Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Danny Franks]

 

-Oliver tells Barry that it'll never work between him and Iris, because there is no fun in being a depressed, brooding, lonely hero alone.

 

Does he also tell him, 'you fucking weirdo. That girl is your sort-of-sister, what's wrong with you? And telling her, as Barry, that you're not going to see her for a while, then creeping on her in your superhero get up is really not cool.'

[Guest]

Wow. 3-4 episodes of a Laurel arc one after the other is a risky move. While I appreciate that Laurel won't automatically become the best BC to ever BC, I'm with @apinknightmare. I don't particularly want to see her struggle all the time. I do understand that they want to keep comic fans happy but the way her story is unfolding is not rewarding or watchable to me right now. Meh.

 

I wonder if Laurel will continue to struggle all season and then at some point in s4 she'll become a meta-human, get her strength and canary cry and then BAM! BC. It seems they're leaning more towards bringing meta-humans on the show so I can see that happening. 

[Morrigan2575]

I wonder if Laurel will continue to struggle all season and then at some point in s4 she'll become a meta-human, get her strength and canary cry and then BAM! BC. It seems they're leaning more towards bringing meta-humans on the show so I can see that happening.

What strengh? Comics Black Canary doesn't have super strengh. She's a highly trained marial artis, someone who began training when she was 18, seeking out different master's to train her to fight. Post-52 Dinah Drake started earlier, she was taken in by her Sensei when she was a tween runaway and trained for years with him before joining Team 7 and picking up even more fighting skills.

What is he talking about? What Comic-Con argument?

who would win in a fight? Arrow or Flash? Apparently there will be a discussion in 108 between Diggle, Felicity, Cisco and Caitlin. Edited November 23, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[looptab]

Oh ok! Thanks I had completely misunderstood that sentence :D

[Guest]

What strengh? Comics Black Canary doesn't have super strengh. She's a highly trained marial artis, someone who began training when she was 18, seeking out different master's to train her to fight. Post-52 Dinah Drake started earlier, she was taken in by her Sensei when she was a tween runaway and trained for years with him before joining Team 7 and picking up even more fighting skills.

 

Ok, strength was the wrong word. All I'm saying is the way they're writing her journey to BC I wouldn't be surprised if they make her a meta-human to do it because I don't see how she's going to be a greater BC than Sara. 

[Chaser]

IIRC SA said the payoff for the Black Canary was Ep13. Payoff is the climax of the narrative. I take that to mean Laurel is going to fully become the Black Canary in that episode. Probably with a Big Damn Hero moment. Maybe she swoops in to save Oliver.

 

I understand doing a big two-parter to name a hero. If they had set the pieces in place from S1 then during a big two parter for Laurel to suit up makes sense. They kicked off her journey officially in the first few episodes of this season. Then she slide back in Ep5, wasn't in Ep7, won't be in much at all of Ep8 and it sounds like Ep9 is about family drama. According to the EPs, its because she is getting ready to suit up for her big Black Canary Arc. But you don't get a character ready off screen, the audience needs to see it. 

[blixie]

This is why I wanted her to get the Canary Cry, I have no interest in spending that much story time on Laurel and her "journey".  Time they should have been spending since S1 E1. The idea that watching Laurel be incompetent for 3 episodes before she magically locks into place in E13, I just don't see what purpose she serves. Wearing an outfit and mask and being a Big Damn Hero,w/o beating people up, what skill exactly have you shown us Laurel has that needs a mask, black leather, and 325 buckles? Like in what possible way, using what possible skill is she going to Hero? I don't see how fans of Laurel or fans of Katie will enjoy watching this any more than people who don't give a damn about Laurel and Katie will.

[Starfish35]

It does kind of sound like they're leading up to her getting the Canary Cry after all. Which is honestly something I thought would never happen on this show, even now. :/

[BumpSetSpike]

 

 

Katie Cassidy’s Laurel Lance doesn’t appear much in the upcoming Flash/Arrow crossover – although she does have a brief moment in the Arrow chapter, “The Brave and the Bold.” However, there is a plan for her character, as Executive Producer Andrew Kreisberg related to The Hollywood Reporter last night. In their report, the title of the thirteenth episode of Season 3 is also revealed.

“She’s not as present in these episodes, but that is because we’ve been building up to her appearance as the Black Canary,” Kreisberg said. “We sort of said that Sara was the Canary, but Laurel is the Black Canary. Episodes 10, 11 and 12 are a three-part trilogy that are about her. And episode 13 I think I can spoil, is called ‘Canaries.’ For fans of Laurel and for fans of Katie [Cassidy], they’re going to get more than their fill after the winter break.”

 

My heart breaks... SA is gone for a few episodes, and this is what we get in its place.  No thank you.

Edited November 23, 2014 by BumpSetSpike

[NumberCruncher]

NGL...if it happens, I may not be able to control a fit of giggles everytime they use the canary cry. I just don't know how they make that not come off as utterly ridiculous in a live action TV show. I'm a horrible fan.

[patchwork]

I don't think they'll turn her meta-human, although that would open up a lot of stories that would be completely separate from TA now I think about it, I'm leaning towards the idea that she gets a version of Sara's device. Maybe it's been a side project of Felicity's, not with the intention of giving it to Laurel but plot happens and she gives it to her as recognition of the new Canary. 

 

...yeah I hate that idea. 

[Ariah]

...So Laurel is not in s3e08 much because she's... making her costume? (I just got a vision of Michelle Pfeiffer in Batman 2, stiching up her costume from a vinyl coat...)

 

Anyhow, the Flash vs Arrow crossover, according to the twitter chatter, seems fine. Not too heavy on the Olicity front (good) and decent in action (another good).

[Artsda]

At least they're promoting exactly which episodes to avoid.

[Danny Franks]

“She’s not as present in these episodes, but that is because we’ve been building up to her appearance as the Black Canary,” Kreisberg said. “We sort of said that Sara was the Canary, but Laurel is the Black Canary. Episodes 10, 11 and 12 are a three-part trilogy that are about her. And episode 13 I think I can spoil, is called ‘Canaries.’ For fans of Laurel and for fans of Katie [Cassidy], they’re going to get more than their fill after the winter break.

 

Do they really not see why this is a problem? Adding that proviso to every single thing they say about Laurel and Cassidy has become a necessity because they know a lot of people really do not want to see anything of her.

 

Also, way to promote your episodes after the hiatus, you dopes. You know that she's about as popular as a fart in a spacesuit, and yet you openly tell the fanbase that three episodes in a row are all about her? Good luck with that one, guys.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Danny Franks

[Ariah]

Also, way to promote your episodes after the hiatus, you dopes. You know that she's about as popular as a fart in a spacesuit, and yet you openly tell the fanbase that three episodes in a row are all about her? Good luck with that one, guys.

 

The problem for me is not that those 3 episodes are all about her, but that they are also sans Oliver. Or sans present time Oliver.

Good that Mentalist is back since 30 November, i'll have something to comfort me.

[pootlus]

Do they really not see why this is a problem? Adding that proviso to every single thing they say about Laurel and Cassidy has become a necessity because they know a lot of people really do not want to see anything of her.

 

Also, way to promote your episodes after the hiatus, you dopes. You know that she's about as popular as a fart in a spacesuit, and yet you openly tell the fanbase that three episodes in a row are all about her? Good luck with that one, guys.

 

Thank you for summing up so succinctly my views on the subject.

 

I mean, seriously, show? Get rid of Oliver for three episodes and feature Laurel? I know Amell needs a break but couldn't we focus on, y'know, the interesting characters who aren't like nails on a blackboard?

 

Although I am glad to hear that Laurel will be a crap fighter (tell me something I don't know), because I've been rolling my eyes that someone who's done four weeks of boxing (boxing, mind, not martial arts) will be able to last more than three seconds against someone who's been doing martial arts for years.

 

Still, no desire to see Buckle Canary at all.  Call me back to the show when we get some Team Arrow focus and Laurel's either gone or back to being thirty seconds of irrelevant.  Until then, bleah (although I'm tempted by the crossovers).

[statsgirl]

If Stephen Amell needed a break, I think they should have thrown in a Suicide Squad episode instead of InstaCanary, all the time.

 

I was thinking that John Campea won't give up on the show but 3 episodes of Laurel donning the buckle suit instead of Diggle/Felicity centric episodes as he asked for  may just break him. Maybe that's what SA told him after the show and why he sent out the tweet that he quitting it.

This upcoming BC trilogy or quartet of episodes sounds about as much fun as getting a root canal.  Honestly, I don't think the ratings will fall that much - esp. not the first episode in January - because other viewers either don't read spoilers and might be expecting Oliver to return right away (to resolve the cliffhanger) or might be satisfied watching any costumed chick kicking ass.  The EPs are probably counting on the latter.  However, I'd bet that they've probably mixed in with those BC episodes some 'great' B scenes involving Felicity, Diggle and/or Thea (which will be heavily promoted) to get fans watching.

 

It's going to be a critical test period - If the ratings drop to the basement, then Laurel may be dropped from the show.  if the ratings are decent, then we're probably stuck with Laurel as the BC for at least another season.  If the ratings are great, then she may get spun off into a BC or BOP show, which would get her off Arrow.  

 

Add me to the group that thinks it's a risky (aka stupid) move to make those three Oliver-missing episodes about Laurel with little Diggle and Felicity.

 

Also, aren't 312 and 313 sweeps episodes?  I think people will tune back in when they hear that Oliver is back but it's still risky given that people don't seem to be as in love with this show as they were at the end of s2.

 

It does seem like a 'no win' situation with Laurel.  If she's a great Black Canary, people will resent that it happened so fast; if she's a lousy Canary then her fans will be upset if she decides to stop being BC, and so will the comic book fans who are convinced that she has to become the Black Canary because she's called Dinah Laurel Lance.

 

I think the only two ways to get out of it is have Laurel decide she's not cut out to be a vigilante (I love the idea of her trying to be mayor because that's a character she could grow into) and let Sin take the job, or move to Coastal City to train for a few more years until the show goes off the air.

 

 

I disagree that she lacks a 'killer instinct.' She showed no remorse when she killed that one guy (in self defense granted), she tried to shot Komodo after knowing he didn't kill Sara and was looking to put a hit out on Malcolm in 3x04. I would actually say she has more of a killer instinct than Sara did.

Among all the reason why Laurel shouldn't be the BC, this is the one that is the biggest for me.  She's all about the killer instinct, the judgement of other people who don't live up to her standards.  A good vigilante should be about helping those who can't help themselves, not feeding her ego by punishing others.

 

They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Sara never should've died to onset Laurel's journey. That's where their problem started. Now they're having to do things to both speed up and off set Laurel's journey to please both sets that are for and against it. But now they have a nothing arc that EVERYONE will complain about so really, ship Laurel off somewhere else to complete her journey and everyone's happy.

On the other hand, if KC's contract really is up at the end of this season, this may justify moving her off her leading lady status.

[BumpSetSpike]

 

If Stephen Amell needed a break, I think they should have thrown in a Suicide Squad episode instead of InstaCanary, all the time.

 

I can't find anywhere that it says he NEEDED a break.  He just seems to be getting one.

[Starfish35]

Call me back to the show when we get some Team Arrow focus and Laurel's either gone or back to being thirty seconds of irrelevant. Until then, bleah (although I'm tempted by the crossovers).

I think I will be watching the crossovers now. I knew I'd be watching the Flash portion, but if Laurel really is only minimally in the Arrow portion, I'll probably watch that one also. 309 remains to be seen, but if that one is also Laurel-lite due to the upcoming Laurel-heavy episodes after the break, it may be added to the list.

I can't believe I've come to deciding on whether I watch episodes based on how much a certain character is in them or not. :(

Edited November 23, 2014 by Starfish35

[KirkB]

We sort of said that Sara was the Canary, but Laurel is the Black Canary. Episodes 10, 11 and 12 are a three-part trilogy that are about her.

 

Okay, I know I'm picking nits here, but a three part trilogy? As opposed to what?

 

Other than that I have no real desire to discuss what will likely be the least interesting episodes of this series to date.

[ban1o]

I doubt episodes 10-13 will be completely Laurel focused. Maybe 13 will be Laurel centric since it's called "Canaries" but I think they just mean laurel will get more character development in those episodes then she will in the episodes until the mid season finale. I'm sure there will be a lot of focus on Diggle/Felicity/Roy/Thea/Malcolm as well.

Edited November 23, 2014 by ban1o

[pootlus]

Okay, I know I'm picking nits here, but a three part trilogy? As opposed to what?

 

Well Douglas Adams had a trilogy in five parts, so I guess clarification is good!

 

That said with this lot I very much doubt it was a sly reference to Hitchhiker's.

 

I must say I am looking forward to the incredible snark that's going to eventuate.  I wonder how long quarks' "Laurel fails as a..." sections will be!

[pivot]

I don't understand how the EPs thought this was a good idea. Let's film a 3-episode arc completely about the most polarizing minor character on the show, while giving the star of the show 3-episodes off. Does KC have blackmail material on the EPs and the CW? Because this business decision makes zero sense. I've never heard of a show that has intentionally given the star of the show multiple episodes off solely so they can focus on a supporting character that isn't even a fan favorite.

[statsgirl]

The only thing I can think of it that they must feel very secure about a season four pick-up.  TVbythenumbers says it's sure to be renewed because that will give the then numbers for syndication.

 

Okay, I know I'm picking nits here, but a three part trilogy? As opposed to what?

A one part trilogy. This is InstaCanary we're talking about, after all.

 

I doubt episodes 10-13 will be completely Laurel focused. Maybe 13 will be Laurel centric since it's called "Canaries" but I think they just mean laurel will get more character development in those episodes then she will in the episodes until the mid season finale. I'm sure there will be a lot of focus on Diggle/Felicity/Roy/Thea/Malcolm as well.

Didn't AK say that there will be little Diggle and Felicity in the three episodes?

[ban1o]

The only thing I can think of it that they must feel very secure about a season four pick-up.  TVbythenumbers says it's sure to be renewed because that will give the then numbers for syndication.

 

A one part trilogy. This is InstaCanary we're talking about, after all.

 

Didn't AK say that there will be little Diggle and Felicity in the three episodes?

yeah it's guaranteed season 4 because of syndication regardless of ratings. Unless it like drastically drops to like 0.3 or something lmao Even then it will still probably get renewed just the budget will be scaled down.

 

And I don't see anywhere where AK said that there will be little Diggle and Felicity and I watched all the videos lol. If someone can point exactly where he said that, I would appreciate it :P

Edited November 23, 2014 by ban1o

[Starfish35]

Well, just to play Devil's advocate here for a moment (not that I personally have any intention of watching these episodes anyway), but I do recall that they said something similar about a four episode arc for her last year, and really of those four episodes (211-214), only 211 "Blind Spot" was really focused on her. So maybe it'll be something similar this year.

[ban1o]

Well, just to play Devil's advocate here for a moment (not that I personally have any intention of watching these episodes anyway), but I do recall that they said something similar about a four episode arc for her last year, and really of those four episodes (211-214), only 211 "Blind Spot" was really focused on her. So maybe it'll be something similar this year.

yeah all I think they mean is that she'll have a character arch in these 4 episodes, not that the whole episode will focus on her.

 

Anyway I love the show despite some of it's drawbacks so I will definitely continue watching and hope the ratings continue to be good.

[JenMcSnark]

Well Douglas Adams had a trilogy in five parts, so I guess clarification is good!

 

That said with this lot I very much doubt it was a sly reference to Hitchhiker's.

 

I must say I am looking forward to the incredible snark that's going to eventuate.  I wonder how long quarks' "Laurel fails as a..." sections will be!

 

Kind of sounds like the case here to.  Isn't 309 about the Lance family too?  And then 310-313 are Laurel centric?  That's five damn episodes right there with too much LL for my liking.  

Well, just to play Devil's advocate here for a moment (not that I personally have any intention of watching these episodes anyway), but I do recall that they said something similar about a four episode arc for her last year, and really of those four episodes (211-214), only 211 "Blind Spot" was really focused on her. So maybe it'll be something similar this year.

No!  It's the end of the world!  No room for logic here. :-)

[dtissagirl]

There's no way NO HOW Arrow isn't getting a fourth season. It's become standard practice to let even shows that are losing money in S3 on air for the extra season JUST to get to the magical 88 episodes number, and then any and all losses are recouped in syndication.

Season 3 is basically the safest possible time for them to give Amell a 2 week vacation and focus 3-4 episodes on Laurel, because the worst thing that can happen is them getting lambasted with criticism. Which is not something that endangers network tv shows. Specially not shows in their third season.

[catrox14]

So Kreisberg took a page from DW and Journeys End to have everyone in the Lair as though it s the TARDIS.

WEELLLL, Andrew the difference is that the Doctor had years of companions to fly the TARDIS together and it is the Fucking Doctor. If that was his idea it's an massive overreach. Sheesh

[Starfish35]

I forgot about Lance family drama in 309. :(

Yeah, now that I've played devil's advocate for one side - here's the other. There's a big difference between last year and this year in that the lead character (Oliver) is going to be gone. That changes the picture quite a lot. And since Laurel is the theoretical female lead, they may consider this the time to bring her back to the forefront in a big way. *shrugs* I don't know.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Starfish35

[SonofaBiscuit]

-Oliver tells Barry that it'll never work between him and Iris, because there is no fun in being a depressed, brooding, lonely hero alone.

 

Haha!  Nobody should take relationship advice from Oliver Queen.  Just basically do the opposite of whatever he says.

 

I like how they're advertising 10, 11, and 12 as a 3-part trilogy about Laurel.  But then episode 13 is called "Canaries," so really it's a four-part story.  I was thinking that I would tune back in for episode 12 so I could see Oliver's return, but now I'm thinking that I'm out until at least episode 14.  I'll still watch them all, but I'll read comments before doing so.  I find that it gives me some time to prepare myself so that I don't just come on here and rage-post away.  The only thing that can entice me to watch live is if Oliver and Felicity actually begin dating for real in those episodes.

[Guest]

I assumed the Laurel trilogy was all about her becoming BC so I wouldn't be surprised if it is heavily focused on her, even more so with Oliver gone. Prepare yourselves is all I'm saying!

 

I'm still going to watch the episodes because I have a morbid curiosity to see how the show works without its main character but my interest is pretty much on the floor at this point. 3-4 episodes back to back is gonna be tough but then hopefully the other characters might get a chance to shine around all the problematic stuff. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for some Malcolm and Thea. I'm pretty sure Felicity has a scene with Malcolm in 310. And there was discussion the other day about Diggle putting on the Arrow suit. I can stomach the rest if that happens.

[statsgirl]

Does Oliver mean that there is no fun in being with a depressed, brooding lonely hero?  In that case, why not stop being depressed lonely and brooding?

 

If ep 3x13 is called Canaries, I fear it will be rage-inducing as they bring Sara to help crown Laurel in her new role, because there is no way they're going to give up on her as BC so soon.

 

If the show is back Jan 21, then does that mean that there are only 2 non-Laurel episode in sweeps month. They really are confident, aren't they?

Edited November 23, 2014 by statsgirl

[Danny Franks]

Does Oliver mean that there is no fun in being with a depressed, brooding lonely hero?  In that case, why not stop being depressed lonely and brooding?

 

Well he can't stop doing that now. Because Felicity kissed another boy. That means they're going steady, and she'll probably even go to the prom with him. A vigilante's problems just never end, man.

 

If ep 3x13 is called Canaries, I fear it will be rage-inducing as they bring Sara to help crown Laurel in her new role, because there is no way they're going to give up on her as BC so soon.

 

 

As a cheerful observer, I will actually take a measure of sadistic pleasure in reading the reactions, when they inevitably have Ghost Sara conveying her blessing on Laurel. Though honestly, if I was Caity Lotz, I'd have told the producers to go fuck themselves, if they asked me back to film a scene like that. But she's clearly a nicer person than I am.

[DrSpaceman10]

Diggle and Lyla apparently get engaged in the crossover and there's supposed to be a wedding this season. This means we might get Oliver/Felicity angsty-dancing after all. Also, weddings have been used on a lot of TV shows (ie: Luke/Lorelai on Gilmore Girls) to bring couples together.

[wonderwall]

Lois/Clark had an angsty scene during Chloe/Jimmy's wedding... :p

[Morrigan2575]

As a cheerful observer, I will actually take a measure of sadistic pleasure in reading the reactions, when they inevitably have Ghost Sara conveying her blessing on Laurel. Though honestly, if I was Caity Lotz, I'd have told the producers to go fuck themselves, if they asked me back to film a scene like that. But she's clearly a nicer person than I am.

I'm here for the Snark.

On the bright side, a Diggle/Lyla wedding means Lyla survives the crossover! I know many people started fearing for her life or that she'd turn evil to further someones manpain.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[DrSpaceman10]

I don't know if this is remotely trustworthy that's why I'm putting it in this thread, but, I saw it on 4chan

 

I work on the "Arrow" set. Straight to the point.

 

Nyssa killed Sara because Ra's brainwashed her to do it. She has no memory of it, which is why she's looking for the killer. Once she finds out what Ra's put her up to do, she betrays him and joins Oliver to bring Ra's down.

Edited November 23, 2014 by drspaceman10

[catrox14]

Her reaction to Nyssa should have been much more enthusiastic towards her GF unless they were fighting.

[DrSpaceman10]

It's probably not true but I personally think brainwashed Nyssa makes more sense than Thea.

[NumberCruncher]

That theory has definite possibilities. So if true, it must be that Oliver is forced to give himself up to the LoA to save Starling within the 48 hour window because the revelation about Nyssa happens later.

[Orion]

Not that I'm counting on this making sense at all but Nyssa uses red and black arrows.

 

 

Sara was killed with a black arrow.  We have been shown Malcolm uses black arrows. Grain of salt thought because I don't trust this show to follow logic anymore.

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah that sounds like a straight up foiler to me. But we'll have an answer by 309.

[patchwork]

I'm not keen on the idea but wasn't there a spoiler about Nyssa flashbacks? Ra could have done something to her when she was a child and those flashbacks are part of the killer reveal. 

[statsgirl]

Ra's would have supplied her with a Malcolm Merlyn arrow in the two birds with one stone (get payback on Malcolm, get rid of Nyssa's girlfriend) theory.

 

Katrina Law is not that much shorter than CH so Felicity's lower trajectory/short person doesn't make sense.

 

I was trying to explain the Merlyn DNA theory to my daughter, that the DNA on the arrow they think is Thea's but it's really Tommy's, when she said "Isn't being able to tell the difference between male XY and female XX the easiest test there is?"   Now I feel so stupid.

[Starfish35]

Yeah I don't believe that one at all.

[TanyaKay]

-Oliver tells Barry that it'll never work between him and Iris, because there is no fun in being a depressed, brooding, lonely hero alone.

 

I think Barry is far too smart to take romantic advice from Oliver.

That man is the worst when it comes to romance, look what his well intentioned but stupidest advice did to poor Roy? Not only did it alienate Thea but also lead Roy to Royd Rage and killing a cop. It also paved the way for Slade to kidnap an unaccompanied and broken hearted Thea (She saw Roy making out with some waitress) and tell her the truth about Malcolm which lead her to be the brat who refused to sign some paper making Olive so poor that he had to make gifts for little Digglet. All because he gave bad romance advice to Roy. Domino effect of bad romantic advice.

Edited November 24, 2014 by TanyaKay

[Morrigan2575]

I'm not keen on the idea but wasn't there a spoiler about Nyssa flashbacks? Ra could have done something to her when she was a child and those flashbacks are part of the killer reveal.

There was talk about Sara flashbacks to show how she went from the island to the LoA.

If they happen now it will probably be in 313.

It's kind of funny that people here find zombie tommy and brain washed Nyssa more plausible then Killer Thea and yet the 2 comments on that spoiler article (Thea killer) basically claim Thea as the most obvious choice.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Starfish35]

I don't find any of those three theories plausible personally.

However, while I don't believe the brainwashed Nyssa theory, there was a spoiler not too long ago about a young Nyssa being cast. Young Nyssa wouldn't fit into Sara flashbacks.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Starfish35