Spoiler Discussion Thread

[writersblock51]

I'm looking forward to, I think, Slade coming back. I really do love Manu Bennett when he's on the screen, especially when he's verbally and/or physically sparring with SA/Oliver.  He was another golden casting choice, IMO.  I hope his return is well written. I have a lot of faith that MB can deliver.

 

I hope Thea's storyline involves giving her the opportunity to make up her own mind rather than being manipulated, again, by other people. It does't have to take tons of screen time but I think showing her process everything that's happened and is happening would be interesting to watch. I think Willa Holland can handle it, too. How much will Thea learn about Oliver being gone, why he left and where he went?  And how does she find ANY of this out?

 

I'm surprised that there's been so little publicity in terms of photos of LL as BC made public.  It leads me to think that she won't be in costume in 3.10 or 3.11.  I'm still prepared to be furious if she's only wearing the costume to dupe Quentin.  We know that she's going to struggle, a lot, in the costume.  I still haven't decided which I find worse:

 

Insta-Buckle Canary

or Stumbling-Buckle Canary

 

I think this is a no-win situation. 

And it's in direct contrast, I feel, to what the potential is for Thea.  Here we have someone who murdered someone else, a beloved friend as well, NOT a villian, NOT in self defense.  The "I was drugged" reasoning is problematic because Laurel was drunk or drugged in S2 and there will be parallels drawn. 

 

On the other hand, Thea's potential for redemption is already on stronger ground because of Oliver's sacrifice. It's a double edged sword - he died to save her, how will the Team view her now?  But his 'death' could definitely motivate her to embrace helping people, turning away from Malcolm entirely, and even possibly being a part of taking him down for good.  She asked Oliver to not make her choose between him and Malcolm; he said he'd never do that.  By his sacrifcial death to save her, he's kind of put her in a position where she DOES have to make a choice now.  So who will she choose? 

Cue up the focused and determined Redemption Arc.  And HOW she goes about it will, I hope, be VERY different from how Laurel has been handling hers this season.  This is where their respective motivation matters.  I can root for Thea to become a hero because she wants to be worthy of the faith Oliver had in her.  I'm struggling to support Laurel because she seems interested in helping people a la Sara's way BUT her main goal is to kill/destroy whoever killed Sara, even if it means going outside the law to do it. 

[apinknightmare]

I'm surprised that there's been so little publicity in terms of photos of LL as BC made public.  It leads me to think that she won't be in costume in 3.10 or 3.11. 

 

She's definitely in costume in 3x10 - when the pics were released, that's when they said it would debut. And I think 3x11 is where we got the pic of her and Roy in the van. I don't think we've seen anything of her in the costume in 3x12 and beyond (though I could be wrong about that). 

 

Personally, I'd rather see her be Insta Canary. I have no desire to watch her fail more and/or get beat up. If they're going there, just go there and get it over with. I've watched how many of Laurel's journeys over the course of this show, and not a single one of them has interested me, so I doubt this one will either. 

 

It'll be interesting to see how the team interacts with Thea now, especially since she doesn't know she killed Sara, and she doesn't know Oliver left to fight Ra's to save her. Ugh, show. Stop keeping her in the dark.

[KirkB]

Personally, I'd rather see her be Insta Canary. I have no desire to watch her fail more and/or get beat up. If they're going there, just go there and get it over with. I've watched how many of Laurel's journeys over the course of this show, and not a single one of them has interested me, so I doubt this one will either.

 

 

This is pretty much what I have been saying all along. I have no interest in watched the Laurel Lance show so since they are determined to put her in the costume regardless of what anyone else thinks I wish they would just go ahead and get it over with. The sooner she has her mask and can fight the less time we have to waste watching her train. 

[tv echo]

I think I (and others) mentioned this before... but I can't get past the idiocy of making Laurel an ADA if the plan was to turn her into the Black Canary.  So during the day she's in court, arguing to the jury that they should find the defendant guilty and put him away for breaking the law, while at night she's a masked vigilante breaking the law.  It's utter hypocrisy.  At least if she had stayed a lawyer working for CNRI, she'd still be working for the unrepresented and trying to bring justice to the little guy.  She wouldn't be trying to convict other people for doing what she's doing. 

 

And yeah, I get that the cops are now okay with the Arrow and that Quentin, the police captain, is now working with the Arrow - so technically he's approving the Arrow's vigilante tactics.  So there's a little hypocrisy there, but at least Quentin's not in court making arguments about why the law must be upheld.  If Laurel had been a cop, there'd be less hypocrisy and she'd also have more training.

Edited December 19, 2014 by tv echo

[writersblock51]

Ugh, show. Stop keeping her in the dark.

 

But keeping people in the dark is what this show does, all the time.

 

Good points about Insta-Canary. Kind of like pulling a band-aid off.

 

I didn't realize that the BC costume photos we've seen were specified as being from 3.10. That stinks but it plays into the Insta-Canary theme.

 

So the show is going to try to do both? Insta-Canary only to have her become Stumbling Canary?    This can't be what came out of 'You know what would be GREAT?!?!' kind of talk.  My goodness, what does this show really think fans want to see? 

[KirkB]

I think I (and others) mentioned this before... but I can't get past the idiocy of making Laurel an ADA if the plan was to turn her into the Black Canary.  So during the day she's in court, arguing to the jury that they should find the defendant guilty and put him away for breaking the law, while at night she's a masked vigilante breaking the law.  It's utter hypocrisy.  At least if she had stayed a lawyer working for CNRI, she'd still be working for the unrepresented and trying to bring justice to the little guy.  She wouldn't be trying to convict other people for doing what she's doing.

 

Hypocrisy is nothing new for Laurel, but it's worse than that. CNRI would have been the perfect information source for her vigilantism. The kinds of people she was made aware of through her cases at CNRI were exactly the kind of people Oliver went after in season 1 and that the Canary could have been pursuing. Plus since she was one of the people who ran the place she could have more easily excused herself to duck into a closet and change clothes.

Edited December 19, 2014 by KirkB

[Orion]

And there is the catch 22 for me. I have no interest in watching Laurel go out and fail or in watching her train but if they do Insta-canary then she will be in the Arrow-cave working along side Team Arrow and I won't even have those scenes as something I enjoy. Whenever the screen cut to the exterior of the foundry I knew that I was about to be entertained by this scene because it would feature people I care about. If she's fighting with them I'll lose that.  Not to mention that it diminishes what Oliver and Sara went through. At this point the producers really can't win with me.

 

Side note reading the tweets that TV Echo posted in Behind the Scenes I came very close to throwing my laptop at Paul's tweet about filming another Lance Family scene.  Just stop show.

[Ariah]

Ok, but a Lance family scene in the current setup would mean only Quentin and Laurel, right? Dinah is probably not around, and Sara is most definitelly not around.

 

Unless we're having a flashback.

[catrox14]

I'm hoping the big payoff will be the realization that every stupid thing that's happened so far this season has been in Oliver's head since he hasn't yet recovered from being dosed by Vertigo in the season premiere.

Probably not though.

No joke. I've been wondering the same thing.

[statsgirl]

Wouldn't a Lance Family scene have to involve more than just Laurel and her father?  Because we've had a ton of those, especially in the first two seasons, since they're the only Lances who are regulars on the show.  The only way I can see it being a Lance Family scene without Dinah or flashbacks is if it's Laurel and Quentin at Sara's graveside.  (Still would prefer it if Sara is not really dead thought.)

 

On the other hand, Thea's potential for redemption is already on stronger ground because of Oliver's sacrifice. It's a double edged sword - he died to save her, how will the Team view her now?  But his 'death' could definitely motivate her to embrace helping people, turning away from Malcolm entirely, and even possibly being a part of taking him down for good.  She asked Oliver to not make her choose between him and Malcolm; he said he'd never do that.  By his sacrifcial death to save her, he's kind of put her in a position where she DOES have to make a choice now.  So who will she choose? 

Cue up the focused and determined Redemption Arc.  And HOW she goes about it will, I hope, be VERY different from how Laurel has been handling hers this season.  This is where their respective motivation matters.  I can root for Thea to become a hero because she wants to be worthy of the faith Oliver had in her.  I'm struggling to support Laurel because she seems interested in helping people a la Sara's way BUT her main goal is to kill/destroy whoever killed Sara, even if it means going outside the law to do it. 

 

All this sounds very good, and it's beyond time for Thea to have a good arc. The problem is, aside from Oliver because the show is about him, they don't seem to really care about anyone else's inner motivations and redemption arcs other than Laurel, and we've seen what feels like an endless number of those from her.  Look at Roy, all the teasing over the summer about Roy finding out he killed a cop and how it was going to affect him, and it was over in one episode, in which he got a total of 6 minutes of screentime (I counted), and it was mostly about Laurel defending Ted Grant.

 

Laurel gets more individual storytime than anyone else, including Diggle and Felicity.  I really hope that this shot at becoming Black Canary is their last kick at the can trying to make Laurel happen because everything they have tried up to now has failed and it's taken up storytime that other characters could really have used.  So add me in that while I will resent her being InstaCanary, it's better than seeing her train, and try, and fail, and try again, and be inspired by Sara's vision, and try again and succeed.

 

Hypocrisy is nothing new for Laurel, but it's worse than that. CNRI would have been the perfect information source for her vigilantism. The kinds of people she was made aware of through her cases at CNRI were exactly the kind of people Oliver went after in season 1 and that the Canary could have been pursuing. Plus since she was one of the people who ran the place she could have more easily excused herself to duck into a closet and change clothes.

And it would have justified what she was doing as a vigilante, that if she couldn't get them justice in court, she was going to do it outside of it. It would have been a better reason than because she's mad someone killed Sara, especially since Laurel knew Sara was involved in a dangerous crowd.

 

 I have no interest in watching Laurel go out and fail or in watching her train but if they do Insta-canary then she will be in the Arrow-cave working along side Team Arrow and I won't even have those scenes as something I enjoy. Whenever the screen cut to the exterior of the foundry I knew that I was about to be entertained by this scene because it would feature people I care about. If she's fighting with them I'll lose that.  Not to mention that it diminishes what Oliver and Sara went through. At this point the producers really can't win with me.

Repeating this because it's exactly how I fell about it.  There always seems to be a lot of Laurel in the episodes, but at least before this season, the lair was a Laurel-free zone.

[catrox14]

I want Laurel to fail epically. I think she has romantic notions about vigilantism. I don't think she truly grasps just how awful it was for Sara and Oliver and that the choices they were compelled to make were not romantic or nice. She is caught up in a pretty name, and a jacket and the ego of it all IMO. It will take a hard lesson for her to realize that boxing lessons and a mask do not superhero make.

[Happy Harpy]

 

But keeping people in the dark is what this show does, all the time.

Except, you know, on Oliver's secret identity. 

 

Considering how cliché S 3-A was imo, I'm dreading, dreading, I tell you, an amnesia storyline. Oliver forgetting about Felicity and Diggle, and back in Island S1's frame of mind -including picture-worshipping....and I just made myself vaguely nauseous.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[writersblock51]

I want Laurel to fail epically. I think she has romantic notions about vigilantism. I don't think she truly grasps just how awful it was for Sara and Oliver and that the choices they were compelled to make were not romantic or nice. She is caught up in a pretty name, and a jacket and the ego of it all IMO. It will take a hard lesson for her to realize that boxing lessons and a mask do not superhero make.

 

I think that's what one of the EPs was alluding to (I can't remember which one) recently - that Laurel will find out that a mask and jacket don't make one a hero.

 

The part that I put in bold - I actually thought that could apply to KC as well.  I still have a lot of trouble with her perception, and ultimately how she plays the role, of what being LL as BC (and inheriting it from Sara) means and came about.

Except, you know, on Oliver's secret identity. 

 

Considering how cliché S 3-A was imo, I'm dreading, dreading, I tell you, an amnesia storyline. Oliver forgetting about Felicity and Diggle, and back in Island S1's frame of mind -including picture-worshipping....and I just made myself vaguely nauseous.

 

If this happens, I expect critics and fans to cry Foul! very very loudly and to even flee.

[statsgirl]

I'm afraid that having Laurel fail when she first goes out as the Black Canary is just for the purpose of lampshading that it's too soon for her.  And having done that and her three episode fail arc, in 3x13 she's going to have a "come to Sara" moment, aided by the Vertigo vision of Sara, and break through that wall and succeed, so that by 3x14, she's be in full BC mode.  The Laurel/BC fans will be happy, and the rest of us will be saying "Thank God that's over."

 

It's a cheat, but I'm afraid that's how they'll do it.

 

 

Considering how cliché S 3-A was imo, I'm dreading, dreading, I tell you, an amnesia storyline. Oliver forgetting about Felicity and Diggle, and back in Island S1's frame of mind -including picture-worshipping....and I just made myself vaguely nauseous.

It's possible, but I'm less afraid of this happening because while the show tries to see Laurel, Roy and Ray as superheroes, what it has got going for them is the Oliver/Diggle/Felicity Team Arrow.  To lose that while trying BC, Arsenal and ATOM would be beyond stupid. (Not saying it's not going to happen, just hoping someone at WB or CW has some sense.)

Edited December 19, 2014 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

From the spoilers thread:

 

 

 

Please tell me anything about Slade’s return to Arrow! — Tim
Burning questions will be answered! “Everyone’s been asking: How does he feed himself?” executive producer Marc Guggenheim says. “You’re going to get an answer to that question. He loomed so large in season 2 that his return in episode 14 really makes it feel incredibly epic. You’ll see why it’s very appropriate for us to revisit Slade Wilson in episode 14 when you see the end of episode 13.”

 

So, what happens at the end of 13? Is it something to do with A.R.G.U.S. and he dispatched to deal with some threat? Or is he coming for Felicity (because you know he wants to, haha)? 

[Genki]

From the spoilers thread:

 

 

So, what happens at the end of 13? Is it something to do with A.R.G.U.S. and he dispatched to deal with some threat? Or is he coming for Felicity (because you know he wants to, haha)? 

 

I really hope there is Slade/Felicity interaction, the possibilities intrigue me.

 

I find it interesting that Slade (and Manu's) return is being spoiled, I think it is to off-set the potential viewer loss for 3.11 - 3.13 (I don't count 3.10 because the unspoiled don't know about the Oliver-lite shenanigans that will occur, and I really think 3.11 & 3.12 are going to be Dreadful). It totally worked!!

 

Besides Felicity and Slade, I want to see how he is post Mirakuru, is he over shadow, does he still hate Oliver and swear vengeance on him, how does he gets fed on that Argus island prison?

 

I'm dying for Oliver/Slade maybe an uneasy alliance, I hope it's not a suicide squad thing, just yet, because I want lots of Slade and as much I like Deadshot, I want the come back episode to be focused on Slade. Although the return is not meant to be because of Oliver or Slade, I'm starting to look forward to some future episodes....fool me twice, shame on me!!

[statsgirl]

Considering how they use Felicity to get people to like characters, I wouldn't put it past them to put Felicity in danger so that the Black Canary can save her.

 

(just kidding, I hope)

 

I wonder if it's something to do with Sara, since Caity Lotz will be in ep 313.  

 

This is the third episode of sweeps?

Edited December 19, 2014 by statsgirl

[Guest]

I am so looking forward to Slade's return. Manu is the best. He had such a strong presence last season. I can't wait to see what he does. I'm guessing he might have a scene with Felicity but that's maybe my wishful thinking. I'll be happy whatever happens. I really miss Slade.

 

Is he just in one episode though?

[BkWurm1]

When Oliver returns to SC and finds out that Laurel has been going out in the field as the BC with minimal boxing training, his protective instincts are going to compel him to train Laurel (in addition to Roy) in offensive techniques and weapons - since he can't stop her from going out.

 

Or maybe he'll continue to refuse to help her?  Maybe he can't stop her but he doesn't have to have a hand in what happens to her. 

 

As much as I hate KC as Black Canary, Black Canary can NOT be someone that Oliver ever trains.  If he took her under his wing even after she's gone out and gotten some boxing lessons, she will still be his protégé or apprentice and that just can't be and I'm not even a comic book reader.  She can't exist as both BC and Oliver's student. 

 

I suppose they could spin it that he's not training her, just letting her hone her "skills" along side him but I still won't buy it.

 

I guess the one good thing that could come of KC going full Canary and brought into the Cave, then maybe she could be reduced to Roy level of interaction.  Let her hang in the background while the gownups sort things out, then go into the field do some kicks and fade back into the background. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Considering how they use Felicity to get people to like characters, I wouldn't put it past them to put Felicity in danger so that the Black Canary can save her.

 

(just kidding, I hope)

 

 

STOP THAT! Don't even release that into the ether where clueless showrunners might get a whiff of it :P Besides, they already did the whole Felicity/Black Canary saving each other thing in that episode we will not speak of. I would really hate it if they did it again.

[calliope1975]

And it would have justified what she was doing as a vigilante, that if she couldn't get them justice in court, she was going to do it outside of it. It would have been a better reason than because she's mad someone killed Sara, especially since Laurel knew Sara was involved in a dangerous crowd.

 

I hate that Dinah endorsed Laurel's revenge boner, but it brings up a question for me. Sara (and Oliver, et. al.) are involved in very dangerous line of "work" that could result in their death at anytime. Do you then get revenge for everyone's death? The way the show killed off Sara was shady and a plot point and I have no respect for the why and how, but if Sara had been on a mission to assassinate whomever Ra's sent her after, and she died, would Laurel still have the drive to become a vigilante? I'm not expressing myself well and I don't think this is the place anyway. 

 

As for Manu and Slade, I am looking forward to his return. I also want to see him interact with Felicity. Is he harboring a grudge against her? How's he feeling about getting Boomerang as a cellmate? I hope the writers give him better motivation this time.

[Happy Harpy]

 

It's possible, but I'm less afraid of this happening because while the show tries to see Laurel, Roy and Ray as superheroes, what it has got going for them is the Oliver/Diggle/Felicity Team Arrow.  To lose that while trying BC, Arsenal and ATOM would be beyond stupid. (Not saying it's not going to happen, just hoping someone at WB or CW has some sense.)

Indeed, I hope someone has sense somewhere. But again, this is the show that had a popular (and better imo) character killed in favor of a polarizing one, and in spite of the previsible backlash, sooo...I'm afraid.

 

 

As for Manu and Slade, I am looking forward to his return. I also want to see him interact with Felicity. Is he harboring a grudge against her? How's he feeling about getting Boomerang as a cellmate? I hope the writers give him better motivation this time.

 

Besides Felicity and Slade, I want to see how he is post Mirakuru, is he over shadow, does he still hate Oliver and swear vengeance on him, how does he gets fed on that Argus island prison?

Me too, and it would be the opportunity to right the mistakes made in S2 with Slade, imo.

I didn't understand the last Slade/Oliver scene in the S2 finale, because from what I remember, the falldown between them began after the former was injected with Mirakuru, only. I wish the writers would use it to scrap all the nonsense including his attraction to Shado, saying it was a kind of drug-induced psychosis or whatnot and start fresh. This would explain the nonsense (imo) of his motivations last year -I'm still admirative as to how M.Bennett managed to make a believable villain in spite of it.

It would be interesting because I'd like to see how Slade would deal with what he'd done then, once back into his right mind; certainly it would be in a different way from Oliver. Finally, I don't think that Oliver can ever forget the image of Slade killing Moira, and this is the only way I could see him being able to work with Slade -he said something along the lines that people under the influence of drug weren't responsible for their actions, IIRC, around Thea's Vertigo incident.

Otherwise, I can only see them make Slade a one-note villain and it would be such a waste of M.Bennett's talent and of the Oliver/Slade relationship, which was established through a year of flashback and was for me the best thing about the Island S1. Slade used to care enough for Oliver to get hurt while trying to help him, against his principles, when Ivo attacked their plane/home. How do you deal with your friends after the unthinkable happened?

In this respect, it also could be extremely interesting imo because Thea of course must resent the hell out of Slade, but if she really killed Sara, she'll be in Slade's shoes when facing Sin...and the writers love parallels. Yes, I'm still naive enough to imagine that Thea will have a meaningful storyline one day.

 

And yes, I really hope that Slade will interact with Felicity, too. This was one of my wishes for S3 after the finale. She was the one who took him down, after all. If the writers allow it, it should make for great scenes.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[Belinea]

So, in this new pictures SA posted of himself in costume (with Santa and everything) is there anything different about the suit? I can't really tell. 

[apinknightmare]

So, in this new pictures SA posted of himself in costume (with Santa and everything) is there anything different about the suit? I can't really tell. 

 

No, it looks the same to me. Looks like whoever said it up thread (sorry, I can't remember who it was!) was right - he didn't want to spoil his Flash upgrades since the ep hadn't aired yet.

[dtissagirl]

No, it looks the same to me. Looks like whoever said it up thread (sorry, I can't remember who it was!) was right - he didn't want to spoil his Flash upgrades since the ep hadn't aired yet.

Is Stephen as bad with dates as he is with math? 'Cause that night shoot happened the day [well, night] *after* the crossover aired. :)

[apinknightmare]

Is Stephen as bad with dates as he is with math? 'Cause that night shoot happened the day [well, night] *after* the crossover aired. :)

 

Oh, I didn't know that. Well, I mean...there isn't anything at all different on it, unless he took whatever it was off for that picture with Santa. So maybe he is?

[statsgirl]

And yes, I really hope that Slade will interact with Felicity, too. This was one of my wishes for S3 after the finale. She was the one who took him down, after all. If the writers allow it, it should make for great scenes.

It will be a test if the Mirakuru is really gone because pre-Mirakuru Slade would have respected her for  having the guts to do that.

 

It's an interesting set of parallels -- Roy, Slade and Thea all committed atrocities while under the influence of drugs, Roy to a stranger, Slade to someone very important to Thea, and Thea to someone important to herself and Roy -- and it could be a good storyline to see how they and the Team deal with the repercussions.  Will we get to see it?  I doubt it, there's more work for BC and the ATOM.

[Happy Harpy]

From the Hopes and Fears thread (since this is speculation on the spoilery part)

Now, yes, we've been told that the next four episodes will have a nice little Laurel arc which will include Laurel putting on the costume.  But we've also been told that the next four episodes are not Laurel centric at all and in fact feature Roy and Team Arrow. 

Imo, the second part is damage control/fanbaiting: As you showed in your post, @quarks, Laurel doesn't seem to bring the ratings in and here at least, many people have expressed their disinterest in/intention to skip Laurel-centric episodes. I found M.Guggenheim's reaction/backpedaling pretty disingenious, with his "where does this Laurel trilogy idea comes from"...er, from your fellow executive producer?

That's why I don't believe a word of what TPTB say anymore, especially regarding Laurel and her importance on the show. I think that indeed, Roy will be heavily featured (and I agree with you that he can't carry the show). I'm not sure at all that Team Arrow will be featured in a satisfying way, from what transpired so far -Felicity not looking for Oliver? Foul!. Laurel's level of importance/creentime in those episodes is, imo, anyone's guess.

 

 

Will we get to see it?  I doubt it, there's more work for BC and the ATOM.

The spoilers make me so angry. For me, Laurel as the BC and Ray/Atom are plot tumors and I won't get to see them either, because I won't watch. I know I sound like a sulky baby, but I blame TPTB for it because they created a show full of potential and they don't exploit it, at least it doesn't seem they do when I read the speculations done here for the first part of the season, and what was really done.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[Danny Franks]

The spoilers make me so angry. For me, Laurel as the BC and Ray/Atom are plot tumors and I won't get to see them either, because I won't watch. I know I sound like a sulky baby, but I blame TPTB for it because they created a show full of potential and they don't exploit it, at least it doesn't seem they do when I read the speculations done here for the first part of the season, and what was really done.

 

Not sulky at all. It's the job of television writers and producers to give fans something they enjoy. It's not the job of fans to watch whatever trash the writers spew out. The obligation is on them, and as far as I can tell, it's an obligation these writers are failing to meet.

 

I decided not to watch earlier in the summer, when I saw the love triangle spoilers and Brandon Routh rehashing Daniel Shaw, and Laurel still around and apparently learning to fight. Any slight inclination I had to give things a chance was shot with arrows and thrown in a dumpster by the end of the season opener (still not seen that scene, and I never will, thankfully). They've blown it, quite honestly. They were handed a goldmine, creatively speaking, and all they've managed to dig out of it have been a couple of medium sized nuggets, and a whole load of shit.

 

That's what's most frustrating. That so many fans can see all these opportunities that those professional writers either didn't ever see, or passed up on in favour of things that are so much less interesting. Anyway, this isn't spoiler talk, so I'll leave it at that.

 

What is spoiler talk is this: Can you imagine how fucking dreadful a show starring Brandon Routh and Katie Cassidy as vigilante crimefighters (or as anything, really) would be? Holy shitsnacks, that sounds like the sort of 'entertainment' that would be shown on the screen at a suicide booth, designed to hurry people up. You lot had better pray, for the sake of your mental health, that the showrunners aren't lying their arses off when they say there's a lot of Team Arrow in the next batch of episodes.

[tv echo]

Sometimes I think that, before each season, the EPs come up with the season-ending finale and then work backwards through the season.

 

So for Season 3, they decided 'we're going to end up with multiple superheroes saving the city' - so working backwards we introduce Ray Palmer (and his ATOM suit) and we put Laurel into costume as the Black Canary.  But wait, she's not ready - and Roy's not ready - to be superheroes.  Okay, so we take Oliver/Arrow out of the equation and have him gone for several episodes, causing other 'heroes' to step up.  But wouldn't Team Arrow look for him?  Not if they think he's dead.  So have him killed by Ra's.  But why?  Well, kill off Sara (who Ra's now treasures for some reason) - which also puts Laurel into BC costume.  And don't forget Thea!  Yeah, we got JB signed on, so bring them back to Starling City.  I got it - make it Malcolm's plan to use Thea to kill Sara - fans'll never see that twist coming!  Yeah, that'll work.

[Belinea]

I believe the season ending will have Oliver realizing that his friends and family (and others) managed to somewhat protect the city without him and therefore his Arrow identity is not as important as he thought. The hood can be worn by someone else. (In this case Diggle) Everyone can be a vigilante on this show and therefore the Arrow can be Oliver. Do I have to like how they get there? No, I don't but since I do believe that the show always works towards season finales it won't be to hard to skip a few episodes and tune in later.  The only thing I am actually really curious about is how Oliver comes back. Because they killed him in such a brutal fashion that I want them to resurrect him in a spectacular way. I hope he is back by 3x13/3x14. I wonder how long they will drag it out. 

 

I expect Diggle to wear the costume, Roy to step up and Felicity to be sad and mad and basically go 'hell hath no fury' on someone. No idea how Laurel finds a tailor for her leather and buckle combination. 

[statsgirl]

I believe the season ending will have Oliver realizing that his friends and family (and others) managed to somewhat protect the city without him and therefore his Arrow identity is not as important as he thought. The hood can be worn by someone else. (In this case Diggle) Everyone can be a vigilante on this show and therefore the Arrow can be Oliver. Do I have to like how they get there? No, I don't but since I do believe that the show always works towards season finales it won't be to hard to skip a few episodes and tune in later. 

Do I have to like how they get there is more iffy for me because if I dislike it enough, my connection to the show will be weakened.  That happened in 2B but the finale was enough to get it back.  But I had the spoilers and 2A to count on, so I was thinking 2B was an anomaly.

 

Now I know it's not, because 3A was just like it.  So if this is a pattern, that they are some episodes I wish I hadn't seen and then some really good stuff, my intention to come back again after finales, whether they are mid or end of season, gets weakened each time.

 

An equally problematic issue is what it does to the show that the hood can be worn by someone else.  I don't mind that happening in the future (I love the Legacy fic by ash818) but I'm not ready for that on the show.  To have Diggle wearing the hood, and he, Roy, Laurel and Ray do Oliver's job while he's gone, ending with Oliver specifically not being needed to be the Arrow, weakens the show dreadfully in my opinion. Possibly fatally.

[Orion]

To have Diggle wearing the hood, and he, Roy, Laurel and Ray do Oliver's job while he's gone, ending with Oliver specifically not being needed to be the Arrow, weakens the show dreadfully in my opinion. Possibly fatally.

 

I agree with this so much. I adore Diggle but he has his role on the Team it is not to replace Oliver. One of the things that makes me so angry is that the core 3 all are irreplaceable imo no one can fill their shoes and that's what makes them critical to the story.  No one has gone through what Oliver did. I mean what's even the point of sitting through flashback after flashback of Oliver's hell if the JV squad plus Diggle can get the job done just as well.

 

There is a part of me, call it being naïve or resigned or delusional, that thinks that just can't be how this plays out. Because if the spoilers are right it is like paying full price for a ticket to see (insert your professional sports team of choice) and finding out the band will be suiting up in their place.  

 

*announcer's voice* Now starting in place of the professional members of Team Arrow, please welcome to the field Black Canary with her 3 months of boxing and grating personality, practically mute Arsenal and his amazing flips and Ray the slightly creepy businessman who has a neat hologram and a sad story.

 

The producers can't be this stupid. But I'm definitely fearful that they are.

[Guest]

I'm hoping the intention of three costumed heroes by the end of the season is not to show that anyone can wear the hood but that Oliver is not alone and doesn't have to be consumed by his goal of protecting Starling City. If there's a greater support network there (Arsenal, BC, and the Atom) then he can be two people. If he can rely on others and know that the safety of the city isn't just in his hands, he can have a life with Felicity and Thea as Oliver and not be so wrapped up in being the Arrow. 

 

I see the team trying to carry on with his mission after they find out he 'died' but I don't think it will be the same. They're going to want to show that they need Oliver as much as he needs them otherwise what the hell is the point? 

Edited December 21, 2014 by Guest

[Belinea]

 

I see the team trying to carry on with his mission after they find out he 'died' but I don't think it will be the same.

Didn't DR say that the void will be felt? I hope you are correct with your speculation. At least we can hope that after we made it through Laurel's trilogy Oliver will be back. 

[Guest]

Didn't DR say that the void will be felt? I hope you are correct with your speculation. At least we can hope that after we made it through Laurel's trilogy Oliver will be back. 

 

I don't know but I hope so. It would be crazy to show the team functioning properly without Oliver there. They need to show that he's important. There's only so long Diggle can go out with the hood on before they realize enough is enough. I want to see them trying but clearly struggling, like 'we're doing what we need to do but it's not the same.' The void needs to be felt otherwise they run the risk of suggesting the show could survive without its main character and that's just crazy talk. I'm not here for anyone else's story but Oliver's. 

[statsgirl]

*announcer's voice* Now starting in place of the professional members of Team Arrow, please welcome to the field Black Canary with her 3 months of boxing and grating personality, practically mute Arsenal and his amazing flips and Ray the slightly creepy businessman who has a neat hologram and a sad story.

I tried to read that out loud to the other person in the room with me, but I couldn't because I was laughing so hard.

 

 

Didn't DR say that the void will be felt? I hope you are correct with your speculation. At least we can hope that after we made it through Laurel's trilogy Oliver will be back. 

At that time, DR had only seen a few scripts.  I can believe the void is felt at the beginning, but how will things be after Oliver's been gone for a while and Team Arrow is functioning without him?

 

It's a big temptation to imbue other characters with the things that make your lead character special, the fighting, the angst, the being a superhero.  I keep remembering what happened on House.  Viewers loved how snarky and self-centered he was, and the producers were so delighted that gradually they brought on other characters who were self-centered, turned others the same way (Cuddy) and got rid of the rest until everyone character but one (Wilson) was snarky and self-centered.  In the end, the outstanding character they had created the show around was just like all the rest of the characters on the show.

 

I hope Berlanti is smarter than that.

[BkWurm1]

I'm hoping the intention of three costumed heroes by the end of the season is not to show that anyone can wear the hood but that Oliver is not alone and doesn't have to be consumed by his goal of protecting Starling City. If there's a greater support network there (Arsenal, BC, and the Atom) then he can be two people. If he can rely on others and know that the safety of the city isn't just in his hands, he can have a life with Felicity and Thea as Oliver and not be so wrapped up in being the Arrow. 

 

I see the team trying to carry on with his mission after they find out he 'died' but I don't think it will be the same. They're going to want to show that they need Oliver as much as he needs them otherwise what the hell is the point? 

I think whatever combination of rag tag stop gap they put together while Oliver is gone will show heavy signs of wear and tear but that then later (sadly) BC will improve (sigh) and then Ray will show up in his fancy suit that will impress Oliver or make him think that he isn't needed but then that will be the story that is explored in 4, just how much Oliver personally is needed and then from that, they can finally get Oliver to find his balance and then in year 5 perhaps we finally get a happier Oliver more close to his traditional comic persona (while over on Flash, Barry has a dark year -sigh). 

[ostentatious]

Thematically speaking, the one thing Oliver can bring to the table that no one else can is probably going to be a real passion for (the city, the business, Felicity). In the premiere, she says just that to him. He has passion for QC, and that's why he should fight for his place there, even though on paper he is not the strongest choice, both on credentials and on past performance.

Same with the city and Felicity. Oliver will probably feel replaceable like she did when Sara was able to perform some of her duties. But Felicity isn't there just to execute a function, she's there because she is who she is. And Oliver will look around at others doing a fine job with the business and his two cities (hah) and wonder why he should impose himself there. The answer is he should impose himself because there's real love there, and there's real value in that.

You can't just accept things, Oliver.

So I think his dilemma will turn out to be that alllll these heroes at first says to him "I am redundant" and he thinks he isn't wanted or needed, but will figure out how to process this correctly. He isn't alone, he can rely on others, he can be part of a larger team, and he can actually have that life he knows he wants.

[apinknightmare]

I agree with most of what you wrote, ostentatious, except for the part about Oliver having passion for QC. As far as QC goes, all we've ever seen is that it's an obligation to him; one he couldn't even be bothered with half the time, and that he gave up without much of a fight. If he does try to get the company back, I think we need to actually see him actively caring about it. He hasn't really done that so far.

ETA: I know Felicity said he cared about the people who work there, and I'm sure he does-he's not a heartless bastard, but he hasn't really done anything at all to show us that. Quite the opposite, actually.

Edited December 22, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Password]

ETA: I know Felicity said he cared about the people who work there, and I'm sure he does-he's not a heartless bastard, but he hasn't really done anything at all to show us that. Quite the opposite, actually.

Which makes me wonder what he'll do to get it back. Bring in Walter? Concerning Felicity and Oliver and even Thea and Oliver, there's been enough bread crumbs to see he's getting there with them. But QC, it's like he's literally forgotten about his family's legacy. Ray is doing a great job, what exactly is Oliver going to offer? Edited December 22, 2014 by Limbo

[BkWurm1]

I was going to suggest that maybe as Ray gets into the hero business that maybe he'd want to turn over some of his duties to Oliver but the more I thought of it, I think even a part time Palmer as a CEO is more qualified than a full time Oliver, lol.   

[ostentatious]

I agree with most of what you wrote, ostentatious, except for the part about Oliver having passion for QC. As far as QC goes, all we've ever seen is that it's an obligation to him; one he couldn't even be bothered with half the time, and that he gave up without much of a fight. If he does try to get the company back, I think we need to actually see him actively caring about it. He hasn't really done that so far.

ETA: I know Felicity said he cared about the people who work there, and I'm sure he does-he's not a heartless bastard, but he hasn't really done anything at all to show us that. Quite the opposite, actually.

But I think that QC is intrinsically connected to the Queen name. I think that Oliver feels hesitant about that legacy, but I don't think it means he doesn't care about it. I don't think he can just let QC go. I think it means something. Really being Oliver Queen, IMO, does mean really being the Mr. Queen of Queen Consolidated. Even though there is probably little more terrifying to Oliver than to think of replacing his father.

 

However, I think that it's connected to Felicity, a future Queen who actually *can* run it. The life I think he would ideally want would include the family legacy/QC, and she's the key to that. I would say Thea but I don't think they're aiming Thea that direction. I think it's Felicity.

Edited December 22, 2014 by ostentatious

[Chaser]

I kinda think he forgot all about QC until 3.07 when it was rebranded. Even then though, I think that was more about a glimpse into the life he wanted back in 3.01. QC back, Felicity with him. I wonder if the flashback to his parents when he 'died' is going to serve as another reminder that he has a family legacy in Starling City he can keep alive.

 

He can own the company without running it and I think that's what will happen. Personally, I would prefer Oliver regain the company and then bring Walter in to run the day to day operations. Felicity is amazing, but I actually would prefer she not run the company. I would like to see her in charge of Applied Sciences.

[wonderwall]

I'm kind of hoping once Ray leaves or whatever, Felicity will be the one to change it to Queen Inc. Idk I just thought she was way too excited/happy about changing the name of the company.

[Chiny11]

I'm kind of hoping once Ray leaves or whatever, Felicity will be the one to change it to Queen Inc. Idk I just thought she was way too excited/happy about changing the name of the company.

Yep, I agree! She "seemed" way too excited. I side-eyed her reaction during the "re-branding' press conference.

Honestly, I don't know what the writers were/are going for with this whole Ray/Felicity story. I hope they don't throw Felicity under the bus. I will be mad.

[apinknightmare]

But I think that QC is intrinsically connected to the Queen name. I think that Oliver feels hesitant about that legacy, but I don't think it means he doesn't care about it. I don't think he can just let QC go. I think it means something. Really being Oliver Queen, IMO, does mean really being the Mr. Queen of Queen Consolidated. Even though there is probably little more terrifying to Oliver than to think of replacing his father.

However, I think that it's connected to Felicity, a future Queen who actually *can* run it. The life I think he would ideally want would include the family legacy/QC, and she's the key to that. I would say Thea but I don't think they're aiming Thea that direction. I think it's Felicity.

I'm not saying he doesn't care about it, it's just that the show has done a terrible job of showing that it was ever anything more than a) an obligation to him and b) something he thought he should get back because it belonged to his family and he squandered it away.

[statsgirl]

I'm curious ... I tried to move this conversation to the Oliver Queen thread because it's not about spoilers any more but no one followed.

 

I think that speaks to how hard it is to change an on-going conversation to another thread, but I'm wondering why it's so.

[apinknightmare]

I'm curious ... I tried to move this conversation to the Oliver Queen thread because it's not about spoilers any more but no one followed.

I think that speaks to how hard it is to change an on-going conversation to another thread, but I'm wondering why it's so.

Ah, I didn't even know anyone had responded elsewhere.

[Starfish35]

I'm curious ... I tried to move this conversation to the Oliver Queen thread because it's not about spoilers any more but no one followed.

I think that speaks to how hard it is to change an on-going conversation to another thread, but I'm wondering why it's so.

If you're going to move a topic, it helps to quote the post you're replying to and then say something like "responding in Oliver Queen thread." That way people know to go to that thread for the response. Not everyone follows every thread....I don't follow the relationships thread and most of the character threads, for example.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Starfish35