows, just has too many irons in the fire to devote much attention to Arrow.

Edited January 12, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

 Sorry I'm a few pages behind, but for me this is entirely about context, pacing, and storytelling. I love Ray, and was relishing Raylicity, because from the end of 3X01 Oliver has regressed to douche master general of I need to die alone bullshit. Felicity rejecting THAT? Good. 

 

My comment about Ray actually had zero to do with his viability as a love interest or even how they've portrayed him (I agree with what you wrote). That comment had more to do with the reaction to MG's interview ("we chart our own course," and the part of the article that said Olicity fans aren't going to be happy at the end of 3x12) - We knew it wasn't going to be an easy road for O/F, we knew there was a ship block in Ray coming up, we knew O/F weren't going to be together right away. But that interview comes out and the only new piece of information in it was that something-we don't even know what-is going to happen with Felicity (and we now know per MG that it has nothing to do with Ray) that's not going to be good news for her relationship with Oliver, and it spurred a mass freak-out about how Olicity fans are being jerked around, about how Lauriver 2.0 is now back in the cards and is Felicity going to be killed off for that to happen.

 

I absolutely know that the level of distrust fans have for the writers/producers of the show plays into knee-jerk reactions like these and I absolutely know the fear of investing your time into something that's just one giant tease. But I also know the fandom cycle of getting all riled up over one initial interview, then subsequent articles come out and clarify the initial comment or...whatever, then people calm down a bit (I am 100% guilty of this from time to time). Everyone processes things differently, and boards like this are for writing those things out and discussing them, but that comment was just sort of a, "hey - nothing's happening that we didn't already know was going to happen." 

[jay741982]

Im standing by my theory that Felicity will decide to slam the brakes on Olicity. She will decide she is too much a distraction to his quest after all probably even try to break his heart so to speak to get him to hate her. And by herself after she does it she will go by herself and Bawl her eyes out. But then MG probably didn't do that.

[Guest]

Personally, I think it was actually the tone of that interview, or at least the quotes and the way they were framed that caused that reaction. I'm really not bothered by it now (my usual reaction is to overreact and then be totally chill lol) but my first reaction was to be defensive because I don't trust these writers. We may have been told about Ray and ship blocks and whatever but IMO nothing has happened as it should. Sure, we had that wonderful Olicity date in 301 but the lead up to that was non-existent. We missed 5 months of build up. I wouldn't have minded Ray and Felicity having a relationship but then Ray was written like a creepy stalker with boundary issues and is like a weird Oliver-lite. Laurel becoming BC was expected but then they killed off her sister in the most brutal way possible to make that happen when there was so many other options. So I know nothing has happened that we didn't expect but it's the way it's happening which gives people trust issues. I just think they're continually missing the mark and that's why people worry about it.

MG has a rather black and white view of Olicity shippers IMO. I really think Felicity slams the brakes on Oliver in 3x12. So because they wouldn't be together MG thinks Olicity fans will hate him. But there is a big difference between  an unpopular outcome for organic reasons and an unpopular outcome for convoluted reasons. If Felicity decides against starting something with Oliver for real, in character reasons IMO most fans will be happy to soak in the angst bathtub. 

 

THIS.

 

I'm totally prepared for bumps in the Olicity road, as long as they're in character and not just forced because the plot dictates. But then they have written characters around plot before, rather than writing for character, so you do worry about these things.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Guest

[apinknightmare]

I'm totally prepared for bumps in the Olicity road, as long as they're in character and not just forced because the plot dictates. But then they have written characters around plot before, rather than writing for character, so you do worry about these things.

 

Yeah, the tone of that article wasn't so great, but that was the writer's interpretation of what MG said, so...I'm trying to not get worked up over stuff like that because it causes undue emotional stress, haha. And I guess maybe I'm in the minority here, but I actually think that of all the OOC-ness and writing to plot, they've by and large done a pretty good job at handling Oliver and Felicity's relationship. There have been a few head scratchers, but the relationship is generally being handled in a way that I think makes sense and is in character. Would I change some of it? Sure - I think the Oliver Queen vs. Arrow stuff is stupid thus far, because the only thing he's doing to not be Oliver Queen is be with Felicity, but maybe that'll make sense later? It's tough to say at this point. But everything as far as the two of them (and I'm talking just about how they relate to each other, not how Felicity is with Ray, etc.) is okay with me and about lives up to what I had expected for this show on this network. So, while a lot of the other things they've done on the show puzzle me, Oliver and Felicity themselves with regard to their relationship with each other? I don't really worry about that. 

Edited January 12, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

And I guess maybe I'm in the minority here, but I actually think that of all the OOC-ness and writing to plot, they've by and large done a pretty good job at handling Oliver and Felicity's relationship. There have been a few head scratchers, but the relationship is generally being handled in a way that I think makes sense and is in character. Would I change some of it? Sure - I think the Oliver Queen vs. Arrow stuff is stupid thus far, because the only thing he's doing to not be Oliver Queen is be with Felicity, but maybe that'll make sense later? It's tough to say at this point. But everything as far as the two of them (and I'm talking just about how they relate to each other, not how Felicity is with Ray, etc.) is okay with me and about lives up to what I had expected for this show on this network. So, while a lot of the other things they've done on the show puzzle me, Oliver and Felicity themselves with regard to their relationship with each other? I don't really worry about that. 

 

You know, I guess I'd agree with that. Aside from wishing we'd seen the build up to their date (I can guess how they grew closer, it's not like I think it came out of nowhere) I don't have many issues with how they've written Oliver and Felicity's relationship. I'm pleased with the progress. I thought their date was wonderful and highlighted everything I love about them. I understand why Felicity refuses to wait around and watch Oliver die. I even understand Oliver's need to keep dangling those damn maybes. So I think, for the most part, Olicity has been written ok. Yeah, I'd probably change some things too but nothing's perfect!

 

But as I said, I think it's hard not to have some concern when they've gotten so many other things wrong before. It's a challenge to not let that get to you sometimes, especially when you're invested in a story/characters and I am fully invested in Olicity's story now. And when they've kind of messed around with most of what I love about this show - Diggle, Original Team Arrow etc - I do worry they'll do the same thing to one of the last things keeping me watching. 

 

But, you know, I'm pretty chill about this all now. I think it's just a wait and see game now. Whatever happens, happens. We can't change it.

[apinknightmare]

But as I said, I think it's hard not to have some concern when they've gotten so many other things wrong before. It's a challenge to not let that get to you sometimes, especially when you're invested in a story/characters and I am fully invested in Olicity's story now. And when they've kind of messed around with most of what I love about this show - Diggle, Original Team Arrow etc - I do worry they'll do the same thing to one of the last things keeping me watching. 

 

Oh, most definitely. And honestly, this is my first season actually watching these beginning to middle episodes live. I didn't come in until nearly halfway through S2, so I was able to binge watch all of that, and I just try to think about what I would have thought about those episodes if I had watched them while they were airing instead of being able to breeze through one right after the other. What I saw in the beginning of last season wouldn't have ever led me to believe I'd get what I got in the end, so I'm trying to keep some modicum of faith that this is all (clumsy and plot-driven, yes) setup for something that I might enjoy more later in the season. 

[Guest]

Oh, most definitely. And honestly, this is my first season actually watching these beginning to middle episodes live. I didn't come in until nearly halfway through S2, so I was able to binge watch all of that, and I just try to think about what I would have thought about those episodes if I had watched them while they were airing instead of being able to breeze through one right after the other. What I saw in the beginning of last season wouldn't have ever led me to believe I'd get what I got in the end, so I'm trying to keep some modicum of faith that this is all (clumsy and plot-driven, yes) setup for something that I might enjoy more later in the season. 

 

 

I'm the same. Well, actually s3 is the first season I'm watching live at all. I binged s1 and s2 so this is all new to me too. Including reading interviews and getting spoilers. But I think that's exactly the problem. Everything that happened in s1 and s2 doesn't bother me because I had no knowledge of spoilers or anything the EP's might have said (and I'm now aware they gave some questionable interviews then too). But now I do so the experience is definitely different. I keep wanting to stay away from spoilers because I think it's detrimental to my enjoyment and makes me jump to conclusions but I can't seem to keep away! Lol. 

[Sunshine]

I'm seeing Felicity and Laurel slowly switch roles this season.  Felicity will be spending more time off with Ray in an independent storyline and will be the one having an angsty, uncomfortable relationship with Oliver.  Laurel will be the one getting along and fun-bantering with Oliver, as they partner up for crime-fighting with the rest of Team Arrow.  Maybe no romantic sparks this season, but watch out Season 4!

 

I think we always have to remember that the EPs of this show are, at their core, comic book guys.

 

Right after the S2 finale there was an interview with MG (Sorry I don't remember the actual source.)  In it he said they knew exactly where both Felicity and Laurel would "land"  at the end of S3 and they would be in different places.  Felicity was the teammate helping take down Slade and Laurel was the kidnapped (perceived) love interest.  Fast forward to S3 premiere and Felicity is  Oliver's crush object and Laurel is his "business" partner.  Since the premiere is usually a microcosm of the season my guess is that by the finale Oliver & Felicity will have worked their way back to each other and Arrow & Canary will be the main business partnership. (Last year MG responded to an Olicity tweet saying Olicity was a relationship in the show not the relationship - emphasis mine).

 

IIRC, Felicity Smoak in the comics helped the heroes for a while.  She also managed a software company.  In the new-52, Oliver Queen's romantic interest runs his non-profit.  If Oliver acquires a new company (I just can't fathom how he could take Palmer Technologies back), I could see Felicity running it for him and doing Team Arrow things from there as necessary.  Most of that would be S4 though.

 

How they get from here to there I don't know.  If they haven't increased BR's episode totals he has 10 more to appear in.  My guess is 3.10-3.20 excluding 3.14 which looks like this year's heavy flashback episode.  Oliver/Sara lasted from 3.13-3.20.  If they go romantic with Felicity & Ray I think 3.13 is the earliest it would actually begin or else it doesn't reflect well on Felicity.  3.10-3.12 would probably be showing them bonding as we haven't really seen that on screen. They do not at this point appear to be trying to make her look bad to enhance others.  It also makes me wonder if we will see much of Felicity in the Foundry or if her role on the team will be handled via phone as was established in 3.01, 3.03 & 3.07.

 

What concerns me is the talk about a potential A.T.O.M. spin off.  If it is not in the works by season's end do they move him to the Flash or does he remain on Arrow next season?  I think the answer to that question is what has the potential to derail an Olicity payoff in the finale.  His only scenes are with Felicity although I think he has some coming up with Lance.

 

 

[apinknightmare]

I'm the same. Well, actually s3 is the first season I'm watching live at all. I binged s1 and s2 so this is all new to me too. Including reading interviews and getting spoilers. But I think that's exactly the problem. Everything that happened in s1 and s2 doesn't bother me because I had no knowledge of spoilers or anything the EP's might have said (and I'm now aware they gave some questionable interviews then too). But now I do so the experience is definitely different. I keep wanting to stay away from spoilers because I think it's detrimental to my enjoyment and makes me jump to conclusions but I can't seem to keep away! Lol. 

 

If it makes you feel any better, I've been reading spoilers ever since I first started watching, even while I was binging, and nothing really ever seems to happen the way anyone thinks it will. Like, people thought Felicity might get kidnapped in the finale, but I don't recall anyone calling that it would be a ruse. When pictures of Laurel holding the bow from 2x22 were released, people got worried that she was going to become some kind of archery prodigy, but it was nothing. It's all part and parcel in killing time between eps and during breaks, but don't let spoilers and spoiler analysis deter you - we're almost never right, haha. We might guess about an outcome, but we're usually wrong about how the show gets there. Or we're right about a turn of events, but are wrong about where they go with it.

Edited January 12, 2015 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

I've been watching the show and reading/dissecting all the spoilers from the pilot, and I think wrt to this season in particular, this very thread has been pretty good at guessing plot points. The only thing that blindsided [some of] us was Sara's death, but everything else has been mostly accurately foretold here. Which I think is directly linked to the decline in the quality of the writing, since Berlanti and Kreisberg got distracted by faster happier dudes.

Edited January 12, 2015 by dancingnancy

[apinknightmare]

I've been watching the show and reading/dissecting all the spoilers from the pilot, and I think wrt to this season in particular, this very thread has been pretty good at guessing plot points. The only thing that blindsided [some of] us was Sara's death, but everything else has been mostly accurately foretold here. Which I think is directly linked to the decline in the quality of the writing, since Berlanti and Kreisberg got distracted by faster happier dudes.

 

People did correctly guess at Thea being brainwashed and the outcome of the duel (which was somewhat easier since they're ripping off the Ra's storyline from the Batman comics). My point isn't that they don't do predictable things, it's that sometimes those predictable things do lead to surprising outcomes, and that reading people's theories on what certain spoilers mean shouldn't deter someone from watching the show. Get deterred by the things that actually happen, not by what we think is going to happen. 

[dtissagirl]

People did correctly guess at Thea being brainwashed and the outcome of the duel (which was somewhat easier since they're ripping off the Ra's storyline from the Batman comics). My point isn't that they don't do predictable things, it's that sometimes those predictable things do lead to surprising outcomes, and that reading people's theories on what certain spoilers mean shouldn't deter someone from watching the show. Get deterred by the things that actually happen, not by what we think is going to happen. 

 

I agree, fandom does tend to overreact to, well, every spoiler. :) But I guess my point is S1 and S2 managed to surprise me [both positive and negatively] at several plot twists, even when I was spoiled to the gills. The predictability factor was and will always be there, because this is a tropey TV show by design. But this season so far hasn't managed to be surprising, either way, except for my being duped we were gonna get a lighter gentler Arrow, but that went out the dumpster along with Sara.

Edited January 12, 2015 by dancingnancy

[apinknightmare]

I agree, fandom does tend to overreact to, well, every spoiler. :) But I guess my point is S1 and S2 managed to surprise me [both positive and negatively] at several plot twists, even when I was spoiled to the gills. The predictability factor was and will always be there, because this is a tropey TV show by design. But this season so far hasn't managed to be surprising, either way, except for my being duped we were gonna get a lighter gentler Arrow, but that went out the dumpster along with Sara.

 

Yeah, I haven't been surprised in a good way so far, but I'm open to giving it time to play out. And I'll forever be bitter at myself for believing the "lighter, gentler" Arrow business. 

[blixie]

 

Yeah, the tone of that article wasn't so great, but that was the writer's interpretation of what MG said, so...I'm trying to not get worked up over stuff like that because it causes undue emotional stress, haha.

 

Eh I guess I'm not so flipped by this particular spoiler article as I am by what I feel has been a hot mess of a season so far. I'm worked up over shitty writing for the whole show, I'm annoyed at the crappy writing for Olicity (IMO of course) and this article just basically said: hey we are staying that shitty course, cause we ain't about to *pander*! Okay then, but I'm not watching it, I've already dropped Sleepy Hollow and I'm pretty darn close to dropping Arrow after only just giving it a real chance over the summer. I really didn't anticipate Guggenheim et al could fuck up so much what I was enjoying and actively excited about for season 3: Team Arrow, Sara as BC, Olicity, and the potential of Ray and Rah's. 

 

As someone said above it's not that I didn't know WHAT was going to happen it's that the how it has happened, and been executed so far has sucked so much, and actually sucked worse than I anticipated so yeah I am left with a vortex of excitement, anticipation, and good will for show I was enjoying and wicked excited about three months ago.

 

Also I feel like there has been a decent amount of criticism aimed precisely at this pacing, this course, that they don't want to alter. Fine, STAY THE COURSE FELICIA.

[Ariah]

Perhaps the audience should now demand things to happen with Laurel and BC, so that Guggenheim can say "no, we're not doing that with Laurel, as it would be like pandering to the fans! We have our own course!"

 

My suggestions:

- More time devoted to BC ("No, it's pandering!")

- Laurel as romantic interest of at least four superheroes ("No! It's pandering to the fans!!!")

- Laurel as a moral centerpiece of the series (... you get the gist...)

 

It's like with a spoiled child: "I bet you would never eat those veggies!" "I wouldn't? Watch me!!!"

[apinknightmare]

Eh I guess I'm not so flipped by this particular spoiler article as I am by what I feel has been a hot mess of a season so far. I'm worked up over shitty writing for the whole show, I'm annoyed at the crappy writing for Olicity (IMO of course) and this article just basically said: hey we are staying that shitty course, cause we ain't about to *pander*! Okay then, but I'm not watching it, I've already dropped Sleepy Hollow and I'm pretty darn close to dropping Arrow after only just giving it a real chance over the summer. I really didn't anticipate Guggenheim et al could fuck up so much what I was enjoying and actively excited about for season 3: Team Arrow, Sara as BC, Olicity, and the potential of Ray and Rah's. 

 

But that particular article did cause a lot of people to flip, which then led to more speculation about Lauriver 2.0 and killing off Felicity - which is why I made my initial comment. Like I wrote above, if you're frustrated by what's already happened and you've lost your enthusiasm for the show, then yeah, by all means drop it. I just don't see the point in getting upset over things that haven't happened yet, because they might not ever happen (and this is not directed at you, just the general flurry of comments on here yesterday after that article was released). 

Also, I guess I must've taken MG's comment about charting their own course completely differently, because I thought it was more of their defense against the notion that the Oliver/Felicity relationship is fan pandering - that it was something they were planning on doing, and that a lot of what's happening isn't the result of shipper twitter campaigns since they plan half of the season out before anyone even sees a single episode. I didn't think it was some spiteful, 'you can't convince us to change what you don't like, we do what we want!' kind of comment. He and the other EPs have said some similar stuff about that (giving us the show we "need," not the show we "want" and whatever), but I don't think this is it.

[Pyramid]

Regarding the latest in the spoiler thread. I am fucking sick to death of them burying things in the comics. I'm watching a tv show, they're writing a tv show. It's not an expensive advert for their comics.

[Morrigan2575]

Also, I guess I must've taken MG's comment about charting their own course completely differently, because I thought it was more of their defense against the notion that the Oliver/Felicity relationship is fan pandering - that it was something they were planning on doing, and that a lot of what's happening isn't the result of shipper twitter campaigns since they plan half of the season out before anyone even sees a single episode. I didn't think it was some spiteful, 'you can't convince us to change what you don't like, we do what we want!' kind of comment. He and the other EPs have said some similar stuff about that (giving us the show we "need," not the show we "want" and whatever), but I don't think this is it.

 

I've said it like 3 times already but I agree that's exactly what he was saying.  If you read the question it's a twisted version of "admit it, you just put Olicity together because of the vocal shippers".  MGs answer was no, we chart our own course...we are doing what we want to do.  Which is what they've said for awhile now, it's always the same answer, there was no original plan, Olicity grew out of the SA/EBR chemistry, we're developing the story we want to tell, not sticking to comics or pandering to fans.

[Carrie Ann]

I really didn't anticipate Guggenheim et al could fuck up so much what I was enjoying and actively excited about for season 3: Team Arrow, Sara as BC, Olicity, and the potential of Ray and Ra's.

 

blixie, you mentioned dropping Sleepy Hollow in your comment, and I'm going to respond in the Bitterness thread.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[catrox14]

I've said it like 3 times already but I agree that's exactly what he was saying.  If you read the question it's a twisted version of "admit it, you just put Olicity together because of the vocal shippers".  MGs answer was no, we chart our own course...we are doing what we want to do.  Which is what they've said for awhile now, it's always the same answer, there was no original plan, Olicity grew out of the SA/EBR chemistry, we're developing the story we want to tell, not sticking to comics or pandering to fans.

They have charted their own course in varying from the comics to one degree or another yet IMO they are pushing the comics canon with Laurel becoming Black Canary and the plan apparently all along was to make Laurel into BC despite the introduction of Sara as Black Canary. And in spite of Laurel being arguably the most unpopular and unwelcome character on the show. And to get Laurel there after not doing it well in the first place they killed off Sara. They stuck with Roy becoming Arsenal and they have a Merlyn as the Dark Archer and a villain. Strong indications are that Thea will become Mia/Speedy.

They started with Vertigo as a young drug dealer but looped back to Count Vertigo as older like the comics. They stuck with Slade Wilson being a big bad with an eyepatch even if they altered his reasons for doing what he did, and hopped him up on Mirakuru.

To me it's not really kneejerking to be concerned that they will loop back to Lauriver 2.0 given the loopbacks already.

It might not be this season but I can see it for next season and since they killed off Sara to advance Laurel's mission, well killing off Felicity seems like it's not totally out of the realm of possibility. Even if Felicity were paired off with Ray or Barry, she's still alive in the universe and would be a "threat" to Lauriver if that's the end game. Killing her off removes that threat.

[quarks]

The EPs are crazy in love with Kate Cassidy and Laurel and are going to bring her back as the main female star of the show.

 

 

I don't see this.

 

They do have one reason to bring Laurel/Katie Cassidy back as the main star of the show - her salary. According to most reports, she's paid the same as Amell, and as long as her name appears in the credits, she gets paid, whether or not she actually films that episode. Depending upon what Routh and Barrowman are getting paid, that makes her one of the highest paid actors on the show, possibly tied for highest.  

 

About every other interview for this show, and every third interview for Flash, mentions the damn budget. It's brought up almost as often as "epic."  Flash already did a bottle show, and one almost has to be coming up for Arrow. The shows are barely bothering to hide their shared sets, and budget is driving a significant part of the plot (largely, Felicity, who last season was telling us that she'd learned she could be more than an IT girl, with that "more" meaning saving people with Team Arrow, deciding this season that her "more" meant "going back to the office job so we can keep using that expensive QC set with its trick windows.")  I have to assume this means that budget is very, very much on everyone's minds, especially given the huge layoffs Warner Bros had back in November. 

 

So that's an actual, practical reason to bring Laurel back into focus that has nothing to do with liking/disliking the actress, the character, or Black Canary. And yet.  In the nine episodes so far, Laurel has had more than ten minutes of screentime in only three of them. Her role was extremely limited in the most hyped episode of the season - the Flash crossover. If they really wanted to make Laurel the main female star of the show again, that was their chance - give Laurel some funny lines and, as I argued elsewhere, let her participate in the great Disarm the Bombs bit so that she would finally have an unquestioned heroic moment. They didn't do this. Very unusually for this show, which likes to suggest that people can get hit on the head and still maintain perfect makeup/looks, they even had Katie Cassidy going around for a couple of episodes with a black eye, instead of focusing on her looks.  And, after allowing Oliver, Sara and even Roy in his first outing on screen as a vigilante to easily take down a couple of goons (season one) and stop an earthquake machine (season two) this show has gone out of its way to make Laurel incompetent in her first vigilante outing.  Roy took out the various guys threatening Thea - even though he didn't have a weapon.  Laurel ended up in the hospital, even though she had (sigh) a baseball bat.  Even Thea on her first outing managed to stop the guys attacking Roy with just a bottle, and this season has been able to escape the Arrow.  And in Laurel's second outing as a vigilante? She got kidnapped. Again.

 

This is not suggesting a show that loves Laurel or wants Laurel; it's a show going out of its way to say that Laurel is incompetent. I even think that's one reason why viewers are protesting this storyline - if Lyla was suiting up, I think we'd be fine, because Lyla is competent. Thea's rather rapid "Hi I am now a ninja" is also mostly passing without comment, not because it's realistic to turn into a ninja in five months, but because although she's certainly made some huge mistakes, we've also seen her shoot her father without hesitation and hit him, save Roy with a well flung bottle, and successfully run a nightclub without needing to blackmail anyone for the position. Ray is unquestionably competent - sure, he needed Felicity's help with getting some info, but he also took over three businesses just in the episodes we've seen, and immediately started getting the stock price of QC/Palmer Tech to go up, so no one is saying he's not qualified to do this. We've never seen the training of any of the villains on this show, and yet, Cupid aside, no one is asking "Hey, how did Komodo get good enough to do motorcycle jousting."  It's not so much the training that's needed, but the foundation of competency. The show hasn't bothered to give that to Laurel, which doesn't suggest any particular love for the character. If you can make us believe that the new Count Vertigo just happens to have access to rocket launchers, you can make us believe that Laurel is competent. Instead, the show has had her beaten up, kidnapped, and unable to hide a supposedly all important secret from Thea, of all people.

 

Going forward, we have:

 

1. Kriesberg telling us we have a little Laurel trilogy which may actually be four episodes which Laurel fans will love. 

 

2. Guggenheim telling us that these three or four Laurel trilogy episodes don't actually focus on Laurel, and he has no idea why anyone would think that.

 

3. A few pictures of Laurel in costume, released after some internet leaks.

 

4. Some Canadagraph pictures apparently showing Oliver, Malcolm and Nyssa, but not Laurel, and James Banford telling us that someone in a picture who might be Laurel isn't Laurel.

 

5. Some pictures of Laurel in the upcoming huge flashback episodes.

 

6. Episode descriptions that mention everyone, including Laurel.

 

7. Some not particularly revealing promos that give us about three seconds of Laurel, and no dialogue - about the same amount of time given to the character I think is Brick, and in the most recent promo, less time than what's given to Oliver's dead or mostly dead body.

 

8. One very poorly thought out panel where Katie Cassidy was the only woman, and which featured only two people of color in a group of 15, where the not very good explanation was that it didn't occur to them to bring along more of the women/minority characters, even though Jesse L. Martin is arguably one of the best known, most popular members of both casts. I'm not going to try to defend that panel.  But I will note that the female lead of Flash, who is a popular character on a better rated show, wasn't there either (and you can't tell me fans/critics wouldn't have been happy to see Candace Patton), so the idea doesn't seem to have been focusing on the female leads, perceived or not, of either show.

 

9. An equally poorly thought out poster about that panel. 

 

10. Spoilers indicating that other characters will be featured on the show, and Berlanti's comment that they are still discussing a potential Atom spinoff which presumably suggests that the show will continue to feature Ray in his own little storyline so he can get spun off.

 

What this tells me is no surprise: Laurel is going to be on the show. We knew that. And in case it wasn't clear, I'm not particularly optimistic about her upcoming storyline. (Not because of the spoilers, but because of her storyline so far, which does not make me optimistic.)  But I don't think it indicates that Laurel is coming back into the lead role. She might - as I said, I can see the budget incentive for this. And she's suiting up, and I'll fully agree that the producers seem to really like the costumed characters.  But the upcoming discussion has promised new "superheroes" in the plural, not just Laurel. The spoilers/info are about several characters, not just Laurel.  So yeah, is she going to be on the show? Sure.  The co-lead, back with Oliver? Maybe.  I'm not going to rule it out. I just don't think that the signs are pointing in that direction. 

[Chaser]

If they are touching on every part of a heroes journey in that 3/4 episode arc and if 10 really is more about Team Arrow and 12 is more about Malcolm (I feel like that was a spoiler), that really just leaves ep. 11 (I read this was Laurel heavy) and ep. 13 (Canaries/Sara coming back) about Laurel. Plus you have the Ray arc. That isn't a lot of time for developement so I think they may be jumping the milestones like hurtles. One big dramatic scene per episode, but not much inbetween.

 

Does Nyssa come back before ep.15? KC mentions Laurel going to Nyssa for evidence on her father about Sara. For some reason, the wording made is sound like Laurel hadn't told Quentin yet.

[Velocity23]

 

http://www.channelguidemagblog.com/index.php/2015/01/11/arrows-oliver-queen-really-dead-stephen-amell-gives-insights/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=arrows-oliver-queen-really-dead-stephen-amell-gives-insights

Edited January 12, 2015 by Velocity23

[Carrie Ann]

Sweet, no Lazarus Pit for Oliver. Doesn't mean another character won't come back that way, and I thought SA's comments about Ep 14 made it feel even more likely that that's going to happen, though probably not to the character I'd prefer.

[Guest]

How on earth are they going to explain his survival without the Lazarus Pit?! I'm glad they're not bringing that into the show (although, they still could and are just trying to throw everyone off tbh) but dude was stabbed twice and thrown off a cliff. SORCERY! 

[Chaser]

SA really likes the flashback heavy episodes. I think he has a thing for that wig.

[apinknightmare]

How on earth are they going to explain his survival without the Lazarus Pit?! I'm glad they're not bringing that into the show (although, they still could and are just trying to throw everyone off tbh) but dude was stabbed twice and thrown off a cliff. SORCERY! 

 

He was stabbed through the lung, was kicked off of what seemed to be a pretty short cliff, then laid shirtless on the snow for a bit to staunch the bleeding. Some magical island herbs from his cute lil rucksack, a little TLC, and voila, baby. He's back!

[Guest]

He was stabbed through the lung, was kicked off of what seemed to be a pretty short cliff, then laid shirtless on the snow for a bit to staunch the bleeding. Some magical island herbs from his cute lil rucksack, a little TLC, and voila, baby. He's back!

 

WITCHCRAFT! 

[Morrigan2575]

I think I missed it, where is the stuff about no lazarus pits?

[Chaser]

Its in the above link that Velocity23 posted

[Starfish35]

It's here:

While we can confirm that Amell is definitely back, we’re not 100 percent at what capacity. When we asked him what it would have taken for Oliver to survive, he told us: “We just saw him fall. We’ve seen Oliver survive, so whether he went straight off the cliff, whether something broke his fall, whether he hit the ground, whether there’s — we have mystical herbs on the show that have healing powers. We’ve seen the Lazarus Pit, although that’s not something that’s going to be used for Oliver. I hope he survives. I like playing him.”

Does anyone have a link for where they said Katana would be appearing in the back half if the season? I saw that, but I don't know where now.

[doesntworkonwood]

Okay... Super weird theory BUT...

 

What if the show does an Orphan Black and we find out the Oliver's got a long lost twin brother, which means his heart is on the other side of chest, so Ra's missed his heart, which is how he survived and 'The Return' is the return of the long lost twin brother?

 

I kid, I kid, but SA said we've seen the lazarus pit before, and I really don't recall that? Was it alluded to with Malcolm maybe? Is that what he meant? 

[apinknightmare]

Does anyone have a link for where they said Katana would be appearing in the back half if the season? I saw that, but I don't know where now.

 

I haven't seen anything about her returning, but GBerlanti said something (I think it was in his "apology" about the makeup of the TCA panel) that Tatsu would be becoming Katana by the end of the season. 

I kid, I kid, but SA said we've seen the lazarus pit before, and I really don't recall that? Was it alluded to with Malcolm maybe? Is that what he meant? 

 

I think it was supposed to be that bath we see Ra's in when Nyssa goes to Nanda Parbat at the end of "The Magician."

Edited January 12, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

 

I kid, I kid, but SA said we've seen the lazarus pit before, and I really don't recall that? Was it alluded to with Malcolm maybe? Is that what he meant? 

 

I think it was alluded to with Malcolm but I'm pretty sure when we first saw Ra's al Ghul he was climbing out of some kind of pit/bath which could be what SA means, I guess. I don't know enough about the Lazarus Pit to know for sure tbh. Just a guess.

[statsgirl]

 

“Both Laurel and Sarah were elements of his past. Obviously Sara and Oliver tried to rekindle things but both of those relationships rely heavily on the type of person he was before he left, as he has become more accepting, less introverted, less damaged by what happened to him the five years that he was away. The guiding principle in that transformation was Felicity

Bless SA, he's still supporting Olicity.

 

Kresiburg at TV Line makes me feel somewhat better.

 

 

What if the show does an Orphan Black and we find out the Oliver's got a long lost twin brother, which means his heart is on the other side of chest, so Ra's missed his heart, which is how he survived and 'The Return' is the return of the long lost twin brother?

If his heart is on the other side of his chest, then wouldn't he be okay himself without the need for a long lost twin?

 

 

They do have one reason to bring Laurel/Katie Cassidy back as the main star of the show - her salary. According to most reports, she's paid the same as Amell, and as long as her name appears in the credits, she gets paid, whether or not she actually films that episode. Depending upon what Routh and Barrowman are getting paid, that makes her one of the highest paid actors on the show, possibly tied for highest.  

Assuming that KC's contract was for 3 seasons and not 6 like SAs, I wonder what they will do with her next season.  Given how unpopular Laurel is, will they resign her at the same salary, which means they would need to use her as much?  Or will they take some of her money and use it on actors like Brandon Routh.

Edited January 12, 2015 by statsgirl

[Starfish35]

I haven't seen anything about her returning, but GBerlanti said something (I think it was in his "apology" about the makeup of the TCA panel) that Tatsu would be becoming Katana by the end of the season.

Thanks - I think that's what I was thinking about.

[doesntworkonwood]

If his heart is on the other side of his chest, then wouldn't he be okay himself without the need for a long lost twin?

 

I thought that for it to occur, you needed mirror image twins (like they had in Orphan Black), but I just googled it and you're right, no twin needed! 

[SonofaBiscuit]

From the Kreisberg TVLine stuff in the Spoiler thread, I think that people are correct and Felicity will be shutting Oliver down at the end of episode 12.  He'll spend all of his recovery thinking about her, and maybe he'll come back wanting to be with her, but she'll say no because of the way his latest "death" has shaken her.  I'll be very happy if she stays far far away from a romantic relationship with Ray because I want to see good Olicity moments, and it might look kind of bad if Oliver is making moves on her while she's with Crazy Eyes.

[Morrigan2575]

It's here:

Does anyone have a link for where they said Katana would be appearing in the back half if the season? I saw that, but I don't know where now.

I believe it was from Berlanti in The Wrap interview where he talked about screwing up the panel.  He mentioned that they had the actress and she would be appearing as Katana before the end of S3.

 

http://www.thewrap.com/arrow-the-flash-ep-greg-berlanti-apologizes-for-lack-of-women-on-tca-panel

 

“I wasn’t in charge of invitations for this panel,” Kreisberg joked. “We’re blessed, we have so many great female superheroes and villains. We have Caity Lotz, the original Canary, Katrina Law [as Nyssa], we have Rila Fukushima who plays Tatsu, who will become Katana before the end of the season.”

 

I know Nyssa is back in 315 but do we have any confirmation of KL filming earlier like 310-314?  I'm trying to figure out how long Laurel will be running around as Canary and lying to Lance about Sara being dead, given KC's quote from yesterday.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Morrigan2575