Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Velocity23]

Didnt Zoom still happen on the Flash the way it did in s2?

[Morrigan2575]

Yes, since Henry is still dead and Caitlin just referenced Jay.

[Chaser]

9 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm really curious about Felicity and Prometheus in that 510 BTS picture from EBR. Does Felicity go and confront Prometheus in anger? Is she having a nightmare? Does Prometheus find her and try to emotionally manipulate her?

SA said that Felicitys storyline coming up involved a new threat. I was wondering if after tonight, Prometheus is focusing on her as a way to get to Oliver. I haven't been able to watch the episode yet but did they explain why Mayo was taken? Wrong time or place? Or could it be his connection to Felicity, possibly tied into what SA said at the 100th?

[dtissagirl]

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

SA said that Felicitys storyline coming up involved a new threat.

Did we ever figure out if he said threat or thread?

[way2interested]

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

SA said that Felicitys storyline coming up involved a new threat. I was wondering if after tonight, Prometheus is focusing on her as a way to get to Oliver. I haven't been able to watch the episode yet but did they explain why Mayo was taken? Wrong time or place? Or could it be his connection to Felicity, possibly tied into what SA said at the 100th?

It was wrong place/wrong time, but part of me was thinking that the whole set-up (getting Oliver to kill him) had to be because of his connection to Felicity and subsequently Oliver.

Edited December 8, 2016 by way2interested

[LeighAn]

11 minutes ago, Chaser said:

SA said that Felicitys storyline coming up involved a new threat. I was wondering if after tonight, Prometheus is focusing on her as a way to get to Oliver. I haven't been able to watch the episode yet but did they explain why Mayo was taken? Wrong time or place? Or could it be his connection to Felicity, possibly tied into what SA said at the 100th?

As in destroy or emotionally hurt/manipulate Felicity in order to hurt Oliver? I could see that. Remember in season 2 when they had the Slade montage about "corrupting those he loves" and showed Felicity but then they never actually explored that. Maybe Prometheus might? 

Obviously though if they are going to go the Prometheus targets Felicity to target Oliver the shows going to have to do a better job of Oliver showing concern for Felicity and her feelings.

[Chaser]

24 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Didnt Zoom still happen on the Flash the way it did in s2?

My train of thought was everything still happened on Flash, BS still ended up in their underground prison, but when Barry created Flashpoint it scrambled something in her brain. I don't know why it would happen and how she would get out, because comics I'm guessing, but it would actually make more sense then BS running a Con. I just cant figure out how they are going to write her out now.

16 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Did we ever figure out if he said threat or thread?

I only heard Threat. 

14 minutes ago, way2interested said:

It was wrong timing, but part of me was thinking that the whole set-up (getting Oliver to kill him) had to be because of his connection to Felicity and subsequently Oliver.

This would be more interesting too me. Evelyn could have told him about Felicity and Mayo. Felicity has lost everything. She has to be vulnerable right now. Prometheus trying to manipulate that would be something to see. I don't want Felicity to go evil or anything, my preferred outcome is she flips the table and they run a game on Prometheus. 

Edited December 8, 2016 by Chaser

[bijoux]

19 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Did we ever figure out if he said threat or thread?

Somebody who was at the con confirmed that it was thread as far as I remember.

[apinknightmare]

25 minutes ago, way2interested said:

It was wrong place/wrong time, but part of me was thinking that the whole set-up (getting Oliver to kill him) had to be because of his connection to Felicity and subsequently Oliver.

I was trying to see if there was any sense of be made of the "Billy should be worried about his connection to Felicity" thing SA and WM were spewing at the 100th, and it never quite connected. I guess Prometheus might've had plans to kidnap Billy regardless, but the way it was set up - with Billy following leads that Felicity asked him not to - was something he did on his own and would've done on his own simply because he's a cop (like he argued). It would've been something else if he was on a little side mission that Felicity asked him to do for Oliver or something, but he was there on his own volition because he wanted to do his job. 

Curtis's husband took off because of something completely unrelated to anything Oliver did. Diggle got caught unrelated to anything Oliver did (because I firmly believe Lyla would've found a way to get him out regardless), and Felicity lost her boyfriend completely unrelated to anything Oliver did (as far as putting Billy in the situation that got him kidnapped and killed - obviously he's the one who actually killed him), and none of these things are going to drive a wedge between any of them it seems. 

Weak round one, Prometheus. 

Edited December 8, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

Thread is much less interesting. 

[way2interested]

2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I was trying to see if there was any sense of be made of the "Billy should be worried about his connection to Felicity" thing SA and WM were spewing at the 100th, and it never quite connected. I guess Prometheus might've had plans to kidnap Billy regardless, but the way it was set up - with Billy following leads that Felicity asked him not to - was something he did on his own and would've done on his own simply because he's a cop (like he argued). It would've been something else if he was on a little side mission that Felicity asked him to do for Oliver or something, but he was there on his own volition because he wanted to do his job.

I get that, but it just screams to me set-up because Prometheus didn't kill Malone at all (which is what Chase said usually happens to cops who run into Prometheus) and instead waited for Oliver to do it. It was kind of a coincidence that worked in Prometheus' favor since he would have killed Malone anyway but saw who he was (since Evelyn found out that Felicity was dating him) and took advantage of it.

[looptab]

18 minutes ago, Chaser said:

. Felicity has lost everything. She has to be vulnerable right now. Prometheus trying to manipulate that would be something to see. I don't want Felicity to go evil or anything, my preferred outcome is she flips the table and they run a game on Prometheus. 

I was going to write just that. Give me Felicity under cover!

Edited December 8, 2016 by looptab

[Morrigan2575]

9 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I was trying to see if there was any sense of be made of the "Billy should be worried about his connection to Felicity" thing SA and WM were spewing at the 100th, and it never quite connected. I guess Prometheus might've had plans to kidnap Billy regardless, but the way it was set up - with Billy following leads that Felicity asked him not to - was something he did on his own and would've done on his own simply because he's a cop (like he argued). It would've been something else if he was on a little side mission that Felicity asked him to do for Oliver or something, but he was there on his own volition because he wanted to do his job. 

My guess is that Prometheus might have let Billy go if it wasn't for the information Evelyn provided. Up until now (I think) Prometheus has just killed bad cops that were a threat to GA or himself.

So instead of ignoring or injuring Billy, Prometheus sets him up to be killed by Oliver. I do think on the surface SA's comment works.

I also think SAs jokes have a lot more truth to them then initially expected.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

Just now, way2interested said:

I get that, but it just screams to me set-up because Prometheus didn't kill Malone at all (which is what Chase said usually happens to cops who run into Prometheus) and instead waited for Oliver to do it. It was kind of a coincidence that worked in Prometheus' favor since he would have killed Malone anyway but saw who he was (since Evelyn found out that Felicity was dating him) and took advantage of it.

Oh, I'm agreeing with you! Sorry, that wan't clear. I do think it was a setup, it was just a terrible setup since Billy got kidnapped while he was doing his work as a cop. I think it would've been a better setup if he'd been out doing something that Felicity asked him to do for Green Arrow business or for Oliver or something. Since Oliver killed him without knowing who he was and can't be blamed for Billy being in the circumstance he was in that led to his kidnapping, it just seems like a weak wedge driver to me, which...maybe it was supposed to be since Felicity immediately told Oliver not to blame himself for it.

[Chaser]

It works better if the goal was to get to Felicity more so than Oliver. Felicity may not blame Oliver but that doesn't stop her from being emotionally wrecked at the moment. Or alone.

sigh. This is probably one of those things I see potential in, only for the show to completely miss it.

[Morrigan2575]

It absolutely could be about getting to Felicity. We know there's a Felicity/Prometheus scene of some sort in 510 and, Felicity has a new storyline starting in 5B.

I don't particularly want to see a Felicity goes Dark or Felicity becomes a killer storyline but, I think it's possible given everything she's been through

Edited December 8, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[LeighAn]

16 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

It absolutely could be about getting to Felicity. We know there's a Felicity/Prometheus scene of some sort in 510 and, Felicity has a new storyline starting in 5B.

I don't particularly want to see a Felicity goes Dark or Felicity becomes a killer storyline but, I think it's possible given everything she's been through

I'm getting BadWillow vibes from this. 

Which hopefully means Oliver is the Xander in this scenario. 

[Sunshine]

Did PB end up with a "fall off the wagon go to rehab" storyline just to remove him from any  LL returns episodes? Do we think he's back in 5.10 or TPTB just don't want to deal with that aspect of the story?

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, Sunshine said:

Did PB end up with a "fall off the wagon go to rehab" storyline just to remove him from any  LL returns episodes? Do we think he's back in 5.10 or TPTB just don't want to deal with that aspect of the story?

I'm expecting someone to make some comment along the lines of, "Well, it's a good thing Lance isn't here for this..." once they figure out she's Black Siren. Maybe they'll remember that heart condition of his too. 

But if Black Siren really wanted to mess with them (especially if she's in any way connected to Prometheus, even though there's a very slim chance she is), she'd try to go see him in rehab pretending to be his daughter. 

[bijoux]

52 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Thread is much less interesting. 

Personally, I'm not jonesing for a Felicity in peril storyline. I mean, if it goes the way Slade did, bring it. Bring it often and regularly. Otherwise, I'll take thread. It has more possibilities.

[Chaser]

I don't think I would ever buy Felicity going legitimately evil. Which is why I would need it to be a con, but a con that isn't revealed right away. I would also like Diggle and Oliver to be the only ones in on it right away.....maybe after Oliver has a moment of wondering. 

A couple things stop me from actually thinking this will happen. 1) I don't trust the writers with something this cool and 2) They said the key role Felicity plays wouldn't involve Oliver. 

I cant see how Felicity going undercover with Prometheus wouldn't involve Oliver.

[tv echo]

So now it appears like Prometheus is Justin Claybourne's son - some new character who we haven't met yet and maybe hasn't even been cast yet, since the big reveal probably won't happen until later this season. For a moment, I thought (again) that Adrian Chase might be Prometheus when Chase was so insistent on Oliver giving the "kill on sight" order, but it still wouldn't explain why Prometheus didn't think that the Green Arrow had ever experienced loss - assuming that Evelyn only told him that Oliver was the GA after that initial confrontation between Prometheus and Oliver. 

As others have said, the woman who taught Oliver that air flip move in Russia was probably Talia al Ghul. Team Arrow believes that Prometheus learned that move by studying the Hood/Arrow/GA over the past four years. But how did Prometheus become as good a fighter as Oliver in four years, when Oliver has been training for longer than that?  I guess, if Prometheus devoted himself exclusively to training, it's possible (like Thea, Roy and Laurel became good fighters in a short period of time).  However, maybe it's possible that Prometheus had been training before S1 even began. Maybe Prometheus trained directly with Talia and was a member of the League of Assassins. Suppose his mother died and his father was unknown. He finally finds out or is told that his bio dad is Justin Claybourne. He comes to Starling City to meet his father, but he's too late - Justin has already been murdered by Oliver. So he begins his vengeance quest against Oliver.

Or... maybe Prometheus is just a pawn of Talia al Ghul, the real Big Bad, who's out to avenge the death of her father, Ra's al Ghul.

[bijoux]

Prometheus knew about Oliver being GA before Evelyn fell in with him. Church told him even if he hadn't known prior to that.

[Morrigan2575]

8 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Or... maybe Prometheus is just a pawn of Talia al Ghul, the real Big Bad, who's out to avenge the death of her father, Ra's al Ghul.

Completely and totally plausible. Which of course makes me think Susan is working with/for Talia as well.

How old is Talia supposed to be? How old was she in the LoT episode and what year was it set? Is it possible that Talia is Justin Clayborne's mother? Wife? Baby Mama?

Edited December 8, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[bijoux]

Late 50's and she was about 8 or 10, perhaps? I like the spec about her being Prometheus' mother.

[insomniadreams88]

Maybe Susan's not working for the bad guy but is using it to her advantage? I have to assume that especially after that photo from Russia, she's done some digging into Oliver's past. She sees Oliver's stressed, so she starts by offering to be a "friend." She knows that Oliver and Felicity were engaged (and especially after that very awkward meet at the holiday party), so when she sees the news report of Felicity's boyfriend dying, she slips on some lingerie just in case Oliver stops by. 

[LeighAn]

6 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Completely and totally plausible. Which of course makes me think Susan is working with/for Talia as well.

How old is Talia supposed to be? How old was she in the LoT episode and what year was it set? Is it possible that Talia is Justin Clayborne's mother? Wife? Baby Mama?

Sara Ray and Kendra were stuck in 1960 and Sara left to join the league. Talia looked about 9 or 10 which would make her about 70ish today unless she's been taking Lazarus water as well 

[Morrigan2575]

4 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Late 50's and she was about 8 or 10, perhaps? I like the spec about her being Prometheus' mother.

Shit, now that I'm thinking about it, thus would be a total TDKR ripoff. Prometheus is Bane. Talia is Talia and Susan is in the "Miranda Tate" role. Damn they do love ripping off TDK Trilogy...this ups the chances

[Chaser]

Original thy name is not Arrow.

[LeighAn]

Prometheus motivation to be Talias stooge would make sense- and would make him a total Kylo Ren so I take back my apology- but what would Susans motivation be? 

[Morrigan2575]

10 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Sara Ray and Kendra were stuck in 1960 and Sara left to join the league. Talia looked about 9 or 10 which would make her about 70ish today unless she's been taking Lazarus water as well 

 They cast Lexa Doig as Talia, so I'm going with LP Water

Edited December 8, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[bijoux]

3 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Prometheus motivation to be Talias stooge would make sense- and would make him a total Kylo Ren so I take back my apology- but what would Susans motivation be?

To not make me fall asleep?

[Chaser]

Recapping SAs 'jokes' at SDCC: 

Oliver kills the BF

Oliver is there to comfort Felicity

Olicity and Russian vodka leads to sexy time mistakes.

That's......interesting. Was the original plan to have Oliver and Felicity sleep together in 5x09? 

[bijoux]

I don't know. I was actually thinking which came first, the decision to have Oliver kill off Malone or SA joking about it. Maybe the producers were inspired by it.

[Chaser]

Wouldn't be the only joke they were inspired by. 

[Lady Calypso]

So, people are thinking now that this is actually Laurel and it's a result of Sara telling Damien Darhk about his future. They're convinced now because MG and WM "confirmed" that this is actually Laurel and not a Flashback/Flashpoint scenario. Apparently, they also said it's not BS, but I don't see the actual quote that states this. Besides, I don't trust MG and WM's words any more. They've been known to lie.

So, if the show comes back to discover that Sara inadvertently brought back Laurel, then I might have to be mad at Sara now. #damnitsara

[insomniadreams88]

But didn't KC say at some convention that she was back as Black Siren? 

[Lady Calypso]

Just now, insomniadreams88 said:

But didn't KC say at some convention that she was back as Black Siren? 

Probably. People might assume she's only back as Black Siren on The Flash. 

I still believe she's Black Siren and not E1 Laurel, though. 

[Chaser]

3 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

So, people are thinking now that this is actually Laurel and it's a result of Sara telling Damien Darhk about his future. They're convinced now because MG and WM "confirmed" that this is actually Laurel and not a Flashback/Flashpoint scenario. Apparently, they also said it's not BS, but I don't see the actual quote that states this. Besides, I don't trust MG and WM's words any more. They've been known to lie.

So, if the show comes back to discover that Sara inadvertently brought back Laurel, then I might have to be mad at Sara now. #damnitsara

If that was the case then she would have been alive from the start of the season cause she never would have died. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

Well the show is trying to trick the viewers into making them think it's E1 Laurel and not BS, despite what KC said. I imagine the pleased reaction after the hiatus, LOL.

[Morrigan2575]

4 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

So, people are thinking now that this is actually Laurel and it's a result of Sara telling Damien Darhk about his future. They're convinced now because MG and WM "confirmed" that this is actually Laurel and not a Flashback/Flashpoint scenario. Apparently, they also said it's not BS, but I don't see the actual quote that states this. Besides, I don't trust MG and WM's words any more. They've been known to lie.

So, if the show comes back to discover that Sara inadvertently brought back Laurel, then I might have to be mad at Sara now. #damnitsara

Where did they say this?

3 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

But didn't KC say at some convention that she was back as Black Siren? 

Yes, she confirmed she's back as Black Siren and I think she actually mentioned both Arrow and Flash

[Lady Calypso]

http://www.quirkybyte.com/2016/12/arrow-season-5-laurel-lance-alive/

Apparently, that article "confirms" it. People can be convinced by anything. 

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

http://www.quirkybyte.com/2016/12/arrow-season-5-laurel-lance-alive/

Apparently, that article "confirms" it. People can be convinced by anything. 

thank you for putting "confirms" in quotes because that article doesn't confirm anything :)

[Lady Calypso]

Just now, Morrigan2575 said:

thank you for putting "confirms" in quotes because that article doesn't confirm anything :)

Heh. MG says that she's not a flashback or a Flashpoint effect. But then people construe the part about her not being Black Siren as a direct quote from MG, which isn't true. It seems to be what the author is saying, not MG. 

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

Heh. MG says that she's not a flashback or a Flashpoint effect. But then people construe the part about her not being Black Siren as a direct quote from MG, which isn't true. It seems to be what the author is saying, not MG. 

Yep, I went through that and, just compared the authors words to what was actually quoted.  You always have to read the quotes. :)

Edited December 8, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[tv echo]

Return of Laurel spoilers (in chronological order)...

-- On when we'll see her again on other TV shows, KC: "Other TV shows like the Flash? Legends? ... I have no idea... I don't know, because I have a contract right now. So whenever that contract, I guess, is up. I don't know. But I know you'll see me on those three - Arrow, Flash, Legends. At least." (Sep. 9, 2016 video of US Weekly interview with KC, page 473 of Social Media thread)

-- On what ways we might see KC appear in Arrow outside of just flashbacks, WM: "I can tell you that we're really excited about having her back. You will see in the episodes where she appears - Episode 510 definitely, our midseason premiere. Keep your eyes out for that. We're so excited about getting to work with her again and her willingness to come back. It's one of the fun parts of the show. People can leave and get killed and you can still find new and crazy ways for them to come back. I can definitely tell you that there's a way we're going to bring her back and she's going to be alive and well. And Flashpoint might have a little bit to do with that." (Oct. 2, 2016 TV Guide article, page 45 of Spoilers thread)

-- On whether KC will be on the Flash again this season, Flash EP Andrew Kreisberg: "Again, we don’t want to give too much away, but Katie will be back and it’s going to be fun and exciting — that much I can promise." (Oct. 3, 2016 Entertainment Weekly article, page 201 of Mind Your Surroundings thread)

-- Canadagraphs tweeted that Laurel is dead, that we'll only see her as a flashback or evil E2 version, and that she won't be back in her current BC form. (Oct. 5, 2016 Canadagraphs tweets, page 46 of Spoilers thread)

-- On how they will use WMiller, JBarrowman and KC, MG: "On 'Legends of Tomorrow' Wentworth and John will be members of the Legion of Doom. Katie is a far more interesting question because we actually have a story for Katie on 'Legends of Tomorrow' that I am super excited about. It could be the thing I’m most excited about. But it’s early, and we’re not ready to spoil what that’s going to be. I think it could be really, really awesome." (Oct. 11, 2016 IMDB article, page 206 of Mind Your Surroundings thread)

-- On what he can tease about KC's return, MG: "I will say it’s really been wonderful watching her in dailies again. I’m excited about our plans, but midseason is so far off, I have to be particularly stingy in terms of details." (Oct. 12, 2016 Mashable article, page 184 of Starling City Times thread)

-- When asked about KC returning to the many different series, GB: "She gets to play a couple of different things this year... that's a good tease, right? She's not just playing a character this year - she's a couple of different things." Interviewer interjected: "Black Siren is still on the table, correct?" GB nodded. (KSiteTV video interview with GB at Arrow's Oct. 22, 2016 100th Episode Celebration, page 50 of Spoilers thread)

-- On Laurel's return: WM: “I can tease that she’s coming back... We’re really excited to have her, and it’s absolutely going to be a surprising, cool way that we bring her back." SA: “We find her in a very unexpected spot at a very, very retrospectively expected time." Per MMcL, Evelyn’s reaction to the Canary would probably be similar to her own response when she first met Katie Cassidy, saying: “Probably a bit star struck… they’re big shoes to fill... Meeting Katie, she was the sweetest; she totally embraced me and really welcomed me, and I have a feeling it would be a really similar encounter with Evelyn and the Black Canary.” GB revealed that we’ll be seeing Laurel in several alternate ways, saying: “She gets to play a couple of different things this year. She’s not just playing a character this year. She’s a couple of different things." On whether Black Siren is still on the table, GB nodded that yes, she is. (Oct. 25, 2016 GATV article, page 1191 of Spoiler Discussion thread)

-- Static Rift tweeted: "Just found out that @MzKatieCassidy will be back on Arrow and Flash as Black Siren." (Nov. 11, 2016 StaticRiftRadio tweet, page 48 of Spoilers thread)

-- Canadagraphs tweeted that KC will be back as Black Siren, not Black Canary, for at least two episodes.  (Nov. 12, 2016 Canadagraphs tweet, page 1214 of Spoiler Discussion thread)

-- On whether Laurel is really alive, SA said we'd have to tune in when Arrow returns in January to find out. SA: "Obviously, people don't just come back from the dead. So, there has to be some sort of vetting process to make sure it actually is Laurel. Because the group has seen some, uh, some peculiar things, but we delve into that when we come back in - in the new year." (Dec. 7, 2016 SA facebook video post, page 50 of Spoilers thread)

[calliope1975]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Shit, now that I'm thinking about it, thus would be a total TDKR ripoff. Prometheus is Bane. Talia is Talia and Susan is in the "Miranda Tate" role. Damn they do love ripping off TDK Trilogy...this ups the chances

Will I get broken back Oliver in a desert prison pit? If not, I'm not interested! ;p

[Starfish35]

30 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Heh. MG says that she's not a flashback or a Flashpoint effect. But then people construe the part about her not being Black Siren as a direct quote from MG, which isn't true. It seems to be what the author is saying, not MG. 

Not just that.  IIRC, the comment about not a flashback or Flashpoint was said about 508, not this episode. 

Which, I suppose, is a moot point since she is most likely BS, but still.  They're still misapplying the quote.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Starfish35

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, tv echo said:

-- On what ways we might see KC appear in Arrow outside of just flashbacks, WM: "I can tell you that we're really excited about having her back. You will see in the episodes where she appears - Episode 510 definitely, our midseason premiere. Keep your eyes out for that. We're so excited about getting to work with her again and her willingness to come back. It's one of the fun parts of the show. People can leave and get killed and you can still find new and crazy ways for them to come back. I can definitely tell you that there's a way we're going to bring her back and she's going to be alive and well.

Sigh. I hope she comes back only to be sent off to her own show. This is like a game of "Whack-A-Laurel" because she just keeps popping up randomly and annoying the crap out of me. 

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sigh. I hope she comes back only to be sent off to her own show. This is like a game of "Whack-A-Laurel" because she just keeps popping up randomly and annoying the crap out of me. 

I mean, she'll be appearing on all the shows for the second half, so she isn't sticking around on Arrow for long.