Spoiler Discussion Thread

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I wonder if they are going to continue trying to sell "Helix is terribad Evul", since they still haven't don't anything worse than Team Arrow. 

Oliver even broke someone out of ARGUS custody like 2 weeks later. Looking forward to his apology to Felicity for being a hypocrite. 

The argument that I'm getting hit with is not that working with them was so wrong since Oliver too works with sketchy people, but they are trying to claim that when Oliver does it, he does better research so he knows everything about them and is better able to control the outcome.  The claim is Felicity just trusts all hackers.  Obviously I strongly disagreed with this assessment.

[leopardprint]

10 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

but they are trying to claim that when Oliver does it, he does better research so he knows everything about them and is better able to control the outcome.

Point the First: Oliver let the Bratva into the city without knowing they wanted medicine to make super potent drugs.

b) Oliver didn't know/care that his own girlfriend was investigating him. 

Lastly, the DA with whom he worked closely outsmarted him for a year including at the very end. If everyone survives, it's not because of anything Oliver did. 

Oliver is a real strategic thinker who is constantly aware of what is going on around him and is a keen judge of character. 

Helix didn't even screw over Felicity they just chose not to continue working with her. 

Though I'm not even sure if they will follow through with Helix since Felicity's storylines seem to be the first on the chopping block when they need time. Honestly, I'd prefer if they focus on Smoak Tech than Helix. 

Edited June 8, 2017 by leopardprint

[insomniadreams88]

What I keep going back to is the fact that they were pretty vague about what Cayden James had done, so if they decide to make Helix this evil organization, I wouldn't be surprised if they suddenly make that this really, really bad thing that Lyla couldn't talk about before but suddenly, here's this entire file on all his bad deeds. But if they don't and James decides to target ARGUS in season 6 in a way that leads to Team Arrow helping Lyla, couldn't the argument be made that he maybe wouldn't have if they hadn't captured him and did whatever they did to him before chaining him up in a storage container?

And while I know it won't happen, I still want Cayden James to be Felicity's father because I'd love to see them try to make an argument for Felicity being in the wrong since blood family is so very important on Arrow. Will they say blood family only matters when it's someone related to Oliver by blood? 

ETA: According to http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Cayden_James, ARGUS just caught him trying to hack into their system? So they took him into custody because of what he could have done with the information but we don't know if he would have done anything? Am I missing something? 

Edited June 8, 2017 by insomniadreams88

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I don't think they hated her or viewed her as the enemy. However, based on Alena's goodbye, they view Felicity as a threat by extension. She's too connected/out there, she's rubbing elbows with Argus and Team Arrow and, Helix prefers to be on the down low.

Ah, gotcha. I don't even remember the details of Alena's goodbye video, just that there was one. Everything is kinda hazy tbh. But that would make more sense. 

[Mellowyellow]

I rarely defend Oliver but I don't think he did anything wrong in that episode. He listened when she told him to let the mercenaries have the drive.

Then he went to her place to beg her not to go through with it and gave very vague reasons as to why she shouldn't. I read that scene like he was freaking out about her in general. 

When she disagreed they were both very above board about it. She was going to go ahead and he was going to stop her and they had that understanding. No one lied to anyone. 

Yes he made a crack at her with the "Don't count on it" line when she turned the lasers on him but he was clearly very stressed about the whole thing.

I agreed with Felicity but I thought that if you were going to write Olicity at odds, it was handled well.

Oliver does a lot of dumb shit and continues to do a lot of dumb shit but I thought he handled himself well in that 519 situation with Felicity. For a control freak who likes to be boss I thought he was respectful of her considering how freaked out he was about her "spiral."

[BkWurm1]

9 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

ETA: According to http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Cayden_James, ARGUS just caught him trying to hack into their system? So they took him into custody because of what he could have done with the information but we don't know if he would have done anything? Am I missing something? 

Yeah, this is all we were told but by that standard, they should have tossed Felicity in the clink too since she's the one that got Alena in to find out about specific names of agents.  

Also, if Cayden James had actually done some thing so dangerous, that would have been the time to share the info to convince Felicity NOT to help break him out.  

I really don't love how the writers left themselves a way to make Felicity look bad if they want to by refusing to say WHY he was dangerous in the first place.  I would much rather they bring them back and let Felicity decide all over again if she wants to trust them or not.  Or just let them cross her and her decide they need to be brought down.    

[leopardprint]

19 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

ETA: According to http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Cayden_James, ARGUS just caught him trying to hack into their system? So they took him into custody because of what he could have done with the information but we don't know if he would have done anything? Am I missing something? 

IIRC, he didn't even succeed? They caught him hacking a node or something and thus tossed into a shipping container without trial or charge? Also something about being 10x worse than Snowden except I don't think he actually had any data to release so  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. 

5 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Oliver does a lot of dumb shit and continues to do a lot of dumb shit but I thought he handled himself well in that 519 situation with Felicity. For a control freak who likes to be boss I thought he was respectful of her considering how freaked out he was about her "spiral."

I don't necessarily disagree with you just that they didn't give any good reasons why Helix was so dark and terrible and then had Felicity apologize in the next episode for going to extreme measures when Oliver is going to do the exact same thing two episodes later. I actually think 519 was probably my favorite S5 episode even though Oliver was like a hysterical mother hen, pearl clutching and all. 

Edited June 8, 2017 by leopardprint

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I rarely defend Oliver but I don't think he did anything wrong in that episode. He listened when she told him to let the mercenaries have the drive.

Then he went to her place to beg her not to go through with it and gave very vague reasons as to why she shouldn't. I read that scene like he was freaking out about her in general. 

When she disagreed they were both very above board about it. She was going to go ahead and he was going to stop her and they had that understanding. No one lied to anyone. 

Yes he made a crack at her with the "Don't count on it" line when she turned the lasers on him but he was clearly very stressed about the whole thing.

I agreed with Felicity but I thought that if you were going to write Olicity at odds, it was handled well.

Oliver does a lot of dumb shit and continues to do a lot of dumb shit but I thought he handled himself well in that 519 situation with Felicity. For a control freak who likes to be boss I thought he was respectful of her considering how freaked out he was about her "spiral."

The only thing that Oliver might have done wrong was not back her play even with his concerns.  I can see both sides of the argument though so I'm fine with how it went down, mostly since we find out later that the reason he didn't just back her play was all tangled up with his issues with trusting his own judgment not so much hers.  Still, I would LOVE a clear cut scene in the future that sets up a similar blind trust option and has him back her play beyond just the spur of the moment thing in the field when he let them escape.  

[Mellowyellow]

Just now, leopardprint said:

IIRC, he didn't even succeed? They caught him hacking a node or something and thus tossed into a shipping container without trial or charge? Also something about being 10x worse than Snowden except I don't think he actually had any data to release so  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. 

I don't necessarily disagree with you just that they didn't give any good reasons why Helix was so dark and terrible and then had Felicity apologize in the next episode for going to extreme measures when Oliver is going to do the exact same thing two episodes later. 

I always took that apology as her putting the past behind them and soothing his soul since she found out what happened when he was with Chase. He looked grateful and just more at ease so I'm going with she said it to make him feel better. Sometimes you do that for someone you love.

[bijoux]

6 hours ago, leopardprint said:

 I actually think 519 was probably my favorite S5 episode even though Oliver was like a hysterical mother hen, pearl clutching and all. 

It's actually a reason why I found  the episode so enjoyable. ?

[Kymmi]

I think it would be interesting if Argus went after Felicity.  They suspect/know she broke Cayden James out.  They suspect/know she's touched their systems before.  She's as big of a threat as they could find, from an infosec perspective.  I just think it would be interesting to see how that played out between Diggle/Lyla, Diggle/OTA, Felicity/Lyla, etc.  

[leopardprint]

They would have to go after Oliver as well, since he also broke a prisoner out of their custody. 

[Morrigan2575]

13 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

They would have to go after Oliver as well, since he also broke a prisoner out of their custody. 

2 prisoners

[insomniadreams88]

50 minutes ago, Kymmi said:

I think it would be interesting if Argus went after Felicity.  They suspect/know she broke Cayden James out.  They suspect/know she's touched their systems before.  She's as big of a threat as they could find, from an infosec perspective.  I just think it would be interesting to see how that played out between Diggle/Lyla, Diggle/OTA, Felicity/Lyla, etc.  

I feel like that's something they have to at least address on-screen. But I am a bit worried about how they'd have it play out. I don't exactly trust these writers. 

[leopardprint]

14 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

2 prisoners

LOL, actually 3! (Chase, Slade, Boomerang) 

Does that mean Oliver owes Felicity three apologies? ?(oh show) 

[Kymmi]

That's a good point - there's also the question on whether the Argus Lian Yu guard lives through the explosion.  

[BkWurm1]

11 hours ago, leopardprint said:

They would have to go after Oliver as well, since he also broke a prisoner out of their custody. 

Barry also broke into Argus and stole an energy source.  Then Lyla gave it to him and said he owed her one.  How about Barry vs Team Arrow on behalf of Argus? It seems contrived but Barry could end up helping maybe without knowing exactly who he was up against.  

[strikera0]

I don't know how valid this is, but I found this casting call on the Arrow Reddit:

[way2interested]

Ricardo Diaz? Like from Grand Theft Auto? Obviously a fake name but a kooky choice.

Guess he's 6a's main villain?

Edited June 14, 2017 by way2interested

[lemotomato]

Ricardo Diaz is the New 52 incarnation of Richard Dragon, according to wikipedia.

Quote

A new version of Richard Dragon is introduced following DC's The New 52 2011 continuity relaunch. A character identifying himself as Richard Dragon first appears in Green Arrow #23 (2013). [7] In Green Arrow #31, he appears leading a team of Green Arrow's enemies, referred to as the Longbow Hunters. In Green Arrow #32 the character identifies himself as Ricardo Diaz, Jr., the namesake son of a drug kingpin who had been killed by John Diggle (posing as Green Arrow). He revealed that after his father's death and the fall of his criminal empire he sought out and found the League of Assassins where his sensei taught him to become a living weapon. He claims that when his sensei also taught him patience and compassion, which he perceived to be a weakness, he killed his sensei and took his name. Diaz/Dragon places a 30-million-dollar bounty on Green Arrow, which three members of the Longbow Hunters (Brick, Killer Moth, and Red Dart) intend to split. Green Arrow is able to defeat all of them with the help of his young half-sister, Emiko. Green Arrow is then reunited with his old partner, John Diggle, after Dragon attempts to kill Diggle by defenestration. In a fight against both Arrow and Diggle, Dragon is able to significantly injure both of them, but is ultimately defeated.

Edited June 14, 2017 by lemotomato

[way2interested]

Just now, lemotomato said:

Ricardo Diaz is the New 52 incarnation of Richard Dragon, according to wikipedia.

Ah, makes much more sense, especially since Richard Dragon's been on the list for potential Arrow big bads for a while.

[lemotomato]

He's also connected to The Question, another character that MG mentioned recently that he wanted to bring to the show.

[insomniadreams88]

Hmm. I'm tentatively intrigued. 

[way2interested]

So then I wouldn't be surprised if The Question (or at least his name) is also cast this season.

[statsgirl]

23 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Ricardo Diaz, Jr., the namesake son of a drug kingpin who had been killed by John Diggle (posing as Green Arrow). He revealed that after his father's death and the fall of his criminal empire he sought out and found the League of Assassins where his sensei taught him to become a living weapon.

I'm getting Chase flashbacks.

I guess this is part of bringing Diggle into the comicsand dumping Felicity.

[lemotomato]

13 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I guess this is part of bringing Diggle into the comicsand dumping Felicity.

No, the Ricardo Diaz storyline happened when Jeff Lemire was writing GA. He preceded Ben Sokolowski, who first introduced Felicity into the GA comic during his run.

Edited June 14, 2017 by lemotomato

[Delphi]

He's also been connected to Huntress and Oracle.  Make of that what you will. 

[Morrigan2575]

I liked the Richard Dragon storyline that Lemire wrote even though it seemed (not 100% sure) that it was shortened due to the AJK shakeup. I always felt that story deserved more issues.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[leopardprint]

50 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I'm getting Chase flashbacks.

I guess this is part of bringing Diggle into the comicsand dumping Felicity.

It sounds exactly like Chase except Diggle instead of Oliver and Gangs instead of DA. 

[Primal Slayer]

He also helped train Black Canary. He gets around.

[way2interested]

I wonder if he still sets the bounty and then that's where all of these leftover villains come into play.

[LeighAn]

If he's the big bad/6A Villan then Black Sirens role makes sense now. She must be one of the ones chasing the bounty or whatever. I assumed they were going for a Team Villan vs Team Arrow bit anyway. 

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, LeighAn said:

If he's the big bad/6A Villan then Black Sirens role makes sense now. She must be one of the ones chasing the bounty or whatever. I assumed they were going for a Team Villan vs Team Arrow bit anyway. 

Wiley E Coyote I'm telling ya! But less cute! 

[Proteus]

43 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

If he's the big bad/6A Villan then Black Sirens role makes sense now. She must be one of the ones chasing the bounty or whatever. I assumed they were going for a Team Villan vs Team Arrow bit anyway. 

Why does this villain being cast mean Siren will start chasing a bounty?

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, way2interested said:

I wonder if he still sets the bounty and then that's where all of these leftover villains come into play.

I like the idea of going back to a baddie-of-the-week formula. It lessens the tedium of revealing bits of the big bad's big plan week after week.    

48 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

If he's the big bad/6A Villan then Black Sirens role makes sense now. She must be one of the ones chasing the bounty or whatever. I assumed they were going for a Team Villan vs Team Arrow bit anyway. 

BS's only roles have been hired lackey to Zoom, then Prometheus, so bounty hunter would make sense. 

[Morrigan2575]

Just now, lemotomato said:

BS's only roles have been hired lackey to Zoom, then Prometheus, so bounty hunter would make sense. 

Or minion number #2 to Richard Dragon.

[lemotomato]

13 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Or minion number #2 to Richard Dragon.

Whatever pays the bills! 

Keeping her as a mercenary/paid goon would also give the writers an easy way to change her allegiances if they want. 

[LeighAn]

39 minutes ago, Proteus said:

Why does this villain being cast mean Siren will start chasing a bounty?

Because the casting call says that he is someone who using $25 million dollars to control the criminal element and in his comic version he places a bounty on Green Arrow and since Siren is a Villan and a criminal who tried to kill Oliver his team and his son. So it seems logical, just saying....

Edited June 15, 2017 by LeighAn

[way2interested]

Although I guess the main question would be then why would he want to get rid of the Green Arrow, unless Team Arrow had something to do with his incarceration/backstory (if he's the big bad, I guess it could be semi-interesting if it was someone they thought they put away the "right" way coming back to haunt them even if it's the past coming back trope yet again) or maybe it's just Team Arrow would be in the way of his revenge mission/mission to control the crime circuit (if he's just 6a's villain, but that would kind of be copying what they did with Church for 5a just with more VOTWs, not that I would really mind). 

[BkWurm1]

Doesn't every new crime boss try to take out the Arrow?  Nothing personal. ;)

[tv echo]

Link for above casting call post on Arrow Reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/arrow/comments/6h8yob/spoiler_s6_season_6_villain/ 

Don't they usually use fake names in casting call notices? So why would they use an actual name from the comics? Unless maybe they intentionally wanted people to know who was going to be the S6 Big Bad?

Also, that casting call notice says that it's for a "7/13 FRACTIONAL SERIES REGULAR." So it doesn't sound as if "Ricardo Diaz" will appear in every episode (assuming the casting notice is genuine) - which means we're in for another season of the Big Bad going on vacation disappearing for a portion of the season.

Quote

Sorry, just a bit of lingo I don't know that google isn't being super helpful with. If a character is a fractional series regular what does that mean?
*  *  *
Exactly it means you are guaranteed to appear in only a fraction of the episodes. Typically they do 7/13 or 10/13 (13 being a half a season which is usually what they commit to out of the gate). But any fraction can be offered or negotiated. Doesn't mean you won't appear in more, but it means if you appear in fewer they still have to pay you for the 7 or 10 or whatever. "All Episodes Produced" is the other option for series regular.

http://bbs.backstage.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/9611031/m/773104505

Quote

When producers want to secure guest actors’ ongoing availability, the producers put them under contract as series regulars. Those contracts aren’t only for cast members who appear in every episode; some series regular contracts specify a certain percentage of the episodes (for example, 7 out of 10) but hold the actor for the entire season, with shooting dates TBD. Those per-episode salaries are considerably higher, in exchange for the actor clearing his schedule. In this business, people have to pay for your availability.

https://www.backstage.com/advice-for-actors/the-working-actor/contract-specifics-guest-starring-roles/

Edited June 15, 2017 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

No Big Bad has ever appeared in all 23 episodes. Even Slade missed a few episodes in S2 and, he was in the Flashbacks as well as present day.

[tv echo]

This article about The Question was published yesterday (incidentally, Renee Montoya was a GCPD detective in S1 of Gotham) ...

Q&A: 9 answers for The Question's 50th anniversary
Matthew Funk Jun 14, 2017 
http://www.blastr.com/2017-6-14/qa-9-answers-questions-50th-anniversary

Quote

The mysterious faceless hero known as The Question is one of comic books' most visually striking and compelling crime-fighting enigmas. He first appeared 50 years ago this month in the pages of Charlton Comics' Blue Beetle #1, before being integrated into the DC Universe in the mid-'80s, along with the rest of Charlton characters.
*  *  *
... There have been several versions of the Question, but the original and most well-known character was Vic Sage, an ace investigative reporter who dons a faceless mask to gather the answers he could never get in his civilian disguise. His origin has been tweaked, but the most common telling is that Vic was raised in an abusive orphanage and when he was old enough left to study journalism. He was later approached as a reporter by an old professor and mentor named Aristotle Rodor, who tipped Sage off about a potentially toxic substance being sold to unknowing countries as medical supplies, and gave him some of the substance to use as a mask. After putting a stop to the operation, he decided to keep the mask and identity.

Renee Montoya, an officer of the Gotham City Police Department, has also used the alias in the years after her mentor, the original Question, died. There's yet another version who was introduced in the New 52 era of DC Comics, but he's not as cool — we'll get to him in due time, though.
*  *  *
Unfortunately, since The Question has had so few series, this one is pretty easy. The most celebrated run on the Question is the one introduces him into the DC Universe in a self-titled 1987 series by Denny O’Neil and Denys Cowan. The series had the titular character trained by Richard Dragon in martial arts, and also in the ways of Eastern philosophy. Vic underwent a transformation of character as he adjusted to new beliefs that were less black-and-white than his previous characterization. The series lasted for just over 30 issues and is by far the character's longest-running series.

Vic Sage and his protégé Renee Montoya played a big part in the weekly series 52, which had Vic contracting lung cancer and eventually passing his mantle down to Renee. The following stories with Renee tied her closely with the new Batwoman, who she frequently teamed up with in more ways than one.
*  *  *
The Question has yet to appear in live action, sadly, though his hometown of Hub City has made a few appearance in The CW's superhero television universe. The Question's biggest claim to fame outside of comics is in animation, specifically as a recurring character on Justice League Unlimited. In that version, he's played up as a conspiracy theorist who often works around and outside of the Justice League, trying to expose the secrets of Project Cadmus. He's also romantically involved with Huntress in the show, a callback to the Huntress story "Cry for Blood" when Vic Sage helps Huntress learn to contain her rage.

And of course, a character based on The Question has made it to the big screen -- one who, the way DC's continuity is going, is basically an alternate reality version of the Question. I’m talking, obviously, about Watchmen's Rorschach. The ink-blotted vigilante is far and away the most popular 'super hero' from the landmark graphic novel, and was — like the rest of the book's cast — a pastiche of one of Ditko's Charlton creations.

Edited June 15, 2017 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

Bambam got the first episode again.

I'm also taking bets on how long it will take fandom to figure out the title.

[Lady Calypso]

10 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Bambam got the first episode again.

I'm also taking bets on how long it will take fandom to figure out the title.

Great. Let's start the season off with a little bit of nausea.

Seriously, though, I hope he tones down on the camera angles, because I always feel a little sick at some point during his directed episodes because he can't just keep the camera still. 

[Morrigan2575]

I thought he did a good job on 501/502 and I don't remember having any real complaints about 508 that I would put on the director.

He's not a great director by any stretch of the imagination but he's gotten better since his S4 vanity crap, IMO.

[way2interested]

I thought he definitely stepped up by the time we got to 502 and 508, especially since those episodes actually were able to have some relatively finely shot character moments, but not too excited. Mostly whelmed and hoping he doesn't get a third of 6a like he did 5a (since that's just kind of rubs me the wrong way).

Does it look like one long word or two short words?

[Mellowyellow]

Gawd it's so weird now that I'm excited about WM written episodes. Freaks me out!!!!

[lemotomato]

21 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Does it look like one long word or two short words?

I think SA scribbles out the titles beyond the actual words, unlike how MG blocks out the title exactly letter to letter.
This was his post for "Lian Yu":

Edited June 17, 2017 by lemotomato

[Morrigan2575]

Emoji = excitement, thoughtful, scared, sick and death?