Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Morrigan2575]

Barry doing the Salmon Ladder looked cheesy. I'd also say the drastic change in attitude/tone will be jarring to many viewers.

[Chaser]

I want Caitlyn to be like "That's impressive." And Felicity to be like "You're missing the point."

 

Not a fan of Barry on the Salmon Ladder, looks a bit ridiculous to me.

 

Looking forward to The Flash portion more than the Arrow part.

[Danny Franks]

What, so now they're even regressing back to 'Oliver takes things too far and is generally too grim!dark for his friends to accept'? Didn't they deal with that shit when he decided he wanted to be a hero?

[statsgirl]

And they did it with Barry already in Three Ghosts when he was disappointed in how not-hero-like Oliver was.

 

I guess the people watching The Flash haven't seen it yet, and Barry hasn't seen it to this extent.  But I'm not happy how much of a douche Oliver is this season.

 

I'm hoping Barry doing the salmon ladder ends up looking better than in the clip because right now it makes Sally look tacky.

 

 

I am really curious to see when they will bring Ray in because they want to do his origin story aswell. (Or so it seems) But in order to do that he would have to be in contact with the other characters at some point. Or have a valid reason why he wants to be a vigilante as well. Sometimes it seems as though everyone just wants to be a vigilante. :-) 

I guess all the cool kids want to be vigilantes this year. I wonder if it's going to translate into real life stuff as well.  NCIS did an episode about real people who dress up in costumes to fight crime in their area, apparently it's a thing.

 

I'm okay with seeing the Atom's origin story, but I think they should limit it to one origin story a year, otherwise there isn't enough time to do it properly or Oliver gets pushed aside.  There wasn't time to do Roy's with Sara's running at the same time and so Roy ends up being a tack-on. I don't want that to happen with Ray because the emphasis is on Laurel.

[Belinea]

 

What, so now they're even regressing back to 'Oliver takes things too far and is generally too grim!dark for his friends to accept'? Didn't they deal with that shit when he decided he wanted to be a hero?

I think they want to emphasize that he is having a really difficult time holding onto his humanity. (Wasn't there a spoiler that has Oliver admitting to Barry that he feels like he is losing the Oliver Queen side of himself) While I do understand his struggle due to losing some things that made him Oliver Queen (his family, his home, the company, Felicity),  they sometimes overdo it with the point they are trying to make. In my opinion he has struggled but not to the extent that he'd go back to S1 Oliver but it seems as though that is what they are trying to bring across. 

[SleepDeprived]

I usually am impressed/understanding of the FX on The Flash, especially for a CW show, but Barry doing the salmon ladder is ridiculously cheesy. Also, kind of dickish. I hope that scene comes off more humorous than the promo, though (through Felicity, Caitlin, Cisco, and Oliver's reactions). I think showing off one's superpowers is fine but showing-up others' achievements through hard work by using one's superpowers is unfair. And if Barry's doing the ladder because of his 'who's the better superhero' rivalry with Oliver then it's petty. Now, if Barry was just curious about Sally then that's cool but he didn't need to humblebrag that he "doesn't see what's so hard about it." You have superpowers, Barry, don't be arrogant.

 

On the same note, does Barry have super strength? I know he can punch really hard or push heavy objects out of the way after he's gained enough momentum, horizontally, but doing the salmon ladder entails a lot of upper body strength, which I didn't think Barry had. Is he vibrating his arm/core muscles so much that he is able to propel himself vertically? Clearly, I have gone off the deep end if my mind is wandering as to the physics of super human abilities.

[NumberCruncher]

I had the same thought, @SleepDeprived. It doesn't make sense that Barry could do the salmon ladder like that. What's the point of having Iris point out how much bigger Oliver's arms are (implying how much more physical strength Oliver has) if they're just going to now diminish/belittle that by having Barry do something so key to Oliver's physical regimen like it's nothing at all? The team over on The Flash has mentioned Barry doesn't have super strength only super speed so it's a bit ridiculous and unnecessary.

[Password]

Yeeeah not too keen on what they're doing with Oliver. Probably one of those wait and see things I'm terribly fond of.

[TanyaKay]

May be Caitlin asked about it and Barry said he could try and Oliver went all, "no son, you cannot do it, it is difficult." And then Barry did it with his super speed and was all casual about it that it was no big deal. Why everyone is so willing to write him off as a whiney brat. Barry is a puppy, he should be treated like one.

[Sunshine]

Once again the dialogue tease was Felicity. She uttered the phrase about there's a lot of sweat (or whatever it was) in that scene.

[Genki]

On the same note, does Barry have super strength? I know he can punch really hard or push heavy objects out of the way after he's gained enough momentum, horizontally, but doing the salmon ladder entails a lot of upper body strength, which I didn't think Barry had. Is he vibrating his arm/core muscles so much that he is able to propel himself vertically? Clearly, I have gone off the deep end if my mind is wandering as to the physics of super human abilities.

 

I think it is the momentum which Barry can build up, through his super speed.

 

That effect looked super cheesy....Barry the point of the Salmon ladder is to do it at normal speed, topless (sweaty is optional), in front of Felicity. I hope it comes across and a slight mocking of Oliver, I love when he is affectionately teased, about shit he take seriously.

 

Between Ray Palmer and Barry I'm really missing Oliver/Sally. (Is Sally a parallel for Felicity????)

 

 

I had the same thought, @SleepDeprived. It doesn't make sense that Barry could do the salmon ladder like that. What's the point of having Iris point out how much bigger Oliver's arms are (implying how much more physical strength Oliver has) if they're just going to now diminish/belittle that by having Barry do something so key to Oliver's physical regimen like it's nothing at all? The team over on The Flash has mentioned Barry doesn't have super strength only super speed so it's a bit ridiculous and unnecessary.

 

 

Since the 2-parter ends in Arrow I think they will show that Oliver is going to win in Arrow vs Flash. You don't need super speed or a super suit to make you a super hero.

 

Oliver needs a win of some sort, this season is way too down on him for my taste.

[writersblock51]

The more the season progresses - and keeping the spoilers in mind for the next 4-5 episodes - I have to say, I'm not looking forward to any of it once we get past the crossover event this week. 

 

If Ray turns out to already be the Atom, coming into Starling City (perhaps attracted to both the potential resource material at QC and the existence of a now well-liked vigilante/hero) but he's improving what he began with, then I might be OK with Ray/The Atom's stuff.  But if it's 100% Origin story, then no.

 

Because that means that we're dealing with 2 origin stories that are NOT Arrow's, in one season.  Focusing on both of those inevitably means far less time devoted to Arrow and his immediate team and family.  That's the minimalization of 3 other very key characters in favor of Laurel (who has not clicked in 2 seasons) and Ray (whole new character on the show).  And even Roy's story seems to be either rushed (he's good at archery - when did that happen?) or stalled (archery skills aside, what's next for him?)

 

The show seems to have forgotten that it is Arrow.  Supporting characters, including Felicity, serve to support the main & title character.

 

If multiple origin stories was the intention, then I don't understand why it's called "Arrow" rather than something more ensemble-sounding.

 

The shiny new toys pattern is, IMO, taking the joy out of what's happening. 

[Danny Franks]

I think it is the momentum which Barry can build up, through his super speed.

 

That effect looked super cheesy....Barry the point of the Salmon ladder is to do it at normal speed, topless (sweaty is optional), in front of Felicity. I hope it comes across and a slight mocking of Oliver, I love when he is affectionately teased, about shit he take seriously.

 

Between Ray Palmer and Barry I'm really missing Oliver/Sally. (Is Sally a parallel for Felicity????)

 

 

 

 

Since the 2-parter ends in Arrow I think they will show that Oliver is going to win in Arrow vs Flash. You don't need super speed or a super suit to make you a super hero.

 

Oliver needs a win of some sort, this season is way too down on him for my taste.

 

Does Oliver even do the salmon ladder any more? I'm sure that's been one of the many complaints of the season, that he hasn't been seen doing that, or any other training. Perhaps his win is when they unveil the new, even more difficult and muscle-displaying regime he's devised, which makes the salmon ladder look like a childrens' climbing frame.

 

Ah, who am I kidding, it seems like you're right in pointing out that the writers are just trying to grind him into the dirt, as far as they can. So he can be the woobiest woobie that ever woobied. Reminds me of when Nathan Fillion said he loved to see his characters fail. And when Joss Whedon, more astutely, said it was great to see your heroes fail and then get back up and win. Seems like the latter part of that is what's lacking, so far.

[Morrigan2575]

If multiple origin stories was the intention, then I don't understand why it's called "Arrow" rather than something more ensemble-sounding.

I don't think that was the intention. I think (without any real knowledge, just opinion) that Arrow was successful and well received and The CW and WB/DC wanted more. Last year we had one backdoor pilot (Flash) and if the talk at SDCC is anything to go by Suicide Squad was a hidden/potential pilot (which still might happen). I know that Pedowitz is still interested in a Supernatural spin-off and potentially another Arrow/DC Comics spin-off.

I think Arrow is a victim of it's S1 success, TPTB are now using Arrow as a test/launch pad for future shows and cannibalizing the show when that happens (network and production attention gets focused on the new toy).

This season it seems, Arrow is being used to test an ATOM spin-off.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Kordi]

What, so now they're even regressing back to 'Oliver takes things too far and is generally too grim!dark for his friends to accept'? Didn't they deal with that shit when he decided he wanted to be a hero?

Thank you for your comment! I had a similar thought when I was watching the clip. It seems we are back to S1-Oliver. Or rather, we now get to know an Oliver that is even worse than S1-Oliver. Remember Oliver's exchange with Felicity in "Dodger"? Oliver: "It's not how I typically get my information." - Felicity: "How do you typically do it?" Oliver: "I find the person. And then I put the fear of god into them until they talk. But we can try it your way." Now compare this dialogue to the ones that Oliver has with Barry in the clip: (i) Barry: "You tortured that guy?!" - Oliver: "I interrogated him." (ii) Barry: "I thought you are supposed to be a hero?!" - Oliver: "We decided that it would be on my terms." [note to Oliver: No! YOU decided that!] Think about this: We go from an Oliver who put "the fear of God" into others to an Oliver who explicitly tortures others. Furthermore, we go from an Oliver who at least was willing to try it Felicity's way to an Oliver who stubbornly insists on doing things his own way. Oliver is clearly losing his humanity to a hitherto unknown extent. Someone might try to explain this drastic change by pointing out to Oliver's loss of Felicity: "Oliver is his better self as long as she is around him. Now that she has moved on, we see personal regression on Oliver's part". I can buy this explanation only to a certain degree . I don't think it can fully account for such a huge character shift within such a short time. To be honest, I am slightly annoyed by this new Oliver. Well, more than slightly annoyed.

 

Edited November 30, 2014 by Kordi

[Morrigan2575]

The problem here is that they haven't really set that up. As recently as 307, you had Oliver doing his best not to hurt Cupid. Oliver showed compassion because she was messed up and, when faced with being too late (with Felicity) he threw a bit of tantrum then went to a family dinner. So, how/when did he start to lose his humanity/Oliver to the Arrow?

The issue gets compounded by the lighter tone in 108 with Oliver cracking jokes (nice mask) and even having coffee with Felicity after meeting Iris.

I know something bad happens to someone we care about in the middle of 308 but since no one dies (that we can tell) what could prompt Oliver to go back to S1 Hood? At this point the only thing I can see is that the plot needs it, probably to set up Oliver leaving with Ra's in 309.

Unfortunately, (again) I think Oliver is only leaving in order for the EPs the to have a reason to put Laurel in a suit. So basically, everything is being directed by a bogus plot. Rather then having organic character driven plots they're sacrificing the characters to service the next plot.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

 It seems we are back to S1-Oliver. Or rather, we now get to know an Oliver that is even worse than S1-Oliver. Remember Oliver's exchange with Felicity in "Dodger"? Oliver: "It's not how I typically get my information." - Felicity: "How do you typically do it?" Oliver: "I find the person. And then I put the fear of god into them until they talk. But we can try it your way." Now compare this dialogue to the ones that Oliver has with Barry in the clip: (i) Barry: "You tortured that guy?!" - Oliver: "I interrogated him." (ii) Barry: "I thought you are supposed to be a hero?!" - Oliver: "We decided that it would be on my terms." We go from an Oliver who put "the fear of God" into others to an Oliver who explicitly tortures others. Furthermore, we go from an Oliver who at least was willing to try it Felicity's way to an Oliver who stubbornly insists on doing things his own way.  this new Oliver.

 

Except IMO opinion it is not a new Oliver in that clip.   In season 2 well after Oliver and Felicity's try another way conversation, Oliver when he was tracking down the doll maker deliberately shot the guy's attorney in the shoulder to get information.  He shot Roy in the leg to stop him from investigating on his own.  That is just two examples off the top of my head.   Oliver made a promise not to kill, but he never made any claim that he was giving up using violence and/or physical force to get information.  

Edited December 1, 2014 by MsSchadenfreude

[calliope1975]

 Reminds me of when Nathan Fillion said he loved to see his characters fail. And when Joss Whedon, more astutely, said it was great to see your heroes fail and then get back up and win. Seems like the latter part of that is what's lacking, so far.

 

This so much. For some reason, TPTB just love to break Oliver. That's all fine and good (except no, no it's not) but they're not good at building him up again. It's been said many, many times that it's a wonder this guy hasn't been institutionalized. His mother was murdered in front of him, what, 6 months ago? I suppose we did get to see him get it together in Unthinkable, but one episode later, they're murdering Sara.

 

If Ray turns out to already be the Atom, coming into Starling City (perhaps attracted to both the potential resource material at QC and the existence of a now well-liked vigilante/hero) but he's improving what he began with, then I might be OK with Ray/The Atom's stuff.  But if it's 100% Origin story, then no.

 

I think I would be happier with this idea that Ray was already the Atom and just using Queen tech and Felicity's brain to make a better suit. I don't want or need to watch his origin story. Get your own show, dude.

 

Since Barry's attempt at Sally involves CGI, I can't even take it seriously. My respect for SA and CL for actually working that thing when I can barely make it on an elliptical will always outweigh some digital computer work. Yes, I know it's just for some sight gag, and I shouldn't take it so seriously. Don't care. Don't insult Sally, Barry!

[statsgirl]

At this point, I'm trying to be optimistic and say that the Arrow portion of the cross-over is supposed to show Team Flash that their up-to-now light-hearted approach to being vigilantes isn't the reality and things are darker and more violent than they appear.

 

Unfortunately, (again) I think Oliver is only leaving in order for the EPs the to have a reason to put Laurel in a suit. So basically, everything is being directed by a bogus plot. Rather then having organic character driven plots they're sacrificing the characters to service the next plot.

Yeah, I think that's much of the problem this season. Between Laurel's origin story, which cost us Sara, and Ray's origin story, which is affecting Felicity and turning Diggle into Pandarus, and little Diggle, Felicity or Roy on Team Arrow, it's a big problem.

 

I hope Ray gets his suit fast.  Or at least we see the evolution on screen.  This way is just a mess.

[Kordi]

Except IMO opinion it is not a new Oliver in that clip.   In season 2 well after Oliver and Felicity's try another way conversation, Oliver when he was tracking down the doll maker deliberately shot the guy's attorney in the shoulder to get information.  He shot Roy in the leg to stop him from investigating on his own.  That is just two examples off the top of my head.   Oliver made a promise not to kill, but he never made any claim that he was giving up using violence and/or physical force to get information.  

Thank you, @MSSchadenfreude, for pointing this out. You are right about this! It seems that I have somehow repressed my memories of these aspects of Oliver's "investigation/ interrogation methods", because I expected his moral and personal progress to be faster and more extensive than it actually was. (Wishful thinking on my part!) IMO morally reprehensible actions like torturing somebody is beneath a true hero. It's unworthy of him. I don't want to say that a hero has to be a strict pacifist who refrains from using any sort of violence under any kind of circumstances. Nevertheless, a true hero should adhere to the same moral standards we can expect of an honorable member of police or military forces.

 

Apart from this, I still think that there is a real change in Oliver's attitudes from 3x07 and 1x08 to 3x08, as Morrigan2575 pointed out: In 3x07 we got to know a compassionate Oliver who did his best not to hurt Cupid, and in 1x08 we will see an Oliver who cracks jokes. However, in 3x08 we are going to watch (again - as you explained) an extremely dark Oliver whose actions are very questionable from a moral point of view. What accounts for this recent and drastic change? Morrigan2575 suggested that this happens "because the plot needs it". At the moment I'm inclined to agree with this opinion, but it makes me sad.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Kordi

[Danny Franks]

This so much. For some reason, TPTB just love to break Oliver. That's all fine and good (except no, no it's not) but they're not good at building him up again. It's been said many, many times that it's a wonder this guy hasn't been institutionalized. His mother was murdered in front of him, what, 6 months ago? I suppose we did get to see him get it together in Unthinkable, but one episode later, they're murdering Sara.

 

It seems like their way of 'building him back up' amounts to just having him not really react to what's happened, and then slowly go back to behaving like Oliver. There's no pay off, no emotional consequences that I've seen. Losing Tommy made him decide to be a better man. What has losing his mother made him decide? What has losing Sara made him decide? What changes has he made as a result of those two deaths? In a show that claims to "always look for the Oliver in any story", if he hasn't changed as a result of those deaths, then they shouldn't have happened.

 

And I'm sure that he's behaving the way he is in this crossover just so they can contrast Barry's light, fun demeanour with Oliver's forced dourness. Also, by the looks of it, to enable conflict between them. So yeah, plot over character.

[BkWurm1]

 It seems that I have somehow repressed my memories of these aspects of Oliver's "investigation/ interrogation methods",

 

Lately the show hasn't done much in the way of showing an ongoing investigation where they are slowly piecing the puzzle together.  They go after people, have fights, maybe get a clue or a answer which they then give to Felicity to track and go back to concentrating on everything but the detective work.  The show doesn't really have mysteries like it used to. The Dollmaker episode was creepy as hell.  I miss that kind of storytelling sometimes.  It doesn't have to be all the time but it feels like there is so much stuff in each episode that is going on that isn't important to the story being told that pieces that are important get left out.   

Edited December 1, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Kordi]

What has losing Sara made him decide?

I thought Oliver's "I don't want to die down here" (3x02) summarized what he had learned from Sara's death (AND from Felicity's reaction to his way of dealing with it). And I interpreted Oliver's interaction with Thea in 3x03 as an important result of his new insight. (“... if we’re not together, then we’re not even really alive. You’re my family. And even if you don’t need me, I need you.” [note: This is one of my few favorite S3moments!]) My hope was that this positive development would continue throughout the season. But after moving one step forward, Oliver is now moving two steps back. I know that no psychological progress is simply linear. There are always setbacks. However, IMO this show is just getting too melodramatic. (I entirely agree with Tom+Lorenzo on this: http://tomandlorenzo.com/2014/11/arrow-the-secret-origin-of-felicity-smoak/) And I just can't stand the brooding, man-paining, closed-off Oliver any longer. We've had this for more than two seasons now, and I was o.k. with it, because, yes, Oliver was hugely damaged when he returned to Starling City. But if they can speed up the development of Black Canary (because TV), why can't they speed up Oliver's progress? Oh... they have to string it along with more and more plot twists in order to get to a 9th or 10th season?! OMG, I'd rather have five seasons where I enjoy watching the lead character's development than ten seasons where I am loath to even pay attention to Oliver Queen.

[Password]

They just love a hurt, brooding, man paining Oliver. And apparently love HURTING a hurt, brooding, man paining Oliver. It's getting old quick.

[Soulfire]

Regarding the spoiler posted in the SPOILERS ONLY thread:

 

Since they're bringing back The Count (Peter Stormare) and Caity Lotz in the same episode it wouldn't surprise me if Laurel 'sees' Sara through a Vertigo-induced hallucination. Maybe the two sisters even fight one another. How original, Arrow.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Soulfire

[looptab]

At least I hope Sara kicks her ass. #sorrynotsorry

[insubordination]

 

They just love a hurt, brooding, man paining Oliver. And apparently love HURTING a hurt, brooding, man paining Oliver. It's getting old quick.

 

There's always new places to go though. For example, they could have Thea murdered in front of him with some sort of phallic shaped sharp implement  or Ra's could torture puppies and kittens while Oliver is tied up and helpless.

[Ariah]

Actually, I'm dreading what Oliver staying over with the LoA will mean. We'll probably not be getting any scenes in the BC Trilogy, but later on we may get some hints as to what was happening with/to Oliver during that time.

 

I don't think the writers will pass on such a chance to torment him more. (I'm thinking of some brainwashing going on, but I really have no idea what the LoA does to its "Guests"). Still, I'd rather watch three episodes of tormented Oliver than BC Trilogy.

[Morrigan2575]

Regarding the spoiler posted in the SPOILERS ONLY thread:

 

Since they're bringing back The Count (Peter Stormare) and Caity Lotz in the same episode it wouldn't surprise me if Laurel 'sees' Sara through a Vertigo-induced hallucination. Maybe the two sisters even fight one another. How original, Arrow.

yep, how surprising. ..I mean no one called Sara coming back as a hallucination/ghost at all. Really no one figured out they were going to use Sara to prop up Laurel one final time...

[Starfish35]

Regarding the spoiler posted in the SPOILERS ONLY thread:

 

Since they're bringing back The Count (Peter Stormare) and Caity Lotz in the same episode it wouldn't surprise me if Laurel 'sees' Sara through a Vertigo-induced hallucination. Maybe the two sisters even fight one another. How original, Arrow.

Yeah that sounds about right.

[writersblock51]

So the Count is back - but we don't know in which form. Last we saw him, he was incapicitated by an arrow and, I assumed, hauled off to prison.  So either he got out already (another rushed legal story?) or he escaped.

 

Count me among those who think there will be another hallucination story, this time for Laurel and involving Sara.  Also hoping Sara kicks Laurel's ass so that Laurel realizes she's not ready to proect anyone.... But that likely won't happen.

 

Has there been ANYTHING in the spoilers about Laurel trying to find Sara's killer?

[Kordi]

Still, I'd rather watch three episodes of tormented Oliver than BC Trilogy.

Especially if they first take his shirt off, before they torture him or do anything to him... Sorry... couldn't keep my mouth shut/ my fingers still (on the keyboard) :-)

ETA Some clarification: Normally I would consider a comment like mine to be indecent and inappropriate: Tormenting or torturing somebody is disgusting and repulsive, and watching a torture scene in drama on TV should never be something you find pleasant or entertaining IMO. However, after an overdose of look-how-much-Oliver-had-to-go-through I can't take the show seriously anymore - at least with regard to scenes in which Oliver suffers physically. Such scenes leave me cold, or rather, while watching them, I restrict myself to admiring Stephen Amell's work out achievements.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Kordi

[Danny Franks]

Sara will tell Laurel that she's got what it takes to be a hero, just when Laurel is truly doubting herself. And if I was watching, I'd throw something through the television.

 

It's getting to utterly farcical levels now, how desperately they're trying to prop up this failure of a character. Laurel never even gave a shit about Sara when she was alive, so why on earth would their be any emotional resonance to a drug-induced vision of her telling Laurel she's fabulous? It worked with Tommy for several reasons. One, people liked Tommy (okay, they like Sara too). Two, people like Oliver (ah, here's where it falls apart). Three, people like the Oliver/Tommy friendship (oh, yeah, there's torpedo number two). So good luck with this one, guys. Not even sure if I'm talking to the writers or the audience, there.

[looptab]

 why on earth would their be any emotional resonance to a drug-induced vision of her telling Laurel she's fabulous? It worked with Tommy for several reasons. 

Assuming the Vertigo still has the effect of bringing to the surface one's greatest fear, I doubt hallucination!Sara would tell Laurel she's awesome. The contrary, I think. So Laurel can prove her hallucination!sister how wrong she is, because she's actually a badass, of course.

[Morrigan2575]

If this was any other show the natural resolution of this stupid story is that Laurel sucks at being a vigilante. She has a run in with Vertigo and hallucinates Sara, who kicks her ass and forces Laurel to realize she's just copying her sister and that to be her own person Laurel has to find out how she contributes best. Which, based on history is by working with TA but on the legal side. so Laurel goes back to being a DA after realizing there are other ways to being a hero besides putting on a mask....but noooo, Comics!

Edited December 1, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Password]

I'm still lost as to why Laurel wants to be a vigilante so I should probably get off this bus.

If this was any other show the natural resolution of this stupid story is that Laurel sucks at being a vigilante. She has a run in with Vertigo and hallucinates Sara, who kicks her ass and forces Laurel to realize she's just copying her sister and that to be her own person Laurel has to find out how she contributes best. Which, based on history is by working with TA but on the legal side. so Laurel goes back to being a DA after realizing there are other ways to being a hero besides putting on a mask....but noooo, Comics!

With you.

[tv echo]

Regarding using Arrow to do origin stories for other superheroes (in addition to being a test for spin-offs)...

 

The EPs have to fill up 22 episodes this season.  Doing additional 'origin' stories also uses up some of that time and they don't have to come up with more ideas for Arrow-related stories.  It's a lazy way of storytelling - introduce new characters and use the comic books as 'inspiration' for their stories.

Edited December 1, 2014 by tv echo

[Kordi]

The EPs have to fill up 22 episodes this season.

Does Season 3 have 22 episodes or 23 like Season 1 and 2?

[writersblock51]

Regarding using Arrow to do origin stories for other superheroes (in addition to being a test for spin-offs)...

 

The EPs have to fill up 22 episodes this season.  Doing additional 'origin' stories also uses up some of that time and they don't have to come up with more ideas for Arrow-related stories.  It's a lazy way of storytelling - introduce new characters and use the comic books as 'inspiration' for their stories.

I get that but it's mind boggling that those origin stories need to be so independent of Oliver.  He's missing in present day for 3 episodes.  On his show.  I'd much rather watch Oliver do pretty much anything during those 3 episodes, even if it's just filler stuff in January. 

 

I also think Sara's story worked pretty well because she came in as fairly established with her skill set, her motivation and her boundaries.  Even the Huntress was set on her course, though Oliver tried his best to convince her to try another way.

 

So that's 2 origin stories that had the roots of their respective origins shown off screen.  I'm fine with that.

 

It's the start from scratch, become a superhero in less time than it's taking Oliver stuff that I don't like - and my argument applies to Roy as well as Laurel.  And I'm only slightly mollified in Roy's case because he's clearly in mentee-mode with Oliver yet brought some basic fighting skills and easy to explain backstory in with him. 

 

Laurel's is completely from scratch as well as being a 2.0 version of one that the show already did.  I think I'd be able to deal with her arc better if she was going to become someone NOT BC, like Manhunter.

[tv echo]

Does Season 3 have 22 episodes or 23 like Season 1 and 2?

I'm unsure about the number - 23 is probably right.  I want Arrow to be about Arrow as well.  I was criticizing the EPs for using the introduction of other superheroes as an excuse to mine the comic books for ideas rather than coming up with original ideas on their own.

[Guest]

So The Count is back and Laurel will probably have a similar reaction to vertigo that Oliver had in 301. Riiiiiight.

 

I am still watching the show called Arrow, right? Because the way things are going they are shitting all over their main character, not giving him an ounce of happiness, and making the season all about the origin stories of The Atom and BC. I'm so tired of this tbh. 

[catrox14]

I'm bugged by the general idea of Arrow seemingly drifting away from being about Oliver. I think it's fine to do the crossovers but it feels like Oliver is getting the shaft in the long run.

Edited December 1, 2014 by catrox14

[SonofaBiscuit]

So The Count is back and Laurel will probably have a similar reaction to vertigo that Oliver had in 301. Riiiiiight.

 

Well if we're doing parallels to episode 301, can Laurel's storyline in "Canaries" end the same way that Sara's did in that episode?  Please and thank you. 

[Chaser]

I was really excited when they first annouced The Count and the actor playing him, but I was disapointed in the final product. They really didn't use him to his full potential. I don't have much hope for his next appearance. Also, not a fan of re-using a storyline they already used with Oliver.

 

If the drug makes you see your greatest fear and I'm assuming that Laurel sees Sara, what does Laurel fear?  Becoming her sister (I thought that was what she wanted) or failing her sister (pretty sure Sara wouldn't want this life for Laurel).

 

Personally, I would prefer the heros come in fully formed because this is the Green Arrow's story. However, I would love to see a really twisted villain orgin story.

[SmallScreenDiva]

If this was any other show the natural resolution of this stupid story is that Laurel sucks at being a vigilante. She has a run in with Vertigo and hallucinates Sara, who kicks her ass and forces Laurel to realize she's just copying her sister and that to be her own person Laurel has to find out how she contributes best. Which, based on history is by working with TA but on the legal side. so Laurel goes back to being a DA after realizing there are other ways to being a hero besides putting on a mask....but noooo, Comics!

 

I don't want to hope too much but EP interviews have made me wonder if this is not exactly what they're gonna do. Laurel will try being a vigilante, fail miserably and realize she can do more good on the legal side of the law -- and away from Team Arrow.

[DrSpaceman10]

I don't want to hope too much but EP interviews have made me wonder if this is not exactly what they're gonna do. Laurel will try being a vigilante, fail miserably and realize she can do more good on the legal side of the law -- and away from Team Arrow.

 

This is what I'm thinking too. That way people who want her to be BC will be somewhat satisfied and people who don't want her to be BC will be somewhat satisfied. Maybe they'll even hint that she could be BC again in the future to keep it open-ended.

 

For me, it doesn't make a difference whether she's BC or not because I find her character boring and one-note and after three seasons that's not going to change.

[catrox14]

I was really excited when they first annouced The Count and the actor playing him, but I was disapointed in the final product. They really didn't use him to his full potential. I don't have much hope for his next appearance. Also, not a fan of re-using a storyline they already used with Oliver.

 

If the drug makes you see your greatest fear and I'm assuming that Laurel sees Sara, what does Laurel fear?  Becoming her sister (I thought that was what she wanted) or failing her sister (pretty sure Sara wouldn't want this life for Laurel).

 

Personally, I would prefer the heros come in fully formed because this is the Green Arrow's story. However, I would love to see a really twisted villain orgin story.

Didn't we get the twisted origin story for Malcolm Merlyn?

[Chaser]

I view Malcolm Merlyn as a fully functioning villain when he was introduced; his motives were all background. I want to see someone start as a good guy then descend into madness (not just be injected with it either).

 

I guess I'm thinking something like Lex Luthor in Smallville.

[benteen]

I get that but it's mind boggling that those origin stories need to be so independent of Oliver.  He's missing in present day for 3 episodes.  On his show.  I'd much rather watch Oliver do pretty much anything during those 3 episodes, even if it's just filler stuff in January. 

 

I also think Sara's story worked pretty well because she came in as fairly established with her skill set, her motivation and her boundaries.  Even the Huntress was set on her course, though Oliver tried his best to convince her to try another way.

 

So that's 2 origin stories that had the roots of their respective origins shown off screen.  I'm fine with that.

 

It's the start from scratch, become a superhero in less time than it's taking Oliver stuff that I don't like - and my argument applies to Roy as well as Laurel.  And I'm only slightly mollified in Roy's case because he's clearly in mentee-mode with Oliver yet brought some basic fighting skills and easy to explain backstory in with him. 

 

Laurel's is completely from scratch as well as being a 2.0 version of one that the show already did.  I think I'd be able to deal with her arc better if she was going to become someone NOT BC, like Manhunter.

 

Yeah, I don't like the whole "become a hero in half a season" and both Laurel and Roy's characters are guilty of that.  When they introduced Cupid last week, I was annoyed at another person who became a vigilante in the space of six months.  But at least her background as a SWAT team cop made the physical aspect much more believable.  That doesn't explain how she became a crack archer in less than six months though.  Being good with a gun doesn't mean you can be good with a bow and vice versa.  At least not in so short a time.

[Morrigan2575]

Roy's journey was massively sped up but I disagree that it was 6 months. Taking to Bitterness thread.